Podcrushed - Jenny Han

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

This week the brilliant Jenny Han—creator of To All the Boys I've Ever Loved, XO Kitty and The Summer I Turned Pretty—shares the real story behind the letters she wrote to all the boys she'd ever loved. She also talks about the importance of protecting her young actors, investing in new talent, and how she convinced Taylor Swift to let her use a track off the unreleased 1989 (Taylor’s Version!) Follow Podcrushed on socials:InstagramTwitterTikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Oh my God Oh, wow So I pick up this huge boulder of ice and I drop it right about his head No, no, no, no, Jenny. And I'm like, oh, like, laugh.

I'm like, ready to like, I'm like, guys! Oh, no. And he was like really, really mad. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts, I'm Penn. I'm Nava, and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. You're really cute, and then I'd be catching feelings and crying all the time.

Cute. So excited to be together today. I asked everyone to bring a middle school memento. I thought it could be fun to sort of see a physical object. For you listeners, you're going to have to travel over to YouTube if you want to see it. But we'll describe them as well. But something that sort of, yeah, was emblematic of our middle school experiences. It's in my bag.

Yeah, yeah. You can get some real life content right now. This is me. rummaging to my actual backpack Do you hear this? It's not ASMR It's just like us No, he's not

But you know There's a backpack involved You see this Can you It's a baby shoe I found this on the way here And I have no idea Who it is now

Stop It's a baby shoe For those who are It's a wee buck Which is adorable There is some black mold growing on it because it's 36 years old or 35 maybe if I was wearing it when I was um one but yeah the joke is is that I have absolutely nothing left of my middle school years that I didn't attend

so yeah this is this is I was at my mom's wow had no I was like I don't know how where anything if anything is left from that stage of life I don't know where it would be or what it is but this this little this little baby shoe just one not both things He was just, oh yeah, oh yeah, no, he got picked up by the rapture. And this is, you know, this is like, in fact, when I found this, it was spinning like the top in inception on a table. It's so cute. Penn is actually an avatar. The real pen was up in the rapture.

Okay, I'm wearing mine. So I'm going to stand up, take off my jacket. Wow. The only reason that I even have, this is the shirt from when I was 12 years old, is because my dad appropriated it and kept it in great condition. I don't keep anything. I throw things away that I shouldn't. So I think this is the only, like, real thing I have from middle school besides a yearbook. But this is a shirt that says, Tayer de la Juventud Bahai.

And it has, for those who are not watching, it has a nine-pointed green, like bright green star in the middle and a little frog called a cocky. And the nine-pointed star represents, like, it's a symbol in the Baha'i faith. And the cookie is the national, is like the most beloved little animal creature in Puerto Rico. It's a little frog that goes, cookie, cookie, at night. It actually says cookie. Yeah, the frog makes that noise. And it's called cookie? Yeah.

He goes cookie, cookie. So its name is on a monopoeaetic. Yes, it's pronounced just like that. But basically, when I was like 12 to 15, I was in a youth workshop where we would go around the island and perform these really cringy, terrible dances on like social justice themes. And I remember one vividly was like an anti-drug dance. It was to the song, Turnaround. And I was almost always the youngest person in that.

workshop. So I was always like the kid that was in turmoil in any dance. I just remember I was like in the middle of the dance and I would be really horrifyingly embarrassing. You were the addictive kid? I was the kid who was like suffering because her mom was addicted. And I was in the middle like just what an era. I hope nobody has video of that but I have so many fond memories of Baha'i Youth Workshop in Puerto Rico. Shout out Tahira. Shout out Fernando. Cute. Well, similar to you guys, I barely have anything from my youth. My mom, like, famously throws everything away at the first chance she gets. Like, all my yearbooks, gone.

Shredded. No, she didn't tread them. But she should have. Can you imagine? That would be hard. Why isn't this going through? But I did pick up this pen. I have vivid memories of sitting in, like, seventh grade science class, and not listening

to anything that was going on. just working so hard at trying to change my handwriting. I was like, I hate my handwriting. It's not cute. And it needs to be cuter. And really just like, did it work? No, no. It would like, it would last for a few days.

And then, you know, halfway through a page, I would revert back to my old handwriting. And ever since then, ever since I can remember, I've hated my handwriting. You know who else hates Sophie's handwriting? I mean, apart from her whole family. Oh, my God. That's so rough. so it's so patently untrue as well it's funny jenny hann is our guest she's a new york times number one bestselling author best known for her relatable portrayals of teenage life and love you

might know her iconic trilogy to all the boys i've loved before was adapted into a series of films by netflix she's also the creator of the summer i turn pretty which uh has a second season out this week on prime video and her rom-com series exo kitty it's on top of the world right now as is Jenny. What I really loved about her was that she's a writer writing about this time of life. So this is actually one of my favorite interviews we've had on the show, I think. Yeah, and I think because Jenny is a writer, maybe because she's immersed in

story so much of her life, she came with so many good stories of her own about middle school and she told them so well. I feel like I need to write Jenny a letter to thank her because I feel like Penn was about to throw in the towel on Pod Crush until we had this interview. Yes, thank you, Jenny. Thank you, Jenny on. Oh, you my career. So, uh, so you don't go anywhere. Don't touch that dial. We will be right back. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louis. Nom Nom, does this with food

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Learn more at trynom.com. com slash podcrushed spelled try n-o-m dot com slash podcrushed a 15-year-old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer I use my front teeth to saw on the rope in my mouth he's been convicted of murdering two young women but suspected of many more maybe there's another one in that area and now new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dull Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode.

Hi, Jenny. Hi. Welcome. So excited to meet you guys. Jenny, I just want to say, just in case you were worried you were coming on some kind of fledgling podcast, I have a badge. Okay? I just got this today This is me

A person who since middle school Has been professional Not really had like normal life experiences When I get something like a badge I want to do this too This is It's by the way The least official looking badge

It doesn't look like you that much Really? From here Is it because I'm smiling? Maybe because my eyes are bad It looks a little bit like that guy from He's on The Good Place Jason Madzuckus

You're not the only one I guess the idea is squint and we look exactly the same You don't even have to squint You just have to be on TikTok I guess You have dedicated your life professionally creatively To exploring the same time of life do we do So before we get into what brought you there As a fully fledged adult

Let's just start when you were there you know what what was 12 and 13 year old jenny hon like um 12 year old me was i like to read a lot and i like to bake it's kind of not that different i guess from now today yeah same dress or probably a spree or maybe gap gap kids yeah i like to read i like to bake and um that's that was that was my middle school vibe um i would say you know middle school actually wasn't like the best it was a little bit you know bullyish at that time i was like the only Asian kid in my school besides like one other guy um and like my cousin um was your cousin the same age no no and that the cousin was an elementary school i would say and then middle school um it wasn't there really weren't

any Asian people around. So I definitely did get, like, this one guy, Mike, used to throw spitballs at me on the bus for being Asian. For being Asian. Yeah, for being Asian. Yeah, yeah. But he was also just kind of a tyrant. So middle school kind of tough also.

I was bad at math, like really bad at math. So then my whole schedule, you know how they used to do it? So it's like the honors kids were with the honors kids, right? And then you'd have the lunch, you'd have like gym, you'd have your like elective. And so because I was bad at math. math my whole thing was like a little bit messed up so then I was always at the lunch with like you know kids

who were wanting to beat me up well I'm really no this is this is what we do sure but it was fine it was it's well you know to me that's like it's fine on one hand because like yeah you're like you're fine you got through it and then and then and then you know

I don't want to suggest that success makes everything okay but when you you strike me as a person who's like you're a nice case of somebody who seems like they've made it because they're finding like alignment right like what you do seems to speak to who you are I think so I think that I'm very sensitive and so I would say like I've often felt like a little bit like I have a like my personal antenna is a little bit like finely tuned so sometimes it can be a bit much

when you're just picking up other people's vibes all the time and being like I can see this person's a little bit annoyed or I want to you know um cheer this person up and I think it helps me with storytelling because you're constantly I think coming from a place of empathy and just thinking what it's like to be in someone else's shoes um but it could also be really exhausting there's also this sort of like old saying I don't know how old it is or how true it is but never judge a no no no no no no no no no no no I'm not capable of that he puts it to every author, Jenny. So embarrassing. Never judge a book by its cover. No, no, I was going to say never judge

a man. I don't know if this is actually now, like, a problematic phrase. No, it's something like until you've walked in their moccasins or something. Like it's claiming to be an old native adage. I don't know if that's true or not. Oh, I've never heard that. I've heard like what, walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Yeah, something, something like that. So we've gone way left to know. Cut cut. Cut. I heard that one. What I was going to say was, are you like any of your characters or which ones? All of them.

All of them. I think the never right, I mean, write what you know, I think great. But it's also like write what you're interested in, right? What, like, you're excited about. I think all my characters, in fact, people,

it always makes me laugh because like the more like annoying characters, people are like, oh, like, I hate that character. You know, like, that's part of me. That's me. That's me. little like the annoying things that you know about yourself that you can sort of like infuse it's just because it's just like you know humanity just making it feel really real i don't know people

often ask me about writing for young people specifically and like why and um how is it different and i just don't see it as different at all i think that um people are people and it's just like um i don't i don't approach like character in that way i recently watched the summer i turned pretty I actually texted Penn and Nava and I was like, I'm sobbing. I'm clearly Jenny Hahn's exact target audience because it was really moving. And it's also so sweet to like go back to that time of like high school. But there was a line in it where Belly's mom says to her that we have to treasure our friendships because boys will come and go or relationships will come and go. And we have to hold on to our friendships.

And I was wondering, that line struck me and I was wondering for you what were your friendships like? around that time of life? Super intense. And I think I was always someone who had, like, best friends. But I wasn't, like, I had a lot of ardent, like, crushes on people. I was definitely, like, you know, that's why I brought my, you asked me to bring something from middle school. And I brought my hat box.

If anyone has watched to all the boys of love before, you will know that the story is centered around a girl who, writes love letters to these unrequited crushes but she keeps them in the hatbox but then her sister mails them all out and they get sent but they were really for her eyes only this is my hatbox

that I had where I put my letters so actually the story is... That's amazing partly true or did that? Yeah they didn't get sent out it was like a what if they got sent out what a great premise like to come so from your own experience and to be so simple could you just clue us into

like what one of those letters would have been like, what you might have said to one of these ways. Oh, yeah. You know why? Because, so when the book first came out, I was like, you know, it'll be so fun if I, like, read one of the letters on tour at the, like, party. I'm like, you know, everyone's going to love it.

And then I get up there and I start reading the letter. And it's so raw. And it's like, dear, you know, you think that, like, you think you know me. Oh, wow. It was like, I know you, and I know that, you know, you are a boy who, you know, it was really, like, deeply, like, looking at this person and, like, feeling so, like, these really strong, like, deep wells of emotion about this person. And I said, I'm not good at blah, blah, blah, or this or that, but I know I am good at, like, writing. So I'm going to do what I do best and, like, write you this letter and, like, tell you how I feel about you. and it was so intense

And did you read it before you No I was just getting up there Literally it was like no book paper You just thought you just taking a swing Blind Yeah and then I'm looking out And everyone's laughing loving it And I felt like my face was so red

I don't actually get embarrassed that easily I was so embarrassed Like I'm talking now and I can feel my face Like flushing of the stuff that I said And because it was so real And I didn't think anyone was going to ever hear it it was for me you know and he was never it was being so like vulnerable open like and naked

in this letter and then I did never I never did it again I was like yeah that's the end of that even though people loved it for me it was it was never meant for anyone else to hear it it was just for me to like say goodbye to this person Jenny I have a story mine god's that so when I was in college I had an ardent crush I love that phrase like beyond that like just almost obsessed with this guy. I, like, really want to say his name because he has a great name, but I won't.

And we had, like, a situation. It was, like, confusing, murky, and it ended. And one of my best ones at the time, Ariana was like, just write him an email with, like, everything you would say to him, just for yourself, don't send it, save it as a draft. So I did that. I, like, wrote the email. I put his name in the two bar, but I saved it as his name on the two part. I know. But I saved it as a draft. And it was like as if I had written a letter to my therapist, like something you would never actually say to someone. even if you were bold enough. And we had Outlook at the university

and it had a glitch where after 24 hours it would send all your drafts. So it sent him the letter and I didn't find out until I got his response. I was so humility. I like almost dropped the class we had together. It was humiliating.

He was quite decent about it. Wait, and then you had a class together. Oh yeah, we had two classes. We had French and English together. Oh, so it was truly one of the most embarrassing things. It was like you had a real thing. It wasn't like he did. I would say not really.

It was more one side. We were, like, friends, and he was super, super flirty. He would ask me out once in a while, but he would never, like, kiss or anything. So it was confusing to me, which was, like, part of what came out in that email. But, oh, so embarrassing. That is truly, like, a top five humiliating moment. Yeah. I would agree with you.

And then, of course, he's like, this girl is crazy. Like, this is really a lot. Did you explain? No, I never told them. I never told them. No, you didn't think that was better to me. I wasn't planning to me. to send you this email and there's a glitch in outlook

I was like he's going to think that's true that's true I just never brought it up never brought it up we've never talked about it for mine though after the movie came out everyone thought they were like I definitely was getting a lot of random emails from guys for my past really everyone was like

fishing I think hoping was that about me yeah literally literally everyone thought they were like Peter Kivinsky it was like I know what you're doing I haven't heard from you in like years and then it was like hey congrats on everything. I think they were hoping for that little like nugget

so they could just have that as an anecdote to tell people, oh, that character is like me. Did you actually ever tell any of the five boys who they were? No. No. They don't deserve to know. Yeah, keep that. Yeah, respect. Stick around. We'll be right back.

All right, so let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten. And I don't mean in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like, you want your day to go well, right?

You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself. I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way. A spouse, a pet. You know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting this sleep,

and I'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down. I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed

and could see the differences with. Um, the three that I use, I use, uh, the, the, what is it called? Liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. Um, comes out in the packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. I do it. I think it tastes great.

Um, really good for gut health and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. Um, and then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, for, I think, mood and stress. Sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And, yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping.

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to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Well, we've already kind of jumped to this, but we ask every guest to tell us about their first love and first heartbreak. Would you mind sharing that story with us? I guess I would say that that first letter, who it was for, I was definitely, it was a heartbreak. Not that it was like we were ever, like, together, but it was like, I was so just, like, obsessed with him. And he wasn't very nice. And I think I don't, at that time, like you, as a young person, I think you can sort of like fixate on somebody and you kind of like imbue them with all these qualities that you think they have and like you read so much into every little, you know, it's like, you want this piece of gum and you're like, yeah, like, I do. Oh, gum is huge.

I thought you were to say something less. Gum is like. Or, oh, you know what the best was, was like when they were like listening to music, their headphones and then you're like, then they're like, you want to hear. and then you're like sharing the headphones like those on the bus? So interesting moment yeah on the bus

and then you're sitting there and you're like heart is racing you're like can he hear my heart like beating like so fast right now and you're just like yeah I love

I love Pearl Jam I love like I love it yes amazing so you're saying you didn't love no I did in fact like then yeah I did

I did after I was listening to it on his little like sunny disc man for sure and when he would call I would be like I'd like have the music on in the background like oh hey like

I was just listening to some jam you know just just start let me turn down the PJ like Jeremy's thing really loud in the background I had a lot of good Chris for the Mill

one might say I had written I wrote a play about him wrote many poems when I was in high school a song there was a lot that I like put into this

and do you play music no can i ask jenny we've heard a little bit about how you felt about him did he know how you felt yeah he knew okay for sure and he and he wasn't kind on top of that no he definitely wasn't he liked you know he liked the power dynamic yeah where it was like just the like it would be that thing oh my god i hope he doesn't i don't think i don't even know if he listens to podcasts i doubt i'm gonna go ahead and take a stab at he's not listening okay to this podcast not because of you jenny because of us yeah no no no no no no no because of us

You know the thing where they would like You would talk to them on the phone for like hours But then you'd see them Like at school or wherever And then they would It would be like You would just like Your eyes would like not even like meet

In the hallway Because it gets like at night on the phone You can just say anything to somebody You know So true right And you just get really like deep with somebody And then for some reason It's really embarrassing to have been so vulnerable

Before I remember that I remember having so many long conversations and always on a telephone that had a chord. And I'm just wondering, I'm not imagining, you know, kids on like their... I think they are kind of like FaceTiming. Yeah, FaceTime. But don't you think that that drastically changes the kind of vulnerability you can have?

A voice, like you could be, like, it's like a voice in the dark. It's really intimate. Yes. So different. Like, you don't have to... It's true. It doesn't matter what you look like or what you're doing. You're just like the voice and you can not like.

look at someone's eyes. You can just say stuff. Completely. That's what I mean is like I know that FaceTime or whatever they quit with Snapchat, whatever it is, they're up, they have it on and they're seeing everything, but it's not there's something that feels to me like the way, no, it's not as intimate and also they can move around, you couldn't move around the same way. So you really like, you were just in a different headspace then, you know? I really am recalling now the, the way that I would talk to, especially girls. Here's a question for you. Were you into them or were you just like someone to talk to?

No, no, no, no, totally into them. No, see, I had, I had, because I was a bit younger, I had the same kind of relationship that you're talking about, like, I was definitely not having any girlfriends. I was, I was, I was, I was, it was always having crushes on an unrequited friend. And I don't know how to love with a friend.

But they knew? I mean, I don't know. No, I think I was very good at hiding my emotions. Got a lot of practice at home, you know, wink, wink. Stupid joke. No, I did. I did, I think I was a little bit stoic. And again, I think I'm, I've carried that into adulthood.

And, you know, the work of being a human as being less stoic. But I don't know. You seem very chill. yeah i mean i again i think i'm really good at at managing my outward appearance so that i seem super calm all the time okay but i have the same emotions as everyone else and i actually get excited oh really don't you know how i mean like like well you have but you've just not been aware yeah it's not been revealed to us like like i like i cannot use an exclamation point it is so uncharacteristic of me i've actually

she started. In the last two years or so, I do use them because I'm like, my God, you know. I guess everybody wants this for me. Yeah, that's what everybody wants. That'll make this, I'll paper this over, but yeah, so anyway. I'm often removing. You know, I'll for like five and like,

not threes, probably. But I'm like, they don't need all this, and I think as a woman sometimes, too, you're like so tone-policing yourself too, and it's like, I have to be friendly, but maybe I just want to be more matter facts, you know? So I'm like, you know, I'm just going to take that

away. Yeah. To do the period. Yeah. But sometimes I really do want to be friendly. And then I have this like, back and forth in my head, and I'm like, no, I'm keeping them. I'm going to have five exclamation points. I have to remind myself that not every text message needs an emoji.

I'm like, always like, what's the emoji for this one? Yeah. You know what? The young people will like clown you for that. Oh, really? Yeah, they're not doing those. Really? Yeah. Weirdly, I, you know what? I am realizing there's a few you're right and they're not

you know I think they see it as like a millennial yeah I mean far be it from me to say I don't know but I think that's the vibe I think so true totally right it's not and if you do use an emoji there's like very specific ones and there's like the eggplant I think Gen Z will use

am I wrong about that that's no maybe that's Gen Z way in you think it could be millennial yeah that's probably millennial I feel so stupid well we do before we move on to career, we do have that question of

an embarrassing story from your middle school. Are we circling back? It doesn't have to be the story you were thinking about. But we do ask every guest to share in this story. The thing I was actually a more recent thing. Okay. An embarrassing story from middle school. So, I definitely had a question

this guy. We were on this ski trip, like, a bunch of people. And well, you remember like when you were, like, anywhere with snow and it was like the thing people were like snowball fights and then like you know it was an opportunity for like guys to be just

pelting you with snowballs and people could just sort of like be flirty in the snow and I had glasses so I was like oops not the face I got so mad I remember one guy like got me right in the face and my glasses broke and I was there told his dad I was like he broke my glasses

like these are my eyes It's not cool. I did. I did go to his dad. I was at church and I went and found his dad and I was like, your son just broke my glasses. Then his dad fixed him for me. Anyway, so the story is,

we were on the ski trip. People are like, you know, doing the snowball thing and like running around. And then the guy that I liked who had been throwing snowballs at me, he was below and I was like on an upper level deck because it was a ski lodge, right? And I saw him below and I'm like two stories above. And I saw this huge, like, ice flow where I was like, oh, I'm going to get you.

And I grabbed it. It was so big that I picked up with bulletin. Oh, my God, no, no, no. Is he alive? He's alive. No, he's, it's a fair question. I was just, like, being so dumb. It was, like, where your brain wasn't fully.

Yeah, I totally understand. Processing, like, what's happening? No, I get that. You're like, this is cute. This is cute. Let me, let me eat. Oh, wow. So I pick up this huge boulder of ice, and I totally.

and I drop it right about his head. No, no, no, no, Jenny. And I'm like, oh, like, laugh. I'm like, ready to, like, I'm like, guys. Oh, no. And he was, like, really hurt. He was really mad. Like, he, like, hit him on the head.

It was really heavy. He stood up, and he was so mad. And I was like, oh, shit. Can I say, yeah. Yeah, you can show. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. Every episode has a little E.

Okay, okay. So then, um, I didn't realize, I mean, he was really actually enraged. And, um. Oh, my God. And he wasn't nice at all. And then he started chasing after me Like really mad Oh my god

It was like Then it turned suddenly a little like Yeah Yeah It took a turn. I mean were you running I was running for my life But there's all this ice

And so I was like Running through And then everyone's like playing cards And then hang out like What are you doing? I'm like help me help me Help me Tell me this is like the revenant

People thought we were just like in a flirtation No not at all He's bleeding It wasn't that you're just ripping on attempted to murder him though and he was serious and then he did finally grab me and then he like pinned my arms behind my back and then his friend

like there's snowballs at me oh my gosh and then like I know and that was really embarrassing yeah that's so brutal and then I like he like I like slipped and then my hands like sort of burned on the ice and then I was mad and embarrassed and he was sort of standing above and I like

I like reached out his sweater and like yanked it really hard. Like, you know those, like, nice structure sweaters, a guy's wear? Structure. Whoa. Yeah, it was like the nice weave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I yanked it really hard and, like, ripped it. Like, I don't even know what leg I had to stand

on. Why was I so mad? Because I was the one who almost killed him. Yeah. I was humiliated. So then I lashed out. It's fair. And got a hunk of a sweater. And then it was it was it. But then all day long, I was just really embarrassed. And people were like, yeah, it was kind of on you that you, like, like, nobody had any sympathy for me.

I was talking to all my girlfriends I was like nobody had my back nobody was there for me you guys were just like flirting with people and like playing cards and nobody like cared like what happened to me and people were like you get what you get kind of yeah yeah wow

so that was that's my story that's a great story that could have gone in a very sad direction so really I like how morally ambiguous it is yeah you know because for all sides yeah because he did he did initiate some kind of

you know unfair I just took it to a level sometimes. It's like, yeah, you think you're being flirty. And then, like, they say something like, oh, your ears. And then you go, oh, you're... And then you say something really cutting and you still feel like you're doing a flirty thing. And then people were like, wow, that was really, like, too much. We're given so many mixed messages, too, about, like, what is flirting?

You know, it's like, oh, if a boy's mean to you and then, like, he's really into you. And, like, actually, it's, like, not the right messaging, I don't think. Totally. It's never been my instinct, and it doesn't actually feel good. good to genuinely be made fun of, you know, even in the name of humor. Like, I don't know. It's an interesting cultural thing that we, they were all working with. I agree. I wonder, because I think it's important for young people to have mentors, or it means a lot for young people to have adults in their lives who will encourage them.

And I wonder if you had anyone who encouraged you to write or to pursue creative writing. Okay. This is an interesting story, and it's, I think, because it's not like a black and white story, it's not just a feel good story. It's, you know, like, life is gray. I had this teacher in elementary school who would always, like, praise my stories and say, like, what a beautiful writer I was. And even where in my yearbook, she wrote, I'm going to see her name on a book one day. And so we had these little, those notebooks in our desk, and you would. write your stories and mine would always be missing because she'd be showing him off in the teacher's lounge um but i remember this one day where we were doing was the first day of like long division and i as i previously said i'm like not the best at math and she called me up to the board and then like it was the first day okay so yeah like and i was nervous and so um like i didn't get it right and she like grabbed my face um really okay she grabbed my face really hard for the chin and like dug her nails into the skin

What? Why can't you understand? And then all the kids were laughing and stuff Like even my friends because And my friend Jessica afterwards was like It was because it looked funny because your face got like You know so yeah I understand Yeah it was that But it's still like it's still like hurt

When everyone was laughing And the point of the story is to say that like I believed her when she said I was a good writer And then I believed her when she said I was like bad at math And I think it's like When you're a kid and like an adult tells you something yourself I think that you really do absorb that and believe it you know so yes I saw myself as a really good writer um because she was always encouraging that and then I was like oh I suck

at mass from that moment and I never really felt that way I think until that moment and you just kind of have that like self-fulfilling prophecy the story that you tell yourself is I'm bad at this but I'm good at this yeah yeah well I was going to say actually her grabbing your face is way more impactful coming from a teacher who who had encouraged you so much like it hurts way more you know if it's a teacher who's already mean who you know you can expect that from

then but the inverse is also true right because because she was so mean when she was telling me how good I was then I was like I must be like awesome because she doesn't hold back yeah like she's so mean and like abusive the ironic thing is like as a former teacher

it's like you know that if a student's not understanding It's your fault. You need to do a better job explaining. I mean, it's really intense that she had that reaction. It says a lot about how she's feeling about herself. She's old school. I think the only reason I'm even telling the story because I think she's passed away.

And I saw her at like a Burger King years later. I think I was like in college. She came up to me and recognized me, which, you know, probably because there weren't that many Asian kids, I guess. She came up to me. She's like, Jenny, like I'm. I'm so proud of you. I always knew you were going to, like, do well. And I was like, thank you. And that was it. And I felt like, I wasn't going to say anything like, oh my God, you were like so abusive in me. Because like she had a story in her mind of what kind of teacher she was. So I just want to like let her keep that, she, that idea of herself. Because at that point, I think she was retired. I think she may have been pushed out because of she was like squeezing kids' faces. Yeah, like, she had, like, grabbed in, like,

a girl in my neighborhood and stuff, too. Oh, my gosh. But it was back in the day. Yeah, back in the day when all that was fully acceptable. And we'll be right back. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look.

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But actually, I have a question for you. Sure. I, you know, I have like two TV shows, and I also have, my books were adapted into films. Yeah. Yeah, we get it. We get it. You're a hugely successful. All right, what? What's your question?

My point is... I'm just an actor, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh-huh, yes. With young people, the stories about young people. Yeah. And, you know, so it's always like... I really like the discovery of, like, finding, like, people who are just starting out and who haven't had, like, a big career yet. I really like finding, like, new talent. I think it's really exciting, and, like, I feel really privileged to be able to do that.

And with my show, the summer I turned pretty, most of the cast, from any of them, it was, like, their first job. Yeah. And I think I saw, to all the boys, how, like, it was, like, literally overnight. like Noah Cincinnati, he had I don't know a few hundred thousand followers and then he was like

15 million followers in the course of like a week literally a week and even for me as the writer was like I had my really cozy safe community of my readers

and I was really open with them online and we had this great relationship that felt like they really knew me and then suddenly I think having like a hit Netflix movie there was just like millions of like people who had seen it and then knew about me

in a way that I felt really like exposed and I didn't feel safe to be just so open online anymore and so I think with Summer I turned pretty which is my first TV show I really had that experience in my mind of how shocking that was and like a little traumatic

so I was always with them I'm really careful and just thinking about them and wanting them to have like just be able to still have their lives I guess and so my question for you is do you look back

with like having that huge I remember when Gossip Girl came out that huge it was everywhere all the billboards everything on the subway do you wish is there anything that you wish that people had like told you or done for you to help you kind of ease into

becoming a huge like celebrity it's a great question it is I mean there's a good answer somewhere nothing immediately comes to mind because I feel like the whole challenge of fame specifically which is different from any other kind of success

I think like celebrity fame is that you just cannot possibly be prepared for it until you've experienced it and then it's a long depending on the nature of your own celebrity how long you last, all this stuff.

I think if anything, for me specifically, I think I would have said... See, because I'm older me, what I would have done is grabbed my face like that and been like, you fucking listen to me, okay? No one else can do this to you, but I can do this to you.

Listen, you don't have to prove yourself. You won't, you can't... it's just not a part of the equation. You don't try to prove yourself in the space of an interview, certainly. And then... Prove yourself how, like, as an actor or like... Yeah, I don't know. A smart person.

What is anybody trying to prove them? I mean, yeah, I guess it's like probably intelligence, talent, credibility, which all just comes to self-worth, which means like if we're in any situation, I think, trying to prove ourselves, or trying to prove our self-worth, which means we have low self-worth, and that probably identifies more people than it doesn't,

people with struggling with feelings of low self-worth. And so if I could somehow impart to that 20-year-old who'd just taken that role, like, yeah, it's also a different time. I mean, especially, how old was Noah when this was happening? Noah? I think he was like 20. I want to say he was 22. Okay, that's well, yeah. So that's, I wasn't sure if he was a bit younger. Or one, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, it's still very young, but... But on my cast now, they're all... Lola, who's the lead, was 18, when we cast her. And then they're all, like, 21, 22. They're young. But, you know, people had said to me, like, you know, first season, they work for you, and then second season, you work with each other,

and third season, you work for them. And I have to say, I'm, like, from my experience with them, and the show has done well, they're all like really like good people and I haven't found that like they're just very good-hearted like kind

people so it hasn't been that that's great it's not worth it to work with people who it's true for years yeah no because we're really in it together we're together for six months filming and we're really like sort of spirited away we're in North Carolina the beach

it's different I'm sure like doing a show in the city where yeah it's its own thing it's his own thing they're not like going to the clubs You know Clubs, yeah Like playing mafia That sounds really lovely It's so lovely

They're all lovely We've had other guests come on the show And explain who were child actors Talk about how How inappropriate often things they were Exposed to on set were And being exposed to really adult behavior And even like people not taking into account

That it would be very hard for a child to say no So taking advantage of the fact That they're probably going to say yes to everything And I was wondering as a showrunner Who works with young people what are you learning about creating environments that are protective for them? I think having that like relationship where I'm saying you can tell me if something doesn't feel right. If you don't feel like you can keep working.

You know, it's a really weird because ultimately everyone there, we all have the same goal, which is like we need to get our day done and we need to get the scenes and stuff. So you're trying to get, it's a lot of like juxtaposing forces. in a way. It is, yeah. Right? Because ultimately, that's, that is the goal and it is work and sometimes there is that weird language around

Hollywood. We're like, we're like a family and this and that, but like it is a job. And so sometimes when you use that family language things, the boundaries can get like a little bit weird too. I check in with them a lot and ask them how they feel and

I told like Lola who, like I said, she's the lead of my show. I really adore her. I told her from the beginning that like she's more important than the show. You know, like that her well-being matters to me more than like the show. Truly, like I really came to like love her so much. So, so I feel like I'm going to tear up. I really do care about her. So when things are hard and stuff, I'm like, you can just like tell me we'll figure it out. You know, because it can get It's so intimidating, too, and you've got, like, 80s walking around, and everyone's, like, you know, we got to go, we got to go. And I felt it myself even as, like, when I'm rewriting something and, you know, we're losing light, you got to go fast. And to slow down for a second and just, like, take a beat, you know, and that, and not to diminish the work that we're doing, but ultimately, you know, is it going to be the end of the world? If we have to pick this up tomorrow or, like, come back, if someone's, like, really tired or it's not, they're sick. The environment on a set is the stakes are heightened to the point that it feels like

you are there curing cancer or sending people to space. It's like the and it's all ultimately because a lot of money is being spent. So it comes down from the studios and you know no one who is currently alive is responsible for generating this but but everybody's upholding it to some degree. By and large, it's understandable and partly necessary and usually forgivable depending on the transgression. But then I think everybody finds themselves at some point, like, wait, are we going to let capitalism crush somebody right now? Like, and actually traumatize somebody right now? Or are we going to all stop and be like, hey, guys, it's a television show. You know, like, it's not what is so important. But it's tough because then it's like,

yeah like we're losing light or like we have to pull the plug like in this moment or whatever and there are so many factors and so many people working so hard to make it happen with a location or whatever it is and like we had a moment this past season where one of my actors was like

feeling pretty sick and had been like battling through it and this was our last day of filming and we were done we were wrapped and I had like I was at home and and face timed her just to check in and everyone was like She's good, she's good, she feels okay to go.

And then I FaceTimed her and she's like in the makeup trailer and I was like looking at her face and I was like, are you like, are you good to go? And she was like, yeah, yeah, I can do it. And then I was like, I don't think so though. Like I just looked at her and I was like, let's just, she was like, no, no, I'm going to be okay. And then I go, I don't think that you are okay and let's just call it right now and say we're just not doing it and we'll have to come back. Like I feel sorry to everybody. We're going to have to like figure it out. and she started crying like really hard

and I was like look doesn't it feel like a relief you just make the decision and that's a decision and then people were mad at me sure because they're like why did you just like make that call right then and there and whatever and then we had to like do reshoots in like LA and it was the whole thing but ultimately it was a really big scene for her

so I felt like it wasn't fair to power our way through one of her like biggest scenes of a season just because she realized like the whole crew everybody wanted to be Of course, yeah. You know, and that, but you, at what cost? And then you lose, I think, maybe a little trust with your actors as well.

If you sometimes push for things that, you know, for our relationship and I think also just for her own sense of, like, happiness and pride for the work that she was doing. I felt like it was important. Yeah. It's really beautiful. That is what people in so many industries are faced with. It's like, are we going to let money as the bottom line. like actually potentially just

hurt someone and we know that it does by default anyway I think that's really cool and then it was okay guess what okay a few weeks later people had to fly out to L.A., and I'm sorry that they had to do that.

And Netflix is all right by the way. It was Netflix, it was Amazon. Amazon's better. They're definitely already. And everybody was fine with it and it all worked out. I think for me, I think because I wrote the books as well, I definitely feel

the pressure I feel isn't just of here's a show but it's about people who read those books when they were 12 years old and now they're 15 years later they're like working adults and it means something to them so I really want to do a good job and like I think everyone in the cast it's part of why I have so much respect for them

is they all understand that too that's really cool yeah I love that Jenny yeah I do too you don't get that a lot no it feels rare it's special I think people externalize the well-being of actors. Yeah. I really love that. Penn and I got a script recently. I hope this isn't like too bragging. But I feel like it's helpful to hear stories like this because other people, you know, go into the street. We got a script. We really liked it and it would have been casting young actors. I won't give the details, Penn. But we were really impressed. It was really funny. It would have been a great movie. But the lead actress, there was like something about her that you'd have to cast someone who had the thing that the lead actress had. We just couldn't stop thinking about this real girl, what's going to happen to her getting cast for this particular thing. Like it's going to be painful. and it's going to follow her for a while.

And we just, like, we can't, we decided that, like, we can't commodify the well-being of the human girl who has to play this part to make a great movie. It's not animation. It's a real person. And, you know, just, like, as a company value, like, don't externalize the well-being of your actors because they're not objects, they're people.

And that happens so often in this industry. I have a question that is sort of trivial, but I'm interested, and it takes us into another direction. People who are really good in their craft sometimes develop, like habits or rituals before they sit down to do the thing and I've read that Kurt Vonnegut would do push-ups and sit-ups before he'd sit down

to write Beethoven was very surprised to hear this by the way I know I love Vonnegut and like that does not seem like Vonnegut he was my number one for a long time Beethoven would count 60 coffee beans for his like coffee before he would sit down to compose I'm wondering if you over the years

have developed any sort of like habits or rituals that help you get into your zone When I'm writing a book, it's like I sit down and I'm getting like some sort of iced fruity drink or maybe iced tea. Like how fruity? Like a juice. I love a juice. There's like a fresh-squeezed apple juice. Ooh.

Yeah, that's what I like. Or like a lemonade. And I've got that. And then I'm like, let me look at my emails. Let me like, what's up? What's going on, Vulture? What's happening on Twitter? I'm looking at that for a bit.

And it's kind of like you're just like revving yourself up to open up the blank page. It takes a minute to, like, get into it, I guess. So that's sort of my ritual. I'm not someone who can just sit down and, like, immediately is like, you know, type, type. It just has to warm up for a second. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Jenny, I want to ask you one.

We have a final question we ask everyone, but I want to slip one in before we go. I'm obsessed with Taylor Swift. And the use of her song in the trailer is maybe the best use of. a Taylor song ever to promote a TV show. Incredible use of her song in the trailer, and it's an unreleased Taylor's version from 1989, in my opinion, the best Taylor's album of all time. How did you get her to give you permission to use an unreleased Taylor's version? As I was writing the book, I was listening to Fearless, and I almost dedicated the second book in the series to her because of how much. It was almost like when I needed to get into an emotional,

heightened place. I could just tap into that vein when I was listening to her music. And I think my readers are really big fans of her. So I just felt like it was the biggest gift that I could give them if I could get it. And so with Summer I turned pretty, even when I pitched the show, I was like, and hear the final moments, he stands up and then we hear, done, dun, dun, and then it's Taylor. And then I was like playing the song. And I'm like, this is the finale. You played it in the pitch? Yeah.

I did. He's taking notes here. Yeah. I wanted to imprint it on their minds so that even if it ended up being like expensive, that they weren't going to be able to say no to me because I already like said this. Yeah, that's so smart, Jenny.

And I wrote her a letter. Sweet. Yeah, and said what she meant to me and what I knew she meant to my readers and how it would be like the best if I could give them if she would

do that. And so we caught like five songs That's amazing Yeah and we're so lucky And then like Yeah it's probably the best thing That could have happened to the show So I am so grateful to her

And yeah I love her music so much Same I have a friend who says Never underestimate the power of a good letter He'll like write to his favorite authors He's like had Skype calls with his favorite authors Or like yeah

It's Nathan Nathan Raynow Shout out Shout out Nathan Rainford Oh yeah Yeah, Nathan, he's just a good friend of ours, back in London. Great person. Are there any current projects you want to plug before we ask you the final question? Sure, so XO Kitty is a spinoff to all the boys coming out in May on Netflix.

Exciting. And that is basically Kitty, who's the youngest sister, it's her story, and she goes to boarding school in Korea. Wow, that's so cool. Yeah, so we filmed in Korea. It was awesome. Oh, wow, cool. Yeah. And then season two of the summary turned pretty, we have not announced yet when it's coming out. And so it's still a secret. I can't wait to share it with people. I'm so excited

I'm so sorry I keep cutting in I'll let Pan ask the final question I just want to say this my sister her name is Jenna she is obsessed with to all the boys

trilogy it's like her comfort movie she watches it all the time and she lives in Sweden we're really close anytime we visit each other we watch the first one together every time so I associate

the first one yeah I associate the first movie with my sister yeah so sweet I hope she will check out the show I think that it's really fun

it's still like the same sort of like heartbeat, I think of the originals. Really exciting. Our last question is, I mean, you kind of asked me the same question. A little bit of a different version. A Taylor's version, if you will.

A Jenny's version. Jenny's version? Jenny's version, yeah. So now we have Penny's version. I'm sorry for that. If you could go back to your 12-year-old self. 12-year-old Jennifer becoming Jenny What would you say?

I would say I would say Don't worry about the math You're really not going to be using that So it's fine I would say Don't be doing so much Plucking of your eyebrows

Because it's never going to grow back I did a little too short There's a little space Never filled back Really? I really feel like that should be a PSA I think so too yours is like a notes memo

I know just like some real practical things we're not going to address major life issues here just like that that that that that that that and I would say you are beautiful and you will

as you get older you'll be like oh like feeling like you're fat or you're like not pretty or all those things and you don't really appreciate in the moment where I think all young people are inherently beautiful but you don't really like appreciate it at the time and you spend like a lot of energy on that

so I would say that to little Jenny and keep on reading and also just like that's it though and also maybe like be nicer to your mom and stop being like such a little bitch something's such a little bitch But I even need someone from the future to tell me that

So I still get so annoyed You know how it is Like we're like why am I like snapping at my mom right now I feel like so guilty honestly You know? Yeah definitely Jenny thank you so much for coming on This is such a pleasure

Oh it was our pleasure You guys were great thank you so much This is really fun I was so tired But now I have like great energy Jenny, you look beautiful. Oh, my gosh, thank you. Do you know why? I heard.

The variety of the variety of women's luncheon. I was like, I'm so, like, dressed up right now. But, yeah, it was so long, too. You know, when you look at the list and you're going, there's eight honorees, and then someone's going to introduce them, and then people were doing their little, like, acceptance speech for, like, half an hour. Wow. I left early.

I left early, but I felt sad because I walked out on Seth Myers introducing Judy Blume. Oh, wow. Y'all should have Judy Blume. We should have Judy Blum. You're right. That's a great idea. Because she's got that Margaret movie coming soon, so she's, I think, on the road. Yeah.

That's a great idea. It's a good suggestion. Thank you, Jenny. Welcome. Do you take a cut for any of your PR? Are you coming on as a producer? We need it. We need some good direction here. Stitcher

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