Podcrushed - Host AMA: Loss

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

In our fourth "Ask Me Anything" episode of the season, the hosts answer your listener submitted questions about loss. From the passing of loved ones, to the ending of relationships -- it's all on the table.    Follow Podcrushed on socials: Instagram TikTok XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonado. All right, this is, what are we calling it? Loss. This is Loss. Clapping, three, two, one. Boom. Loss, baby. Loss, baby.

From Navakavalent, 2024. Yeah, this is a sort of like, I feel like, no preamble. Maybe we just jump in. It was one of the themes we wanted to explore. You guys sent some thoughtful questions. Maybe we just jump right in. You may have lost a family member, but you're gaining this episode.

Right? Yeah. You know? See, you've lost someone, or maybe just a relationship, maybe that's all. But you're gaining laughs. Yeah, I'm not gaining any laughs.

The three of us have lost our chemistry. Yeah, yeah. Well, don't you think we should have started with, hello, welcome to Podcrash? Oh, yeah. We could have done that. Yeah, hello. Why don't you do it?

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current diet. My dogs are like my children, literally, which is why I'm committed to giving them only the best. Hold on. Let me start again because I've only been talking about Louie. Louis is my beep. Louis, you might have heard him growl just now. Louis is my little baby. and I'm committed to only giving him the best. I love that Nom Nom's recipes contain wholesome nutrient-rich food, meat that looks like meat and veggies that look like veggies because, shocker, they are. Louis has been going absolutely nuts for the lamb pilaf.

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pulling the thread i explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves others and the world around us i hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth, listen to pulling the thread from Lamanada Media wherever you get your podcasts. What was the first loss you can remember and how did it impact you?

This isn't necessarily have to be about death, but obviously death is something we'll get to you. I think there's all kinds of losses. In fact, we really shouldn't just be. It shouldn't just be about death. Okay, this wasn't a death, but it was like the first loss that I remember really hitting hard

was we had this little, Scottish Terrier named Meshki, which means just is like a dark. It's a word in Persian. Anyway, he was a little black Scottish Terrier. Meshki, we loved him. He was our first family dog, and he had a really severe flea allergy. And flea medicine was not as advanced as it is now. You could get flea collars and do flea baths, but we lived by the ocean, and it was just

sort of like there was no way to avoid him interacting with other dogs on his walks and getting fleas. And it was just like ruining his skin. And basically the vet told us we had to move or give the dog away. Like there was no solution where we were. So we had to give the dog away. We had to rehome him. And that was like a brutal loss.

I was eight years old. And I just remember like really crying over losing Meshki. Yeah. That's rough. Sophie knows what it's like to lose a dog. I do. Actually, I was thinking about not that dog, but a different dog that my... Yeah, that you gave away.

Yeah, my parents did. They trained me. Why did your parents give the dog away? They called her, her name was Lou, Lulu, Lulu. And they called her... It's hard to remember now. They called her the devil's spawn. She was, we just didn't train her and she was, she's a cocker span.

She needed like more activity than we gave her. But they ended up giving... She was a way to a family. And I like was so upset with them over it. This wasn't my first loss. This was when I was like 18 or so. I was so upset about it And then a few years later

I found out I asked about Lulu I said like can the family send us some pictures And then they had to break it to me That six months after they gave her away The family lost her They never told me Oh my gosh

They're like we can't tell Sophie this Wow that was rough I thought you were going to say they just put her down I thought that's what you were going to say too But a lost dog is almost more sad At least you have finality The dead dog You don't think so

Well, I mean, if it's lost, it's probably dead. Yeah. My first loss that I remember is actually my grandfather. I was 12 years old in sixth grade. And I remember I was in Miss Hills English class. And my father came into the classroom. And the whole class was like whispering, like, why is Sophie's dad here? What's going on?

And he just had like a smile on his face. I couldn't tell. I like wasn't expecting him to come to school. He never came to school. if anyone was going to come pick me up, it would have been my mom. So it was confusing and also exciting. And I felt like, you know, like I was like the talk of the classroom for a second. And, and, which was my whole goal in life.

Clearly. You're like, grandpa's dead. Yes. No, at this point you didn't know. At this point, at this point, at this point I didn't know. It was, I just remember my dad had this, like, very, like, eerie smile on his face. And he went. And maybe this is not his father.

This was your mother's father. This was his father. This was his father. Oh, okay. Different grandfather. But I think he was trying, like, didn't know how to act in this moment, this like, moment in time before he's able to tell me, you know. And he died kind of young, you know, as far as parents go. I think he was 75 when he died.

So he was that old. Can I pause for a moment and just say that he may have been having this, I can imagine as a father that like suddenly if you're, you've lost a parent. seeing your own child would have a new it would have a new ring to it it would have a really really poignant ring to it you know yeah I think you're right maybe that's the source of the smile and he went he he went over to my teacher

to tell her what was going on and why he had to take me out of school and she got this look on her face and I still didn't know what was going on I just was told to gather my stuff and I was going to be leaving for the day and I left the classroom with my dad my sister was outside we joined her and we walked across the courtyard to where our car was in silence and I was like asking what's going on why am I being picked up not a word and then I joined we got to our car and inside of

the car was my mom and my brother who were like solemn and I think they were already crying and I don't remember who said it but one of them said you know grandpa passed away last night it was very sudden she passed away of a heart attack um and it was just it's like it's edged in my mind because we had this like silver minivan Nissan serena and we're all in this minivan in like the dark parking lot just crying and I think that was the first time I saw then at that point my dad broke down and that was the first time I ever saw my dad cry um and we all just sat in this car crying together over my grandfather

and then that day we were living in the Philippines that day my dad left for the funeral and that was my first experience with loss yeah how about you Penn

what was your first experience with loss well I guess if it's a person my last living grandfather because I didn't know the others died

before either I was born or when I was very young you know i have one like sweet memory where he got me an acoustic string guitar at like i think nine or 10 years old i have this memory of like having a lobster dinner with him or something which is just you know both those things are not things that i would have typically gotten yeah he was like at this point dying mostly unconscious and we all like a huge number of family members were crowded around him as i remember around his bed and he he would have died in the next couple of days i think and he wasn't speaking hardly at all and we're all

you know and i was at this point 15 uh he lived with us when i was i think like 13 14 and so since i'd seen him those days i'd just been auditioning and then i was on i had the first lead role in a tv show this is only significant because the last words he had to ever said that I heard or saw, at least to me, he just sort of gained consciousness for a second, looked around at all of us and, like, didn't know, I think what was going on and then he saw me, and he just kind of went like,

it's really sweet but also crazy exaggerated, like old man comedy wink, he was like, that's so cute. Do-over. And that was the name of the show. It was called Do-Over. And then he just, he died right there. He died.

That was the last thing he was. No, but those were the last words he said to me. And so from that point on, I was like, I'm going to make it if it's the last thing I do. This is my do-over for my pops. Not going to get a do-over on this one, Granddad? Yeah, and that's, you know, the way my mother and her generation spoke about their father, you know, it was a, it was a crazy, like, middle, class Irish Catholic upbringing, they, there was a military family. And so they, uh, they just had nothing but crazy stories. Crazy stories. Like my mom's mother left the family when, when she was

16 without telling them. Whoa. She said she was going to the movies. So that's a loss for you right there. She said she was going to the movies. My mom could tell it. Yeah. She said she was going to the movies and then did not come back. That's really amazing. So your mom is one of six. So she, where is she in the lineup? She's the second oldest and the, in the, well, And Navinah's this story, she, the oldest, too. So my mother's generation experienced a lot of, like, present loss. Yeah. We don't quite have the same.

So my mother is the second oldest in a line of six that was seven. Mm-hmm. A set of twins were the oldest siblings, but when they were five, one of them died. Wow. And so actually the... She drowned. Like she died in a very particularly tragic way. Yeah.

And, you know, the truth is my my mother's family never well it's not fair to say never recovered i'd say that it it certainly left its mark it's certainly left a deep and indelible mark as as of course it would on any family and you know that generation this is back in what the 40s is literally in the 40s can you imagine like i mean what tools do you have alcohol basically so your mom was 16 when her mom when her mother left so she was the second oldest sister and at that point you know she really was the caretaker. Yeah.

And she actually told the story once of, so her youngest brother, his name is Jay, shout out to Uncle Jay. So my Uncle Jay would have been probably, I think, six or something. And one night, my mom was talking him into bed and she's a teenager

at this point, 16 or 17. And because she had hair just like her mom, Jay woke up for a second night and he said, Mom, like Monnie? You know, can you imagine? It's so, so, like, so, has a real poignancy to it. Just, so, so, so my generation, we just know the sort of the, like a, like a one removed.

Yeah. Nava, I know you, you've talked about it on the podcast, you experienced some major loss, loss of your mom. A lot of people were asking, what should other people know? about how they should interact with somebody who has experienced some major loss. Are there things that they definitely shouldn't say in your experience? Are there things that are helpful to say?

And if you could cry, that would be preferable. Yeah, I'll try and don't do my best. I don't know what the like tidy answer is, but I think avail yourself of as many resources as you can and don't deny that it's a loss. Like, whatever your value set is, whether or not you believe in an afterlife, you have physically lost someone who means a lot to you, probably, hopefully. And there's a change in the relationship, and that is a loss.

And that creates pain and grief. And it's okay to, like, feel those feelings. It's not helpful to be ashamed of them, and it's not helpful to bury them. But it can be easy to get stuck in them. So it's really useful to have resources, like, read, books that will help you try to figure out what your belief is on the afterlife or that have sort of like a helpful image of it, talk to grief therapist, talk to your community. One thing that I've shared with friends who've lost a parent or like a sibling or someone really close, which so far has

resonated with, I think almost everyone I've heard from has said that this was true for them, but doesn't mean it's true for everyone, is that often your instinct is to be alone and it's really the wrong instinct. Although there are times that you should be alone and you can grieve in private, I think what's more helpful is to be, is to sort of like what you're missing is a way to express love to someone that you care about deeply. So if you can express that love with other people, I think it helps. So this instinct to isolate and hide, I think is a heart, it doesn't help actually and it maybe prolongs the stages of grief. So that's something that I wish I would have handled a bit differently, much less isolation, I think would have been really helpful. And I didn't

see a grief counselor and I like really wish I would have. I think that would have been very helpful and I don't know why I didn't. Do you think you might? I have seen a therapist since and not for grief but it comes up but I think I'm kind of past the grief. Like there's certain things that if I think about it, I'll cry about it just because I love my mom so much. But I was even the other day I was watching something where someone's dad had died and she was like my dad's not going to walk me down the aisle. and normally I would think about my mom not being at my wedding it would be instant tears and I was like yeah I think if my dad also died before I got married

that would be I mean that would be like unthinkably painful but if one of my parents can be there like I just I feel like my relationship to it all has changed and is a lot lighter but it took a long time to get there but yeah so my advice would be like don't trust your instincts they're not always right don't trust all your instincts all the time they're not always right be with people you love and go see a grief therapist and like move through your grief don't bury it don't hide from it

but try not to get stuck in it. And there isn't like, I don't think there's an appropriate timeline. It's not like two months later. You know, I think that that's different for each person. But I think you can sense if it's going on a little too long or if you've like run away from it.

I think we can sense those things. So that would be the first part. And then the second part was how to interact with someone who's asked. This is a little trickier because people are different. I've only met one person who said she doesn't like this, but I did meet someone who said she doesn't like this. But this one person said she didn't like it when people would ask her about her dad. he died in a really traumatic way

and when people would bring it up it was like very upsetting to her aside from her everyone I know who has lost someone and I felt this way too feels like people don't ask you enough like you don't get to talk about the person who is your favorite person

you don't get to share a memory it's like it's not only that they're dead it's like they disappeared it's as if you deleted the character from the story so you don't have an opportunity to think about the things that brought you so much joy so I feel like asking someone

or sharing your favorite memories of their loved one, I think is often sweet. But if you know the person in the circumstances, maybe like read the room a little bit. But yeah, someone to just like ask you about it and share sweet memories. If it's in the like immediate weeks, like a meal train, no one did that in my case. It would have been really nice. I would have really appreciated that. Just like showing up and being supportive and not being cagey about it. I feel like that's the hardest part is that people are caged around you, and then you have to also calculate,

like, oh, am I making this person uncomfortable? Like, that just shouldn't have to be one of the things that you're dealing with. Yeah, in my opinion. Yeah, I guess it, and if anyone is, like, nervous to ask someone about the person who passed away, an easy thing is to just say, like, are you open to talking about so-and-so?

Could I ask you about so-and-so? Yeah. And then they can let you know. They might be like, yes, absolutely. Yeah. I thought this was really interesting. someone asked, they said they lost someone young. They lost their sister when they were 15 and they have trouble navigating new relationships.

Like, do I, when do I open up about this loss? Do I, it feels a little bit too late if we've already become really close friends. And then it also can feel too early because it kind of stunts the, may stunt the conversation because someone does know how to react when you tell them about a really sad loss. I don't know, I don't have any answers for that But she was wondering like how do you navigate that If you've if you've lost someone and someone asks I have had this experience on the other side

Where I've asked someone like how many siblings do you have Yeah Or like what I just asked you Penn Like where is your mom in the lineup And then you end up having to either lie Not lie but like not talk about this person As if you're deleted character You have to make a choice of some kind

Yeah Yeah so it's tricky You can take my approach which in the first few years just post about it online all the time and then everyone knows and they ask you about it

that was my what my approach will be if David Cheats on me remember I just tell everyone I did post about it a lot and I posted about it a lot very consciously

because I had the feeling that I wasn't supposed to like that people don't like you to or like a year later why are you still posting about this actually I heard someone say that about a woman who had lost her daughter her daughter had drowned

in her own backyard at a party at a birthday party everyone was in the backyard but no one saw the kid get in the pool. Anyway, she had posted something about it a year later. And someone was like, I mean, she just needs to let it go. And I was so infuriated when she said that.

And it truly motivated me to post a lot more often. Yeah. I was like, if that's what you think, I'm going to do this 10 times more often than I think is normal. Because I think that's insane for you to police when someone is allowed to remember their dead child. Yeah. But in any event, also I think we need to like.

Also a year for a dead child. That's normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is normal. But for that question. I mean, again, it depends on you, but I think, like, you can, if the question comes up,

like, if someone's like, tell me about your siblings, I think that's a natural moment to talk about it. Or if you find, like, you want to talk about it, but you don't know how. You can just ask the other person a question that will naturally come back to you. Like, have you ever lost someone you love or how do you deal with grief or how many siblings? Like, there's a way to, like, bring it up. I feel like I bring it up pretty early on because people ask you about your parents pretty early on. Like, or if they say, do you have any family important? Puerto Rico. I'm like, oh, I'm here with my dad. Then I don't want them to think my parents

are divorced. So I just always end up saying my mom passed away several years ago. So it comes up pretty early. Yeah. And we'll be right back. All right. So let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want to get sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting

the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and i'm telling you um even before us i've done ads for these guys it was a product that i uh i really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that i use i use I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious,

like really, really good. Comes out in a packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it, I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health, and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8,

which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. all three of these things taste incredible honestly you don't even need to mix it with water and yeah I just couldn't recommend them highly enough if you want to try them out go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping

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Like, I saw an illustration on Instagram after my mom passed away that I thought was a really helpful way of explaining it. And it was this young artist, she had drawn a red button in like, sort of like the those buttons that you put. Like a buzzer. Like a buzzer, yeah, to activate something. She had drawn that kind of a button. And a person in a small box and they just keep bumping into that button.

And she was basically saying that was like the grief trigger. Like in the immediate months or weeks, for some people maybe years after you lose someone, that box is really small. So you're just always bumping into that like that grief button. But as you sort of as time goes on, the grief button never goes away and it doesn't get smaller. But the box that you're in gets larger. So you just don't bump into it as often. and to me that is what grief feels like like some days the strangest thing

will trigger that button like the strangest thing will make me lose it crying over my mom and it's not something that I would have anticipated and then other times something that like someone's saying that comment about the wedding which I would think would trigger me I'm like I'm fine but just to know that like it's always there but that box gets bigger over time

and to give yourself the grace of like it will take time but I do think that although there's a real loss and a real separation. On the other hand, I think the relationship is still real. And we have a way to cultivate relationships with people who've passed away. And from my perspective, it's like it's talking to them, it's asking them questions, sort of listening, thinking about how they would have guided you. And it's also praying. And to be able to think about it as like,

okay, there was a loss, but now there's like a new kind of relationship is really freeing. And then to learn how to nurture that relationship and you'll get better at it over time. So that you can still, like, grow the love, I think is really helpful. And then it's not like an annihilation, but it's just a new kind of relationship that takes time to understand and to nurture. That's a really beautiful, like, is it beautiful the word? Helpful metaphor, I feel like as someone who hasn't experienced that kind of loss, I can picture that.

I can, like, I can conceptualize of that. That's helpful. I can tell a sweet story. It's not exactly related, but I don't think I've told this story yet. but I had shared it with someone recently. So my mom loved jewelry, avid jewelry collector, whatever her stage of wealth was, which was never like so great. But even when she had little money, she would like save her money, squirrel it away to buy jewelry.

And so for every anniversary, every birthday, Valentine's Day, my dad would always buy her jewelry, a jewelry set. So anyway, jewelry was like her most prize possession. And she was really clear on how my sister and I would divide her jewelry when she died. And basically, this becomes relevant in a point. growing up I only exclusively wore silver. I hated yellow gold. And my mom, I mean, I hate it, but I just refused to wear it. And my sister loved yellow gold and my mom mostly had yellow gold jewelry.

And she started to collect little pieces of white gold jewelry so that she would have something to give me when she died, which is so thoughtful. But in the last like five years of her life where she hadn't revised her will, she kind of flipped and ended up liking white gold jewelry more. And my dad had more money. So she ended up buying just like a few pieces of white gold jewelry that were much more valuable than any of the yellow gold. pieces. So anyway, in her will, it had stipulated that I would get all the white gold. My sister would get all the yellow gold. So, and it hadn't been updated. So when my mom died, my sister and I split her jewelry. And there were like a few pieces that were ambiguous, like how they, how they would fall. But we didn't fight at all. And my sister and I historically fought a lot growing up and

would fight over like presents, who got the better present, who gets the cooler phone. So this was like a moment where we could have fought. And I think a lot of people do fight over financial things. But we just both handled it really graciously and it was sort of like if you want it, you can have it. And I think we both tried to be really like aware of the other person. But I did end up with all the high value pieces. But I didn't fight for them. My sister was just like, I don't wear white gold. So like you can have it. So my mom died in the last day of July. She died July 31st. One day in October, the year after she died, so a few months later, I had a dream that my sister and I were in the room that we were in when we were splitting her

that we were splitting her jewelry and my mom was sitting on the bed watching and she was smiling like she was really happy with how it was going but when we finished she came up to me and she said like very jokingly and playfully but she was like navva you got away with all the nice pieces you're not going to give one of those to your sister and I was like oh mommy and I just like slapped around the shoulder and I hugged her and I was like no I'm just like kept them no which is like more this what happened right and so she was like teasing me but it was like it was like it was like she wasn't punishing me at all but it was like oh you like pull the fast one on your sister you got all those makes pieces. So then anyway, so I woke up, I thought it was so sweet. So I called my sister.

And I was like, Jenna, last night I had this dream. And I told her the dream and I told her the whole thing about even the part of like me pulling a fast one on her. And my sister was like, I had a dream last night too that we were splitting the jewelry. Mommy was in the room on the bed watching. She basically had the same dream. But at the end of the dream, she came up to me and she hugged me and she said, Jenna, I'm so proud of you. You were so selfless in this process. And it was like on the same. And we were like, oh, that was a visit. Like my mom visit. And it was like she was there these were her most prized possessions like she was with us when we split it laughing at me proud of my sister you know it was like so sweet and i feel like things like

that hold on to them because it's real like it's real they they still exist they're with us they visit us they let us know we should have to be like attentive to it on a related note we had a jewelry company uh give nava and i some jewelry and they gave us like a a certain amount of money we got to choose our pieces and Nav and I were chatting like which one does you choose which one do you choose? And I was like oh I got these ones but I'm going to give these ones to my sister and Nava went oh really? He said yeah you know I don't really need them and and she's like whoa that's really generous of you and then because of her reaction I never gave it to my sister I'm sorry Siri I was like she's right I love that that's funny I don't need to be that generous

Bad selfish influence. It's just so funny. It's a similar situation. Somebody asked, how have you mourned past romantic relationships? This one, I like this one because it opens up just the notion of loss. Because it's, you know, you don't just lose romantic relationships. You can, you know, you can lose people to mental illness.

And there, you know, there's a lot of people. There's a lot of people who do. You know, you can lose a parent to. dementia long before they die that kind of stuff um you know there's a lot of ways is you can lose people uh and but i like let's start we got some stories for that but but let's first start with romantic oh not me no idea i can start i have an experience with um mourning a past romantic relationship that i could share my family generally growing up called me the turn Terminator in terms of relationships. They said when I made a decision that it was over,

it was over and I moved on and I didn't look back. And that was typically my experience. But there was one relationship that took me a very long time to move past. And part of it I came to realize was that I felt like there was so much that I didn't express. Like I experienced a lot of hurt and I didn't really express that and I felt upset about that. I felt like it was unfair and can I just ask a question about that? You don't have to give more details than you feel comfortable but was it hurt that it ended or hurt with behavior that it happened that you never called the person out for? Hurt with behavior that had happened that I never called them out for because I was young.

I was 23 when I got married so all of my serious relationships before David were when I was really young. Yeah. So anyway, I kept feeling like I want to tell this person. how they hurt me. I want to have a conversation with them and just like let them know it's not okay because I felt,

I got the sense that they were just happy, easygoing, didn't think about it for a second. And that felt unfair to me. And I sought therapy because I was like, it's just, it's on my heart too much. And the therapist did this really interesting technique that I was very, skeptical of but it was so effective she said okay get a chair and like an extra chair that's

empty and sit in a chair facing the other one and this is gestalt oh okay yeah maybe this is called i think maybe no i know i don't know the name but she had me she led me through like a guided meditation to kind of like tap into his energy and what she had me do was play him like have a conversation with him. You stood up and sat down on the chair and then played, yeah. Yeah, I stood up, I like would say something myself to him. And then I would get up, switch seats, and respond as him. And I thought it was so ridiculous. And I thought also like, none of this is going to be new information. I'm going to say the things that I've like been saying in my head for years now. But no, that wasn't the case. I so much more of what I was feeling and why I was

feeling it actually came up for me. Wow. And when I was like playing his part, I actually, I, he probably would say something completely different, but it was like enough for me. It's satisfied by like curiosity and helped me move past it. Anyway, it sounds very like woo-woo, but if you're, that's cool, that's powerful. This has been studied and documented for decades now. This is, I think this is called Gistalt.

It's at least role playing. I mean, this is like, this is well, well, tested and it is amazing it's it's it's an amazing testament to the human mind that we that's like we can we can we can all basically all people can tap into this that way no it's incredible and I just if you the person who asked this or anyone else if you're going through if you're trying to mourn a relationship yeah I think it's a helpful tactic I have just like two quick thoughts so I'll go next uh these are both from Matthew Hussie you will have heard his episode by now you know that I'm a fan but this really really helped me let go of a situation they were like

two things he said one is that the love of your life the great love of your life is not with another person so if someone breaks up with you if they cheat on you if they choose another person that is not the great love of your life even if you felt great love with them but like the great love of your life is like someone that you both you choose each other you commit to each other and you work on that relationship and you can restart at any age you can restart at 50 restart at 70 at 30 right so I think that that's like liberating because sometimes you feel like I lost the great love of my life like that's so painful if you lose a love one in an or something that's a different situation but but in terms of someone leaving you or a relationship

ending against your desire i think that's really helpful and then the other thing that he said that was super helpful to me is like sometimes we feel like i'll never meet another person like this again and that's true every person is one of one so whoever you were with you will never meet someone like them again yeah people are not replaceable but feelings are replaceable you are capable of feeling great attraction great love great chemistry great connection with with a number of people not a huge number of people, but with a number of people, not just one person. So don't tell yourself the narrative that like I'll never feel this way again

because I'm never going to meet someone like them again. But you can acknowledge that there's a loss. It's true. I'm never going to meet someone like this person again, but I will feel these feelings again. Like I'm capable of feeling these emotions again. And that was so helpful to me. Like truly just thinking about that and accepting that that was true

helped me let go of a situation that I had just like held on like I'm never going to meet someone like him again. That's when. And the other is I used to think that like if you hid yourself from someone and they rejected you, that was better because you could tell yourself like, well, he wouldn't have rejected me if he'd known the real me. So it was sort of like a defense mechanism to like not be fully vulnerable or expressive. But I recently had like an epiphany like you should show someone like all of you because actually you want someone to reject the real you. Like you don't want to leave the situation because then you know that you're not right for each other.

if someone knows exactly what they're getting and they feel like that's not right for them that's okay you don't have to make it so personal actually you're at the end of the day you're just trying to find your your most compatible match so to like depersonalize it a little bit even though it's something that feels so personal and yeah there was someone that i like i felt like i showed this person everything and i hadn't done that before and he made a different choice and my reaction is seeming like i'm not okay with it but i'm actually really okay with it like i'm like oh i don't have a lingering doubt because i showed this person everything and he felt like it wasn't right for him at this point in his life. So it's like, okay, I can totally accept that. Like, you knew what you were getting and it wasn't right for you. And that doesn't say anything about me. And that, to me, has actually been a lot, like, it's been a lot easier to move forward. I mean, for me, I have much more, like, living losses. You know, I think of family, friends, past relationships.

So, an example, or, I mean, earlier I mentioned mental illness. That's something that's impacted both my, I mean, both my, my parents' sides of family, like, that's, there's aspects of that and addiction, which just mean that there's a lot to what I call like living loss. You know, it's like you can lose people to that stuff. And that is very painful in its own way. It's a very, you know, it's having to, you know, even coming to realize that you need, to grieve someone while they're alive and you don't you know it can take a long time to even

realize that like oh i've i've not had this person for a very long time that's a that's an extremely difficult uh kind of loss because of how you're you've been coping with it for so long you don't even register it as a loss and i think of um i actually think of my first girlfriend my first relationship we were together for I think about four years, which is very long, you know, as a teenager, basically from 15 to 19. Yeah, that is really long time. Yeah, that is really long. And, you know, as you two are aware, I don't know if you remember the sort of specificity of the date, but her name was Kelsey and she died on, like, when we first started recording episodes of Pod Crush back in 2021.

And it marked something for me because we were together at a, very formative and vulnerable period of time in our lives both of us we were we were actually 14 when we met so we may have been together i mean we you know yeah so i was 19 when we broke up and um she was a person who she had she did have a lot of abuse in her childhood like a lot uh the sort that i remember thinking like this is this is like a lifetime movie and her relationship with her mother and her mother actually died when she was in when my ex-girlfriend was in her 20s and you know the consensus at that point

for anybody who knew her was like well that's very hard but surely there's a lot of you know freedom now and relief because this this was an exceedingly difficult and mentally ill person you know a lot of alcoholism and stuff and but yeah so this woman Kelsey my first girlfriend

And she died at 32 of the effects of alcoholism, which is, you know, that is significant. That's a, to die at that age from the effects of alcoholism and not from one incident, not from, say, an overdose, right? Not from one event of alcohol poisoning. It's more like that is the deleterious effects of a very, very longstanding condition. And that condition really began when we were together. It probably predated when we were together. You know, I mean, we both were the average 14-year-old in Hollywood,

like we had access to alcohol. And then I know that at least in the first year or so we were together, she did end up in the hospital once for alcohol poisoning. Wow. And, you know, so our relationship was characterized by actually, like, loss of innocence that she had, which predated, you know, me ever even knowing her. long predated um uh and i and i had similar things where that you know i wasn't aware of it at the time

but there was there was there was an incredible actually to be honest just like burdened feeling to our to our relationship and it um it it you know the way that i reflect on it now is that there there was there was some loss of youth that was that was had together a real loss of youth you know like a relationship for 14 15 16 year olds you know would ideally not be characterized by these things you know but but it but it did have that and it was always burdened and I of course wasn't super conscious of these things now when she died just a few years ago it's a it's a you know you could objectively say it's tragic on its surface so young you know it in her body basically just started to fall apart you know um

that was an interesting period for me because i think it made me you know you know i don't i don't think i i think i may have shed some tears that first night when i said some prayers for her and kind of appeared her presence was really closer than it had ever like there was something in her that I saw and felt after she died that I had never felt when when we were together and when she was alive and you know whatever that is whatever that says about my perception I don't know but yeah there's there's just there's something to me I don't have enough perspective on it yet like i really don't overall uh but i know i know that she as a person lived through losses you know that to me uh like she didn't know who her father was until like only a few years before

she died actually she she gained her a father and had lost him her whole life you know that's so i so it's been my experience between myself and like others that i've known as far more What comes to mind when I think of losses, living losses like that, which can feel just excruciating because you live through them. They don't like happen and then you reflect. Well, and probably, I mean, you, if you are still seeing that person, but the loss that you're feeling is that they're not the person that you hope they would be or, you know, they're not the figure that you need them to be,

you're still seeing them and you're coming up against that loss. It's like that metaphor. Like the box is still pretty close, pretty small because you're reminded constantly there and not actually the person that you need. That's so true. And you know what? It was hard for me to say.

I did not see her much at all after we were in a relationship because I actually felt that living loss with her in a way. Her conditions seemed to me so extreme that it was hard for me to, to really think about or talk about her without feeling this extreme burden and you know it's a strange way to reflect on it but in a sense when she died i at least felt there was a certain kind of relief when she died which is such a strange thing to say and i hope it i hope it comes across and what i'm saying and not because she died but because it was like well that is that is what i am

probably, you know, many people close to her feared. And there was nothing ultimately anybody could do. I think I started to reflect on my early years, and it was right as we started this podcast, incidentally, I mean, literally right as we were starting it. It was like the same week that we recorded our first interview, from what I recall. And, I mean, I remember just thinking like,

this helps me frame in a new light these formative years. It's why I can't tell a single damn light story. Sorry. No, this is the right episode for your energy pen. But you're not allowed to tell any more dark stories in another episode. Zip it up. Zip it up like always used to have to. Great, okay.

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Um, okay, sorry, there's something. I just saw another question. Um, it does, you know, it gets lighter over time. It's not a guarantee, though. I do think you have to sort of put some kind of work in. Like, I mean, time does, does assuage things it can. But, but like we were saying, like therapy, reading books, talking to people, like, because if not, you can get stuck in, it's amazing how long we can get stuck in feelings.

Some people really don't process things in it. Yeah, or they turn to sort of darker paths. so there are certainly like instruments that we can avail ourselves of to help but I do want to just say I mean I have talked about my mom's death a lot and it's been it'll be 10 years in July and I could not have imagined in the first two years how I would feel now I'm never going to say there are people who will say it and maybe I'm supposed to say it because I'm a religious person I'm never going to say like I feel like it was a gift that she died I don't feel that it was a gift that she died I feel that it was a loss for our family it was a gift to her relief from this world, whatever, I don't feel like it was a gift to our family. But I now feel like it's not heavy. Like I feel that it's light. Like I just feel like we have a good relationship. I feel her presence. I don't like miss her all the time. I'm not like aching for her all the time. I feel like I can call on her. And sometimes I feel like I understand what she's trying to communicate to me. And all of that has taken time. It wasn't immediate. But it's just like,

it's just I don't feel a heaviness around it. I do have a tremendous fear of my death. dying, so I'm sure that that's like, I've, I have turned the thing that I felt about my mom trying to put all of that fear and anxiety towards my relationship with my dad, which is a really beautiful relationship, but I do cry often about my dad. The thought of my dad dying, like really just gets to me. So it doesn't go away, these things like transmute and shift, but it for sure, it will get better. You will not always wake up feeling like you're having a heart attack. It does get better if we can take sort of steps to heal. what about it was interesting sophia and i was really glad you shared because i think that was really

vulnerable to share like even in your marriage and you have a strong marriage you still kind of mourned this other relationship so was it the therapy like what was the thing it seems like you might be in a new place with that sort of what helped you yeah yeah it was definitely the therapy also talking about it all the time talking you know not all the time but like not being afraid to talk about it with david to talk about it with my friends with my with my parents my sister um was it tough for david well i just i also want to be i want to clarify it wasn't enjoyable for david but it also wasn't hard because it wasn't there was no feeling like i should be with this person or or what it what if could it have been no like it was really

mourning like me not standing up for myself feeling like i didn't stand up for myself i let things happened that I wish I hadn't and I didn't feel like there was like kind of like an accountability in the end and it wasn't anybody's fault actually I feel like I or it wasn't his fault necessarily I also like didn't call for that and that's what I was really like struggling with but I yeah it wasn't it wasn't enjoyable for David yeah that's natural yeah yeah yeah but I think and David is obsessed with you so I'm just teasing David. I'm sure he is obsessed with you, but, yeah.

No, no. But I do think it's true that just because you're in a very happy marriage doesn't mean that you're, you completely forget all the things that happen to you, all the relationships that you had before. Yeah. Yeah. Penn, you're still figuring that out how to make grief lighter or do you have any thoughts? Well, you, you know, I mean, you might not want to get into this,

but Penn is one of the most, I don't know if one of the most, But among my friends, he, like, knows about particular kinds of therapy. And he can tell you, like, I think that if you did cognitive behavioral therapy, it'd help you with this. But if you did, like, family systems therapy, it would just been coming to appreciate sort of your kind of understanding of these different things and the different kinds of therapy that help for different things. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, yeah. I don't really love just, like, straight ahead talk therapy. I think it really can only get you so far.

what you need is a is a you need to understand at least as much as you can sure but then there comes a point where it's just diminishing returns you know you can't first of all understand everything and then and then once you've owned turned most of the stones like that actually doesn't do the work of like say grief grief in particular i think like grief is not merely to be understood and so yeah i think it is about it is an interesting question which I'm working through, and that's why I know so much about therapies right now. And I think that I myself have turned a corner recently

and feel like I don't want to do any kind of therapy for a very long time. And that's, I think, the right place to be in. And so I have a lightness now that I think had left me for a couple of years. that may not actually track in your experience. No, I was thinking... No, I was thinking in Penn and I were in Scotland together recently working on a project. And I was thinking that you felt a lot lighter.

No. And like more playful, silly. It was really nice. Yeah. Yeah. And I just know that I've transcended... I thought I was trying to figure out a problem in a certain kind of way.

Like without being... I thought I was trying to figure out a problem that had... like an answer and and been spending some concerted time working on that both your therapy modes a lot of prayer and meditation um uh at least a lot considering the amount of time i have with kids and work and stuff so like you know really finding the time being being conscious and conscious about getting that time I mean, and make it, you know, going into meditation sessions like with a purpose. And there is something that has happened recently where I just don't feel like I'm at all trying to,

like I thought I was trying to figure out a problem. That's not at all what I needed or what I was trying to do. It's just, it moves beyond something like this binary of right or wrong or yes or no or black and white. And it just moves into this different place of like, yeah, I don't know. it's it's acceptance it's you know i can tell the details of this particular thing in time might be valuable to share and probably in a long time and then i'll have more perspective but for the time being i i think or i know if my experience says anything it's that what we often think we're trying to like work through or figure out is not intellectually what it's not what you need

emotionally like what your mind thinks it's trying to work on is not necessarily what your heart needs and and it's really satisfying when you realize suddenly oh i'm just not thinking about that the way that i used to i'm just not concerned about that the way that i that i was no season nine Yeah, that's positive. I'll try to keep this brief, but one listener wants to hear more about continuing a relationship with my mom, specifically to me.

Did your mom send that? My mom. I talked about this a lot in the Andy Grammar episode, and I won't get into it in that level of detail, but I think there were like two pivotal things. One is that my mom made an effort to reach out to me. You'll have to listen to the episode for that to make sense, but she really did.

And she reached like multiple people with the same message, which was like, she's holding on too tight. Like, she needs to let go of the grief. It's been, it's enough. Like, it had been a year and a half. The time for grieving has passed, and now it's a time for a lighter chapter in our relationship. And she's not asking me enough questions.

And that had sort of come up. That message had come up. You're not asking your mom enough questions. My mom was saying that I wasn't asking her enough questions, which implied that there were answers that she wanted to give me. And then, yeah. So that was one was like, just like a deliberate outreach for my mom. I understand that not everybody gets that. I got it somehow.

But, and then the other was, and I also got into it in the episode in more detail. For me, like, I've always. been, I've always had a strong spiritual practice and I've always really, to me, a relationship with God has always been important. And especially in my early 20s, like very important. And when my mom died, I had a lot of like anger because it happened really suddenly and I didn't feel prepared, but I couldn't look at the fact that I had anger because I felt very ashamed of that. And I think I was also in heavy grief because my relationship with God was different on my end. And I didn't want to like invite him in. Whereas like all of my 20s was about cultivating a relationship

with God, like very deliberately. And so, and I, you know, my mom died on sort of on the E, right when I turned 30. And so it was like entering a decade with a totally different perspective on life, God, that relationship. And there was just like a moment in my living room where I was praying and I acknowledged it. Like I said, like, I don't know if I have the right to say this, but I forgive you to God. And I was like, this is an absurd thing for me to say. Like, who am I?

But I really felt like I needed to say it. And as soon as I said it, I just felt this like evaporate. of like a heavy stone and um and i felt sort of communicated back to me was like after i said it i cried and i was like i don't think i had the right to say that but like that's how i feel and then i i heard back like it's okay like he understands why you felt that way and he's never been upset about it like it's fine like it's not even a thing and that just feeling the relief of like it was okay that i felt that way too it just like dissolves something and and and the relationship has been great since then like i haven't felt anger and and and

after that happened, I realized, oh, like, all of this grief was also tied up in, like, the loss of a relationship with God. Like, the relationship wasn't gone, but it was different on my end, and it was sort of blocked. And I needed to, like, for that to dissolve, too, I think to connect with my mom, to connect with my soul, my spirit. So, so sort of, like, I think being vulnerable, like, being really honest about what we're feeling, like, really acknowledging the things that we're feeling and, like, it's okay. Like, we have to be honest with ourselves. We have to remove the veils between our minds and our hearts and our spirits and like whatever we're feeling name it accept it process it um yeah and that really that will help you like move move on so to me to just be

able to be like hey i'm kind of ashamed of this but i'm feeling mad and i need to forgive you whether or not i have the right to like that was an important moment that took me a long time to get to so that was really important and then yeah just like praying praying for my mom i like sometimes welcome her i'll be like mom like if there's anything you want to communicate i'm here i'm listening I don't do that often, but like when I'm in a particular mood, I do that. And then sometimes something will come through looking at pictures of her, like not shying away from that. Those are some of the ways. I'm sure there are more ways that I could.

Yeah, that's so important. Actually, that was also part of my experience with moving on from what happened in this relationship was realizing I felt made a fool of and just like allowing myself to admit that. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that's huge. Yeah. There's a final question that I think is interesting. It's kind of on a different track, but it asks us, how do you feel about the loss of physical beauty as you age?

And I'm curious to hear thoughts on that. I'm not experiencing that yet. So stupid. You've got plenty of edits. The edits will keep me alive. Immortalize my best years. Oh, this is a tricky one. well okay i'll go first because it's unexpected um maybe uh i have i mean you know any man has

has a different relationship to beauty from a woman like in any given case we don't have the same degree of expectation and burden on us and socialization and all that stuff. However, in my position, you know, I don't know what percentage it is, but it's a lion's share of my work and everything that I'm known for. It has to do with physicality and my appearance. And so, therefore, it's an aspect I, of course, am aware of. And, you know, I'm 37. and there's things I'm noticing now I'm like oh yeah it's you know like it does not kill me at all it does not bother me that much but there's certain things I've noticed where I'm like yeah that's never going to go the other way now it's definitely only going to continue like certain parts in my

face certain parts in my body I'm just like yeah that's that's changed it's always been changing but it's changed it's not it's never I'm never going to feel that way I used to feel And there is something there that, you know, I do not have enough perspective on it beyond that, but I just wanted to at least offer that it is something that I have thought about. Because it is a loss. You really do think like, damn, that's not coming back. Yeah. It sounds like the way you described it, though, that it's very light the way you think about it.

Like, huh. Of course. Like noticing. Yeah. Is that? Is that true? Yes. I think at my worst, there's certain, I'm not old enough yet where it's, you know, more marked. Yeah. And being male, I have that benefit of it's like I'm far more allowed and expected to age, as they say, like a fine wine, you know?

And so no, I'm not. I look forward to. do it. I feel like I'm going to gain so many more invisible things that matter, which I'm in need of, you know, wish we could all feel that way more universally, obviously. Well, I feel like the question in itself betrays, like, I don't know if betrays, but it's sort of it's just indicative of like the idea that as you get older you lose beauty you lose youth but it's not it's actually not a modern idea because i like to often be like social media it exacerbates things but actually if you go back to like shakespeare's poetry like so many of his

sonnets were on like the loss of beauty like holding out to you and they aged hard then yeah so it's like been a human compulsions from a long time as far as we can tell but i think it's like we got to grow up and we have to like just leave that in the past it's very childish and it's very immature and it would just be so much more liberating if we were all allowed to age yeah and I was I was thinking recently because living in LA I mean you do see a lot and I really am not saying this with any criticism I'm not even necessarily close to the idea of doing it myself one day but you see like so many people do like Botox fillers like everything to prevent aging and I was thinking recently like these women that I see online and they're like 50 60s like no lines like

I want to see lines. Like, actually, I've been feeling like I miss the look of women aging. Like, they used to be allowed to age. And now, like, the forehead has to be completely smooth. Like, I have this little ridge here. I'm like, oh, am I supposed to feel like really self-conscious about this? But anyway, so I feel like it's you don't lose beauty as you get older, but you do lose youth and your beauty changes. And I just wish that we could accept that.

Like, I think about my dad, he's 80. I think my dad is so handsome. And I know other people think he's really handsome. Women are always hitting on him. It's like he's 80, but his youth, his youthful spirit, his energy, and he has great hair, I will say. He didn't lose his hair, so that helps. But it's like, yeah, you can, at any age, you can be beautiful, you can be attractive. Like, we just have to let people age.

Yeah. That's true. That's very true. Yeah. Yeah. I feel similarly. I'm, like, nervous about this time in history where, like, very few. No, we're very few people are going to age without like assistance, you know, and then and then it just like resistance.

Yeah. And then it and then it creates, it's more jarring when you see somebody who hasn't had any work done. Yeah. So that that does, that worries me a little bit just for our own like perception, like our own perception of what a 30 year old face looks like, what a 40 year old face looks like. what a 40-year-old face looks like. I think we've like lost perspective. Totally. And do I, how do I feel about loss of beauty? I mean, yeah, I struggle with it a lot.

Like, I think I don't struggle with it until I see an old picture. And then I'm like, damn, damn. Like, I thought I always looked like this, you know, until I see a picture from like even two years ago. Like right now I feel like I'm in a period of life where it's like rapidly, I'm like rapidly changing. My face is rapidly changing. my body I'm like getting way less sleep than I ever have you know there's like so many factors

to it and then but the the things that are causing that are wonderful beautiful things I have a child um I am growing older I have more experience in life I there's like it's not the tradeoff is is so good yeah but it definitely that tradeoff sorry right sorry you go go ahead go ahead I was just going to cap it and just say like it is definitely something that you're is on my mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think that tradeoff, as we've been saying, we have to be, what were the words you used? Do you remember? It was like the tradeoff between, so many things you're looking forward to. Or so many. She has whizs and she has a baby.

Like there's really beautiful reasons why. Yeah. Well, yeah, we should just, we should all be, we should all recognize that it is a tradeoff and that it actually, it really can be, and should be and often will be if we see it that way and let it, it's a positive trade-off.

You can actually get things. You know, I know for me, age has just been such a gift, like so much more lightness, so much, you know. And I know not everybody's living my life, but when we think of youth, I mean, I am undeniably out of that phase and I don't have those things anymore.

You know, I just don't. Something I may think about a lot recent, and I've actually been praying for it. It's the first time in my life that I can remember phrasing a prayer in this way, but I've been really thinking about like, how do you like meet the moment that you're in? So I've been asking God to help me just like,

how can I just like meet this moment professionally? How can I meet this moment in my romantic life? How can I meet this moment with my family? What is my family? How can I meet this moment in my community? And like, what are the fruits that are already here that I can like pick? And what are the seeds that I'm supposed to plant?

And what are the plants that are growing that like need a little bit of nurturing? And I've really been thinking that And I kind of feel that way with like aging Like I do think about it I feel like I think about it more I could be wrong But I feel like I think about it more than I would

If I were in a relationship But I feel like not being in a relationship There's a thing of like Oh people don't want women after a certain age So am I just like barreling towards a point Where like no one's gonna like desire me But I feel like if it If I didn't have that

I think I'd be more comfortable with aging But I'm trying to be comfortable with it anyway sort of regardless, and I know that I need a little extra help. So I feel like these prayers are helpful, too, to really, instead of think about, like, I'm this old or da-da-da-da-da, what have I not accomplished? Just like, how do I become ready to, like, be who I'm supposed to be in this moment? And, like, oh, and that's every day is an unfolding moment. But, like, how can we seize that?

And I was thinking about even the way we dress, like, sometimes it's hard to tell, like, everyone's dressing the same, like, is it, can you just, like, change your style a little bit as you get older? Could it be, like, a little more? For me, I mean, like, maybe you might, like, maybe it could be, a little more elegant. Maybe these dresses don't have to be quite as short. Like maybe I can just accept that I'm like, you know, I liked that my mom dressed differently than me when I was 20. But I dress like every 20 year old, you know. Anyway, just have I been

like pondering. Nava's exiting her hoe era. Yeah. Finally. My line. There's a loss. My long ho era. There's a loss to the pod crush community. We're sorry for your loss. The headlines are getting longer. Oh, my God. I love that. Nava. the moment, meeting the moment. I think that's so true. I mean, so, not so true. It's something that I want to do too.

It made me think about this quote from Schitt's Creek. Have you guys watched? Love Schitt's Creek. Okay. Moira Rose, the mom, she says at one point, she's saying to take naked pictures of yourself when you're young, but the point of it is she's like, one day, she's like, I know you look at yourself and you think you're spooky.

like one day you will look on yourself with much kinder eyes and you'll wish that you took the naked photos it's not about I'm not for me it's not about naked photos but just about how you you will always like if you're trying to live in the future or live in the past then you're always going to be like it's always going to bring some degree of unhappiness true well I feel like we can't end on a better note than nudes I don't take news just FYI just FYI

But you should. But you should. According to Moira Rose. Yeah. Well, we're going to have to, I'm trying to think of a dumb lost joke. I don't have one. Get lost. That's not even a joke.

Get lost, crushies. But it is dumb. Thank you for playing. Good afternoon. Good evening. And good night. We'll see you next time. and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency.

Special thanks to the folks at Lamanada. And as always, you can listen to Pod Crush ad-free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.