Podcrushed - Jay Ellis

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

Jay Ellis (Insecure, Top Gun: Maverick, Escape Room) joins Podcrushed to discuss his early life as a military brat, the pivotal moments that shaped his career, and how his Sam Jackson-inspired potty mouth got him into trouble as a kid. Jay shares insights from his book Did Anyone Else Have an Imaginary Friend or Just Me? and shares what drew him to take part in his new stage play Duke and Roya. Preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993    Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here: Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Insta: @pennbadgley @scribbledbysophie @nnnava Tik Tok: @iampennbadgley @scribbledbysophie @nkavelinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I had a Sam Jackson phase where like I said fuck nonstop and the woman tells my mom we don't say that word here and I don't know what you let him do at home but we don't use that word here and that was the second school

that I got kicked out of. Welcome to podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Sophie and I'm Navajo. and I think we would have been your middle school besties. Blasting the Goo Goo Dolls and watching ourselves cry in the mirror. I just want you to know who I am. Right?

Perfect. Well, well, well. Today's guest is Jay Ellis, the endearing, hilarious actor that you know from series like HBO's Insecure. He's also on the current running point on Netflix. You know him from films like Freaky Tales, Escape Room, and, oh, no big deal, Top Gun Maverick. But it's not just the screen that Jay is famous for.

He's also a published author. His book, Did Anyone Else Have an Imaginary Friend or Just Me? Tells stories of his early childhood navigating life as a military brat who was on the move constantly. It's a fascinating conversation. You're going to want to stick around for it. Jay is currently starring in a stage play called Duke and Roya, which depicts the unlikely love story between international hip-hop star Duke and Afghan interpreter Roya in Kabul, Afghanistan. opened on June 24th and it's currently running. If you're in New York City, go, go, go. We urge you

to go and see this. It sounds amazing. I wish, go to my place because I wish I could go. We loved chatting with Jay and we know that you're going to love it too. So stick around. Don't go anywhere. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time. everything it can be for my little boy, Louie. Nom-Num does this with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures, and ingredients. Nom-Num offers six recipes bursting with premium proteins, vibrant veggies and tempting textures

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I have to confess that he's never had anything like it, and he cannot get enough. So he's a lamb-pe laugh guy. Keep mealtime exciting with NomNum, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Why do we do what we do? What makes life meaningful? My name is Elise Loonen, and I'm the author of Oner Best Behavior and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread.

I explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand. and ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to pulling the thread from Lemonada Media wherever you get your podcasts. We start at 12 years old here. I mean, you have this rich vein that you've tapped in your book, so we know that you have a lot of stories and stuff, but just give us a snapshot of Jay at 12, you know,

How was he seeing the world? What was day-to-day life like for him? And which country was he in? That's right. I think we were somewhere between Texas and Oklahoma. So 12 would be sixth, seventh grade. Seventh grade, we moved to Oklahoma. So I had a crazy growth spurt between 12 and 13.

That was like eight and a half, nine inches in about a year. Whoa. So you were a tall kid then. So I went, I went from a, average height kid to a tall kid very interesting oh my gosh yeah by the time i was in eighth grade i was like six two whoa probably yeah that's crazy james which was crazy which was and that's when you're like you know what mike it's been real but i don't need you that um but no i mean i was definitely coming out of you know you brought up my book like i was coming out of this space where like my dad was

in the air force i'm an only child we traveled a lot i had an imaginary friend to cope with like the traveling and the new schools and all the new environments and also processing the world around me and trying to figure out, you know, what hip hop meant to me, what movies meant to me, what music meant to me, what all of these things, all these messages that you're kind of constantly receiving at a young age. Also, you know, I think about like puberty starting to hit, you know, you start to like, that's right around the time where you're like, oh, she's cute. Like, this is like, oh, you know, terrified to kiss. terrified to hold hands, terrified to do anything, but she's cute.

So I feel like all of those things were happening at 12. And I do remember thinking, like, you know, one of the things that like me and two of my closest friends at the time, who are still two of our closest friends today, Jason and Will, we watched Sports Center every single morning. Okay. I don't know why I find that so funny. That's a really reason.

And then we would erase the school and tell each other about whatever Stuart Scott said on sports said or whatever quick witty pun he had that morning. We were like, oh, did you hear what he said this one? And like that was like my morning thing and then in the afternoons I would raise home for two things. One was where

in the world is Carmen San Diego. Wow. And the second one was my dad got off work early. My dad got off work around he would go to work around 5 a.m. he'd get home around 3.m. 3.30 p.m. And my dad loved matlock and the golden girls and we would sit around and watch either matlock or the golden

girls on reruns like when i would get home from school sometime and like that's what 12 was for me and it was also obviously there's music and there's like all these different things there's me starting to play basketball um but that's kind of what 12 was for me can we ask so you know i've never heard somebody speak about an imaginary friend the way you have written about yours say like i really enjoyed reading your book i really really loved this perspective that you took on on on that and how real you made it seem so touching so i just want to hear maybe like we always go back into earlier childhood um after 12 like however much it's relevant but i feel like there's something about mikey that our listeners would be really interested to hear

especially because we we start at the age where you start having to say goodbye so i'm curious where was Mikey around this time. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So Mikey, you know, I say in the book that I truly believe that a child's imagination gives them what they need when they need it. And at times, it's to protect us. It's times it's to feel a void. At times it's to connect with other people or it's to process the world around you, right? And as a kid, you don't know that. You're just experiencing life. But like as I started to think about this book and started to think about what Mikey, my imaginary friend was to me, what I realized is he was like the big brother that I'd never had. And he was there to help me process the world. And so that was everything

from literally, you know, I joke and tell this story. That's a very not funny story, but it's also funny now that you look back and I made it out safely. But like I'll talk about going to see boys in the hood for the first time when I was 10 years old in theaters and like there were there was a shooting you know two gangs two rival gangs literally started popping off in the theater and me as a little kid watching this movie that you know is singleton's masterpiece in my mind today but like also seeing kids who look like me on screen and then this crazy thing erupts and it happens and it's this pandemonium of trying to get out of there and like how does a kid process something like that right and you You said that Mikey, Mikey told you before that he had the bubble guts. Isn't that right? He had the bubble guts. And I use that as like a way to talk about intuition and a way to talk about like your gut knows when something is right or wrong. We all have that feeling.

And Mikey going into this, going into the theater said he had the bubble guts. And Mikey's bubble guts was a way is his body, which was my body ultimately, telling me that something wasn't right. That this, this situation felt off for some reason. And it was off. And it became a situation. And so I think we all have that. And it's how do you listen to it? Where do you find it in life?

What are those little subtle signs that your body or your mind gives you to say, hey, you should just pay attention to this because it could be great for you or it could not be great for you. Or maybe there's something to mind out of it if you're not in the moment. I got to this place where Mikey started to fall further and further into the background and, you know, there wasn't a visual manifestation of him anymore. There was just his voice and then there wasn't his voice anymore. It was just my own voice that was starting to take over, my own subconscious and my own thoughts. And really I use, you know, in the book I talk about that like Mikey, for me at that age was really just a form of self-talk, which again, we all have.

and that's just how it manifested in my in my childhood and then you know you slowly start to find out over life that like oh we all have this thing back here that we're listening to or not listening to that's helping us navigate the world that we're in for good or for bad yeah you know I'm so curious about you moving so frequently is it like 12 schools by a certain period of time yeah I'm curious what was the first day at a new school like for you oh miserable ball. Oh, I hated it. I never wanted to leave home. It was so, it sucked because what I started to understand really quickly is that in most cases, I was going into groups that had already been formed because it was very often that like a lot of these kids had already gone to school together for a couple of years or lived in the same neighborhood or wrote the bus together or whatever it is. And so I was always the odd man out. And I hated that. Yeah, that's so tough. But then what it becomes is like, all right, well, what's the fastest way into a group?

And like at one school, it might have been like the basketball players. And at another school, it might have been like the theater kids. And at another school, it was like the debate kids. And it was like, what is the fastest way into like me having some version of normalcy and me having friendship and relationships like, you know, in this school? So what it kind of turns into is like me not realizing at the time, but I was like putting on a different character like at every single school that I went to. If I didn't like the kid that was at the last school or if he wasn't as popular as I wanted him to be or if he didn't have as many friends as I wanted, then I could try something new at a different school. I went to a school.

I tell this story in the book, actually, I think I do. I'm pretty sure I do. I tell this story. I went to a school where 85% of the student body spoke Spanish as a first. first language. Oh, yeah, Ramon. You were Ramon. So my middle name is Ramon, which we still don't understand how my grandmother, I'm named after

my father. My real name is Wendell Ramon Ellis Jr. We have no idea where my grandmother got Ramon from. I think she had a boyfriend named Ramon. Yeah, got an ex-lover. Yeah, it's an ex-lover. This is how my dad got that middle name and so how I got it. But I decide that at this school, I'm going to like take on like the persona of.

Ramon and I'm only gonna like so I like for weeks for like a three or four weeks leading up to going to this school I literally like watched Univision I like listened to like Latin radio in Austin which there's plenty available I like over I would repeat phrases to myself over and over and over again and my hope was that like I was going to like learn Spanish yeah and that I could get by just enough because what they did at the school actually is they put all the English-speaking kids for a grade, they put them in one or two classrooms, and the teachers would rotate around to the classroom, while all the Spanish-speaking kids would rotate from class to class to class. And so all I needed to do was get through like the first 20 minutes of the morning,

because I was then going to be in class with a bunch of English-speaking kids all day, and then I needed to get through lunch and then a few minutes after school to get to the bus. And so my mind, if I could get through 45 minutes a day, an hour of day of like making all these kids think that I was Ramon, who spoke Spanish, then I was, that was it. That was the new persona that I was taken on. And it was disastrous. Like I literally, like on the bus, on the way to school the first day, like it made an absolute fool of myself. And Ramon literally died that day and has been gone ever since. R-I-P, Ramon. I imagine Mikey taken Ramon by the shoulder just saying, brother, be yourself, man. Oh. Just relax, you know what I mean?

Like these two personas just off in the distance somewhere. Yeah. I was listening to this podcast, Good Mythical Morning, these two, it's hosted by two friends, Rhett and Link, who are like, I don't know, they have kids in their 20s, so they're probably in their late 40s or 50s. And they have been. and best friends since second grade.

And they now work together. They have a business together. And they were telling this story of like sitting on this rock when they were 12 years old and talking about their dreams. And I, similar to you, I moved every, an average of every two years. Looking back, I'm like, I don't know. I don't have that many lifelong friends, if any. Like that's something from my childhood that I missed out on because of the way that my

parents brought me up. And that was something that Rhett and Link, who I was listening to, really got. and I was feeling like a pang of sadness. Like, dang, I just don't have that experience. Like, I can't change the way that I grew up. I just don't have that experience. But then there's also all of these things that I've, that I gained from the experience that I did have that,

Rhett and Link, I'm just using them as an example in this case, don't have because they didn't grow up the way that I did. And it reminded me of this therapist we talked to, he was talking about this in the context of relationships, but he said any attribute that a person has is both, a bug and a feature. Like it has this, it has like a side to it that is beneficial and a side that is that is not. And I'm curious, it sounds like you just described a little bit. Like it allowed you to play characters. It allowed you to like get into this zone that you've actually used now in your

career. But we know you weren't able to make lifelong friends because you moved around every year. I'm curious if there's anything else you feel like your upbringing did give you. Like what are the features? Yeah. I mean, I do think. To your point, I was always jealous of the people. I'm very jealous of people who say that they've known someone their whole life. Like, I'm very, very, very jealous of that because I don't have that. For me, it starts in about middle school, which is the last week. Because we stayed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, basically middle school through high school.

I bounced around to schools still every year and a half, every two years. So I still went to, I went to two middle schools and two high schools. But some of those friends. And three of those friends from middle school are still my closest friends today. And then there's another two or three from high school. And the six of us are actually all really, really close. All five of them live in the same city. And then I'm the rogue one out in L.A.

But I get very jealous when I hear that. I also get jealous of people who, like, have pride for a city. Like when you're like, oh, this is my town. I grew up here. I blah, blah, blah. Like, I get so jealous because I don't have that. I don't. I wish in a lot of ways I did. And also I'm very grateful that I don't have it because it allowed me to move around. It allowed me to meet a lot of people. And like I feel very comfortable in any room I go in. I think humanity and empathy or something that I feel like I tap into very, very quickly. Because I do think an experience like moving around like that allows us for you to see how similar we all are. Yeah. Regionally, we may have our own thing. Internationally, we may have our own, obviously. cultures and traditions. But at the end of the day, you know, I kind of boil down to like we all

want the same four or five things in life. And it's health, it's happiness. It's for our next generation to do better than what we did for ourselves. And then some version of peace. Like I think we're all in search of those four or five things, whether we know it or not. And they get masked in different ways. Sometimes they get masked with money or with fame or with grind or with legacy, they get masked with all these different things. But I think at the end of the day, like that's what most of humanity is really in search for.

Like, we want to be seen and then we want people around us, obviously to see us. And then we want these few other things that I said earlier. And I do think that like that is a gift that I was given from moving around so much, is really being able to be comfortable anywhere. I always make a joke of my friends that like,

I'm good on any Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard. anywhere. I'm good. I feel very comfortable. And I don't know if I would have had that. I don't know because I don't have another set of data to like draw from. But like I don't know if I would have had that experience had I not moved around as much as I did. And I think the other piece is like if you knew that you were going to spend a year transitioning to whatever you may be, you may believe afterlife is, my guess is the things that you, would think about in that time are the happiest moments you had in your life, the things that made you smile, the people's you love, the experiences that you had. You may think of some things

that hurt you. You may think of some things that, like, you know, created this core memory that kind of sits with you in a way. But my guess is you would spend most of that time, hopefully thinking about the beauty that you had in life. And so this other thing that I kind of feel that like I got from that experience is like if I'm not going to remember it or talk about it whenever my time comes I just got to let it go. Like at the end of the day I'm here for like happiness, growth, longevity, health, all of those fun, you know, joy. I'm here for all of those things. So like if I'm not seeking that at all times, which I'm human, I err a lot. But if I'm not seeking those things, or if I'm dwelling on the bad things that I'm probably not going to remember

40 or 50 years from now, then it's not worth. Experience the emotion, experience the moment, go through it because it is true and it is real, but then after that, you can find a way to release it and let it go. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Meet J-Lab. Headphones and speakers as vibrant as your son. summer, beach days, workout sessions, or chill moments? You can find the perfect sound with J-Leb. J-Lab's colorful collection has something for every summer adventure and every moment.

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that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has as its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really like. liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with.

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that we ask everyone. One is, if you can tell us about your first, like big crush, infatuation, love, and first feelings of like rejection, heartbreak. Oh, my God. I write about it in my book. Middle school, high school. Third grade, Ms. Callow,

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The stapler. Yeah. So I'm in third grade. So I guess that's probably like eight years old, seven, eight years old probably. And we're in Austin, Texas at the time. And I'm at Beatty Elementary School and there's a teacher named Miss Calloway.

And Miss Calloway had like mocha color skin, big curly hair. And she was the sweetest, nicest, like every, even in her most stern moments. Like everything about her was. just like, it was amazing. It was like at all times, the sun was shining behind her. Like, when she walked through the doors, like angels trumpeted. Like, it was the most amazing thing. And she had this rule in her class that if you got in trouble, you had to sit in the chair

next to her desk. And that was punishment. And I was in trouble every day. You could keep me out of trouble. Like, I would do something every single day because it got me closer to Ms. Calloway. Where it ends up being, at that age, kids are just kids. And young boys tend to be pretty all over the place at that age. And so there was another kid, his name was Lou Tan, and Lou was always in trouble as well.

And in the book, I talk about how, like, Lou's hair was always, like, perfectly slicked back. Like, he was Pat Riley in the 80s. And, like, he was just this good-looking kid who, like, at all times, like, was perfect. And then he would get in trouble and sometimes he would. would end up in my seat next to Ms. Calloway. So I decide, Mikey and I, in my seat, like in my throne next to my queen. You know what I'm saying? So Mikey and I, I had to plan with Mikey to get in that seat.

And he tells me that I should staple my hand. First, he tells me I should pee on myself. And I'm like, no, we go back and forth about it. And you're like, Mikey, come on. He's like, yo, that's a bad idea because no woman wants to sit next to somebody who peed on himself. Like, that's a horrible, that's not, unless it's a baby in a diaper, like, that's not happening. And so I feel this pressure when we get in class because I think Lou is about to

like get in my seat. So I run up to her desk and I slap. I slide my hand between the stapler and I slap my hand like whack-a-mole. I mean, I pop it so hard. Wow. The entire class is like silent and like a few people gasp and she's just staring at me and I just cry. I mean tears, tears, tears. Look down. My hand is bleeding. There's a staple that's sticking out of it. She tells me to go to the nurse. I say the nurse doesn't like me. I ask her to take it out. She reaches in her purse. She gets some tweezers. She pulls it out. The next day, I decide that I need to find a way to say thank you. So I, I lived on a Berkstrom Air Force Base at the time. And I, there's this, most of the housing were basically like duplexes. And we run over, one, there was

this house I was across my bus stop. And Mikey and I, like, run across the street. I grab a rose pick the thorns off of it. Take it to school. Oh my gosh. Get to class early. I skip breakfast at school, which was like biscuits to gravy,

fat morning, which is my favorite. And I skip it because I love Ms. Calaway that much. Sacrifice. And so I go to class. I give it to her and I ask her if she'll be my girlfriend.

And she's like, nah. Nah. Like that's not, no, that's not happening. She basically is like I'm too old for you

I'm your teacher You're my student Like you're too young And she says one day You'll find a nice girl That you will fall in love with And like that'll be your girlfriend And that truly was like my first heartbreak

That was like I was crushed I didn't want to go to school the next day I was completely crushed after that Completely crushed Did you get in trouble after that Did you sit in your chair ever again I said I got in there every once So I definitely still got in trouble

I definitely still got in trouble I got in trouble a lot, guys. I got kicked out of three out of two preschools growing up. I got in trouble a lot. Preschools. Out of preschools. Even though they did that. One, because I wouldn't stop biting kids.

And the other one, I was a biter. I was a bite. And the other one is because I had a Sam Jackson phase where like I said, fuck, nonstop. That is too much. That's so good. Like nonstop. Like literally I would say to the teachers.

I would say to the kids. And like, finally. this woman who ran this preschool calls my mom one day. My poor mom, again, I think we're leaving in Austin. Yeah, we are in Austin at this point, has to catch the bus because we only have one car and my dad had the car. She has to catch the bus in like an 88 degree humid Texas day from work to come pick me up from this preschool that I'm getting kicked off of, kicked out of. And the woman tells my mom, we don't say that word here. And I don't know what you let him do at home, but we don't use that word here. And that was the second school that I got kicked out of.

That's actually a really great little image of, because you are also like particularly, you just seem incredibly good nature and just like, I mean, look, so many people do. So you're going to come on a podcast and sort of. But you just, I mean, because I have a four-year-old right now, four-and-a-half-year-old and a 16-year-old. And then we have two more on the way, twins. So I'm just thinking a lot these days about, thank you. I'm thinking so much about development you know, as you inevitably do. You're thinking about every day you have this opportunity to sort of,

you know, as you said, like mess them up less or more, you know? And every time they have some new behavior, I think the worst thing a parent can do is like take it personally and think like, oh, what am I doing? Because then they like kind of overreach and over discipline.

But it's really heartening in some ways to hear you were it like four-year-old, four years old, just saying fuck all the time. Yeah. A terror. And biting people.

Yeah, inviting people. Yeah, I mean, listen, I think to your point, I mean, and you know this, like, as a parent, I definitely am seeing it a lot more. How old are your kids, by the way? My oldest is five and a half. My youngest is 11 months. Okay.

Congratulations to you. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're more than welcome to take them. for weekends. I love them, but just take them for weekends. But no, but I realize

that, like, she's learning to express herself. And she doesn't know what she's saying half the time. And she doesn't know why she's acting the way she's acting half the time. So to your point, it's like, how do I not take that personally? And how do I just let this person develop? And then we put some guardrails on and we have some conversations at times. Like, right, when things can get a little too big or, or, or, Or maybe, you know, you need to understand what you're saying or what that emotion is

or how to better, you know, control that emotion or how it affects other people. But like at the end of the day, like, she's just trying to figure it all out. Most of us are still trying to figure it all out. We just like understand our vocabulary a little bit better and have gone through some experiences. But we're all still stumbling through this thing called life. Speaking of life, I think we need to get to your career. We want to talk about your career. Because we can spend, I mean, it's actually such a joy going through your early years.

But let's get to when you saw acting as an opportunity, the performing arts suddenly opened up to you and you felt like you could take it. And then we'll get into your first jobs. So I will say, like, I remember watching stuff and I was like, oh, I want to do that. How do they do that? What is that? having no idea what that even was, I got a chance to go play college basketball. While I was playing college basketball, it is a job. It is not easy. It is very early mornings

from five to seven every morning. We would be in the gym and then we would go back to the gym from like three to seven every afternoon. Or if we were sharing the gym at a certain part of the season, three to five, luckily, but then we'd have to go do something else. Anyway, I remember being so jealous of the theater kids. So jealous. I was like, man, And they look like they're having so much fun. They're just walking around and they're all free and they're all like doing accents and like in their bodies. And I was so jealous. And so I used to buy electives to take some classes around the theater program.

I can never commit to a production, A, because of my basketball schedule, but then B also, I was just straight up a coward. I was way too afraid to walk into the locker room. It'd be like, hey, you guys want to come see me and Pippin? Like, I'm in the title role. Like, I just, as like in a towel in the locker room, like after practice, like, I just was way too afraid to do that, right? And so later, I end up, I graduate, I bounce around for a little bit. I lived in the mountains in Arizona randomly for like six months up in Prescott, Arizona. I spent some time in New York.

I spent some time traveling quite a bit. And my time in New York, I was like, oh, I did this. that theater thing. I did a little bit of a theater thing. So like, I want to do that. Like, how do I do that? And it was hard and harrowing and not having the experience of this city and not knowing people and just trying to figure it all out with no money. And it just felt like the craziest thing to me on the planet. And I was like, I think I want to do TV and film. So I go to L.A. And I had gone to school with a kid who had made it. Like, he was doing it. pretty good. He had been on a couple different TV shows. He had done a couple different

movies. He had dated a string of very, very, very famous women. And I saw him and I was like, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And I had no idea, again, what that even meant. But I was like, if he could do it, I can do it. And so we would go out all the time. There was his birthday party that we were at. I was very, very wasted. And I was talking to, like, like a few people about what it was like to live. At one point, I lived in New York in a model house with 16 guys, in a two-bedroom house with 16 guys in Long Island City. And I was telling the story of how crazy it was.

Like, you know, every morning is like somebody in the shower, somebody on the toilet, somebody brushing their teeth and somebody banging on the door. And like, that's just Tuesday. And this agent walks up to me and he's like, hey, are you an actor? And I'm like, of course I'm an actor. I'm in L.A., right? And so he's like, come to my office next week, bring your head shop, bring your resume. I literally got headshots off Craiglis that weekend because I had, I paid somebody $75

for headshots because I had no, I did not have headshots. And I had typed up every job I had since high school and gave him this resume. And I slide it all across his desk and he like puts his glasses down and he looks at me and he's like, you have no idea what the hell you're doing, do you? And I'm like, no, but I swear to you, I will figure it out. I want this. I will figure it out. Wow. And so he hit pockets me for about six or seven months. which is like he basically sends me out on auditions but doesn't officially represent me, which is such a weird thing. But he does that and I don't book anything.

I had never taken an audition class before. So I had no idea what I was doing. I literally would like do auditions and be looking straight in the barrel of like of the camera for my auditions. It had no idea. I remember auditioning for seventh heaven. If you guys remember seventh heaven. Oh yeah. I remember auditioning for seventh heaven and it was a very dramatic scene.

And the cast scene associate who was behind the camera. camera laughed. And I walked out and I was like, I brought some levity to it. Like, I thought I was clever. I thought I brought a, I brought a choice. So she loved it. And six months later, this dude calls me. He's like, listen, man, this isn't working out. Like, you're, you haven't gotten good feedback. You're not progressing in it. You haven't booked anything. And my immediate young, 23-year-old reaction was like, I don't want this. Like, what's out? I'm not doing this. You're not going to reject me. I reject you. I don't want to be driving all across L.A. like getting parking tickets because I don't have change for meters and you know all my lunch break

from work like whatever and so I ended up working for like four years just kind of bouncing around five years almost just bouncing around jobs in LA and I worked to retail and it's so transient you can like move up pretty quickly and I did that and I found myself as a west coast regional manager of a company and I had a territory that was Chicago down to Texas out to Hawaii I was in a different city every single week on the company's dime. I was 26 years old, 27 years old, and I was like, I'm out here. Like, this is amazing. It was the most amazing thing. You couldn't tell me I wasn't like living the life. And then I got to let go. And all I could think to myself was my boss called me, she had gotten let go. And she was like, they're probably going to let you go next.

And she was telling me that so I could call a headhunter to try to find another job. And all I could think to myself was I moved to LA to be an actor and I was a coward once again and I was too afraid to actually just go through the process. I was too afraid to go sit in class. I was too afraid to get rejected. I was too afraid to like just do the work. And if I was going to do retail, I could do it anywhere in the world. So why LA? And for me, that was this thing of like, just go do it. Just don't have the regret in life that you didn't try. because you know you love this thing and you keep coming back to it, so do it. And so I did.

I went and got in class. I was in class for like, I was probably 26. I was in class for like three and a half, four years, two years straight before I got representation. In the third year, I got rep. And I started auditioning a little bit. And then I started working pretty quickly. Pretty quickly I went from auditioning.

My first couple auditions ended up being test for network pilots, which was, which was pretty insane. That's huge. I mean, especially when you're, when you're starting out, that's like a, that's jumping up to, just for people who aren't familiar with it. That's like, um, just the stakes and the feedback is pretty immediate. I mean, that's like, that's not, that's not everybody's experience. Yeah, which is like, you know, which sucks, because as you know, like, you know, in a test,

essentially three or four people all get brought in for this one role, but all three or four people have signed a contract for five years for X amount of dollars. And you're like, what? I'm going to make that. This is crazy. And so the stakes are so high when you go in because all you're thinking about is like, this is a life-changing job. Like my life will never be the same.

I've made it if I booked this job. Like I'll get to do all the things I ever wanted to do and I'll be on TV and I'll make all this money and I'll be famous and all these like things that are not about the work at all whatsoever literally start to creep into your brain, which makes it. so horrible, the process is so horrible, and the process is also bad because, like, the four of us would all sit next to each other in a hallway

and then one by one go in the room and audition. So you also have to watch the person, you have to listen sometimes outside the door. Yeah, sometimes you can hear it, which is the worst. That's what kind of torture. They're like, oh, well, should I, should I, should I do that? He's bringing levity. I need to bring levity. I got to bring levy. He did it, so I got to do it.

It just becomes this, it's a, It's a horrible, horrible process. But luckily, my first, I would say in my first 20 auditions, five of them were testing for network comics. Wow. And from there, it was just kind of like I had booked a pilot for Comedy Central that didn't go. And then that next pilot season out, I went through pilot season, tested a bunch. And at the very end of pilot season, the game, which had been on the CW originally, and then had gone to BET, was entering its fifth season. They were about to have their 100th episode, and they were replacing two characters.

They're bringing in two new characters. And I had known the show. I had watched the show before. Never thought it was a show that I would get hired for at all. I had never thought about it as a even potential of an opportunity for me. And I got called into audition, and I auditioned for that job eight times. And on the eighth time was my final network test, and I booked her. And that was it.

After that, I was in Atlanta within a few months working and around all these craftsmen who, everyone on that cast, the main core of that cast had all done over most of them, this was their second or third show that had gone into 100 episodes. So most of them were in their like 300th episode, 250th episode of television. And for me, it was just an opportunity to learn. Like, the stakes, we also knew going into it that it was going to be the last season. the stakes were while they were high because it was my first job the stakes were also low because it wasn't the pressure of like trying to keep a show on the air or like did it did it fail because of me or whatever and so for me it was just an opportunity to go learn and play and try to just figure out this thing in real time in terms of like being on set and what it means to be on set

every single day and we ended up doing four more seasons and um it was an absolutely it was life changing. I mean, Mara Brocka Kiel, completely changed my life, for sure. So then take us to insecure? I am finishing the game, and they split our final season up into two seasons of 10 episodes. And I get a call. Actually, we're still airing. And a buddy of mine, a development exec, calls me and says, hey, have you read Issa Ray's news, script over at HBO and I was like no what is it he said it's called insecure you should read I'm going to send it to you there's a role in there that's perfect for you so he sends it to me that

night I read it that night and the next day I literally call my entire team and I'm like hey who knows isa who knows this printess penny guy who's the showrunner who knows the executives at HBO like how can I go get this job I want this job that was in January I don't audition for it until July is when they actually start auditioning that role. I go in and I am the second person to audition for that role. Which usually means

that you're not, like if you're going in that early, there's almost no way. It's not you. It's not you. You're not the guy. It's not going to happen. I'm the second person to audition for this role and I actually walked in and auditioned for two roles. So I auditioned for the Daniel role, which was in season

one in season two. And I auditioned for the Lawrence role, which obviously ran the whole series. And I wanted the Daniel role. I just sold a pitch to Sony for a TV show. And I was like, I'm going to go make my own show. I had no idea that development, most things that go in development don't get made. And development is like, obviously you sell a show and then you have go like do a story document and a outline and a couple drafts of the script. And then they decide if they want to move further. And I didn't know that most things die in development. A lot of stuff get sold in development and very few things get made.

But I was just determined that that's what it's going to be. So I don't hear anything. I go. I do the audition. I do both characters. I leave. And I'm out on a charity motorcycle ride in Ohio. And I get a phone call that like, hey, can you get back to L.A.

Because they want to test you for insecure. And I was like, insecure. Oh, the thing that I read for like six weeks ago, I was like, I thought that was done. And they were like, yeah, apparently they want to see you for. for it. So I go in and I audition against three guys. Alon Noel, who plays Daniel, who ends up playing Daniel and Insecure, and Neil Brown Jr., who ends up playing my best friend, Chad, in Insecure. The three of us test against each other. The three of us don't know each other. We all test against each other. And I walk out in the HBO offices at L.A. at the time were in

Santa Monica. And so for me to get back home to where I lived, I had to get on the 10, so I'm about to do an S&L skit for sure. I had to do, I had to get on the 10 and take that, like, a very long way to get to where I lived. But anyway, from where the HBO offices are to the 10 highway is about a 10-minute drive. And I would say within 13 minutes, I got called and they told me that the job was mine. Wow. After I walked out of the HBO offices. Lawrence was born.

Did you feel that when you were in there? I didn't. I didn't because I didn't understand because, you know, my, the only experience, not the only experience, I mean, I booked a pilot before that didn't go, but my experience of booking a show that that was a show, or I actually got to go to work every day was the game. And I auditioned for it eight times before I got it. So me auditioning one time and then coming to test felt like the craziest. It didn't feel my brain just couldn't really comprehend that that's what was happening. I was like, oh, this

feel so weird that like six weeks later they're calling me back for this thing and it's funny because like now going and having conversation like you know obviously we've now spent so much time together but like having conversations with them they were like oh that's him but they were like he was the second person we saw it can't be him there has to be more people out there like we got to see other people and it ended up that it was it ended up being me and so that that's how that thing kind of came along and it was obviously an absolutely amazing ride with people I absolutely love and I got to play a character that I'm so grateful that I got to that I got to do and affect people and make people love me and hate me and all of the

all of the above yeah he Lawrence has such a great arc and it's so believable like they they took their time I felt like with his growth and he has his sort of regressions I felt like the Lauren's character was handled really well but from season one to where he ends up it's really surprising like you wouldn't expect that I think from season which wasn't supposed to happen by the way I wasn't supposed to make it past season one. Really? Yeah. That character wasn't supposed to make it past season one.

Because the way he's written in season one, you're like, what a glow up for the rest of the. Yeah. It wasn't supposed to happen. Essentially, that kind of last scene in season one, which is the last couple of scenes, which are a phone call between Issa and Lawrence after a breakup. And then Issa going home to see that Lawrence isn't there, then cutting to Lauren having, Lauren's having sex with another woman. And I never understood would break the internet means until that moment.

I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever experienced in my life. It was just wild to see how much people, so many people had opinions. And there were such a visceral response to it, which was really, really cool. But that for the writers, when they went back to season two, they were like, oh, we have to, we have to solve for that. Like, we can't just leave that out there. like that that if it created that much conversation then like that is something that our community

and and at large we're talking about as people or we're not talking about as people and we should be talking about so like how do we go back and continue that conversation and so luckily I got to do a few more seasons yeah amazing yeah and we'll be right back As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends,

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we're mindful of time. So maybe we'll just talk one question about Top Gun, one question about Running Point, and one question at Duke and Roya. So obviously Top Gun, Massive, working with Tom Cruz is kind of a you know a unique special opportunity we're curious what are you caring with you from that experience or what you learned from him you've talked about how generous he is um yeah just what can you tell us about about that experience and working with tom yeah i i think it's really

it's really cool to see someone like that who's like such at the top of their game and has been for so long like love it so much and like still be a student and still care like he He can tell you five Korean filmmakers and seven French filmmakers and 10, like, new. Like, he's constantly watching stuff and, like, being inspired by stuff and the way people are using camera, the way people are using film, the way people are shooting action or drama or whatever it may be. And I think it's just really cool to see somebody, again, at that level, still care in the way that he does. And then the other thing that's really amazing is for him to be so gracious and giving with his time and into helping you develop the thing that you want to develop in your craft, right? His big thing with us was like, I'm going to show you everything I do as I prepare for film. Take with you what you want.

This is what's worked for me in my career. These are the things I've learned to ask for or I've learned to need or how I focus or prepare or eat or train and like, you know, take with you what you will. And it was really cool to be able to, like, you know, go to those paces with him and kind of pull some of that stuff away and take it with you as you kind of go to your like to your next thing. And as you train for the next thing or as you, you know, got to go into ketosis for your next role or whatever it is. Like there's so many little things that we were able to kind of pull from our experience with him. And then even post that, like still being able to call him and say, hey, could you watch this thing and like tell me what you think about it? Or, hey, I did this movie called Freaky Tales where I had to, I play this guy, his name is Eric C.P. Floyd, he's a professional basketball player who played for the Warriors. But in this telling of the story, he's basically like a samurai. He's, he is Uma Thurman and Kill Bill, for lack of a better, like, example. And he goes on in this movie to, like, exercise all of those skills where I had never done martial arts before. I had never done weapons before. And, like, all of a sudden, and I'm training six hours a day. And, like, how do I keep, how do I not fall apart? Like, how do I not let inflammation take my body out or hurt myself? How am I eating?

How am I resting? All these things. And, like, I just sent him a text message. And he was like, this is what I have done. And it's worked for me. Wow. And I was able to incorporate some of those things. Wow.

It was life changing. That's amazing that you're like, you know, yeah, that's amazing. And you're on texting. That you have that with him and that he also offers that. That's really cool. You know, I mean, you know, you don't get that that often in this industry. No, you really don't. You don't get it.

Most people are like, no, I do my thing. And then you just show up and you say some words together. So, like, you know, it was really, really cool to have that and to have someone that you feel like you can call. By the way, he'll read a script and be like, yeah, here's my notes. That is wild. You know what I mean? Like, here's a thing. It's like that, where you're like, he's truly been like, come to me.

me for whatever you need. Like, I'm happy to help you in your process. Does he have more hours in the day? Has he unlocked? Like, what? I ask him all the time. I'm like, man, you must sleep. Like, one of the things Miles Teller and I talked to him about this while we were on

top of the U.S. Theater Roosevelt at 700 miles out at sea shooting something. And we were like, man, do you sleep like five hours a day? And he's like, no, I always get eight hours of sleep. Wow. Always. And you're like, how, bro? How?

Because you did 77,000 things today. So how did you get eight hours of sleep? But his whole thing is, if I don't get my sleep, then I can't do all the things that I do. Actually, I really feel that. That is, I have had to be more methodical about sleep in the last three weeks than I ever have. And I have to say it's kind of unlocking something. Happened to have lost it last night because the little one had a nightmare. But yeah, that's real.

in running point you play a basketball coach and you told a story earlier of how actually basketball and wanting to like get out of the drills not wanting to be doing that intense practice was what kind of led you to theater and to acting what was it like to bring those two worlds back together it was cool it was really really cool it's it's pretty wild to like go to work every day in a basketball court is your office yeah that was that was really wild Like every single day I would go to set and I was always on a court. And I was like, oh, this is, this is cool. I like this is like, dribbling a ball and I'm like dribbling a ball and I split my pants at one point.

And they were like, bro, could you just chill like you're the coach? Yeah, yeah. But it was fun because I also got to think about all the coaches in my life who like, you know, in some ways had been like mentors for me in different ways. Some I couldn't stand and some I loved. And even whether it was the ones I couldn't stand or the ones I loved, like there was still something to take from that. And so like that was fun to kind of get to pull. from that and put into this character. And also, I mean, this character was ultimately modeled after Phil Jackson.

And so it was also, you know, I think of my childhood and how much I loved the Bulls in the 90s. And you couldn't get away from the Bulls if you turned a television on for the most part. You couldn't get away from Mike for sure. And so it was cool to also just kind of think about like the things that I saw and feel and loved at a distance. And like, how could I bring those into this character? But it's fun. It's a fun job. It's actually a really, really fun job because everyone on that set really loves each other. And everyone is so perfect for their roles. So it's actually a really, really cool experience. That's so great, Jay, that you're having that experience. Okay, tell us about Duke and Royette. Previews just started. You're doing live theater. You had run away from New York and theater. What's that like? It's crazy to come back all these years later and do it. And also get to do it at this theater, at the Lucille Lortel, which is like this jewel of a theater in the West Village that's had, So many amazing productions over the last couple of years. Productions that have gone to Broadway.

I mean, O'Mary, Colby and one of them who obviously just won a Tony last week. Like, it's really cool to be here. It's also terrifying. No. There's nobody to yell cut. There's nobody to save you. There's nobody to edit around a thing. If you take a pause, that pause lives in the show.

Like, we're not cutting that pause out. Like, it's just, it is what it is. We can't cut to somebody else. else. So it is terrifying. But in a lot of ways, it's also like, I don't know, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier that I feel like, you know, part of the reason I do this is to be challenged. It is to push myself and it is to be a little bit afraid. Like, I could continue to do the same things over and over again. And there's nothing wrong with that. I have no judgment on that. It's just not what I've chosen and why I want, why I want to do this. But

Duke and Roya, for me, it's this play, you know, it's about a rapper who goes on a USO tour to Afghanistan, excuse me, in like 2017. And he ultimately falls for his interpreter who's a woman who's like sneaking on and off base dressed as a man because at that time, women were not allowed to work. And so it's this very, I keep saying this. And I'm sure Link Letter is probably having a heart attack somewhere. But it's literally for me, it's like before sunrise said in Afghanistan. It's these two people who just spend all this time together walking around.

and talking and in kind of questioning each other's culture in each other's views and traditions and the worlds that these two characters come from, they ultimately start to learn more about themselves and their own identity and like who they are as people. And they fall for each other. They're both for the first time kind of seen and letting someone see them for who they really are. And I don't know, it's a really fun expiration. I think my tie to the military is fun. I've done some USO tours before so like that's been fun I've never gotten to do music in a project before I rap four times in this but I do four original songs in this play which is crazy um so like that's a ton of fun and also terrifying um but also like I get my rap persona out you know what I mean so like

it's like I get to live it for like you know three minutes at a time and then and then I get to tuck it away and come back and you know just be me so it's fun it's a really great play I'm really proud of it and excited, and we built a really amazing team. Our team is wildly diverse. We have two people from Afghanistan on our team. We have, I mean, literally every culture, someone from every culture is represented, not every culture, but quite a few cultures,

are representative. So like even the diversity we were able to build both in front of house and back a house is pretty, is pretty spectacular and pretty special. Amazing. Yeah. Well, we do have a classic, final question that we ask for all people.

If you could go back to 12-year-old, Jay, what would you say or do, if anything? Just enjoy the ride. Would Mikey say that or would you say it? I mean, I don't think Mikey would say it. Mikey is, Jay. After all this time, yeah. After all this time.

Yeah. I think it's, it's, I say this and I understand how like it has probably been overused in so many ways, but I do believe life is the journey. Like I just believe that every, you know, if you think of we're all on a path and your path is going to lead you wherever it's meant to lead you. And so I do believe that at times, you know, we hit a fork in the road and you can go one way or another and sometimes you go away and it still seems like it's taking you a further and further. away from your path, but then ultimately you kind of end up on it. And I think that like those kind of trails and those moments where you're off your path, they're meant to be lived. They're meant to be experienced. There's something for you to take out of those, whether it's and be present in those moments that ultimately you're going to get you back to alignment and get you back to

the thing that you ultimately want to pursue or do or chase or wherever you want to be, which hopefully is like, you know, your happiest higher self. And so I just think I would tell 12-year-old me to just enjoy it. That's lovely. Thank you. You can get tickets to Jay Ellis's new play at Duke and Roya.com. And you can follow Jay online at J.R. Ellis. That's J-A-Y-R-Ellis.

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Bye.