Podcrushed - CRUSHMORE Book Launch (with Phoebe Robinson)

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

OUR BOOK IS OFFICIALLY OUT! To celebrate the release of "Crushmore: Essays on Love, Loss, and Coming-of-Age", we sat down with Phoebe Robinson and a few hundred fans in NYC to chat about the process and stories behind the book. Check out Crushmore everywhere you get books and audiobooks, or click here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993   🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter   ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava   TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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New York New York! New York! Hello, hello. Oh, my gosh. Thank you, sir, for standing up in the front and wearing that tight white t-shirt. I'm here for it all.

Thank you. How's everyone doing tonight? Good. Everyone survived the trains to get here. Yes? I am so excited to be here. This is, I'm Phoebe, by the way, hi. Thank you for saying hi back. Yeah, give it up for Phoebe Robinson, everybody. Thanks, Penn, or Benjamin, as I like to call you. I'm, I am a voracious reader. I love to write books. I've written three books, and I like to interview people a lot. And interviewing people who write books is like my

favorite sort of Venn diagram thing because I really get to nerd out. And I met you guys 2022? Sounds like it, yeah. 2020, I went on their beloved

podcast, pod crush. Oh, hold up. I just looked over and saw that. Yes, bitch. I saw that and I went, oh, okay. All right. All right.

I don't know where that was printed. We love a fan. Anyway, but I just fell in love with you guys. Your chemistry just felt so real, and there's so many times when you do a podcast or something that's hosted by more than one person, there's clearly one person trying to dominate and take all the light, and you're like, relax.

What are you saying? I won't name names but what I felt was just such like warmth and tenderness and you guys really like each other and you're equally funny and you have all these different qualities that together just makes the fucking magic

and so when I was reached out to you to moderate Creshmore which is out today get it at bars and nobles get it at indie bookstores If you want to get it at Amazon, we won't love it, but we will accept it. You can order it direct from the publisher. Yes.

Simon and Schuster. We want this to be a bestseller. And when I immediately was like, yes, I'm happy to moderate. And then I read the book. And I just was like, it's so sweet and tender. And the way your stories weave in together is just delightful. And I think all of us have, you know, had. growing up in middle school years

in particular where you're just like I don't know if I like myself and it's just really to me I was like oh I wish this book existed when I was like 13 you know and I think that's just high praise for a book like this

so I'm very excited to be sitting down with the three of you to talk about how this came to be and other juicy stories and then we have audience questions that you guys wrote down that I have in my butt and I'm going to pull out my pocket. I'm just trying to warm you guys up.

You guys seem a little tight, and it's okay. I understand. I know I'm not Oprah. I know I'm not Reese Witherspoon, but I matter. Okay. Okay, so one of the things that I really love about this book is the way you guys weave your stories together. And this is for each of you is your first time writing a book. Yeah.

And I was very much like, how did they figure out how to do this so well? So can you sort of walk me through, did you guys pitch this as a book? What are you approached as a book to do this? And then how the writing process for three authors into one book baby? Well, I think transparency is always the most interesting. So the truth is we were approached by, we were approached by like a book agent who was initially like doing what within the world of agents is like you do not do this because you know I'm ripped by CAA and they and and they're like no we represent you in all domains

somebody approached you write a fucking book we do that for you and and then because at that point I've never even spoken to the literary side of things I'm an actor you know I have no brain and um more thoughts but I have a lot of feelings and um And so, yeah, so then they hooked us up with our agent there, who we love, by the way. And then they were like, all right, so let's let's let us, like, actually do this the right way. Let's go out to the world of publishers. Let's have you write a sort of temp book. And so to be honest, I think back to that first temp thing that we did, I don't know how you guys,

mine was rough. Mine was real, real, real rough, and I can't believe we even got a publisher, frankly. Why are you such a bad writer? No, just kidding. Because I said it, because I have no brain and no thoughts, but only feelings. And so it was just like, I was insecure for reasons I can't identify, and I'm writing on giant paper and folding it up and mailing it, which was the problem. No, basically, like, I mean, I think it was, for me, it was the beginning,

and I think this might be true for all of us. writing the thing that would go out to even say it's a, you know, a smattering publisher is, hey, this is something what the book would be like. That was the beginning of this. The point of this, possibly being an interesting answer, oh my God, is, is, it was the beginning of something that we couldn't have anticipated. Yeah. I know I didn't. I was like, okay, let's try, right? Yeah, and I think the question on all of our minds was like,

how do we take our three childhoods, our middle school coming of age eras, and weave them together because they're so different each one of us. And I think we managed to do it because we took some themes that we felt

were universal. Love, loss, family, friendship, and you know, Nava has had a really major loss in her life. I haven't, and so I had to figure out like, well, what does loss mean for me? what have I lost in this life?

And it was an essay that looked completely different. So we all had like very different entry points, but we took these themes that were universal. And I think that's what helped us make it somewhat cohesive. We started out thinking it would be six specific themes. And then we realized as we started, like maybe we'll stick to for universally across the board, like maybe three of them.

And one of them was loss slash grief, you know. That's a potent thread. and it's one that we always, you know, for all of the levity in our podcast, we, you know, we also like to have conversations that go as deep as we can. You know, we do like to talk about death a lot. That's one of those things that, I mean, I think it's less and less taboo, but you have to do it the right way, you know? Neva? I feel like they said it all.

Okay. Okay. Well, I was, I want to hear from you. Come on, Phoebe, next question. No, as you were, I just want to say, who has started reading the book already? One person, awesome, cool. I can see a couple of hands. No, it's okay. You still got time. Why aren't you reading in the dark right now? You don't need to pay attention to what's going on up here. Just open your books, and then there'll be an exam afterwards. No. but what struck me

first of all I just want to say Diego yeah fuck him forever I know here's the thing he says a thing that I don't want to spoil unless you want to talk about it but I think that moment for me

it's just where I feel like every girl has gone through that moment of like okay I like this person and I think that they're either going to like reveal their feelings or say something like super nice to me. And they say something that just sort of like sticks to you for like long after they say it and it just go do do do do do all with their life.

And so I think you captured that moment perfectly. And so I'm sort of wondering what is it like to go back in time and sort of be like, oh, this really shitty thing happened that kind of like affected me even longer than I thought it did. That's such an interesting question because Diego is still a really good friend of mine. Okay, unfuck him forever. But I've never, one of the themes in the book, if you read it, is that I struggle with avoidance, which some people who work with me are like, no, you don't.

But in professional contexts, maybe not, but in, like, personal relationships I do. And in, like, anything remotely romantic, I extremely do. And so I've, like, there's, like, a lot of things that are in the book that I've, like, to this day, never have. had a conversation with him about. So he, like, doesn't know that he, like, made an offhand comment. I feel like I want to spoil it, but it's hard to say this without spoiling it. But, anyway, he made an offhand comment about a body part, but not the one that you would think, not a traditional one.

And it, like, haunted me forever. Just the untraditional body part. Traditional body part. And it gave me a complex about a body part that I never thought about. And for the rest of my life, I think about it. And, but I was actually reflecting with my sister about it. I just told her, like, three days. She was like, have you called him and told him what's in this book?

And I was like, no, I sent him a text. And I was like, hey, I don't think you should read this book. I don't think you're going to like it. And he was like, no, I'm by the way. He's like, I'm downloading it on Kindle. Like, I'm definitely reading this book. And anyway, this answer is too long-winded. But basically my sister and so we started reflecting about the things in the essay and that comment.

And we were like, I wonder how many people we've done that too. Like, I wonder how many, like, throw away comments. Like a thing that I don't remember that I said to someone is like haunting them right now. like probably we've all done that to someone so I don't hold it against him that he said it but I think there's a line in the book where I say basically like I wish I wouldn't have taken it so seriously because I know he wasn't trying to

cut me down or not. That boy doesn't have a mean bone in his body but he wasn't trying to date me and that's what I should have taken from that moment like yeah that's not a boy that's trying to woo you know. It was a great job processing that and being reflected and be like I've probably done it too okay accountability

that's so great that's what it sounds like to really unfuck somebody Yeah, exactly. But I think that's a question for all three of you. Like, I know with my books, I kind of just write whatever, and I don't give anyone any warning, because I don't feel like I say anything that they need to be warned about. Like, if they take offense, whatever.

But did any of you at any point have a moment where you're like, ooh, I don't know if I should write this? Maybe I should give a heads up, or maybe I should just cut it completely. I haven't answered that, but I feel like I just spoke a lot. So maybe you guys go and then I'll go back. Yeah. I also struggle with avoidance and I did not actually I did reach out to one person

who is named first and last real name in the book that's the one person I named that way I know and I did reach out to him after talking with Nava and trying to weasel my way out of it I was like is there a way where I don't have to reach out to him should I think you should and I wrote him a note and I found out he doesn't have Facebook anymore. So he's never going to see it.

So, yeah, I really didn't reach out to anyone. I was like, you know what? We're going to let people read it and see how they feel. So I am actually very nervous. I'll just leave it at that. If you know me, don't read the book. I, so I don't think this spoils it. No, it doesn't spoil it.

But my essay on grief, you know, we sort of had this, like, theme that was uniting some of our essays, grief or loss. Mine was about my first girlfriend from 14 to 19. We were together for, you know, those extremely formative years. And the first week of recording for Podcrest, she died from the effects of alcoholism, 20, 20 years of alcoholism. 32 years old is young to die from drinking. That's like serious tragedy, you know? That's like hard to do. And, you know, that essay is about, in some ways it's like,

that was about like a living loss where her death actually was not the beginning of a process of grief. I'm not sure that it was the end of. it but it was not the beginning and I reached out to the only friend I thought might know something that I didn't who maintained a relationship with her like into the years of adulthood where like I it was it was too painful to be close so and we texted a lot I we never had the conversation because I just felt in the end I was gonna ask for her to co-sign something she can't co-sign she's not her she's not

And so I felt like the responsibility It's interesting when you have When you feel the responsibility to somebody who's passed on You know That's different You know From my perspective There's some kind of relationship still existing

And So I was a little bit like Well you know what's going on here So I'm trying to honor you You know And trying to be honest But that was really tough

There were things I mean you know it's funny Now that's so you have said Like it seems like such a revealing I'm like I left out a lot I really did well I feel like having read it you really do honor her

like I think from everything you've said it sounds like she'd gone through a lot of tragedy but the way you wrote it was I really loved her yeah you know there's a there's a there's a few people I mentioned in that essay to give a to give us sort of a sense of

sometimes how the casual nature of what I mean, we live in an era now where people are so quick to call masculinity toxic and I'm right there with you except for the fact that I wonder if that phrase doesn't help us anymore because

the men who need to learn from it are just like oh, shut up, you know? So I spend some time that essay trying to delicately address how in all of us as young boys there was this sort of like seeds planted

and if they grew in the wrong way we could have become those kind of men. So I felt some of those boys who I don't know as men, and I'm actually not assuming the worst at all, like I actually feel like they are good people and grew up to be good, I kind of was, there was a version I wrote that was more cutting of them, and then I thought, you know, some of them might read this and like, I don't know, like, we were 14, I don't And they didn't really, to be clear, it's not like they did anything. It was just, it was like, yeah.

So, you know, I thought about reaching out to people then, and I just thought, like, I don't know, I'm being as reserved as I think I can be without just not even addressing it. I actually found some of the opposite issue. Like, I found it was hard for me to tow the line, specifically when talking about my family. I feel this all the time. I love them so much.

And they can be sensitive, as most people are. to like anything I say about them. Specifically on the podcast, they'll bring it up. If I say something that I think is totally innocuous, they'll be like, you bashed me on the podcast. I'm like, what? So I feel like I was very careful with my family, and it was hard to like shed some of that.

So I changed names. I tried to be respectful about how I wrote about people, particularly because I know that memories get corrupted over time. I changed names except for... There's the essay about my mom's death. I didn't change. names, but everyone who was part of that experience, I don't think cares, because I barely like mentioned them.

But there's an essay called The Middle, that friend, I left her name, Ariana, and I sent it to her and she approved it. And then there's an essay called Loss about a friend of mine who was my best friend in middle school who died. And I didn't change his name because I wanted it to be a tribute to him. But he died really tragically, and I didn't want to give the details of his death because I didn't want people to feast on that. on that detail and like remember this like young boy's life in a really macabre way.

But I did reach out to his parents because there were like a few details that I included that I wasn't sure they'd be okay with and I couldn't get a hold of them. Like I reached out to my entire class to say if like anybody had his parents' information and no one did. And so I was like very torn about whether or not to include that essay. But in the end I did and I hope I have his parents blessing. But we'll find out. One of the things that I have a question about not only in this amazing book, But also in your podcast, is you guys do share so much about your life,

which I think resonates so well with your audiences and they get to feel like they know you. But do you ever struggle with, like, I wish I could just be like a little more private. I mean, like, just being so open is a part of what this whole thing about. And what is this whole thing, really? Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Don't you feel the same way? You don't feel like you are not private? I feel like I'm private enough like I feel like no one's like I'm not you I'm not you

Benjamin I'm not you know a television sensation so but I it's but in all jokes aside I do really feel like that sort of you want to share and you want to be open but you also want to keep some things for yourself and especially in this world where it's so easy for people to have paras or social relationships with you like how do you just establish boundaries for yourself so that you can still feel like you are you. Yeah. I feel like people are tromping at the bit to learn about Penn. I don't feel like people are that desperate to learn about us.

I feel like people are like, say less. No, that's no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, what we're not going to do, Queen, okay? She's standing up. What we're not going to do is that. We are all powerful. We are all equal. We are all magical.

We are all important. Well, I think maybe, but there might be a refurb. framing where I have a history of like my relationship to that question is different whereas you you know kind of like are starting in the outset here you know it's like we all come to the podcast and we're equals in the podcast and then we have this different kind of history behind us you sort of have the last what four years of of being in this space of like choosing how to share when both of you like you're choosing those boundaries and actually to be honest so what I see with them I see people who are coming from at the very least

healthy family systems where like they something beautiful in this book that you don't get a lot of like in stories reporting from adolescence from the field from the battlefield love and honor and respect for parents

that's earned and it's like it's a really lovely thing so you guys do you come to the table of like trying to think about about what you do and don't share, I think, very thoughtfully and intuitively and probably sometimes wonder why I have a different way of approaching it. Maybe you don't wonder, but I maybe do have a different way of approaching it because I think about it from a place of exploitation, possibly. My relationship to it is different because I've been doing it since I was inappropriately young.

young. So maybe that's the framing of it where it's people might be attracted to an aspect of like celebrity story, but you guys are being you know, your vulnerability

it's like it, I don't know, it kind of has a power to it because it's like, you don't have the same relationship to that. One of the things there's an essay I wrote called I Love Love and I trace like a few relationships I was in and mostly I start with just like you know the younger ones and it's kind of innocent and then I in order to contextualize how I met my husband I get into the

relationship I was in before him and that was way more serious and I had to really figure out how much do I want to share and because I come from a pretty small tight-knit high community I had to I felt like I had to be very careful everybody knows everybody whatever details I give might tip someone off to who this is or what happened and I felt like because of that I had to be very careful and part of me is resentful of that like I just want to be able to share I just want to be able to tell my story like why do I have to be so stressed out about this person finding out and this person's my friend but they're also connected to him and but then I also think like that's also a little bit that's

good to have those like guardrails in place like maybe it's good to have those things in the back of my mind where I'm like worried about how someone might receive it if they can figure out who it is because I don't think we should be toying with other people's stories so much so yeah it's just it's a delicate balance what about you queen can you remind me the question sort of like how the the balance of she like the private yeah private versus sharing um yeah I feel like as a person I'm so open. My inclination would be like, I wish I could share everything, but sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's like it's other people's stories or it can like, you're like mad at someone and then your feelings about the situation changed and they're like, oh, I wish I wouldn't have said it so aggressively. So those are like my guardrails and sometimes I cross them and then when I do I feel bad. But yeah, if it were just like up to me in my like natural state, I would share everything. I'm like in like my friendship. with people, I'm such an open book.

I'm like sharing and I'm like, let's talk and like, here's what happened and like tell you every detail that's the kind of person I am. Yeah, I love that. And also I love your hair. I just want to say. Oh, thank you.

It's so cute. It's just like a nice little, you know, loose little beachway vibe. I'm here for it. I love the fantasy. I'm here for it. As someone who is in their 40s, I'm 41, I,

thanks. Just one person. Right on. The reason I bring that up is because I feel like, you know, when you're growing up and your coming of age, so much of your brain can just get occupied by, like, dating, and that just becomes, like, the main thing. And so, you know, for me, I was, like, very boy crazy for a long time.

And then sort of in my late 30s, I kind of was like, I'm going to de-centremen a little bit and really reevaluate my friendships and really prioritize those. And I feel like the three of you have such a great friendship and great bond. And I'm wondering, like, did you guys also have that journey of sort of like, it's all about romance

or it's all about this, all about that? And you realize, no, like the community that I'm building with friends is that might be one of the greatest love stories of my life, even though that's not how we're taught to look at our adult friendships. Yeah, I wrote an essay about friendship, friends friendship and my journey with it and I feel like yeah I've definitely gone through the same journey that you're talking about where I really focused on my marriage in the early years and like kind of like shacked up and stopped hanging out with my friends in the same way

and stopped like reaching out to them and felt the effects of it like you reap what you sell and and then have come back around to really investing in those friendships And I think one of the things that hit me after writing this book is, like, we are very good about creating good systems for communication and checking in with our romantic partners, but not with our friendships necessarily. Like, there's a friendship that's really, really important to me that I probably would have lost if I hadn't checked in.

I've been like, how do you feel this is going? But I don't think that's so normal, and it can be a little bit hard to do because it's so, it can be awkward. But I think it's important. That's what I've realized, this process. Yeah, I, I, what's being said resonates with me. I think for me, I mean, look, I have newborn twins right now. Like, friends are nothing.

There's no need to applause. There's no need to applaud. But, so I think, yeah, like, maybe some other part of the spectrum of that is, like, rather than romantic love. It's familial love. And I do come from a pretty, you know, broken down, isolated family unit, only child and stuff. It's all in the book. Too long, don't read, Spenta. I didn't even say TLDR.

I said, too long, don't read. Isn't that charming? Very sweet of you. That was so cute. I was like, aw. That's like a little boomer moment that popped in your brain. You know what I mean?

Yes. Yes. So, yeah, I don't have enough, you know, I'm still, in some ways, feel like such a young father. I don't have enough perspective on it to, like, espouse any kind of wisdom, but there's something that I'm building there

that's different from the kind of love you were just describing. And it's not the kind of love that you see. You see it represented in really, like, I don't know, rudimentary archetypal ways like the father in seventh heaven or something pops into my mind

like I don't even know I don't even remember really anything about him no okay it's okay we'll survive the example so you know and I just and I think like I can hear it all I'm just

there's something there's something there that's definitely not what I've seen so I'm having to like kind of learn it for the first time. Yeah. That's a great question, Phoebe. We're the same age, and I feel like in my late 30s,

let her find it. It's okay. It's okay. Yes, I think in my late 30s, I started to be like, no, like no relationships, closing the door, and prioritizing other things. And now I'm sort of like,

maybe let's not like kick the idea of relationships completely the curve like it might be nice to have that but I want to unfuck everybody yeah exactly um let's like be receptive but but like certainly not make it like the central like pivot of my life

and like certainly not like the what's that thing the metric I'm thinking of a different word but I can't think of it out loud pendulum but the thing that sort of determines whether or not my life has value and actually and no I don't know I don't I'm going to be thinking about this.

The bar, the bar, the bar, no. Setting the bar? The process of writing the book was really helpful in helping me realize that I was like not, for some, for a long period of time, I was not allowing myself to enjoy any of my successes or any of the parts of my life that actually were making me happy. Because I was like, but you're a failure. Like no matter what was going, I was like, you're a failure because you had this one goal that you never achieved. So you're not allowed to be happy. It was like a subconscious thing.

but it was like very, like a heavy metal undercurrent in my life. And actually it was in the process of writing of the book. There's an essay that didn't make it into the book because I was like, my editor is going to tell me it's too much of a downer. I've already gone that note a lot from her, so I'm not even going to submit this essay. But I had an essay that was a letter to my 17-year-old self, and it was basically like I had been driving home,

and I was thinking about that essay, like, what am I going to add to this essay today, and I had to pull over on the shoulder of the freeway because I started crying so hard. Because I was thinking, like, what I'm going to write is, like, you failed. Anyway. And then I was like, okay, well, why am I feeling this way? And, like, what did I fail at?

And so I started, like, saying it. I'm like, okay, just say it. Like, you know, say the thing that you think you failed at. So I, like, said it out loud. And it was like, you never got married. You never had kids. You never going to do it. And I, like, allowed myself to feel that.

And then I came home and I, like, you know, wrote it out. And it was, like, such a downer of an essay. But it was so good. I read a draft of it. Really? I think it was in your folder. It was so good, it was so good. But I came around, I was like, well, that cannot be where the essay ends,

because at some point I really did think I was going to submit this to my editor, and I was like, she's going to, it has to be a beat. So then I was like, okay, well, if this isn't what gives your life meaning, like what does give your life meaning? But I didn't mean it. I was just like, well, I just have to submit this to Molly, so what does give my life meaning, if not this thing? But then that actually helped me to be like,

why the hell am I determining that, like, this thing is what gives my life meaning? Like, that's crazy. Like, I have this beautiful life. I have these beautiful people. I have this incredible father. And it really, like, helped me let go of that thing as, like, it's allowed to be a part of the picture. I'm allowed to be sad that those things haven't happened. But it cannot be the single determining factor of whether or not I'm a successful person, a happy person, a valuable person.

And it was really in the process of writing this book that I had realized that I had to always been like, you're not allowed to be happy because you didn't succeed. As a former teacher, I know that teachers move fast. You can't always stay on a topic. and make sure that every single person has completely fully understood it in the classroom. You sometimes have to keep going, but that's where I-XL comes in and keeps your child right on track, building skills at the same pace that they're learning in school. I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning,

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i much prefer being an auntie like that is where i fucking crush it as an auntie oh my god It's just Starbucks and Sephora. It's like, that's all it is. It's so easy. It's so easy. They've got to Starbees? And they're like in it. But I do think, you know, everyone, you, especially, I feel like, I hit 40.

I don't know if it's true for you or other people, but it's like you kind of take stock because you're like, okay, I've had this movie playing in my head of like these markers happening at these certain like moments in my life and check done, check done, check done. And then, like, you realize at 40, it's like life is not about check done. Like, it's just not, that's sort of like an arbitrary pressure that we've been forced to put on ourselves because of society. And I had, like, the same conversation with my therapist. And she was very much like, she was like, I know you want your soul made. Your parents have had, like, a 45-year marriage.

And, like, that's, like, your dream. And she goes, but if that doesn't happen for you, is your life not going to be worth living? And I was just like, well, no, like, and she's like, that's your answer. Like, there's all these amazing things, and I think it's easy to let one thing sort of, like, prevent us from feeling happy about ourselves. So I'm, you know, I'm right there with you, sister. And to all three of you, I do, you bring up the concept of happiness, I do feel like, I don't know if it's an American thing,

but it just very much feels like we always have to constantly be, doing the next thing, like we are not allowed to take stock of what we achieved. We're not allowed to feel happy or proud about what we did. It's always like, oh, I could have done this better, that could have looked a different way. And so I feel like through writing this book and also through your lives, how do you guys feel like you have worked on your sort of path of learning how to be happy in the moment, even if something's not perfect? guys these questions are good

that is an interesting you're an incredible incredible interviewer moderator I read I study I wanted to feel like we are in one giant sleeping back together yeah it feels that way very middle school

I can go first I'll try to be brief this is it sorry I keep telling Phoebe this is a great question I'm not just saying that her questions are so great actually I was thinking about this week I've been looking forward to this week for months and like trying to prepare for it

and buying cute clothes for it and all this stuff and then I was like I don't want this week to pass me by and then it's over this thing that I was looking forward to so I have like a spiritual practice so before I came the night before I said prayers and I've never prayed for this before but I was like please help me just enjoy this week like I feel like this week is going to pass me by

and I'm going to be at CBS mornings and I'm going to be like thinking about the view and then I'm going to get the view and I'm thinking about Drew Barrymore show and I'm thinking about the flight to LA I don't want to do that I want to be present at, like, each moment. I want to be, like, I want to enjoy each moment and, like, taste the sweetness of, like, each fruit for what it is and, like, not be thinking about the next thing. And, like, I want to move through my life that way, too, like, not just be, like, thinking

about the past and, like, trying to relive it or thinking about the future. And, like, honestly, the future doesn't look that great for humanity. So I think a lot of us are like, maybe not think about it. Let's just think about the present. But, yeah, so just even, like, asking for some divine assistance if that doesn't come easily, and, like, maybe it'll come, you know? Yeah. How do you feel, have you been feeling like you can cherish?

Oh, it's been dreadful. No, I've been enjoying, it's been great. I've been trying to enjoy each moment. Hmm. Let's see. I really love that answer. I know, I know, I know, can you, what's the crux of the question? The sort of the crux is, you know, we're so conditioned to never just be content or happy.

That's right, that's right, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, and like whether writing in the book or just living in our lives. So, yeah, there's a few things I'll try to thread together somewhat briefly. Writing the book was interesting because I had to start way past deadline, sorry, Molly, because of my filming schedule for my show, and then we got hit by the person we had planned for the fall of child care, like just dropped out. And we were like, okay, okay, cool.

And basically, between my wife and I was like, I can just keep not writing, okay, yeah, great. And it was, like, extremely stressful. And then it was just this really condensed period of writing where, like, I had to blitz through in this way where, like, I did not have time for writer's block. I did not have time for not liking something. I was just like, oh, my God, it was kind of,

it was like something that I don't yet even have enough perspective on was happening where I was learning how to structure stories, just as a creative who's trying to do that. And then also, like, something about what you're saying. I was like, I was like not letting myself get caught up and just having to, like, drill through. And like, my essays were way different. They went into so many

different places. They were extremely long and they were, I mean, it was like it was all over the place and then finally right at the end, it was like, you know, and it just like worked. And I was like, oh my God, literally, oh my God, I cannot believe that worked. And I completed it. And so I did something that

actually creatively, I can say, you know, as an actor, you're passive. And as an actor, you're, you're, you're, you're, rarely ever responsible for the words you're actually not responsible for hardly anything that's there except for I don't know the way it looks but not even the way it's shot you know so it's a as much as you get credited for as an actor it's such a passive role and that can lead to

I think a lot of actors feel a lot of frustration unless they're working in things that they love and very few actors are working in things that they truly love to be honest you know and like and that's just a numbers thing that's that's simple fact, matter of fact. So writing the book did kind of like I'm accustomed to having this kind of like, yeah, there's the thing I did, you know. And but then I'm like actually actually wait a second, everything I wrote like I feel really good about, you know. And and then when I was reading their essays, I was like, and I feel really good about being alongside these. And

the spirit of it you know so there's something about allowing myself to be proud of something that I think this book has been a part of so that's so yeah so that's

that I think I don't know how coherent that is that's what that makes sense that's what that is this is what me being proud looks like no but it makes sense I think when you have I think sort of what you're getting at is like, especially about like the writing process.

And you're like, I didn't have that much time. So I just had to like get it done. Like I think sometimes if you have too much time, you're like, I can just go off and be self-loathing or I can overthink this and I can do whatever. But you're like, I got to deliver this in like six months or I got to deliver this in three months. It's like your body's like, let's fucking go. Let's get this done. Cut the bullshit. Because we all just carry so much bullshit like over time.

think you just, like, got out of the way of that? Yes. I actually think maybe the essence of what I was, like, I think if I hadn't been given such a, such a, and the deadline wasn't crushing from the outset, because I remember when we, when we signed up for this, I was like, I mean, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to film a season of my show, and I don't know how the hell this is going to work. It's like, all right, whatever. But lo and behold, we get to the end of my season. I'm like, fuck, this is going to be so crazy. And then our shock gear drops out, and I was like, whoa, how is this going to go? And then by the time I actually really sat down, I was

like this is a, yes, a powerfully crushing it was crushing. A lot of words. Yeah, and so I, so I, but I don't think that I would have had the feelings of self-worth to write a book myself otherwise. If there was any leniency whatsoever, I would have found a reason to

overthink it. And that's where, when you talk about our culture, celebrity, ooh, shit. Oh, it makes you feel and think some ways that are not good for you. You know, I mean, it's like, you can seem 98% like you're really handling things well, but then there's this seed of profound insecurity feels like a pathetically small word compared to just the chasm of like self-worth you don't feel you have compared to the completely inappropriate adulation you receive for reasons that have nothing to do with you

and they couldn't possibly have anything to do with you. They couldn't. There's not a way it's possible. So therefore, if you're at all conscious of that, it's like, oh, I don't know how to contain. There's not a therapist alive, my friend. Yes, therapist. Have you ever been famous?

And for how long, my friend? I was born in the shadows, Batman. you merely play in them you know and so it yeah so there's something that happened here that it might be the beginning of just a different

different process creatively for me overall that might be quite healthy really sweet this is not to do with the book necessarily but overall this feeling of like enjoying the moment I feel like when I was pregnant with my daughter who's now two

right away when I found out I was pregnant which was early very early very early because I just like can't wait for things normally like I just my mom says I always have to have something on the calendar I always have to have something to look forward to and very early I was telling people and some people were like should you be telling us and I they're like you know what you know what if something happens and my feeling was kind of like if something happens something's going to happen and then I will have missed out on the opportunity to share

this really exciting joyful news with you and I'll only have sad news to share with you and why would I skip that? Why would I miss out on the happy news if the inevitable is going to happen no matter what? And so I try to remember that, try to recall that feeling in other aspects of my life too. I like that.

Because I think, bless you, I think I heard someone sneeze, but I do feel like sometimes we can just be afraid of something good happening. It's always like, what's the bullshit gonna be? Like, how it's just gonna fall apart? And it just, it takes you out of the moment.

And I feel like that very much was a very teenage fee sort of like, I was always like, yeah, nothing's ever gonna go my way. And so, that's like how it move about the world. Okay, we have like a few minutes before we have audience Q&A, which I'm very excited about. Great handwriting. Seriously, I also was like, oh, I think I might need readers.

So that was a fun thing to learn about myself. Okay, I have two questions. First, how do you guys feel just about this book being out in the world? Because I know, like, for my first book, it felt like a little, is this real? Like I spent this time writing this thing and rewriting and talking to my editor. You look at like the cover art and like everything is just like in a good. computer and then now it's like a physical thing that you can smell and

hold and so how do you guys feel about being published authors are you proud? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure, yeah, sure, sure. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's been a, it's not

been a day, so I don't have perspective on that yet. You know what I mean? Like I, like it is you know what I think probably would happen? That would feel like if I saw it in a bookstore, which I suppose we're going to see in the next couple days, because I did go to the basement of a bookstore to sign copies. I'm going to be 55 years old, and I'm still going to be kidding.

I did go to a bookstore, but it was not up yet. It was not out yet, you know? So I have not seen it in a bookstore. And I think that that will be certainly, yeah, a different experience. But, yeah, I really don't have a perspective on it yet. It still feels like you were saying. I don't think it feels real. Maybe when somebody's like, hey, I read your book or I listened to it, more likely.

And, you know, something about it, da-da. And then I'll be like, oh. I say this at some point, maybe in the acknowledgments of the book, when I acknowledge Penn and Nava, and say, like, they forced me to do this, basically. I think I tried to get out of it by being on maternity leave. and I was like, it'd be really weird if we wrote a book and you weren't. It's true. That conversation you did happen.

But I did not, do not consider myself a writer. And so it was really, there was a lot of like stuff I had to and still have to work through being a published author. I'm like, you're a writer girl. I don't belong here. You a writer, girl. Your name is on a book. You are a writer.

Thank you. Thank you. But a friend, I was telling him about a book. Navita, a friend of mine, one of my best friends, closest friends, known him for, since I was 19, 18, he wrote to me and he said, do I even know, he started listening to the book. He said, I'm realizing, I don't think I even know you. And I think that makes me feel excited about the book being out in the world. Like, oh, there's things I think all three of us have shared that even the people who are closest to us, who I consider him like one of my

best, best, best friends. And we haven't talked about middle school in the way that I share about it in the book. So that makes me feel excited. And to be alongside them, I've told Nava this before, I'm like, I'm really proud of your guys' essays. So I'm excited to promote the book for your guys' essays. But I'm excited about what I shared, too. Do you need some water boo? Water's not going to do it for me. No, it's just, you know, it's a lingering, lingering call. I know, but it'll help to lubricate things. It's fine. Maybe I should be a mom. My honest answer, I'm really excited for the book to be out in the world.

I hope people read it. I hope they enjoy it. I hope it does well. But my really honest answer is that I was very nervous about reviews. And I hate that I felt that way, but I was like, I'm not going to Google them. Not worth it. I actually hadn't thought about that in a while. I was sort of, I was like losing sleep.

I was like, what if the reviewers hate it? what if they're like, these people only got a book because pen badges is a celebrity and this book is garbage. Well, there's part of that that isn't true. We wouldn't have gotten the book and, you know, I'm not even saying like, I deserve it. I'm saying it's, you know. So my honest answer is that the first review came out for Publisher Weekly and it was very positive.

So now I've been sleeping again. I'm like, okay, great. I'm like, I'm not going to look for any other reviews. There's a positive one. I don't need to be any other reviews. And it also, it doesn't matter. Like, honestly, because you wrote a book. Most people say they want to write a book and don't fucking do.

it. So to me, I'm like, I'm not anti-reviewers, but I'm like, it's so much about like the journey to going from, this is a kernel of idea to like, this is my book baby. Like, that is truly the only thing that matters. Like, you should be immensely proud of yourself. Thank you.

Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's true. Because even, you know, Navan I have a production company and we're not like purposely leaving Sophie out. It's something that we started before, you know, it's like And I think as people learn to just get better and better at structuring stories, like I feel like I learned a lot. But then there's this other part where it's like, well, then it goes out into the world

and it like is compared to any other existing literature possibly. And that's where the feelings of inadequacy come in. But I mean, it's like, yeah, it is, it's very cool that we did it. We climbed a certain mountain. We did it. we summited it and and but yeah there will be reviews and we'll let's be real we're going to read them so that we'll see how that goes I'll just understand you're going to read the first book book I like would go on Amazon I would read every view and I was like it's and they would be nice

but it would be like you know 40 great ones and then one fucking cunt and like that that will be the one that I would focus on and then I would talk to my parents, my mom would be like, did you see that bad? Like, she would get annoyed. She would get annoyed about, and we were sitting here and getting annoyed about this one person and said one shitty thing and laying that drown out like all the people that

are going to love the book. And I feel that way with this book, I'm like, I don't even everyone's going to love this. Thank you. They're just going to love it. And if they don't And that's the point. No, but if they don't, like, who gives a shit? Yeah, yeah. Well, we will. Well, we will. We will. No, no, no. It's fun. It's

I will just say, just a funny, I think this is funny, I don't know what you guys think is funny. We did write every word, you know, sometimes there are like ghost writers for celebrities, but Penn didn't have a ghost writer, we didn't have a ghost writer. You're going to read and you're like, yeah, you didn't have ghost writers, but, um... That transition could have, you know, been... We literally wrote every, every word, and the hardest thing to write was the blurb. Like, it almost ended us as a group. It's so true. It's just like...

It's terrible. The blurb was like, there were like 40 drafts, and the 100 emails and 12 group calls. And we were all, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, almost knocked us out. It's so annoying because it's like I wrote the book, can someone in marketing write the blurb? Well, someone in marketing did write the blur, but we were just so divas. It's not right.

Tweak it. Okay, okay. You got to be a diva sometimes. Okay. Beyonce's particular, so you can be particular too. Yeah, I was like Taylor is certainly writing her own copy. We're going to write our blurb. Are you guys ready for some

audience cues? Let's do it. Okay. Okay, you guys were a non. No one really put their name on. Okay. The mystery of it all. Okay.

Oh, this is a good one. What is a moment in your personal life slash love life where you knew you messed up but didn't want to take accountability? What ended up happening? So you wanted to take accountability now on stage without the person there who we really need to apologize to? I don't know if that's healthy. Um, I'm fine. No, so, so having been married for, for 10 years, or no, I guess we haven't been married for 10 years, we've been together for 11, married for 8 and 9. That's where I'm constantly having to, you know, learn what that word means, really.

Apart from that, to be honest, I've been in three relationships, and I feel, I, you know, uh, you nailed it you nailed all of them I mean they're full of they're full of like you know transgressions of a kind

but like not the big awful ones or anything but like I can't think of something right now where I'm like I did wrong and I need to say something

and I won't that's so you guys it's the definition of a man that's true I agree I'm like... Well, this isn't to say

that I haven't done anything wrong. I can't think of any. It's, it's, no, it's, but, but, but I, but I, but I apologize for me, is what I'm saying. That, da, da, da, da, da, da. I'm saying, like, I, I, I, I have apologized, you know? I'm just, that was, that was perfect. Yeah.

Oh, this is, this is cute. Do you have a favorite guest from the podcast? Well, besides Phoebe. Ah! Besides Phoebe. I've said this before, but I really loved Eddie Redmayne. He just, like, angel vibes. Just like major angel vibes flowing our way.

I just loved him. Major. Yeah. Give us some good, good stories, too. I've also said this before, and this is from early season one, but she remains a favorite guest, Mona Chalaby. I feel like it was, like, more of a conversation than, other episodes were, and she just, like, wanted to chat, and I loved that.

Hmm. Well, it's kind of, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's like different kinds of favorites. I also loved Mona a lot. That was, like, a very special interview. Conan was, like, a moment where all the things, it was like, like, wow, we might have a real podcast that works here. it was very fun because he's such a good interview so that like had a spirit and a moment to it

where it was like kind of gratifying because he was so gracious I mean he really was he was like so gracious did a little sketch with us like doing a sketch with Conan O'Brien you know what I mean it was a dumb sketch but like he was again so gracious so there was something about that

otherwise maybe Rami Rami Yusef one I really loved yeah I agree my wife okay so what I can apologize to my wife for that I haven't yet apologized for is that she wasn't the first

answer to that question that's cute okay next next question I'm turning 30 tomorrow do you have any advice on how to survive this it's not something to survive grow up 30s are great

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and the world's largest online network of qualified therapists, BetterHelp makes it easy to match with the right therapist online, the one who can make a real difference. See for yourself. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month. To survive 30? Yeah, okay. What I will say, the vice to survive 30s is I feel like that decade is a real opportunity for you to learn how to fall in love with yourself. That is what I would say. So that when you come out the other side of it and you're 40, you're fucking untouchable, dog.

So that would be my. Nobody wants to hear my answer because my mom died right when I turned 30. So that was a brutal. Everyone's always like, wait for your 30s, best decade of your life. Worst decade of my life. Oh, sad. So, yeah. I'm with, like, almost right there with you.

I'm 31. But I feel like, I feel like there was a lot of anticipation for me around turning 30 and feeling like, as a woman, like, I'm losing my relevance. I'm losing my value. I, yeah, there's, there's, feels like there's this clock, even though I feel like I, I feel like I've achieved a lot of things. It feels like there's this clock against, like, my physical form, my face, how it looks. Like, all of that comes into play.

But I think just taking stock of the things that you do have, like you guys were talking about, like, just because I haven't achieved, like, maybe for one person it's a family, maybe for another, it's like a certain career milestone. It doesn't mean all these other things in my life aren't super valuable. beautiful and worth enjoying you also have your face yeah you have your face yeah i was like i don't i don't know it's like gravity is just like so quick for you're pulling it down the skin is skinny skinny i don't want to hear about gravity i don't want to hear about science like no no no fantastic just lift weights you got to lift weights that's my you got to do it you got to do it yeah i mean my experience of of turning 30 was a relief 20s felt incredibly 20 and teens felt deeply, darkly heavy, deeply darkly, you know.

Again, I mean, my teens started with that relationship with a woman who, you know, the heaviness seems to have literally killed her. And that really did mark me in such a profound way that, like, by the time I was 30, I felt like for the first time I was like, oh, I might be young, you know. So, I can relate to the feeling of not knowing how you're going to survive it, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, I do think the 30s can be a time, um, where it can feel, it should be a relief from, from, from, from, from, from something. It should be a relief from, from, of, um, of, um, um, time, youth, something, you know? Like, that's what I think it should be. So if you just turned 30?

About to. Tomorrow. Happy birthday, also. Happy birthday. Who is it? Nobody wants to say it. Just say it. Just go, who.

What? Abba. Abba, happy almost birthday, sir. Yes, happy at you. Well, you might discover that you feel real relief on the day. You know, it's this build-up. I think I do recall the late 20s, you're like, yeah, age, you sound like Sophie over here.

And then, and then you get there and you're like, oh. Yeah, it just feels like more time. It doesn't feel like anything different. It's just movies and TV shows make it be like, you know, I have to, well, I forget what movie. It was like some movie with Sharon Stone in it from like the 90s, and she's like talking to her car work, and she's like, I'm turning 30 tomorrow.

What am I going to do with my life? And I was like, shut up. You're Sharon Stone. You're fucking great. Okay. Oh, this is so cute. I think we had time for two more questions. Okay.

First kiss question. What? Fuck. I dropped my cards. What went through your head and how did you feel? I've told this story so many times on the podcast, but if you haven't heard it. I guess what went through my head, my first kiss was, don't tell my mom. My first kiss was at a birthday party playing Spin the Bottle.

and then I went around to every single person was at that party and said, please don't tell my mom, please don't tell my mom, please don't tell my mom. I had a few small first kisses that, but those don't come to mind. The first, like, proper kiss, I remember spending months leading up to it, talking with all my friends, like, how does it work? Like, the physics of it just did not make sense. Like, how did two mouths come together and, like, so many conversations, sleepovers? And I remember when it happened, I was like, I think we're doing it.

Like, I think it's happening. That was my thought. Yeah, it's probably similar in the sense for everybody, it sounds like, where it's like you're not really present. You've seen it in movies and shows and stuff, and you're like, and they're always so present. But guess what, they're not? Because I know what that's like, too.

Mine was, I referenced it very briefly in one of the essays, but I don't give all the details that I can give here just real quickly. It was, oh, my God. So it was my first week in L.A. So I was this short, fat, you know, I was like a, I was just, I was not the kid who was at all getting the looks and the vibes from the girls in my grade, and I desperately wanted them. And I go down to L.A., and I stayed in a mobile home park there, a trailer park there.

and by the end of the first week I had played truth or dare and had and I it was this my first kiss was with two God forgive me it was it was it was I referenced it in the thing

it was it was with what I recall and I'm like God let my memory be wrong it was with half sisters it was no I'm telling you I mean it was dark it was very very It was dark.

That's what it is. And by the end of that week, I'd seen, I'd seen, you know, like, real porn for the first time. Not just, like, the, it was, going to L.A. was, like, a sudden, sudden, intense thing. You know, smoke a weed, drinking. So, like, it, I remember in my mind just being, like, this is supposed to be so many things that it does not feel like. And it, I mean, it was, it was, yeah, you know, it was like the beginning of, like, a relationship to, it was not, not a, not, not a. not a healthy thing, you know, frankly. But do you remember your thought

when you were kissing the two? It's like, it's like, it's... Were you like, please don't tell my mom? Yeah. I think we're doing it. I mean, from what I can recall is like, I think I'm using my teeth in a way that I don't, that I'm not supposed to.

You stop the sentence right there. I immediately was like, no, got to open the mouth more. And then I figured it out. It was like a very, it was like, no, that's not. that's not okay and it's and now I think we've arrived. Okay. All right. All right.

You know. That's great. You know, good for you. Yeah, but weird. Good for you. Actually, we had time for two. Okay, so I'll do one that's kind of more serious

and then like a cute one to end. Okay, so what one important lesson would you teach your kid, you know, imaginary because we don't. I don't. Yeah.

It's not funny. Try to prefer others over yourself. I feel like there's not enough of that in the world. Girl. That is such a great lesson. Phenomenal. I don't know if this is a lesson. I've said this before.

Penn has also said this before about his kids, my main goal, and I want to stay focused on this. I'm trying to teach her lots of things, but I want to focus on being an open space for her. I want her to tell me everything. I want to foster that. So, yeah, I think just, like, maybe the lesson I want to teach her is, like, yeah, being open with me, specifically. Not with David. Just with Mommy. What lesson do we want to

specifically? Like what lesson we want to leave our kids with? I mean, there's so many, it's hard to nail one. Jeez. Yeah, my brain is like emptying. It's like it's too important. These important questions are hard to answer. Well, they're all boys. So, it's got to, it's probably got to do something with, you know, what can, what cycle of, of, you know, negative masculinity can I, can I lesson?

What positive one can I start? I mean, yeah, I think openness, like, please talk to me about. those things because then you just like release some of that pressure you know there's so much pressure that kids feel girls and boys feel kind of like maybe about slightly different things in different ways but like I just know the pressure as a young boy the idea you have about what it will mean to become a man is it's absolutely terrifying it's like that's and and yeah just some way to relieve that pressure so hopefully my 16 year old stepson feels some of that from me now and And, you know, hopefully my five-year-old and my newborn twins will feel like they can come to their father.

I mean, because that's, you know, listen, God bless my dad, did the best he could in a lot of ways, did not remotely feel I could go to him, you know. And so if I can be that, that's good Lord. That's something. That's huge. It's so hard for boys to open up because we don't make it like a good thing for them do it. So I love that. You've got four boys, so you're going to make four perfect men and then they will be okay. Yeah.

Yeah. The world's going to be fixed. Yeah. Okay. Last question. This is so cute. If you had to describe your book in one word, what would it be smiley face? You're really good at the one word challenges.

You want to go first? Am I the one going? One word? But if I could do that, we wouldn't have written it, right? like 30,000 words. Good. We'll come back. That was a first draft.

We're going to come back. Yeah. Give me a deadline. It is really hard. I wanted to say like wet because maybe you'll cry. It's about middle. school, maybe there's, you know, some nice

bodily functions and fluid. It's getting worse. What? We started out so far. No, tears and sweat. Maybe you'll be nervous. Okay, all right, all right. I'm trying to think there's something all-encompassing. Moist. Yeah, that's a good one. That's better.

Do we want a serious question instead? No, hey, wasn't that funny? So we have good, moist, Moist A lot is writing on you I don't know I'm going to say

effervescent That is how you close That is how you close That is my everyone Nava won the panel That was amazing Well I am so excited For you guys

I love this book so much I really do You did such a phenomenal job many, I want you each to write individual books as well, sorry to give you homework, but please don't. And thank you guys.

Thank you all for coming out tonight. Thank you, thank you, Phoebe. Thank you, Phoebe. Thanks for having me. We signed. Oh, yeah, all the books available here we've signed. We did it right before you came. They're all signed. It took a long time.

It was 300 of them or something. Grab a copy. put it up on eBay tonight Exactly Be disappointed With the return On investment No I hope you guys

Enjoy the book as well It's such a good read It's so like I just want to hug it And I want it to hug me back It's just such a sweet little cuddle of a book Alternatively the audiobook is like And I'm not you know It's really lovely to hear them narrate their essays

It's a Yeah yeah us not the professional narrator Okay, but in addition to, I'm saying it's like, it's really nice. It has a really nice pace to it. I was able to listen to some of it today. And, yeah, so I feel really good about that as well. Get the audio book, guys. Yeah.

You are on top of it. You front row, helping him out with the answer about his wife. You got the audiobook. Oh, okay. Well, is that it? Should we leave? I think so. Thank you, guys. Thank you guys so much for coming.

Give it up one more time for Phoebe Robinson. Every caregiving journey is unique, but the isolation, guilt, and exhaustion we all feel, that's universal. It's reality, it's life. You know, I wish it could all be happy and joyous, but sometimes it's full of rage, and that is what it is. That's why this show exists To be a safe place for caregivers to land Listen to Squeezed wherever you get your podcasts