Podcrushed - Geri Halliwell-Horner

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Geri Halliwell-Horner — the singer you may know best as *the* Ginger Spice from the Spice Girls — joins us to talk about her first experiences navigating fame as a Spice Girl, her lifelong journey with spirituality, and her NYT best-selling fantasy novel for young readers “Rosie Frost and the Falcon Queen."  Follow Podcrushed on socials:TikTokXInstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada And I had this kind of romantic idea. You know, when I was writing, that you should always be in a slight discontentment. You know, if you're in love, then it steals your creativity. So I kept myself purposely away from love. Really? Yeah, definitely. I wrote better songs.

Look at what happens. Look at how successful Adele was with all the heartbreak. It helps. You turn that peep to personalizer. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie. And I'm Navar. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Trying to decipher what they're saying when they go, da-na-na-na-man-na-na-na-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Welcome to Podcrushed. That's good. You've never done a little voice like that. Or what was that a song?

I don't know. I don't know. It was regrettable. I was just thinking to myself the other day. I want to sing more. the podcast. I love that. That's very timely for today. That's great. I guess today was a spice girl.

And I want to know. You'll find out in a sec. I want to know what would your spice name have been? Or what is your spice name? Surly spice. Surly spice. Surly spice. Yes.

That's great. I mean, I think yours is obviously pensive spice, but okay, we'll go with surly spice. Surly spice has a nice ring to it. It does. Mine would be softy spice. Softie spice. That's really cute.

That's cute. As the person to ask the question, I should have an answer but I know. No, I'm panicking. I know, I know, I know. Hippocris.

What is HIPA spice mean? Hippocratical. Were you thinking hippo? I was like hippopotamist. Like, geez, Ben. No, my goodness. Wasn't even on my radar. He's her friend of Jpacris.

Fats spice. Chunky spice. That's cute. You guys heard it from Penn. I'm junkie spice. What's your real spice name? I can't think of one. You really can't think of one.

Chatty spice. Oh, that's good. I like to talk. I like to chat. Articulate. Yeah. Particulate. Chatty spice.

Articius spice. I'm just thinking of doing it. Softy spice, surly spice, and chatty spice. That's cute. Wait, I need to make like a Photoshop thing about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'll be great. We're really lucky that Jerry Halliwell, our guest, is probably not going to listen to this episode. Because if she did, she would be like, would these three, first she would say two and then correct herself and say three, the same way I said four and had to correct myself and say five, which is a little Easter egg for the interview, if you listen to it.

She would be like, what are these three going on about the effing spice girls? She's an author. She is a United Nations ambassador and philanthropist. Most recently, she's released a YA book called Rosie Frost and the Falcon Queen. We've got her here today. It was a quick, potent hit. Jerry Hallowell, you're going to want to stick around for this. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored?

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Media wherever you get your podcasts. It's very nice to meet you. Okay, I've got another question for you. Wait a second. Wait a second. This is our interview of you. Jerry, you're hijacking. This is good So I just started thinking, oh my God, this is really interesting. Yeah. So I was thinking, okay, so you're this success, you've been a great actor. You've done those two shows that are very good. Yeah. Well done.

Thanks. But then I was thinking, why is he swapped to do this? To do this. Yeah. What made you go? I can't for life of me remember why. You're curious? You want to be in control?

No, no. I think, so it actually has to do with these two on the screening here. Okay. So Sophie and Navarre. Yes. Why? Go and explain. Did you say, I think it's a really good idea, Penn. Well, I would say I think Penn is also, Penn loves to have meaningful conversations.

And that's really what this is about. Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I mean, that does go, that's broadly. But so we're all, all three of us are Baha'is. We're a member of the Baha'i faith. Have you ever heard of that? No, but pray tell, I want to hear. Well, I can't, I can tell you more, but the clock is ticking.

Okay. And we have priorities. No, basically the concept that animates it is the oneness of God, which is to say we're all of an origin, which is mysterious and unknown, ultimately, no matter what your perspective is, that the spirit that animates this age, which comes from that unknowable source, is our essential oneness.

And for all the diversity that is inevitable, that there is this identity of the soul that unites us, that we must realize in this age, Otherwise, we will see, you know, the sort of societal collapse in stages we're seeing around places. But once we realize our inherent nature, which is noble and divine and honorable and pretty glorious, and we treat each other as such, and we build social institutions to reflect that, unless and until we do that, there's no unity to be had. There's no justice that will last. And so we need to work to encourage those qualities in others and ourselves. That's so beautiful.

Yeah. And the founder of the faith is Baha'u'llah. What's his name? Baha'u'lla. Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah. So that means the glory of God in Arabic. Yeah.

That's gorgeous. Yeah, it is gorgeous. We can talk more about that. I do want to interview you. I would love to talk more about. But it's nice to know who I'm speaking with. Do you mean? Yeah, yeah.

I think you've been quite forthcoming in a lot of your interviews passed and you're clearly reflective, you know, you've shared in your home life that it was somewhat challenging, right? If that's fair to say. I think no upbringing is perfect and we all navigate our way through it and find different ways to, you know, get through those challenges. When I was a little girl, when my mother was at work, I actually got brought up on American television. I watched the Waltons, you know, and it gave you that, you know, American Andrean that ideolisms. Who are they again?

Is that that, is that that... Good night, grandpa. Good night, ginae, grandma. Do you don't remember the Wartons? That's a great accent. No. Okay. Which show?

Which show? Is it the Warton? The Wartons. The Walthons. The Walthans. Okay. The Waltons. Maybe if I say it.

He's like, oh yeah, the Walthins. Your father and mother would absolutely know the Walthins. Anyone over a certain age would know it. But it was a miracle. Because idealism of family. Okay. And so we all have that, like, the ideal version of what it is. But what family is perfect?

Well, not. I was also brought up on the A-team, which you must know that. Of course I know. And Charlie's Angels, that American optimism. I think, you know, America taught me, you know, that anything is possible. Yeah. I love that about America. I don't think I would be as successful as I have been if it was.

wasn't for American values, that sort of instilled in me through television. Apart from that kind of pop culture influence you were getting, was it otherwise quite British in that there was like a sort of, you know, stay in your lane, maybe stay humble, whatever that is. I think it's generational. Yeah. You know, my father was like a very political broadsheet reader. My mother, she's spanned. My father's not alive anymore. He died when I was young. But my mother, she's Spanish. And so, you know, she comes from a generational or there's just, you know, just keep your feet on the ground, hard work, show up, and that's it.

Right. So, but it was definitely like movies and books that taught me, yeah, you can go for it. Sylvester Salone. Another one. Right, yeah. Rocky. Classic. He's got an amazing backstory.

So, so if you can just, like, sort of paint a portrait, just give us a snapshot of Jerry at, say, 13 years old. Okay, so my family, you know, didn't have, like, a high income. And we came from sort of the back end of Watford, which is fine. But then I, two children from my school, me and another girl, got picked, go to this grammar school. Grammar school in England, that's quite, they're kind of smart kids. You have to take a test to get in. And, you know, and you've got some quite high-brived families going to that.

But I, so I was the only kid and one other girl at this sort of, school what for girls grammar which was amazing opportunity but I definitely felt fish out of water so to speak so you know that was an interesting time because then it was me that chose like to I thought oh that would be I'll give it a go did that make you feel like a certain drive for financial success like from a young age like how did that sort of not fitting in with everyone on that level impact you what I learned was education is power I think in hindsight I learned that and it gives you confidence. But I think, you know, going back to that American drive

is that, you know, if you have success, it definitely gives you power no matter where you're from. You know, I was buying into that American dream 100%. You know, my father, like he was much, he was an older family father, he brought me up on Shirley Temple. You know, the way I got his attention was singing, I'm the good ship lollipop. Oh, really?

Yeah, that was the way. So that was like the origin of performance for you? Yeah, 100%. And how old is that? Like five or something? Like six. Okay. He took me to an acting agent, you know, to be an Annie, all those things.

But then my mother, she's Spanish, she says, I don't want you to end up like Judy Gallen. You know what happened to Julie Garland. That's what she says. She was very grounded about it. So I had to wait, you know, to until I, you know, I had to get my education first. My mother was very grounded. She said, I want you to have a proper job. So even.

let's say again, you know, you're coming of age, 12, 13, 14, into your teen years, are you still harboring this desire to be a performer of some kind? Well, it was a way of getting my father's attention, definitely. Okay. And I think, you know, it's a mixture. So you can get intoxicated by what you see on television. You say, oh, if only it's like you being on that program. You thought, oh, if only on that.

Yeah, then you're happy. Then you're everything. Yeah, blah, blah. And we all know how that shows it's up. So, but I, what was very, very true to me was I loved creating. I always loved the power of the pen. Okay. No matter what I did.

You know, I'm no Mariah Carey. You know, I don't have her range. And I love Maria. Oh, who does? But I always loved songwriting, storytelling. I studied theatre as well. I like character. You've talked about it.

You know, that sort of unpacking things, character. You know, you can do that through song. You can do that through story, through acting. Yeah, definitely. It's like potent self-reflection. Yeah, and you can sort of use it. Yeah, definitely. Jerry, what were your experiences around your first love and first heartbreak?

Wow, that's so interesting. Because we all have that, like, again, TV love, movie love, let's call it, and we think what that love is. Which is mostly fantasy, I suppose. Of course, yes. Let me try and think. I don't think I really knew what real love is until, there are two things. You know, being a mother that taught me about love.

Totally, yeah. But then also my husband, that's taught me what love is, you know, to be brave and show up, you know, honestly and wholeheartedly. Before then it was probably, you know, I might have had an idea of what. it was but I wasn't really emotionally available and I had this kind of romantic idea you know when I was writing that you should always be in a slight discontentment don't you know if you're in love then it steals your creativity so I kept myself purposely away from love really yeah definitely I wrote better songs look at what happens look at look how successful Adele was with all her heartbreak it Help.

You turn that thief to fertilizer. My husband is a musician and I'm always pushing him like you've never written a song about me we've been married six years now and he's like, I can't we got married and it's too happy

it's too good like there's no one's interested in that yeah, there's no process in it in reflection. Well done, you're happy. So if you have to stage a fight just to get a song out of it. Yeah, look at the best ones.

Yeah, I kind of have this ongoing theory that being, you know, as an artist of any kind, but I think particularly music, because music is a space where you tell these three-minute encapsulated love stories. And it's like there's no time for anything other than just a really well-told story. And, you know, there's no, there's no low in a pop song, as there shouldn't be. Like, it's all good. So, but then if you become really successful, you get, you're thrust into this echelon of experience that no one else knows it actually can often be quite alienating from the people in your life all that stuff and and you

know you're touring you're recording it's such a it's such an incredibly different way of being that no one could imagine until they experience it and i have a theory that for better worse it kind of locks you the person who got there by by telling some kind of often a love story that is like there's got to be some truth to it because it got you there right yeah but then it locks you you in this pattern of life where you can't any longer have as many authentic experiences in love as you used to. And I'm curious, A, do you think that's true, but B, do you, did you ever, like, I'm curious what your conversations with when you were a part of the Spice Girls and when the four of you

were, five of you. Just, we're talking, five, sorry. Navas. When the five of you were talking. Yeah. Like, did you have conversations like this about it? I have a theory which may be, like, bouncing off what you're saying. Okay.

That when anybody becomes famous, and it doesn't matter who it is, whether it's, you know, a singer or an actor or a sportsman, you know, that kind of fame, it can arrest your emotional development. And what you're talking about it, and it's sort of like freezes your experience, life experience, because before that, you're in the thick of it, you're processing it, and then suddenly you're removed from it. So it could quite easily you can get into like a safety bubble

of, so you're not sort of tapping into reality anymore. Totally. I think that's, but then, you know, I learned that's a choice as well. I agree with that, yeah. Because otherwise, you know, you could be in, it's almost like a golden cage, you know, so you're safe as houses, but actually you might be shutting yourself off from certain.

experiences in safety but you're shutting yourself up from love and humanity that's what you stand for and you know in life that there's just as much interesting people whether it's the dustman or the duchess the prime minister or the president or the postman everybody's interesting i'd like to think and then also you cut yourself off from creativity you know that's what makes a good actor you know or a good writer if you can experience those kind of ugly and dark happy all sorts of feelings and how you can connect. So I think it's really important to stay with your feet on the ground, stay connected. How do you think you've done that?

And it's not perfect, but I think, you know, who I surround myself and what is meaningful to me. I mean, the gift of age, you sort of, you like who you like, you attract what you are. And, you know, I just, I try to sort of attach myself to, you know, people need people. You're talking about that community. I think people need people. Not perfectly. Just have real people, real meaningful relationships. Not sort of empty, I think.

I think you go through that process. Stick around. We'll be right back. All right, so let's just, let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you?

You know, on like a one to ten. And I don't mean in the sense of vanity, I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the world. a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to

know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, the liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. Comes out in the packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for

gut health and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer

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I think the world needs a new hero, an ordinary hero. Somebody, you know, that isn't an alpha, that, you know, doesn't have all the answers. And so I always think if you can see it, you can be it as well. And wouldn't it be interesting if you could see someone that finds the courage they never knew they had and that you see characters around there? For example, boys, the boys are strong, but the boys do cry, you know, and the girls can save the boys. And you can have that. We're talking about, you know, faith or spiritual hunger,

but you wrap the vegetables in chocolate, so to speak. So it's big action, page turning for the reluctant reader. But in there, there's a spiritual value of sustenance, of empowerment. That's what I like to do. So if you want it, it's there. And if you don't, you're just going to get entertained and enriched and maybe inspired. And, you know, I'm curious. are like history and conservation, and that's all in there too.

Yeah. Yeah, I like the way you weave that in. So what drew you to this age group, do you think? Well, for me, the best things are, you know, touch everybody. It doesn't matter how old you are. So the novel that I've written, hopefully you'll enjoy it. My husband read it, and he's a reluctant reader. He was like, he just did it out of politeness, but actually he was just trying to be supported.

But he said, actually, he said with a surprise look on his face, I really enjoyed it. And I kept on page turning because I wanted to find it. out what happened. But having said that, let's go back to the age you're talking about, and it's a vulnerable age, you know, whether it's 13, the coming of age, I think, I mean, for me, I found, you know, courage and inspiration from the world around me, whether it's through literature or through movies, and that you're discovering things. And so, you know, Rosie Frost, she really does that.

She finds a courage she never knew she had. I love that. you mentioned earlier in this conversation that part of your motivation for performing was to maybe impress your father or to get closer to him and I've also heard you say in another interview that I'm just going to read it so I don't mess it up I think you said sometimes I don't think I would have become famous if I if it wasn't for my father's death and I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about a little bit more about that and also maybe about your relationship with your father okay so I at the time when my father died I was studying Hamlet right if anyone knows Hamlet is about he you know he gets he gets stuck he loses his own father

and he sort of procrastinates and when my father died I was young so I was in late teens and I got the exact same like I got stuck because not only I lost my father I suddenly got aware of my own mortality

because if you think about it we have our parents no matter what we do in life we know that they're there and then you remove the parent it's like you're facing your own mortality you're staring the face of your own death.

So then suddenly it woke me up to my own life that I'm here, I'm next, so I better make the most of it. So I always think it's like, I call it death energy. It's like a gas in my tank. And I suddenly thought, oh my God, I've got to make something of my life.

It was very sort of vital time for me. It was poignant. It was like this ferocity in my tank, so to speak. But I was also avoid. pain, pain of bereavement. And in Eastern philosophy, they talk about death all the time. In the West, I found I was embarrassed and I didn't want to hurt, you know, embarrass anybody's feelings or, you know, make them feel uncomfortable.

So I sort of buried it. So in Rosie Frost, she loses her mother. And it's just there if you want it, but you feel her grief. She's really angry. Like she doesn't know what to do with it. She sort of buries it. And a very British stiff upper lip, don't just silence is your shield. so to speak.

And so through her, it gives you permission, anyone that's grieving, old or young, watch her grief. Because it's a very strange thing to have to process. We don't have many examples of it. It's true. And it's a one guarantee thing. It's coming to all of us

and to our loved ones around us. Of course, yeah. And we talk about that a lot here. Yeah, we do. I love that you think about that, Jerry, and that you're sort of trying to find a way to incorporate it for your readers to have an encounter.

or with death if they haven't yet. I think that's so meaningful and important. This is a very abrupt pivot, but this is a story that I'm sure you've told many times, but we would love to hear your story of how you became part of one of the most iconic, maybe the most iconic girl groups of all time and maybe some reflections on that experience.

And actually attaching it to the fact that it sounds like right around the same time you lost your father. Is that accurate? So that's very intense. Yeah, it was very intense because I think we all look to belong. I think we all want to feel part of something

and so I was really grieving but I was sort of like frozen in a sense and I remember so when I met the others you know I was going through that stage of grief but I almost put it in my heart in a box and threw it at the bottom of the ocean because it was all too painful

sure yeah but so for me I was finding I found real joy in empowering others as well. I always think the best things are when, of course, you know, you have that idealistic view of, yeah, can I make it?

Can I achieve? But also, it's really nice when you connect with others, give a voice for the voiceless. Be useful. To me, that's real altruism. Yeah. How much do you feel like that animated

the arc of your career? Have you always been thinking of how to serve others in some way? I think I've gone through different periods. Okay, so when I was younger, I had youthful bravado. You know, I hadn't fallen down too many times. I was like, yeah, gun, ho. And then as I reached my 30s, I definitely had lost that en jeanue kind of youthful bravado, so to speak. And I felt like in no man's land and a little, and feeling peer pressure to tick boxes, you know, you've got to, you know, find

the perfect relationship, perfect, you know, success in all those areas. And I felt, and I felt, quite behind in that. It was quite reflective and loss. I felt like in no man's land. And then when I think going into because I'd fallen down so many times I knew what I think

that confidence had left. And so I was more of a questioning about myself. And then it wasn't until I got to my 40s that I felt like actually life experience had happened and I felt I could reflect back into what

important, what's giving me the greatest joy. And I know I'm my happiest, when I'm of service, when I'm useful. Of course, you know, there's human ego comes into things. Sure. You know what I mean? That's one of our biggest, you know, things that we have to overcome. But when I'm of service and I know, why am I, why did I do this book? Why? And I've asked myself, I keep reminding myself that, you know, it took me a really long time to do, right? But what kept on driving me on is, you know, to serve that person that needs to find their power. And it gives you purpose to get up. And it made me think about embedded in this story. There's four rules, which you might quite like. And it sounds like the values that you were talking about earlier.

So, Amber Lynn, right, so she was a queen, married to Henry VIII, and she's going to be executed, right? And she's got a three-year-old little girl. And so she gives her a rule book with four rules in it. And then Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth, her daughter, she uses those four rules to become the greatest monarch ever of her time. Then cut to 500 years later, Rosie Frost receives those four rules from the Ghost of Ambelin. And she gets through all the challenges in her life, whether it's being bullied or standing up for certain things.

But you could use those four rules. And those four rules are what you talked about. One was have courage. Right. The second one was United We Stand, Divided before. You talked about community. The third one, which I was referring to, was never give up, be the light, serve your kingdom, you'll win your fight. So that's what she's using. But actually, when I use that in my own life, it sort of gives you that impetus. You know, why are you doing this podcast? Because you know it's going to help others and inspire them in some way. And it's giving you.

That's the best version. Yes. It's the best version of it. Of course there's also other self-serving motives, but it's a mix. And then the fourth rule is, if you don't like, it says, to thine own self be true, Shakespeare. If you like us not, these rules, make up your own. But I think if we find that balance of altruism and a little bit of self, so, both in balance, then it's a good life. Did you have a spiritual background going up?

Like an English girl with your parents? Yeah, there was a mix going on. There was all sorts going on, whether it was Christian, Catholic, my mother, all sorts. But I've been interested in all faiths. So I remember when I was 21, I read the book, the Tibetan Book of the Art of Living and Dying. I was questioning.

But I've always had some sort of reflective faith, something bigger. I think there's a thing on Netflix at the moment. They say how people live to 100. Oh, my God, I've obsessed with that. I'm talking about this. It's so good. But one of the commonalities, and it doesn't matter, where you're from, where was the place in Japan or Sardinia or the place in America,

they all have a defining factor, and that's a faith. It doesn't matter what community, which you talked about. Yeah, right. It doesn't matter. It's all flavors of ice cream to me. Yeah. It doesn't matter. That's beautiful. Jerry, I watched an interview that you gave.

You've done your homework. Thank you very much. I appreciate you, Sophie. A long form interview. and I have to say, I have to hand it to you, you handled yourself with so much grace and so much composure, but I found myself during the interview, like, wanting to, like, you know, get between you and the interviewer and be like, don't, don't speak to her that way. Just because there was, like, some, some elements of sexism, I felt in, like, the way that he was speaking to you or, or

objectification. And I wonder, I assume that being part of one of the most, iconic girl band of the 2000s, late 90s and 2000s, that's got to come with the territory a little bit, like some level of objectification. And I wondered, I wanted to hear from you, like, how did you feel? Was that something that I felt myself and that you were fine with? Or is that something, yeah, just how did you feel? I've heard that. I've been asked that a few times. And my feeling is that if you look back, you know, a hundred years ago, you know, there's always been challenges for everyone no matter where you're from and if somebody asks it's not an excuse but if somebody is what's deemed to be sexist or says something that maybe you think oh that feels a bit

icky actually it says more about them than you and also perhaps give a little bit of grace yeah well you did that yeah a little bit of grace to that person because you know it's how they've been brought up. You know, it's not an excuse, but, you know, you can teach that person, you know, how you want to be treated. But sometimes it's just a nearer as well. And we're all learning. I think, okay, we can identify that. And I'm getting things wrong. I'm learning. So I think the best, I think change happens when we're, rather than scolding and admonishing is actually it's through kindness and friendship community. You can call it out without shame. Daming. Does that make sense? It's like a child. If anyone that's got children, when I put

them on the naughty step, it doesn't work. But if I talk to them and say, look, this made me feel like this, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I normally get a better result. It doesn't always work because we know there's dark, there's darkness in some, you know, people that you can't control. But I think I don't take it personally so much. Yeah. It's just the way that person is. yeah they don't know that's they don't they don't they know better than they can be so to speak no i love that response it's very it's very generous i like it doesn't always feel like that because sometimes i feel you know that i want to react and think oh mm-hmm and we'll be right back in the late 90s and early 2000s asian women were often reduced to overtly sexual and

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash podcrushed to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. Just on that note of gender equality and women's empowerment, you know, you're an advocate for women's empowerment. And I'm wondering what you're observing in the younger generations that makes you hopeful about sort of the direction. that we're headed in if you're hopeful about that. That's so interesting because you've got children, you said. Yeah, I have a stepson in his 14 and a toddler who's three. Okay, so you're in it.

You've got both ends of the spectrum. Okay. So I would say in life, and we're all learning, is that the progress I see is that everyone's, there is a progress in openness, you know, that a certain generation, they talk about their feelings, which is really healthy. But what I go back to,

If I can see it, I can be it. So, but it's a Rosie Frost for boys, I think it's really important for boys to be, see they can be strong, but also cry, right? And I think the next generation, you might see that a bit more. Same with girls. You know, we went through, it's like the pendulum swings before it ticks in the middle. So you saw these girls having to be tough because we want to be heard. But actually, maybe we're not like as strong.

We don't have to be strong. but sometimes maybe a real hero or strength is being vulnerable and saying I don't know the answers I'm scared you know so I think but I think everything takes time before it finds balance you know in all the things that we're going through but I think everyone deserves grace particularly in that that generation you're talking about grace a little bit of support I think it's like they're like toddler adults Does that make sense?

They're finding their way in the world but haven't quite got it. They want it. So they're just learning to walk and they're going to fall over. So they want to know you're there but they're helping you out the way too. It's so true actually.

Yeah. It's really you're, you couldn't, in some ways you couldn't be more right and I have both. You've got both. I have a real toddler and a toddler adult. Yeah, both. The resemblance is so striking right now.

Yeah. They're exercising their power. They're trying to. They find it. They want opposing things all at once. Yeah. They don't know how to get it. You have kids.

I'm just curious, how did they feel about you being a spice girl? And do they know that you were really, I mean, you were like the spice girl at the time? I think it's really hard to impress your own children. Their friends might be. I heard someone in the playground say, your mother's a spice girl. If I don't, they put themselves, they're like, we all know what kids are kids. They just want what they want. So long as their needs are met, that's it.

Yeah. You don't make them much space world every Christmas? No. You know, my son's more interested in bedtime stories and he wants his three. Three stories no matter what. And, you know, my daughter wants, you know, she wants support. Your daughter is 17? Yeah, 17.

I have a stepdaughter as well and she's 10. So they just want support just to know you're there, but they're finding their own way. Totally. It's an interesting path, isn't it? being a parent. Yeah. I think that is your, for me, that's my biggest journey of, wow. Oh, absolutely.

It's just, it's, it's the, it's simultaneously the weirdest thing and the most normal thing ever, you know, it's like, it's like this is what everybody's doing, everybody's doing this right now. Yes, it doesn't matter who you, it doesn't matter who you, it doesn't matter who you have to be kidding me, and no one's talking about it and no one has any more insights. No, okay, all right, I'll keep going. Just as you think you've cracked it, it changes again. Yeah.

There's a whole new set of rules. Like my daughter's, you know, she's going out now. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. I think I was, you know, I was way worse. Well, yeah. So I just thought, okay. There's probably some objective truth to that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What questions have you called? Yeah, well. What's your middle name? My middle name is Dayton. Yeah. My middle name is Dayton.

Dayton? Yeah. It's a very, Doesn't that sound like quite a British name in a way? Dayton, it sounds like a racing driver's name. I know someone, racing cars, this racing driver, his son is called Dayton. And he's now a racing driver. Wow.

Very nice. Your dad has good taste in your names. Yeah. Because they're sort of different without being too silly. That's true. Does that make sense? It's hard picking boys' names as well. That's true.

I agree. Yeah. If you could go back to 12-year-old Jerry. Yeah. What would you say? I would say, you're enough. You're good enough, you're amazing. Yeah, that's all.

I would tell her I love her. Do you think she would listen? Probably not. Yeah, they just want to find their own way, 12-year-olds, don't they? Yeah, that's true. Okay, I'm always using, like, analogies, but I always say the 12-year-old. Okay, and we're all 12-year-olds at different times. because you're not a 12 year old is very tricky because you're too big for the teacup ride

and you're not big enough for the big wheel right so you're no man's land it's really hard 12 it's true my husband like takes the mickey at me i'm always quoting that again you hit that mark around late 2030s another 12 year old yeah yeah that was the first time i started really thinking about this time i think as well it's tricky yeah because you don't fit there and you don't fit there. You're like, oh, okay, not easy. Yeah. I felt quite, do you know what I mean? You don't want to sit on the kids table anymore, but you're not quite there at the grown-ups. You're like, there's not a lot of places you fit, especially with all the other 12-year-olds, because they're all just looking at each

other, being extremely self-conscious. You've been like an icon for a time that's hard to be an icon, I think. You know, you've had your ups and downs. Like, given that at such a young age, you were, whether you wanted in some way, you know, the word role model I don't love, but like, what was your relationship to the word, to either the idea that you were a role model or that you had a responsibility as you were coming up? And how is that evolved? First of all, I don't think about that, you know, like when I look in the mirror ever. You know, of course, I get that, yeah. But I would say any kind of fame or anything, so to speak, or, you know, a positive reputation is like something that, you know,

I try to be very respectful of. It's like the opposite, to really cherish it and, you know, I'm not going to do it perfectly. But if anyone feels inspired by what I've done, that's amazing. And how has it evolved? It's like, okay, so we can feel marginalised in any way, you know, whether it's through your sex, your, um, where you're from, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It doesn't matter what it is. We can find differences. But another one of those is age. And so I looked for my younger, you know, brothers and sisters, you know, say, okay, can I, and I'm not going to do this right, but I'm still learning, can I grow up in a, you know, in a respectful way to say, do you know what, it's a privilege and I'm grateful to grow older? Does that make sense? Yeah.

that you're allowed to pivot and change and evolve. That's normal, and so it encourages all of us that we don't have to, we can celebrate our age, so to speak. Do you know what I mean? I'm 50 now and I feel so grateful that I've got to be this age. And I think in the East, they celebrate it a little bit more. Definitely. Again, back to that program that I want, all your sisters say want you to watch.

About the blue zones. Yeah, that's right. Living to 100, Secrets of the Blue Zone, everyone needs to watch it. Is that what it's called? Secrets of the Blue Zones? The Blue Zone is somewhere where there's a high concentration

of centenarians. Septuagenarians, right? Centenarians? Somebody else called it as set. What's a septogenarian? I don't know. Someone that's not very well. 70s.

Centenarians is someone that reaches over 100. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Isn't that wonderful thing? But a really healthy, vibrant 100. And you see, how do they do it? Mountains, faith. Yeah. Volunteering.

Stairs. Purpose. Somewhere between stairs and God. Yeah, somewhere between, yeah. Clim the stairs, you'll find it. Perfect. Jerry, thank you for coming. Oh, my gosh, thank you.

Thank you so nice to meet you. Oh, lovely. Jerry Hallowell's new book, Rosie Frost, and the Falcon Queen, is available online or at your local bookstore. And you can keep up with her online at Jerry Hallowell on X or at Jerry Hallowell. or at Jerry Hallowell Horner on Instagram. We're doing it. We're calling a X now. No one's saying,

formerly known as... I saw you in that. I saw you in that one. I saw you in that one where you played the creepy person. You're going to be more specific. No, that's the one. That's the one.