Podcrushed - Breaking stigmas with ADHD specialist Dr. Sasha Hamdani

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

The gang sits down with Dr. Sasha Hamdani, who weaves together her personal experience growing up with ADHD and her professional experience as a psychiatrist to upend some fundamental stigmas about ADHD. And it’s not all business — Sasha tells stories of starting a riot in her classroom in fourth grade and biting her water polo teammate mid-game. Follow Podcrushed on socials: TwitterTiktokInstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada And that's kind of at its base what ADHD is is a dopamine and noraphenephrin disregulation issue. You have enough of it. It's just not being utilized in the right spot. So that's where you get some hyperactivity and you get some inattention

and difficulty regulating energy. Everything becomes a regulation issue, including emotions. I don't know why I pointed at you. Sorry. Hey, go. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Mostly so you could tutor Penn and Math. I was only struggling because I was placed ahead too early. So today's guest will help us think about sort of, you know, a lot about ADHD, but she also gets into stigmas. And I was recollecting sort of my own middle school childhood experience. And I was trying to think about whether I was stigmatized for anything.

And I talked about it in our host episode. the biggest one that stands out is food. I brought food that looked really different from what everyone else was eating. But a funnier one, this was an elementary school. My school was uniforms only, but like a few times a year, they had something called casual day where you could pay to not wear your uniform. And this was, yeah, it was like a fundraising thing that the school would do. Okay. Yeah. And this was like a huge deal for everyone at school. It was like a fashion show. Like it was a very, it was very important to everyone. And my mom when I was little would dress me. And all my classmates would come in like jeans and cute t-shirts, which are

like fourth grade and my mom would put me in these really frilly flowery dresses with like white tights i was so i was so out of place my mom would not yield like to her i was a little lady and this is how i needed to dress and i was stigmatized for that i don't want to invalidate that but that's so cute yeah looking back it was cute but at the time is that is that a is that a stigma i feel like that was just a normal response to something strange Or that was ostracization or being ostracization of the woman? I think for sure people were like that weird girl. It just added to me being like very weird.

I'm imagining like Little Bo Peep. It's kind of like that. I'll see if I can dig up a picture. Yes, please. The old Little Bo Peep stigma. So many have to live through it. They'd only let me hang out with sheep, lambs. Yes, if your mother would only let you hang out with sheep,

It would have been better. Well, we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, but I, sheep, no, I am a Baha'i, and I grew up as a Baha'i, my family are all Baha'is. And growing up, I really felt embarrassed about being religious and actually, like, enjoying that part of my life and having, like, a really strong spiritual faith. element in my family and I would hide that from a lot of my friends and yeah I was just I felt like there was a lot of stigma around being religious and I understand why but it definitely impacted me for sure no I can relate to that my I think mine was when I was probably about 17 I think I just kept on waking up with like every day there would be these dots of blood in my palms and it just became more and more and I was just I was bleeding no are we are we oh we're not talking about

stigmata oh I've grossly hmm I'm gonna have to back track wait then I really thought you were telling the truth I mean I don't know what stigma is Sophie looked horrified like why are you shaming him and I was like I really hope that he's going to Satan like I hope Satan is the next Oh, I should have done that I should have gone And so what I did was You know, I mean, yes, I'm behind now I might be religious

But what I did was I got on my knee And I prayed to Satan No, then I thought So I listened to the promo Of you on Sean Hayes' podcast Called the hypochondriactor Hypercondriactor

Yeah, hypocondriactor And Available in all platforms You tell the story About how you had to be revived As an infant and I was so shocked by that story. You'd never told that.

Resuscitated. I guess that's true. I guess that's true. Because Revive sounds like a cultural revival. You had to be brought to life with music and dance. Well, first of all, so I actually told Nava. I was like, Nava, we were talking about how Penn doesn't share much with us. And we have to find out stories of his life from other podcasts.

Yeah. And I told her, yeah, I texted Penn the other day that, you know, I had heard this thing. And she just asked, did he respond? And I just wrote, I just wrote, guess. Did I not? No. And then I was like, if you looked at my phone right now, if you scrolled, it's just all blue. And I look like his stalker because it's just like five scrolling pages of like blue, blue, blue, not a single gray.

However, however, you get on some of our group threads. It's not always the same. That's true. But when you do decide to jump in there, you're pretty engaging. Yeah, let's get to it. Our guest today is Dr. Sasha Hamdani, a board-certified psychiatrist and ADHD clinical specialist, who you might have seen on social media. She's got Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and she breaks down stigmas and provides accessible information about mental health.

She also founded the non-profit world harmonyonline.org, where she advocates for human kindness. She's the CEO of Focus Jeannie, which is a company behind the mobile app for Focus, productivity, and ADHD education. She also authored the book, self-care for people with ADHD, and this came out in January 2023. But most recently, she was selected to participate in the health care leaders and social media roundtable, and this is at the White House. So she gave a talk alongside the vice president regarding the crisis of health care worker burnout. This is pretty cool.

We couldn't be more interested and excited to have Sasha on the podcast today. You're going to love it. Stick around. We will be right back. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time, everything it can be for my little boy, Louis. Nom Nom does this with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures, and ingredients.

Nom Nom offers six recipes bursting with premium proteins. Vibrant veggies and tempting textures designed to add excitement to your dog's day. Pork potluck, chicken cuisine, turkey fare, beef mash, lamb, pilaf, and turkey and chicken cookout. I mean, are you kidding me? I want to eat these recipes. Each recipe is cooked gently in small batches to seal in vital nutrients and maximize digestibility. And their recipes are crafted by vet nutritionists. So I feel good knowing its design with Louie's health and happiness in mind.

serve nom nom as a complete and balanced meal or is a tasty and healthy addition to your dog's current diet my dogs are like my children literally which is why i'm committed to giving them only the best hold on let me start again because i've only been talking about louis louis is my baby louis you might have heard him growl just now louis is my little baby and i'm committed to only giving him the best i love that nom nom nom nom's recipes contain wholesome nutrient rich food meat that looks like meat and veggies that look like veggies because, shocker, they are. Louis has been going absolutely nuts for the lamb pilaf. I have to confess that he's never had anything like it and he cannot get enough.

So he's a lambie laugh guy. Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. A 15-year-old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer. I used my front teeth to saw on the rope in my mouth. He's been convicted of murdering two young women, but suspected of many more. Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these cold cases.

They could be a victim. We have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dull Valley, breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. Okay, Sasha, you, before we sat down for this interview, you have shared with us just a few tidbits of your life story. You said, I was diagnosed with ADHD in fourth grade

after starting a riot in my classroom. Yeah. And then you, from what I had, understand, you say that fast-tracked you into getting evaluated and treated, and then it led to, I guess, like this climactic burnout in medical school. So we're going to get a lot of your life and the work that you do, but I'm just want people to know. Let's start there. Fourth grade, you're starting a riot. What is that, what does that mean? I mean a riot? Yeah, no, a legit riot so i um fourth grade substitute teacher i got and like i'm horrified to tell you this right now

right because i respect what teachers do so much uh especially having kids in my own like god bless their profession yes but yeah got kids to stand up on their desks and start chanting and i thought it was hysterical at the time and like literally that day teacher was like no no go and get evaluated Wait, Sasha, what were they chanting? I don't remember. I don't remember. And it wasn't anything mean. It was like noise.

So like a true sociopath, you just have no recollection or remorse. I can't. I blocked that. It didn't bother me. You're a villain. You're tackling? You know what? Don't paint me into that.

I was fourth grade. I was working through some stuff. No, no, no. Of course. Of course. Yes. I'm assuming it was compassionate because I think my parents were pretty scared at the time, right? Dealing with like this possibility of a diagnosis.

And I think that the team. teachers probably handled an explosive situation relatively well to the point that they'd got my parents to a spot where like, oh, okay, maybe there could be something medical going on. And so, yeah, my mom is a pediatrician and got me in to see one of our partners and, like, no questions about it. They were like, yep. And so I was started on medication at that point. And was ADHD, like, as in the cultural lexicon as it is now?

No, right? Oh, my gosh, no. No. And I won't tell you how old I am, but it was a long time ago. And it just, it wasn't on anyone's radar, both diagnostically. I think the reason it got picked up is just because I presented like what a boy would have presented. I was super hyperactive. And that was like the poster for ADHD.

But I think if I had presented, like, a lot of females do with inattentive symptoms, just kind of daydreaming and kind of minding my own business, it wouldn't have been picked up. Do you remember that time well? And was there sort of, was there like a before getting diagnosed with ADHD and an after getting diagnosed with ADHD for you? Yes. So here's the weird thing. So, yeah, it was a clear demarcation because I remember, like I liked school. and I was a good kid, but I, I struggled because I would get in trouble all the time. I would be loud and unintentionally, I'd get excited about stuff and I'd be loud.

And then once I was on medication, I just, none of that happened. I just sailed by school. It wasn't really hard. I really started to enjoy learning. I would like do extracurricular stuff, really, really liked it. And that just continued smooth sailing. And then I got into med school right out of high school. So then I just kind of kept doing what I was doing

And it was great I was on this My parents were a little bit scared about the stigma behind it And so they told me I was on a vitamin Like something to help me focus I know that's like So you didn't even You weren't able to call it ADHD at the time

I didn't know I didn't know that that was the word behind it They were like this is going to help you focus This is going to help you in school And I was like okay I thought it was a Flintstone's vitamin And it did. And it did.

And I was like, this is great. And so I continued to take this all throughout. And then med school was the first time I was by myself. And I did not take my vitamin. And it did not go well. I just like kind of, like I remember sitting in my neuro class. And like they. Of all classes.

Of all. Yes. Yeah. Of all classes. And they, I don't know if they did this. But like they would post grades by like number. And so you'd like go up. And you'd see, like, the numbers.

And so it would be anonymous, but, like, you'd go down. You're looking at numbers and you're like, oh, this one person got 32 percent. And that person was a fool. And then you're like, oh, that person was me. What happened? And the reason I did so amongst many, but I wasn't taking my medication, and I literally forgot to turn over the sheet of paper. So I did the first half. Wow.

I don't even want to talk about this anymore. It was horrible. It was one of those things where, like, I went to my teachers afterwards, and I was like, this was a stupid mistake. I'm so sorry. Let me do the test in front of you. And they were like, no, if you learn from this. It was horrible.

So not taking your medication when you started med school, was that intentional? It was just you didn't even realize it was something that helped you that much. And so you didn't know you needed to? So you still didn't know you had ADHD? In medical school? that's there's irony there and like it was the first time I was by myself so I was learning how to like do stuff on my own and be by myself and um they so I was doing just super badly I full on thought I had a stroke I was like I'm I don't know what's happening so my parents at that point were like this isn't going and I were good come home let's and they told me over the phone and I was like I don't have ADHD what are you talking about and they're like no you do and I'm And that vitamin that you were supposed to be taking is actually Ritalin, like. Wow.

So I was like, okay, what? Yeah, was that like almost an identity crisis or something like that? I think so. To be honest with you, like I've thought a lot about this because initially at that moment in time I felt very betrayed. I was like I felt like I was being like drug to perform and like I just, I didn't understand. why they wouldn't have explained it to me. And I think later, once we got past that, because it took me a while to get through that.

Because then after that, I was like, I'm not going to take medication. Like, I don't think I have this. There's no way. And it took me a while to kind of navigate through that. And then I got to a spot where, like, I actually had a conversation with them, and I was like, what was your thought process?

And they were just like, we didn't understand it. We didn't know how to explain it to you. And we didn't want you to feel like this was like a huge stigmatized thing. Because at the time, like for like just general population, it was super stigmatized. I think to some degree it is still stigmatized, but we're talking about it more. But it was it was very, very stigmatized then. And it was something that people only thought of in boys and traumatized boys. And so it just, they were like, I had no idea how to explain that to you.

And we should have done it better. We should have like learned about it and how to explain it. But we didn't know. And I was like, okay. I always associate Adderall with ADHD, but you said you were on Ritalin. So could you share just a little bit the difference between the two and if there are withdrawal symptoms from someone who gets off? Yeah. So Adderall and Ritalin are both neurostimulants.

So they are highly stimulating agents by releasing Norepinephrine into the brain. Now, how they do that is just different mechanisms, but they both basically do the same thing. So they're releasing Norep and effort into the cleft. more of it usable. And that's kind of at its base what ADHD is. It's a dopamine and noraphenephrin disregulation issue. You have enough of it. It's just not being utilized in the right spot.

So that's why you get some hyperactivity and you get some inattention and difficulty regulating energy. Everything becomes a regulation issue, including emotions. And is there, are there withdrawal symptoms? When people get off, is there any kind of withdrawal or sort of side effect of getting off typically? So when we talk about the clinical sense of withdrawal, like with a stimulant, there is withdrawal in terms of your brain is used to a level of stimulation. And then when you are coming off of it, you have this physiological withdrawal, but it's short-lived, right? Because the stimulant, even the long-acting ones, aren't in your system for days and days and days.

But it's, in my experience, I would say, and what I've seen clinically. it's significant enough when people get off of this medication because of the lifestyle change and because of how your brain is functioning. So you feel like you can do less. So you've given us a little bit of a window into your home life, like the way your parents were trying to actually, I think quite kindly, like not make you feel like you have a diagnosis. Yeah. But first, because this is a show where we go back to earlier phases of life and this will help set the scene. Got it. Yeah, just like, what was your home life growing up?

I know that you grew up first generation. Yeah. Pakistani, is that right? Yes. And Muslim. Or at least your parents are Muslim. I don't know. I don't know now for you.

But can you tell us a little bit about that? So I grew up in Santa Barbara. So like this super affluent, super white city. And like my parents immigrated from. Pakistan and like just totally by just dumb luck ended up in Santa Barbara. Like that's the first place my dad got a job and they're like sweet. It was great. So we ended up there and I think just growing up in that kind of community, which was wonderful

and awesome, but still it made you feel like an outsider because I was. I mean, I didn't see another person of. like any sort of minority till about fourth grade outside of my family but like in the school setting which is weird weird like so then it was just it was it was one of those things that foundationally I think I I think that's part of the reason my parents were so careful about how they approached things with me because I already felt really different and I felt kind of at that young age like okay I'm different so I got to do things a little bit differently So I, when I realized that it was a little bit louder than normal, and I was getting in trouble more, I'm like, okay, this is my role.

I'm going to be like the class clown. This is it. And so that kind of, did I answer the question? Yeah. You're right. This is great. This is really helpful context. I feel like even that connection that you just made now of like possibly the reason that your parents hid your diagnosis from you or kept it from you was.

in an effort to protect you and not further ostracize you when you were already kind of an outsider in your community growing up. So I think that's really helpful to know. We'd love to hear more, please. And I think that just being that kind of sensitive kid who felt like on the outside, I also, when I grew and, you know, learned about ADHD,

things also kind of made sense about why my parents thought that that was a good idea and like having kids of my own understanding how difficult it is to broach certain things. I can understand trepidation around that and talking about ADHD, talking about talking about marginalized populations, talking about feeling different. But I think that where myself and my parents have gotten to at this point in time is how important that communication is, right? It's like I wish we had had better communication.

in a dialogue throughout that process. Yeah. Stick around. We'll be right back. All right. So let's just real talk, as they say, for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it?

But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? you want to be less stressed, you don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder, I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet,

you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so, honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with.

The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i think it tastes great i use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and 8 which is really good for for i think mood and stress i sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible um honestly you you don't even need to mix it with water uh uh and yeah i just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off

plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile whenever and wherever it fits your schedule. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. There are no English translation so you truly learn to speak, listen, and think in your chosen language. The other day I was actually at the

grocery store, and I asked one of the people working there if they could help me find a specific item. And she was like, sorry, I actually don't speak English. She only spoke Spanish. And I was like, if only I, my Spanish was good enough to be able to have this conversation in Spanish, we would be sorted. And that's where Rosetta Stone comes in. I really need to get back on my Rosetta Stone grind. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese, and more. Rosetta Stone is the go-to tool for real language growth. A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages so you can learn as many as you

want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Podcrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash podcrush to get started and claim your you 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. The first few weeks of school are in the books and now's the time to keep that momentum going.

I-XL helps kids stay confident and ahead of the curve. I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning. Whether they're brushing up on math or diving into social studies, it covers math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. With content that's engaging, personalized, and yes, actually fun. It's the perfect tool to keep learning going without making it feel like school. I actually used I Excel quite a bit when I was teaching fifth grade. I used it for my students to give like extra problems for practice or sometimes I also used it to just check on what the standards were in my state for any given topic in math or reading or writing. It's just a helpful tool all

around for teachers, for parents, for students. I honestly do love it. Studies have shown that kids who use I-XL score higher on tests. This has been proven in almost every state in the U.S. So if your child is struggling, this is a smart investment that you can make in their learning. A single hour of tutoring costs more than a month of IXL. Don't miss out. One in four students in the US are learning with IXL, and IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. an impact on your child's learning get iExel now and podcrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off iXL memberships when they sign up today at iexl.com slash podcrushed visit ixl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price

sasha you pen mentioned that we had done we had have a little prep on you and one thing that you shared which i thought was so funny and i and i it is kind of a sharp left but I want to ask you about this. You said, I played water polo in high school and was terrible. I was ejected my second game of the year for biting someone because I thought I was drowning. And I want to know, what is the correlation between biting and drowning? Oh, it's pretty clear. It's in the amygdala. And listen, no, you can, you can pick it up here, right? Are you, Dr. Badgley? First of all, that was more for personal color for you guys, but okay, I will go into this. She's like, why would you bring that up on the podcast?

Okay, so I was in water polo. I had no interest in water polo. So why were you in water polo? Because I was so bad at swim that they're like, you have to work on this off-season. Wait, isn't water polo harder than swim? Yeah, so they were like, you need to prepare for swim by being in water polo. Was that the school? Who said that?

Or your parents? No, the school. The school was like, okay, if you want to be in swim, which we don't want you to be in either, because I just hid my parker the whole time. And I was like, please, no one calling me to swim. or do anything. Yeah.

But when they, they were like, you're so bad. You have to do like this off season also. Okay. And I hated. I hate it. I couldn't get my hair into swim caps.

It was like a cone head. I didn't like the little caps. It was all awful. Anyway, so I, when I went in to play certain games, I think I played like one season. And there was,

I'm not even kidding. Like, I was in ninth grade. This girl. was, like, built like a full-grown woman, like a just huge woman, like so, like just muscle and woman, just huge. And was pulling me, you're looking at me like you're not believing me. I'm telling you this is what's happening. This is, I don't, do I have disbelief face?

Yeah, you do. Okay, Sasha, that's just his face. Okay, are you invested? Uh-huh, yeah. Pulling me underwater, underwater. So I'm like gasping for breath. And that's typical, right? In water polo, they just, they play pretty dirty, right?

I mean, I guess. And she had, like, really sharp nails. Like, afterwards, when I got out of the thing, she had shredded my bathing suit. Oh, my goodness. So, basically, she's pulling you down. She's pulling me down. And you're in pain. And you're in, like, swallowing water.

You're bleeding into the water, and there might be sharks. Yes, all of that. And then you, and then you basically just, like, you bite her so you can get. You're in remedial swimming already. I'm, like, trying to egg beat her. She's, like, sitting on top of me at this point. So I'm like getting out bitter Just like get off my case for a second

I get called on it I get kicked out of the game And so I'm like embarrassed And I'm out of the game I'm naked because my suits falling off That's crazy And then my mom again The pediatrician took care of that girl

And I had to go apologize to her Oh wow I'm actually glad I asked you Because for some reason in my mind When I read that I was like she thought she was drowning And to stop drowning She needed to find someone to bite

Like I was like couldn't put it together But this makes a lot of sense Yeah I was more I was more in that camp as well I thought like it was I don't know It seemed like you were putting it all on you In the story

But this is This wasn't a story for this It's like a survival It's just a survival tactic We made it a story Sasha just as on an aside Wait last week I was at a dance class Where this girl kept cutting me off

And I think I'm gonna bite her If she does it again I'm telling you You may get ejected But it's extremely effective Yeah. Bite everybody. Your mom will make you apologize to her, though.

So sticking in that time of middle school, I wanted to know what were your first experiences, Sasha, around love and heartbreak in that time. Yeah. So I will tell you that around that time I was prone to crushes like you would not believe. Like, I would get my heartbroken every other week. Because I would just, I know, it's so sad. But I was, I was kind of awkward. I was, you know, already had that kind of complex that I was different. And I would just love so hard on people.

And so I got to the point where it was getting to a spot where it throughout medical, medical that's middle and medical school they kind of continued into medical school where like it wasn't you know I would I would get into these situations where I would have big crushes I would get my heart broken and I feel like that I mean developed my personality into like kind of I don't know and I talked about this before kind of being the class clown but I kind of did that I was just like okay If I'm not going to be the girl that every dude is going to fall in love with, I'm going to be the funny girl. I'm going to be the best friend. And that actually suited me really well.

I was happy in that role for a long time until it stopped working. Wait, when did it stop working? I feel like it stopped working when I got into a spot where I was like, I think I do want a relationship and then realized I was just like, woefully unprepared because I was like, I never let myself. be vulnerable after medical after medical school it's a really hard word middle middle school

I just kind of didn't want to go down that road anymore because I just I mean I got stomped on yeah it's like a form of protection yeah

so I was like I don't really want to do that and then when I realized I do want to have relationships it was just like a very steep learning curve I was like oh this is how we're doing it this is awful okay and then it just took a while

to kind of figure out how to be vulnerable in a way that I could learn from it instead of just demolishing me. And that took a while. Well, it sounds like you're talking about a time that you're still quite young. Like high school you're learning this or medical school you're learning me? It was a medical school. Well, my medical school, my medical school was really, like, I started medical school when I was 18. Okay.

Wow. Is that uncommon? Yeah. It's weird. Yeah, that's uncommon, right? Yeah. Because you start usually after you've been in... After undergrad.

Oh, after undergrad. Usually after under... So you started four years early? Yeah. Yeah. Man, all right. I'm just really curious because now you study ADHD. Yeah.

And I just really want to know, like, you've lived through it. You've studied it now for a while. How do you now see this... Like, where does it come from? And how does it manifest as your... So you kind of went from like heartbreak to heartbreak to heartbreak to heartbreak in middle school which I'm not saying is ADHD

but I'm saying all these underlying kind of parts of you yeah they all kind of are one thing in a way so you so you think quickly you love quickly you're moving quickly you're just right and and so

I don't know like at what point did you start looking at yourself and you're like I want to know more about this honestly from the time my parents told me. Okay. So like when we, so initially I was in that spot where I was like in total disbelief

if I was like, there's no way. And then I was like, I'm going to focus as much as I can and I still couldn't do it. Like I was still falling behind. I was still like things were just so much harder than they were from my peers. I was watching them sail by without any sort of difficulty. And I was like, okay, there's, like this wasn't my issue in, in like high school. So why is this so hard now? And so then my parents, what I felt like they did really well is my dad was just like, you know what?

Just come home and you don't even have to worry about this next test. Don't study for this next test. Focus on ADHD. Learn everything you can about it. So he like took me. And you're how old now? Like 19. Okay.

Yeah. So he like, we were on Google together. He's like, let's go to the library. We went to the library. We were looking and searching and trillions. and trying to find answers and looking for something that looked like my brain

and by the end of that I think I spent like five or six days doing that and like you know and my dad and I were like playing off each other and I'm like Dad did you know about this?

And he's like oh yeah look at what I read about this and it became this like immersive experience where I think a lot of the shame part of it went away and I was like oh this is medical but there's some incredible parts

where your brain is moving fast and has all this possibility of all like wonderful things Like, you just have to learn how to optimize it. My dad's an engineer, and he's all about, like, optimizing efficiency. So he's like, we just have to harness this. We can make this work better. I was like, okay, let's do this.

That's amazing. And so I think that was just such a wonderful, number one, total bonding with my dad, which I did. Yeah, sounds really nice. It was great. It was great. But it was also just, like, a very, I think, I think it got me to a spot. It was like a little crash course in ADHD where I began. to see this as this multifaceted thing that wasn't what was wrong with me,

but just like a part of me that could be utilized and explained and like I got to enjoy parts of it after that experience. I feel like that's so inspiring and just like amazing parenting. Congratulations to your dad. A plus parenting. Yeah. I just feel like there's so many applications of that. That's so cool.

He pivoted. He had previously made this decision that personally as someone who, who was a special ed educator, I would question that decision to, like, not share with your child or to create a culture of, like, secrecy around a diagnosis, but they, then he pivoted when new information came to light and when, you know, you came to him. So I think that that's really cool. Like, the, the fact that you can change your mind, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that also that fell on the, like we were learning more about ADHD and it was also less stigmatized. And I think that everything all came together and worked out at the right time.

I think that like it was hard for me in the beginning. But I think having that just like little pocket of time with my dad to learn about ADHD, it changed all of it to me because I was like, I can work with this. This isn't, this is doable. I can deal with this. which is nice. He gave that to me. It's beautiful. And that's what you've done.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is. I want to talk now about what you've done. So you have a book that you've just published. You have this website. You have an app. I mean, you've like, you've like spoken with the vice president. You've done so many incredible things. You're thriving. And I want to know sort of how you got there.

I mean, we've heard a little bit of it. But how you got there and sort of what you're doing now that you're the most excited. about um how i i don't know how i got there i i i don't know i don't know i think that a lot of those doors opened up to me because of social media um and so around 2020 i just had my son i was doing telehealth at that time with patients and they would hold up their phone to the camera and be like this is why i have ADHD and i'm like oh that's dumb that's not a thing that's not a real reason so then I was like, okay, there's a lot of bad stuff and bad information on social media. So I initially started putting out content to counter some of that information.

And then, like, everybody in the history of the world, you just get kind of sucked into that. Yeah. And so I started creating more. And then I started gaining traction. And then I had Simon Schuster reach out about writing a book. And so I did, which was weird. It was hard. It was hard to keep organized. But I wrote a book about self-care with ADHD, which was like everything that I wish someone had told me in medical school. Medical school, if you will. But I wish that, so it's not just like, it's like, how does your brain work? How is this different? What can you do to optimize? And so like, there's so much that I was calling my dad. And I was like, do you remember when we talked about this? And he's like, yeah, put it in the book. And so, and then I was like, I just wish there was a better way of getting information out to people about, you know, just ADHD and how to optimize your brain and actual usable productivity tools.

And that's when I started creating FocusGenie, which is the mobile app, which is kind of like du lingo, but for ADHD. And that's what I'm most excited about. It's usable productivity tools. It's gamified, so it's interesting and engaging. and it's been impossibly difficult to do. Making an app is so hard. Oh, I can only imagine. Oh, God, it's so boring and so hard.

But it's like, I'm working with a great development firm to kind of get this. And my sister, who's like her brain, I don't even, I don't even understand how our brain works. Her brain works like in a grid, which is the exact opposite how my brain works. And she is working with me. And she came on. And so we've just been doing this together. So it's been just like good bonding. It's been fun.

And we'll be right back. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm and save big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50. that's right, $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I am currently eyeing their silk miniskirt.

I have been dying for a silk miniskirt. I've been looking everywhere at thrift stores, just like all over town. But I just saw that Quince has one on their website. It is exactly what I've been looking for. So I'm just going to click, put that in my cart. By partnering directly with ethical top-tier factories, Quince cuts out the middlemen to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands.

It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com slash podcrushed for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash podcrushed to get free shipping and 300 265 day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louis. Nom Nom does this

with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures and ingredients. Nom Nom offers six recipes bursting with premium proteins. vibrant veggies and tempting textures designed to add excitement to your dog's day. Pork potluck, chicken cuisine, turkey fair, beef mash, lamb, pilaf, and turkey and chicken cookout. I mean, are you kidding me? I want to eat these recipes. Each recipe is cooked gently in small batches to seal in vital nutrients and maximize digestibility. And their recipes are crafted by vet nutritionists. So I feel good knowing its design with Louis' health and happiness in mind.

serve nom nom as a complete and balanced meal or is a tasty and healthy addition to your dog's current diet my dogs are like my children literally which is why i'm committed to giving them only the best hold on let me start again because i've only been talking about louis louis is my beat louis you might have heard him growl just now louis is my little baby and i'm committed to only giving him the best i love that nom nom nom nom's recipes contain wholesome nutrient rich food meat that looks like meat and veggies that look like veggies because, shocker, they are. Louis has been going absolutely nuts for the lamb pilaf. I have to confess that he's never had anything like it and he cannot get enough.

So he's a lambie laugh guy. Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. You mentioned, well, Nava mentioned that you were, you, like, got to talk with the vice president and present with the vice president. Yeah. I can imagine them that was nerve-wracking, probably. How do you think having ADHD impact how you prepare for something like that, whether it's that or something other kind of like big presentation? Can I tell you something?

Yeah. It probably helps. because your brain moves so fast that I feel like getting prepared for those things if you're truly interested in something like this. Like I was so interested and engaged in this podcast that like you can just dive in and get a whole bunch of information and deep dive and you just like keep going down these rabbit holes and you get a huge amount of information in a small period of time. And so if there's something that really excites me or inspires me, just like when I was talking about health care burnout with the vice president and stuff like that, because they gave me two days to prep with all the vetting and all of stuff, they were like, I'm not sure if you're going to go.

And then two days before they're like, okay, book a plane. And I was like, oh, wow. And I showed up. And it was fine. It was good. To be totally honest with you, it was wonderful. and it was, like, very incredible to be around those, but to be totally real with you.

I kind of felt like it was, I was just, like, acting a role. Like, we had to do a hospital tour. Yeah. I'm sorry. This was, well, I'll give me an example. So we had to do this hospital tour. And I had to practice with, like, stand-ins for the vice president and Surgeon General.

And during that time, it was all for, like, when we turn this corner, the camera is going to be on this side, so you need to be on the left of the vice president. When we go over here, you need to step out of the way because there's going to be a zooming camera and they need both of your faces. And I was like, like, I'm not super good at rights and lefts anyway. So this was, like, so much to deal with here. And so it was just, like, I felt like a lot of it was, it was incredible. wonderful and I'm so thankful for that experience but at the same time it just wasn't what I thought it

would be sure yeah I mean that's yeah that that sounds consistent with you know going into that level of yeah what would you call that not it's not even politics it's what is that something else you're in the power center I don't know but like I had this talk it was like a big deal and then right after the talk I had to interview them for um social media stuff so I'm interviewing them And we're like, okay, well, we have to go back into, like, your hold room. They were saying that to the vice president. And then, like, some security guard just picks me up off of the ground and, like, moves me over and I was like, I can walk. You just reflex.

You're like, I've been here before. I know what this is. I know. I'm not doing to laugh about that. No, I didn't bite him. Okay, I have the most random questions, Sajai. but I keep thinking it, so I'm just going to ask, does Kamala Harris smell really good?

She seems like she would smell amazing. So here's a deal. When I did this, it was like peak COVID. You lost your sense of smell. No, I didn't. Don't put that out there. I didn't expose it. No, but we all had to wear masks.

So I don't know. I don't know why I have to know that. If it helps, I think she looks like she smells good. That she does. She looks like she smells amazing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So, anyway, there's that. Honestly, I feel like we could talk for two hours about ADHD because, you know, I don't know that much. Yeah. We've actually talked a little bit about it on this show. We had another guest, Victoria Padretti. I know. I mean, you know a lot about this far more than we do, so I don't know where to start. But there's like, there are these gendered dimensions of ADHD.

Like, it manifests differently in boys and girls. So males get diagnosed. three times more likely than females, three to four times more likely. So pretty significantly more. Do we understand why? Are they not three to four times more likely to have it? They just get diagnosed more. It's just they get diagnosed more.

Wow. And so there's not like, you know, it's hard because you don't really know the number of undiagnosed people, so it's hard to get a good statistic on that. Right. But in terms of why, I think it's because they present as hyperactive. There's the ones disrupting classes. Starting riots. Yes. They typically, when you look at a presentation of an inattentive type, you're getting a lot of internally focused symptoms. So inattentiveness, difficulty organizing things. They might have a difficulty with losing things. And, you know, you're having a lot of just internal stuff that's bothering you significantly, making your life more difficult. But it's not like you're ruining a class.

or you know you're not you're not making things absolutely intolerable for everybody else so that you generally get passed through just for yourself yeah so that's kind of like a little bit about the gender stuff now in terms of just ADHD in general and the like metamorphosis of like just how it's been changing how it's been viewed by the public I think that in terms of validity of diagnosis I'm biased I think it's pretty valid because I feel like it is my diagnosis and it's what I have poured a lot of myself into. But I think that there's also, like with a lot of people who have done work in this area, they've been looking into, how does trauma affect ADHD? How does trauma affect other mental health diagnoses and things like that? And I think there is some validity to that trauma absolutely worsens everything. Yeah. Everything, everything, everything. Trauma being a wound, I think that's important in terms of, like, real significant thing that shapes how you move forward.

So, yeah, if you're looking at trauma in that context affecting everything, I think it absolutely affects how your ADHD presents. Now, what I would say in where I disagree and differ a little bit is I think that it truly does come from a genetic basis. And I think that it's being passed on from family to family generation to generation. And so I think there is a genetic predisposition to that that I don't think is explained by trauma. I think trauma can make it worse, but I think this is something you're probably born with. And epigenetics might be the bridge, right? Because I say with epigenetics, like trauma is passed down for seven generations. So, like, who knows?

You know, we're like the first person. I feel like I tried to spell epigenetics on a word processor in the last couple of years. And it did not, there was no version of it that was correct. So I was thinking to myself, like, is this a word that is not yet in this outdated word processor's dictionary? Like, because epigenetics is not an old. But is it something that people disagree on? Like some people believe in it, some people don't. No?

That's what I thought. About the controversy behind epigenetics. Okay. Guys, Sasha was like a master spelling bee player? I don't know what to say. I really thought that pen was. I was using that as a segue to ask. I was like, wow, that is some, like, fine crafting to...

I know, yeah. Well, let's do it. Let's do it. I like it. It's a good segue. Yeah, I'm really good at spelling. Sush, I want to ask you a bonus question. Bonus question.

I just want to know what was the hardest word you had to spell in your middle school spelling me. So the word I messed up on is shammy. Do you know how to spell shammy? Shammie. Do I know? Can you use it in a sentence. No, it's not. What is shammy?

Sorry. Like a shamwow? Are we talking about it? What's a shamie? It's like a shamwale. It's not even a word. Is that a word? Oh, it's a word.

It's not fair to you. It is like a rough or it's like a soft suede thing used for wiping. Okay, wait. Is it S-C-H-A-M-M-Y? It's I-E at the end, right? No. It's O-I-S at the end. Yes.

Yes. Oh, that's right. I'll use it in a sentence for you. No, just kidding. And do you know why I mess it up? You would get this, like, booklet of words that they could potentially use. And so my mom would go through it every, like, when we were preparing at nighttime. And she pronounced that word, chamois, the entire time.

I would pronounce it, too. Yeah, you're like, the French, chamois. Shamois. And so, like, then they said shammy. I was like, what the shit is that? What is that? I don't know what that is. At that age, did you say your mother in bed?

What the shit is that? Maybe. Mom, what the shit is that? She's like, got to give this girl more magic medicine. We've got to get her more. She's swearing at us in bed. Get her the Flintstone vitamin. I do want to ask you one more question about ADHD.

Yeah. Earlier, you mentioned that part of why your family might have, like, hidden that diagnosis has to do with stigmas. Yeah. And Penn had sort of entered that by saying that it's more in the lexicon today. So I wanted to ask from your perspective and what you've seen, is there less of a stigma? Could we go further in eliminating the stigma? And if so, how can we do that? How can we support people as family members, as community members?

as teachers who get that diagnosis. Yeah, I think there's for sure still a stigma. I think there's less. There's less. And I think that as we talk about it and expand these conversations a little bit more, I think every time we do that, we help reduce stigma. There is a uniqueness that comes from ADHD that makes your brain work in a different way. And I think that can be very poorly understood and it can be misconstrued as you're being

lazy, you're being reckless, you're being thoughtless, you're being, you know, it's all these volitional components that you're not. But I think once you start to learn and explore more about ADHD and the basis in how your brain actually works, it helps reduce stigma. If you could go back

to your 12, 13 year old self. Yeah. You know, grappling with is relatively new information. Or, no, you weren't. I wouldn't have known yet. Taking new vitamins. You were fixed. You were fixed by the magic

medicine. Oh, yeah. By your little Flintstone vitamin. So you were sharp here. Yeah.

I was on it. What would you go back and say? Yeah. So I thought about this question because again, I wasn't kidding.

I deep dive into all these podcast episodes and I love them. And so I knew about this final question. I think what I would say is that I would

remind myself that time progresses forward. You just get so fixated on like things are never going to change. I'm going to feel this way forever. I'm going to nothing's going to get better. Everyone's going to remember this embarrassing moment for the rest of my life. And I think that if I had understood and contextualized that time is going to keep moving,

people are going to change, you're going to change, priorities are going to shift, that everything is going to get a little bit easier. And that acute pain and discomfort that you feel will get better just simply by time moving on. I just wish that I had had, I think my parents did a pretty good job. They were a little bit confused by me in middle school. But like I wish that every middle schooler knew that in terms of just like, it's hard.

That time is hard. You're weird looking. People are mean. It's just like it's weird and it's a hard time. And so time just goes on. Just rely on that because things are going to get better even if you think they're not. There's something about your face that makes me want to say medical. That's one I've not heard.

Stitcher.