Podcrushed - Evan Rachel Wood

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

Penn squirms while Evan Rachel Wood reads entries from her tween diary — revealing their mutual crush on each other. Evan delights the gang by recalling the lyrics to Penn’s first love song. Want to submit a middle school story? Go to www.podcrushed.com and give us every detail. Follow us on socials!instagram.com/podcrushedtwitter.com/podcrushedtiktok.com/@podcrushedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Hey, so we just want to flag that today's episode briefly, very briefly, touches on the topic of self-harming. So if you or a loved one are self-harming or struggling with your mental health, we encourage you to seek treatment. One of the ways you can do this is you can get support from the crisis text line by texting home, H-O-M-E, to 741-7-4-1. You can also call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255.

All right, so on to today's show. The lines just got so blurry so quickly, and, you know, that informed my life later, you know, and put me in a lot of really dangerous situations because I had never been taught how to say no. In fact, I was shamed if I said no. I prided myself on, you know, you, you know, grit your teeth and do it. You know, you go as far as you possibly can, even if you're uncomfortable, even if you're cold. even if you're humiliated. Like part of being an actor,

there's this pride of like, I can take it. Yeah, I can do it. I can take it. Yeah, I can fucking take it. This is Pod Crushed. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing middle school story at a time.

And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout. We're just three beehis who are living in Brooklyn. Wanting to make stuff together with a particular.

fondness for awkward nostalgia. Well, I struggle with nostalgia. I'm here for the therapy. We have a great episode today, but before we get into it, really quick, can we get like a 20, 30 second recap from everyone's weeks? Because I feel like we've all had. No, that's too short. 20 to 30 seconds.

Penn has never done any. Penn, you've lost 10 seconds. 20 seconds left. No, you go. Sophie, go. This week was crazy because we were all on different continents. I was in Sydney with David. Penn, you're shooting in London. Now I was here in L.A.

I'm like currently trying to figure out Can I still do the podcast And move to Sydney I think let's just pause it and definitely Get our lives in order And I just got a puppy this week No actually I got him a month ago

But this week is when I really started to love him Because he had quite a turning point He's the cutest, his name is Louis And he's all over my Instagram If you guys want to check him out Penn, how's your week been? Listen guys, at least twice a week I at the end of the day

Have to spend extra time cleaning fake dirt and blood off of most of my upper body because I'm hard at work in season four of my show. Why didn't you say fake in quotation marks? It's actually real. Did I do air quotes? Well, I guess that was redundant. So I'm killing people now. Yeah. And it's just it's hard to bury them all. Wait, I never thought about that that you like you have to clean yourself off. Is that true? Well, who's going to do it? I know. I mean, I guess I just assumed that. Am I, am I a sultan? Speaking of Sultans, should we introduce Sulton Evan? I have no way to make that work.

That segue has to stay in because I, because Nava is actually brilliant. And that segue was so dumb. All right, whatever. Let's get into it. No, no, no, no, no. Let's get into it. Our guest today is actually somebody I've known since I, since we were all in middle school, slash not in middle school because we were actors together.

Her name is Evan Rachel Wood. She's an artist and activist with a long resume. She's been starring in critically acclaimed films and series for the last 20 years, including Westworld across the universe. And she was a voice actor in the iconic franchise Frozen. She also created the Phoenix Act, a nonprofit that works to organize and pass legislation to end the cycle of domestic violence. Incidentally, Evan brought a journal from when we were both like,

I guess we were about 14 years old. And I found all of my old journals. And I found the one that, I wrote in the most when Penn and I were hanging out as teenagers. And I started reading through it and I was like, I don't know if I can read this. So we had plenty to talk about. Stick around. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored?

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Louis has been going absolutely nuts for the lamb pilaf. I have to confess that he's never had anything like it, and he cannot get enough. So he's a lamb pilaf guy. keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at chewy learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed spelled try n-o-m dot com slash podcrushed why do we do what we do what makes life meaningful my name is elise lunen and i'm the author of honor best behavior and the host of the podcast pulling the thread i explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth.

Listen to pulling the thread from Lemonada Media wherever you get your podcasts. I told you guys that I brought this diary of mine, and I was just horrified to reading it. How, like, insane we all were. I had a crush on pen at this time. Because it says, well, we had another party at Penn's house. It was really fun. We really only danced. Because I'm disappointing that nothing else happened, obviously.

But I realized how hot Penn was. Whoa. He plays guitar, exclamation point, exclamation point. He played guitar and sang really well. It was so cool. That's really cute. So why is that so embarrassing, though? That's like so embarrassing for me.

He's like gripping the mic stand. I'm like, I don't know. My palms are, look at the sweat that's on the table from me just listening to this. I'm like, I still remember one of your songs. Oh, God. Please sing it. I remember the first time I ever recorded a song and I brought it over it. At Robert's Place, I think.

I remember playing it for a number of our friends. Can we get a little ream? I still got it. I mean, I can still hear it. It's such an embarrassing trope. We can edit it out. We can edit it out. It was really cute.

It's such a... Stay with me tonight. Yeah. Yeah. Go I walk in. Go are talking. No. No, but it was really good because there were like harmonies.

And I remember... Harmonies have always been my strong suits. Yeah. So right off the bat, we know that you two know each other, Evan and Penn. but we don't know the story of how you two met. So I'm wondering if you could tell us that. And also, maybe your first impressions of each other. I don't actually remember the first time.

Yeah, it was probably at some party. Or like it was pretty, it could have been very well been at the pool. It was in an apartment complex where we all hung out. Everybody lived, everybody in our circle lived there, but you, right? I moved in later. Did you move into the complex? I did. I could have sworn you always lived out.

You always seemed like. I moved in. For like one year, I lived with Robert and his family. You lived with Robert? Yes. Robert and I still joke about this because Robert and I were like sweethearts back in the day. Yeah, no, no, totally. And we somehow convinced our parents to let us live in one apartment.

This is dawning on me. I am just remembering this. So you guys were. You were definitely there. I have photos of you in that apartment. Wait a second. So I forgot. You live together and you.

Wow. Wow. And, of course, nothing happened. Because, I mean, at this point, we were probably all over, like, 14, 14, 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, it was right before I did 13. And then I lived there briefly for a time after that. And then 13 came out, and I just got completely swept away.

And that was kind of the end of my stay there. See, the way that I remember you is you always seemed like the highly credible, like, one, who was never a part of the strange situation of that apartment complex that we were all in. And we were, you know, we were all good friends. We all loved each other in a certain way. Yeah. And you're still in touch with some of those friends, right? I am, yeah.

Years ago, a lot of these kids, we were all actor kids. We were all actor kids. Yeah, tell us about the circle. So we were, there was this apartment complex in Burbank that aspiring young actors would live in while they were homeschooled and went to acting class and went on auditions. And that was sort of our life. And that was how I grew up. That's what was just normal. I think, yeah, that Mara Wilson described it as, you know, if you were a kid in Burbank, going to acting class and going out auditions was like going out for youth soccer, you know. Everybody did it.

Everybody did it. It was a whole like network. Nobody had schools. So you didn't have structure in that way. But you did have structure in the sense that you would sometimes go to work. Yeah. Wow. And you would audition. I mean, you deal with rejection on a daily basis like a daily just it's your life you often go on three auditions a day um and sometimes against your friends yeah they're there yeah wow it's very strange the picture i have of this like apartment complex is that you're all parentless I mean I'm parents with it so no so like shout out to our parents they were they were they were they were like some more than others Let's recognize just that, you know,

there's just an undeniable reality of children who end up in L.A. or Hollywood, you know, pursuing that career. You have anywhere from no to some to much talent, but which doesn't only warrant you being there. Like, it's a decision. It's a family decision or, like, non-family decision. It's a major thing, you know, hardly anybody was there with both of their parents. I don't think anybody... Everyone was coming from somewhere else. It was either Kansas or Florida or Oregon or something. They left siblings back home.

And it's like, you know, and I think often, not always, but often it's a way to try and navigate a family that is struggling to, you know, stay unified in many ways. So it's, so, you know, it's, and sometimes it could really magnify that situation. And often it does. And so, I mean, it's like, you know, look, it's a tried and true thing. child actors come from a really strange environment and it's just ultimately not healthy. Like we, like, I feel like the experience has shown the data, the data has told us it's not, but it's also like, you know, what? I mean, it's not, it's hard growing up in a lot of places.

Yeah, it's an experience like anything else that shapes you in good ways and traumatizing ways. And God bless our parents, they were trying. They were. They were. They all were trying. Yeah. I mean, everybody thought they were doing the right thing, you know. for the most part.

And I don't remember the first time I met Penn, but I remember that one of my first impressions of him was that he was different than the status quo and sort of like there was a... That's just true. There was like a crowd that was sort of into the same things and, you know, like kids do, we're all trying to be like each other

and like the same things and get in the same stuff so that we feel like we belong. And Penn was there and he was into the same stuff, but he was also just not afraid to be like, no. I'm not doing that. That's stupid. That's really... That's awesome. That's good. I'm sort of buoyed by that. I'm sort of buoyed by that idea that I stood true to my... You did. I mean, a lot of times, and because I just remember, it was one of the things that struck me about you was that, you know, you just weren't afraid to say no, or I think

that's dumb. Did I ever say yes, though? That's the... Yeah. You definitely did. Okay. All right. But I just thought, oh, that's cool. He, you know, doesn't give a fuck in many ways, which was one of the things I was like to buy you. Thanks. Thank you. The funny thing is that, like, secret, that phrase don't give a fuck is interesting because, like, I feel like it's so often the person who doesn't give a fuck, like, really does give a certain kind of fuck. You know what I mean? Like, I really remember those years with a painful insecurity. I mean, we all do, I guess, of that time. I mean, we must. Everybody's giving sober nods.

Yeah, now everyone was being rejected every day. That's true. Well, I don't know. I mean, that sounds like people who are sending in stories would beg to differ. My sense of you, Evan, was like, it was similar to what you're saying. I mean, more than any of us, you seemed like an artist, to be honest. Because also your mother seemed like an artist. Or she talked about art in a way that was not the way I think a lot of parents in those places are. The things you were working on were of a certain caliber. And they continue to be.

you know so that to me you you know i mean just look the numbers are such that not everybody can succeed you seem like you should you seem like you should have been there you seem like you should have been doing it you know you know there's a lot of people you see alongside you your friends others you're like god bless you for trying but like it's not it's not going to work it's not going to work and like and like what's happened you know it's just hard sometimes i think to watch that and i'm sure we we have friends who've grown up and you know it's like definitely does not go it continues to go south. Do you still, like, keep a journal?

I do occasionally, yeah. But I used to write in my journal all the time. By the way, I was, like, totally closeted when we were growing up together as well. Oh, really? Yeah. I, aside from having a crush on Penn. I mean, by the way, I had a crush on you, too, because it's like, what are you going to be like? Again, I was the only girl for like a while.

We were circumstitched. I mean, like, everything is circumstantial to that it. I mean, you were super cool. Yeah, yeah. I did get a crush on a girl when I was 12, and she had a crush on me, and we did actually secretly lock lips a couple of times, and I was so scared.

Like, my whole body was hot, and my heart was pounding. and I ended up breaking things off because I was so terrified of somebody finding out and then I started dating a boy and then we broke up and then he started dating her and he had no idea that any of this had taken place and I used to go on their dates with them as a favor so that they were allowed

to go out of date. Like, you know, because you couldn't two people couldn't go. Yeah. So, like, three people could. I was like, right,

you guys are 22, right? Yeah. No. No. And so that was a very strange. So I would be like sitting there in the movies with them and I had crushed.

You're a chaperone? I was the chaperone. And meanwhile, I've like dated both of them one in secret. They don't know. Like, it was such a strange place to be. That's a lot.

So I broke it off with that girl because I was too scared. It encompassed like so many feelings I had as a kid of insecurity and perfectionism and not letting anybody down and like definitely can't like girls. So I was also dealing with that and not telling anyone because, first of all, everybody in that apartment complex was constantly making gay jokes. Yeah, that's true. It was mainly, you know, geared towards the dudes, obviously. It was such a typical, I mean, like, it was a pro-tow, typical, like, very much. But that's where you were like a little different because you weren't as like bro-y, I guess. I mean, to be honest, I always wished I was.

I really thought, I mean. Yeah, you thought that was like the standard. Yeah, I really, and again, I mean, going back to the way that media plays a role in helping us develop a schizophrenia around that. Because I feel like it's like normalized, fetishized, and ostracized at the same time. And then when you're making media, like you're auditioning to play roles of people that you think that you should be aspiring to, like when you're trying to be the cool kid in a role as the cool kid, it's such a weird feedback loop because then you, in inhabiting a cool character or something along those lines, you know, like for instance, my experience even on Gossip Girl in my 20s, that was like you can make claims about wanting to be an artist as much as anybody, but you also. want to be liked and it's so hard to not be a part of the perpetuation of these tropes when you're a young person in Hollywood I think actually that's a very it's like a fine gossamer thread that one but it's really significant like you like you will do the things you saw in the American pie

both in life and then you're and then you're like auditioning to play these people and thinking that you're like, but you're insecure about it. And then, you know, it's a real, like, life-imitating, art imitating. It's like an intense feedback group. I remember doing projects as a teenager and never feeling like anybody was getting it right. And then I was always wearing clothes and doing things and thinking, like, nobody dresses like this. Kids don't talk like this. Why are you making me do this?

Like, it's a lie. Like, this is a lie. Which is why 13 was refreshing because I was like, oh, this is actually how it is. more of the like extreme version of it but it felt more authentic to me you just didn't have anything else to relate to I still feel that way sometimes even as an adult you know and especially now that I'm older and I can actually like read between the lines of what I'm doing and what messages I'm putting out there you start becoming like slightly horrified and you're like wait I am also still in a corporation that has certain values that they want to be normalized

and they need me to sell it and I have a hard time with it more nowadays. Penn doesn't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I've just, nothing but question marks. Yeah. Can't relate. But yeah, and it's easier to get swept away and be like taking advantage of in that way when you're a teenager too because, again, you're just like more likely.

Well, I don't even know if you're more likely to just do what you're told. I think, again, it's just what people experience in Hollywood is just an extreme version of what everyone is experiencing. I really, it puts it in a very weird kind of context and make. it very visible to other people, but that's maybe the extent of it. It's honestly not, I don't think it's exceptional. Such a mess during those times. In the same way, I think everyone was like, man, she's, like you said, supposed to be doing this. And I think my mindset was, I'm supposed to be doing this, but I never really asked myself if like it was what I wanted

to do. I was going through so much behind closed doors. Like I was self-harming. From, I think, I think it started when I was 13 or 14. So, like, you know, even when I was coming over, like, I always had, like, a wristband or, like, bracelets or something on. Like, so that started around that time. I don't think anybody really, I think I told anyone. That's news to me. Yeah. I do remember the bracelets.

There you go. Wow. I do. Yeah. So that's why. And I just remember feeling like no one was listening to me. and like or that I was being seen at all. Like especially, I mean, there was a lot going on with me and my mom at that time.

She was like a single mom. I was like a child actor. There's like a lot, you know, like there's a lot going on there. I know nothing about what you were talking about. No, not at all. Bless her heart, you know, like I love my mom and she really like did her best with what she had. That's what we all do. But one of the things that I loved about it was being able to be.

at that apartment complex and be with the kids like that was the best part and going to acting class because that was the time I got to be with people in my own age. All right.

So let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you?

You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean In the sense of vanity, I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down,

I want to know that I'm, that I'm being held down some other way physically, you know. My family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so, honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it?

called liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it you know anti-aging and then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8 which is really good for for I think mood and stress I sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible honestly you don't even need to mix it with water and yeah I just couldn't recommend them highly enough

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of IXL. Don't miss out. One in four students in the U.S. are learning with IXL, and IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And Podcrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up today at Iexl.com slash podcrushed. Visit Ixl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. It sounds like you've been touching on this a little bit, but I had a question for both of you because this podcast centers on people's middle school experiences and you've both had kind of unusual or not the typical ones. Non-middle school. Yeah. They did not go to middle school. We never. But we were that age. Yeah. It was

more like we were in boarding school, honestly, because we were all staying in one place and doing school together, you know, and we're kind of confined to that compound. That's true, yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you would know otherwise because it was sort of the water you swim in, but how do you feel like being in the industry impacted your coming of age? And would you ever be comfortable with your kids entering the industry? I get asked this question all the time. My answer is always no, just purely because there's an age of consent for a reason, you know, because you're not able to objectively make decisions that big for your life without the experience or anything to compare it to.

And for me, it was just so easy to be a conditioned people pleaser. And because I was really good at what I did, I felt like I had to do it and I couldn't let people down and I had to pursue this because I would be throwing something away if I didn't. And the lines just got so blurry so quickly. and, you know, that informed my life later, you know, and put me in a lot of really dangerous situations because I had never been taught how to say no.

In fact, I was shamed if I said no. I prided myself on, you know, you, you know, grit your teeth and do it. You know, you go as far as you possibly can, even if you're uncomfortable, even if you're cold, even if you're humiliated. Like part of being an actor, there's this pride of like, I can take it. Yeah, I can fucking take it. And that's not even, it's funny because what you're saying is often, I think, gendered, but I think in our industry,

It's really not, that part of it is not gender. Like you just, you just say yes, you just do what you got to do. You do what the moment calls for, you do what the role calls for. It's like even something is seemingly innocuous as shooting a scene in the rain at three in the morning can be like truly arduous depending on what, I mean, it's like, you know, you shoot it for eight hours at a time, there's no real way to get dry or warm. You've got to emote, and in this case in my show, like express rage constantly. And, you know, and it just takes a toll on you that in the,

beginning you can only see so far into it for a series for a scripted series you you don't know exactly where it's going to go you got a sign in the dotted line and then you virtually have to do whatever they write you know yeah the point is is that i think for an actor but which a lot of young people can relate to it has to do something with like as you said like people pleasing like it's i mean boiling it down to like that age what are you grappling with you're grappling with being accepted you're grappling with like what how do i how do i how do i have self-worth how do i what what like what is it to value myself and there's something about the industry that takes that that mysterious difficult process anyway and it like throws rocket fuel all over it

and so I think for a kid you know if my stepson or my son when they're my stepson's 12 so if he was to say something like that now it would just be like well first of all it's up to his parents but then I'd be like no when you're a teenager we can reassess the question depending on your actual desires. And then with my son, I think it'd be the same. It's like once you're in the 15, 16, 17 range, we can talk about, like, why you want to. Yeah.

And see maybe how we can address that, because it has to do with artistry. But like just going to L.A. And like, what, like auditioning, agenting and all that stuff? Ooh. Oof. We're both cringing. Yeah.

Hardcore. So no, no. I don't think so. It deprives you of a lot of life experience and socialization that I took for granted until I realized that I had such a hard time relating to people when I became an adult because I only knew how to be a kid navigating an adult world, not an adult in an adult world. I think you just named the hardest barrier in my life. I'm going to have to excuse myself.

Ever mature what, it was nice having you. I have a question. Evan, you mentioned that some of these, like, early experiences primed you to always say yes and not be able to, like, assert your boundaries. And so for anyone who's listening and thinking about setting boundaries, do you have any advice now that you've sort of reflected on your own experience? I mean, I'm still working on it. But, I mean, get comfortable saying no. Get comfortable not being light. to get comfortable having bad things being said about you

and be comfortable walking away and knowing that you're going to be okay and all these things are easier said than done and it's hard when like your livelihood is on the line and your dreams are on the line and your self-respect is on the line and you know we all make compromises with ourselves all the time to get the things that we need

but I guess it's just knowing where your line is and staying true to that but it's a different world now. Like, people can speak up more now than they could before, which is amazing. And it's been amazing to watch that shift happen. Because especially when we were coming up, especially for girls, it was just like, I feel like we're, we're of like maybe the last generation where it really was like the super binary norms. And there was no, like, it was like the nerds and the jocks that still existed.

Whereas it feels a bit different now. It definitely feels different now. And, like, people who are a little bit younger than us, like, they might not even have quite the same. We still, it was like, it was like a movie. Ours, like, I feel like that time as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, was still like an 80s movie. One hundred percent. Whereas young people now, they're just not quite, they understand those archetypes are not, they're not as desirable. I think, I think we, we have a young generation.

It's, like, conscious of these things. Like, they can say toxic masculinity. Can you believe that? Like, they can say, they can talk about white privilege. It's amazing. I mean, like, that's unbelievable. At the same time, do we really think that's going to solve everything? I mean, obviously, it's easier than done.

Because so much comes from experience, too. So it's like, I can tell people how to assert your boundaries and, you know, people tried to tell me, but you just don't know until you're in that position. And, of course, it starts with how we're raised, you know. And it goes back to the parents, too. And, like, if they gave you an environment where you could speak up and have a voice and where you had the freedom to figure out who you were and what you wanted and to test things, and to be able to fail in a safe place.

To know what security feels like. To know what insecurity feels like, to know what failure feels like, to know, yeah, what it feels like when your boundaries being crossed and to be able to be guided through that and, you know, not too sheltered from it and not too just like, yeah, you'll be fine, figure it out.

You know, it's like this crazy balance. So, I mean, I think that would have helped me a lot if I had had a better kind of training ground where I could be messy and I had somebody guiding me through it. I think I was just held to such crazy standards at such a young age and so much was expected of me, so much that I had never learned and never knew how to do.

I was just like I was expected to already know how to do it from day one. And I had no idea what I was doing. I knew I had to be a good actor, but I had no idea how to assert anything else because I never learned it. So it backfired pretty hard. You know, everyone always says instincts. Like you have to listen to your instincts.

And honestly, that is hard. It is hard. but it is true. I mean, because in so many, so many cases, like you can always kind of trace it back to that moment that you ignored, you know? And that's so true. We were just talking about this the other day that, like,

you usually have a gut feeling that you had or, like, some whisperings. I think, like, as human beings, we're, like, so bad at listening to our intuition, just in general. And I think too much noise. Yeah. We're gifted in that way. Like, we have an intuition and we have a feeling, and we're just taught to, like, ignore it.

like, oh, it's normal. That's just how that person is or, yeah, there's so many things. We're also taught to see the good in people, and sometimes that's not always the best advice. Like, I was just raised in a way that was like, always see the good. And like, everyone's got some good in them. And, you know, and that, like, got me in a lot of trouble because I would, I would overly kind of defend.

Like, some people are just assholes and you have to walk away. You know what I mean? That's true. That's a boundary. That's a boundary. It also sounds like what you're describing is discernment. Like, how do you? you teach a young person to have good judgment and to have discernment and to be able to

recognize when someone there is some good in them that can be nurtured and that's great and when someone actually is someone that you should stay away from or that that particular relationship isn't going to be healthy and actually it's better to not have it because I think we also have this cultural thing of like don't judge but actually we're all making judgments all the time so how do we make good judgment how do we discern between truth and falsehood and what judgments to act on or like yeah like what judgments to listen to yeah exactly exactly Because even in, you know, the people you have to draw boundaries with, that doesn't mean they don't have good in them.

It's like this idea that there's good in everybody, it's not necessarily false. It just means that they're not always capable of... Expressing their highest. Yeah, their highest self, yeah. And some people cause harm, and you shouldn't be exposed to that harm. So one of the things that we like in this show is this,

it's this idea that, like, there's there's there's there's a significance to this period like you know 12 marks a threshold before which and after which there's a difference so I guess thinking about what you were struggling with then knowing that a lot of times by the time you're our age you're still struggling with a lot of the same things but it's just you know you've learned something what is there any advice you would give middle school Evan if if I had been able to just like be out as a teenager, I can't even tell you how different my life would have been. Because I think so much of my insecurity and self-hatred

and a lot of things came from this internalized homophobia that I didn't even know I had. And I would just love to be able to go back and be like, hey, date a girl. Like, it's totally fine. Please just do it. Please just go be yourself. It's fine. I swear to you in like 10 years, everyone's going to be doing this. It's not even going to be a thing.

Like go. Just go. Be yourself. You know, I would, I would beg myself to do that and tell myself to like calm down a little man because I think I was like, I was very attracted to drama, which I guess like a lot of people are at that age. It's just like that's how it's all playing out. You all think you're living like an episode of the real world. In fact, that just reminded me that my brother filmed a fake real world episode with all of us that he edited together. to see the light of day. There's an interview with you in it. I remember, I mean, your brother was like super artsy and really into film. That exists somewhere. Thank you, Evan, for coming. The door is behind you.

You're definitely in it. Yeah, I would probably, like, I would tell myself to go talk to my mom deeply. That's great. Like, go deeply talk to your mother. Yeah, and sit her down and open, you know, find the words and ask her questions and really like get in there with her i think yeah that would be like one of the main things i would do what would you do um nala do you're we're gonna yeah we're gonna

yeah i phone a friend would you like to phone a friend uh what would i do actually the talking to the parents is a good one i would definitely tell myself to like find ways to deepen relationships with with both parents and other family members. Because by the time I found myself in my 20s, I did not have strong family bonds really like. And, you know, a lot of people who are in their 20s in New York, I think probably feel similarly. You know, they're in New York because they're ambitious

and seeking a career of some kind. It's often creative. Yeah, if you're like in your 20s in New York, you're probably getting far away from your family. Yeah, there's like, by and large, I mean, it's certainly, it's certainly like a high, proportion of people like that. But then I think you're right. It like circles back around and you get older and especially after you have children. You know, it changes your entire relationship

to your family and how you think about them and want to relate to them. Yeah. And yeah, if you realize, wow, I haven't actually put anything into this. Talking to parents. That's a, that's a deep one. I'm still learning how to do that one, by the way. Yeah. I have a question for both of you as parents. obviously your kids will have agency and we'll chart their own course but what are your highest hope for your kids when you sort of look into their future? I mean

there's moments where I'm like wow I you are a white male and I can really fuck this up if I don't do this right you know so like that responsibility don't But, yeah, if I can instill in him a sense of vulnerability and redefines what masculinity and strength means in a way that's not to step on and demean, but to protect and lift up and defend and, you know, this like warrior-like energy that I hope I can give him rather than

like a destroyer. I'd be very happy with that. And if you know, if he's, if he felt like he could be who he was and talk to me about anything. I mean, that is one thing. I think because I didn't talk to my parents really at all, especially when I was a teenager, about anything. I was also raised in like an abstinence-only kind of situation. Like I was at no sex education, like literally nothing. So one thing I always make a point of saying every time he says,

Mom, can I ask you something? I always respond. You can ask me anything. That's touching. Yes, you can ask me anything. anything because he might not even notice I'm doing that but I hope that one day if he's grappling whether or not he can ask me something that that will be on a loop in his head you know that he can ask me anything I really like that yeah my stepson is 12 and my son is uh like 10 months

wow um so weird I know right because in some ways it's like I'm like you look the same I feel like I kind of look the same it's very it's like we both have kids What on earth is happening? And he's going to be, mine's going to be 12 tomorrow. Soon. Like he's turning eight this year. So that's, you know,

that three years is going to just, he's going to be 12. And I'll be like, you are the age I was when I was at the Kenwoods and that's going to freak me out. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think,

I do like this, always encouraging them to ask questions, you know, and on my highest hopes, you know, if he could be, if, well, both of my boys could grow up by the time they're in the 20s to really want to, like, live a life of service.

I can't imagine a greater sense of, like, relief. As a parent. Yeah. Wow, you're helping. Somebody said something to me that just simplified everything so much about being a parent, especially when you start spitting out and you're wondering if you're doing it right. They looked to me, they said,

isn't it amazing? All you have to do is love them. That's all you have to do. Wow. And I was like, wow, yeah, that really is. Like, you can fuck up so hard, but if at the center of it, you just unconditionally love your kids,

like they're going to be fine. And that gets me through a lot. Yeah, when you're really doubting yourself, like, no, all you have to do is let them be who they are and love them. Yeah, that's really interesting, because I think because of great hopes for your children, even if it's like somewhat, if it's like a selfless hope, like, I just want you to be all you can be, the structures you try to set up to create the space for that growth or the channel for that growth, you're human and you're going to get in the way. Human and your ego is going to become, you know. And your trauma is going to get in the way.

Yeah, I mean, completely. Like that is like, that's what parents. That's the hardest part about parenting for me. is when you see and you feel yourself doing something that you know you shouldn't do that is your trauma and you watch it get transferred on your kid. And it's inevitable. This is, in little ways and big ways, but it happens and you know what's happening and you see it happening and there's nothing you can do.

And you just go, okay, that is now yours. I'll see you in therapy. I'm so sorry. I did my best. Anyway, I cut you off. No, no, I was kidding you up. But I was just going to say I saw this thing the other day. And it was like, if trauma can be passed through generations, then hopefully healing can too.

I thought that was so sweet. Like if you do take the time to be, like, reflective and really try to heal those parts of yourself that have been wounded, then that will also pass on to your children. Thank you so much, Evan. This has been such a delight. Yeah, really. Thank you. for having me. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel

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in addition to relishing penn's discomfort during evan's reading of her journal i also really appreciated that evan shared with us a little bit about boundaries and consent and how important those ideas are today's story is a really interesting one today's listener submitted story the tone in which it was written is really funny and kind of light but it does actually touch on deeper deeper themes of boundaries and what happens when your friends violate them. So without further ado, the leotard. Nice tag daming.

It all started on a Friday night during the summer of 2003. I was a prepubescent 12-year-old girl and not one of those really grown-up-looking 12-year-olds, you see, running around on Instagram. No, I was awkward as hell. I had baby fat and buck teeth with rainbow braces and cowlick bangs. They were hot, but everything else was bad.

So my mom picked me up from dance class. was driving me to my friend Alana's 12th birthday party. A boy girl party. It was a big deal because my crush, Scott Scotson, was going to be there. I made my mom bring me my favorite t-shirt to throw over the embarrassing leotard I had to wear for dance class. This shirt was my absolute favors and made me feel like a fashion icon. It had a cat on it, but she was like a French cat,

beret, sunglasses, lipstick, you get it. And it had the words, it's a perfect day, right? written across the bottom in sparkly pink letters, this shirt was going to catch Scott Scotson's eye and make him fall in love with me. I just knew it. I arrived a little late to the party. So when we pulled up to Alana's house,

all my friends were hanging out in the front yard waiting. Poor moi. All the girls ran up to the cars I got out and yelled, Let us see your leotard, Katie. Let us see your leotard, Katie. And I immediately turned bright red, hoping that Scott was not paying attention. He was.

And then he called from a car. across the yard. Yeah, Katie, lift up your shirt and let us see. This sent my friends into a tizzy of giggles. I wanted to die. They just kept chanting, like kids in a cults who'd never seen a leotard, and it was like a leotard cult?

I had to grip the bottom of my shirt to keep them from pulling it up. I ran into the house straight to the bathroom. I ripped off my leotard, tossed it in the trash, let out a sigh of relief. I walked out of that bathroom to join my friends at that table. Finally, I'm safe. I wasn't, though.

Unbeknownst to me, in the fleeting moments I'd spent in the bathroom, my friends had cooked up a plan to reveal my leotard. By the way, at this point, I know exactly what you're thinking. Why were these kids so obsessed with Katie's leotard? I don't know. Kids are fucking weird and mean. Okay, back to the story. As I stepped out of the bathroom, two kids ran up to me and restrained both of my arms,

while a third assailant, Cassie, grabbed the bottom of my shirt and pulled it up. Well, the leotard was gone, and my bare undeveloped chest was flashed to the whole party, including Scott. Everyone went completely silent. Cassie looked like she was about to cry. Good. I thought, let her feel bad for what she just did to me. The room was silent For the most painful ten seconds of my life Scott was the first to speak

Turning to our buddy Josh he proclaimed Now it's a real party While high-fiving him My moment of humiliation blew over quickly As many things do when you're 12 But damn was it embarrassing However, it all came full circle when we started school that fall as eighth graders all grown up. Cassie got her period on the first day and bled all over the back of her skirt.

I'd like to say I took no pleasure in her misfortune that I was above feelings of shouting Freud. But nine, I laughed silently in the back row, and she ran out of the room in tears. To me, justice had been served. You can catch Evan Rachel Wood in the HBO series Westworld in the upcoming film Weird, the Al Yankovic story, or you can just follow her online at Evan Rachel Wood. Podcrushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navick Avalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer and editor is David Ansari. Our secondary editor is Sharaf and Twistle.

Special thanks to Peter Clowney, VP of Content at Stitcher, Eric Eddings, Director of Lifestyle Programming at Stitcher, Jared O'Connell and Brendan. for the tech support, and Shrutti Marante, who transcribes our tape. Podcush was created by Navakavalen and is executive produced by Penn Badgley and Navakaval and produced by Sophie Ansari. This podcast is a ninth mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcresh. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcush.com and give us every detail.

And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials, or we're telling everyone that your mom still walks through the bus stop. You don't want that. It's at Pod Crush, spelled how it sounds, and our personals are at Pem Badgley, at Nava, that's Nava with three ends, and at Scribble by Sophie. And we're out. See you next week. And then we played Truth or Dare, and I had to kiss Josh. That's Josh Peck, by the way. And Josh still tells this story because apparently it was his first kiss, and he's never forgotten it.

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