Podcrushed - Jameela Jamil

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

The brilliant Jameela Jamil (She Hulk, The Good Place) stuns the group with her unparalleled ability to flip between painful recollections, deep wisdom, and delightfully wicked humor all in the same thought. Jameela shares about the inspiration behind I Weigh, why she backed out of a chance to star in S4 of YOU, and why failure is her good place (we had to!). You also won’t want to miss the moment Jameela cries out “what the f&$k Penn,” while Sophie and Nava lose their minds with glee. Follow Podcrushed on socials: TwitterTikTokInstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I have a question Okay, well we're rolling. Okay, we're starting. Are we ready? Yeah, this is part of the idea. I want to know if you can tell me about a time in middle school when you lied to your family.

When I lied to my family? In middle school. I remember my mom being amongst the most upset she's ever been when I got the first M&M CD and I don't believe I lied I don't think so I mean I got it and then she knew that I had it and I handed it I just remember handing it to her and as an adult

and you know a parent now like looking back on that time I'm like wow that was a really hard man I was I think she was one of the lowest periods of her life and that was like a that was like just touching the nerve you know it was like it's it's it's it's it's hard to raise kids and and when you feel like there's something that's going to if there's something that you think is is like deleterious to your to your child's well-being and to their sense of self you know their their mental health like it just feel and then of course capitalism standing there just all big and whole and strong

and you can't do anything about it you can't you can't it's so hard to know what to do in the face of that and so I remember handing her the CD did I like lie I probably I might as she might ask me like how I got it and maybe I lied I'm not sure well this is ending up being way more serious

than I thought so sorry please tell your story yeah I'm not going to tell I'll save my adult I didn't lie but I would have lied if I if there was no way that I wouldn't get caught but my sister and I were not allowed to watch 902 and O the original 9-0-2-1-0, but we obsessed with it, like, really wanted to, and my parents had a meeting every,

I don't remember what night of the week, let's say Monday, but whatever it was, they had a meeting the night that 902-1 was on, so we would watch it, but we'd, like, flip to, like, full house or some other, like, you know, safe show, and we would monitor, you could see when the car was coming in, so we'd, like, stand guard and monitor, and if we would see that the car was coming in, we'd, like, switch to the other show. So I feel like that's, like, a long, that was, like, a long-term lie, pretending not to watch this show that we were, that we were forbidden expressly from watching. Did you ever get caught?

I think that we must have, and I think I probably lied. I think at one point my mom must have walked in the room when we were watching, and I don't remember this, but I feel like it's consistent. It tracks and must have been like, oh, I just slipped to it by accident. I don't watch that show. I mean, I knew, like, everything that was happening on 9-2-1-0. Yeah. Okay, well, I don't know about you two delinquents,

but I've never lied to my family. I was a perfect child. Shut up. Why did you ask then? No, but I do consider us here at Pondcrushed somewhat of a family. And to me, that includes, that includes David. And I have who I want to step in for a moment. Wait, so, Sophie, you've never lied to your parents?

No, I have. No, just David. This is the lie I want to come clean on. All righty. To my Podcrushed family, it's time I finally tell you that I'm pregnant. Congratulations. Congratulations. Yay. Thank you.

Wow, that's amazing. So you've been lying to us. Biomission. You've been lying to us. You know, I thought you were pregnant like a month ago and you mentioned having your periods. I was like, I guess not. There was like something happened a month ago. I was like, Sophie's pregnant.

That was the lie, yeah. I knew you were straight out lie. I knew you were pregnant. I knew it. I wasn't fasting and I had to come up with the reason. So funny. I knew. I was going to text you.

Are you pregnant? And then I was like, no, like she'll share it. her own time and then that day you mentioned you had your period yeah oh that's good oh congratulations congratulations that's so wonderful thank you just can't get over being lied to

it's the only lie I've ever told you know what I actually thought I was like well this has been a whole elaborate ploy to tell us that she's pregnant this isn't banter you did like a restart he wants to restart the banter we've just wasted seven minutes unusable well about 12 years from now

you know you're going to have a little middle schooler on your hands that's right hopefully they don't lie to me they will today's guest I don't know how to segue other than taking one joy to another we actually did have a really lovely I don't want to say unexpected but it was just a really lovely time with Jamila Our guest, Jamila Jamil, is an actress, a writer, and an activist who's made a name for herself not just in her creative work, but also through her advocacy work around body neutrality, mental health, and a number of other issues.

So she first rose to fame as a presenter on British television, and then she later became known for, I think, what you're going to know her for. In The Good Place, she played Tahani al-Gamil. So Jamila also has two podcasts. It sounds like she might have more coming out, but she's got two. Two, bad dates, and I-Way. I-Way has become a movement in its own right, challenging social norms and encouraging conversations around mental health and identity. And actually, I should say, Jamila is such a joyful conversationalist. We really went there.

This is a very funny, really lovely episode. That said, we should offer a bit of a trigger warning. We do touch on suicide, abuse, eating disorders. And for those of you who listen with your kids, I know some of you are out there. You got your own middle schoolers and your teenage. Some of the conversation is a bit more graphic than typical, but it's, you know, it's probably nothing they haven't heard. Just beware. We did love having Jamila on. I don't think you're going to want to miss this. So please stick around. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie and I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school besties.

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Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrush spelled try-n-o-m.com. slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waithe. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons

like Felicia Rashad, Loretta Vine, Ava DuVernay, and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season 2 drops July 29th.

Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. So let's start in London. I mean, are you born and raised in London? I was born in London, and then I lived a little bit in Pakistan, I lived a little bit in Spain, and then I ended up back in London until I was 28 years old. We moved back and forth quite a lot

between all three places, basically because we were very poor, and we moved wherever the pound was strongest. So wherever we could get the most bang for us. our buck we would go to like i moved a lot as a child i think we i think i moved 13 different times different homes um a lot of times we would be removed by bailiffs uh who are the people that come i don't know if you have the same term here but they're people who come if you're in so if you're in debt they come and they just take your stuff and so that became like a very normal part of my childhood uh that has led to some slight money trauma now but i can't stop working because i'm terrified

that's ever going to happen to me again. But it was a very kind of disjointed childhood that probably set me up for a career in which I'm rarely in the same place for longer than about three months. I feel you're there. We definitely have some similarities. I'd had a very, very traumatic childhood.

There's a lot of abuse in my childhood and I experienced a lot of other people being abused. I was also raised by a lot of very, very severely, severely, severely mentally ill people. And I was kind of responsible. for them from around the age of about nine years old. So by the age of 11, I totally kind of disconnected and left my body in a way that I'm not sure I've ever returned fully back.

And I knew that academia was like the most important thing in my lineage because we're South Asian as fuck. And if you know any other South Asians, the majority of us have been pressured to do very well at school. And there was a safety in the control I had. over academia and the fact that I could get good grades and I had a scholarship and so I buried my head in my book so much that I feel as though I'd kind of, I became quite numb

and just like a disconnected computer really. Jamila, when you say that at 9 you were responsible, do you mind sharing a little bit what that looked like? How could you as a 9-year-old sort of take that on? I think just, yeah, I think making food making sure people were showering making sure people took medication if they were willing to take medication

stopping people from killing themselves calling the hospital or the doctors if I thought they were going to so it was just it was a lot to take on as a very small kid but you know you're so amazingly resilient as a child that you don't know that that's not normal you don't know that other people's families

aren't like that and you just if you're told that's your job you think that that's your job and so it didn't feel especially hard for me I just felt sorry for everyone else, but that has led to like a pattern of me, always putting other people's needs entirely before my own that I'm trying to now undo as an 85-year-old woman. I mean, you've lived a lot of life, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's what it meant. It meant very literal care, and then I became an official carer in my teens where I was being sort of paid by the state to look after people. And so it was just, it was very intense. I think it's a big part of why I work in advocacy now is that I feel so strongly for other people's needs

probably because I was set up that way as a child and so it very much so resonates with me still. But, you know, what an upbeat way to start the podcast guys. There's another guest we had who likes to start her interviews with... What is it? How's your soul? And are you dealing with your childhood trauma?

Yes. So that's where we're going. That's, you know. And actually, I love what you said about dissociation because it's an important step in everyone's life to realize when and why they become dissociative and to what degree. Honestly, like that's a that's a huge, huge thing. And so I guess like when did you start to realize and be able to look back or was it at the time that you knew like you're basically saying you're out of your body, you know? I, we won't go too deep into it because it'll really ruin everyone's day but I was badly abused as a child

and I remember the exact moment I feel like I made the conscious choice at six years old to leave my body so that it wasn't happening to my body and I feel like that was the exact moment and then I don't really remember how I felt after that I think because I didn't feel anything after that And I didn't really understand how much I haven't been in my body again until I just didn't check in with myself about that until maybe a few years ago. And so I just sort of, it was a conscious choice of I tapped out a feeling anything and then it wasn't really happening to me.

And so it felt like my life, like I was looking at it from the ceiling. I was watching someone else live this life. And I just knew I had to get her to a place of academia or so. where I could get the fuck out of there. And I did. Did you feel like there were any adults in your life that were like a safe space for you or that could be role models for you that you clung to?

No. No, no. So I became obsessed with Hollywood actors and celebrities. And that's like totally obsessed with movies and film. And I feel like I had to do all of my life learning about being quote-unquote normal from film and television. So I watched every waking minute that I wasn't studying, I was watching film and TV.

And I think that's why when it came time to do the Good Place audition, I'd never acted before, but I'd been subconsciously studying television and film my whole life more obsessively than anyone. I knew it was like my hyper-focus. So those, you know, like the cast of friends, you know, were my parents. Meryl was my parent. that's where I had to do a lot of my learning.

And I don't any longer hold that again. I used to look at it as a moral failing when I was younger. And now that I'm at 85, I have started to look upon those people I was raised with with so much more empathy and realize that, God, they really couldn't help it. Like, that wasn't free will. Obviously, abuse is never okay,

but they were dealing with the kind of demons that I, thankfully, can't even understand. and I didn't inherit those same demons and I'm so grateful and I can't imagine what it's like to be responsible for a child or be in the house of a child when you are going through such, like, horrific psychosis.

So I've calmed down a lot about that, but it took me a minute. Yeah, of course. So who were some of these, we can get specific, some of these role models you did have, like these obsessions, these, the relationships you had with,

with you know whatever figure it was I think Whoopi was a big one for me it was mostly comedians comedy was just such it was so able to like elevate me out of wherever I was and it you know it was the dopamine rush of laughter and I think I just looked upon these people as magicians in the way that they could turn my

the little feeling I did have around and they could just transport me and so I think Whoopi Goldbergh Hugh Grant eventually Ricky Jervais and Stephen Merchant with the office and extras I became really really I mean Ted Danson a huge part of it in Cheers so it was so fucking weird to find myself

like come full circle where I'm standing opposite him and we're acting in a scene together and this is a man who's been such a huge figure in my you know my escape as a kid it just felt so surreal being there and a unique kind of yeah I mean the unique kind of

of comic figure he's become since Cheers as well. It's different. I mean, the TED dancer we know now, I think. He's a very different TED Dance from Cheers, right? In the best way, like in the best, almost most unpredictable way. Well, I also think aging allowed him to, like, move away from the sex symbol thing that was quite restrictive to men and women. I don't know if you can relate to that at all, Penn, but maybe one day, maybe one day, but it's...

Clinging to my youth and my perfect skin. So it's constrictive. And I think that once he went past the age of necessarily being like America's sex symbol, he had the freedom to let his freak flag fly. And it's an unreal thing to witness in person. That's amazing. We could have a whole podcast about Ted Danson. We should.

Let's have a spin-off. Yeah, all of us will start a new podcast. You're not hosting in a podcast, Jamila. Yeah, exactly. Jamie. Jamila, I have a question in terms of when your study of performance art shifted into you actually being a performer. I don't know if it started with music or sort of at what age did you know that you had that artistic power within you? I was so stereotypical. I wanted to be a doctor. I had no interest in this industry. And I was an English teacher when I was first scouted by, I wasn't even scouted. I was sort of just, I was sort of just. just told about an audition by this producer who said I should go for it because he thought that I would be good on TV because he thought I was funny.

And I said, no, I would never want to be on television. That's not for me. It's not anything I'd be interested in. And then he said it was £1,000 a day. And I was like, excuse me, what? I'm like, I could be interested. I had no idea that's the kind of money that people were making. And that's almost what I was making in a month as a teacher.

So, you know, given my youthful money trauma, I went straight to that audition didn't really have any expectations I thought I'd probably get a free sandwich out of it and unbelievably having no experience whatsoever got the biggest hosting job in youth television

like for teens in the history of the UK so it was so intense I was replacing this beautiful model and presenter called Alexa Chung and I was a teacher I was a teacher Monday to Friday and then on the weekends

I was live on one of the biggest shows on television. And that was just my, it just happened overnight and I became famous within about two months. And in the UK, it's very easy to become famous because the UK is the size of a very small asshole. I said, cats, anus. And my life changed irrevocably, but completely without plan. So I never knew.

I still don't know what I'm doing. Please help me. Wait, to me that. I'm so curious. Sophie and I were both former teachers. I was a former English teacher and I'm just trying to imagine if one day I was their English teacher

and then a few weeks later I'm super famous like how did they react to you in that transition period? That's the experience you're having right now on this podcast now that I did have a former student be like you shut up on my 4U TikTok page and I was like I'm so sorry

like I would hate it if one of my teachers shut up on my 4U page they found it very surreal very exciting and then boundaries started getting crossed and like suddenly they sort of see me in a new light and one of my male students bought me large array

and I was like, I think this isn't working anymore. Because he was seeing me dress differently on TV and just saw me in a whole new wanking light. So I started to distance myself. But I kept that job for eight months into being like a famous television presenter. I was showing up to school at 8 a.m. Monday to Friday every single week because I was so sure that this was a mistake.

I was like, oh God, they've taken a chance. I did well on the day and they'll work out that I have no talent or charisma and fire me. So because I was so terrified of not having money, I stayed, it was a very odd time for everyone involved. And I think eventually it became like stressful for the school for me to be there because we were starting to develop like lines of kids up on the school coming to find me. So, yeah.

Russell Brand also taught at that school. So I think that they do. Oh my God, it's like a feeder for celebrities. It's just like just for lunatics, I think. You've got to start teaching here, guys. Yeah, I know. All our UK listeners want to know the name of this school. It's Callan.

Callan School. Amazing. That school, I was teaching English as a foreign language, which is an extraordinarily humbling experience. Because, A, the people that you're teaching have been working since 4 o'clock in the morning, and then they're coming to you at midday or at 5 p.m. to learn a language from scratch.

They don't speak a word of English when they come to you. and so you have to teach them everything via only the art of mime which is also in novice self. Yeah, I've spoken before about like the moment that I realized that this was probably not sustainable for my sense of self I was sitting in front of a group of 17 Polish nuns I was having to explain to them via the art of mime why you can't pronounce sitting as shitting.

and so I'm squatting my fist is pretending to be the poo and it's hitting the ground and I was like I can't do this forever I think I think I think I need to find something else to do and you slam the fist on the ground like you actually went for the full drop

you're making a big point you know and you really followed through so I'm commending you from one performer to another But you see all these different things made an actor or made a performer out of me. They took, like, that took all the shame out of me. I could do anything after I've taught a Polish nun to not say shit via the art of mime. It's sort of, you know, I was bred for this accidentally. Actually, everything feels like a step backward.

That's your peak. Jamila, we have a couple of standard questions. They feel silly to ask you now, but just given everything you've shared. We ask every guest three questions about their middle school experience, so if you're game. The first question is an embarrassing story from when you were that age, particularly at school if you have one. I was very badly bullied at primary and secondary school because I was extremely weird. And given my childhood circumstances, I think that's fair, but kids don't know.

Yeah. And I used to stare a lot. I was a starey, strange child in everyone else's defense. and I was socially inept and I have Ayla's Downlaw Syndrome which is a collagen well you don't have enough collagen so it means that I can be very hyper-mobile and I get sick a lot and I fall over a lot

and I would break my bones all the time and so I was on crutches and no one ever used to speak to me and then the most popular two girls in the school were throwing bat mitz for together and I was like oh my God I'm in and they invited me and it had my name on it so I knew it wasn't a mistake

And I was like, Jesus Christ, this is my moment. I'm going to the big, the big dance. And so my mum took me out, and we got an outfit. It was fucking hideous. It was pleather flares, snake skin, pleather, flares. As if I'm a sex offender, you know, from 17. Yeah, but then with like a red crochet, cropped up, and I was like, you know, I was a chubby kid.

So, like, it's like nothing fits right, nothing's the right. size and and I had these big big braces and then she put my hair in like 30 braids and I was like I realized then I think she was cop blocking me and that's fine that's actually how children should be dressed at that age to make sure that they don't get preggers you know at the school dance but I turn up I'm in crutches at the time because I've fallen down the stairs or something and break my leg and I'm I turn up I'm very very nervous I haven't really been to a dance before and the two popular girls come out and they greet me personally Personally, they're like, oh my God, Jamila was so excited to see you.

And I'm like, of course you are, because I'm your new best friend. And they're like, come and dance with us. And I was like, oh, I can't, I'm on crutches. And they were like, no, you can, you can't. You look amazing. Red flag. Red fucking flag, they told me I looked amazing. No, I can't.

I don't think I can bear to hear the rest of the story. I know, I know, I know. So they're like, coming to the dance world. So I'm coming on. And I'm like, hobbling in, hobbling in. No one else is on crutches. And then they bring me into the middle of the dance floor. And everyone's dancing around me.

It's going so well and everyone's being so welcoming and then suddenly one of the girls takes away my crutches. No, no, no. And I obviously fall back to the ground and now I'm just lying in the middle of the fucking dance floor and everyone's laughing at me and pointing and Gen Z would have never done this to me by the way. Gen Z would have helped me up.

It's only these millennial cunts who did that to us. These kids are amazing. They would have helped me up and then started to fucking go fund me. But I was born in the day where you terrorise, someone and you thought it made them stronger so eventually someone charitably went to get the parents and like six parents had to come to get me up

and then they took me outside and I sat on a stoop until my mum came to pick me up so that was embarrassing for me technically but really for them yeah yeah fuck all of them they all live basic lives now you know I do want to speak up for Gen Z I want to speak up for Gen Z here

they're not a monolith guys they're not a monolith there's still plenty of terrible I know, I know but at least they understand what trauma is, at least they have a firmer understanding I feel like they're much more informed. No, it's true.

Also, in the 90s, we were like fed all these like mean girl movies where there was like the really hot mean girl and then the girl trying to simulate and I feel like the new set of movies for Gen Z is like they don't really play on that so just being informed differently. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's constantly changing but I was definitely not the hot mean girl. Which is hard to believe looking at you now because you're stunning. That's extremely kind. But I just didn't I didn't look the way that you were supposed to look in the 90s

and it was heroin chic was in and white was in and South Asian looks were not in and we were not on the covers of any magazines. We were not starring in any movies like, oh look, it was a very, very racist time in Britain. So it's like it was, I desperately aspired to whiteness when I was younger. I desperately clung to like being like,

God, I hope they think I'm Spanish, which is so sad because I come from such a beautiful culture. And I was so tall, you know, like I was five, ten and a half by the time I was like 12 or 13. Like I was so much bigger than the boys. So, so socially odd. So it's just like, I was so bulliable and so therefore it happened. And did it make me stronger? Sure. But could I stand to be a bit less strong? Yes. I love that assessment The other two classic questions that we ask about middle school

and then we'll pivot to your amazing career is can you tell us about your first love and your first heartbreak? Oh, okay, so I didn't kiss anyone until I was 21 which is fairly consistent with everything else I've said and I've still only kissed six people

I keep trying to count Mani Jacinto in the good place but he gets me on camera and it was written into a script so he's told me I can't count that. he's reached out to you personally he's like he's a petition he's had his lawyer contact me and ask me to stop saying it um but um i uh so i was 21 when i had my first like love but my first heartbreak came before i was able to fall in love you know because you you fall in love whether it's required or not yeah uh when you're younger and i think i was so in love with the boy that

worked at my local video store um and i thought i was so cool that you know i used to go several times a day to rent videos within times where I couldn't have watched the film because I was there an hour ago and I thought he was cool and he was totally not wise to it and I was just there casually

and I would hang out for such a long time that it makes me want to jump off my balcony now thinking about it and he was 18 and I was like 14 so I had no right to be bothering him that's not legal it just puts him in a really weird position

and he was so kind to me and would tolerate the fact that I was endless I would walk back and forth, I would find reason to go to the store that, it was like my house was on one side, then the video store, then the supermarket, and I would be, I fucking kept that supermarket in business

just going back and forth a hundred times a day. No one knew what the fuck is going on or how much I must be eating but just to be able to see if he was there. So I feel like he was like one of the first big human loves of my life to the point where I started working at the

video shop even after he left in case he came back, which is so... Wow. So many steps. Stay there for you. Yeah. Wow. He never came back.

I was going to ask. Was it... Like, I can appreciate that it was just a long, slow, dull ache that is the heartbreak. But, like, was there a moment where he either had to address the elephant in the room? No, I saw him with a girl. I saw him with a girl. And I was so crushed. I was so crushed that I feel like I played Nintendo like 16 hours a day

for the entire summer holiday and lost like 30 pounds in heartbreak just because I was like that was it that was yeah that's it's some people do a ZemPEC some people do the Mario and Luigi Diet but it was yeah it was a it was a and I thought it was the great breakup and all the songs that I'd heard were about that and about me and all the movies and I was like that was my one shot for love. And so that was like my first memorable, I lost my mind, break up over someone

I'd never even kissed. And then my first love was all my friends were getting really deeply concerned that I'd gotten to 21 without kissing anyone. And so I got like 20 separate copies of the 40-year-old virgin given to me by friends. And one of my friends charitably kissed me after I turned 21.

And then I really liked it. So I just kept kissing him for like two and a half years. And he was my first love. And he was great. Did it really start as a charity? Was he like, okay, Jamila, you haven't had your first kiss. I'm going to do it? Kind of, yeah.

He was just like, we were sitting on a bench and he was like, we're going to do this now because otherwise you're never going to do it. And it was the best kiss ever because I was an adult and he was an adult. And he was like eight years older than me. So he really knew how to kiss. And it was bloody brink. Couldn't get enough. Became a kissing maniac.

Two and a half years later. I love that. And we'll be right back. All right. So let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk.

How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like, you want your. day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want to get sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting to sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know

that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds been down emotionally, spiritually but I need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly I turned to symbiotica these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and I'm telling you um even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that I use I use uh the the what is it called liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good um comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i think it tastes great i use the liposomal uh glutathione as well in the morning

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We're talking about the silliest, like, parts of dating culture. Like, the most vulnerable extremes we will go to in pursuit of love or sex, fingering, you know. Yeah. All right. Thank you for the clarification. I just want to say. I think fingering is making a big comeback,

and I just, like, I feel like we need more fingering representation. Wait a second. First of all, what do you know? You've kissed six people. I just want to say, I've not, I have my ear to the streets, kids, okay, and I'm telling you, fingering's on its way back. Is your finger on the pulse, so to speak? Yeah, yeah, I mean, never left. Yeah.

No, no, no, so I don't, I actually don't want to, I, it was a joke, but I don't want to shame you at all for the, for the number that you've said. I actually, you know, I'm interested in how a person in your position has said publicly. spoken publicly about, you know, having had a certain kind of romantic and sexual posture, which I think is, you know, to me it's refreshing. I think there's a lot of posturing with a lot of people in our position where you're sort of, I mean, I know that I grew up feeling the pressure to constantly engage and relationships were the place where men go to die, you know, and there's just something I think really nice about what you're saying. So, you know, and I've heard some of the way that you've shared it in different ways.

And, of course, you know, comedy is the best garment to Don for anything, right? But I just feel like... Get to the fucking point. What do you mean? I don't understand. Sometimes... I love you. No, because you joke...

Here's the thing. You joke about it in two different ways. You joke about it. I think sometimes, like, do you carry shame about this? About what? about the low body count. Yeah, and yeah, yes. Yeah, yeah.

I think I feel, I think I feel like I, I don't feel like, oh, no, I want that now, but I do feel like I could have had more fun if I'd been a cooler person. It's the truth. So I feel like I would have liked to, I don't think I've ever been someone who would have enjoyed objectifying myself personally,

but that's also because I have so much deep, like childhood, like sexual trauma stuff. So I think that was never in the, cards for me. You know, I'll still wear the like the little skirt or the busty top, but like occasionally. But generally I feel quite protective of myself in that way. Like I don't do sex scenes. In fact, I was supposed to audition for the most recent season of your show. And the character was supposed to be quite sexy. And I pulled out of the audition because I, I'm so shy about anything sexy that I can't. And then you fucking came out. I was like, yeah, I'm not doing sex scenes

anymore because I'm just going to protect myself. And I was like, fucking hell. I didn't even know that was a boundary that we could draw. That's fantastic. But then I was like, I should have gone and done the fucking show. Season five, Jimmy Litt's hating for you. Season five. You is no longer sexy. It's not a sex show anymore. If you need an asexual character to murder, like you just bring me in.

But I can't even watch sex scenes in films. Like I can't even like not just in the cinema because I'm very worried about what my face is going to do. But I don't think I'm going to start wanking or something. But I just, you know, I just don't know what the right. I don't know what the right face. Exactly. I don't know what the right face would be. But even on my own, I have to fast forward through sex scenes

because I become so shy about watching other people. So it's not a shame. There's just a general, like, I feel there's an awkwardness around it, is what I would say. Yeah, sure. You know what was really interesting when Penn did come out and say, and, you know, shared what his boundary was around sex scenes, Nava and I were really pouring through all of the comments

and there was like a very definite split but there were a lot of people who were in this similar camp as you, Jamila and I feel I'm in that too where they don't enjoy watching sex scenes and actually fast forward through it some people were like I didn't watch season three because there was too much sex

which I thought was interesting it was different from what I expected I felt like I felt that within myself too and didn't feel like many others would probably relate but I think a lot more people feel that way. Yeah, I was surprised there that there was a backlash. I feel like we have not yet evolved to a place where we're allowing men to draw their boundaries

as well around objectification and around sex scenes. Like I saw it happen to the hot chef in Emily and Paris where he was like, oh, I don't love being this objectified and everyone was like, fuck you. You can't say that when you're just the hot chef. You have to be number one. Sorry, hot chef. It was so insane.

And he's such a deep and like, a rounded, lovely person same Lucas Bravo and he had every right to say like, oh God, people are sending me really sexual DMs and I think women had a really unexpected I was very surprised by the reaction

I had the backlash to that where it's like, well then we're not going to support this guy at all and I was like, fuck have you flipped the gender on that? Yeah, if you flip the gender on that I was like that would be a huge societal problem but I think I don't know I think we just haven't, we're still working a lot of shit out socially and I think that that's still an untapped thing

but when you came out with that and there were people who felt very strongly you should be doing sex scenes even if you don't want to for whatever boundary you have around your marriage that was just hilarious to me like it was a bit it was a bit stressful but yeah I'm with you

I'm definitely with you on that can I just say this? I'm keeping track of who's with me yeah he's got it's a short list so far but I've got a few but I was going to say I actually sent pen this article recently Quentin Tarantino and I'd never attract this

doesn't do sex scenes in his movies he had one movie where he filmed one and they asked him about it and he said like one he's never felt that it's necessary to tell the story but two the one time he did it everyone was so tense on set that he just doesn't like it it's so uncomfortable to film and I really like sort of because people I feel like

people in the industry don't like to say that it's a little bit weird everyone's like no it's just a choreography it's just a dance so it's nice to hear some people say like you know it's a little more than that it makes people nervous it makes them stressed totally yeah There's other issues With this film

True But I appreciate what you mean Yeah I'm incapable of holding my tongue So I'm not on Twitter anymore I am interested in what your face would look like In a movie theater watching a sex scene Because while Navajo was asking that question

You were like You couldn't listen to the question Because you heard good to do that So this is so embarrassing That like I've you know I've had to kind of learn how to socially condition myself to seem normal for such a long time and I've actually come up with

a face to make while watching sexy What's funny is that as you said that you started to make a face that made me think she hasn't done this as successfully as she thinks she has I'm gearing up to the face that I've made so like when I'm in a premiere or something it's like a friend's film I can't leave during the sex scene and something so I was like sometimes I get trapped

in a sex scene or a sex scene comes and surprises me in a film that I didn't think it was going to happen. Sure, yeah. So I've come up with this as... And my elbows come slightly up and just like... It has a lot of movement to it. It's the facial expression of, huh. That's happening.

I also like that this is in it. Sometimes this is even in a theater. Yeah, it's everywhere. But the likelihood of someone else looking. at you is low. But I have occasionally looked at someone else during a movie theatre because I'm obsessed of looking at

other people in movie theatres or at concerts because I feel like it's one of the only times you see someone's true essence is when they are looking at something else. They're not aware of themselves. I am clearly hyper aware of myself. But they are like when I, my boyfriend is a musician and I don't watch him when he's

on stage, which is rude, but I watch the crowd because they look at him he's very, very talented and clever and cool well done him and they look at musicians with this like awe of someone's being able to create something that's like elevating them

and they look like little kids like their mouths are slightly open and the glow of the stage is reflecting back on their lights and their eyes are like dazzled and they're not thinking about themselves or their problems and they're not feeling self-conscious

and they're not thinking about internet likes or anything they're just all focused on the same one beautiful thing and I'm obsessed with it so I think because I'm such a creepy you know, stare at, I'm worried that that's going to come back on me and I'm going to make some a weird, pervy face or something,

or I'll look horrified or uncomfortable, so I've settled on, huh. That's interesting. I love that. I think if you make the vocalization, it's less convincing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep the ha internal. Thank you. No, that's really helpful.

As a person who does a lot of voiceless acting, yeah. That's my one note to you. And I know you can take it. You're very talented. I will take that with me forever. Yeah. Okay, I'm glad. this is a sharp left turn but I know about your podcast

I weigh I've listened I really it like really resonates just this idea of your value not being in your measurements and I really I really am like truly like have been positively impacted by the work you do so I wanted to take a moment to thank you

but also ask you like what was an inspiration for really even being so vocal about body neutrality and how that turned into Iway and did you expect sort of the feedback that you've gotten can you sort of walk a through that whole area. Well, no, I mean, like, you know, I was anorexic from the age of about 11 until my 30s, early 30s, and, like, sometimes, like, severely deathly anorexic.

I'd, like, take it as far as I could sometimes. So that was a very debilitating mental illness that has ruined my life and ruined my health, and I'm still not very well because of what I used to do to my body. And so I think I feel very passionately about warning other. and trying to stop others from making the mistakes that I made and because I was so obsessed with celebrities and I was so obsessed with Hollywood actors and fashion models and stuff when I was younger

because they looked like they were normal and they were happy so I wanted to model my life on them and I thought that's what normal was I starved myself and I was the it's not the only reason obviously there was control and all kinds of different reasons why one becomes anorexic and I think a lot of those hit me but he had a big influence on me

what society was telling me I was supposed to look like and what bad role models we had and how they were telling us how to starve ourselves and encouraging it and glamourizing it and calling it heroin chic

and so, you know, once I got into the industry and I was in the belly of the beast and I was like, fucking hell and I saw all the secrets and I was allowed behind the curtain and saw all the lies and the Photoshop and the nonsense

and the misery of these women that I thought was so happy all this time I was like, someone's got to fucking tell people that this is horseshit that we're starving ourselves for a lie, we're selling a lie. And so very early into my career I started to speak out about this and speak out about the beauty standards and the body standards and fat phobia. But no one really listened to me because it was pre the Me Too era. Post Me Too, we suddenly wanted to hear what especially women had to say

and what celebrities had to say. And that's had mixed results with certain, you know, celebrity advocacy. including myself. I've been a mess sometimes. But suddenly, once I was on The Good Place, everyone started listening to me as if not only had I never said this before, whereas I'm on tape saying this shit, like in 2013, 2014, but they acted like no one had ever said it before. So suddenly I was hailed as the inventor of the body positive movement, which is not what I was. I was just someone who'd been speaking about this for like a decade and was very concerned

that people were going to end up as anorexic as I had been. And so I just kind of got elevated above all these other activists who'd been fighting in this space for a long time and then just tried to, I've just tried to navigate my way to make the most of the platform I have without stepping on other people and taking away from their work. And that's a very fine line to walk because we just don't listen to the marginalised.

We listen to the privileged, talk about the marginalised, right? So we don't listen to the poor when they talk about being poor. We blame them, we say they're lazy, they don't have enough work ethic, but we'll listen to Russell Brand, talk about the fact that there's, a disparity, the wealth gap. We won't listen to me when I was fat talking about the fact that there's a fat phobia in this industry.

They said I was just lazy and jealous of the thin TV presenters. And then suddenly when I was slim again, everyone's listening to me like I've never said these words before and like I have the right. And so it's a really tricky, fine line to walk

of wanting to make sure that the conversation gets had because you really get not to quote Eminem too often, but you only get one shot. And you can't miss this chance to blow the opportunity to come to something like to. I mean, so many people have said

you've only got one shot. You chose to quote Eminem. I know. It felt right. It felt right in the moment. I mean, the way that Eminem lyrics live in my brain without my wanting them there,

like constantly. He turned me against Moby and Moby's fine Like he seems like a nice vegan man He made some great songs in the 90s But I'm like What was it? You too old let go blow me

Nobody listen to TECNO And like Yeah So let's go Just give me any signal I'll be there With a whole list full of new insults It's been dope

Suspensful of a pencil Ever since prints himself into a symbol Yeah You see what I'm saying? Yeah Amazing I didn't have to think about that for a second It was crazy

I even wondered as I started Is this going And I was like no it's there It's still there He has to take time to remember his kid's name, but I'm in the lyrics. Yeah. But yeah, I, anyway, I don't remember how we got on this. I'm sorry.

Yeah, so no, so I, you know, so I'm just like, I've still been walking that line. I am inexperienced as a public speaker. I'm inexperienced as a famous person at this level. And so I have made mistakes, but I have also decided not to demonize myself for those mistakes the way that other people, especially like other women on the left, like white women specifically seem to have like a big problem. if I make any mistakes. I've decided to be fuck up representation, right?

We need representation of people, especially women, especially minorities, who have the right, who reserve the right to make innocent mistakes and learn from them and come back. We cannot dispose of people the second they fuck up, especially women. Like, we cannot continue to hold women up on this, like, perfection pedestal.

And so I have made mistakes. I am fallible. I am uneducated. Like, I was so mentally ill that I didn't have time to learn about other people's rights because I was trying to kill myself for like the first like 20 fucking eight years of my life. And so I've learned late. I'm coming to the game late. I'm doing my best. I'm scrapping in before I'm a perfect doctor of anything. And everyone's just going to have to fucking deal with

that because I'm going to keep trying to help people in the way that I can. And we have to encourage people to learn because when we make mistakes neurologically, that is when we do our best learning on like a scientific level is when you know a mistake, you see a mistake and you acknowledge that mistake, that's when your brain goes, ah, okay, don't do that again. If we make people terrified of making mistakes in the first place, and then we make them too scared to even acknowledge them, because we almost pile on harder once they acknowledge their mistake, we're going to stop people from actually learning and therein where, well, and therein lies, I guess, the contradiction of like, what is the point of activism if we don't actually believe

people are capable of change. Yeah. And so that's what I think. For the uninitiated, Jamila, What is the difference between body neutrality and body positivity? So I couldn't do body positivity. A, body positivity is a whole movement that is for people who live in bigger bodies, as I once did, and people who have disabilities who get medically and societally discriminated against. And so it's about them having to love what society actively hates. For me, body neutrality felt more appropriate, especially as a slimmer person, where it's like, I can't do body positivity.

from the fact that's not a movement for me, I can't look in the mirror and be like, I love my body, I love my thighs, I love my stretch marks or this, that and the other. Because I'm then still thinking obsessively about my body and I'm not thinking about shagging or snacks or my job or my dreams or my mental health. I'm just thinking about this like vehicle

that's supposed to carry me around to all the fun I'm supposed to have in my life. And so I just decided, you know what? I'm just not going to negotiate with it at all. and I'm not going to have a full-length mirror in almost anywhere in my house. I live with many roommates, so we have to have one because they're still actively dating

and they need to make sure there's not like come on their trousers or something. But, oh God, sorry. Is a mirror the only way? I mean, but don't think about trousers, you can just go like this. This is a look I can teach you. It's just like this. That's good. That's good. You're teaching me so much.

But anyway, I just, I just, I just don't want to think about it at all. So I was like, you know what? I'm not going to try and love you, but I'm also not going to hate on you. I'm just going to let you go. I'm going to try to exist in the space of neutrality of like, it is what it is. I might not like it because my head has been fucked by societal standards that don't make any sense and are so unfair.

But rather than try to push my brain too far, just getting to a point of neutrality is already such a win. And now I have so much more time in the day. I've become a more interesting and more educated, like a, a better friend, a better lover, like now that I'm just not thinking about it at all. So love or hate either way, I feel like I'm wasting my personal thought on this shit. And I have the privilege of doing so because I'm not in a body that is actively being punished all the time. Body positivity, I understand why they need to do that.

But for those of us who don't, I find neutrality, regardless of your size, can be very helpful because it just sets you free because it's a capitalist prison thinking about all the different things. that you're supposed to fix on your body that was never broken. Yeah, I love that. Bye. All right, well, it's nice to have you on. I'm having a really nice time. I know, we are.

You're so delightful. Me too. I mean, here's the thing, you talk about a capitalist prison. I mean, can we just take a second to reflect? Like, what you just said a lot? And I love this. I love silence, and here's one thing that does not sell ads. Silence.

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Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrush spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Thanks for sticking around. Jamila. Babe. I mean, so what's next for you then? I mean, you know, you've actually, you have, you have answered questions within questions, and I mean, you just weren't prepared. What are, what are you excited about right now? I mean, so I guess I'm going to be asexual in season five of you.

Yes, we're all excited about it. You just cast me in front of everyone. I don't know what I'm going to do next and that's always been what's exciting about my life is that I have no idea what I'm going to do next I have no idea what my limitations are to mixed results I don't see limitations for myself

I just kind of feel like I've spoken before about the fact that I have a very interesting relationship with failure in that I love it I run towards it really I mean so as you're experiencing it I mean are you like okay this is failure and this is like I like it yeah yeah not in like yeah like it doesn't you know um arouse me but it uh it definitely stokes a fire in me where i'm like failure is where i have the funniest stories failure is

where um my friends enjoy my day the most uh failure is where i learn the most and it's it's always been in the periphery of failure that i found something magical about either myself or life where i was like oh i can't do this but i'm actually kind of good at that i'm going to go off and I'm going to go off and do that for a bit. And so I think there's something really cool about failure. I think there's something very noble about running towards failure when success isn't guaranteed. And I think we are, especially as women,

but generally people, we are so encouraged against that. And especially because our lives at all, whether you're famous or not so much more public than they used to be, you don't feel like you have the space to try and fail and be vulnerable in the way that you did when I was growing up. And I really want to promote being willing to embarrass, yourself because it's very rare that you die from it. Very, very rare. It is, the chances are you'll grow and learn and find something really interesting. I never planned on being a TV

presenter. I never planned on being a radio DJ. I never planned on having a podcast or being a writer or being an actress. All of this came because I put myself in a room that I didn't belong in and I very much so treated imposter syndrome like a wedding, you know, where it's like I've crashed a wedding and before anyone kicks me out, I'm going to, you know, kiss who I can. You're going to get married. And I'm going to get some cake and then I'm going to fuck off. And so that's, I treat my whole life as like, as a wedding that I've crashed and I refuse to negotiate with imposter syndrome.

I'm like, you know what? The voices in my head, they're right. Maybe I don't belong here. But fuck it. Yolo. Yeah. You're talking about seeing failure as an opportunity to live. learn which is very brave i think it's like that's not it's not common so i'm just wondering where

you think that unique kind of of outlook or courage came from i think it's not confidence i think it's just uh um what is it a bankruptcy of fucks to give you know like i i i think it's it's not that i think i deserve or can do anything i just i'm up for the adventure i've been through so much by such a young age and I came out of it alive. All the things that they tell you you won't survive or find your way out of. I thus far have. You know, I've scraped my way out and I've been very damaged by a lot of it, but I'm still here and I'm still able to see the fun and the joy and the laughter in life. And so I feel like, well, fucking hell, I survived all of that, including like being publicly shamed, which is a woman you're like told to kill yourself

if anyone disapproves of you. Like I have been through all of that abuse, all of that trauma, all of this shit, all those heartbreaks, everything that I thought, you know, was going to end my capacity for happiness, didn't. So now I'm just like, well, fuck it then. I've been fearmongered for a lot of my life about a lot of things that actually were quite survivable. And so I'm going to just make the absolute most of everything.

You know, I've suffered way too much for someone so young. And now I'm on like a determined, like, adventure for pleasure. You know, I feel like, you know, I don't want to have kids. And it's because I feel like I've raised a bunch of people. I've been a mother since I was nine years old. They are all okay now. So I feel like they've all fucked off and gone to college and gotten married in my head.

And now I'm like in my Diane Keaton era. You know what I mean? I'm wearing linen. I'm wearing linen right now. Yeah, I'm 805 years old. I'm wearing linen. I wear linen all the time, guys. And I feel like that's what you do

when your kids are grow up. Because you can't be bothered to steam stuff. Why would I steam stuff? I've raised a bunch of people. And now I just want to have fun and adventure. and I want to make a difference where I can, but I don't want to be remembered for it. I'm not interested in legacy.

I just, I want to, I really want to experience it all because so much of it has been taken away from me just because of my gender. I've been told, this isn't for you, that's not for you, this isn't for you, that's not for you, and also because of my race. And actually, that was all bollocks, and I'm doing it all, and I'm living it all, and sometimes I fuck it up. But I'm trying, and I'm here.

And I hope that can be some source of inspiration for someone else who feels. like they're not allowed. Like I am your reminder that you have permission to try, get messy and enjoy yourself. So I really like this. I have a nice segue here. When you said you have a bankruptcy of fucks with which you might give, you missed an opportunity to quote Eminem. I just don't give a fuck. I mean, it's classic, classic. So I just want to note that. However, I also think that what you're I mean, this is the thing about not giving a fuck, which I, it's, it's, it's in, obviously we know the spirit in which it's said when it's a positive thing, meaning, but I think it's akin to a spiritual perspective. You're realizing, I don't have anything to lose, I only have something to gain, which is to say you have a belief in gaining something. And so to me, that, that extends to what we could call spiritual perspective. I'm just curious, growing up with the background that you have, did you have? Did you have? Did you have? have any kind of spiritual like like what no no no i'm barren i'm barren can't meditate can't do anything

yeah yeah i can only like the only time i can still my mind is when i can possibly clean my kitchen but i um get nothing there's nothing going on up here there's nothing like i well for the second time today thank you so much for coming yeah i'm so sorry no i don't have a spiritual journey i do have a very pragmatic uh way of looking at the world um and i i see uh societal norms is very arbitrary and they don't really make a lot of sense. And I think a lot of my work with social justice is not because I've got such a big bleeding heart and I want to help everyone and I feel so much empathy. A lot of the times I don't feel very connected to anything, but I don't think it makes sense. Social injustice, inequity, inequality just doesn't make sense and I want to fix it because it's broken and it's

not fair. So I think it's more that I just don't think it's my responsibility, especially not just because I'm a woman, that I should be liked or approved of or believed. or obedient. It's ridiculous that I should have a different set of standards to live by. And so I just don't have, I've never had a personal interest in really, in being liked or being popular. And I think that probably comes from the fact that I just wasn't when I was younger. So maybe that normalized me to the fact that I would be disapproved of in my life or I would

be otherized. And I just, I'm here for me, and maybe that sounds selfish, but I'm here for my own personal experience. I'm not a billboard for other people to project their bullshit onto and I and I'm only really like I've only really given my myself permission to be like that since I was about 26. I'm in like year 11 of this experiment of like well if I just stop trying and I just am myself and I show my ugly and see who loves me for me and it turned out some pretty great people stuck around and and that feels so much. much better than all the people who loved me when I was wearing a mask, you know. So that's what happened. Jamila, you've kind of famously called out other celebrities, including the Kardashians,

for practices that you think are harmful to youth. And I'm wondering, have you ever bumped into them and what was that like? I have bumped into them at parties before, but we don't really talk and that's probably for the best. I really don't like hate them as people. I think that they are. I think that they are victims of the system and victims of our society, but I do think they have a responsibility

to not then recycle that pain and trauma that they've been into and then traumatise and exploit other young people. So I've just, I'm all about the logical, ow, oh, it's hit my hand so hard. Sorry, I'm all about... You're raising your fist in the air? Yeah, yeah, exactly. on my crusade, on my...

I was just climbing up to my soapbox and I injured myself, sorry. No, I just don't think it's correct or fair for us to take the harm that was done on us when we were younger and then replicate it for profit later because then we're just carrying on a cycle

that we know exactly, we know literally how harmful it is. I'm the same age as most of them and I know what they grew up in and then I watched them grow up and I was a huge supporter of them and they were getting body shame to fucking death So of course they are the way they are, but you don't then turn around and make money and then encourage more of that and take that beauty standard that almost like, you know, that hurt you so much and then impose that on other people and then make loads of money from it. I think that's just not ethical. And so I really like honestly my heart goes out to them and most of my life and still now have tremendous empathy for those women. I can't imagine their existence, but also we have to draw a line at which we excuse people just because they've been through trauma. And so that's how I feel.

I hold myself to that very same standard, you know, and I've had plenty of opportunities to exploit beauty standards for money. And I have had to turn down. And it's not like, oh, I'm so great. It's just that I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Like that in a 12-year-old in the crutches and the snake skin pleather trousers

is watching me all the time. And I never stop thinking about her. And she would hate me so much if I go and take that poison and put it back in. to the world. I have to find a way to purify it. And I'm trying to do that with the truth. The best way I know how, I'm not better than anyone for that. I just, I know what it's like to lose 20 years of your life to anorexia. And only 30% of people ever fully recover from it,

which is such a low percentage, given how many of us are now struggling with body image. And it can kill or destroy the life of another 30% and 30% of people would sort of just kind of exist within it. And it's such a life ruin. It's the number one cause of death. any mental illness. It's not taken seriously enough. And it's growing. We are at the highest numbers we've ever seen in it. So it's just such a pointless way to lose your life. And if I can help people avoid that the way that I did it, you know, I'm the, like, I fucked up so you don't have to. I'm the, like, I'm the piece of shit that I made earlier, you know, so that you don't need to make all my mistakes. And while you can't download your mistakes into other people's

brains. I can at least try to warn people, you know, not to go down into the basement of diet culture in their underwear. I think what you'd be capable of if you could still your mind for just a moment. Sorry. You know? Jamila, you said something on a talk show once that really stuck with me. Was it anything's a dildo if you're brave enough? You know, it wasn't that one. That was my second choice. No, you said, I forget who it was, but you were talking about Photoshop in the industry and how you will,

I think it was for She-Hulk for the poster, you asked them to remove the Photoshop that they had done because not just... Oh no, you're talking about, they didn't Photoshop my She-Hart poster, you're talking about the good place where they took my back fat out of the photo and I was like, put my fucking Bat-Fat back in.

Yeah, and the reason you gave was because then it makes it harder for you to look at yourself. Like you then see, you think that's what you look like And then when you look in the mirror, you become unhappy. But because it's not a realistic, it's not you. No, it made me feel disappointed in my back. And I was like, fucking hell. I've already, like, I've already been working on my, you know, my neck, my pussy and my crack.

Like, I can't also think about this. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, I'm already just trying to get through the fucking day alive. Get out of an Uber unraped. You know, like, I can't be worrying about back fat. Like, Jesus Christ. Like, abortion rights are being taken away. Like, don't put this on me.

Like, you've imposed your standard of what you're disappointed about. my body on me so I was like put my back fat back in it was like 19 emails back and forth until I managed to get my and it was such a stupid tiny crusade that I went on but it was for my own self so that I could see a billboard I could see back fat little girls can see back fat I made them always keep my stretch marks on my tits because I got tits very young so I've got big stretch marks right up them and I never wore makeup on them because I need us to be okay with this shit because the person who suffers most when you Photoshop yourself is you because you compare yourself to an AI image

and there's no fucking way. So regardless of whatever we say about the responsibility that we have to young people who look at us, which obviously I care about, it fucked your brain. How are you supposed to compete with this ex-Mahina level like perfection?

That's why everyone's like surgery is soaring and everyone looks the same now. Yeah. It's really weird. It's like everyone's got the same one evil surgeon. I know. It's true. As a personal aside, I also have stretch marks

right all the way up my boobs. And I remember one time seeing something on my Instagram Explorer page like Jamila Jamil, post a picture showing her stretch marks on her boobs which that is also wild that there's like media outlets that are posting that. But I remember going and like searching

and like zooming in and feeling so... Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I did. This is the one context where that's not weird at all. Yeah. And it's empowering. For the first time. silent right now i just exclaimed i am otherwise silent continue i remember that feeling i remember

that moment so viscerally and i think what you're saying is true it's not only important for you to be able to see yourself how you actually are so that you don't develop this warped perception but it's so it's so impactful on so many people that you have no idea i remember the exact moment or I was like, am I going to do this or not? Which is that the makeup artist, the good place, just naturally went without pause or without speaking to me to put a makeup sponge on the top of my breasts to cover up my stretch marks.

And I looked in the mirror and I had this, and this doesn't happen to me very often, by this crazy flashback to looking in the mirror at 12 years old when I swear I got boobs like overnight. I woke up one day and when smet marks, when stretch marks first appear, they're dark red. they eventually become like light or whatever

but it looked like I had like track I didn't even know what the fuck they were it looked like I had someone had like clawed me up both of my breasts and I stood there sobbing in the mirror because I didn't understand what happened and I was like oh my God I'm ruined my body is ruined this is so I look like I've been attacked by Wolverine like I and how much that scarred me

and it really really impacted me and I you know impacted the way that I dress for years and I was transported back in time 30 years to that moment or 20 years to that moment. And I was like, no, don't cover these up. Please don't cover these up. I want these out for the whole show. I was always in low-cut tops as Tarnie.

And I was like, I actually can't do it for her. This bitch is following me around everywhere. I cannot get rid of the 12-year-old. She is always in my head. I've got a gun to my head all the time reminding me of everything she went through, which just keeps me, you know. Keeps me on track. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I just thank you. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate that. On TikTok, there was like a filter called AI glam bot that went really viral. And I'm like barely on TikTok. I mostly post videos of my dogs to like Taylor Swift songs. And like once in a while I'll make a TikTok. And I like tried the stupid filter.

I never try them. And for like four days, I couldn't stand looking at my face on Zoom. And I was thinking like I'm like a woman in my 30s. Like imagine if I'm like a 12 year old using this. Yeah. So I was like, I'm never going to use my gun. I think, like, tin hat, I think plastic surgeons are the ones, like, investing in these fucking caps. Because they're the ones who make the money.

Probably. I think, do, do, do, do, do. Yeah, because people will go in and say, I want to be, I want to look like myself. They'll take a picture of themselves with the filter. Yeah, because the filter is just like, this is what you look. Like, if your nose is a little bit trimmer, if your brows are a little bit higher. Yeah. A lot of my friends are guys, and they have become, their brains have become conditioned to the way that women look on social media.

Again, it's not just celebrities like Photoshop and FaceTune and everything is, you know, and diet culture is that kind of democratized that sort of aesthetic. And it's sort of like some of them have had to come off Instagram or stop watching porn because their brains are being like morphed where they're meeting people that they really connect with. But their brain, their like dick brain is being like, no, this isn't the thing that we've become used to seeing. And so it's getting in the way of their romantic, like their meaningful romantic lives. It's not to say you can't have a wonderful romantic life for someone who looks, you know, like the way that a Victorian secret model can look.

Lots of them are married happily with babies. But my point being that it's not fair for your brain to be so manipulated. And I think we demonize men sometimes for having a standard that just like we're seeing it and we're conforming to go and like, yes, that is perfect, that is what I should be. They are seeing so much of that. Like it's fucking all of us up. And we're seeing also like men develop. more mental health issues around aesthetics

are really bad within the gay community, like the body standards, and everyone feeling they had to have muscles. Like, I was trying to help pass a bill just before the pandemic, then it kind of got a bit pushed back, but that was talking about the materials that are in diet products or fitness products

that a lot of kids are taking. And so they were putting things like speed or laxatives in the weightless products that mostly girls were using and they were putting Viagra and heavy metals in a lot of the muscle gain products that young boys are taking, trying to get this, like, perfect Marvel aesthetic. But the body standard thing is just fucking us all

in these very unique and plentiful ways, and we need to be so mindful of it, and this has to be, like, not a gendered war. This can't just be women fighting against this, because they've run out of real estate on our bodies, like back fat, elbow fat, armpit, wrinkles. like we've really like there's no

there's not an inch left to pinch anymore for capitalism so we've moved on to men's bodies and we need to just stop this rock together because it's wasting so much fucking time and money and life quality and the funny thing is that some people do it because

they think that more people will want to shag them that's what I did when I was starving myself I was like if I look more like a model more people will want to date me and the truth is I was so tired and my estrogen was so low I didn't fuck anyone for years. Not for years.

So that's why. So, that's why. Yeah. You're just too tired. Actually, no. Actually, no. 6 p.m. roll around. You're like,

in my 20s, between like the age of 24 to 27 when I was like on the cover of like Vogue and like the face of Mabeline campaign, this and the other. It's like I, those were I thought would be where I looked according to me, my most fuckable. And I did not have sex with any.

I didn't hold anyone's fucking hand during those three years. because I was exhausted. That makes sense. I was so tired. I was so hungry. I was so weak. It was the last thing on my mind.

So the hilarity is we do all these things to look in a way that's going to make more people want to date us. Then we don't have the energy to date them. We just want to go home. Jane Fonda recently talked about she had bulimia for a number of years. And I'm raising this because I'd never thought about it until she said it and now you're saying the same thing or something similar. And she was saying that those years she couldn't hold a relationship

because she had a secret life. Like she was so ashamed of it. So she couldn't bring anyone in. But she was starving herself. because she thought men wanted her to be quite thin. And sort of like, it's so interesting that you think you're doing it for one reason, and then it alienates you from that very thing that you're trying to achieve. Yeah, the bouncer I've been in my life, the most X I've had.

So I don't know what the correlation is. I haven't done the maths, but it seems to not be like a finite rule. So that's good. We have a final question that we ask. I want to ask it, but I also want to give anybody a chance if there's any other questions before that. Or if you're doing like a mind movement? Is there anything you want to plug, Jamila, before we...

Yes, so I've decided to address the fact that we have made exercise a part of diet culture as a society and people only work out a lot of the time even if they say it's for their mental health, generally it's like in the hopes of weight loss or body goals and that's fine and you do you. But when we look at exercise only as this kind of punishment for eating and only as this thing that's going to ascertain us

these kind of long-term goals, you know, we are an instant gratification generation and waiting for abs or waiting for the £100 or £20, whatever weight loss takes a really long time and a lot of discipline and so then people end up bowing out altogether and they feel like gym clothes are made for skinny people the fucking like bra tops and the tight leggings that are so thin and lemon coloured so you can see your clitoris through them like

it's like again if you want to wear them do it but that's quite alienating to a lot of people I don't want to wear that shit when I work out I don't want to look in a mirror when I'm working out I don't want to work out for a long-term body goal because then I'll lose the will. And we don't ever talk about the endorphins and the vital hormonal balance that comes from it.

The vital glucose balance, the sleep, the stress reduction, the instant benefit you get after doing exercise. And it doesn't have to be the strenuous, like, formative weightlifting, the perfect form. There's any exercise you can do. If we can just bring people back to joyous exercise, then we could change people's lives. Like I think medication is amazing,

but I have massively lowered my medication when I'm walking every day and when I'm dancing around my house and when I'm doing really like in inane, stupid, unattractive shit in baggy clothing, my life exponentially, like, increases in joy and peace and stability and well-being. So I'm bringing back moving for your mind where we're taking the body out of it and we're just like, fuck the body.

Let's just do this all for our brain for instant results. And so on Instagram, I'm promoting this now. We're finding trainers around the world who don't do anything to do with fat shaming when it comes to exercise and we're going to be hosting an event this summer in Los Angeles, then we're going to take it hopefully around the world. And we are going to democratize exercise.

We are leaving so many people out and it is damaging their lives in ways that are so much more important than the aesthetic. And so I feel like having had an eating disorder for so long, I know what the triggers are enough that I feel as though I'm ready to take on the responsibility of trying to reframe exercise. And if anyone wants to get involved in L.A.,

how could they do that? Is it open? Just follow me on either at I-Way, which is my mental health movement account or follow me on Instagram, and we're going to be talking about it all throughout May. Okay, cool. And that's where you'll be able to find out more details.

Exciting. Thank you. But yeah, for people with disabilities, pregnant people, people in bigger bodies, what are we doing? Why is the word exclusive a good thing? Leaving people out has become... It makes us such bastards

that we've turned that into, like, a good word. I really, really, really passionately feel like it's so stupid to leave so many people out. It's also not even good for business. It's ridiculous to leave it for like 10% of the population. Everyone needs to be moving. We just have to be moving for the right reasons. Amen.

All I heard was that you're doing this for money. I just rant. So let's go back to the 12-year-old Jamila pointing a gun at 30s, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's locked and loaded. Yeah. She's watching your every move.

She's watching your every move. What would you say to her if you could go back? I mean, I guess she's right there, but let's pretend you had to travel a distance at a time. You know, what would you say to 12-year-old Jamila? I'd say I'm so sorry that I didn't advocate. for you the way I advocated for everyone else my entire life. I'm so sorry that I wasn't your best friend when you needed one. And that was the first person I should have stood up for.

That was the first person, not just against other people, but against the voices in my head. Like I'm so, I've really, I really let her down and I left her on her own while I was trying to save everyone else. And it only left me emptier for those around me later on. And so I'm trying to restore that now. But my, my biggest hope for people who follow my work as they learn that you have, like anything you wouldn't tolerate being said to someone that you love, you must not allow yourself to say those things to you. You have to protect that because it will decimate you later in ways that like there's so much shrapnel to try to collect that it's so not worth it. So as young as you can, start sticking up for yourself and be your own

best friend. That was a massive mistake of mine. Love that. Thank you. Amelia, this has been so delightful. Yeah, really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. I feel like 12-year-old me will be like, there were some things you shouldn't have said on that podcast. We'll have a word after this. You can listen to Jamila's podcast, I-Way, or bad dates,

wherever you stream your podcast. You can also follow her mental health advocacy work at I- underscore Way. And you can follow Jamila personally at Jamila Jamil. Are you aware of the frame for our show, the frame work, the time of life? Maybe I spoke to the project. I'm vaguely aware. I have not yet listened to it, so I'm terrible. No, no, no.

All good. But I also find that quite exciting. Like, it makes it more exciting. It's a thrill. Yeah, there is a frame. You know, I actually can. It's a porn. In that way, it's a little bit like your new podcast.

We're going to send nudes in about 10 minutes. Right. Stitcher.