Podcrushed - Jada Pinkett Smith

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

This week we are joined by the sensational Jada Pinkett Smith. Jada shares about her tumultuous adolescence in Baltimore, how her time in a metal band helped her learn how to shield her heart from bitterness, what she’s learned about healing and forgiveness in family relationships, and why love is only possible when we sacrifice our ego. Follow Podcrushed on socials:TikTokInstagramXSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I have no judgment on fame. It's an extreme thing, and that just means be ready for some extreme lessons. Those of us who are up for those extreme lessons, we walk that path, and then there's some of us who recognize these extreme lessons are not for me, you know, so you learn really quick. I mean, fame is full of illusions, you know? You learn real quick. You get in the game.

You recognize fast if it's a game for you. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie. And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Singing Casey and Jojo in the back of our station wagon.

You are the only one my everything. And for you, it's an all my. No. Welcome everyone to Podcrushed. Penn, I'm going to jump right in. Where are you right now? And why are you right now? I'm with Andrew Garfield.

I'm dying. Sophie and Neva were just ribbing me about my brief sojourn with Andrew Garfield, which I suppose became a little flash-in-the-pan moment on the old socials. More than most of us get. Because I'm in Paris. I'm in Paris. I'm in Paris. But I think that maybe,

yeah, so I went to a fact. I haven't done that in a long. No, that's not true. I went to the Tom Brown show last year. And I got to say, really beautiful experience. Oh, really? Tell us about it. Yeah.

Oh, it's left me. I can't do that. I can only be cynical and laugh about it after the fact. No, the show itself was a moving performance. Wow. Like FK.A. Twigs sang and there was dancing, and it just, you. you know, it elevated the clothing,

the clothing elevated the performance. It was, it was a really, I'm, I'm into it. I'm into it. Like, if I was going to do this, this is the way. And brought my good friend Gabriel Turner, shout out to Gabe. Giggedy Gabe. Another dad, by the way.

So it's like, here's what we were looking forward to the most. I'm not making this up. And this is no slight to anybody we've come in contact with here. We were looking forward to sleeping. As fathers, we're just like, hey, like two maybe three nights in a row of just like unmitigated sleep like in a hotel room like you have to be kidding me that sounds that sounds great but yeah really really enjoying it and you know i wore a skirt i wore two skirts you did yeah oh wait a second i haven't told you guys this i was meant to be sat next to usher really wow he was also wearing a shirt sent it to dom yeah um was he were meant to be but what happened he was wearing a pleated skirt was he well so at the sh At this show, so he was late. Usher was late.

No slight to him, whatever I get it. He was playing a show later that night. He's got a lot of things going on in his life. He is Usher. Who sat in your spot? His spot? Me, no one. I mean, it was just, I sat next to Cher and her boyfriend.

That's not no one. No one. Just share. Some might argue more iconic. Like on the other side. Well, definitely, yes. No, yeah, yeah. What I mean was there was no one who took this spot.

It was just left empty. and then I sort of filled it in. I'm a bit down the other. Yeah. Yeah. Penn, I have to say, you said the last show you went to was Tom Brown. Usually, so an unfortunate side effect of being on this show with Penn is that for both NAB and our social media is flooded with videos of Penn.

Yes. Usually I'm just like, oh, you know, I don't want to watch this. Scroll, scroll, scroll. Yeah, because it's weird. I want to get to Andrew Garfield. Whereas you're doing it. Like that was. research. No, but there was a video of you. Someone, like, made an edit. I think it was

Tom, I think it was like the Tom Brown account. It was like the official video. It was Tom himself probably. Yeah. Tom Brown. I'm scratching it to screen. But that video I just sat there watching is like mesmerizing. It's like in slow mo at some point. And like you put on these glass and I was like, okay, I get it. Never, never in person. Never, never seen this side. But yeah, right. On my side. screen. Tom Brown's on it. Should we talk about our guest today? I just want to say, listeners, I don't know if you'll notice this, and maybe I shouldn't

prime you for it, but I think that this is the most nervous that we have ever collectively been. I could tell Penn was nervous. I could tell Sophie was nervous, and I was nervous. Because we didn't mention it. You're just like, you've got to focus. And that's because our guest today was Jada Pinkett. Smith, the icon. That's right. She's a real Baltimore native, just FY. Everybody thinks I'm like, people from Baltimore. like to be like to claim me and i wish i could claim that she tried to claim i was born in

baltimore i was she did for a moment i was like pen just go out yeah i was like you're out of no no no you can't live out of my people are from baltimore but i'm not so if you're somehow are not aware uh has she's an award-winning actress for franchises like magic mike uh the matrix girls trip she has red table talk which significantly has three generations of a family being vulnerable in a way that I think is highly commendable

what you may not know is that she has a book a memoir called Worthy which I think functions as a much more in-depth version of this interview because she gave us a taste of her own wisdom and speaking of wisdom she has a metal band called wicked wisdom which we also kind

explored in a very interesting and unexpected a little tangential storytelling moments. So not only are you going to like this, you probably love the book, so stick around. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel

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Keep mealtime exciting with NomNum available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at Trinom.com slash podcrushed, spelled trinom.m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad, the Reddy Devine, Eva Du René, and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the legacies they're building every single day. come be a part of the conversation Season 2 drops July 29 listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast

or watch us on YouTube Jada I mean honestly thank you like thank you so much for coming and being a part of this show I took particular interest in why the first full-fledged story you tell in your book from your youth is I mean you say literally

I'm going to quote you it's the summer of 1985 and at 13 I'm coming of age on these streets and you tell a story it's kind of exhilarating, a simple story you go to visit your boyfriend at a 7-Eleven and you talk to them all night while your mom works the graveyard shift

and then you race home before she can get there. And then you conclude this like prologue of sorts with safe is just one of many lies at this point in my life. So, you know, there's still lots of Jada that you couldn't include in the book paint a picture of 11, 12, 13 for you. And what did coming of age mean for you?

Well, I think my coming of age was pretty extreme. From like 10, 11, 12, I still had a really strong foundation in my maternal grandmother, which was my mother's mother, she Marion, who my mother and I lived with off and on throughout my childhood, and she passed when I was about 12 and a half, 13 years old. So once she passed, my growing up pretty much just took off because my mother's heroin addiction really accelerated after the passing of her mother. And she also divorced. Her husband at the time was also a pretty grounding, you know, father figure for me. So it was just me and my mom. And,

you know, we were on our own. And I was on my own a lot because she worked from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. And I was left alone. And being as mischievous as I was then and still am. You didn't sleep. You didn't sleep ever. I didn't sleep. Exactly. So, you know, I just took, I took to the streets. So I really, I grew up fast. I grew up fast. Jada, I'm just so curious, like, at that age, what were you discovering your, like, passions? Like, what were you really caring about who would you spend your time with? The arts was really the center, right? It was like I was part of the Twix program, preparing for Baltimore School for Arts, the high school in Baltimore. And you had to audition to get in. And at that time, it was really small, so it was a really selected few that got, that were allowed to go.

So, you know, I'm, I'm in drama classes. I'm in tap dance class. I'm, you know, all of the preparations you could think of. I mean, I'm also in middle school at Fall Staff Middle. And so, I mean, I had a pretty. you know, average middle school experience, you know, you're learning about sex and you're getting into fights and, you know, it's like you're learning that what, what you love about school and what you don't love about school. I wasn't a great student at all, terrible in math, loved social studies and English and that was pretty much it and you know

we were all I think one of the I think back now there was so many young girls who were intimate with men and at that time you're thinking you're grown you know what I'm saying you really think you're grown right

and I'm thinking 12 12 and 13 years old it's bananas I know It's bananas. And at that time, it seemed so, it was the norm, unfortunately. I was like the odd one out, you know? And so I was the nerd. Yeah.

And I was considered the nerd because my virginity, you know, my virginity, I think, I lost my virginity at 14. Everybody else then lost their virginity. I was like the last one out of my friend group. How did you feel about that? Did you feel any shame about that? I didn't really feel shame about it. You know, I was just like, all right, y'all have that.

When I'm ready, I'm ready. Like, I was like that. Take your time. Yeah, take your time. I wish I had to take it more time. 14. 14 is wild. Freaking baby, you know.

I have a 14-year-old now. And that's, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The last thing you want her thinking about is that, you know. So, you know, so we grew up fast. We could look fast.

Jada, you touch on female friendships in your book Worthy, and I wonder at this point in your life, what did female friendships look like for you and what role have they played in your life throughout? Like, what kinds of things have you learned along the way? My female friendships were everything, and because so many of us had, we didn't have,

a lot of my friends had addicts as parents, right? And so we really relied on one another to just as support as like, you know, who you don't kick it with for Christmas if your mom's in rehab, you know, also just like protection. It was like, yo, I got your back. You got my back because it was, we were really out in those streets just on our own, you know. I had one girlfriend whose mother also worked night shifts. And so when I wasn't, when I didn't want to be on the streets, I was with her a lot in her, in her home,

keeping her company because, you know, she was a whole body. Thank goodness. She never left the house. She actually listened to her mother. And so we really relied on one another a lot to survive, to feel loved, to feel connected. And so my homegirls were everything. And I had pockets up because a different homegirl represented something different, you know. And so I had Keisha, she was the homebody. So when I was ready to just kick it and be in the house, I was with her. And then I had Vaughn who could run the street.

She was older than me. So she could be out and about however, whenever, you know. And then I had my home girl, Ramsey, you know, who was a visual art student. who, you know, she would take me to her streets. I would bring her to mine, you know what I mean? Because she was half Japanese and half white, but I used to kick it with her with, like, poor white folks up in Baltimore. You know what I mean?

Those streets are different. And then I'd bring her to the hood with me, you know what I mean? And so we had all these different, I had all these different environments, and I had all these different home girls that represented different, verticals of my experience. And then when I met Tupac, his mother was also an addict. And she was a single mom.

And, you know, they had their difficulties. And so we were what you would consider, and I talk about it in the book, but we were orphans of it, not literally orphans, but we were on our own a lot. And so PAC came from extreme poverty. I don't know if people really understand that, you know, to the point that he didn't know if he was going to eat that day or not, you know. So at that time, I always had cash. I was just so I always made sure he was straight.

And he always made sure I was straight in a different kind of way. And so we really took good care of each other. And I think that is what really created. this bond between us because there was just this, this loyalty between us. We really helped each other get through some tough times. And so by the time we made it to Hollywood, you know, we really, we had to hold each other down in a different way. But we had a beautiful, beautiful friendship. And thank goodness, there just wasn't that that chemistry between us. And of course, that age you are wondering you're like what is wrong right you know because something's right because

something is right yeah something's so right it's like why can't we you know why can't we figure this out but it was just because it was not meant to be and since then you know I've learned how to develop I have a lot of beautiful platonic male friendships in my life you know and so he was He was the first. Okay. He was the first. He was my first. Yeah.

Incredible. Yeah. Jada, I'm going off script. I apologize to Pendant Sophie. I want to sort of like derail from this early childhood conversation for a moment. So I was thinking we recently spoke to a happiness expert and she was talking about how the number one misunderstood thing about happiness has to do with money and how we both underappreciate how important money is up to a certain standard. And that if we understood that we would really organize our societies in a way to make sure that there is like universal basic income, universal health care. but then we also misunderstand how that the amount isn't so great that we need to be happy

and that once you start getting into the higher levels it's not helpful and as someone who's experienced both i'm just wondering like what you've learned about money because not many people have have had the experience of both i feel like we always have this misconception about money being able to solve our problems right and that we feel like once we have a certain amount of it that we're exempt from the human experience in some way like we we won't suffer right our relationships people around us won't have to deal with problems you know that burden us um and i just found that with money i mean puffy said it right more money more problems right and i know that you know and then you know people never stop trying to make less money that's the

thing. Exactly. You don't want to stop trying to make less money. It's hard. It's hard. So it's this balance of, you know, not being attached to money in a way of believing that it's the thing that is going to cure your ills in life. You know, it can help you get resources, but I'm going to tell you something.

In recent years, especially after the epidemic and there's been a mental health crisis, right? we've all been touched by mental health issues in our families amongst our friend group and what having. You know, even when resources are not available, there's nothing that, even money can't do anything. It can't help you get a thing that's not available, right? It can't give you mental wellness. It can't. And they're, you know, even in trying to find the right, like, medicines and doctors or what have you.

So money can only help to an extent, but it's not the cure. And I think that's what it taught me. And it's not the thing to focus on in trying to have great relationships either. I mean, I would say that without money, I was, it felt as though I could create more genuine relationships. because people are with you because of who you are and not what you have. You know what I mean? And I think that's one of the reasons why also Pock and I stayed so close even after we got to this Hollywood situation because we recognized that.

You know, it's like, oh, you knew me and loved me when. And that meant a lot to us both, you know, because we knew that once we, you know, we started to see that once we got into this whole Hollywood game and we started, you know, moving up and making money and doing all kinds of things. Oh, so now everybody wants to be, you know, part of the picture, you know. And so, yeah, money, money is really interesting. Yeah. And it's, it's something that each individual has to develop their own personal relationship with it and understanding what kind of attachments they have to it, you know. But it's, It's energy.

How you use that energy, just like how you use any other energy, you just have to learn how to be responsible and how to use it in a way that supports more of what's true versus the illusions that it can create. That's really thoughtful. Yeah, I like that. Stick around. We'll be right back. All right. So let's just real talk, as they say, for a second. And that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now.

That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean the, in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like, you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick.

When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way. A spouse, a pet. You know, a job that sometimes has. as it demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. My family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful

little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really, really love. liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use, I use the, what is it called? Liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. Comes out in a packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it.

I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health, and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water.

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I think my first heartbreak was from the guy that I was going to see at 7-11. 7-11. 7-11. 7-11. That was like my first, that was like my first. heartbreak like that that feeling of rejection of like oh no I'm not good enough like he you know what I mean and um oh it was terrible it was terrible you know you have so much misunderstanding because you think that you think it's you you know I'm something's wrong with me and I had already had a a whole lot of thinking something was wrong with me you know in regards to like my parents choosing to be choosing

drugs over me, just all of the, you know, all of the messaging that we get so young that, that we're, we're not worthy of love. Jada, on that sort of on a related note in your, in your memoir, which I just have to say, it's so beautifully written, it's so captured. It's like hard to put down. Oh, thank you. And you share so, like, openly from your heart. So thank you for creating such a beautiful piece of art and putting that in the world.

But in your book, you talk about sort of this feeling of fracture from the sense that the two people who brought you into the world didn't make you a priority. And, you know, sometimes when I think of you, I think of Red Table Talk and I think of you and your daughter and your mother sitting together at the table. And I'm wondering, like, how has your relationship with your mom evolved and to the degree that there's been healing? What has made that possible? Well, you know, my mom decided to. to get clean when I was 20. And I do believe the most powerful healing between us began when I had my own children, started with Jaden, you know, when I was pregnant.

My mother was an OB-GYN nurse. She delivered babies. Yeah. And so she, while I was pregnant, and once I had Jaden, she came and she stayed with me, and she helped me with my first born because I had no idea what I was doing. And I just watched, I watched my mom give the kind of care, attention, and love that I felt like I didn't receive.

My mother loved me. I just didn't get that kind of attention and care, you know what I mean? So watching her love my kids the way that she has that the old, you know, the, the, the, the Adrian of yesterday just evaporated because she changed so much. I grew up with a different, the version of Adrian that was less true of the Adrian that she really is. so I got to really know who my mother is through how she was by my side through helping me raise my kids so I got that really healed that part of me

and I really got to see the distinction between you know the Adrian that wasn't that was addicted to heroin was she was that was not the true version of herself. I think that's a really beautiful example of like redemption or you know like evolution. And I wanted to ask you about your relationship with your daughter because similarly to what Navas said, like when I watch Red Table Talk, it seems from what I've observed you have such

an open, close relationship. I'm a few weeks away from having my first child, a daughter. and yeah thank you and I have been wondering how to create that kind of openness between a mother and daughter or between a mother and any child while maintaining an ability to sort of guide them because I would think that to create that openness to allow your child to be so open with you you need to withhold judgment and I wonder how you balance that and being able to still guide them and give them wisdom. What have you learned about that? So with Willow, the first thing I thought about was what are the experiences I want to help her not have or soften, right? And I was like, and I also thought about what did I need like at different stages of her life? Like when I

I looked at different stages of Willow's journey. I was like, what did I need at that time? Right? And I'm like, don't think about what the parenting playbook is. Look at what she needs and think about where you were at that stage. Yeah. And so that was the balance of me learning how to create a friend. friendship, a partnership with Willow, because young people need parents as their partners at

times, right? And also in recognizing when those like life or death situations come up where as a parent you put up a boundary, right? And so that's what I did with Willow. I wanted Willow, I wanted to be a partner to her while she was growing up, but also recognizing when, you know, she wants to be out at a party until 12 o'clock and she's 15. Like, absolutely not. Yeah. Ain't nothing out there.

Ain't nothing out there healthy for you. You know what I mean? And really having to. And that's what I was just have to say. This is where you've got to trust me. because I've been on this earth longer than you, but that's also why I shared experiences of mind with her so that she would understand,

I'm not just talking out the side of my neck, right? And so when we reconcile our journey and we don't have self-judgment about our journey, we don't have self-judgment about the journey of our daughter, specifically because they are direct mirror, of us and I think that a lot of sometimes I think mother-daughter relationships that have a lot of conflict within them is because there are a lot of moms that see themselves in their daughters and they just haven't reconciled that particular aspect totally you know that really

resonates with me I have a three-year-old and a 14-year-old stepson you know and I know that you have you have tray who's like your as you say kind of like your your your bonus child your your first of course it is different you know i mean i don't know the particulars of how his biological mother is or is it in his life but can you maybe if you're open to sharing because there are a lot of step families out there and each one can have a bit of a different different configuration can you talk about maybe some of the were you around for tray's uh like coming of age years adolescent years oh yeah for sure yeah and you know he has a he has a fantastic mom right And so one of the things, he was another one I had to look at and go, because I was a stepdaughter.

Yeah. That's right. Right. Right. And so I looked at my experience and I was like, what don't I want him to experience in this experience with me? You know, I was like, hey, first thing I got to do is that I have to develop a relationship with the most important, like one of the most important people in his life, and that's his mother. How can I not, how can I say that I love him and I want the best for him if I'm in conflict

with one of the most important people in his life? So that was first and foremost. And it took me a while to figure out my place because he had a mother. And I was very clear. I started to get very clear on how precious, sensitive, and I had to learn how to respect her position as his mother. That wasn't my place to try to step into his life as like a mother figure. Totally, yeah, yeah.

I had to, so with Trey, it started off as a friendship, right? And so just looking at myself as an adult friend and trying to look towards his father and his mother to see how I could be an assistance to him, to them, in raising him, while also developing my own friendship with Trey to get to know him and see what he was asking of me versus me trying to dictate to him what I was here to be in his life. Yeah, right. to always let him know that I'm as committed to him, you know, he's not my biological child, but he's, he's my baby too, you know. Jada, in reading your memoir, one of the themes that sort of stood out to me was, honestly, like the very intense degree of misogyny that you've been subjected to. And how you seem to have handled that with a lot of grace.

and I have like a couple of things that I want to explore with that, but one is sort of actually the fallout of what happened at the Oscars, if you're comfortable sharing about that. In your book, you say, the vitreel in the coming days did come faster and more furious than I'd predicted. Blaming the woman is nothing new, and I was clear on that. It was easy to spin the story of how the perfect Hollywood megastar had fallen to his demise because of his imperfect wife. And I'm wondering, you know, even though that is nothing new, I can't imagine how painful it must have been free. you to go through that. And in your book, you know, you share there's like additional context of what was happening in your home life that people didn't know that made it even more ironic that you would be the recipient of the blame. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit of that

context and then also what you've learned about like shielding your heart from bitterness because I feel like if I went through something like that, I would feel so bitter and so angry because it's so unfair. So that's what I was like thinking about as I was reading. Yeah. You know, I think because, I mean, and I talk about it in the book, but I think because when I decided to allow that false narrative, you know, about me being an adulteress in the first place, which was not true, and having to deal with all that came with that, I think that was preparation for the Oscars. And even before that,

before that, in the Wild Banshee chapter, when I decided to, you know, try my hand at metal. I had my metal bear, Wicked Wisdom. Having to deal with all of that prepared me. You know what I mean? It's like getting death threats and being on stage, having things thrown at you, people talking shit. I mean, it was crazy.

But the thing that I learned during my Wicked Wisdom days is that, you know, there's a story about these when I think I was in Kentucky. I was either Kentucky or Kansas and I was in this club and these, there were two young white kids in the club. These two young boys had to be like 17 and we're doing our set. And at one point, one of the, they both scream like, you know, the end word and put a bitch on the end of it and the whole crowd stops and looks and they're like whoa right and I left a little

I put a pin in that we continue with the show and every show I would go out into an area and sign autographs and I remember seeing those two kids in the corner and they kept standing and I remember going like you want an autograph, you want a picture.

And they came over and they got an autograph and they got a picture. And you know what that taught me? A lot of people out here are just talking. A lot of people are dealing with their own levels of self-hatred. A lot of people are dealing with their own levels of self-judgment and just have it reconciled with aspects of their life in a way that they feel like their outlet is to speak unkindly about other people.

But being in the metal world and having to deal with so much stuff that I had to deal with there, I realize that if you show people kindness, most of the time, not all the time. They change in a second. They don't mean it. They're just pissed. They're in existential misery. And you just happen to be a beautiful target for the day. You know what I mean?

And so coming back to that red tabletop and that led to a lot? lot of assumptions and misconceptions around the Oscars, I also had to take some responsibility of how I had not been helpful, you know what I'm saying, in the creation of the environment that was swirling around me. And I had to look at that, right? And I had to really look at some wounded areas in myself that really felt like I was doing justice. in abandoning myself at my own table, you know, that led to, you know, all the stuff I had to deal with at the Oscars. But I would say that my level of self-judgment

has really been reconciled in a beautiful way, that I could sit in that heat with compassion and really know who I am. And not only do, I know who I am, my kids know who I am, my kids know the truth, and Will knows the truth, you know what I mean? And so really being able to walk with,

it didn't matter what the world was saying. Didn't matter what everybody was saying. I know who I am, and that was just the ultimate test of it. Yeah, that's an incredible level of Z. then to get to you're remarkable day that i mean that yeah i mean yeah honestly hearing that and you know i like i've experienced a degree of the fame that you have and and not anywhere near the degree of vitriol but know what it's like to um to question the choices i've made that have led me

to a point where i will have to go through personal tests in the public eye right so i i would say you as much as anybody i can think of has has really gone through that for a long time you know I mean, you have, like, this public relationship, all, every, every manner of speculation possible from every, I mean, it's just like, it's just, it's bonkers, you know, like that so many people can believe they know what's going on in your life. Yeah. Is there, you know, I guess I don't know what the question is, because I feel like I'm probably working through it myself, but like, do you, what do you, what do you feel about you've learned through fame? Yeah, right. Therapy only gets you so far as we've learned in the book and as I've learned in my life. good only gets it so far what are your thoughts on the value of of fame and what it might do

and and do you think about do you dream about anonymity ever you know and what might you have with that um i definitely think that into the days to come i will definitely fade into the background just because there's other things calling me, you know, but I'll say it like this, like Rada Natswami told me one day he said that, um, as I remember thinking, oh, maybe, you know, it's my time to go find a cave in Tibet somewhere. And he said, you know, he said, you know, Jada, the holy woods are just as effective as a cave in Tibet. And so I say all this to say that we're given the experiences we're supposed to have in

order to learn, whatever it is, we're supposed to learn. You know, this life is a university. This world is a university. We all have our curriculum. I have no judgment on same, you know. I will just say that I do believe that it's something that it's an extreme thing. And that just means be ready for some extreme lessons. Those of us who are up for those extreme lessons, we walk that path. And then there's some of us who recognize these extreme lessons are not for me. So you learn really quick. I mean, fame is full of illusions.

You learn real quick. You get in the game, you recognize fast if it's a game for you. Yes, yes. You know, and some of us, and we've seen some people who haven't survived the gay. A lot, yeah. A lot of people, you know, so, but it's just one of those aspects of life. And we always can make a choice to be in or out. You know, what at least resonates with me, if there's a word that I've used a lot,

sometimes when I'm at my, you know, in the depths of it and really, searching my soul, calling on my spirit, you know, consulting with my wife. The word that comes up, I'm like, extremity is just so extreme. Like, why is so extreme? You know, and then you, of course, ask this question, like, am I cut out for a curriculum of extremity? That's right. Because it doesn't have to be.

It just doesn't have to be. You can end up learning the same thing and maybe even get the same degree. you didn't have to take that elective. Exactly. You maybe didn't have to. But maybe you will actually then find your dissertation is on something in that, you know, so anyway, that's not, yeah. But I really appreciate your answer. I love the way you said this world is a university and we each have our curriculum.

I've just never heard it described in that way. And so I want to ask you, what do you think is the ultimate lesson that you're trying to learn through your curriculum? Also, what's the purpose of life? Go. Okay. Love. Love. Love. I'm just trying to learn how to love. I'm trying to learn how to love myself and love others in just what is, not trying to hope for anything to be different. You know, it's like that's one of the, when you say, you know, my heart would have been so bitter. I still understand that, you know, and the amount of work that I've done in order to learn what's actually happening and learn to have.

compassion for people who haven't been so kind to me. And I understand that because guess what? I haven't been so kind to myself all the time. So in me learning how to be kind to myself and what that whole journey has been for me, I'm learning how to be kind to others in their imperfection and their humanness. It's so funny how we as human beings have such a disdain. for humanness, you know, and I'm just been learning how to accept and love my humanness and learning how to accept and love the humanness that surrounds me and not to take any of it, any of it personally. I saw a really beautiful quote from James Baldwin that I had not heard and I saw him speak it, which always also very much helps, especially his cadence, you know?

Yes. And he says, he says something that I won't be able to quote it verbatim and it won't be as powerful but he he effectively said like you know love has really never been a popular movement never and i think that when we think about love and want to roll our eyes we want to remember that subtitle you know like true true love has never been a popular movement and he was speaking of all people in different ways he said you know so many of us don't really want to be free, you know? Yeah. And I mean, that's very loaded. So, but yeah, what you're saying makes me think of that when we, when we're like, oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's not a popular movement because a lot of people think that loving is being a dormat and that's not what it means at all. Once you get through those stages and you start to really recognize what authentic love and vulnerability, the power and strength of it, it makes you invincible. It really does. And we'll be right back. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50. That's right, $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that

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available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrush spelled try-n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Jada, in reading your memoirs, more. I also loved learning about, there was like a moment in your spiritual journey where you were learning the stories of these like holy women and these unsung heroines. And you mentioned, I just want to say as an aside, I'm a Baha'i. And it was like really thrilling to see Tahoree included. Yeah. We're all Baha'i, by the way. Yeah. So when we saw it's all right. We were so happy. We like, we texted. We're like, oh my God. She like, she like, she knows Tahare's story. It was so sweet

to see that. But I was really curious, like, how learning the stories of these women has impacted your journey. Man, because, I mean, I don't have to tell, but what they have had to endure. Yeah. You know, the level of suffering to really embrace and understand the love of God and trust it, you know, and it's so different, so different than a lot of the male journeys that, that, you know, we have access to. It's so different. And so different. And so the, the journey of the spiritual woman is something that I can really relate to. And I just find it's so inspiring, so inspiring. Penn joked earlier about how therapy can only get you up to a certain point. And you have a line in your book that is almost exactly the same. You say, like, therapy helps.

It got me to 40, but to what end? And we talk about that among the three of us on the show, too, that it can be tremendously helpful, but not some sort of like panacea that can heal all things. And so I wonder what other tools you have come across in your journey in your healing.

I talk about that in the book as well. I talk about ayahuasca. I had an ayahuasca journey. That was really life changing in the most beautiful way. It's one of my favorite plant medicines, as I've also done, and I'm hoping that one day, I've also done MDMA and I'm hoping that

one day that will be approved to be allowed to be used in more therapeutic settings because I feel like MDMA has a way of opening the mind and opening channels in the brain that have been blocked by traumas and false beliefs, that five years of therapy can be done in three days. You know? And yeah, it's like that's been an extraordinary journey for me as well. That's when I really feel like therapy really kicked off for me. It's like I was able to get into a therapeutic setting with MDMA. Because you could just look at real deal stuff, I call it the exot lands within those places we don't want to go to, right?

And you can walk those lands with a smile. You can walk those lands with a smile without feeling the intensity of whatever discomfort, pain, the levels of self-judgment, all of that's relieved. So you can actually, you know, get through all the thorny stuff. and get to the core issue and reconcile it and free yourself. Actually, on that tip, I dabble with a lot of psychedelics in my sort of teens and early 20s. And also ayahuasca, you know, went to South America. I happen to be sober in a place where, you know,

the human capacity is so great that, did we not only have the relationships in our personal lives but the social institutions to support us so that the human reality could flourish and never be so tarnished or if it was tarnished, you know, with all kinds of trauma then, you know, we had so many tools and so much support to overcome and understand

so that we didn't suffer with a level of like, just a base level of self-loathing that is just at least in Western culture, just like, just common. Yeah. You know, my feeling is that these current material tools that we have are not needed. You know, in a future, maybe more spiritualized society, like that they're not, you know, needed. But we're at a time that's so kind of, like, calcified in so many different forms of trauma.

Yeah. That we need something to sort of break it down. And I guess I'm curious. So, you know, you're talking about these tools. you also talk about how much spiritual seeking you did through all the different faiths. I'm curious at what point in your life because you grew up vaguely Christian.

Is that something in your, or no? Yeah, no, it was more, I went to the Ethical Society. Oh, yeah, I went to the Ethicals. In Baltimore. Oh, okay, right, right, right. Yeah. I was just remembering there's, I think there's one in Brooklyn now, too. Probably.

Probably. They're chapters. Yeah. Yeah. And so I grew up. My grandmother was an atheist, but she wanted me to be able to decide if I wanted to believe in God and gave me the education to choose the God I wanted to believe in. Right? And so that was my childhood. So instead of going to church, I went to the ethical society. So I was brought up as a seeker. and so yeah and I just have such a love for spirituality and different aspects of traditions that are around religions yeah at what point did at what age did you start to really explore maybe specifically in a way that you would call spiritual um I think that that was I think that that's been a journey.

Like I thought I was being spiritual when I decided to study the Bible for three years, you know what I mean? From a historical point of view as well as a spiritual point of view, but I recognize that that was all intellectually based because I didn't actually develop a relationship with God through those three years and then I studied the Quran and then I studied the Torah

and then I studied Sufism I mean it goes on and on and on and on and it wasn't until my ayahuasca experiences that I really felt the presence of the great source of the great supreme that I was like aha okay here we go and so throughout the years, it just got more and more, more intense. And I would say once, I would say that my spiritual journey really intensified probably 2018, 2019. And that's when I started going hardcore. Like, that's when I started to, I mean, that's when I went hardcore. I just stripped my life of just, like, vices.

I mean, I went, I went in. And I started, like, having really intense practices, really intense study. And I started to develop a relationship with that I know as the Great Supreme. And not play with it because, you know, it was there and I was still like, oh, I get it, you know, and then finally I was like, nope, now it's time. I'm still reflecting on what you said about, well, Penn mentioned that love is not a popular movement and what you were saying about that universal sort of that lesson. I'm saying like, why isn't love a popular movement?

Because in a way we think of it as like so warm and gushy, but in your book, you connect love to like really sacrificing the ego that you can't love when the ego is so present. And I wonder if that's why it's not popular because it's, really hard to make that sacrifice, especially on a daily basis. Yeah. We're at the end of our time, right? We've got to just ask our final question. If you could go back to 12-year-old Jada, is there anything you would say or do?

I don't think there's anything I would do. Like, I feel like my journey's been really perfect. I don't think there's anything I would say. Yeah. I think that, yeah, I just, you know, the journey's been, you know, it's been rugged, but it's been beautiful. I wouldn't, I'd be scared to say anything to change anything, and then it'd be changed something, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jada, for giving us your time. Thank you, guys.

Yeah, we really appreciate it. It was really nice talking to you guys. Jada Pinkett-Smith's new book, Worthy, is now out wherever you get books, and you can follow her online at Jada Pinkett-Smith. Before you go, I just have to tell you something really quickly. My husband and I, like I said, I'm pregnant, and my husband and I went to go take some pictures in Malibu and we're like trying to catch the sunset we're like rushing down to the beach and we're like in a frenzy a little bit and then we we are taking these photos and someone passes us and says like congratulations YouTube really excited for you and we look up like thank

you and it's Jaden who's your son I know I was like if it's Malibu it's gonna be jaded and Malibu and a sunset yeah yeah all right it was really sweet It was really sweet. I was like, super sweet. My baby's been blessed. Yeah, yeah. He's such an angel boy. So sweet.

Yeah. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. And yes, many blessings to you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Stitcher.