Podcrushed - James Scully

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

**This episode of Podcrushed was recorded prior to the SAG-AFTRA strike.** Today we're joined by James Scully, the actor you may know from shows like Titans and Heathers, or from characters like Forty Quinn from Penn's show You. Coincidentally, James just so happened to be taught by Nava when he was in ninth grade. Yes, that's right -- Nava was James Scully's teacher when he was in high school. James shares his favorite memories from Nava's class, gets candid about growing up as a theater kid in Texas, and recalls his favorite moments working alongside Penn on set.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonado Speaking of time traveling back into your earlier self, it's almost like that's what happened that a future, very vindictive version of me jumped back into my body and was like, okay, we got to speed the character development up on this. Because I looked at Mason, and I would say that, I probably said this to you a dozen of times on set.

I just looked at Mason was like, should we make out? You did it, actually. What is in fifth grade? Funny, funny. That is a very funny. Yes, yes. Did not land. In fifth grade, obviously, yeah, everyone was horrified.

Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties, flinging tampons at the wall. I'm glad I wasn't the only one. I'm so pleased to announce to our listeners.

Hopefully we'll be benefiting. Hopefully you can feel the. charge. Energy. Nav and Sophie are in the studio. They're in New York City. Well, not normally, but I'm often in L.A. I've been to L.A. recently. They're here. They're in my home turf. I have the home advantage. Nava, Sophie, you had a terrible time getting here. Do you want to walk us through it, so? Oh, it was so bad. So we flew from L.A. to New York. New York had terrible weather, and flights just kept getting

delayed the days before. I knew because I had a friend who was flying to New York. And we got up the morning of our flight. Are you going to start with waking up? I know. I've got to get to the interview if that's how this is going to go. Okay. Cut to the chase. Okay. So we get on our flight. Okay. It's fully packed. Oh no. One person's even told that they might have to sit in the flight attendant seat. Was it seriously? Yes. That should be illegal. We're in the air. As flights to. JFK has blocked arrivals because of the crosswinds.

Our captain gets on the PA and he tells us we are going to have to circle. We circle for an hour and 45 minutes. After having flown across the country. And I corroborated this with the other two people who were my friends on the flight, Sophie and our friend Camelia. Every time the pilot was making an announcement when he was getting to something that appeared to be bad news, he would do this. He would be like, so, passengers, I have an update for you because it's, we can't actually it was like he would get really muffled

and just like not share the bad news so the landing is actually instead of taking 10 minutes of landing we're like is he doing this on purpose he's just muffling all the bad news and not it was like not audible so we find out we have to divert the plane

to Pittsburgh to refuel because we've been circling too long and we still have no way to get to JFK they're not accepting flights we're in Pittsburgh for who knows how long Camelia our friend asks the flight attendant because she's at the very

back of the plane. And she says, how long do you think we're going to be there? They said, hopefully we leave today. Wow. We had interviews to get to. We were the most important people on that plane. Obviously. My least favorite part of that

story is when you, the part you didn't tell, which was you were eating at one in the morning. And then just as a, like, I, I, I, I, we landed in JFK at like 9.40 p.m. We were supposed to land at 5.40. And then we did not leave the airport. between the lift and the, like, the cab didn't depart JFK fully until midnight.

It was just two hours to exit. It was the rain. The rain, there was a freeway that was closed. A freeway that was flooded and just closed off. I mean, I was here for that rain. It was that bad. Apparently. So Nav and I got to our hotel past midnight.

We found the one place that was open. We had to convince a security guard to let us into the mall because it was actually locked. And down in the basement, there was one lone. restaurant serving takeout, and we ate at 1 a.m. This is what we're willing to do. We're literally willing to fly through a storm for you guys, pod crushers. Well, I was going to say, let's lower the bar a little bit. If you had known that that was going to happen, you'd be like, oh, no, I'll just fly tomorrow.

I said to Nabble. Why are we doing this? No, I would have said I'll do anything for the pod crush listener. Anything, sure. Let's get to our guest. Today we have James Scully, who played the iconic 40 Quinn on season two of my show, You, and most of all, biggest, he's here today. That's right.

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Hello, listeners, and welcome to Podcrust. That sounds pretty good. I love it. I was doing a... Are you? You-ish? Yeah, it was. You-ish, you-adjacens.

Not that that's the only cultural art that we can interact predicated on. We can talk about other stuff. But we will gas them up. No. We can't interrupt about that. We have stipulations. I need to get paid more if we're going to cite other cultural phenomena. Okay, great.

I've only watched the pilot episode. Because we actually, that's fun. I had never, and everyone was like, so you've watched Gossip Grow White? And I was like, I haven't actually. And once I booked this job, I was like, I don't want to watch 12 seasons of Penn being, what was, Dan Humphrey? Dan Humphrey. Teenage girls all across the country are like, this fucking hat. How are he on the show?

You can cuss on the show. It's about kids, not four kids. It's like I just cussed in front of my. I meant to ask beforehand. Well, no. You know, we're all nice people. Anyway, not that cursing makes you not an nice person. Take two.

But I hadn't And then afterwards Truly we wrapped our last Like photo call And we all went to Carmella's house Who played Delilah And we watched the pilot episode

Of redacted Redacted for compensatory reasons And I was like Oh no No I'm fine Not which is nothing against The show

show and the brilliance of what is inarguably an iconic. I mean, we're in the middle of the reboot. But I was just like, yeah, it's too fresh. I need to wait like three years and revisit this. And then COVID happened. I just haven't gotten around to it. Honestly, all I can think about when I think of Gossip Girl is the

bell bottom triangles on the side of my face. I wanted to make sure they were long. You wanted a little bit in his peripheral vision. And so when I see them now, I'm like, oh, if I could have just seen the side of my face, I would have shaved them right off Let's get to you

Rather than my sideburns Oh no let's talk about you the whole episode The listeners would not complain It's not it's not it's not You have I think the most Thematic Connection to our show of any guest Probably could possibly ever have

I mean you're right there You're right there in the pocket You are Can you tell us how you know Nava Cavlin Yeah big real guys I might actually start crying. I'll try and save it for the end.

So yeah, coming into this episode seems like an obvious match because Penn and I, I don't know if you guys know, we worked together on this thing a while ago, but I have a connection to the podcast that predates that which is that Nava can confirm or deny the things I say today

because she was there on the ground. She was my, like, what was the official title? assistant. Yeah, I was trying to forget, I think... Learning teacher, like... Teaching intern. Teaching intern. My freshman year of high school, which I almost

said college, because God, freshman year of high school feels like... You feel like an adult, too. Yeah, yeah. At the time, you do. You're like, I'm 17 and what I can tell you about life is. No, so she was. And... But, like, more than that, though, I mean, at the risk of

fomenting a very uncomfortable moment, we, like, bonded. We had, like, a special relationship where, I don't know. That was, again, without leaping headfirst into the emotional portion of the podcast. That was one of the first times because she was, like, young enough

that I think she was like, ooh, this boy, Nick, is going through it. He's really experiencing high school. but old enough that when she said things to me I was like oh my god you're so wise and articulate and I believe you and I can't believe that like you said that about Nava? Yes

We never said that she changed she changed yeah but it was like a special thing I remember I actually well maybe we'll just get into the many different stories but we yeah it was like I don't know I really needed somebody in my life at that point who was like smart and cool and paying attention enough

to have conversations with me and unlike, I mean speaking of the whole sideburns, like no one will tell you how your sideburns look I felt like at a time when your freshman year you feel like a lot, you feel like an adult but you feel like a lot of the actual adults in your life are still using, you know, oven mitts when they're handling you, I don't know,

I always felt like you were just, I remember, so Persepolis, do you remember? Yes, was the first, yeah, no, I remember, imagine, if I did it. No, that's so great that you remember. There was a graphic novel series called Persepolis, and I should have Googled the author's name. How utterly humiliating.

I had so much time to prep for this conversation. It just did it. And Navajo noticed that I was reading it, and it was about a young girl growing up during the cultural revolution in Iran, and I remember we first started talking about it, and I said, I ran, and you stopped me very politely, and you said, well, first of all,

let's pronounce the country's names, correctly, it's Iran, and I was like and I was humiliated, I was like, you fool, you imbecile, but I was also like, I don't know, like she takes me seriously enough to be like let's have a conversation about this, but let's

do it, let's pronounce the country's names correctly, where I don't, you know, from then on, I don't know, it was just like, when she finally got to taught our class, I was like, this is, this teach our class, I was like, this is heaven. Me and my buddy, Nova.

So sweet. Yeah. Yeah, so James used to go by Nick. I did. And it's really hard for me to think of him as James because he's Nick to me. Met Nick, James, when he was 14. Wow. He was at a school called the International School of the Americas. I have taught it four different schools, and that was my favorite.

Really? That was my teaching year. Yeah. So I shadowed this teacher, Lindsay Prett, for the fall semester, and then in the spring semester, I taught the spring semester. So you not only did you witness James, like, growing up and becoming, you witnessed her becoming a teacher. I did. Well, she was in a natural. She's all right. I have no notes. She's all in the past.

Navick came out, the one was like, Mom, I have notes. The energy was there. I have some notes for you. She crushed it from the get. Were you into theater at this point? Yeah, in middle school, I'd say. We had, I mean, really, if you want to go, the way back.

I'm, like, pre-K, we would do, like, a Christmas nativity pageant, and the other kids were, like, were being, like, forced to, which wasn't actually, it was, like, we were animals so it was like kind of secular they were doing a thing it was montessori school in texas so we were all over the place um they were trying to ride just got me a little jesus they were like we're doing a little bit for everyone so maybe just nobody complain it's texas um no shout out to san antonio country day great great montessori school uh and i was like always

the other kids were like okay so we're being forced to stand up in front of our parents and say things and this is like humiliating and i was like you guys this is this is the chance this is the opportunity I was so into it so like starting from then it's actually like funny to me sometimes I wish you know I'm like so happy for the life I have I wouldn't really change anything but it's like funny that my parents I feel like I not wasted time but there were so many other failed hobbies that it's like from the get did you guys not identify that like I was a star like you should have just why did nobody just like drive me to Los Angeles and just leave me that you know what i mean not actually because sometimes that goes really well

and as we know sometimes it doesn't um but yeah from a very young age i was like i want to i want to act this is fun i like doing this when did you become aware of yourself as like a feeling like an artist and a performer i guess in middle school i wasn't in the theater program until the very very very very very end but i was in um gifted and talented english part of what we did as that is we put up a shakespeare like extracurricularly to english and uh in sixth grade i played oberon the fairy king um which is what we call foreshadowing in um but then in seventh grade i played Macbeth and I honey

you better believe I memorized all of his lines and I was like I am I like got my parents to get me like feudal battle armor from the costume shop in downtown San Antonio I was like I am McBeth like I am like the school wasn't going to do it for you and so you were like oh yeah they were like provide your own costumes

and everybody else was in like a linen tunic their mom had cut out for them and I was in that's amazing Furs, velvet. A kilt. Yeah, truly like a leather studded vest with like an undershirt and like a sword. They were like, you can't have a sword. What are you doing?

That is so sweet. I feel like so much of my middle school experience is like fit in, fit in, fit in, like make yourself smaller. It sounds like you made an, you didn't feel the need to do that. And I love that. Well, maybe theater, I mean, because theater is sometimes a place where you get to not do that. Sure. I, in retrospect, I don't think about middle school ever. And when I go back to think about it, I'm like, whoa, what is this dusty mildewy box in the corner of my brain that I never touch?

So let's get into it to the point where I was like, maybe I'll just steer them in a high school direction. Because there's, you know what I mean, I don't want to be like, life is so, especially for me, like life's so horrible and trying, but middle school. Why was it? Why was it so hard? Well, so to answer your question, I was doing this weird thing, and we'll get into notes I have for my 13-year-old self later, but where, yeah, I, like, desperately wanted to, like, assimilate and be, like, you know, cool and just, like, everybody else. But then I was also, like, wearing a kilt to school.

And you better believe, because they gave you the option. They were like, you can wear your costume at school all day, want to. You better believe I wore my Oberon fairy king of the forest tunic all day and then was like surprised the kids had shit to say about it and it's like Nick, baby

baby baby, baby, you've got to choose a lane, babe, you live in southern Texas, what are you doing? So yeah, I like was sort of like structurally, it's like I didn't know how not to be

obnoxious I guess depending on your perspective or just like very very visible and I wish I had leaned into that more I wish I had been I wish I could put shamelessness in in that version of myself because he would have been so powerful were that the case but no I was like I would like do things like that and then be like would like show up at school in the costume and then be like oh I've made a horrible mistake. Why did I choose to do this? But hey, character building, I guess. I love the word you use their power because that is specifically

what I think people are struggling to do with this age group is just how do we empower them? In a way that's not like toxic. It's not just teaching or educating. I mean, those things are of course important. It's not just disciplining. It's like, it's how do we empower because they can be, we

are powerful when allowed to be. I think about that so much because I, too, feel as though, I think we all, that's what probably everybody listening also shares. It's like we were limiting ourselves. Yeah, oh, my gosh, hiding. And everyone is, even the kids who I'm projecting a narrative of, like, popularity and strength on tears.

Actually, they're probably doing it the most. I feel like the popular kids are the most. The most violently code switching. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bummer, man. We've talked about this a little bit, but what's your most vivid memory from... From middle school?

No, from our English class together. I did have... Don't tell her I said this, but I did, like, kind of have a little crush on that. Really? Do you remember that you brought me a Valentine? Is that like you, on Valentine's Day, again, I think she had diagnosed this situation. She was like, nobody else would bring this fucking for the Valentine's. No, it was very sweet, actually.

It was like a honey bun and like a sunny D, like, wrapped in a little package with a bow on it. And you were just like, happy Valentine's Day. Again, in a very adult professional, like, there was no intonation of, like, weird valentines. It was just like, you know, happy. This is like a silly, weird day. But here's a honey bun and the sunny D, and I hope you have a nice day. And I was like so, so, anyway, that's my dearest Nava memory. My, my, and I feel like I have, I mean, I would say the dumbest, dumbest stuff in class.

A lot of times just to be like, in case anyone forgot how smart I am, a scintillating point I have to make about the merchant of Venice. his novice face when I would do things like that where she would just be kind of like oh James will Nick whatever I should call you Stick around

We'll be right back All right So let's just Let's just real talk as they say for a second That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk How important is your health to you?

You know, on like a 1 to 10 And I don't mean in the sense of vanity, I mean in the sense of like, you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down. some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually

but I need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly I turned to symbiotica these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and I'm telling you even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three that I use I use the the what is it called the liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as

well in the morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it you know anti-aging and then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8 which is really good for for I think mood and stress I sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. The first few weeks of school are in the books, and now's the time to keep that momentum going. I-XL helps kids stay confident and ahead of the curve. I-XL is an award-winning online,

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slash podcrushed. Visit ixl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods, that helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile whenever and wherever it fits your schedule. Rosetta Stone immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. There are no English translation so you truly

learn to speak, listen, and think in your chosen language. The other day I was actually at the grocery store and I asked one of the people working there if they could help me find a specific item and she was like sorry I actually don't speak English she only spoke Spanish and I was like if only I my Spanish was good enough to be able to have this conversation in Spanish we will be sorted and that's where Rosetta Stone comes in I really need to get back on my Rosetta Stone grind with 30 years of experience millions of users and 25 languages to choose from including Spanish French German Japanese and more Rosetta Stone is the go-to tool for real language A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages so you can learn as many as you want

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and coming out of the closet way, out of the way before you even start really genuinely evaluating other people. And then there's still like two or three years. of like warming up before you know how to do it. I'm still figuring it out. So it was hard because I don't even know that I was until like the very end of eighth grade. I don't even know that I was being honest with myself

about who I was interested in. I was definitely like cultivating the idea that I was in love with like every girl at my middle school in a very like, I'll write poems for you and bring you flowers on Valentine's Day. but like let's please not kiss kind of way it was actually I guess there's a cute way to look at it where I was just this I you know what I mean I was I was approaching love more academically and I was like okay so I got to like write her notes and like talk about her a lot you know what I mean I was like sort of going through the motions in my crushes because I was like this is what a crush is supposed to look like and I'm supposed to have crushes on these you know these women in my life on um on nova well that that was genuine that was a more beautiful nuanced thing that was happening that there's like all kinds of ways to like appreciate and and care about a

person that was probably the first like genuine again not romantic but still a crush because crushes are not always like romantic it's just a feeling you don't know what to do it's you're having all these feelings for the first time yeah it's like oh my god everybody gives me feelings I don't know what to do with goodness me Yeah, it was hard in middle school And I had crushes that were like I really don't think though That I had any like fully developed

Like romantic crushes though Because I just like that part of me Was like not accessible Even though everybody else was really sure That's what was going on I was like I am not in touch with that part of myself enough To like look at another person And it was just so clear for

the most part that like everyone around me was heterosexual so I was like I don't know that there's any had I met another and I would occasionally meet like there were like one and a half other gay kids at my middle school that were like probably weren't out we're just in the same position I was where everybody else had assigned them gay as their label and I guess we would like look at each other across the lunch table sometimes and think like maybe but unfortunately back then I feel like we were all more pitted against each other as adversaries than we were in a position to take each other seriously as romantic now I hope it's different it sounds like it's different it sounds like now middle school is a reasonable time to come out as as much as any other time would be but yeah I didn't

you know I don't think I admitted to myself that I was gay until like the very end of eighth grade so in terms of crushes it was like which is too bad I would have loved to have like but also I mean middle schoolers who was like especially middle school boys no offense no I actually think that's kind of the point is that there's there's no you know we're not meant to be romantically actualized I think it's you know when we when we're thinking about crushes and and first loves and heartbreaks I think it's not because it's meant to have been something else I think the point is it's like these feeling steamroll you, you know? I mean, they stick...

Yeah, physically... I mean, literally, it's as though you're doing drugs for the first time. You're just like, what is this? What, how my brain is lit up in all these different ways? My nervous systems is lit up in all these ways I'm thinking and feeling differently. So...

Yeah, we're not sexually actualized. So people talking... Certainly not sexually actualized, hopefully... Right. Yeah. Definitely not romantically actualized. So people telling me all the time, like, you're gay, I was like, sure, what does that mean?

And I wish, again, I wish I could go back in time and be in my body and be like, why are you talking to me about this? 12-year-old, I've just met. Like, I don't even, like, I'm gay when. Like, none of us are having sex. Like, none of us, so what does that mean? Yeah, yeah.

And I do wish, like, I will say middle school probably would have not been a good time to come out, even if I'd felt okay doing that. wasn't, I don't think I would have gotten any like flowers for that. I will say as you noted, ISA was an exceptional place and I wish I had come out as soon. Speaking of power, I should have been running that place.

I love that image of you. I'm just thinking of you in the fur and the feudal costume. It could have been. There's another world where if I had just like walked into ISA and the first guzzy heterosexual boy because it was always the heterosexual boys which again like why do you need to know De Niro

Do you have a follow up about my sexuality that you'd like to ask meeting another 14 year old boy and immediately asking what his sex life is like that seems a little gay to me but I didn't say any of these things I coward and I should have you know I could have been

we could have had so many more I don't know if there hadn't fit because it's weird you have conversations with people and there's this huge, obvious, flowery elephant in the room with you. But, yeah, no, in middle school, it was, and I think the biggest difference to your question of, like, kindly or unkindly, people did start kindly trying to guide me out of the closet in high school. In middle school, no. And the tough thing about middle school is the adults, too, were not. I didn't have any Lindsay Pratt's or Navacavans.

at Driscoll middle school and they were existed on a spectrum exclusively from well if you get a girlfriend I think a lot of these problems will go away Nick to well I don't know what you want me to do

if you acted the way that they said that you acted like how are they supposed to respond your boys like what do you you know to overtly homophiles I mean it is you know I I love San Antonio and I think there are are a lot of redeeming things about Texas

as a whole state. And it's really sad that like on the national and international stage it's presented as the way that it is, unfortunately. But there are a lot of like thoughtful. I will go on record and probably get cancelled for saying that I've lived in many states in Texas is my favorite.

It's like the easiest place to live. They think I'm being like crazy or making a joke when I say that I love my home state. And I'm like yeah and I say that as like a socialist homosexual living in Bushwick. But I do at least half of one of those things I do love Texas

but yeah the adults at my middle school in San Antonio were not it except Mrs. Arguello and Mrs. McCarthy my sixth grade English teacher my six grade reading teacher and actually all of my English teachers

and all of my reading teachers if you're listening to this Mrs. Post Mrs. McCarthy Mrs. Green yeah if any of you hear this you all I will get because they're in the literature you know what I mean they're reading Romeo and Juliet and being like a lot of this is coded for the hummus yeah um makes you start to wonder about the old

bard himself what was he going to go through at his extracurriculars so much time to just sit around and think back then um anyway I don't know somebody asked me another question okay wait we have a classic question we ask everyone which is to tell us an embarrassing story usually middle school but we'll we'll accept any era I mean could be adulthood How much time do we have? This one is kind of funny, actually. It's from fifth grade. That's when the trouble for me really started, though,

so I feel like that. And this sets the tone for me going into middle school. We were sitting alone in the choir room. It was me and my entire class, but I was sitting next to my best friend, Mason. The teacher had to leave to go do something. So it's, like, silent for, like, 10 minutes. Remember when you're a little kid?

And, like, the teacher leaves, and everybody just, like, powers down. and I was like it's really quiet in here it's like too quiet in here you're saying this out loud yeah and I'm the only person speaking and I look at Mason

and I don't it's like speaking of like time traveling back into your earlier self it's almost like that's what happened that a future very vindictive version of me jumped back into my body and was like okay we got to speed the character development up on this because I looked at Mason and I would say that I probably said this to you a dozen of times on set. I just looked at Mason, was like, should we make out?

You did it, actually. It was in fifth grade? Funny, funny, funny joke. Did not land. In fifth grade, obviously, yeah, everyone was horrified. They didn't get the nuance of my material. That was humiliating. And that moment followed me for, I mean.

That is so funny. Again, I haven't thought about it, so now I'm reliving the moment. They, like, look, everybody just looked. Some people didn't hear, but everybody near me looked and were like, what? And Mason was like, okay. And, like, got up and moved. Yeah, horrible betrayal, Mason. Wish you could have just been cool about that, dude.

Actually, that brand of humor feels to me ahead of its time. Totally. Oh, my God, again, like, how many times are. You're like, I've been thinking about this. Me and Victoria, me and anyone sitting next to me, I would be like, oh, my God. I think you said it on camera I think it's in the show Yeah

I think you probably did No I did yeah Those are 40 vibes Those were 40 vibes Which like James playing 40 playing James Yeah You know you get hired for these role

Serial killer Yeah exactly Just earlier Sophie was literally I can never tell the difference between Penn and Joe No Well the difference is in the practice of like Maybe Penn walks around thinking about killing people all the time

I hope not. That would be a big burden to carry around. I'll just remain quiet. Yeah. But yeah, that was probably, that probably, which again, like, if future me had stayed in my body long enough to handle the consequences of that decision, which I truly don't feel the gay zeitgeist, like, took over me. I don't know why I said it. It was not on brand for me at the time. It was funny.

It's funny. Thank you. And I should have just been like, guys, it's a joke if you can't hang. I'm sorry. I pulled out my fake flip phone and moved on with my life, but I didn't. I allowed myself to be... You're a 10.

Right. It's devastating. I was 10. It's humiliating. Why wasn't I more realized as a 10 year old? Yeah, but I like went back to class and they told my teacher

because he hadn't been there and then he who I looked up to immensely at the time was like, well, I hope you were kidding. And again, it's like I was incidentally, sir, but I wish that you as an adult that I looked up to were being cooler

about this and weren't so transparently disgusted by the idea that I might be gay. But again, that was like a little early in the sauce to like invite that conversation. I don't know why I did it but I'm having this very vivid memory. I can't remember his name and I hope you can because I think

you're in this class. The room at ISA were often set up as like conference style like a square. Yeah, a huge square minute of desks. So you could like have conversations and I just remember this one kid blonde. Anyway, one day he was just in the middle of the room. He was on the floor and he wouldn't stand up. I've never screamed

at a student. A lot of teachers do, so it's actually like, it's not like crazy for a teacher to scream at a classroom of kids. Even at ISA, they have kind of way. No, they do. You get really, kids like get on your nerves. I've never screamed, but the closest I've ever come was this kid. He just wouldn't stand up. He like wouldn't get in his seat and we couldn't start class. And I just remember being like,

I have never screamed at a student. Do not dare be the first. He, like, stood up right away. That's like the closest I've ever come to screaming at a kid. And that's the closest that I think if more adults, and I'm not giving teachers, especially public school teachers, notes on anything, bless you for the work that you do. But if more adults at that time were like, hey, I'm a person too

and you're forcing me into a position where I have to be aggressive to you, please don't make me do that. That doesn't feel good for me either. That kids would be like, oh, yeah, God, okay, shit, let me just go sit in my desk and you can take a deep breath. So that was really progressive of you. Good teaching, good teaching and action there. I've never yelled at a student.

Please don't make me yell at you. It's like very motivating. It's creative. It's a good, good, in acting school, what they call it? Clear objective, good tactic, good tactic. Yeah, appealing for empathy, yeah. Speaking of acting school, let's go ahead and segue right into, you know, your career. Wow, that was so good.

Yeah. I just have to acknowledge it. It's like, enough. How did you both? book you. Tell us about the audition process. How did that come on to your reader? I taped for it in New York with my friend and I think back about this a lot

because you know you think about things when you're an actor. It's part of the process. I had been taping with one person but I was like this is special. I think I'm going to like change it up and I'm going to tape with this other friend and I told them ahead of time I was like I really want to get into this one. So

what I'm saying is this is going to be an hour and not 30 minutes and I'm sorry but please be patient with me and be ready. We're not just like slapping this down and then sending it. I'd like it. I want to feel like good about it. So I sent it and then they got back to me pretty immediately and we're like, will he fly to Los Angeles to audition for us in person? And I was like, um, let me check my bank account. Yes, I will do that. Um, which is, and now they don't really do that anymore, but don't ask, don't ask young actors. I was going to say, yeah, they wouldn't fly you? Um, no, because they weren't

Also, that's not the moral of this story. Greg, David, I love all of you so much. But I went and I auditioned for David Rapopor, Sarah Schechter, and Sarah Gamble, which was caught, the two of them sitting next to each other in the audition room. I was like, oh, Greg and Sarah? No, Greg wasn't there. Sarah and Sarah. I was like, just don't look at that corner of the room.

It's like just a lot of like, like, and they were both just like that's, both of them have that kind of like cat. I mean, now like Sarah Shepard. it's very like shiv in succession which I'm glad that she makes that parallels but also Sarah Gamble where they're just watching you smiling and you're like oh you could be thinking any number of things

I have no idea all I know is that speaking of high school James I was like I just want you to like me went in did both of the scenes they giggled at moments and then I finished and then truly an actor's worst nightmare there was just like 10 seconds of silence and they were like okay thank you and I was like no

no no I flew here no ask me to bleed. I'd ask me to try. You don't understand. Like, I can do anything. Do you want me to do it again and juggle? I can juggle. They taught me, I paid $200,000 to a university in Ohio to learn how to juggle, so let me, please.

Did you go to Oberlin? No, Otterbine. But people, I'm always like, there are people in clubs. Where did you go to school? Otterbine? Oberlin, yes. No, I and then I didn't hear anything for a while, which was painful. I actually think I had to go home. for Thanksgiving and then come back to Los Angeles for another job that I was doing.

And my brother was like, how is the whole acting thing going? Like, are you okay? And I was like, I'm maybe about to get a huge life-changing job. I'll let you know. You'll certainly be the first person. I kind of hate it when family members ask. Like, did you book anything recently? I'm like, do you think I wouldn't have texted you immediately, Mama?

Yeah, I'm in a Marvel movie and I just didn't mention it in a family group text. No, but then I came back And then we found out Charles was like, we're having good feelings, we're having good feelings Then we found out that Victoria had been hired And I was like, okay, well, I look like I could be her twin And I at that time was binging Hillhouse

So I was like, okay, if I don't get this show I'm gonna retire and be a dog walker, I don't know, I can't like And then one morning they told me and I got it So you didn't have to do like a chemistry read with Penn or Victoria? I looked out. they basically offered them Charles was like I offered them a discount

I was like you will cut this much off of his episodic rate per episode if you just don't make him test and they were like yeah Wow Which going forward

Did you do that just to secure the role? I think that was Charles just being like a good manager Is Charles your agent? He's my manager Charles Mestro Pietro if you listen to this podcast

I love you so much all I do I do because I want you to be proud of me he's like oh I think also, like, Greg, who would have had to be there, at least via Zoom, Greg and Sarah and Sarah and David, I think all of them, probably Penn, was like, no, if we did it with Victoria already. If we don't all have to get in a room together again, just hire the brother, whoever the hell it's going to be. And it was me.

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365-day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. And do you have any recollections of his casting? The casting, no. I mean, to be honest, at that point, I wasn't I don't know. Yeah. Bless your heart. No, I mean, I mean,

A, I wasn't a producer then. B, I'm only ever, the only chemistry reads I've done are with the, you know, the female co-star. The romantic leads, yeah. You didn't have to do a chemistry read with Ed? That's shocking. Have you seen the most recent season? No, I hope that does that.

We're going to cut that. No, not at all. I don't understand this thing. You're fired from this podcast. But do you know the plot twist or no? Yeah, that you're not. It's everywhere. It's Abby McStaberson.

It's him, right? Well, but he's him. It's a projection from his mind. Yeah. So Ed plays Penn. So they have incredible chemistry. It's actually really fun. Played Joe.

You know, I had not yet seen... So it's kind of like a fight club thing. Sorry, we can also just ruin Fight Club for you. No, well, actually... They did ruin Fight Club for me. Sophie hadn't seen Fight Club, and we ruined it recently. For her. It's still a really fun watch.

Yeah, you should still watch it. And it's fun to actually go back and watch it knowing what the twist is, because then you see the ways they vary deliberately. Mostly you see Helen of Bonham Carter. giving an exquisite performance because she's the only bridge between reality and that narrative. So every time he brings up Brad Pitt, you suddenly notice that Helena Bonham Carter is like, okay, I'm going to leave. This is weird.

It's like a Chuck Polonic novel or something. Well, James was the first 40. That role was the first time I had like a significant male partner, you know? And for that reason, I mean, not just what you brought to it, which is also its own. iconic piece but you know I mean to me it was it was absolutely like what the show needed I mean it needed

a it needed a powerful female lead to sort of like rise to a different level in what they made love and what Victoria brought to it and then and then I think it's the same thing but he was so threatened by you he demanded they kill you off

he was like there can only be one male wasn't written into the show in the first couple of episodes he was probably like is it going to be like this every day. Yeah, he's got to go. You know what I did? I actually watched a there's something from like one of the Netflix YouTube accounts is there's this, there's

just like seven minutes of you being 40. Oh God. And it is so good. Like I forgot and I mean my goodness, the things you had to say. Some of them. The things you had, just just so many compound references.

I mean, you had a mouthful all the time. And I'm so lucky. It's not always like that when they write for television. You know, I was like, thank you, Sarah Gamble, and that entire writer's room. You really, I didn't. I did appreciate it at the time,

and now looking back, I'm like, when am I going to get to say stuff? That fun and stupid again. Right, and it does seem somehow, I mean, I can't imagine anybody else doing it because, like, because again, the intelligence you bring to it. Enough out of you, sir.

How dare you? Four seasons carrying that show on your, nimble shoulders and we're talking about me But I do it silently Which is its own straight jacket I mean trust me It's its own bizarre thing

That was the weirdest part about filming that Is I was like Oh yeah you're not gonna say Your inner monologue to me out loud Shooting those things Where it's like okay And now even like James Even though we're on your coverage

We're still gonna hold for 20 seconds To give Penn long enough To have the thought that he would be So you're just sitting there as the other actor Like sipping something probably I feel like Looking around Until finally in one of the episodes

They let me be like It's really weird When we sit in silence Like this together for 30 seconds So you guys never did a chemistry read together Then what was it like when you got on set together? Pretty quickly I was like This guy's like chill as hell

And just like wants to have Wants to do his job And then also like maybe have a good time at work If he can and we did Yeah We really did And truly one of the most like Um

Because, and I'm not going to, if you're a huge, big, famous successful actor, you determine this. Yeah, also, so it doesn't matter. But you do determine the tone on set. Number one determines the tone on set. And that's why that was such a fun show to work on because this guy was like, I'm not going to let. Nobody was ever rude to anybody else. And, like, it was a very respectful, like, let's get this done well so we can all go home. And then I think, like you said, 40 as a foil to Joe was kind of under.

unprecedented up until that point. Definitely. And then we realized, like, oh, we can have a lot of fun. And they started riding towards that. And then episode eight was sort of like, okay, this is where all of that, they realized that like, oh, sometimes we can just like let James just say shit. And he won't lead us astray. We can start keeping some of that.

And I, and then we got to eight, yeah. And we just sort of, that sweet, sweet director, I don't remember what his name was. Harry. Harry. Harry is your John. I think I'm pronouncing the glass thing correctly. Glasses. Yes.

Very sweet. Poor guy. We really put him being like, actually, this three and a half page scene, we just changed the blocking to what we want to do. That big scene where Penn. It was tough. I mean, it was also because it was tough. I think we were in that one room. We felt like we were on drugs.

There was a really a lot happening. There was never enough time. You had to be covered in blood and like hallucinating and talking to yourself and seeing Victoria and not seeing Victoria. We had to fight. You had to lip sync from... That was one of my... Elizabeth Lale's performance from season one. Wow.

Wow. That was actually one of my favorite parts of that job for... Why? Tell us why. Because, first of all, that monologue that she's doing in that scene where she's like, I don't need... It was my life, Joe. It was my life. I don't need like a white horse to come in and was, you know, Sarah Gamble doing her thing.

Being like, yeah, I... Hi, me from inside Elizabeth Lale. I, Sarah Gamble, do not need a white... I don't need a man telling me what to do while I run my show, while I show run my show. And also just because it was like, I don't know, it felt, there was something like, and I had the thing in my ear, there were so many, like...

Just to be clear, you had an earwear. I had an ear wig. I didn't just have a thing in my ear, sorry. No, but then I want to say that I think what they ended up using was when you took it out, right? Yeah, because I studied it until I was like, I could, like, do this in time to the take. We found that it was better when you were just doing it naturally.

Because the reception was never. And it's one of those times on set that's really special where there's all this technical shit that's getting in the way and then they take all of that away. And then I was just like... And it's a theater. Yeah. It also was like I had such a complex while shooting 40, basically until that episode where I walked up to Andrea and was like, hey, 40's queer, right?

Like, all... I've now, like, propositioned for Joe for sex a couple of times. and like my very strained relationship with my father, my co-dependent relationship with my sister and my mom. He can't be stressed. Also, you hired me. Like, he can't be like just a heterosexual. Although the other thing,

and there was so much speculation about that online afterwards, which was so irritating. And, of course, the thing that nobody focused on was like, hey, remember when his first sexual experience was statutory rape and then he thinks he murdered that person? Probably just, like, doesn't have a typical relationship with human intimacy to begin with but that scene

was nice because I was like I'm supposed to be inhabiting feminine rage in this moment I'm not like imitating her I am becoming a vessel for Beck and so it was like one time in this series where I was like I can have whatever affect

people are going to project significance onto after the fact that I want because I'm I am woman in this moment actually I just got chills remembering that and this always happens at least once every season at least once where some kind of and this is why we act at the end of the day why anybody makes art is that there's this really really lovely strange thing where the professional

and economic reasons that everybody's there melt away and you tap into some kind of human truth and and with this show what's amazing you know is like in all the absurdity that we're there kind of performing constantly but it's all for these moments and this was one of them when you were what in inhabiting elizabeth's performance or whatever you were having a vision of i was just having this vision of um of like the eons of male violence and and um women's oppression and it's like it's it's hard to explain with language obviously because it's like this you know that's not easy to say but the feeling is really profound and it's kind of overwhelming and i'm pretty sure it was not on me it was on you

because I'm seeing you really have to do that. But you say you're sitting there in silence. I remember what you looked like sitting on that couch looking at me when I was yelling those lines at you. And your face was giving, I am staring into the reawakened ghost of my girlfriend who I murdered. You were, she acts. Well, all I ever got to do is re-eat.

She does. But then that informed me that I was like, I am back, like, truly giving Galadriel, like, robes in the wind behind me. Is that Cape Blanchard and Lord of the Rings? Yeah, when she does the eye, we're in terrible, that's the god! Wow. Anyway, this was the vibe pretty quickly on set.

And in that scene, we did a lot of that, yeah, where it starts to feel like summer camp where it's like 3 o'clock in the morning, and you're like, how are you going to do? I remember the, you comforting me, me being like I killed my girlfriend, I think, and I'm a monster. Originally was scripted that I stand up throughout that

and sort of wander over to Penn and we talk, we had already actually done that exact physical pattern multiple times in the episode because we were shooting this entire thing in a hotel suite. It's like there's only so many places we can walk. And Penn and I were talking about it

and Penn were all talking and Penn in front of the director was like, well, what if I just like come to him? And then we tried a version where Penn came to me and lifted me up and he was like, no, this is awkward. And then Penn was like, well, what if I just, and I was not thinking these things, but I was like, I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say, what if Penn got down on the ground and cuddled me out loud and Penn was like, what if I got down on the ground and just sort of held him? And the director was like, oh, I don't know. It makes people nervous when you're going to change something and you've already blocked it, you've already shot some of it.

At this point, they're just like, yeah, what if we go $500,000 over budget? Right. I don't work again on this show. You know, that's, when you're asking that question, unfortunately. They were not trying to stifle our creativity at all. I think they were understandably nervous. And after having directed, I mean, I already knew this, but after having directed

an episode this season when we were behind three weeks I mean that's what you're feeling so an actor's job in that position is to be like okay can we can I it's tough it's like can can we break out of the mold

and it was that moment I mean I can't recall even what it's like on camera but I know that at least for us it's better than what it might have been and I remember us walking out of that rehearsal and you being like I like the cuddling thing

I think we're gonna do that and me being like Penn you are such a fucking real one I am so obsessed with you. And I think it yielded. And again, speaking of 40, just like from a story perspective, and that's why I was so, if I was like, this is just indulgent and useless,

but we get to see a different side of. And what, like, we talked about on the day, yes, of Joe, I think. And also just, like, two men being affectionate with each other on camera in a way that isn't, like, sexual or violent or, like, I don't know, like, it was just like a genuine moment between these two very troubled, obviously, people. Yeah, it was like, such a fun day on set. when I had to choke you had to choke me

that was crazy that was another thing that we did but remember because I had to choke myself because they were like we can't get the there was so much stuff that we did sneak in because the camera was so close I couldn't actually get like underneath the camera and so and that was a really proud day for me on set

because I was like what if I took all my jewelry off and choked myself do you think we'd be able to tell the difference and there's like a moment of silence and the director and the DP were like wait actually yeah like do you're are you How did you do that? And I don't know if... Yeah, it's not...

And then they just like put the camera. Yeah. And so at this point, by the way, this was when everything... That's how of contact. Can you do that again? Just like we're gonna use this for social media. This is the closest to like off the rails the show has ever gotten.

There is a unit production manager, a UPM, is somebody who comes in and essentially like pulls the plug when you have gone way past... Yeah, to be sneaky. So we did something that we've not done on this show. Bud, man Harry director and then the two of us and the UPM just chose to say I'm walking away and we are not shooting so the only people needed was and I'm sure the people whoever had to

roll and whoever had to like but it was the the barest bones so for like four minutes we we did what is technically like illegal inside another shot we were like we're just getting this shot and then without cutting at the end like everybody scrambled to rearrange so we had gotten that coverage of James being strangled, but we needed to get his B-O-V of me. So then, so then Bud, the cameraman, shout out, just like

swooped around. I think I had to grab, what it was like grabbing, I think I was grabbing his chest or something. And so then we just, and you know, I'm doing that thing, but now I can't stop doing, which is making the veins pop out of my face. You know, and it's just so, it was it was, it was

the five or seven of us who were involved in that last five minutes it felt like as you were saying it felt like summer camp like this is why we do it even though and it was what you know the 14th hour or something and it's truly yeah oh my god that so much of it is so planned

and so structured but the best stuff happens when you get into that weird liminal spinole is one of Penn's favorite word shout out for working it all the time if you could go back right now to your 12 year old self right what would you say to him relax

it's not that deep especially not back then most of the time people aren't like trying to hurt you no one is thinking about you nearly as much as you are thinking about yourself and pretty much everything is like developmentally appropriate and it's okay to be like weird

and confused and like have feelings that are different from your friends that you don't understand it would have been fine to come out freshman year of high school and you could have avoided a lot of at least two more years of unpleasantness in your life, you probably could have told your family at least in middle school and they would have eventually, I'll just say this, blanket statement,

the queer stuff becomes a wonderful, wonderful part of your life and you just don't need to be so worried about it. It'll blossom naturally as your active romantic life does. So all these people talking to you about the sex you're going to have hypothetically when you're older, when you're 12 years old, you should point out to those people how absurd that line of questioning is and then keep trucking

and most importantly there were moments the only moments I really regret because it's like why would I change anything in my life like Chris said you don't want to change anything like look at us and this lovely conversation we're having is the moments when I was like cruel to other people when I was unkind

or mean because I thought it was going to save me or get me something or earn me cachet or protect me if I could like divert the negative attention. Don't do that. It doesn't help and you will feel bad about it later. And those people that you're being unkind to, there's probably an opportunity there for real camaraderie. You waste so much time trying to impress people who are not nice to you. I'm so sure. You do. And don't do that. There are people who want to be nice to you. Just hang out with

them. And then you never have to like, you know. And just like take a deep breath and drink some water and wear more sunscreen and be nice to people. Thank you so much, Jay. This has been so sweet. Sweet. Yeah. So I listened to Chris's episode. Yes, Mr. Olson.

Love him. If you're coming on this show after me, that's a great, I would say, like if you're going to listen to one episode, to be like, what's the jeunisequois of this podcast? But when you introduced me, you guys made him... He sounded like he was about to win like a Nobel Prize with everything he had going on.

That's fair. Please, don't do that. With James, just be like, James, you might know from being a big stupid idiot. On a big stupid show. A big, dummy, dummy stupid idiot. Yeah, please know. Like, he's an advocate for...

You know what? You know what? James, James, if it was genuinely up to me, Yeah. You'd get your wish. Right, but if anybody emails you after the fact and is like, you need to make him sound like, no, you know. Stitcher.