Podcrushed - Goodbye YOU: A Farewell to Sera Gamble

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

"Goodbye YOU: A Farewell to Sera Gamble" In this very special episode of Podcrushed, we invite YOU showrunner, Sera Gamble (The Magicians, Supernatural) to reflect on 4 seasons of YOU—from her earliest pitch meetings, to landing on Penn as Joe, to saying goodbye four seasons later. We get to hear her side of the now infamous boundary-setting conversation, and Sera shares why she's the real Joe Goldberg. Follow Podcrushed on socials:TikTokTwitterInstagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I know that today's guest is really special to Penn because I think this is the first interview that I can recall and maybe I'm, you know, corrupting my old memories but where Penn didn't try to cut, like sometimes if a guest tells like a vulnerable story or something a little bit heavy, he'll cut it with humor, which I think works really well. But he never did that with Sarah. He just sort of like let it stay in the room.

and I really felt like it was a sign of respect. Like, I just felt like there was like a special respect from you to Sarah. I felt it really sweet. I think I might have done that with Domino as well. Yeah, probably. It's true. So every other guest who's been on the show, Penn has no respect for you. Yeah, basically.

You just need to know. Yeah. Come on this show. You thought, he was lovely. You thought, wow, he's really great for a celebrity. For a celebrity. Not for a human, but for a celebrity. We do get into that a little bit.

today's guest is I think a special treat for our listeners Sarah Gamble she is a prolific writer in television she was first a showrunner on Supernatural

a series a huge huge cult hit back in the day she came on she wrote up through the seasons and then by season five was a showrunner then

she's also known for co-creating and showrunning the magicians which was on sci-fi and I think at this point most famously for my show

you or her show yes I can finally say something other than to clarify the name my show I can say her show her show you about me written by her yeah so this was

for people who don't know Sarah is bidding Joe she's leaving the show after point as showmeners sometimes do we do have one more season for you Don't. Don't worry, calm down.

But season five will be helmed by some of our other writers. So this was a poignant farewell both to Sarah as the formal head of the show, but then also a bit to the show itself. Because soon we're going to be done, guys. We're going to be done. You know, we can lay Joe to rest. But we had some real poignant conversation around that and other things. I think you'll really enjoy it.

So please, get on down. Listen in. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties.

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A 15-year-old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer. I used my front teeth to saw on the rope in my mouth. He's been convicted of murdering two young women, but suspected of many more. Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dull Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode.

Sarah, first of all, as we speak now, this is the first time since we would have met that you're no longer my boss. technically, which is very poignant, right? Right? Yeah. You're like, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure I'm still your boss. Well, I think we're both producers in that show now.

But I'm not your showrun. Yeah, as a showrunner, I mean, you're still co-creator. You can really get back at me now. Yeah, right. There's going to be the next murder victim is going to be named Sarah. Oh, my gosh. No. I kind of want to start right off with a few questions that maybe they're obvious,

but I've been thinking about. Okay. Is Nadia the closest character in our show that you've ever written to yourself? I actually never slept with a professor in college. Okay. Not for lack of trying at one. I did flirt with a lot,

but he had very recently married a former student, so I was just a little too late for that. When she goes off about how most people have to be entertaining. That's what I was thinking. That, you've heard me on that stove box. Yeah, but Beck is a lot like me, or a lot like I was when I was her age. And in certain ways, love is, I think love is probably the furthest distance I had to travel in a female character. Ellie is like a cooler version.

Sure. You know, at a different age, I suppose, just like every phase. The person I'm a lot like is Joe. Yeah, that makes sense. Minus the murder, but the judgment in my head, I really monetize that with this joke. So that is, that's actually my next question. I just want to spend a moment because you're Joe's thoughts

in a way so I just wanted to I just wanted us all to appreciate for a moment like just hats off how screwed up that is It is yes yes yes I mean yes you're turning it into yes you have to subvert it

you have to do all that crazy stuff but just just appreciating for a moment like the Joe's thoughts I mean they've become a thing they've become a thing it's like it's now it's now kind of in separate

from me and my vibe in the world like so many memes you know so I guess like how do you feel now you're you're passing Joe's thoughts off

to people that you know very well and trust yes but how does it feel now to be sort of on the other side of having done this well I should start by saying they've been writing Joe's thoughts with me the whole time

it really writing television is not usually a solo sport and I wrote the pilot with Greg Berlanti who was the one who said we should call the voiceover Joe's thoughts

because it's a separate character this is a technical thing but you know usually you read a script and if you're hearing voiceover it just says the name of the character and then Vio but he was like

it's not Joe Vio it's Joe's thoughts and Joe's thoughts are going to mostly be the opposite of what he's saying it's almost like the other half of him so you know Caroline invented it

and then Greg and I worked with it in the pilot and then when you're running a writer's room it's like all of those people's job is to try to sound like you on the page sound like the showrunner sounds so it was a you know as it evolved and I'm sure you felt it become more

confident as season one pulled on right you're like you're feeling every adjustment as we make it right and I feel like the first half of season one there was there was a lot of well maybe season one in general we were just finding the line. Are there any thoughts that kind of hit you the hardest?

Because for me, I get them all on his scripts. I'm not creating them. So sometimes when I'm doing the voiceover, I'm surprised which ones hit me. I'm surprised like, oh, that one kind of made me more emotional than I thought. Or like, that one was harder to say than I thought it would be. Or, you know, what have you? Is there ever, is there any thought that hit you the hardest or that you remember?

the feeling you're talking about of something is uncomfortable or feels weirdly vulnerable, that's kind of the feeling I'm looking for when I'm writing a lot of the time. It's like a really, it's a good sign if you feel bad when you're writing a script. I feel you. Because you're getting at something a little scary or a little dangerous or a little controversial. And that's what you, you don't want to do the thing people expect you to do. So I follow that a lot. I mean, Joe's thoughts work because he's being mostly honest with us, right?

It's at least it's very, I think this is part of why the show works is the seduction of like only we watching the show know what he's really thinking. So like he's our friend, not the person in the scene. Of course, he's also lying to himself. So that only works so much. But, you know, in order to pull that off, it's like what you have to do is write dialogue that makes the character kind of, that doesn't flatter him. Yeah. You know, it's like our pure, not pure, you know, yeah, our pure thoughts, our uncensored thoughts, they're horrible. All of us think horrible stuff all the time.

At least everyone I've ever talked to. Oh, yeah. The cynicism, the sort of the animal part of us that is just like sort of reading the world for danger, I feel like, is what that is. And wants to be better than other people, which is a huge thing for Joe. Any chance he gets to look at someone and decide that he's better, he goes forward. And I don't walk through the world thinking that way all the time, but I know what that feels like. So I don't know what question I'm answering anymore. You want to read the question?

No, no, no, I mean, look, trust me. That's how this whole podcast is going to happen. Sarah. I think that is, I mean, to me, I think about in terms of trauma. Like, you know, and not to go off on a whole trauma spiral. But that is the, you know, it's what makes us see relationships as competition, which is the whole trope that I feel like our show is dissecting. So, I mean, you know, also, I do feel like indebted to Joe

specifically for having to think about this now so much and having to sort of work it out. I think, I don't know, but I think it's actually improved the way I view relationships. I've learned a lot because I've had to put it into words. And when you're writing it, it's like we spend all day in a writer's room. So it's sort of a process of me learning how to, to say things in sentences that are sort of nascent little instincts and impulses.

So I really have had to kind of state very plainly what our philosophy is on relationships for the show, which isn't terribly different than my philosophy and light. Wait, before we segue to this, though, I have to say, I remember being in post on the pilot with Greg, and it was the first time we heard your voiceover, and that, when we sat down, And we were like, well, this is going to make or break the show. I hope the voiceover works. And this might be a journey. I mean, we've all seen stuff where the voiceover feels forced or just is totally weird or sort of cheesy.

And voiceover has a pretty mid reputation, you know, anyway. It's kind of, it can be a good sketchy, yeah. You nailed it immediately. I don't know if you were thinking something in particular the first time you sat down to do it. And I wasn't expecting it. It's like, as soon as I heard it, I was like, oh, he is like leaning in. and he is sort of almost saying it in my ear. Like there was something that then our sound team really went with

in terms of like they mix your voice so that it feels more intimate than any of the other sounds we're hearing. Right, right, right, right. And I mean, that is how I have to do it so... I mean, it's quiet. It is. It's really, really, you know, I mean, the way they have to mix and master it and everything,

it's like I get so close to the mic and I have to... I mean, usually the mic is so hot that if I am, have, like, change in my pocket or if I'm wearing something that has like any buttons on it and I move in a certain way like you can hear it that's how hot the mic is

and how much I kind of like yeah it's a very very specific process I've never seen you wear a button I just want to point that out I mean I mean a shirt I'm not like I voted button I've never seen you wear a shirt with button yeah

actually a little the reason I don't in real life that much except for like linen shirts it's because of Dan Humphrey I will just such another. Because he wore button down? Because I wore almost exclusively button downs as you does.

He took that from you. And I just feel like, yeah. And Joe has taken hats from you. He has. But you need them to move for the world on a subway. Now I look more like Joe when I have a hat on. You just got to wear a visor now. You know what I found works guys?

The horrible thing of becoming so much more famous for having somebody who's trying to hide. You know what's funny? I actually have figured out in my oldest. mention this to me he's 14 now and really thinking for himself has some great ideas we went to a basketball game he's like wear a backwards hat

there you go Joe would never it worked so well and what's funny is that my face is on full display but it's just like it couldn't be that guy can't see your hair your hair is defining because now people are going to know they're going to be looking for the backwards I mean to be fair I was wearing

a mask too but I get recognized in a mask a lot so the backwards It really helped. Did something. It did something. Just before we get too far off the Joe's thoughts, I wanted to ask you, Sarah, because you just said that it's like, it is some of your own impulses. It is like channeling into sort of those dark thoughts that we all have. Is there a Joe's thought that surprised you the most when you like, even surprise yourself when you wrote it? Is there one that stands out? I mean, that's such a great question. I don't really have the Rolodex in front. I feel, you know, one thing that surprised me, and I can't take credit for it. And it's like everything is a big mush. And probably I saw it for the first time because somebody handed me a draft. But I, when we pitched it, we said, you know, he's a perfect boyfriend.

And that's all he wants is to be the perfect boyfriend. And he really does check a lot of boxes. He's very romantic. He's like, I actually think I said he's great in bed. And it's like, but Joe, well, Joe on the show frequently has problems in bed. And that was an area that I didn't know we were going to get into. and, you know, so that surprised me. That's what I brought to it.

It is like a level of vulnerability that kind of, like, you can feel the temperature change a little bit when it's about that. So, you know, again, like, when somebody pitches something and I feel everybody tense, I'm like, let's stay here for a minute. Let's all be tense. Let's not move on yet. So, you know, running a writer's room is the process of, like, subtly torturing people and then, like, ventilating it.

And we can all just talk about what we, you know, we watch this duty to really hot, corn chip on YouTube. And then turn it up again. Penn and I recently pitched a project to someone who used to work at a B. And he said that you and Greg pitched you to B. In a bunch of other places

and it freaked his boss out so much that he didn't like take the project that seriously because you guys had like done research on him on social media. Can you share that? Because it was really, the way he was telling us it was a really interesting story, but he was basically my boss got so freaked out he like didn't even want to look at the concept. Like that's why they didn't go for it.

I'm so sorry. sorry. We pitched it wrong so it wasn't on your show. But Netflix turned out to be the perfect time. I actually think you pitched it perfectly and I like freaked this guy out so much. Well, it was memorable. I mean, that he admitted to you that it freaked him out. Because everyone's just like, it was great when they talked to me. But I'm like, I'm sure there are places I'll never work again. It was, again, it was Greg Berlanti's idea. For anybody who doesn't know who he is, you actually do. You have seen many of his shows. He's responsible for... Most prolific television producer ever. In history, yeah, the whole D.C. universe that was on the C.W. for a long time and the flight attendant and our show and a lot of shows. And he was like, you know, the thing that was different and special about this concept was that he wasn't Mr. Robot. He wasn't like a super hacker. Usually that guy is like, he's an everyday, work-a-day guy, and he's better at computers than anyone you've ever met in your life. But I don't think that's what terrifies women when they walk down the street. Like, I'm not scared. I'm going to accidentally run into a genius. I'm scared because it doesn't actually take a genius to destroy a woman's life. And all it takes is a determined guy with like maybe $7.99

to pay to get your driver's license information. So to prove it, we stocked one person in each room. We did make sure it wasn't the highest, you know, it was the VP, but based on their Facebook at the time, whatever they put on social media and whatever we could garner specifically from like following to their closest friends because oftentimes

you're in other people, you're tagged in other people's photos and so we were able to be like, so you get your hair blown out in Enzino and this is the name of your son's soccer team Yeah, that one that one be like And it proved the point though that like all of us should just

hide in a cave until we die because this is a very dangerous place out there and you don't know. That's also, I think, a really, you know, for the legacy of this show, whatever it ends up being, it wouldn't have been the same if he was talented at that.

I mean, I think of him as, he has above average intelligence. One of my favorite things about him is that he's so well read and that he's genuinely self-taught. He really, that part is kind of like also something. I feel like it's almost heroic about him.

I love that part of him. That's the part that I, you know, for all the things I say impress about him, I can't think that way when I'm shooting. So, like, that's the part of him that I love. That's the part of him that I connect to, like, entirely, yeah. Yeah, but also he liked

typewriters in season one. He was collecting vintage stuff. And so, no, he couldn't also be like, let me hack the algorithm or whatever does people say. Yeah. And clearly not that writer. There's a little note that I wanted to give you that

I have heard some feedback from friends and journalists alike, who all in this case are, it happened to be black women who have said that, um, they feel like an unusual safety in that no black female characters die. Um, so first, the props, that's a lovely thing. That's a lovely statistical, little nice thing to have. Um, when you are thinking about who dies, who doesn't, I mean, how, like, I don't, you know, this is kind of a broad question that you'll know how to ask and answer better than I can because you know how you do it. But like, You know, do you start out being like, you know what I mean?

Like, do you start out knowing who's there, knowing who should die, who shouldn't? I mean, when you're mapping out a season, what is that even, how does that start? What we didn't ever want to do was like, I remember even growing up and hearing this narrative sometimes about films where it's like, well, they're kind of like really lingering on her dead body. And it's naked. And they're, you know, and it's sort of sexualizing a dead girl. And there's a long history in cinema of sexualizing and fetishizing and romanticizing women as they're being abused and murdered. And we lose credibility as soon as we do that. Like we're in this like razor thin little lane of credibility where we're saying we're going to be irreverent about the fact that he's a stalker and a murderer and he violates women in every single episode.

But we're not being glib about violence against women. That's where we started, right? So the stuff that people have noticed since then, all of those things are just part of the conversation that we're having in the room and also that we're having with the actors that we cast, people like Tati, where it's like first it was, you know, in season one it was Beck, this, you know, gorgeous blonde yoga t-shirt just trying to make her way in New York. And as, you know, the story continues with characters like Delilah and Marianne. And so, in other words, women of color, it's like part of that conversation is, well, Beck's expectation of safety, walk up. down the street is different than Marianne's expectation of safety. Love's expectation of safety is different. So, like, there's certain things that Marianne just, like, wouldn't put herself in that.

So those conversations just start there with kind of, like, the facts of the case about what it's like to be a girl in the world. Yeah. Yeah, I heard Tati, I like a snippet on TikTok of Tati Gabrielle in an interview, I think, on Jennifer Hudson's show. and she was saying that it was really important for her in this season to make sure that the character of Marianne had an awareness of what was going on because she felt like as a black woman, as black people,

there's just a constant awareness of your surroundings and of like your safety and who you're safe with, who you're not, and that it was important for her for the character to have that too. I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, we've had a dialogue about it since, Not even since she was cast. I was talking about her during, talking about it with her during the casting process. And I sort of, in cases like that, I'm kind of following the actor's lead because it's like, you know, I'm not hiring you so you can have some big conversation with me about, you know, how the show's going to be received.

Like your actual job is to show up and know your lines and do a great job. But if you want to engage on this or if it's important to you to engage on this, I will because it's important to us in the writer's room to just, you know, I never imagine that I'm going to have. like a show that perfectly you know uh doesn't step into any problematic like writing is problematic you you you something is always going to be problematic for someone so our sort of standard for ourselves making this show is just be conscious be conscious have the conversation don't ever shortcut when there's something that the writer's room is just um you know feeling a little bit like they just want to talk about it as people then we just stop and we talk about it as people and then Joe's dancing in his underwear

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but that's one part of the question. I want to know names. And the other is, why Penn? Why were you guys so interested in Penn? we were we were auditioning actors and we also you know when when you're casting what we call one on the call sheet there's a simultaneous thing that's happening often where you're auditioning actors and those are basically actors who are in a place in their career where they still audition like Penn is not with the exception of certain directors who anyone would audition for I think he's he's at a place and he was then at a place in his career where what you do with an actor like Penn who's already been a star in television is you meet with them you just like have coffee and

you talk and then the conversation might organically move on to the script and we might start reading it together but it kind of depends on that chemistry so you know he's he's at a place where he's earned that he's that established but at the same time we're we're reading 17 people a day and we're talking to agents about like is this person who started another show are they interested and they'd like to talk and but as soon as penn's name was brought up we were all like wait does he want to do it because he'd be he'd be too perfect And it's because, I mean, I hadn't, I mean, I've seen, I've seen you in a couple of movies, and I saw maybe the first season or so of Gossip Girl, and I just was like, but I just don't think

that guy would kill anyone, you know? And if he's a creeper, we're kind of done. Like, we don't need to make a show about a guy who fails to hide that he's a creeper. We need to make a show about a guy who fools everybody. So as soon as you were in the mix, we were done talking about anyone else. Just definitely, I'm really glad it worked out because otherwise, I'd have to start over. That's been, you know, that's been kind of a little bit of my fear this entire time. It's like, is the fact that he's so likable just me that I'm not doing a good enough job playing a murderer?

Yeah. You know, as an actor, when you watch yourself, by the way, there's... You're plenty terrifying. I just think. You're not that likable. You're both. Yeah. But it's definitely always there, the monkey.

Is it a weird thing? It's like, I don't think it's something you control. I think some actors, and I mean, we all have, I think, a slightly fraught relationship to the word likable. I don't know if you do, but I do, certainly. Well, I think actually, you know, something we've touched on here, and I think what we've talked about a lot is like the likability for women is a totally different, like, I don't know, marker or something than it is for a man. But it's like, I don't know that it's something you're doing. It's sort of what your energy is and what the camera sees when we pointed at you that, like, I think of actors like Brian Cranston is like that. And so they made a show where he was progressively more horrible for five seasons in Breaking Bad.

But we were so on board. We really, you know, it's like a strange superpower, I think. Tom Hanks, I guess, would be the Mount Rushmore of likelihood, right? Has he done it? Has he played? Oh, he did play Elvis's manager. Yeah. Yeah, but mostly, you know, he could be doing horrible things and we'd just be like,

I hope he gets out of this jam. I don't know. Do you have a feeling from the inside? Is it a thing or is it just? just like whatever, my hair is curly, people like me. I don't know. I mean, I... And the little gap in the TV.

It's the nose, I think it's also the little gap in the TV. Actually, I do think the gap. I do think the gap does a lot. The gap makes me look younger, and I think it does something there. Well, I don't know as it pertains to this show, but I just know that probably as an actor, your relationship to your... image or you or yeah i yeah i'm not really sure my brain goes in so many places which just means

it's like it's not something i have enough perspective on you know i mean that makes sense yeah it's like it's just it's just it's a strange thing i don't think who i don't think any actor can can can truly mask who they are i mean i think even like you know what what i personally feel like I see even the actors who are sort of like renown for transforming. I feel like I'm still seeing very much them. It's just the way in which they are is kind of intense. And so everything seems transformative when you're seeing somebody like dissociatively angry. You know, so I don't know.

I have my own kind of take on all that. But I don't, yeah, I don't think you can actually mask who you are that much, that much. No. Unless you are somehow like really one of those special sociopaths in which case. I will say this. I don't mean to embarrass you. I'll be very quick about it. but there are plenty, I'm going to shock you guys and tell you,

there are plenty of actors, well-known actors working in Hollywood who seem incredibly likable and are really, we're just going to say really challenging in real life, like what the camera season love and what we love as their fans does not translate into day-to-day interaction with them, and they're not great people. And so you are really as advertised, you know? You really, really are.

And it's funny because, like, I, you know, I've had the experience of being on shows where, you know, you're basically casting people who have never had their name on a chair, on the back of a chair before. They're very new to it, very young. And then I've also worked just with a couple of established actors like you. And you really don't know. Like, you're walking in like, well, I hope it's okay. Like, I hope it's going to be okay. And I say this to him all the time. And he gives me just exactly this look, which is not much.

Like, you are the best number one I have ever worked with in my career. Thank you. You are the standard. And I hope it happens for me again. But I don't know. Pay for how great this has been for the last few seasons with the next one. But like, no one will ever get away with it with me again. Because I'm like, but Penn manages to be a great guy while he's in every single scene.

So thank you. So thank you. I don't know how you do it. I think, well, as you said, I do. Yeah, I mean, I do appreciate that. But I do think. Yeah, that's probably actually it. I do think that people in my position, I do, I mean, I do think, I do think, like, we get a lot of credit for, for not being bad.

Like, you know, and I do, I do think I put a lot of energy into trying to be, like, kind and gracious on set, especially, because it's like, as, you know, the person who's the number one on the call sheet does set the tone, whether they want to or not. Yeah. So I do, I do, I do think about that, but I do think we also get a lot of credit for just not being sort of predictably. unkind. Right, or monstrous. Yeah. I know. It is a weirdly low bar,

almost probably insultingly low. Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. But, you know, there was a... But it exists for a reason. I mean, I think... It does, yeah.

I mean, and it will, you know, as a showrunner, it will overtake your existence. If you have an actor who won't, like, leave their trade, you know. I just, I just... Yeah.

I also personally feel like, while I can understand it, because I've been on the other side of the line, and I see kind of how the cultural, the culture of the way people will treat people in my position is such that it's like it's a self-perpetuating it can create that

yeah so like i get it i've seen people like who are kind of unwillingly treated that way and then they kind of become that way because it's like blah you know yeah um but whatever i still don't really have a lot of patience for it and i don't like to be around it and it makes me yeah so and i did i ever say that the moment i knew the moment i knew how this feels like i i was like maybe you can relax and stop being so superstitious and just um accept that this might be a good experience Season one, somebody called me and said, like, just say, probably our line producer, was like, yeah, Penn was late to set. He hadn't come out of his trailer yesterday, and I was like, what happened? I was like, oh, this is the moment.

And it's only season one, and the penny has dropped, right? And he was like, yeah, he was meditating, and he lost track of time. See? And I was like, oh, my God. I guess I did something okay in a past life. Meditating or doing cocaine? Can you just confirm? Whatever it was.

Difference? Yeah, a hot tip for up-and-coming actors. Call it meditating. I don't recall that, but I guess it's there. Sarah, there has been a lot of public discourse around Penn setting a boundary in the latest season. Oh, yes, the famous boundaries. Right. And I want to know for you as a showrunner, what was it like to have that conversation with Penn?

And I want to set the disclaimer just so I don't know if you've heard, but I've been clear about how, you know, receptive and gracious. All the coverage has been. 100% in Sarah's corner and then 50% in pens everyone in your corner I really I admire the way you've been handling

that conversation like predictably when the word sex appears in the title of something it will and I do think that the discourse

has gone far beyond anything that you were talking about and about what we were talking about and I think like it was initially a private conversation and you know it's become public now

so it is what it is but it'd be interesting to hear you yeah one fun thing is we were an hour at least into the phone call when you brought it up, right?

Because I pitched you the whole season. And in fact, I waited to, it was something that I knew that I wanted to ask, as I've said, and I'll clarify here again, before we met, this was something that I even wanted to set in my own career, didn't understand if it was possible, you know, who knows what the future holds.

It was just like, you know, my orientation and therefore something I thought about. So by the time this pitch for season four comes along, it seemed like, I was like, actually, Joe's kind of, Joe's kind of headed in this direction, maybe. So I'm going to go ahead and, and see, and see. So anyway. He definitely wasn't, like, in a marriage and cheating on his wife and having foursomes with her. So it was a good time to say we can reduce. It was not a, it was not a very difficult conversation for me. Honestly, like, first of all, nobody was saying, I refuse to do something. We

were both just saying, like, what are we going to, like, I was, my job in that conversation was just to, like, pinpoint exactly what you were asking for and what was making you uncomfortable. And, like, there's a big difference, for example, between saying, I have a problem with the content of the show you're writing, and I am having this issue around my own performance, like what my job is demanding that I do, specifically with my body. And I just don't think that's a very complicated conversation for us to have, because I'm not, we're not in the business of saying, strip down and touch someone if you know that's not what you want to do yeah that actually brings up how it's also not a common it's like there's one thing one thing i've said too is like when people bring up to

well what about murder it's like guys i'm not murdering anybody at the end of the day there's something that you can't simulate which is physical touch it just comes down to that it's like it's not everybody has to do this in their job it just is it's like you know there's a lot of i caught up on the negative feedback way after the fact and then i was like oh okay but people love to state so clearly as though they've experienced this like why don't you just do your job yeah well i mean everybody's you know we're not all the same there's stuff i won't right so i don't take those jobs or i'm not right for the you know and they're you know for example if you were like what a little like right wing propaganda like we'll pay you really really well right i don't know i can't it's like i have lines

but it um it doesn't matter what the actor next to you is comfortable with they may feel a completely different way about what kissing they may think it's not the same, which is fine because that's their, you know, but the two people in that conversation are me and you. We're making the show together. We were many years into it at this point. And it's just like, let me understand. My job is just let me understand the parameters and then come back with a plan. It becomes surprisingly quickly. It becomes very technical, right? I was the worst, the nightmare version of a conversation like that is, I just think it's bad that we murder people. Or like, I don't think, I don't want, I don't want this character to be in sexual

situations but you started by saying like I do understand the show we're making and we know let's not speak in absolutes but also I understand like the story we're telling I'm not asking for a different story I'm just saying this with my body and it's like well it's your body so and since time immemorial and it's like it's called cinema right because we do magic it's all smoke and mirrors and so when I came back like the first conversation was about all this stuff we didn't even really end up needing to do which is like body doubles the effects using certain angles, certain camera lenses, just I was like, listen, so we have this arsenal of things we can do if we need to. And how about we just like look at the scenes and talk

about them, right? It, you know, I will say that, so I've been doing, I haven't been doing this as long as you have, but almost, right? I've been working in television for almost 20 years and the industry has changed a lot. And that time I was frequently the only woman in the room when I started and the only woman on set. And, you know, when intimacy coordinators became a thing, I was very relieved because I had been sort of an amateur intimacy coordinator for a couple years. There were times when I would fly to a set in Vancouver because I felt like I should be there that day because something very intimate was going to happen. wanted to be present, but it is also a weird feeling to be the boss and to be, it's not quite right. So I was relieved that we were making these strides and having this conversation at all

because I don't think, I mean, I'm certainly not in this business to make people feel bad and weird and uncomfortable. Like we're playing games and we're having fun. We're all doing what we love the most, hopefully, and nobody's feeling weird about people touching them. And so I'm glad. I'm also, I have to say I think it's nice to have that, imperfect as it has been it's nice to see that conversation happen where a man has been talking

about this because I think people hear it a little bit differently when it's a woman saying that and usually it is. That's true. And so I appreciate that about you. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective on it too, yeah. The nature of the way that we had that conversation, it felt like it was just kind of, you know, if

if it hadn't become a sort of a public, like sound bite I don't know that people would have noticed that much you know

and no but it's but I do I think so I've had my qualms about whether or not it feels like

well is that like but I do think it's you're right I think it's positive that at least

some man has entered the conversation as well and I don't necessarily see myself like in that role doing that thing

all the time but yeah it does seem like it does seem like maybe just a necessary part of it. It's just like the same way that we're going to all have different comfort levels with a lot of stuff, you have the comfort level you have with disclosing how you feel publicly and talking about it and having conversation about it, which is great.

But the funny thing is people would be shocked to know all of the things that were faked or different or rewritten on the day or like one of the actors had the flu, so like nobody was kissing. And if we do our jobs right, if the director is clever on the day and then the editor and I are clever in post, then you won't be watching it going, why doesn't the story work? You'll be, we'll have found some way to rewrite and reset the scene so that it gives you whatever feeling it needed to have. And that happens all the time with people who change their minds about taking their pants off in a scene or for whatever reason need to stay six feet of COVID kind of stuff, you know. Um, so, you know, the, where the rubber meets the road, it was not a very big deal for the season in terms of, um, you know, there were a couple of things come to think of, you know, where like, we were sort of figuring it out a little bit in the writing. And there was like one scene we had to reshoot. Um, that's right, yeah. But, uh, you know. I feel like that wasn't even, that was, that was, that was more that way, are you talking about the Kate scene and from episode three? I think that that, that, that, that, that, yes, in the park. It wasn't originally.

It wasn't originally in the park. No. I went too far. I'll own it. Like, I went too far. And I think part of it was that I was like, how much can I just remove these things in the scene? And so the fact that the two of you were like hate flirting a lot at that point, I was like, so there won't be any kissing. And then for whatever reason that she was taking him into this very sexual environment, this club.

Yeah. And it was just too far. It was too cold. Well, I think what it was, is that that was discovering, like, where the heart of the show is or isn't. You know, it was, it ended up being too hateful. Right. Which on the page, I have to say, worked. Like, on the page, somehow, it did make sense.

And then something about the way we were bringing it to life. Like, it just somehow didn't track with what, with everything else we're doing. And also, I mean, Joe is, Joe is a fundamentally romantic character. And even if he's, like, you know, banging someone he hates for the moment, because they haven't fallen in love yet. Right? Still, it has to be, this is what I learned, still learning in season four of the show, right? Like, oh, it has to be the romantic comedy version of this. We're not going to do the David Fincher version of that scene where it's cold and it's clinical and it's, you know, sexy. We're going to do the Notting Hill version. I would say David Fincher's even gone where it's not even sexy. It's just, it's very disturbing. Sarah, this is so vindicating because we said to Penn at some point, we think that you is basically a rom-com, but also it. And he was like rom-com. I've never thought of it as a rom-com.

It's both at the same time. Yeah. I mean, I knew what you were saying, but I think the way you said it, I was trying to catch you in the, I think you were saying it. And I was like, it's not a roco. I know. I really, I really did love Joe until episode eight. Now I'm. Uh-oh. Sarah, I want to ask a couple questions about love because she's so iconic. Yeah. So I want to know when like, I think Victoria has said that she knew from the beginning that she was going to get killed, like that it was a two-season arc. Yeah. Given how much people became obsessed with her and how good she was, did you guys ever think about not killing her?

And were you nervous when you did kill her, like, how people would react? No, I mean, that means we've done our job, and she's done her job. I mean, Victoria is very special. And I think a lot of why people react the way they do is about, like, just who Victoria is as an actor and then also the chemistry between the two of you when you're working. But, you know, one of the things that's just true in the business now is, like, we use. used to live in a world where we made 55,000 episodes of season, right? 22. And all actors would sign these contracts for many years to be on a show. And now the world looks different in streaming shorter orders, shorter seasons. And you can cast frequently, you can cast a more, you know,

an actor that you like really want to cat. If you don't say, but I'm going to need you to sign a contract for the next eight years of your life or something. And so when we made the deal with her, it was a two-season deal. Like we, when we met her, it's like, this is what the, this is what the commitment would be to do the show. So I, um, have always just sort of, we were all always just thinking of it in that box and also like, this is where the show is like he doesn't, you don't, you don't get to have nice things on this show. Like, because Joe messes up all the nice things. Yeah. So eventually she got to go. Everybody who loves got to go. You say that like a parent. I just like, like, and the viewer is a toddler. You're like, I'm going to have to take

that. I'm going to have to. I'm going to. Is that your toy? Yeah, I know that you like that toy. You know why I have to take it from you? Yeah. I mean, I was more just like, she's going to crush that death scene. That's how I felt about it.

And she did. The like shaking mouth. Yeah. It was the hardest. I was like, I really hope this works out because I'm asking for them to be like, paralyzed and poisoned and talking and oh no. You didn't just ask one of us to be paralyzed.

You asked both of us to be paralyzed. It's so good. This could go a number away. You pulled it off. You should do this professionally. Well, you know, she had to do more, like, she had to go into paralysis and then speak as she died. I think that's much harder. I got to do nothing.

I got to do, I got to, what's the line of nothing? How do I blink? How do I do I do a little bit more than nothing? It's a very funny, very funny, day on set. Wow. Just a few rapid fire, like, like, these are, kind of like, the kind of things you see people comment on. You know? Season one, Mooney's bookshop is next door to a real food spot,

I think probably Asian of some kind, called Nirvana. Mm-hmm. And season two, his new bookshop is an Avran, which is Nirvana spelled backwards. I've always thought this was a complete accident. Yeah. Was it an accident or is it intentional? It was, if it was intentional, it was lying consciously.

So I think we were... Wow, that's amazing. Isn't that like such a... Spired by Airwann. Yeah. That's right. Which is a Los Angeles grocery store where smoothies cost $500. It's insane.

Yeah. Kate's building number shown quite prominently in many dramatic moments in episode 4 is 69. Were you having a laugh? Someone was, I think. Wasn't me. I saw it in the cut and I was like, you know, because I could have been like, I had that moment. The effects. Because I could have changed it to 68.

Yeah. But then I was like, I think it's fine. Because it was real, right? I think I'm overthinking this. Wasn't it real? I'm not sure if they changed the numbers or not. I think it was real. I think because I tried to answer this question myself once I noticed.

I was like, uh-huh. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Rapid fire. Did, uh, okay, this, did you ever try writing a cameo for Cardi B? Did you, did you think about it? Do you like, is there a way we can involve her?

I think we could, London didn't seem like the place to do it. That's true, actually. Yeah. But, yeah. I was like, maybe once Rebecca. the States. Like, there's a few amazing people who could cameo. But it's sort of, it's also, like, tonally,

it has to be right. Yeah. You know, I'm going to be a very like an artiste about this. Yeah. But also, like... No, of course. It has to make sense. But also, we're not just to be cool if she just came in for the day and she played, I don't know, like the manager at the rival book store. It would be amazing. That would be amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Did you use Taylor Swift's anti-hero because of Penn's TikTok, or was that already planned? It was in part inspired by that TikTok. actually. I mean, Taylor Swift means a lot to the show, as we know. And I have never had so many people talk about a song as

they did with exile the season before. That's right, yeah. And then I feel like I met you a little bit when I saw your TikTok. Because I don't usually get that silly. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, we don't, I don't usually ask you to do that stuff. And it's just like,

there's like a parallel universe where we're making a show where you get to be like the the sunset. Because you're so free and funny. And then, yeah, that was in my head a little bit And then we just needed the song We needed a big song there And the video had come out for the actual song

What I actually thought was You know, between the positive response To last season And the fact that she did comment on his TikTok Like maybe she would Like be kind enough to give us the song That came out of the oven like five seconds ago Because that's a big deal for a pop star to do

It's easier to get a song that's been out for a while And that has already lived its life But, you know, I wrote a letter This is not a rapid fire But I wrote a little personal letter Asking for the... Oh, wow. Yeah.

Wow. Because I wanted to explain. Are you the first show that used it That's used anti-hero? I don't know. I think so. Someone will tell us. It was so quick.

It's expensive. There's no way that any show could use it. We had saved money for that, though. That's smart. There is no such thing as paying too much money for a Taylor Swift's song I agree. Sarah, what does it like to say farewell to the showrunner? I know you're still a producer, but so how are you feeling? How are you feeling on the last day, season four?

I feel pretty, honestly, I feel good about it. I mean, it has been actually a life-changing experience for me, completely career-changing experience. Like, nobody could have predicted what this show would become once it was on Netflix. And, like, if you had bumped to, to me on the street the year before that happened and be like, so do you think that you're going to write like the number one show on Netflix? I'd be like, absolutely not. That's not possible. Like, I'm a niche. I write cult hits, right? Like, I write Comic-Con level. But, so, I mean, it's been love. I feel pretty, like, complete with it. The thing about it is that, and also it's easy for me to say, because I'm not leaving the show. I'm just turning over the day-to-day. But, you know, Greg sent me the book in 2013. Wow. I don't know that. 10 years ago.

Wow. People we scared, that was in 2014. We developed it originally at a whole other place. What? We sold it to Showtime. We developed it there for a year. I didn't know that you went that far in development there. I knew that you guys had like an almost deal with them.

We had written the script and we parted friends and then we went around and we did like the whole pitch thing, including the stocking again with the script in hand. The week Trump was elected. So I remember it really clearly like the world was changing. very fast that week and we sold it straight to series at lifetime that was already, you know, so by the time you and I meet, I've been working on it for years and years. And so to me, it just like in my little corner of the world, it feels like I'm sort of reallocating my bandwidth because being a day-to-day showrunner is an incredibly labor-intensive job. There's a lot about it that even if you're an absolute master of delegation, you cannot make it take less than

10 hours of your day You know I just needed to be able to take back some of those hours To do some of the other things That have been on the back burner I also am really Proud to be able to pass the torch

That's how I became a showrunner I was on a show for five seasons It was supernatural right Yeah And the creator was moving on To do other development And he asked me to take over his job And that he changed my career

Like you know Being a showrunner is It's like It's kind of a difficult club to get into because they're essentially saying, you know, writer who lives in her bathrobe in a cave and is not particularly great with people. Here's $60 million or $100 million, you know, like it's a very specific combination of skills, managerial and creative. Yeah, and just to clarify for listeners who you're talking, that's the budget. Yeah, yeah.

You're not being handed to $60 million. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's just so people understand. Oh, no, no, no, I'm not carrying it around. Yeah, yeah. No, no. It's like it's your, your task with managing how every cent of that is spent and you have the entire infrastructure of every studio that's a part of making it in this case it's like Warner Brothers and Netflix who being like all right so how are you spending our money? I mean it's not literally that direct

but well sometimes it probably is sometimes it is I mean we have line producers we have producing there are many it's a big it's a big group of people who are doing it together everybody's hand like it right where the buck stop you know the person who gets the call when someone is furious is me And also the person whose name is in New York Times next to yours is me. So, like, it's with praise comes blame, right? But I'm thinking the number one thing about being a showrunner is just that somebody who can, like, withstand a pretty extraordinary amount of stress for a long time.

And you find that out because somebody takes a chance and says, I think that you're suited to this. I think you can handle it. Let me teach you about it. And for me to be able to say, like, oh, and now I've done that with more showrunners. It just feels really. Great. You know, I can't take a whole lot of credit from Mike and Justin. I mean, they were fully formed when they came to us. They were, and they've been with us since, well, has Justin been with us? Since season two. Season two and Mike's in season one. Yeah.

Well, this is actually, I think, a nice segue into, let's get into your, let's leave you behind. Okay. Because, you know, maybe we've hit our quotient for that. So you must have been a fantasy fan growing up. Like, because, I mean, you know, you have not only supernatural, but you have the Mediatorial. you have the magicians, which is like, which is a, um, like a darkly subversive take on kind of like what you also do with our show, which is like deconstructing a genre a bit. I mean, among other things, but that's like that you're deconstructing the fantasy genre. So were you like fantasy

lit as a, as a teen growing up? Yeah, I mean, as a small child even. Right. It's fairytales and my dad was a big Trekkie. So I watched a lot of sci-fi when I was little. and by the time I was 12 I was watching like everything in the entire horror section of the video store I was just really drawn to... So horror, really? Okay, okay. I mean that makes sense. All these are very closely related as you know.

Horror is just the version where you maybe spatter blood at the camera and scare people with suspense and stuff but my brain just like I don't know, there's something about that now it's almost like Jungian kind of storytelling that's very about what's happening in your shadow

and has those fairy tale archetypes that maybe I just read those books three too many times when I was seven but everything looks like that to me and that's kind of how I filter it through so yeah there were like I remember reading this series called the Dragon Writers of Pern

when I was 12-ish yes I remember having to say that that's the only reason I know it was great it was people who write dragons what did I say that in I said that in a line to some Maybe Marianne and Joe were bonding about it. Yes, that's cute.

That's really cute. But by the time I was in the age range that you talk about on this show, I had discovered historical romance novels. So I was kind of getting into reading. Actually, what I would do is I would go to the library after school with my best friend. And it actually ended up in the set for the Madre Linda Library. they had these like spinning metal carousels. Yes, I was wondering what those were. I mentioned them to the production designer

because we had those in our library and that was the historical romance paperback section. So those were real? Or were they like created to represent to resemble those? They were created to resemble them. This was obviously, you know, it was a long time. Maybe they're still there, but we would like grab an arm load and go and sit in the stacks and we would like skim until we got to the sacks.

And then we would dog your the page and pass them back and forth. And that's how, that was the extremely healthy and realistic way I learned about. Right. About sex. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, there's no internet porn. Like, we only had the Playboy magazine that somebody stole out of their dad's nightstand. And then we had, you know, pirates and tempestuous virgins.

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of fantasy and horror and sci-fi. How would you describe middle school, Sarah? Like, what were you like, who were you friends with? What were you interested in? Um, I would describe myself as, I mean, it was kind of a lot. I was, I wasn't like very, I was not the quietest child. I would sometimes get in trouble for talking back. Like, I never got suspended. It was never that bad, but I would, there have, I have always had this kind of defiant streak where if I say something and then the person in the position of authority is like you're wrong and then they move on i'm like but can we go back to that i just hate it when it's so i talked back to teachers i got in trouble for that sometimes and i was uh yeah i mean i was already an artist by then i think or at least really

interested in it yeah i was writing i was singing i was dancing i was acting oh that's right because yeah you uh you you actually started out as an actress well i wouldn't say started out no but i was into that i was sort of like doing i i just i was trying all All of it. I also took orchestra, so I started playing the flute, and I had a lot of natural aptitude for that. So I ended up, like, for a while, I thought I was going to be a classical musician. I thought that was going to be my path into college and beyond. So, so seventh grade me, okay, so you can picture, first of all, picture one eyebrow, complete monobrow. Right? Yeah.

It was like, now I'd be like, it's cool. Just leave it. Yeah, yeah. You were just like ahead of the curve. For a second, I thought you meant that you had shaved one eyebrow. And then I realized you meant, and then I still hadn't remembered that that's not, because like we are in at least in some ways a superficially different time, if not a substantally different time. And I was thinking to myself like that sounds cool, but I feel you. No, back in the day, no, no, no.

It did not feel cool. Yeah. It could not at all. I totally, totally feel you. Yeah. And then, you know, my mom was like, you're a child. We'll talk about plucking and waxing and shaving when you're a grown woman. So I was just like, what am I going to do?

So I, you know, so I'm on the school bus with my headphones and I'm listening to like Mozart. It was very nerdy. I love that. So, I mean, I had my people who were also kind of strange little smarty pants. But, yeah, I was like an enthusiastic troublemaker, really. What were you like with your parents? I had, as I became more of a teenager, I had a more and more difficult relationship with them. So my parents are immigrants. They are actually refugees from. Poland. They met in a refugee camp in Sweden. So they're basically kind of the generation after the Holocaust. And so they were alive because their families fled and then came back after the war. Speaking of trauma. Yeah. There's a lot in my family story. Yeah. And then

there was an anti-Semitic purge because it's not like people came back after World War II and were like, never mind, we're not going to be anti-Semitic in Europe anymore. Right. Right. And it was still pretty bad. And so around 1969, they were just like, you know, all of the Jewish students are free to go now. And so they did. My mom was like a freshman in college. And the way they tell it

one day, every Jewish student in the country came home and their parents had like a suitcase out with a bottle of vodka in it and they were like, you should go while you can. Because communist Poland is not going to be a great place for you. And it wasn't. So by the time I was 12, 13, you know, my parents had been in this country for a long time. My mom

didn't know word English when she got here. She was in medical school by this point. Whoa. My dad was working constantly. He was a pathologist, a doctor, and a professor at the medical school. So we had one of those, your dad is working, be quiet, houses 100% of the time, right? And the more I became my teenage self, really passionate, intent. I've always been an intense person.

Just the more I would fight with my dad. And there was just so much. In retrospect, I think he was terrified. me. I think he saw the world as a profoundly unsafe place for, you know, for people like us, just like ethnically and religiously, but also just for anyone who sticks their neck out. Like, he didn't, you know, he had these American children, but he didn't fully trust this country. He had, you know, it was a really difficult thing. So we would have increasingly just really, just bad fights, really bad. It was not a great, you know.

I mean, I think he would have a couple of diagnoses if he was the kind of guy to go do that, but he was not from that generation. So instead, you know, we were just in that house, no matter what the mood was. Did you have siblings? Yeah, one brother. One brother. Are you older or younger? A couple years older. Okay. Yeah.

So you're also the oldest. Yeah. Firstborn female immigrant kid. Yeah. Becomes the showrunner almost immediately upon setting foot in the television. That's why it's like, well, she will be very respectful. while she's bleeding to death. That's for sure.

Yeah. Sarah, you said you've listened to a few episodes, so hopefully these questions won't surprise you, but we have a couple of classic questions we like to ask everyone. Okay. So we want to hear about your first crush or love and your first heartbreak or first rejection. Mm-hmm.

And then we want to hear an embarrassing story. And you do have, I think, at least one of those. You'd mention. The crush heartbreak. Which is all so terribly embarrassing. I mean, it didn't go well. I, so I had a few friends. we all lived in the same neighborhood, so we were like, we'd take the same bus to school,

and my best friend lived close to me, and, okay, so let me describe the guy for a second. Let me just set, right? Tell us the story. His name is Nate. This is where the music kicks in that's, like, kind of romantic, a little bit ominous, like, kind of like our show. And his thing was, like, we would be talking about whatever. First of all, he was the first one to get stubble.

You know that feeling when you're like, do you remember this? a little girl and being like, so that one's getting stubble. I don't know why that makes me feel something, but pharomones are happening. And, you know, that one's amazing. For all the other boys, it just makes them feel inferior. Angry? It's like, oh. So, you know, Nate, we would be talking about, like, you know, a book we had read, a movie we had seen.

And no matter what my opinion was, he would just very calmly, just take it apart to the studs. He would tell me why. Every single part of it was wrong. He wasn't being super cruel I mean there is something a little bit mean about doing that But it was good nature But he was just so smart And so cool about it

And I didn't have that many people So you know it was that thing of the of the boy Who's like kind of not scared of you Not intimidated And you know when you're kind of like the smart girl It is it's a strange it's sort of a strange position To occupy in the ecosystem of the school And

But he was was real smart and real confident and very laid back and chill about it and also he'd be like what do you mean you haven't seen say anything like what do you mean you haven't seen uh you know tompopo was one if you have you guys haven't heard of that movie i haven't heard of it um is that horror or is that or is that no no it's like a spaghetti it's a noodle western um it has a famous sexy funny sex scene that is worth everyone seeing it's a classic but he would show me all these classics and what do you mean you've never seen a David Lynch movie?

So I'd end up like sitting next to this guy like in his TV room and he'd be showing and then like Lloyd Dobler would be holding the boom bar or Christian Slater would be setting the school on fire and it was just like all these things were happening at the same time and so I've you know at a certain point

I realized like that feeling is like I'm so in love with him and by the time we were in the ninth grade he was like you know it's school dances and he was like I'm thinking to ask someone to the school dance and no part of me was like maybe he's telling you because you know no no part of me no i couldn't conceive of myself that way really then i didn't have i just thought i was sort of a slightly strange girl who was a lot and so i didn't think of myself or in like you're not going to have boyfriends yet right now you know it's too soon or whatever or maybe never um but that same

in that same, maybe even the same day, my best friend was like, do you think Nate is cute? I think he's, I'm starting to think he's cute. So I was like, okay, I understand my mission. Let me go back to Nate and tell him that Amber thinks he's cute. And she should, he should invite her to the dance. And he did. And they hit it off. And they started dating.

And I had. This is heartbreaking. It was really heartbreaking. I had like boxed myself in so perfectly because I could. could never tell him. And I also couldn't talk to my best friend about it. So you can't tell anybody. Yeah. No one. Just like stewing in those feelings that are new as well. Yeah. It was like, and I think we've established, like my parents were, you know, keeping us safe and fed and clothed, but there was

no, how are you feeling? Or what's coming up for you? There was, I did not have an adult in my life who could be like, this is normal what's happening to you right now. Or maybe pick another plan besides setting them up. Yeah. Oh, Sarah. Does it feel like maybe that he was, I mean, because the way you were telling it first, I thought you were going to end up with,

I thought he was going to ask you. I thought maybe that was what was in the cards. Do you think that if you had not done that, it was possibly in the cards for you? Is that too painful of the questions? No, no, no, no. Here's the craziest part of it, right? So at the end of the ninth grade,

I found out we were moving to California. From where? We were in Cincinnati. I lived in Cincinnati when I was a kid in this age. And so, and this, too, is sort of devastating to move when you're like, 14, 15. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, and leave your friends and leave everyone. And so the night before we move, right after dinner, there's a knock of the door, it's Nate.

And so I go out to chat with him on the porch. He's brought me a farewell gift, which is, of course, a mix, right? And then he says, I've made a terrible mistake. Like, you're the one I've had feelings for this whole time. Sarah. And I was like, but same, though. Same. Same.

And we sort of like, I don't, I know, the rest is sort of a blur. But then I remember he said, I think I owe you a kiss. And I know, right? So we kissed. I wrote about that in my diary for like the next year. 30 years. No, I'm kidding. I mean, I'm actually so impressed by the perfectness of this story.

I know. I know. And I'm really not embellishing this one. sound like it. It's just like these are simple facts. Yeah. Yeah. So we kissed and he left and then the next morning I got in the car and we drove to California. I forgot you were moving to California. And it's not a time of like texting

or cell phones. Yeah. It did not exist. You basically were going to war and never going to see him again. Never did. Have you ever talked to him since? Mm-hmm. You have? Maybe 12 years ago. So he's not on the socials, which is not a surprise. He's too cool. He grew up to be too cool for that. But I had not been in touch with him since we were literally 14, 15 years old.

And I was talking to somebody on, you know, Instagram or something that we went to school. We all went to school. And they were like, yeah, Nate is in L.A. And I found out he lives a mile away from me. And he had actually been living a mile away from me for years. Whoa. And so I reached out and we emailed and we ended up going to that, like, a pub on Main Street in Santa Monica and having a couple drinks and chatting. And it was very strange because it's not like, oh, we went to.

to college and then we, it was like, we were children and now we're adults, but it was sort of lovely to see, you know, who he had turned into and, um, I mean, it's so unlikely that he or his, I presume wife would be listening to the, but, um, I will say that like a couple of drinks in, I had this moment where I looked at him and I just like felt that little surge feeling of attraction. And I was so, I was made so curious by it. I was like, it's been, decades now. I mean, you know, the scientists are right. I don't know what it is between him and I, but I guess it's whatever that is between people, sometimes it's there for their whole lives. And I think that might be why we didn't really become friends. We didn't stay in touch

after that. Sure, yeah. Yeah. That's also that's a beautiful story. That is a beautiful story, and it's very romantic. Yeah. And I'm just, I'm just, I'm just appreciating like the, because again, by me saying that it feels like a perfect story is not to say that it feels embellish, it feels like, I mean, you're a great storyteller and I can feel the romantic in you.

Yeah. Do you know the song, The One by Taylor Swift? Oh, yes, I do. Do you ever listen to that song? I do. I love that album. I love that song. Anyway, just as you were telling that story, I was like, Roaring 20s, Tass and Pennies in the pool. It's just like thinking about that song. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I don't know.

It's incredible. I do feel like because then in my, you know, 30s I met the man that I ended up marrying. And I do have this feeling that you're ready to really be with someone when you've gone through some of that really hard stuff with someone. Like, I mean, at least I wish all the luck and love to people who hook up with somebody really early and then stay with them for their whole lives. And you have to do all of it with one person. But I did, I feel like I got a lot out of that hard break.

I can be a complete mercenary writer about it. Yeah. No, it's valuable stuff that you learn. Yeah. Absolutely. Our other classic question is an embarrassing story from your youth. Wasn't this one? I mean, all of them are embarrassed.

This is embarrassing at a month. I actually feel like... This was elegant, poignant. Yeah, I actually feel like it was really... I feel like it's definitely one of the best told we have. I think so. I was there. Yeah.

And that on the porch, like, man. It was on the porch. That's a good scene. We lived on Grace Avenue. Oh, perfect. And the intersection was Utopia. I mean, I don't know what they were doing in this, yeah. Were you on a lot?

You're in the back lot. You lived in the Truman Show. Do you have an embarrassing story? You don't have to have one, but. I mean, I have a human, I mean, it was, I think it goes beyond embarrassing. I felt embarrassed at the time. I doubt this one would be as well told, so you can take it or leave it. But I did really bring something out sometimes.

in certain adults when I was 12, 13 years old. And I've thought a lot about it. It's like I'm really glad you invited me to come talk to you because I haven't considered that time of life much for a really long time. But now I look back and it just seems so clear to me that when you have a child who has ability in some area, like nowadays or ideally at any point in history, like the adults, their job is to challenge them and keep that kind of. of safe and then also give context for that like doesn't make you the king of the world but it also

you know it's like everybody has their own thing this is your I feel like because I was a smart kid I was skipped up a year which is something I don't think they do much anymore because you cannot skip up emotionally you just cannot but I showed up to kindergarten reading and writing and doing math and stuff so they were just like do you want you know they put me through a lot of tests they skipped me up and then it was not difficult for me to catch up academically and I think so seeing this girl who had also been raised by, you know, one thing that my dad was really adamant about was like, you know, her, his mother had all this unrealized potential because she spent her life serving his father. And she was brilliant and it made him really sad and don't rely on a man.

Like, don't consider yourself different. And so I was raised no different from my brother, intellectually for sure. And I, you know, was often in these. academically gifted classes where everybody was a little obnoxious, right? So I get to this bigger public school and I'm just acting, I'm thinking I should cue off whoever the smartest kids in the class are. I'm not thinking about gender, but I think it really pushed people's buttons that this girl was acting so confident and smart and occasionally interrupting, like not even, you know, but they're not thinking it was worse from the guy.

They're just thinking this. And I feel like the adults around me, they were worried that I would get a big head. And they were worried that I would make other people feel bad. So the messaging that I got was all about tampering it down, not talking about it. Don't think you're smart. Like just, in fact, I didn't. At a certain point, I was like, I was in therapy. And we were talking.

So there was a day where I interrupted my history teacher. And it was towards the end of class. And he was like, in front of the whole class, he told me why that was wrong. And then he said the words, I have never seen a smart girl act like that. I felt everyone around me like shrivel into the earth because they were like, oh, God, this is going to happen. We're all sitting here. And I just sat there like this. And he, I mean, in my mind it was 45 minutes, so it must have been like five.

And he just went off about my behavior. which had never been maybe I was I was probably moderately obnoxious but I was never to the point of and I just had triggered him so much and that too was a thing where I left and it's like I never even told my parents because my job was to fit in and do well and not get in trouble and I didn't know what to do but to go back to class the next day and just shut the fuck up really so see that goes beyond see that was serious everybody's face looks very serious now No, we have plenty of very intense conversation. It's really interesting, Sarah, we just before you came, we interviewed Eliza Schlesinger, and we asked her, because she has a book where she talks about sort of societal expectations that are placed on women, and we asked her, what do you think is one of the most absurd expectations we place on women? And she described exactly the phenomenon that is, like, what happened to you, where we don't want girls to be confident.

We want them to be humble, but not in a way that we expect men to be. It's just so interesting that that's what she said and you're telling a story that is the exact example of what she was describing. It makes me so sad for, well, for so many, just any kid who's considered anything but the person that's appropriate for,

which is a very small minority of children. Like, no girls are in that group. And I hope, I mean, I hope things have gotten better. Like, I'm very lucky to have a beautiful and very brilliant goddaughter. And I really went out of my way to tell her how cool. it was just the stuff that she's good at that we should do more of it like being curious is a

superpower and um i still i feel like i will probably go to my grave with this essential tension between like who i would have been if i just was this um effusive intense curious smart girl and then being told to like keep it down not make someone else feel bad be more of a girl about it and I think the tension between those two things will never fully go away yeah yeah but I think you know I think the point of generations is that like what you having learned from that tension the point of life isn't to get rid of it for yourself but to hopefully like yeah give it a little bit better to your goddaughter all the all the young people you come into contact with throughout your life then it's just like it's about hoping you can lessen that you know

that create more less tension you know I really love that we have our final question I'm that great which is sweet light note

if you could go back to 12 or 13 year old Sarah what would you say or do has anything about my description of her made you think that she would listen to me well that's actually you know what

now having asked this question of so many people my answer is now like I would there's no yeah like would he listen is really actually there is like what what would it take for them to listen as kind of another way to think about it but regardless like if she could hear you i i would i would tell her that that um who she is is a package deal and that her job moving forward is not

actually to make all of the good parts more and like scoop all of the bad parts out with like a grapefruit spoon you know um it took me until like it took a lot of therapy actually for me to realize that I thought all of the difficult and problematic and itchy and weird parts of me like I thought I was going to be like eradicating them completely you know um and now I realize it's like no you're you're going to you're going to get conscious about all of it and you're going to befriend who you actually are um and the sooner you can do that the sooner it doesn't matter so much what the other people say, you know? So, I mean, I can't even imagine how powerful I'd be if I had started being friendly to myself when I was 12, 13 years old. Can you imagine? Like, a lot of stuff gets

held back, I think, just because teenagers are busy hating themselves. They're the most powerful force on the earth. Right. I love that. I really like that you say that. I really, really like that. I think it's so true, too. Um, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So nice. It's great. Yeah, this is lovely. you on Netflix or you can follow her online at Sarah Gamble Sarah with an E. Okay, wait, I have a rapid-fire question just now.

Wait, I forgot in it. Okay, I'll do mine and then we'll come back to you. Stitcher. Thank you.