Podcrushed - Host AMA: Friendship

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

In the first of several themed AMAs this season, Penn, Sophie and Nava tackle timeless questions, like "would you forgive a friend who cheated with your partner while high?", "would you publicly out a cheating spouse?", and "should you let your friends know about all their annoying habits?" Nava recalls her most traumatic friend breakup, Sophie shares how she saved a friendship from drifting too far apart and Penn… is there. Tune in and get ready for some extra laughs this week.    Follow Podcrushed on socials: TikTok Instagram XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada This is podcrushed. Welcome, welcome. This is one of our illustrious host episodes. Navas are doing emails right now. That's fine. That's perfect. That's perfect.

I'm on. And I'll let you know. Not only is it a host episode, it's the one where we're taking on the topic of friendship. So that NAVA is doing admin. Yeah. A pro pro. A pro?

Precious time that we have together. before and after episodes. I'd rather be getting my inbox to zero than connecting with these two clowns. Did you read that link that I sent you? I haven't read it yet. Not yet. Somebody just was skewering email in the Atlantic.

And was clapping. It really does feel like it's become. I don't know. You know, there are different kinds of professionals in the world. I'm only one of them. For me, email, what are we doing?

It's felt like this for so long. Did you ever get that meme I sent? I sent it on the group, but you didn't react where it's like I hope this email finds you well and then it's crossed out and it says I hope this email never finds you yes I hope you find yourself I hope you are free this is why I never got fans emails I reacted IRL to that and I forgot to like tab it you know whatever like oh like IRL to yourself yeah to myself yes welcome to podcrushed we're hosts I'm Penn I'm Nava and I'm Sophie and I think we would have been your middle school besties

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On Our Best Behavior and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread. I explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to Pulling the Thread from Lemonada Media wherever you get your podcasts. So we have some spicy questions. Spicy questions. Should we jump in? The first question that I had to throw in here was a very, an earnest question from a listener.

If someone got with your girlfriend but they were on drugs, would you forgive them? I need to know your answers to that. Well, this gets into a very, very sensitive topic because is it a choice if you're taking drugs? Oh, wow. Is there even free will? And then once you're an addict, do you have a choice? These are huge philosophical questions, but basically, no. Well, what's the drug?

Like, if it's pot, no, you're still, like, aware. But if it's, like, meth, I think my friend has other problems. That's true. Well, they're equally culpable and, like, just, you know, it's not like, bro, why would you do that to me? It's more like, hey, you're both my friends. Could you broaden your horizons, please? Could you look a little further to scratch that itch?

You lazy, good for nothing, two-timing, meth-addicted. I also would really question my girlfriend's own kind of, I don't know, sensibilities. Like, this dude is on meth. Yeah. So obviously the drugs matter. Yeah. In Navas scenario. In high school, probably for the listener who asked, what are the most likely drugs that someone

would be using pot? Maybe people don't even consider that a drug anymore. Nava, you sound 75. When you say drugs and hot. Wait, this is a true story. I've never done drugs in case I was not clear. Someone showed me a picture of a plunger in a trash can, but it was kind of like a pretty blue plunger.

And he's like, what do you think that is? And I was like, like a vehicle for drugs. And he was like a vehicle. I was like, what's I called? Like a bong? And he was like, it's a toilet plunger. So that's my connection. paraphernalia.

Sophie, how would you react? You know, David and I recently, like sometimes we do these thought experiments. They were like, okay, what would you do if I cheated on you? What would you do? And we got into this. Sounds like a healthy. Yeah, that sounds dangerous.

And we decided that we would, you know, one of the things I always feel when people break up or divorce, I'm so curious. I just want to know what happened. And I said, we put everyone out of their misery. We'd make a long Facebook post. chronicling the events Here's what happened

Also, I'm not trying to protect you at that point We're like, David cheated on me Yeah Like good for nothing Yeah No, but actually we asked a friend of ours A couple friend of ours And we said like, what would you do

We were asking everybody What would you do if your partner cheated on you? And they were like Oh, nothing could make us separate at this point And we were like, oh yeah, yeah, same And suddenly we were like, felt like the straight-edge people in high school again, you know? We're like, oh, yeah, of course. We feel the same.

How funny. I bet you this was a fake question. Do you think this was a real question? I think it was a real question. Yeah, I think this person was trying to figure something out. Yeah. Sending much love to the person, to the listener. Yeah.

I don't know that we help them. Basically, leave your girlfriend and find better friends. Yes. I have a question for you guys. Have you made new friends as adults that feel like as authentic or good as your old friendships? They're all better. I kick those old friends to the curb. A lot of people wondered how you can make good friends in your 30s.

Yeah, yeah. In your 30s. Is that? Yeah, like as adults, I guess. Yeah, right. That is an interesting question. I do think about that because I have a lot of rich friendships, but having moved out of New York City recently into a place.

that's really like pretty unfamiliar but then still like work takes me to other places a lot of mobility for so i have not made a lot of new friendships up in this place some but not not i'm in my most like male typical male dad thing where i've been preparing for this crazy job i'm about to start and then so i've not i've not been cultivating authentic relationships at my best these days, but generally speaking, if I think in my 30s, I would definitely say it's the topics you talk about. It's having meaningful conversations. Like, I'm thinking of one friend in particular, he did recognize me. Actually, no, this is known. Christoph, Christoph, you know, gentleman who some may know from TikTok, Chris Heute. He was,

just waiting tables at a place I liked and this was back in probably 2017 I think and um you know I think he did recognize me but but he chose to start I was drawing on the table which everybody did there was paper on the table and so we just started talking about were you at Chuckie cheese is that where he uh-huh I was just like tongue out and just

drawing with my No, I was just drawing, and the first question he asked me, I think, was like, it was something about what I am wanting to communicate in drawing when I'm expressing myself artistically. And I was like, oh, well, let me think about that. And, you know, from that day, I think Chris is, you know, he's still one of my closest friends, it's just, it's a matter of how you initiate and it's what you talk. about and I think like you know I agree with the meaningful conversation part I was thinking about

it I've since I moved to LA I mean you have like existing friends but to make new friends it's been hard and I was thinking about it I've been here two and a half years and maybe two at the two year mark I was feeling like I haven't really made good new friends and I made like one really good friend but she lives in New York and when I've made like a couple of friends here but I felt like friendships could go deeper and I was really feeling that I was missing that a lot and I didn't have a plan of action but I did start to pray about it just kind of like loosely and there's a group of us in my neighborhood who started studying a book together um actually about God like the the nature of God and and some of the like attributes of God can you bulletpoint some of those for us

and I I dropped out of the group because I honestly because I wanted to go to a dance class instead Oh, my gosh. And so, yeah, I dropped out of the group, basically. And one of the girls in the group, who I wasn't close with, texted me and was like, hey, we miss you in the group. You should come back. And, but the dance class was really doing a lot for me for what I was going through mentally. You were just twerking and being like, no, sorry.

And so I was like, that's really sweet. Like, I actually was really touched that she reached out to me. But I was like, but I can't make it on this, on these nights. And she's like, well, why don't you come back to one and then we can see if we could figure out a new night? And I was so moved by that. So anyway, I went back and they changed it. Like they changed it. Like, they changed the night.

And then we just all started doing social things together. And after we would study the book, we just started having really, like, honestly, everyone in the group was single and struggling with that. And we started having really, like, profound conversations about that. And then started, like, giving each other resources. And there's, like, men in the group, too. Men and women, like, helping each other, thinking about things from each other's perspectives.

And we're so close. And now we do, like, a lot of things together. And if someone gets sick, we'll, like, take them supplies. It's really sweet. Like, we've really become a community. and yeah it was just through like studying something together like having a purpose together but then really extending it outside of that and like really caring about each other's lives and being there for each other so I'm really grateful to have found that group of friends

and really grateful to Eileen for texting me and sort of bringing me back in that's so sweet so what you're saying is you're very popular because they all change the day for you they really wanted to hang out with me they didn't know that I left it for a dance class though So I'm like, oh, I hope they're not listening because they changed the whole night so I could go to a Thursday night, dance class. But dance was also very meaningful for you. It was, and it still is, yeah,

it's been a really important thing. So I think that's all right. I think that's a blessing. You were trying to make a choice. You know, you were like, it seems like I have to make a choice between these two things. For now, maybe the right choice is dance.

And then you got both. And then I got both. God is, in fact, good. Yeah. So as a side note, that book that Navajo was studying, I once studied, started studying it too. And I told her, I dropped out because it was too hard for me. And I was like, because part of it is you're distinguishing between the different attributes. So one of the questions, I remember this, this is why I dropped out.

It was like, what's seriously? It was like, what's seriously about the attributes of God? It's really book nine. It's all about the attributes of God. It was, what the question was, what's the difference between mercy and grace? And I was like, I'm out. I do not know. That is too hard.

You're tapping out. Your threshold for mercy is very low, I guess, or high? Hopefully God's mercy for me is high. Yeah. You're definitely taxing the limit, maybe. Yeah. I feel like anytime you commit yourself to something, whether it's like a stage of life or like an activity,

there's opportunity to make new friends is what I've found like becoming a mom I there's like people who've come out of the woodwork who I've like known peripherally in my life but who all of a sudden now we have this really intense experience to relate on so that's one thing but I think also quantity of time is important yeah that's very true they say about how does a like I don't know what the life if it's like how does a child how does a child speak? Spell love. T-I-M-E. Aw, that's really cute, actually. Never cringed. She was like, I hate this, man. And I was like,

aw. What is it? The grass is greener where you water it? I mean, the popular one is the grass is green on the other side, but then it's actually the grass is green. What I said, what I was saying, is it in order for a child to love you,

you need to spend time with them. well let's call it what it is we really if we're having a host episode and we're talking about ourselves and anything that we do in our lives there's no there's no way for us to escape just being transparent and like we're bahais which means that we're trying to live this life of like integrity where spiritual transformation is linked to that of our community and that of society around us so all of our I mean you know my first thought when when the question came up It's like, oh, well, just like spiritual themes, spiritual topics, which is, which, you know, I mean, that's the way to found relationships in something deep, you know, and depending on your name, depending, you know, the conversation can go any number of ways. But like, we're just talking about, talking about how to, how to get by on this little blue rock. Yeah.

Yeah. Wait, I do have to say, recently I met somebody new. And I also, I do feel like a little bit of nervousness when I meet new people. I think that's normal And She's like right Right? Right?

Right? No one said anything I paused I paused so that you could jump in But right No But this This girl

Immediately was extremely friendly Like she immediately took my arm And was like Oh my gosh, she's pregnant too And she's like Oh my gosh Tell me everything What's it like

She was just very like Notisably friendly And I was like Whoa It immediately put me She on drugs Meth maybe

check David's phone oh my god it's a call back it didn't it didn't hit right it didn't hit right that was funny the pregnant woman sleeping with your friend's husband didn't have the effect you were going for

but it just immediately put me at ease and made me way more friendly and I was like oh that's so cool I can actually do that like I can just make a decision to be the friendly, the really friendly person that then puts other people at ease and disarms them. So I think that's also cool is that you can make a decision like that. You can decide to act in the way you want other people to act towards you.

Yeah, that's really good advice, Sophie. Thanks. Drifting friendships, do you fight for them or do you let them fizzle? Usually helps if you just have a podcast together and then it just got to take care of us. This friendship has been fizzling for a long time. This is drifting. This is like a Tokyo drift. I think you have only so much time in your life for friends and for like, you know, that you cannot.

Like we said, you need to give time to your friendships. And so you only have so much time. If there's a friendship that is drifting and there's not really a reason to, like if you are long distance and there's not really a reason to rekindle it, I don't know. Is that bad for me to say? I would just let it. It's lazy. This is why I'm a bad friend. But I just say, how do you can't call?

T-I-M-E. I think it also depends, like, honestly, how many friends do you have? Like, because I think we all need friends. And it's like almost the kind of relationship that it is changing a bit, but it's the relationship that we don't talk about that much in media. Friendship? We did in the 90s, friends. But, yeah, there's not so much on friendship anymore.

Maybe I'm wrong. That is interesting. Even like for married couples, one thing that I hear. It's like when you get married, sometimes people stop reaching out. Or it's sort of like, oh, they've already got someone. So, like, people don't cultivate friendships with married couples as much. And that can be really lonely. Like, you can still love your partner and be lonely.

Like, your partner doesn't satisfy every need. Oh, yeah. On top of being famous, total island. I think if you don't have that many friends, then maybe fight for the friend that you do have. But if you have a lot of friends and this is just like one of many in your friendship cup is full. And you perceive that that person's friendship cup is full. But for whatever reason, you're just not connecting that much with each other. then I think it's fine.

But yeah, I think if you struggle to make friends and try to figure out why it's drifting and do you just need to be a little more proactive, do you need to do things together, do you need to be a little more vulnerable with each other? Yeah. Yeah. I think friendships also need purpose, though.

To me, why a lot of them drift is because we're so circumstantial in our lives. That's why I brought up spiritual themes earlier and we were, you know, I mean, to me it's like, if there isn't something rooting a relationship, let's just broaden and say also just it's a type of relationship. most other relationships there's a you know there's a reason like it's either a work relationship or a family relationship but friends are the ones that we say you choose you know yeah and but we're like on what basis are we choosing them it's like hey you're close to me like I mean literally I think

that's kind of you know in school that's sort of what it is like hey we're sitting next to each other you know that is sort of how a lot of friendships happen and so for me That's why the first half of my life friendships were so circumstantial that they didn't really stand the test of time past, you know, say 10 or 15 years. So that now nearing 40, my most meaningful relationships are from when they had, they started to be injected with purpose, you know, in like my mid-20s. I feel like what I said could be, I didn't quite finish my thought because I feel like it- Because I cut you off. No, no, no, no. I just, it seemed like I was saying, just don't fight for your friendships.

It did. I don't, I don't, that's not what I, what I mean, because actually I've had the experience where friendships that are really important to me have started to drift and I wasn't sure why. And if I had just let them fizzle, that would have been tragic, like actually tragic. Like some of my best, best friends. One of my best friends, Shearing, we moved away from each other. We used to sleep in the same bed. We were like, inseparable.

And we, she got married. I got married. We lived in different states and we just were talking less and less. And I could have just let that fizzle. It did for some time. Like we were drifting and neither of us really reached out about why. How long? How about long?

I would say probably over the course of a year and a half or two years. Yeah. And we ended up having a conversation about it. And I went to go and visit her, which is again on that point of like committing time. Like you have to spend time with each other. and now we're best friends again I feel like if I had just I could have easily just let that drift

and gone forward but how have you spent time being that you are like at least a thousand miles apart aren't you? Yeah visiting each other I missed an episode because I was because I was visiting her So

Which episode was that? Do you remember? Lori Santos sadly I know I'm glad on I am bummed about that I am Yeah. I am bummed about that. Sophie is less happy because she misses that episode. No, but actually...

Well, she's happier because she was with a friend. A friend. That's true. You followed, you followed Lori's advice. Exactly. I think you said that in the band. You were living it. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, all that to say, I think it is really important to fight for your friendships.

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sort of book these trips. When he's as intense to him together physically, he just means amounts of time in person. Yeah, yeah. Not like anything else. Yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, my God. And we're not like mountain climbing together

doing intense activity. Yeah, although we should. We should. That would be great. Because that's what I'm saying. Yeah. A lot of what we end up doing is remote kind of connecting. Yeah.

Which actually, I think for me, having moved out of the city, has been true for so many friendships. during this stage, which I feel like is coming to an important close. You know, our youngest toddler is, he's getting older. So, like, things are just more, you know,

two years ago, we were still in a pandemic world. And so, but I feel like we now, we're seeing each other in person more, which is nice. And there's, by the way, there's like aspects to you, which I don't, I realize, like, I don't get to, interact with as much because now we've now I'd say given the time we've known each other this like

you know we've been so remote for the last four years or whatever it's starting to outweigh the times that we were friends before and so you know there's just there's just parts to a person you don't know when you're remote you just like it's like even if you know them very well you're not interacting with that part of them and now a part of you you're so um you're so like uh silly and impersonable and like you're constantly you know doing that like sort of shoving someone and being in like laughing which is so not you know what I mean it's like

a like how do you say that in a way that doesn't sound like shoving you know like that thing you're tactile you know you see babies you love to hold and kiss babies and that's just not a part of you that anyone gets to get to interact with over Zoom

and so that's unfortunate I do remember once Penn was here in LA this was like a few months ago maybe over the summer and I was driving I'm a very bad driver. Everyone knows that. It's come up on our podcast repeatedly, but I was trying to parallel park. Do you remember that? No, it wasn't. There was like a sign or something. No, no, no. You have parked my car before, but

I started to tell the wrong thing. I, like, missed a parking spot. We had a meeting and we were going to be late because I missed a parking spot because I didn't interpret the sign correctly. And Penn's like, you can park there. The sign says blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm just like such a dumb person. And I just remember you started laughing and you were like, I never get this from you on Zoom. And it was like, oh, like,

I think in person, I'm also more self-effacing. But yeah, it, like, struck me that I was like, oh, yeah, I guess like there's parts of each other's personalities that we really miss out on because you're in a different mode and we're mostly on meetings. A couple months ago, you were here in L.A. Penn for meetings with 9th mode and you came over to meet Anais and it was just David Penn and I was like, oh, I hardly ever spend time with Penn without NAVA. And then it's like the three of us as like a podcast, like a co-host crew. We get together and it's like Captain Planet or the Avengers or some other Power Ranger type. It's like there's two modes when we're together. It's like banter mode or just like work mode.

The point is we have to get it all on tape. It's all for show. But like, you know, get these things done. And I was like, I rarely spend time with pen that's not like work related. And it was so sweet and so nice. Just to say it's true, we rarely spend time together outside of the context of work. and then we're missing out on so much of each other's personalities. It's so true.

Yeah. And that's, you know, again, to me, that's a habit of life that just didn't, it was nowhere near as pronounced as it is before the pandemic, you know, like, I don't know. I've mentioned the pandemic a lot in the last, but I've been thinking about it because it has had an effect, especially like, at least for me, having a child for the first, like a newborn for the first time in, the pandemic and how much that also just the ripple effects. So to me, that's something that is, that we should include remedy.

You know, there's the thousands of miles between us which don't make it easy. But, but that's, and I'm just thinking about it for all things. You know, I really am thinking about like just wanting to spend more time with the people I love. With Sophie, because I feel like Penn and I, because we have like frequent calls and then I'm like often trying to get his like male perspective on things that I'm going through. I just like naturally open up to him. But I feel like with Sophie,

I've been making more of an effort to like open up to you too about stuff that I'm going through because I feel like it is a way to like deepen a friendship. And so just to say that I have been like consciously. So that's all calculated. No, but it's in a good way. It's like, oh yeah. Like I feel like it's good to just be like open and yeah. And I feel that. I do feel that. And it's been really sweet. and I also noticed that we had a mutual friend in town, Nava and I, and we got to see each other like two days running not at all related to work because of this friend. And I was like, oh, that's really sweet.

It just, yeah, we should do that more. We did. Yeah, so we are real friends, guys, but also colleagues. Both are true. But also not. Have you ever dealt with a friendship breakup that felt even more painful than a romantic one? yes this was sort of related to the friendship drama I had a friend when I lived in when I lived abroad and um we were like serving together and we had become very very close and then one day she stopped

talking to me and to this day I don't know why we did end up like reconnecting but it was always bumpy my the best that I never addressed it no we did try to but the best that I could piece together is that she felt like I had betrayed her because I I was friendly with an ex who had betrayed her. Were you on drugs, though? I didn't date. No, I didn't date him. It wasn't like friendly, intimately.

But I think her school of thought is like loyalty to me would mean that when this guy betrayed me, you don't ever talk to him again. And you said the oneness of humanity. Yeah. This is what I'm piecing together because I could never figure it out. But I remember, I think it was extremely painful because I didn't understand why she wouldn't talk to me. And she was very like, I kind of want to say extreme about it.

If I would go to a meeting that she was at, she would leave the room. And she started telling people, like, Nav and I don't talk to each other. So then people thought that I was like part. I was like, I don't want to be part of this drama. Like, I don't choose to not talk to people all of a sudden. That's not the way that I operate. Even when I'm mad at someone, like, anyway. But, yeah, it was really painful and confusing.

And I felt like I had no closure. So it was very hard to, I would, like, cry about it a lot and, like, was really sad about it for a long time. So that was, like, a very painful. Would you ever, because it sounds like you did reconnect a little bit, but never, did I understand this right? You never actually addressed. We did address it. We did address it and I, I don't, she didn't tell me the betrayal thing.

That was something that I later, because she had the same situation with someone else where she stopped talking to them because they were still friends with her ex. And I was like, I think that's what happened to me. But, um, she, she just said that she felt like she had to walk around eggshells with me because I was too sensitive. I remember her saying that. But I'm like, that's why you stopped talking to me and told people that we couldn't be friends and you would leave a room when I would enter. Like, that doesn't make sense that I'm too sensitive. so I'm not saying I'm not too sensitive and that she didn't have to walk on eggshells

but I don't think that's the heart of why we stopped being friends That sounds like somebody taking an attribute magnifying it and not being honest about what's going on Because if you really make it about them That's not that feels to me like a What about you guys? Have you had any friendship breakups? I have, yeah

Do you want to share? No, I mean I mentioned this But my friend from high school who was my best friend. We lived, our houses backed on to each other. So from my bedroom window, I could look at her bedroom window. We could, like, see each other. We could jump into her window from yours?

Wasn't that close. But we could, we would bike to school together every day. We would spend all of our waking moments together. And then we sort of drifted in China, in Beijing. Okay. And we sort of drifted in our last year of school and then, you know, moved on to other things. and I reached out to her recently last year maybe a year and a half ago and asked her why we drifted. I never really remembered.

And then her experience was totally different from mine. And we tried to reconnect. Like we, similar to what you were saying, like we tried to consciously build up our friendship again. But I think like you were saying, Penn, it was like outside of the parameter. Like outside of the bracket of time that was acceptable. Yeah, I couldn't Tokyo drift. and it just has never really fully like and both of us I think have tried to like instigate communication and like check in and then it's always feels like it's not quite reciprocated and it's just it's just tricky she did text me for my birthday this this morning actually it's my birthday yes just so you know wait is your birthday today happy birthday wait we have to sing her happy birthday oh it's so perfect for this because I had no idea 31 30 30 oh my god you're 30 years old she's so young

A little spring chicken. You're 30? I mean, you know, it's funny, I knew that. I knew that you were young, but not anymore because you're 30. I love that you guys are saying that because, you know, 30 is like a milestone year. So I'm like, oh God, 30. No, it is. It is.

I recall, my 30th birthday was still the best of any. But I felt lighter. I was like, I'm finally not, you know, quote unquote, so young, you know. So I feel you. I do feel you. It's a major. Today's your 30th birthday. Day.

Yeah. I'm going to sing to you in Persian. Tava lo. Tava loz, mavara. I love this. Oh, thank you guys. No, happy birthday, Sophie. Are you going to do anything fun?

David and I are going to go out for dinner tonight. Nice. Do you have a spot? Yeah, we're going to go to Sugarfish for sushi. Are you taking the baby? Yeah, we're taking the baby. Yeah, I was assuming so. But yeah.

So you're doing two podcast episodes and a dinner with a baby. What a perfect first day. accommodating birthday. Yeah. But no, it is hard to have a birthday during the fast because nobody can really do it. I still have like this plan of inviting people after the fast or something. You can do a big dinner. People love to break dinner during the fast. That's true. You're always a fast baby.

Yeah. Yeah. I actually remember for one of your birthdays, I think the only one I went to New York was we all went to Shake Shack. It was so fun. Yes, that was like a tradition for a while because it's like a perfect, everyone can afford it. Yeah. It's like easy. But yeah, maybe I'll do something at the park after. Burgers and a milkshake during the fast? I haven't done that yet. That's heaven. I did it Sunday when I landed from Scotland.

One day I wasn't fasting because I was traveling. And I had a burger and a double burger with what is it called? A black and white shake and fries. And I was just like, I feel worried about this. This might be what I ate for dinner tonight. This is amazing. But what was I saying? By the way, I don't want anybody to think that was some kind of paid advertisement.

That was legit. Which is rare from Penn. Yeah. So she, you know, we'll keep in touch on certain milestones like that, but it's not quite ever been the same. And it is painful. Yeah. Yeah. This actually leads me to another question, but Penn, have you had a friendship breakup?

You know, I think they just drift. They don't. I've never had a friendship breakup that I can think. of I might be missing something because I'm the hot one who left you know but I think someone pointed out something about friendship breakups to me because a lot of people

asked us why does a friendship breakup feel more painful than a romantic breakup a lot of the times? I don't agree though I don't think I agree I don't think for some people I think I think maybe especially for women like friendships yeah because you guys don't love us that much it's hard to love you guys You know, but I think it's because there isn't this expectation of communication that there isn't a romantic relationship.

Like if you break up with a romantic partner, there's going to be clarity around why it's going to be very distinct and clear. But if you... Although not always, but yes. But yeah, you're right. You're right. But yeah, more likely. But if you have a friendship, there's not really this like culture of communication and friendships all the time. where you talk about that kind of stuff.

You do just let it drift. You don't really let... Especially for men, by the way. I think I would love to know if there's any kind of data, any kind of number we can look at. Like, I wouldn't even refer to a friendship breakup as a friendship breakup.

You know what I mean? That's not the way I think about them. I definitely... I was thinking, as you both were answering because I didn't want to listen to you, I was just trying to think about my answer. I was just trying to think about... I was just trying to...

I was just trying to... to think about um uh you know seasons for me i've had like you know many many like great friendships and for them to last longer than 10 years though i think it's hard because um uh i i i do move enough like you know 20 is a big marker because i moved from la to new york city and so i have my west coast relationships and my east coast relationships and um and then you know in new york is interesting because it's like i feel like you have seasons of great friendships but for them to last longer than 10 years i'm you know there's got to be something really grounding them and um i think for me

the test of a great friendship is how long can you go before just picking up almost as though you've never left off. And I do have a number of those. It's just that if they're in that state, it probably is that we're just in different phases and different patterns of life. So we're not going to pick it up that much. But when we do, you know, I have a couple, I can think of a few, like a couple of great, great guy friends who, if we were to meet up, go have dinner, it would kind of be, you know, the same. I was trying to think of what I was going to say while you were talking and I did think of it. I could see you just zoning out.

Just like, hmm. But now I got it. Then I started to get interesting. So I started to listen again. Right. Now you forgot what you're going to say. Oh, no, no. This is a plug for everybody to go listen to an episode of Esther Perel's podcast.

Where should we begin? Esther. Stare. Yeah. Did I not say? Did I say Esther? Esther. Yeah, I shouldn't have called you out.

Um, she interviews two guy friends who. have been friends since childhood and drift apart. And one of them decides to invite the other one to do like a session of therapy on her podcast with him. And it is so beautiful. I don't have an answer to this, but it's something that I go back on fourth on, which is like, when should you call someone out in a friendship? Because like if someone hurts your feelings or you sort of draw attention to it.

Because what I have found is that sometimes when you do that, the friendship doesn't feel the same after her. And I think sometimes it is better to just shove things under it. Like sometimes it's actually okay to just ignore it or to give someone grace. Like I had one friend who she's very honest and very brave. I think it's one of her best qualities. And she has this tendency of like anything you do that bugs her. She'll tell you. And she's like that with everyone. And I've seen her lose a lot of friends over it. And for me like it did, I just started to feel like a little less at ease around her. Like I have. And and I appreciate that you always know where you stand with her and she's really caring and but it's like I just like it just doesn't always mean that much or like

you could just let me have it like you don't need to point out everything that someone is doing wrong but then there are times when I've like reached out to someone so there was someone recently where something happened that heard my feelings and I reached out to her and brought it up and we went to dinner but the friendship hasn't been the same and I'm like I actually think it was a mistake it wasn't a big enough deal I don't feel like I needed to bring it up and so I'm just curious your guys's thoughts on like when do you call it out when do you just like let it this is actually a great question yeah it is um because it gets at like a hang on stuff i'm going it's me now it's me uh no i don't i actually don't have anything to say please go i was just

going to say that my experience in my marriage i think there's like a helpful thing that i've learned in marriage that can apply you guys are best friends okay no no it's just that sometimes i do that thing where i'm like i'm just going to move past i'm just going to try to to get over it and then David will be like what's wrong what's going on and I'm like no no no it's fine we don't need to talk about it he's like well you're acting different towards me so we do need to talk about it

so I'm like I think that's the marker is like if you can actually like if you can actually move past it and still treat the person the same and not be like thinking about it then move past it you don't need to bring it up but if it's something that you act that is informing the way that you're acting or if you're like acting annoyed or

then you do you need to bring it up. I fully agree with that. I think that's actually a very simple and basic kind of kind of law for that. Because to me, if you really can get over it, unlike Sophie, then I think you should and could. And it just is easier because it is true. Like as Navas said, constantly bringing those things to attention. Even if it's, it sounds like this particular friend you have is maybe it has to.

quality I think it's a principle of hers just like bring it up immediately address it and there's there's a world where theoretically

that sounds good yeah that theoretically sounds like a good practice but somehow I totally understand how it's not

you know I know I know that my my I mean I've hardly yeah I mean I don't bring things up like that

I tend to not I'm trying to think like really really when 10 times it has been difficult yeah to me I mean here's the other thing too

it's like it's okay for friendships to change and ultimately end or just to not be as rich as they were as long as as it's not like somehow an inappropriate loss or like you're not sort of just going through moving through friendships too quickly you know yeah yeah it's okay

it's it's not we can't be friends with everybody all the time yeah and so to me I'm just thinking like we should be really forgiving with each other and I don't know that we are culturally. We're kind of, we're both like punishing and passive aggressive at the same time, you know, like culturally, individual basis, whatever.

So I don't know. I do think it's like, we should try to be really gracious and merciful. Yeah. If you can discern the difference. Yeah, yeah. And we'll be right back. fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look luckily quince makes it easy to look polished stay warm and save big without compromising on quality quince has all the elevated essentials for fall think a hundred percent mongoling cashmere from fifty dollars that's right fifty dollars washable silk tops and skirts and perfectly tailored denim all at prices that feel too good to be true i am currently eyeing their silk miniskirt. I have been dying for a silk miniskirt. I've been looking everywhere at thrift

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Here's what I wish people realized about me. I'm not sure. I just wanted to read that question. Yeah, it's a very sweet question. You wish people realized about you. That I'm a human being. I have feelings too. Stars.

They're just like us. that also makes you sound 75 like you're reading people in 2003 you know I do recall one time I mean this is probably over 20 years ago seeing people you know I can't remember the context of like why I had it

but it's just it's always stuck in my mind the one stars like us that I can never remember because I'm really not one to read those magazines I think it was Cindy Crawford stepping over the the pump at the gas station like she's just stepping over the pump as one does and it said

you know I guess the whole thing is like stars they're just like us and then it says they do this they do that they eat chips and this one said they get tangled up with the pump and it's just her just like a many paneled like stop motion book of her stepping over the pump And I remember at what I was probably 15

And I just thought this is the most vapid Like I am sorry for us all I'm so sorry to her I'm sorry to me I'm sorry to the person who had to put this together Yeah it's true Anyway you know later we did become friends We were we were out to dinner

It's true it's true I just want to address the elephant in the room Yeah Yeah, I guess that's a good, what do you, I feel like I don't feel terribly misunderstood, which is nice. I'm sure earlier in my life I did. Maybe just said I'm not just a brain. I'm also a body. Oh.

Like the opposite of most women. They're like, I'm not just a hot body. I also have a mind. And I'm like, I love that you just basically just said all women are hot. Every woman is just like, oh, I'm so hot. Please appreciate my interior. And I'm like, yeah, everyone's only appreciating my interior. There is an exterior here too, guys.

That's so funny. That's so funny. What do I use, Oveet? What do I wish people? That I have a brain. Everybody knows that. Hmm. I think I agree with you. I don't feel terribly misunderstood, which is really nice. I'm like, I share a lot online. So I'm like, people know a lot. I don't know if there's anything I wish people knew.

Maybe you want to pump the brakes on that. I think people should know. I think people should know more mysterious. I think people should know more about how great you are at accents. Like, let's just, I know we've talked about this before, but not in a long time. Oh my gosh. I have to tell you guys. My niece. You are so good at accents. So good at accent. My sister lives in Scotland and her first daughter is three years old. And I said, they just had Mother's Day. And they went out to dinner. I said, her name's Theo. I said, Theo, where did you guys go for dinner? And she said, we had Indian food. And I was like, oh, my God. She's finally getting the accent. I was like, no, no, no. She's like, terrified that she's going to get a Scottish accent. No, no, no. She's like, food, food. Indian food. I was out when we were in Scotland just now.

We were out with friends who were also doing some business with. And they couldn't say mush. Oh, that was so weird. They could either say mush or moosh. Yeah. And it was so sweet to hear grown men, by the way, grown-ass men trying to say mush. It was just not a sound that they could make. They were like moosh.

And it was, we were cracking up. I mean, it was really, really a funny time. Can you say that one more time, like your little niece said? We were getting, you know, we were getting Indian food. Yeah. That's really good because it does sound like a toddler too. Indian fed. That's really good.

I love the Scottish accent. I love it. It's great. How about you, Ben? Anything you wish people knew? Besides you being a human being. Yeah, besides me being a human being. I think it's probably like,

I think if I really could only pick one, it'd be like, just realize less about me. I don't, I wish that there was a way to, you know, I'm happiest when I'm not worried about what it is that people think of me. And, you know, that's true for any and all of us. That's a universal thing. But no one has to deal with it like a famous person in that particular way. I'm not saying it's the worst plight.

I'm just saying it is a unique thing. that if you're not famous, you don't have to deal with it in the same way. And for me, I just feel like the managing, feeling as though you need to or that you even can manage this perception of you, which ultimately you can't. You can only do it by the things that you do that you're known for. So it's like either the projects you choose, you don't always get to choose as much as you want, or the things that you say, but then if you're trying to explain yourself, like that's, you know. So my trouble is that I am totally down to kind of answer any question somebody asks.

asks me impress. You know, I really am, and I try to give a thorough and authentic answer because otherwise, like, it feels like that much more of a waste of time to do it all, you know? But I do, as I get older, I just want to check myself and be like, well, you know, I can't, I can't explain myself here. I can't make everything about me known as much as I wish I could. So. Yeah. You know, yesterday, David and I were watching this video, where Killian Murphy was being interviewed about how his family reacted to him getting the nomination for the Oscar for Best Actor.

And he was sort of like, he was like, oh, yeah, you know, it was whatever. It was, you know, I was with my family and they gave me a hug and that was that. Like my mom put on the tea or something. And the interviewer kept pressing him, kept pressing him like, but there must have been some, like a little bit more of a reaction and like, what, what is? did he say? What did your mom say? What did your dad say? Kept pressing him and kept pressing him. And finally, when he got to the end, he was like, well, you know, it just feels like language kind of fails you at that point. Like I could say it was a thrill. I could say it's incredible. I could say all of these things and they all feel a little bit trite, like a little bit hollow when you try to assign like a word to it. And I was thinking throughout the course of that video, my opinion of Killian Murphy changed. I was like, you just don't know anybody ever,

especially someone you don't actually know. Like, you form so many opinions. You actually don't know Killing-Refi. That's the thing. Yeah, I actually don't know him. Unfortunately, I realized he was like my greatest childhood crush, actually, from Red Eye, that movie. Oh, my gosh.

Red Eye? Rachel McAdams. Yeah. Red-Eye? A pen stuck in the throat. So, such a good movie. Wow. Have you seen it?

I haven't seen it. Guys. I have to see it. I love plain dramas. I love dramas that take place on a plane. Not that. It's not so much a drama. Flight plane.

She takes them seriously. Not snakes. What do you think of, what's it called? The one with Denzel Washington where he fly, is it just called Flight? What is that one called? Oh, actually I know what you're talking about. Is it the one where he plays that captain?

No, never mind. Well, yes. No, keep going. Yeah, okay. No, I know. Anyway, the point of my story, Wilesrich, I'll get back to now. Thank you. Sorry.

We're just trying to keep the ball in the air. Sorry, sorry. Just that you think you know people from, like everybody has an online presence now. And so you think it's not only now with celebrities. It used to only be with celebrities, I think. And now it's with everybody. Like you think you know somebody. And it's not, they might not even be like intentionally hiding anything.

But it's just like they haven't been asked the right questions or, you know, like, you just haven't gotten deep enough. So it's tricky. There's so many like opinions. that people have of other people. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing where people really do think they know you. And I, of course, fall victim to it all the time. And I'm just in a phase of life where I'm like this whole thing of

the culture of like, I don't know, like needing to know. That's so true. There's something there that is just like, what is going on, y'all? We're demanding things of each other that are kind of impossible. Okay, I think we have time for one more question. How about what is your favorite depiction of friendship in a book, TV show, movie? Oh, great question. I know.

My Brilliant Friend. I haven't read the book. It's a book by Elena Ferranti. It's like a series of books. They adapted it into an HBO show. I can't believe you haven't seen it. Guys, okay, you need to watch my brilliant friend and you need to watch Red Eye in that order. I'm not going to watch Red Eye.

I'm just being clear. What? There's so many things. on the list. Okay, but my brilliant friend is actually like a masterpiece. Okay. It's about two girls in Sicily. Follows them from when they're little girls to when they're adults. And it's so beautiful.

I was just saying that there aren't enough depictions of friendships on TV. So my answer's going to be really annoying. I'll just say quickly, I mean, it's not for the depth of the friendships, but it's just like the fun friends. It's still like my eternal. I watch it. It helps me fall asleep. I just love the like, you know, they're always in each other's lives and it feels fun. But I was going to say, my.

favorite depiction of any relationship that I've ever seen on television is coach Eric and Tammy on Friday Night Lights. I've never seen a marriage depicted in that way and they're friends, like they're really friends as married partners. But yeah, it's just like, to me, it felt like the most realistic depiction of like a positive marriage that doesn't feel like Disney or Hallmark, but where this like husband and wife go through struggles and they really try to support each other and sometimes they have a hard time understanding each other and the way they like come to agreement. It's just like really well done. And I remember watching it and being like feeling nourished by it somehow. Like, oh, I want to see more portrayals like this. And this is the first

one that I've seen that I can relate to. Like this feels like a real couple with real struggles. I love it. I need to watch that. I wish I had a great answer. The first thing that came to mind, not because it's what I think of as friendship, but I realize, you know, on a little podcast like this one, we're always thinking about what things formed us. and how we think of friendship. It's really, really, you know, if you plummet's depths, it's a really effed up answer. Fight Club.

The one between Tyler Durden and the narrator, which is to say Brad Pitt and Edward Norton and Fight Club, this is not a friendship. I mean, for anybody who's not seen it, I'm about to spoil it. Wait, was that your real answer? Well, it's no, it's not my... Oh, I just said it as a joke. Yeah.

No, it is a joke. But I'm realizing, like, it's kind of... It's the, something, it's kind of like, I'm just being honest about the first thought that came to mind. So clearly there's a, there's, I received this message for a while that that is somehow a desirable, or it's just what I, you know, for whatever reason, because they both are so awesome in that movie.

That's probably a sense of. So before the reveal, the way that they're friends to you felt like an amazing. friendship. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, no, that kind of makes sense. Yeah. I think so because it's like it's because, okay, this is boiling it down to its essence, not always what it was. Like it had this courageous honesty in it. It, it had a lot of intimacy, you know, like even physical intimacy, but that's, of course, men are only allowed to do it in that way, so blah, blah, blah. That's what that whole movie's sort of about anyway.

That's what is this fight club about? I don't even know at this point. When you say physical intimacy and it's the only way men are allowed to express it, is it them fighting is that the physical intimacy yeah yeah because it's called fight club and they and they fight no they do actually fight it's not a metaphor they fight okay got it's not an allegor I guess I just wouldn't have thought of people fighting is intimate but that's yeah that's interesting but we're men and that's what that's what the whole point is that is that is it for lack of a meaningful intimacy you know for ultimately for fear of being called gay you know at least culturally in the past that's

that's what we men I'll speak for all of us that's what we've been left with is fighting so yeah I really don't have an answer beyond that because I'm just thinking to myself

like I don't yeah I don't know I don't know that I can think of I will agree with you that friends is like an anesthesia bath And, you know, just like, if relationships could really be like this. Yeah.

Yeah. Or if you could really live across the hall from your best friends. Right. So fun. And afford that apartment. Yeah. This was so fun. Yeah.

Sure. Hang out soon. Yeah. For real. Great. With no cameras. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, first we've got to record another episode. So I'll see you guys in a little bit. Okay. Bye. Bye. Thank you.