Podcrushed - Ed Speleers

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

Today we're joined in-person by the brilliant actor and Penn's co-star Ed Speleers (You, Downton Abbey, Star Trek: Picard), who shares why his first play shocked and stunned his entire school, the reason that his first movie role, Eragon, was almost his last, and why his character Rhys from You is his favorite villain. (RHYYYYYS!)   Follow Podcrushed on socials!  TikTok Twitter InstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonado Whoa, whoa, whoa, calm down there. You know what, guys? Let's just put up our feet. You know? I don't know if you can see this. Put your hair down. Just put the shake your hair feather.

This is my vibe coming into season two. I'm being told to put my feet down. So I'll clean that up. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Sorry, serious. Sorry, serious. Ken is getting yelled at.

You can't hear. because they're behind the glass but yeah there's a team yeah actually it's one guy his name's Brendan he's furious no there's a team they represent the beast and we're doing it really work for them we're in the belly of the beast yeah welcome to season two uh coming to you live from the colon it's pretty good we can edit from there we can we can we can we can go to something else guys what's uh what's what's what's what's on topic what's you guys want to get political No, never. Definitely not. Never. But we are so excited to be back with you guys.

I am so happy to be back. I've missed you guys. I've missed interacting with our listeners. I've missed recording with these two folks. And I'm so happy that we're in person today. My heart's full. It's much better. It's so nice. Otherwise, we're just getting into fights all the time. Seriously. Fight, fight, fight, fight, conflict, conflict, conflict. If Penn and I are fighting, Nava's yelling, fight, fight, fight, fight. I'm instigating most of the, I'm spreading misinformation. whatever I can do to create toxicity between Penn and Sophie. Because it's good for TikTok. Tick-Ticity is good for TikTok. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Which means we're just waiting to sell you drugs. So stupid. We're not going to use that one. Let's let's, can we please move on? To our guest, because we're running out of time.

And we're running out of attention span. We're running out of ad buyers money. today we've got Ed Spaliers who is an English actor you might know him from some of his massive shows like Downton Abbey he played James Jimmy Kent he's on Outlander where he played

the antagonist the awful antagonist I guess Stephen Bonnet you might know him from Aragon which was his first role which we get into it was a huge franchise back in the day he played Aragon also Star Trek

he plays I think a role that is a bit of a similar, it's like a reveal spoiler that we can't talk about. I think this is what I recall him saying. So it's a very, very major role on Star Trek, which you'll be seeing. Most recently, Ed's talents have brought him to a role on my show,

you, where he plays. Rees! Rees! Yeah? That's great. Ed's a legend. We love having him on. Stick around. We'll be right back. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored?

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that we have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dole Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. Ed, thank you for flying all the way

just for this interview and putting your kids, taking them out of school. I'm just I'm just stunned. Well, it shows how much you mean to me, Ben.

It is really nice to see you. It's been a little bit. It's been a while, yeah. I mean, it hasn't been a huge amount of time, but it's funny, isn't it? Because I, I better to speak out of turn here, but you go and do a job where you work really intensely with someone,

and sometimes you strike up great rapport, sometimes you don't. I've really, really, and I think I've waxed lyrical about this, how much time and respect I have for you and how much I enjoyed our process, I suppose. So genuinely, I feel bowled over with honour to be sitting here with all of you today. Because I know how passionate you are about all this and I know how great it is. So, yeah, it's great to see you again.

That might have been the best reaction we've gotten here. Bold over with honor. We're honored to have you. And I feel like in particular, what we had to tap into and what we were doing was a really interesting and strange and almost risky process. You know, I mean, the way you played Reese, I think was an immense challenge. And you, I mean, you more than showed up and delivered. I mean, I really do think it's like a standout performance of the whole of the whole season, you know. I mean, I'm always there doing Joe, and that is what it is.

But you know what that's like. You know what that's like. You know what it's like to just have to carry the whole scene and then me get all the credit. You do all the talking. I mean, and how much talking. I mean, he did go on a bit. Wow.

We like to start now going back, sort of as far as you're willing, so that we can just put a nice context around this formative time of life, adolescence. Maybe sketch us out a bit of early family life that led to the way you felt and the way that you were in middle school. That was a formative time because the sort of school I was going to, 12.13 is when

you're about to make a change. So you're about to go into a secondary set up. For a lot of kids it's around 11, but I happen to be at a very privileged school. However, I came from a very different background.

So I think that was I was going to school with kids that were getting picked up in the flashes cars in the world. I had all the money in the world and I was I remember sometimes almost and it's horrific to think like this I was almost embarrassed to see

how I was going to be picked up you know because it would be clapped out of old cars sometimes and all that kind of thing and I I suppose going to a place like that from an early age you feel

responsibility to do well in an environment like that because I knew that my parents for better or for worse had found a way to put me through an education like this and sort of sacrificed many, many things and probably sacrificed things for the

luxuries for themselves that I think maybe a lot of parents wouldn't these days. So I did feel pressure. I felt pressure very early on in this world to achieve. It's funny because I think I'm constantly caught between relishing that pressure and being resentful of it

because I feel it's that pressure that's constantly driving me even now. Yeah. Ed, I want to know a little bit more about your family life. So you said you were feeling a lot of pressure. That made me wonder, did you have siblings who were in the same position as you, or were you an only child, which could potentially make you feel even more pressure?

Like, you're the only one in this position. What was your home life? So I come from one of three. But the complexity is we all have different dads. We were all found ourselves going to these, like, I suppose, they're not like, they're not the higher echelons of elite school, but they're private schools. But every single one of us had some form of scholarship or bursary to be there. That was just the decision that the parents made to make sure that was a thing.

Interestingly, at that middle school age, my brother had been there prior to me, and I think he'd struggled with certain teachers and some of those teachers were still there. So the minute I got there, they had it out for me for just for some reason, a pre-existing, they'd take it place. Are they much older? Yeah, they are a lot older. So the next one, in fact, I was messaging him before coming in here today, he's like 10 years older than me, and the eldest is that 17 years older than me.

But to be fair, we've worked really hard to make sure we stay close. Because I think quite often with half-siblings and step-siblings, it can be quite tricky to form the bond. But I have to, I mean, that is, you know, one of the huge driving forces in my life is the fact that us three as brothers, we are incredibly close. and there is of course there's elements that don't work all the time

and there's opinions and things but you know my my the next brother up in particular was really influential in a lot of my sort of creative

outputs and certainly when it came to music and film and you know he was I mean he's shown me Terminator 1 when I was 5 which is probably a little bit I mean these days

that's standard yeah that seems a bit much stranger things but I endorse that I was my guess So we wait a little longer. But yeah, I've got a lot of time and love, well, both my brothers, but he was definitely a big shining light growing up.

Because there were things that happened at home that weren't always great. Yeah. You know, but I have to give a lot of space to him and how he tried to protect me, nurture me, and, you know, and do the big brother thing. It's interesting you say that he sort of nurtured maybe the artist in you. is he an artist he's not right

he's I mean he's a very creative soul fiercely intelligent guy much like yourself Penn he's sorry I give them looks I'm like see I am intelligent

so stupid sorry I'm waiting for proof I didn't go to school did I sorry he worked in the music industry for years DJing promoting things oh so that's very much in the world Yeah, completely.

Okay, okay. And he's wanted to make films for a long time. And, yeah, he's, in fact, something he's aspiring to do at a moment. But, yeah, he's a very creative soul. When did the art start speaking to you? And when did that start to become more than just like a, you know, curiosity or a hobby? I think really early on. My mum's got some ridiculous notion that she was in an amateur dramatic play,

and she was pregnant with me, and she felt me kicking. She was like, oh, he's going to be an actor. Wow. which is a bit, it's a little bit far-aged. I mean, it's a very sweet story, but yeah. Or is it real? Is that exactly what happened? You came out with jazz.

I'm not far from the truth. It's so bad at the will. So, but I think very early on, I was quite, I was given chances to do, you know, I think any opportunity that came my way at school or a preschool to do any, any sort of little production, I got into it very quickly. And that became, you know, talking about that age from about, I'd say that carried through until about 10. And then I, when I was at this particular school,

I was given the chance to play puck in Midsummer Night's Dream. It was only 10. And I just remember loving the feeling of being on stage. And having everyone sort of in the palm of your hand, in a sense of a tenure, however a 10-year-old can have that. And enjoying, and enjoying that. I think it was an attention thing to start with. As far as we're aware on Wikipedia, we did a bit of our research.

Did you write a play? Because you never, I feel like we had a lot of conversation on set. Can I actually read you the Wikipedia entry? We can erase this if you don't feel comfortable, but it's written in such a, like, tantalizing way. It says Spaliers wrote a play that was performed at Eastbourne College in Sussex, where he attended. Extraordinarily controversial, retribution dealt with the subject of pedophilia

and was met with stunned reactions. Tell us about this, Ed. So, please, honestly. So when you're all, between the age of 14, 16, you study for something called your GCSEs in the UK. So if you do drama, you have to devise a piece. Or you can either devise your own piece or you have to do, like, take a written piece

and sort of reenact it and everything. My friends and I, there was three of us, decided to devise a piece around paedophilia. and in particular in sort of young offenders institutions it was kind of taken from inspiration from

there was a book and it was turned into a film called Sleepers do you remember that film yeah that movie was yeah and Kevin Bacon

I do remember that movie yeah and I was I don't know as a teenager I was fascinated by that film it was with like priests right

yeah I think it is based on true story you got Robert I mean it's an all-star cast everyone's in it Brad Renfro it's a kid Brad Renfro

man yeah and it was also So there was a Ray Winston film. I think that was what his first, his like breakout performance, was in a thing called Scum, which is a different idea, but in an institution. So we thought that would be a good thing to explore.

And we pretty much improvised a whole thing. And it was... Improvising and play about pedophilia. I'm sure yes and works there in the same way. I mean, there's no way it would be happening in school. Well, I know it's bad, isn't it? Yeah, what was controversial about it? Was it just that it was a taboo topic,

or did you, was the point you were making controversial? It was quite violent. It was, I suppose, for a school exam piece, quite sexually explicit and it was not, yeah, it was, we got a really good grade, though, so I mean, it was moxed. It was ambitious, it was very ambitious, it was controversial. So you improvise the violence and the sexuality That feels dangerous

We obviously were rehearsed at And that was choreographed And the one kid in particular Who's still a very good friend So he couldn't be that badly affected By what we put together He You know

There were a few times Where we were having to sort of like There was some Oh God I can't believe I'm saying this There were some beatings That like didn't quite work out And like we actually hit him on the shins But I was like you know

I'm now I know But having now worked in the industry I mean, that kind of happens when you're... It does. We always get bruises and cuts on our... Also, like teenage kids are knocking about always getting up to mischiefs.

At least we were trying to do something creative. Yeah, no, I think it's laudable. Can I just ask one more question on this round? Were your parents in the audience? I think my mum would have been because my mum never really missed anything. Do you remember how she reacted? She's like, I mean, I can...

I mean, she's the best critic I've got because she never ever puts me... I'm like, Mom, you've got to... You've got to be a bit more objective than you're doing at the moment. Like, please. So, no, but there was a lot of, you know, a lot of our peers were, and other teachers were. And I remember them just, because it was quite a, you know, a hoi-po-loi sort of school. Everyone was very, oh, no, no, it's very good.

No, no, it's very good, Edward. That's so good. You're really challenging what you did. You're pushing the boundaries, weren't you? That's so good. Okay. We'll move on from middle school in a minute, but I do want to ask a couple of questions

that we always ask our guests on Pod Crushed, one of them being, what were your experiences around love and heartbreak at this time? Good question. So that, I think my interactions were quite strange. I remember I was doing a play outside of school. I was doing Bugsie Malone outside, like nothing to do a school,

like in a group production thing. And there was a girl there that I really, really, really fancied. but I couldn't, I could not bring my, I think maybe because I went to all boys junior school, I just couldn't bring myself to talk to her. However, this is going to sound really creepy. However, I always had the guts to phone her up. And I could phone her and, like, use a pay phone in the school, like, boarding house.

And I used to put all my money into this pay phone to speak to her. And I talked to her for, like, an hour, hour and a half every night. Like, the kids are, like, talking about. Maybe it's just, maybe it's not creepy. Are you leaving a message, Ed? Yeah. A hour and a half. Wait, real?

I haven't heard back from you yet. I don't try again. But every then And she wouldn't talk to you either in person No, I think she would have She just, no, she was silent on the other hand I think she was expecting me to come up to her She was a year older

Yeah, yeah, yeah She was playing into tropes She was playing into the idea that you need to know I think you're right I think maybe, maybe But also Yeah, I just remember being so petrified To go and talk to her

And like almost sweating in rehearsals But then also desperately wanting to go and talk to her I mean that sort of check that Yeah, so that relationship didn't last, obviously. Yeah. And then, sorry. You know, secondary school, it changed a little bit, I suppose. Because I was suddenly in an environment where there was, there was girls, there was, well, there was women, they were up to 18.

So it was like, it was a whole new thing. Did you have any notable heartbreaks? Yeah, by someone who was a couple years older than me. Yeah, it was quite raw. Mm-hmm. because she was still in love with one of the the all singing all dancing sports heroes of the school the other question that we always ask our pod crush guests about middle school

is do you have any embarrassing stories readily available about that time we'll take an embarrassing story from any moment of your life if it doesn't come from middle school embarrassing stories I'm not very good or maybe I try and push all these things away do you get embarrassed yes i mean i get embarrassed all the time i get embarrassed i i have a real i have a huge chip on my shoulder about many things just to pick one

yeah no but they're not necessarily they're not too things that embarrassed because i i thought the embarrassing thing would come up and i was like what what have i been embarrassed by where have i that's bad isn't it though maybe i don't wear them more than my wear them

front and center that i can't think of a particular memory that is making me go that was an awful moment. I think I've had more traumatic things happen to me than embarrassing things. Embarrassing is hard. It's like it has to be kind of trivial.

I mean, maybe not trivial, but yeah, you know, traumatic feels like a different, sadder experience. Yeah, we wouldn't ask you to share your most traumatic. That's another part of it. Yeah, we can come back to that one. Exactly. Yeah, I've got to think about embarrassing things. Yeah, that's fine.

I'm sorry. No, so actually, to me... Sophie's actually very relieved. She has a hard time thinking of embarrassing things, and you're the first person who hasn't been able to think of one. It's hard to remember. They're hard to pinpoint. I mean, good company.

Ed, we're going to get into your career in just a moment, but I wanted to ask you, you're a father. You mentioned when you came in, you were talking about your kids, and I just wanted to know how you feel that becoming a father has changed your life or impacted your life. I feel that I look at the world so differently, which I'm sure that's the theme that comes up time. and time again with people, what's here, you know, in cancer parenthood. I feel that I'm so

sensitive to things happening to other people. I definitely used to be a lot more, I definitely used to be a lot more aggressive in life. And even towards others as well. And I feel that that has shifted. I've certainly been protective of my own, but I feel that I have a lot more empathy for the world in a way that I didn't possibly before. Can you just share a little bit more? because I love hearing people talk about how becoming a parent increases their creativity because sometimes we might associate it with the opposite. Can you share just a little bit more about that?

Well, I think you are only a heartbeat away from some sort of emotion spilling out of you because, you know, children, from the moment I remember both of my son and my daughter, both of them when they were born, just the emotion that pulled out, having seen this witness, this process and witnessed what my girlfriend was able to do,

do. How on earth is that possible? And then that just, that emotion never leaves you your work. I mean, I don't get me wrong. It also means my anger emotions are also just like, or also simmering as well. My daughter is a firecracker and she keeps me on my toes at all times. I feel that your personal emotions, your own emotions are just at your fingertips so much more because you're, I don't know if it's your, it has to come down to her love. I just watch these two and they are fulfilling that all the time. They are the, they're my driving force. they are the reason that you know they're the reason I'm sat here talking today

you know all these things it's not really it's not about me anymore I just want to highlight something you said because I haven't quite heard it this way and I think it's really profound you connected creativity to love like the expression greater expressions of creativity being connected to greater feelings of love

and I just want to put a highlight on that because that's beautiful another summarizes things actually she's a clean of summary she'll draw out the genius in what you just said I've never heard my be a genius put in the paper I think it's really lovely also what you said about how your children have increased your empathy and how you feel about other people.

I don't have any children yet, but my sister has a daughter and she's pregnant with a second, and she has told me that, you know, before she loved kids, she would see children in public and think like, oh, cute, you know, like most of us do. But then after starting to raise her child and seeing, you know, the progression, the challenges that she goes through, the all of the emotions that she experiences her little idiosyncrasies and little cute things now when she sees another child in public she just has this like overflowing love because it's not just a child sitting on the bus next to her you know like she imagines that whole uh spectrum of that child's life and I think that probably extends to other human beings as well because everyone was a child at one point you know that's how I feel about dogs after getting a dog but anyway well so every time I see a dog I'm like like oh my god you're so special so i had it with dogs for years and i still get it with dogs but i think

you can have that thing i think it's just it's just putting on someone well what you're what you were tapping into there sophie is i think like we should feel that kind of love for all people i mean we really like honestly like when we see somebody who doesn't have a home and is and is forced to live on the streets when we see somebody struggling with addiction when we see somebody really in any kind of pain that is that is notable it you know it should break our hearts at least a little bit. And I feel like the future of humanity is in the kind of love that we're able to tap into now with parenthood. I think all people, of course, have access to that. It's just so that we know. It's like, it's like becoming a parent is like a fail-safe way. And even then, by the way,

lots of people sort of, it might crack them for a second, but then they wall up after. So, you know. That's true. But it's, it's a love that's universally available to all of us. How about that? Wow. There we go. Stick around. We'll be right back. all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to 10 and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want to get sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have

two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. My family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turn to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, you even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three

that I use I use the what is it called liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out,

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Go to Rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. Was your first role in Aragon? All right, moving on. Thank you for coming. So wait a second. So what were you like 17? 17.

Yeah. And it shows. It's your first role. What a major role. It's huge. It is huge. I also want to tell you, I went out for that.

I auditioned for it. You'd have been a lot better. No, you know what the feedback from the cast director was to my agent, and I've never gotten this before or after in my life. And it was warranted, but it also shows how long I'd already been doing it, and I was like so... I was not remotely prepared. I was like, this is a story about a dragon.

Little did I know how popular dragons were going to become. Was the feedback pen put the cigarettes away next time you go into an audition? They're like, don't put them out on your own arm. It's a little disconcerting. Freaks everyone out. No, no. I also knew, by the way. I had a whole diatribe to my girlfriend before.

I was like, it's going to go to some British guy. Really? Some British guy. A British guy, I love. I just probably gave one of the worst auditions in my life, least prepared, and the feedback that the casting director gave. I don't know what the tone was. It was admonishing.

If it was... She said he was so unprepared, it seemed arrogant. Not arrogant. Not arrogant. Was it arrogant or arrogant? Do I have a chance? Did I get it? Did the arrogance work?

It's all the facade. I'm miserable! Yeah. So that was... In fact, I didn't even recall that until I saw that you were arrogant. I was like, wait, is this the same arrogant? Yeah.

So arrogant. It must be the same. So that's cool. Yeah. So, and again, this comes back to being at that sort of down at Eastbourne and being at school where I was given opportunity. So every time I was about to sort of veer off the straight and narrow, or if I did veer off the straight and narrow, I had this very pushy drama teacher.

I also had this sort of personal tutor there who, they just ground me in doing like a production. They'd always constantly have me doing something that was, you know, like creatively stimulating. That's great. It was really cool. And one particular teacher, the head of drama, who was an actor himself, he kept putting me forth, because he had connections to the industry, he kept putting me forward for film auditions. And there'd been two or three, like the Narnio series was one franchise I went up for, got quite close on that. And then, not close enough, but anyway. And then I think the Hannibal Rising was another one as well.

And then this, yeah, this audition came up. And I remember doing like two tapes. and I was all set to be like going on a a rugby tour to Argentina with my school so that's what I thought I was doing and my dad even to this day is still like well you should have been going on a rugby tour that's what you were supposed to be doing

Ed I mean to be fair you sound like you were very cool you've never mentioned that you played rugby like that's an embarrassing story in itself all right he only gets better Ed's embarrassing story is like being too good at two things I literally am going to I'd shine everywhere

and it becomes embarrassing. Embarrassing for you guys. That's what I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. I'm going to just keep dropping those in there as well as we do. Yes, and it came up and it was a completely

surreal scenario. It was the one thing I'd wanted more than anything but suddenly I was going to be sent off to Eastern Europe for seven months as a 17 year old and it was weird because I was at that age where I wasn't young enough to where a chaperone was required

but I wasn't quite old so I wasn't quite old enough so they could do like full adult hours kind of thing so I was in this weird I was just in this weird limbo where I was basically given free rain in Eastern Europe

in Eastern Europe as a guy who was already a little Golden rugby player well there was no no no no no no no no no there'd be a few friends at school who would definitely be scoffing at that right now I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure

I'm sure I'm sure they um yeah it was but I was already a kid that was I don't know sometimes I was

I found myself getting in trouble at school and so to take that kid and put them in Eastern Europe with complete free reign and liberty on a film set

on a film set when you're surrounded by people who have who you know quite liberal in their approach to life anyway and you're number one on the call shoot probably

yeah it opened up a whole giant franchise living life Did you enjoy that free reign, or did it feel like too much? I enjoyed it at the time, but hindsight, what a wonderful thing it is, has made me realize I was giving her too much. And I remember actually having a chat with my dad in a square in Budapest, and there was a load of crew there. My dad's not an emotional man, although there's elements of him that are becoming more so, he's. he gets older but he

looked scared and he told me he was scared before you went off as I was just starting and I'd never had sort of seen him so honest about it and as a 17 year old unfortunately I wasn't prepared and I wasn't

emotionally mature enough to handle that I kind of just laughed it off and be like that it's fine you know and took a very rock and roll approach and I wish I'd heeded his his fear a little bit more What was he, I mean, I think it's kind of clear broadly, but what was he afraid of specifically in that moment for you? I think he was afraid that I was going to be swept up into the TV film industry and potentially spat back out again.

He was right, he was definitely right. I think he was worried that I would be doing all the wrong things, you know, the drinking. The things that, you know, the temptation that is put before you when you were. well, at many ages, but certainly he's a young actor and you're starting out. And don't know me wrong, I took the work very seriously even then, but I didn't have any grounding. Right, yeah, well, you're 17 in a film set

with no real parameters. It's a hundred million dollar movie, there's nothing. And that was when, by the way, that was like, franchises were not as common as things. No, like, that's really, that was a big, that was why I was so unprepared for my audition. I'm like, I'm not going to get this thing. No, but no, but seriously.

I mean, that was like, I just want to appreciate it. That was not, there are a lot more people who can relate now to that experience. It's still a small number, but more people. Then I didn't feel like it was just not really a thing. And I wonder if now, if people have, there's much more of a support network that is enforced. And I feel that, you know, I think both my parents just felt like they didn't know what, you know, what they were supposed to do. And it's not their fault.

And also, I was supposed to have this, this one of these teachers I was talking about, my school come out and, like, keep my education up. That just went completely. So having been, like, going okay with certain things at school there, was just forgotten about and it was a huge opportunity i got to work with some amazing people that don't and like the actual experience of making the film was was amazing was mine was mind blowing but i i i also struggled with it as it because it was really poorly received um and when you're 17 and front and center but that's your first role first role and i was

completely taken apart the film was taken apart oh geez that just seems evil I have so many issues with the way that critics write reviews because there's human beings at the center and sometimes it feels like they're deliberately to get their views or whatever they're like deliberately being like mean and like cruel in the assessments and it's just so unnecessary

especially if there's a child like someone under 18 involved there should be laws against that and especially in film and TV where there are so many hands in what's being created and actually so little control belongs to one person alone

and so what ends up happening is that the actors get skewered because they're the face of the project but yeah it just feels quite cruel so Ed what was it like to be skewered at 17 no no no no I'm kidding I mean in all honesty I was still you talk about us on set

and it comes back down to this thing of pressure I mean there's huge pressure there but then I completely went off the rails on the back of it and yeah I mean I was basically kissed my career goodbye by the time I was 21 more or less oh really yeah I mean I was just

it was all over the place so how did you get back in was downtown abbey the next commercial project that would be the next commercial project but I feel there were two independent films that did before that just they just put a bit of confidence back in and it became

it was about finding discipline I suppose I think a discipline is something I'd struggled with for a long time. I found a lot of it through running, weirdly. And I discovered that even more so on a couple of these independent films. I just ran every day. And it's very meditative for me, which I know so many people say, but it really, it's been a big, that was a big turning point, I suppose. Do you still run? Yeah, I still do quite a lot. Not as much as I was. I was doing huge amounts during COVID and, like, distances, this is another embarrassing moment.

It's not another, it's the first. He's joking. He's about to brag. I'm doing the reversal thing again. So you're saying you're an incredible runner. 17 miles a day. Yeah, sure. And also not running.

But that became part of it. And I think, yeah, so these two little independent films I did where I just enjoyed the process and got back on and actually felt like it was the first time. Since probably being at school, I had confidence in my ability. And then Downton did come along. And that changed it. yet again, I suppose.

Yeah, I would assume that, like, projects, like getting Downton Abbey, for example, that can, you know, feel affirming in one way as an artist, but then on the other hand, being able to do more independent projects that have less of an audience that aren't tied to how they'll be received as much, where you can just focus on the art and the reason that you probably got into it, the feeling that you have, the joy that you have when you're doing the art are probably both necessary. Yeah, I think they definitely are.

I feel that and also you sort of can't really do one without doing the other anyway. And actually on Downton, as much as it was commercially huge success, and I had some great things to do in that show. I was also very much, it was a big, that was another learning code because it was a place where I got to watch a lot. Rather than, I wasn't necessarily, I wasn't front and center, which is fine,

but it was a place to absorb and study other people and how they responded. But I think, yeah, definitely that you do need both because one gives you the confidence to do the other as well, I suppose. Is one of these films, again, we did a little, just a tidbit of research. Is this Wale? To Wale is something I produced.

Oh, okay. We should talk, yeah. It doesn't say started. Right, okay, okay, okay. so hang on it's a short film oh yeah all right

let me read the rest of this question just another one of my talents you know pair did you think you could produce one of our projects so from what I'm reading is that it centers on racial

prejudices in the UK yes yeah it does it's a very good friend of mine Barnaby Blackburn who we've now he's written and directed and I've produced with him

three shorts This was the first. It centers around a young guy played by the wonderful Raphael from a Toby. I feel like I'm doing a pitch for it, even though we've... You're sorry. I'm so sorry. Well, you're going to have to do this, you know,

always to support your craft. He is just coming out of a Young Offenders Institute, having done some time, and he's trying to rebuild his life. And it's exploring how difficult it is to do that in London, in a city London and the prejudices that people face

so he comes back out to be a, he's trained as a mechanic and he comes back out to be a mobile mechanic and he meets this character who he thinks is going to be his first client and might even potentially be this sort of almost like an angel. Someone who's going to look after him and guide him

and it turns out that that guy is there to just exploit him racially essentially. So we, yeah, we are and we wanted to look at you know we've shot that five years ago now six years ago maybe so it was a time when there's understandably a lot of attention and a lot of heat in london uh you know about you know racial discrimination exploitation um and we just thought it was an important story to tell i would love to hear a little bit sort of what from your perspective what are the

biggest challenges facing achieving like total racial equality in a place like london the polarizing views are becoming so extreme now it feels like we're just going back in time and i don't i don't understand i don't understand why it doesn't i don't see why everyone's had to fight so hard for it for i i just can't see the logic of how anybody thinks that's that's a good approach and i think what my my fear is that certainly in inner cities i suppose that if you come from a certain racial background that you're going to struggle because there isn't there isn't there isn't the attention on on on on on on where you are there isn't the investment on where you are and I feel that people are are going to suffer as a result and I don't know why but why can't we make it

better I don't know why we can't fight I don't know I just don't get the logic I don't see why well yeah I mean look I the question is so hard to address but it does feel to me like because we're addressing the problem as as as a primarily material crisis whereas the crisis is invisible the things the things that are withholding us from progress are not material they're they're you know for the three of us hosting this show we would refer to them as spiritual but you could refer to them as um moral philosophical political you know somewhere in that realm because the things that are the the barriers in our way is not like oh there's not enough money to fill in the blank you know nor is there not enough time to fill in the blank um it's just about will you know so so so so to me although i don't have an adequate

answer to that great question it it's it it's at least that we seem to be attacking these problems as though as though um really as though money will will will will solve the problem actually you know because again for all of the incredible work that countless organizers like around the world in different ways are doing like there's no doubt about that like there does need to be redistribution of wealth there does need to be the generation of wealth in different communities like absolutely it's of course like material well-being is one aspect that needs to be addressed but without tapping the root of the problem which is ultimately like actually an idea like race as a social construct is an idea and it's like you know we're not yeah so I don't know yeah I also think it starts quite young like what we were talking about earlier that that overflowing love that every person has the potential to tap into for other human beings I think part of the reason we we don't have that especially for people who don't look like us is starts at school, like at a very young age, especially in the U.S., yeah, at home or, you know, most schools in the U.S. are quite segregated, not, you know, by law, but by, by neighborhood.

And so if people aren't living in integrated neighborhoods, then they're going to schools in, in, in, they're going to segregated schools, essentially. And they're growing up surrounded by other people who look like them and not getting to know and developing a love for a whole, range of people. It's interesting because my son we haven't breakfast yesterday and my son he's fascinating little chap and he's got questions on everything

and I don't have the brain power to answer him coherently but I try and he was saying he was asking me yes what was it he said to me yesterday we were talking about religion because he's studying something about Greek mythology at the moment then we moved on to religion and it was that whole sort of BC AD thing and then he was talking about religion

in the UK and about Christianity being quite prominent. I said, yes, it is, although I think it's starting to shift and Christianity in the UK is waning. And I think, I might, I may, you might have to fact check me on this, but I feel like Islam is actually the more prominent faith in the UK.

And he was like, why? But why, Dad? And I was trying to explain to him, since the beginning of time, we have been a country full of people immigrating. And that is forever evolving. And I was trying to explain to him that Christianity has been the strongest standpoint for such a religion for such a long time, the main faith there. But it's evolving because we've had so many different people coming from all around the world with their cultural ideas, with their faiths, with their feelings, and coming in it.

And I was trying to say, I think it's great that it's evolving. And if some becomes a more prominent one for the next 400 years, then so be it. That's cool. If it's bringing in, you know, these are saying that these people have, you know, if it's a couple of generations ago, a family have arrived, and then that next generation, they're British and they are feeding that in and Britain has founded itself on being this melting pot of ideas and faiths and beliefs and I think that's pretty cool

so I feel that that sort of taps into I think sort of what you're saying Sophie in terms of where people come and what they're surrounded by and I was just quite curious to think my eight-year-old son was asking me the question and I still don't think I gave him the good enough answer because he looked at me and he was oh

he didn't he looked unsure I think our political systems and our educational systems, like basically all the systems through which we organize ourselves are cast in the light of old beliefs about human beings that some were better than other, you know, like basically cast systems everywhere, some formal, some informal, but basically the belief that some human beings are better than others and deserve more than others. And hopefully that is an antiquated view. And we are moving more and more towards the enlightened understanding that that's not true and that there's like a sense. oneness. But our systems absolutely do not reflect that and then actually reinforce these old beliefs so that there are some that still hold them. So if you think about like an institution as a channel through which resources flow, those channels are definitely broken. Like what you're saying is right. They don't get to some places. Some places get way more than they need. So we also just like have to have new political systems and reform all of these systems to be in the light of the like understanding of oneness. And until we do that, we won't have material solutions. We

won't have spiritual solutions. It is inaccessible until you change systems to be really built in that light and in that understanding. In a way, we've complicated things beyond any kind of reasons. Yeah, totally. And there is an inherent oneness to humanity that we all actually as children just feel and know, you know, before we've learned about race, before we've, you know, all these differences that we, that some are real, but some are magnified and some are just totally imagined. And so I feel like one of the greatest challenges of being a parent is like kind of taking all that you know, all the complications about the world that you know are sort of set up to obfuscate some of these simple truths and just be like, you know, like, how do I

say this to you right now? How do I say this to you in a way that you'll understand that doesn't actually start to teach you about all these unreal complications? You know? Is that, is that, Completely. Completely. Yeah, because the other question he asked me that they were talking about

so my beloved football team in London is Tottenham Hospital. Yes, I know. And one of our star players who is like possibly the loveliest man in men's football. Hungman's son. Yeah.

Who came on and scored and a great girl against wrestling the other day was subject to racial abuse and I'm like, Asia and my girlfriend I would like how is anyone racial? beautifully people like these people and it's it's every team is doing it every fat's well most group of fans try not to but there's a certain fans that seem to do it more than

others and my son and we were talking about it in the car and and my boy jude was like but dad what's racism and like i tried to explain and he was again he just looked he was like why why why how is anybody like prejudging and how how where's that base who but that's incredible that an eight-year-old is so enlightened that it's absurd to him yeah like that That's also beautiful. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah.

And it's such a shame that we have to have everything so affected as we go on in life. So how do we reset it? I know it's a huge thing. We're going to figure that out today. Different podcast, though. It's going to be on our RSS feet. You guys, tune in, YouTube, like and subscribe. We'll be solving racism there.

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to talking about you, the project that you not me. Our show. No, not you. Let's go from race to Netflix to Netflix. Netflix is, no. Number three show right now. Really? I don't know.

By the time this air is, who knows? Yeah, I want to jump into you. How did the role of Reese come onto your radar? So I was out here filming something else at the time, and I, my UK agent, Rebecca, is obsessed with the show. Oh, really? Obsessed. I think she's delighted I'm here today. Oh, my Rebecca.

Maybe we could call her Beck. Oh, wow. Hello, Beck. She basically said if you, I mean, not quite she dropped me if I didn't do it, but she was like, I have been working, Rebecca. Like me, you're like, I'm on Star Trek, Rebecca. She made it pretty clear. She's like, I think this would be a really great, be a really great move. And I was like, okay, well, I'll do some, I'll do some, I'll do some digging.

I'll do some research Reese search Oh dear Everyone got that on this show More More And I mean to be honest It felt like

I had to do it based on You don't often get full scripts When you tape or auditioned You probably don't know what taping or auditioning is You probably haven't done it for 20 or years What else have I done? What else have I done that that leads you to believe that I'm right?

But so often you don't really You seldom get a script. So if you get sides, it's so hard to work out what this part's all about unless you... It's so true. It says like literally boy or girl or man. Oh, gosh. You could take it in any direction. And you've got no context.

You don't know where this fits in the story. They don't give you the name of the thing. Like I remember when you're auditioning for something like Spider-Man or Star Wars, they will not give it the same name. They won't tell you the role. They won't tell you the plot. Is that what happened when you audition for Mr. Fantastic? It's what happened when I auditioned for Aragon, actually, which is why I... Wow, that's interesting

Yeah, well, as an actor, it's frustrating It's like you're giving me nothing Why did they do that? By the way, usually a false scene It's written specifically just for the purpose of the audition So it's like, so it's a little bit denuded of substance And so it's just like, I'm trying to do what you want me to do And they give you a huge casting breakdown

Of describing a part of, almost throwing every characteristic out there Yeah, because you just don't really know what's going on And they want to be like, so you want to be giving it this, but also this, and also but under there, just a little bit of this. And on top, you're sprinkling a little bit of this. And you're like, okay, all right, I think I can... But just throw it away.

You're too invested, you're too invested. Pull it back just a little bit. We want you more arrogant. That was too arrogant. Get out. But the reason why I was so hooked straight away is the scenes were so well written and so thought out. and I got a really good understanding of who this person is

and I was keen to get involved I then did a Zoom meeting which is a Zoom screen test is the weirdest thing in the world because I was sat in a tiny room and I got the sense there was about 50 people online I couldn't see any of them

apart from John Scott I think I could see shout out to John Scott I'm an intrepid producing director for season four and I mean that seems to go well and then I had a lovely

lengthy chat with Sarah Gamble and she gave me the whole pracy of what was going to be taking place for the part. Okay so that's what we were going to ask you next probably was I think right? When did you find out about like Reese's true nature? She basically told me everything and I

bricked it because I was like how at earth there was that pressure thing coming in again how am I going to do that? How am I going to deliver how am I going to find a way through to make this believable I mean I suppose it's very different if you're all you've known is this show but when you come into something

that's such a juggernaut and has such like global viral following with so many voices and opinions of what people like about it and what characters people respond to inherently you cannot escape that in the in the in the prep process And I think, I know we talked quite a lot about where this storyline will sit

and how people will respond to things later on down the line. And I think actually what's happening at the moment, now the first part is out there, it's kind of playing out how we discuss. It's like people I think are a little bit like, people seem to be really enjoying it, but also going, what on earth is going on? Think about the twist that everybody thinks is the major reveal, which is that Reese is a figment of Joe's imagination, or at least that the Reese who's killing people.

people is. That's the end of episode 7. You still got 8, 9, 10. Yeah, you still got some puncher stuff. You still got a cage, which is a huge reveal. Still got your directorial debut, which is a major revelation. We want to talk about that to you briefly, yeah. And you've got, I mean, yeah, you've got the bridge, you've got everything. So, so to me, I think the fact that people have... Your reflection in the mirror, the final shot, yeah. Do we know any, what's going on there? Do we know anything more about... Oh, about season five? Yeah. I can either confirm nor deny. No, actually, I have no idea.

I literally have no idea. I actually don't. These backtracks are real in season five, Ed? Everyone wants you back. I mean, my personal feeling is that the writers have a major decision to make, which is like, are, is Reese along for the ride? Because it's a big decision either way. So remember how hard it was on our schedule to shoot scenes

where you are both there and not there, but there and not there. I mean, it actually made shooting. everything. It was like we didn't have that we didn't have it a lot of the time. It was it was a phenomenal lift to do justice to how Reese needed to be appearing and like and and and I and I think but then if he's of course not there it's like well so what does that mean? I mean I think I think I think I think they have a major decision before them with Kate as well like is she evil is she you know yeah what which avenue to pursue they've they've they've The reason I'm so easily able to say I have no idea is because I think they, the writers, are short of an official season five confirmation.

They just have to have the vapor, the cloud forming in their mind. But they're not, you know, they're basically three characters in one. There was the Reese Montrose, who was the mayoral candidate, who we saw giving speeches. There was the Reese author who would, you know, chat with Jonathan Moore, get to know him, share some. similarities and then there was murderous. The alter ego of Joe and actually the scene

in episode 7 at the end of episode 7 where we realized that Penn has just castrated Reese Montrose's mayoral candidate Joe. Joe. Oh Penn is a Joe Joe has castrated. It's so hard to tell you guys apart

so much in common. That's the first time that there's two of you two characters in one scene and that was phenomenal. That was incredible. Seeing you play Reese after we already know about the evil Reese, you know, you realize that those are two completely different characters. Although Sophie, to be fair. Yeah, at first, when you showed up in your suit, I thought, he has a twin brother. I quickly, I figured it out. But yeah, can you tell us a little bit more about your process? How did you, how did you do that?

I mean that was probably that particular day was a day was probably one of the hardest of the shoot but also again because I like pressure and probably so into castration castration

that's a personal hobby of mine was that actually borrowed from retribution yeah exactly make me feel like I'm sorry I'm seeing actually make me feel like a little boring and I've got an idea it's beat your body shin

this has been done once before but it went really well it was I passed my exam it's a funny it's a funny one because I remember leading up to that process

or the process to leading up to the day it being I was so for what we're concerned about how to deliver and how to execute that part because the advantage

of once the cat's out of the bag I've really felt quite passionate about as much as there was always a lot of dialogue to get my head around, which I actually really enjoyed doing that. I really liked the muscular nature of Reese's vocabulary. Once the cat was out of the bag, I felt that it was this huge liberty.

And this, it was like a liberation. I felt incredibly free in the process, which actually meant the final few episodes, although there was a lot to think about. I just felt I was able to explore and play. But in that moment, it's weird because I have, hadn't really had much of playing the real Reese. It's true, actually.

There's any three scenes, and one of them is he's getting his balls chopped off. Yeah, yeah. But what a scene. Or zip tied off, actually, sorry. Let's get it right. Finish start. Finished off. Yeah.

But prior to that, there was only, I think, two other scenes. Yeah. Maybe three. No, two. I think there's literally two, two scenes. Anyway, so he was trying to get the real version of him sort of mapped out was quite, tricky. But I also didn't feel I had to put too much difference because

it wasn't until later on in the series once the revelation comes up that this whole new side of Rees comes out because actually the Reese you see communicating early on with Joe Jonathan is very in tune with the real Rees I suppose

I guess the difficulty was is actually how to place myself mentally in that state of being tortured and what that would be like and, you know, what things I could find, you know, the substitutions could I find in my own, like, you know, what power of imagination I could use. And I will probably wax lyrical about this chap again, because I have to say what I loved about our process for months, right,

and you get it right from the off, you know, when you're in a scene with someone, and you're like, oh, no, this is going to be, this is going to be a good experience. Because a pen will always offer moments of levity and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, day-to-day life. He does. He's really good at that. Because he's a fiercely intelligent... I'm willing for free. No, but because I just felt that we... I think we had

a really strong respect. That's what I felt anyway, for one another and what one another was trying to do. And actually, we just trusted each other. So when you get to a scene like that, it all comes down to trust. And he's so great to act against. It's not a minimum requirement

because that's lazy and I don't think that's true. But you do, if you offer yourself over to someone who's going for it inherently something's going to work something's going to happen and I was pretty invested in the story as well I was I got really I was I just felt there was something very powerful about these two

and it was and also it was turning I don't know I feel it's turned what the show has been on its head a bit yeah absolutely I mean and I think that we've understood since season two that that kind of needs to happen in some manner every way so when I was pitched there's the even the the the the the the barest bones concept of this sort of this sort of

partnership between to between joe and this like entity you know that was like i was like that's probably the best way to take it and then when we started working together i was really excited because of how uh how how invested you were in in in like um what you just like you're just like you actually kind of made it fun i think in a way like it made joe fun which is really important, actually. I mean, it, it, because if we're able to have fun, that means, that means the audience is seeing

something different in Joe. That honestly, I mean, you only got shades of, with 40, played by James Scully in season two, which was another, like, a moment of an iconic pair. It's like, you know, we have a few of them throughout the series, like just people that are great. You got to pair Joe with somebody. He can really go,

head to head with and that was it was such a joy those last three episodes in my memory were just so much fun and then i was also prepping to direct so it was like just the insane schedule so to me it the the first seven episodes are of a different completely different like universe from me than the last three where we got to be um a duo in that way and just and um yeah i don't know i just remember just you in your suit and just like just diving in and chewing up those monologues and every take you were different

I mean every take you were you were different we were always trying to figure it out and I just like it's I just I just think it was brilliant it was so fun to watch I have to say it was fun to watch men I was fun to watch men

it's so great to watch men yeah well we're so fun to watch that's another podcast to watch we've got three that's a good name for a podcast Men?

No, fun to watch men. Yeah, that's a good name. No visuals. Just the podcast. So you were a character named Stephen Bonnet on a show called Outlander that was uniquely cruel to its two protagonists. I've never seen a show put the two leads through so much. And I was just wondering when you have to play heavy characters like that, how do you get out of that mindset? I think it's impossible for it not to weigh on a little bit.

I mean, especially, I think certainly some of the subject matter that Stephen. Bonnet was a part of in Outlander, yeah, it's hard to escape that. And I mean, it's something that sexual violence is, again, coming back to having children and in particular daughter, and that didn't sit well with me. And it's hard to decipher between what is telling the right thing narratively, what is actually a really, are we achieving anything creatively from here? And I think as long as it's justified creatively, I can get on with it. But it does sit with me.

I enjoy playing villainous parts. I think I certainly strive maybe. And in particular with Reese, for them not to be too like pantomime-esque, I fear that sometimes they can be. I've definitely been guilty of maybe them being that way. But I feel that with Reese, I really didn't want that. I really wanted it to be this area of grey. because, you know, that's humanity, really.

Of course, they were pushed to extremes. But also, I mean, he, he, Rees was a lot of fun to play. And we talk about confidence earlier on. I feel like I get a lot more from playing those types of people because I like trying to, I'm fascinated by trying to understand human behaviour and what makes people tick. And also what's led people to be a certain way. It's tricky with Rees because obviously

that version of Rees is a manifestation but if you ground him in what information I was given about him and the real real version I've just always been I'm drawn to those characters I suppose but they do yeah you do

there's always parts that are left lingering within you I think you have to I mean look I guess also the advantage of this show which I don't want me to do it a disservice to the right team or anything like that, I just feel that although the issues it tackles head-on

are quite heinous, there's some pretty heinous acts take place, I feel and this is why I think it's so popular, it's done in a way that allows, it allows levity and it allows the audience the chance to go, I mean, this is really completely twisted and messed up and beyond belief.

It's bananas, yeah, it is, totally. However we can get on board, we can go, oh no, it's safe, because it is so bananas, and it is, there's a, there's a, I feel there's a tongue and cheek element sometimes. There absolutely is. And that's what I mean is, I think your role was exceptionally difficult to find that balance. Yeah.

You know, I really do, and I think you did an iconic job. So I just want to commend you for that. Thank you. That's the final. Yeah, yeah. A real left turn here. Yeah, back to middle school, because we're on a show called Pod Crush. Or it doesn't have to be say, what would you, if you could visit your 12-year-old selfie,

what would you do uh i would say trust yourself believe in yourself more don't worry so much i'd still say that to my nearly 35 year old self as well because i think those it's interesting i know obviously the topic of conversation is that you know age group but i feel that i feel if someone had said that i mean and the people did say it to me along the way but I feel if I'd really believed in those things. Yeah, that's, I think the question is revolving to become like how does that person hear you?

Yeah. And I think if those messages had got through to me clearly then I would look at the look at myself differently. I'd maybe appreciate myself a bit more. I think I constantly have that battle of putting on a front of backing myself and having a

swagger around me but you know within it's not and I think yeah I think just to just to trust yourself and believe yourself a bit more, believe in yourself. Not worry about others as well in the same way. I know we talked about empathy earlier on. I'm rambling. I'm always rambling. I'm so sorry.

Well, we've got to wrap it up. You truly are a pen's match. Just get those editing scissors. There was a full stopper there at some point. That's great. And you've been so delightful. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for flying me out here.

First class. Put your kids in home school. Now let's make a TikTok. Yeah, let's make a TikTok. Two TikTok. She's not even like, she's like, this is not even a joke. We're making two. We're making two.

We're making two. On the record. Okay. You can catch Ed on Star Trek Picard, season three, out on Paramount Plus, or on you, season four, out on Netflix. Yay. And you can follow him on Instagram at Edward J. Spilliers. So I've just worked out my embarrassing story, and it's from today, whether this is usable, whether you think it's too much. I think I've just done that whole interview with my flies down, because I literally, unless they fell down doing whilst we were doing the TikTok bit.

But that's highly embarrassing, as I'm saying goodbye to everybody. I noticed it, and my awkwardness and insecurity rose to the floor. So that was good.