Podcrushed - Host AMA: Spirituality

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

In this special host AMA, we're diving deep into the mystical world of spirituality. Join us as we get personal and discuss our own spiritual journeys, all sparked by your questions and comments. We'll talk about transcendental experiences, faith, near-death encounters, and much more. Sophie shares a poignant story of feeling her late grandfather’s presence, Penn recounts an unexpected moment of peace among chaos, and Nava reveals a life-saving divine intervention.    Our new book Crushmore is out now! Go go go! https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993      🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter   ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava   TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Welcome to pot crushed Oh, you better strap in for this one strap in with your invisible seatbelts We're going on an invisible journey That's true It's all stuff you can't see You can't touch

Yeah, we're going to be talking about At your request, maybe not you The literal listener who's listening but our metaphorical audience the people who comment the people who comment and ask things have asked us a lot about our faith that all three of us are Baha'is or you know there's there's people just talking about spiritual concepts so we were we're going to do a whole episode on that and hello

oh did we lose all of you are you still I thought can actually cut out for a second let's start with mystical experiences This is something that people have asked this about. Just think for a moment, what does that word mean to you? Mysticism, mystical. I once heard, I think Christopher Hitchens, you know, a renowned atheist and now dead, so he knows the answer one way or another. He actually now knows the answer, and I think he would like that joke.

He once said the problem with mysticism is that it begins with is and ends with a schism I think like a schism maybe I didn't quite get that part I'm not I'm not smart enough How does it begin with is It begins with miss No missed

Oh I thought you said Mist I muttered It begins with mist Like things aren't clear Evidently like what I'm saying Yeah Yeah so you know Here's what we're going to do

We're going to talk about About what you might call spirituality Dare I say sometimes religion Lost everybody But we're going to constantly be appealing to our cynical, so-called rational mind? Because, you know, the truth is, it's not a rational conclusion that there is no purpose to life and that there is no God. It's just a philosophical assumption with the current scientific community is actually losing its unanimity on. Some of the

leading physicists are really interested in why we cannot explain what is called the hard problem of consciousness. This is something that everybody should think about at some point in time. You always do. Why are we here? What are we doing? We're just going to go to an ad break and be right back and tell the answer. No? No, we've lost our advertisers as well. Because we're just going to jump right in. Because we're going to try to please everybody and offend everybody at the same time. Let's talk about collagen. It's the body's most abundant protein supporting glowing skin, stronger nails, healthy hair, joints, even gut health. But as we age, our natural collagen levels decline, which I'm starting to realize myself. And that's where pretty tasty tea comes in. Each refreshing

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That is a teeny tiny sneak peek of the Japanese that I've been learning. I am getting ready for a trip to Japan. And in addition to seeing the sights and gorging myself on the incredible food, I really want to immerse myself as much as possible. And I feel like knowing some basic Japanese is really going to unlock an experience that I wouldn't otherwise have. Rosetta Stone is making me feel really confident that I could have authentic conversations with locals, which will unlock a really unique experience in Japan. The great thing about Rosetta Stone is that there are no English translations, so you truly learn to speak, listen, and think in your chosen language. Start with words, build to phrases, and progress to full sentences. And their program is designed for long-term

retention. So what you learn actually sticks with you. Don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. Podcrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash podcrush to get started and claim you're 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. Sophie, have you ever had a mystical experience? I have actually.

And, you know, not so long ago I made the decision to just really lean in to mystical experiences because like you said what does that mean well to just accept them i think it's easy for me to try to explain them away to try to doubt them and like poke holes in them like think of all the reasons why i could have had that thought or that experience that are not spiritual that are not mystical yeah um but i just made a decision to lean in and so it happened it's been happening to me frequently one of the times it happened to me i was working late one night and I was in the other room and it was like 2 a.m. finally

decided to go to bed, join my husband. I got all ready for bed and I realized I forgot something in the other room. An important fact here for you to know, important for you and embarrassing for me is that I sleep topless. And so I was all ready for bed, which means...

So you got ready, which is to say you just stripped down. I've got to get ready for bed. I'm wearing too many... Ugh. What is this? Yeah. Pajamas don't know her. No, just where's the bottom? Bottoms only.

That was my nickname in college. No, I didn't go to college. I never didn't go to college. I was like, I think it's important to know. He's joking. He's lying. He's lying. So, yeah, I was all ready for bed and then I forgot something.

So instead of putting my clothes back on, I just run over to the other room. I'm finishing something at my computer. I close it and I turn around to like scurry back to my bedroom. And as I'm doing that, I catch this, like, flash of my grandfather who passed away when I was 12 and who I was very close with. I had a really, really good relationship with him. And I just have this, yeah, this image of him standing in the hallway between my studio and my bedroom. And I freak. I'm terrified.

And I run into my bedroom, pull the covers over my head. No longer scurrying. You are running. My second. My first thought was this is. freaky. My second thought was, oh no, my grandfather can't see me topless. That was the thing. At this point, I couldn't see him anymore, but I knew he was there. So the only way I can describe it is like, I saw that flash of him and it was as if I was like allowed to see him just for a moment.

Yeah, you know that it was real. Yeah, just so I was believe it with my physical eyes. And then I no longer needed that. I was like, okay, I'm in it. And then you guys were like texting. I believe this. Yeah. The first you were FaceTime and I were like, you know, let's move to text. I don't have enough bandwidth. My Wi-Fi is not great. I'm not a medium all the time. And, well, first of all, I have this thought of, I'm naked. My grandfather can't see me that way.

And then he laughs and he, like, thinks it's hysterical. He's like, I don't care. And that, like, put me at ease immediately. And then I thought, okay, if he is here and we're already having this sort of back and forth, It's like I'm not hearing anything, but I'm like intuiting that he's having this reaction, right? So if I'm, if we're already here, why not ask him something? And at the time I was, I think we had just recently moved to L.A. And I was really trying to get to know my neighbors.

That's something that I've talked about before is like really important to me to like have a good relationship with people around me. Yeah, community building. And I really wanted him to support me in that. I wanted his help. So I asked for that in my head. And he just kind of like very warmly was like, of course I'm always here. I will always be helping you. And that was it.

That was the end of the experience. But actually since then, I have had like flashes of him frequently. Like, you know, I'd be walking down the street actually with my, with a couple of neighbors. And I just like feel him walking in step. Or sometimes I will like be sitting on the couch and I will have this like, image in my head or what I would have just like dismissed before

will be just like an image of him sitting next to me on the couch and then I just like lean into it like maybe he is maybe he's right here and I just try to like imagine the rest of the scenario and sometimes I see more not see but feel more

and sometimes I feel like a hand on my shoulder or something like that and it's been just this really sweet experience And since I'm not using it as maybe a medium would to, like, give somebody else advice, not that I, I'm not saying that those are incorrect always or, but I think that you can get into tricky water if you're using it to give other people advice. I'm not doing that. And so I feel very comfortable just accepting it and just thinking of it as real. I love that, Sophie. Penn.

Have you had a mystical experience? You know, I actually have a lot of, like, I don't know, kind of different stories. some of them are kind of extreme but the one that comes to mind is a subtler one and so maybe to help normalize mysticism I'll tell that one

It was my stepson It was his ninth birthday And he happened to have Just I don't know why Nine friends coming over And so they're all eight or nine years old For a while I was responsible for getting them all to sleep

I think and and so there are between like two rooms and then like some are on the couch and living room and it's getting really late and then like but like I got they all were you know pretty patient getting to getting to rest and except for one there was this one kid in particular who who was really idiosyncratic and like clearly had a brilliant mind and just had some behavioral things like you know just things that were difficult and he was like you fancied himself a comedian um this night of all nights i'd never seen it in him before but he really really you know was like getting so basically just in this one room where he was there was three

kids he would he would not let them sleep because he kept telling this joke same joke it was he was he was like he was like he was like in his underwear and he was like he was like me he was like me yeah actually he was topless it was just yeah and he was like i see dead people my grandfather won't leave me alone. And basically, like, it was funny, but then I go to the other kids and I'm like, yeah, guys, you're actually tired. You want to go to sleep? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. So, so, so I say to this kid, what do you normally do to go to sleep? And, um, and he was like, well, my, sometimes my mom will give me a, uh, what does that stuff call? I'm forgetting

when it's called. It's, um, ambient. No. Uh, no, no, no, no, what's, so. Melatonin, yeah, yeah, little, like, little lick of melatonin. And so he got fixated on this. He really wanted to take this melatonin. And I look it up, and I'm thinking on one hand it's maybe okay. But then I'm seeing a lot of, like, you know, disclaimers, FDA, do not give to children to the age of 12, da, da, da, da. So I'm like, okay, I'm not going to give this kid melatonin.

But he's fixated. And at this point, all the other kids have fallen asleep. And he won't, he just won't. And it's, by the way, I'm pretty sure it's like, it's like midnight at this point. So I go, I finally decide we're having lots of really funny back and forth conversation. And I'm just thinking the whole time, I'm like, this is, like, I'm not upset, but like, where does this go? Like, he's not letting it go. He's, like, fixated in having malitone.

So I go to CVS, to see what I can get. If there's anything that is, like, totally fine. And there's not a single one that has any. thing without fine print that is like do not give to this kid basically and um and so and so here's what i do i buy the the the the smallest dose i take it back um and just just give him the whole lot of no no no so i yeah um so i i make him some chamomile tea and then you know and i really don't like to lie nava has spoken about this before maybe sophie has lied about it. I'm not sure. But we, but, but we, you know, just a principle of our faith is Baha'is. It's like,

you know, lying is really a terrible thing to do. So, you know, I really have, since I became a Baha'i, like really, really try not to, even in the smallest of ways. Sometimes to his detriment. You don't lie. Yeah, it's true. It's like, are you excited? No. No. I'm not. And so this kid is watching me and I just kind of shift my body and I make it look like I'm putting melatonin in the chamomile tea after I've made him tea

and we're talking all along you know it's a sweet thing placebo effect and then yeah and then so I put it in but I don't and just give him the tea and then and then

and then he sips some and he's just you know having this really sweet little nine year old moment and I'm like do you feel a little bit better now he's like yeah I think so is like are you sleepy yet and he's like no And I was like, okay, well, how about if I sit in the room and meditate with you in the dark, will you, would that be okay?

Well, you just should have lay there until you can fall asleep? And he's like, yeah. And so we go in and it gets in a sleeping bag. The other kids are like, woken up a bit. And I'm like, it's okay, we're just going to sit here and I'm going to meditate. It's okay. I'm just going to leave when he falls asleep. Sweet.

And I do that. And so for maybe about 20 minutes, I just sit in the dark with these three kids while they fall back asleep. And they do. And I haven't done a great storytelling. job of telling you how absolutely chaotic it was for like an hour and a half but but but but rest assured it was because there were nine nine year olds and then so as I'm walking and this is this point everybody's asleep domino's asleep our dog was asleep like everybody was asleep and it's past midnight and I got him down like all the nine year olds and so I I'm I'm closing the door and going to to our bedroom to

go to sleep and I look back at the door and Sophie's grandfather is standing there. No, no, I, I, no. And this is where like, this is where there's nothing I can really say, which captures it. However, I turn around and look at the door. And in my periphery, I can see all, I can see both the rooms that the kids are sleeping in the rooms and then the, and then the two kids or three kids in the couch. So in my vision is kind of like the nine-nine-year-olds on my stepson's ninth birthday.

and I just have this and the number wasn't important but I'm just saying it's there I just had this sense like wow it's possible like this like every like it seemed as though the atoms were charged my heart lifted

humanity's potential seemed to stretch out eons before me you know everything and kind of nothing happened all at once like silence was so loud and powerful. I felt like my nervous system settled. You know, the effects of meditation and prayer that people talk about that science has actually, you know, proven beyond any doubt now. I just felt it in that moment, you know? And when people talk about like make your life a walking prayer, I felt like that was a moment, you know? It was just a, it was, it was really, really powerful.

That's really sweet. I have a story and it just requires a little bit of a setup. Asmatic. So this, bear this in mind, I have asthma. So I was in Puerto Rico for a year during the pandemic. My dad has a property that's ocean front. And so we were going, every day we were going on a daily walk, 10,000 steps. And then sometimes we would go swimming. And there was like one day of the week that I sort of dipped in the water. And this girl, the ocean was pretty empty.

And this girl came up to me and she was sort of like waving at me. And I looked behind me because I didn't know this girl. There was no one there. So I came out to talk to and she was like, do you speak Spanish? And I said yes. And she said, you should get out of the water. there are like really strong riptides. It's not safe. A lot of people have been drowning on this beach. And so I got out of the water. I was super thankful to her. Then so a normal person or a thoughtful person would like check the weather app to be like, is it safe to, because in Puerto Rico, it'll tell you if it's safe to get in the water or not. I just forgot. And so the following week, my dad and I went on a walk and I hit my 10,000 steps before he did. So he kept going and I was like, I'm just going to swim. I didn't tell him. I was just like waiting for him. And then I decided to take a dip. And I did notice that there was no one. the water but I thought it was like the hour and I had heard that the sort of in that story with

that girl she had shared that a girl had gone out started to drown a guy went in to get her and he died but she made it to shore and that this is like a common phenomenon that the person that goes in for you dies and sometimes you make it out yeah that does like yeah I don't know maybe there's no one to get you out like you can then get trapped in the in the thing so anyway I get the water. I am not like swimming very far out at all, but for a moment, I'm like, let me just float. It's like so pretty. It's so calm. Close my eyes, start to flow. And to me, I don't know how long it was. It felt like 30 seconds, but I just hear a voice very calmly like, hey, Neva, you should open your eyes. So I open my eyes and I am very far from the shore. Like,

I cannot believe how far I am from the shore. A current had just pulled me and I didn't sense it. And I'm like, oh, crap. Like, I'm kind of dire too. I just went on this long walk, but I'm a pretty good swimmer so I'll be fine so I try to start to swim to shore and I can't like basically I'm in this area where the waves in Spanish they say don't laola te chupa which is like where the wave sucks you but it's basically where the waves kind of form and so I just keep getting sucked in by a wave and it happens three times and I start to like really lose energy and I'm like not breathing well and I'm like oh my god I think I'm going to drown like it just hits me like oh I'm going to drown and I say a little prayer in Arabic that my mom taught me.

It's a protection prayer. And as soon as I finish saying the prayer, I have like very clear guidance. So the first thing that is that I feel communicated to me is don't panic. God is not going to let you drown. Just do exactly as you're told. So I'm like, okay. And then I think, well, I should swim parallel to shore because I know that's how you get out of a riptide. And this voice in my head is like, do not swim parallel to shore.

It will not help you and you will die. Like, you will lose energy. And how tired are you at this point? I'm pretty tired. And it actually happens pretty quickly. Like, when people who die in this situation, like, it's pretty quick. Because I think part of it is the panicking. But you lose breath and all this stuff.

No, totally. I mean, I think it really is like after just even 30 seconds of like hard swimming. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. So I'm like pretty tired. And so this voice in my head is like, do not swim parallel to shore. It literally says you will not, it will not help and you will die.

Like that is what I hear. And in that moment, I'm like, is this real or not? Like, I literally, this is a life and death's decision. So can I actually ask, like, because this is, I'm fascinated for other people as well. Like, when you say you hear a voice, like, can you say a little bit more about that? I don't know how to explain it. It's like, it doesn't happen often, but sometimes I've had a few moments in my life. This was the most clear.

I just know that someone is communicating with me, something, someone, and it's not me. So that was like, it's not like a male voice. It's not like the voice of God. I don't know who it is but it could be an ancestor it could be the divine I don't know but it was like unbidden thoughts

like thoughts that aren't coming from me I know that I'm not generating them and so anyway so this thought is like don't do the parallel thing but I do in that moment I'm like I this is a life and death moment like if this is my imagination

I'm going to die by not swimming parallel and if this is not my imagination I'm going to die if I swim parallel because that's what the voice is telling me so I'm like okay like I'm just going to have faith that like this is God and then the next

thing is just float like go very still float let the wave spit you out and then swim to shore as fast as you can once it has spit you out so I'm like okay this is like literally the opposite of what my body my body is not telling me to float my body is telling me to swim like fight I'm like okay so I float and then the wave spits me out and then as soon as I should assume it sucks me back up again and so I do it again and it happens again and I know that I have one more shot like I just know that somehow I'm like if I don't make it out this third time I am dead like I I don't have the energy to keep going. And also I'm not so scared of death, so like, that's okay.

I'm sort of like, it's okay if I die. But I do have this thought, like, poor Tommy, like my dad. My dad is not going to know. Like, what if he doesn't find my body? You know, like all of that is happening. Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is that there was one man on the shore. And I could have done, there's like a drowning symbol that you can do. And it's well known in Puerto Rico because it's just like beach culture.

And I thought about doing it. But I remembered that that guy that had gone and died for the woman. And I was like, you know what? like I'm either going to live or die, but I'm not going to bring someone else into it because it's too much guilt if that happened. So I decide. Mobility.

I decided not to do the drowning symbol. So it's sort of like, it's me and God. Like, it's just like that's how I'm going to get out or I'm going to die. And can you, so, and I mean, I don't want to interrupt too much,

but I also love just for people who are listening and kind of, because this story to me is very fascinating. I really like it. Can you clarify a little bit like, we don't want to get to theology here, but when you say you're hearing God, like, know that what's going to get me out is outside of me.

Like, there's not a human who's going to come and save me right now in this moment. Like, it's me in this voice, basically. But remember that the first thing that I heard was, don't panic, God is not going to let you drown, which is why in my mind, I'm like, it's me and God, right? So, anyway, so I'm, so I have a third shot. I know it's my last shot. I float, it spits me out, and I swim, and I start swimming harder than I've ever swam. And it's quite far, and I make it.

I made it to shore. And when I made it to shore, I was like, high. hyperventile. I mean, I've never been in, like, never had so much physical exertion in my life. And I have this feeling and I don't know how to explain it, but I have, I will say this just directly. The Baha'i faith, the prophet is named Baha'u'llah. I have this strong feeling that Baha'u'lla carried me to shore. And, like, I know that I didn't have the energy to make it to shore and that someone carried me. And I feel it really strong. And I'm like, weeping on the same. I'm like, like, sobbing. Like, I've just had this experience. And like, I really feel like, Baha'la carried me to sure. So basically a month later, we can edit this down if it's too long, but a month later, my dad and I are walking our dog Oliver. He's like a brand new puppy. We're walking him on the beach. I'm going to skip some details, but it's kind of mystical how we end up in the spot of the beach that we end up to end up at. And basically we're like walking the dog and we see a man in the ocean in the middle of the ocean and he's during the drowning symbol. And I'm like,

oh my God, I grabbed my dad's arm and I'm like, oh my God, that man is drowning. But the man is very tall, athletic, and he's standing. But he keeps getting knocked down by the wave. And nobody is paying attention, even though he's clearly doing the symbol with his two arms. And so I like, start calling out. I'm like, that man is drowning in Spanish. And there happened to be two policemen patrolling the beach because it's the pandemic. And you had to wear masks even on the beach. So they're enforcing that. And I'm like, police, police, police. And so the police stop. But like, basically, nobody thinks that he's actually drowning. And I'm, look at my dad. I'm like, daddy, I know that he's drowning. That's the exact.

spot I was in and the waves are knocking him out and I think like maybe I should go in the water but I'm like I think I'll probably die which I'm totally okay with but it will be so traumatic for my dad to watch me die and my dad is too old to die so I'm like what do we do and I just say that prayer that prayer in Arabic the one that I had said when I was in the water and my dad says it too we like hold hands and we both say it and as soon as we say it the man starts floating he just gets on his back and floats him out and he starts to swim but he doesn't make it he drowns. And then because there had been a little group of form, because I had been screaming, this man is drowning. These two men like jump into the water. The police go and get like a sort of like a

floaty thing. And they go and they get him and they bring him to shore. Like they carry him to shore. And then they do CPR on him and he, he survived. But I also was like, oh, like God carried me to shore. Like that man is tall, athletic. He like, you don't make it. Like you've, you've lost all of your energy. So I also felt like even to see someone else to do it. Like it was like the final piece of confirmation that I needed that like, that experience was real. And then the final, final piece of confirmation is that my friend Carla came over the day before I was leaving for California.

We were at the beach. This didn't scare me from swimming, by the way. And I was like, Carla, you want to get in the water? And she was like, actually, you know, a lot of people have been drowning in this beach. Last week, three people died outside the Marriott, like the, you know, the current pulled them. And she said the, in Nuevo Dia, which is the big newspaper in Puerto Rico, they published an article about what to do when you're drowning. And they said there's two things.

One is a riptide. And you swim parallel to shore. but the other is where las olas te chupan and if you swim parallel to short it won't work you have to float and let the waves spit you out and then swim and I was like I just grabbed her arm That's what I did but I didn't know That's what the voice told me to do

And I grabbed her arm and I was like Carla I almost died and like I told her the story And she was like that was God And she just started crying Don't go anywhere We'll be right back As a former teacher I know that teachers move fast.

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Go to quince.com slash podcrushed for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's QI-N-C-E.com slash podcrushed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. Someone did ask us, what convinced you that God exists? That story. You know, I do want to say something about monotheism. That it's an intellectual word. It's an academic word.

And, you know, never used it earlier. And it's accurate to describe the sense that, you know, the central pivot of the Baha'i faith is this oneness of God, which is also the oneness of reality, the oneness of humanity. So to say that's monotheistic, I think sometimes doesn't capture, you know, just this idea that the unknowable essence that we may call God transcends plurality and singleness, transcends existence and non-existence.

There's essentially nothing we can say about God, which gets us closer to God, as evident by what I'm saying right now, which is why. I feel further away from God since this conversation started. Me too. Me too. I do. But that's why we need these divine educators. So, anyway. Penny, I'm curious, because as someone who wasn't born, I mean, you've said many times on the show that your family was like pretty atheist. You were pretty atheist growing up. What did convince you that there was God that spirituality is a path worth pursuing? Yeah. I mean, well, not a, it's convincing is the word that our listener used. And I'll chide them for it because it's not the right word. the word that i would use because i don't think anyone is ever convinced right i don't think

that that's how anyone uh sees the world i i don't know that there are times where we make decisions but there's a relatively rare i think it's like we we we see things the way we see things and our experiences shape us over time and my you know my home was an atheist it was very typically agnostic for like a white american home like middle class white american home it was just there just wasn't exploration of it or reference or even questioning of it that seemed to me you know it's like we maybe went to church on christmas it all seemed a bit preposterous this notion religion seemed like a clearly about power you know it um i don't know if i could have named who quoted it but i definitely knew the quote really

is the opiate of the masses. I'm hoping that's Karl Marx. I'm pretty sure it's Karl Marx. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I can confirm for you. Yeah. And Nietzsche said religion, God is dead.

Yeah. But Sophie's grandfather said, I don't care. I know. Sweet. But yeah, so, you know, I think that actually I had a lot. lot of sadness growing up because the suggestion the accepted assumption and suggestion that came to me through really like media like i think that became my that became my my religion i think that's i think something supplants religion we have it seems to me that the human being has a tendency to

to be devoted to something you know to sort of worship something we live in an era where we sort of worship the self and we worship technology and we worship other people we don't worship anything like higher than us. But we do tend to worship things and become fixated. And not having anything noble or divine or heavenly or beautiful to really devote myself to. I think it just, you know, art was definitely the best that could be offered. Music was the thing. Music was like my religion in a way.

So actually, you know, it was interesting. I have recently understood that when I loved an artist and then they like would demonstrate a view or something that was like that was not consonant with my own, I would feel offended because up until that point they had seemed almost like a priest or an acolyte or something that would represent to me like, you're on the right path

and I can confirm that for you you know but I don't know I mean by the time I was in my mid-20s and on Gossip Girl and had gotten the confirmation the stupid boring confirmation that no one believed until they get it that fame and wealth

does not make you happy and if anything it depresses you don't take it from me pursue it I encourage you to pursue it I encourage you to pursue it get that bag get that bag get those followers, it will do for you what you will discover.

So, you know, I really, I was actually assuming that my best, my best guess was that the cultures of the past could give us something, really ancient indigenous cultures was what I wanted knowledge from, but I couldn't find that authentically. I was staying with a tribe called the Kogi tribe in Colombia back in 2011, early 2011. And how did you find your way there? Like when you say you were staying with this tribe?

Yeah. Can you explain that more? Well, okay, here's a little bit of mystical experience. I, it started with this book that I, that like nearly fell off the shelf. It didn't actually fall off the shelf. It didn't. Sophie's grandfather wasn't there.

It just goes, like Matthew McConaughey and Tristeller. Yeah. But I was like 18 or 19 in the Barnes & Noble and Union Square, which is still there. It's one of the few things that's still there. And I don't know what I was there for, but I saw the cover of this book

that had a mushroom on it and this crazy, like it was a really effective cover because it used perspective to like zoom in on that little icon of a photograph of a probably a psilocybin mushroom and i um was just like blah what is that and uh and i and i bought it read the first couple pages wasn't interested and then and then wouldn't pick it up again for another few years it's called breaking open the head by daniel pinchback i became he he was one of many who you know believe there's there's there's something about consciousness that psychedelics are are communicating to us, I then kind of pursued the whole notion of, you know, Gaia, like the

earth being this sacred organism, which I also still believe. I mean, it's very much like a sacred organism as all organisms are sacred and it is this sort of living, breathing, being. But I pray to something more transcendent than that now than just our planet. But that's what I was doing then. and I was exploring, you know, every indigenous culture that I could at least find, which is to say, I don't know, Google about or like, you know, Wikipedia and how accurate is that. I was just doing what I could, you know, found, oh, and then, you know what, and so then actually I met this author, this Daniel Pinchbeck, who I had since come to really revere in a way. He was like a very influential.

There are a few figures I could think of as influential. he's one of them encouraging me to sort of believe in more than just the sort of atoms and material of the physical

dimension of life and and I mean as many years later at this point but I basically ran into him at a bar and my friend fell into his lap

actually because it was so crowded in this really obnoxious bar really I won't shout out the name because it's probably still there and the people who run it. But it was this obnoxious hipster bar that like in all my years somehow I could not never had an easy time getting into.

And it's like how, and they were really, really, really, really, really exclusive. They would turn so many people away. And I would so often get in with friends just so casually. But like at my height on gossip girl, I was like, it still was like I'm like this fumbling idiot. And I never was going to like force my way in at all. But I just remember being like, that place is so pretentious. It's full of the hipsters of the hipsters of the hipsters.

You know? No, it was like I can get in all the time if I'm with the right person. Yeah. And then I can see what would have. And it just was like, I don't think I was ever actually turned away, but there was always some kind of like. They just wanted to make you feel. Yeah.

And I think, and I only ever went with friends who wanted to go or like somebody's like, hey, where can we go? And it's like, I don't know if I'm going to that place. So I go there with my friend. Dan, shout out to Dan Stern. And then I end up running into this other Dan, Daniel, pinchback. And I play Dan on Gossip Girl. So that's something that...

We were all thinking it. Thank you. It's the Trinity of Dan. This story is going to lead to you believing in God, right? In Gossip Girl. It leads to me believing in Gossip Girl. Gossip Girl and God. Yeah, the Trinity of Daniel...

That should be your new podcast. And a portal opened and Adam Brody fell out. No, so, so anyway, but this guy who had who had been in his books exploring a kind of psychedelic mysticism that originates from ancient cultures, indigenous cultures, and was trying to explore them similarly, you know, through like contact with these cultures and engaging in their ceremonies, I run into him. Basically, I tell him, hey, I don't want to, like, blow up your spot, but your book kind of changed my life. But I don't want to, you know, bother you. And then just kind of turned away. And then, like, five or ten minutes later, he comes back and he's like, hey, what do you mean? And so we start talking for a while.

And then he invites me on this trip that he's going to to stay with his Kogi tribe. And so I was really excited about that, really, really excited about that. And then the first night there, I met a Baha'i. I didn't know he was a Baha'i. He was like the only other 24-year-old white guy from New York City there. so I wasn't interested in speaking to him. But we just would run into each other during like Occupy Wall Street protests

and other kind of like things like that. And he was always talking to me about the link between individual transformation and social transformation and that it being a mystical one, a spiritual one. Eventually I was like, what do you mean? And then very indirectly, I mean, if he told me that the Baha'i faith was a religion,

I wouldn't have called it the Baha'i faith I don't know what I would have I don't know what my impression was I don't quite recall but he was very indirect and really took his time which was the right way for me probably but I still don't get the part

where you believed in God and decided to have a spiritual path this is your encounter with it but what? Yeah these are encounters I mean the truth is at that point I already was very much praying and believe like along the way

I always believe there was something, but it was so unclear what it was. Yeah, it went from music, to... Yeah, yeah, to... Yeah, like, I really did believe for a while that the answer was in psychedelics, naturally existing, like, in theogens, like, something that I could... Maybe that's

right, is that right? I really believe that if it was naturally occurring, that somehow that's like a message, a gift from the planet, you know, the largest sort of living organism I could cite and defer to,

You know. And then I think it just really grew. I think as much as I pursued it, I read a lot of Terrence McKenna. I don't know if you guys know who that is. His stuff becomes inco- You know, the more I pursued psychedelics seriously, the more I realize that everyone who does that

becomes incoherent. Wow. And, I mean, really, seriously. Shout out to all those who are incoherent. You know, because I know I know that it's a really attractive and interesting idea these days. And I seriously pursued it. Like, you know, ayahuasca, that's the main one. Mushrooms. I did some other things that I won't reference here, which don't need to be, you know, shout it out. But I was really trying, I found myself in some strange situations and found myself in really, really, really strange states of mind and really encouraging states of mind. you know like integration and disintegration all at once um i neared what i thought might be a psychotic break i uh also experienced a lot of depression not as a result of these things but like through this

pursuit not you know like where to turn who's going to who's going to have surely there must be an answer right like surely surely there must be some way to answer this burning question of ultimately like what are we doing here? And what is my role in what we're doing here? You know what's interesting? I was listening to a podcast with David and the person being interviewed as a physician who's studying near-death experiences.

It was Theo Vaughn's podcast and he was asking him if he's found some kind of link between psychedelic experiences, which, yeah, psychedelic experiences and near-death experiences because they were sounding similar to Theo. and he was saying, actually, no, one, like, very distinct difference is that in all the near-death experiences that he's studied or, like, gathered, there's never, it's always a sense of calm and that that's not often the case with psychedelics, that there's always, like, there's like some element of, yeah, stress or, or fear, and that's never the case in a near-death experience, which I thought was interesting.

I mean, it really depends. Like, I think you can, you know, we can start talking. talking about all the qualities of good and bad trip if you want, but, um, uh, I think our listeners might prefer that. I mean, listen, it's, I mean, listen, it's set and setting. It is set and setting. You got to be with the right people. You got to be in right place. You've got to take the right stuff. We mentioned interstellar once. And Matthew McGahnoy joined us. Did we, did we mention interstellar? She didn't even, we didn't need to mention interstellar. She did. Oh, right. You said the zoom cut out for that. I, I know, no, no, seriously. I actually was not sure what you said. I was just like,

I was going to say you laughed. You say you do lie. I'm an actor. You do laugh. No, I was engaging in a social norm and making everybody feel comfortable. And trying to keep the podcast going by telling a long, boring story that doesn't even have a point or an ending. Is this really our podcast today? Is this really what we're doing?

One thing I will say, and then I think Nava, you are going to say something. But there's a prayer that is really beautiful. in the Baha'i writings where it goes through different natural, like, features, like ocean, mountain, a few others. And with each one, it says, like, like, when I look at the mountains, I'm reminded of thy might. When I look at the ocean, I'm reminded of thy vastness. It's like basically correlating elements of nature to, like, a belief in God and that those things are reminders.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like basically that everything in everything in the natural world is a reflection of a divine attribute. Yeah. And just I think that that is when we're talking about what convinces. That's not something that would convince me of the existence of God, but it is something that resonates for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and also, I mean, to me, it's sort of like in a lot of these things, do we worship the lamp or do we worship the source of the light? We, Penn and I were on a call earlier where we were exploring, I won't, I promise I'm not going to spoil this. but we were exploring sort of like how people, what were people's beliefs in the medieval times? And one of the things that came up was like, everyone believed in God. And the way that this person presented,

it was sort of like everyone believed that God was watching them 24-7 and like if they slipped up, it was just such a terrible thing. And I was thinking about, I mean, probably some of that comes from like the Old Testament. I don't know if that's true. I'm not trying to say anything. But I think the Old Testament maybe has a portrait of God

that is among the more wrathful from the different texts. So I think there's a reason for that. But I was thinking about like, oh, that's interesting, this notion that, like, God is watching you 24-7 and, like, waiting for you to slip up or, like, going to punish you if you slip up. And I, you know, I also believe that God is with us 24-7, but to me it's, like, such a source of confidence and, like, safety and security, like, you're never alone. Like, there's this.

And also because God is an unknowable essence, like, we don't know what God is, but we know God isn't a person in a way. maybe we can think of God is not a person. It sounded like you might have said, is in a person. God is in. And we're trying to find which one. Go find them. He's like Waldo. Where is that man? God is not a person. And maybe the way that I think of it, which is wrong, because none of us can really accurately understand it. But is like a source, like an energy, but more personal than that. But anyway, that you're always, you always have this capacity to tap into this divine source. And it's like an illivistic. limitable resource that can never be exhausted. Whereas in this world, we live with limited resources and we see what's happening when we start exhausting them and not everybody can have them. And this is like, this is so different. Like every one of us can like tap into it at any moment. And if we like cleanse our hearts and we do certain things, like we can access greater and greater amounts of that resource. And I just don't think that's scary at all. I think that's so empowering and so beautiful. But it's such a different take on like the idea of God always being there, always being present. Is your vision of. of God, like scary, wrathful, someone that wants you to mess up and then punish you? Or is it

something else, like a force that's with you that helps you, that animates you, that encourages you when you mess up, gives you the strength to keep going? And we'll be right back. I don't have my own dog at the moment, but David and I have said, for years that when we get a backyard, we'll consider getting a dog again. And, well, we have a backyard now. So in preparation for that day when Anais inevitably comes home begging for a furry friend, I've been doing my research and Nom Nom stood out to me because it's real, fresh food with recipes designed by the very people who know best. Vets. You can't get better than that. Nom Nom makes food that actually engages your pup's senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures,

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local pet smart store or at chewy.com. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed. Spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Well, hi, everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser than Me podcast, and I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill, it could be enriching our soil or feeding

our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest, and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can, but it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone.

Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless, and it's fully automated, and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America, and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk-free trial. Go to mill.com. slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Steve Burns, and I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?

Yeah, and look at us now. Like, we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown-up stuff, and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media, alive with Steve Burns is coming September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube um we'll maybe can end on on a on a on a lighter note that was late no it was light it was great so on a heavy note pen make it heavy again so let's go out

on a on a on a on a on a on a on a on a dumb note okay love that love that for you Carl marks Yeah, let's go with some Marxist dribble. No, you just were talking about illimitable resources, but then we see how in this life, how we're sort of beset and burdened by, you know, very limited resources and what happens when we exhaust them. I recently stumbled into a conversation about climate change with my three-and-a-half-year-old because we're talking about dinosaurs.

And then I was like, well, you know, actually those dinosaurs are actually what makes gas. You know, I was like explaining fossil fuel. And then, and then I was like, and you know how we were one day talking about like he was walking around the back of the car and I was like, oh, you don't want to like walk through the exhaust and it's very, very cold here.

So you can see the exhaust very well. And I was like, oh, just stay away from that. And then like I made the joke that there were dinosaurs in that. So then, so like basically over the course of a couple different like little short, sweet little toddler conversations. We got to the place where it was like, yeah, so actually there's like a lot of dinosaurs in the sky.

I realized to my adult brain, I'm like, we have dredged the dinosaurs up and put them in the sky. And that is climate change in a nutshell. Thank you for coming to Podcrushed. We wish you all. Merry Christmas. Good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

Good night. every caregiving journey is unique but the isolation guilt and exhaustion we all feel that's universal it's reality it's life you know i wish it could all be happy and joyous but sometimes it's full of rage and that is what it is that's why this show exists to be a safe place for caregivers to land listen to squeezed wherever you get your podcasts Thank you.