Podcrushed - Jesse Metcalfe

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

Jesse Metcalfe comes on Podcrushed and opens up about being bullied for being “too pretty,” carrying a chip on his shoulder into Hollywood, and how the peaks and valleys of his incredible career introduced him to spirituality. He revisits John Tucker Must Die with Penn for the first time in decades, including JTMD moments from behind the scenes, and a dinner moment involving edamame that still haunts Penn to this day. There’s soap-opera hell portals, pilot-season pressure cookers, and a brutally honest reckoning with fame and identity. Funny, uncomfortable, and unexpectedly deep — this one's a banger.   David is offering our listeners a special deal: buy 4 cartons and get the 5th free when you go to https://davidprotein.com/PODCRUSHED   Right now, new customers can get 15% off sitewide at https://magneticme.com.    🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. We're all eating, and there's edamomame on the table. Right? There's edamomame in the table. And you shot... And edamame... No. No, so I had never seen edamame before.

You're like, what is this? And the whole time I'm just kind of like, what are they doing? No, so here's what I did. After, like, halfway through the meal, I find I'm like, I'm going to have some. And I reach in and I start to like, and I'm just like, what the fuck is this? And I realize, that's what I realized. This has already been in somebody's mouth. Welcome to Pod Crushed.

We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties. Penn, would you have let us braid your hair? If my wife doesn't make me cut it. Oh, God. No, but this is in middle school.

I was married in middle school, David. Hello, hello, and welcome to Pod Crush. I am your host, whose name you already know, let's be honest. I'm joined by my nameless, faceless co-hosts. Navakablin is Sophie Ansari. Everybody give running around. Hi. Hello.

Today, our guest today is Jesse Metcalfe, who, you know, I mean, let's not reduce him, as I wouldn't want to be reduced to my characters. But of course, he played John Tucker in, he was the eponymous, titular character of John Tucker must die, one of the first big movies I was a part of, had a small role in it as his brother, the Arthur Tucker and I'll wait for your nervous systems to calm Sophie Nava you had you had seen the movie before

to be clear Yeah I had yeah I think we had similar experiences We both had seen the film before Like in what context did you first see it do you think Did you go to the theaters? I saw it in the movie I saw it at the movies with friends

Yeah I think it came out 2006 So I was I was in middle school 2006 To 2008 9 So, yeah, it was like all the music, everything was just like, who's just like, woo, that pop punk. Just brought me right back.

Dirty little secret. I mean, I was like, oh, yeah, wow, that was a time. And it was a long time ago now. Like Timothy Chalemay wasn't born. I definitely want to hear your experience rewatching it. The only thing that I'd say is that rewatching it, I was shocked because we had Brittany Snow on the show. And I know we did talk about John Tucker with her a little bit.

A little. A tiny bit because I lead the charge on the prep And I did not remember that Britney Snow was even in John Tucker That was like a revelation I didn't remember she was in it And then so when I watched the movie It had come up in the conversation That you guys knew each other from doing it

And I was like oh Britney Snow's in it Who is she? I thought she was the lead And she's supposed to be invisible That's actually quite funny No recollection that Britney Snow was like Absolutely the lead of this movie So to me that already

It was just shock after shock after shock And by the way, she really is. Like, she really carries it. She is the glue. Like, I mean, she was so good. I actually, I actually regretted not having rewatched it before we interviewed her years ago on Pod Crushed. Because it's like a, yeah, she's so good. She really carries a movie that's not easy to carry, I think.

Yeah, totally. I think my favorite scene was when John takes estrogen and complains. That is bananas. It's, sorry, I talked to, yeah, I talked over you, so in case, in case anybody who isn't here. So, John, who's supposed to be 16, by the way, you know, played by Jesse so gorgeous and sexy in his mid-20s, although he does look young, and he does. He takes a bunch of estrogen, you know, it's being snuck into his, like, what, you know,

protein powder or something. and just just like that it's a device that it's that it's that it makes him act like a like a very particular kind of of a feminine trope it's just I was like I was suddenly becomes like overly emotional yeah he's like do my fides look fat exactly in his basketball shorts yeah and then he basically was like everybody who says John John John Moon he was thinking about me you know like he's carrying the team like he's the overworked wife of a family of age. It's so... There's so much in that movie that is... That's like, whoa, okay. I guess that's what 2006 was like. I don't remember it being like that,

but I guess it was. But that takes the cake. For sure, that scene. To me, that's why... And I say this with love for everybody involved. That, to me, I'm watching, I'm like, this is why the Gen Zs hate us. This is why.

I mean, this is, you know, Exhibit A. So, I mean, there's so many, like, Like, just so inappropriate things that I was just laughing out loud at. I was like, I can't, I actually can almost not believe some of it. It's like. It's hilarious. Were you just laughing or were you crying in horror and sending us weird texts also? My, my face was turning red anytime I was on camera.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, such a, such a baby. You had great hair, though, I have to say. I was like, wow, that's like the bestest hair has ever left. Oh, I wrote, I want a chop pencil. his hair off. Because it looks like your hair.

It was giving you flashbacks to when you were being identified as a dog. That was so good. Well, Penn, what was it like to be reunited with the other other Tucker? The main Tucker. The main Tucker. Really sweet.

I was having kind of like sense memories throughout the interview of being like, wow, yeah. And I feel like he really hasn't changed, you know? And I probably haven't changed either. you know. It's probably all thanks to neutral. All thanks through his skin care.

I don't like that. But why don't we, let's bring old Jesse on, right? So, as we said, we got today, Jesse Metcalfe, his breakout roles in Desperate Housewives, Dallas, Chesapeake Shores, everything he did, basically,

is part of an entire era of pop culture. Maybe, in a certain sense, crowned by the thing that brings it, close to home for me is, you know, he's John Tucker and John Tucker must die, as I said, and I am the other Tucker, I am his brother in that movie. I don't think that Jesse and I had seen each other.

I don't, it might have been 20 full years, you know, like two full decades. That's, that's a lifetime for most of our listeners. So, you know, it was a joy to have him. You're going to have a joyful time listening. We'll be right back after this break. Hiya, Julia Louis Dreyfus here from the Wiser Than Me podcast, among other things. And I've got a bit of a hot take. Our relationship to our food can feel disconnected.

We don't always know how or where our food is grown. And if we throw food scraps in the garbage, we don't think about where it's going, or at least we try not to. One way that I get back a little of that connection is by using my miller. food recycler. Sure, Mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never, ever smells. But this is also really important. When I use Mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger, and that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient-rich grounds overnight.

I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens, if I wanted backyard chickens. And I don't know, maybe I do now. Maybe I don't. Anyway, maybe mill is transforming me, too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mills risk. free trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard-earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91-year-old mom, Judy, to get her take on it all.

Wiser than me from Lemonada Media is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pop Crush. I want to dive in so bad and just catch up. Absolutely. Before we do that, we're going to get there, we're going to get there, we're going to get there. But we always start at 12 years old. And this is, you know, something that we were just saying before the cameras rolled, and I don't even know that I've shared with Nevin.

Sophie, you know, as much as we hung and worked together intensely for this, how many, what, like six weeks, eight weeks, something like that? It wasn't weeks. I think it was almost a few months. I think it was like 10 weeks. You were in Vancouver. You were shooting every day. Yeah, I was like hanging out at whatever that hotel was.

Right. The Sutton Place. Yeah, the Sutton Place. Oh, man, that's a sudden place. So, but we don't really know that much about each other. We really don't. Like, we hung? We were not at that.

period of life where we were going to just be opening up constantly. Not necessarily. So at least about like adolescence. Because I know for me, I was 18 years old when we shot that, I was not about to go back and be like, here's who I was as a child. You know, so that's what we do here. We start at 12 years old. Okay.

We want to get into all the trials and tribulations and the comedy, the highs and the lows of adolescence, right, of coming of age growing up. So just give us a snapshot. Jesse at 12 years old. So we want that kind of daily life vibe. And then we also like, because almost everyone who comes on is a performer of some kind, was that on the horizon for you at all then? There was indications that it would be on the horizon.

I was definitely into the arts. I love to draw and to paint, and I played instruments. I sang in the choir. But I never entertained the idea of being an answer. actor. Okay. But you talk about being 12 years old and adolescent, very formative years. I had a pretty rocky adolescence.

I was, for the majority of my adolescent, well, you know, I had a stepfather that was very present in my life, but I had a pretty truculent relationship with my father. I also was really bullied as a child. I mean, like... At school? Yes. What kind of school? Well, you know, regular.

regular school, elementary school, middle school. Then I went to, you know, upper crust sort of prep school for high school called the Williams School on Connecticut College campus in New London, Connecticut. And, you know, I was more of a blue collar middle class, at times lower middle class kids, so I didn't necessarily really fit in there. But, you know, everything seemed to center around the way I looked as a child. child, you know? Meaning, I was a very pretty boy.

Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah. I will say that you look amazing. I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not slouchy here, neither, but, but what I'm saying, it's amazing how you look like. I always looked a lot younger, uh, when I was a kid, a lot younger than I actually was. And I think I still look relatively younger than I actually am.

You really do. So I had that until I had four boys. No, you look great, man. You really do. But I think those formative years really informed a lot of the things that happened within my career in Hollywood and in adulthood. I definitely had a major chip on my shoulder coming into Hollywood and starting my career. That didn't really work to my benefit. Right.

And I would guess that you were not, well, maybe, I don't know, were you aware of that chip? You know what I'm saying? Like you can say it now. No, no. In my early 20s, no. People started to make me aware of it. And then I started to try to control it, you know, work on it. Do therapy.

Try to get rid of it. But it was kind of like a lot of the things that haunted me from my adolescence resurfaced, you know, in Hollywood. Yeah, totally. When I came to town. A lot of people picking me apart, you know, from my appearance here. You know, when we came up in the early 2000s, that was when, you know, online tabloid media was really exploding. That's true, yeah.

And, you know, I kind of got chewed up and spit out by it. And it really did a number on me, you know, when sort of drove some alcoholism that I was dealing with at that time, you know, and, you know, it didn't always bring the best out of me. Yeah. So let's go back to the original trauma then. Let's do it. Let's go deeper. So that day-to-day life, you know, I mean, because I totally, I also looked very young

especially as a boy then. I was like I was just a cute little boy and I wanted to be, you know, as a 12-year-old does, sexy. Yeah, right? Or a man, you know, macho, masculine, yeah. So tell us about like, what was day-to-day life like at home? I have a really amazing mother who's just kind of been my rock and has supported me. through every trial and tribulation

I've ever had in my life. My mom has been married and divorced three times. Okay. You know, and is now happily remarried. Right. She knows how to do it. You know? I mean, some would say she's been unlucky in love

and some would say she's been lucky in love. She certainly had a lot of suitors, you know, but they haven't always worked out. Can I ask how your stepdad I don't want to sound flippant. What number was he? Like, how many did you go? That was my mom's second marriage,

but my mom was never married to my biological father. Okay, okay. Yeah. So, you know, technically it was her third, you know, long-term, really serious relationship. But, I mean, life for me was, you know, I worked for my stepfather's landscaping business, you know, when I was 13, 14, 15,

when I'd come home from college over the summers, I just had a very regular suburban blue-collar upbringing. But I did really struggle in school. You know, where I grew up, people that were creative, artistic. It just didn't resonate with how people, how young people acted in my area. Everything was really driven by sports, you know. You played basketball. Yeah, I played sports, you know.

I wasn't a star. I wasn't a star athlete, you know, but I played a lot of sports grown up. I mean, I had a good childhood. I had a relative, I mean, growing up in Connecticut, it's very, I grew up by the water. It's very idyllic. But it wasn't always easy. Yeah. Jesse, I'm curious because you referenced this early on in prep.

I read a little bit about this. You talked about like being bullied as a kid. And I think I heard you say that it really should. shaped a lot of the inner script or the inner narrative you had about yourself, like, going into adulthood. So I'm just curious if you're comfortable sharing with us, like, what was that inner script that started to develop as a kid? Like, how are you talking to yourself and how are you seeing yourself? Generally speaking, that I wasn't good enough. You know, that I wasn't, I wasn't tall enough. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't attractive enough. I just wasn't,

I wasn't a good enough actor. I wasn't good enough. And to cover those feelings of kind of inadequacy, I developed a strong sense of perfectionism. And perfectionism to me is kind of like when you come into a situation and you try to control every facet of that situation in order for you to be the best version of yourself at the detriment probably of everyone else around you. You want to be able to be perfect in that moment.

And I think the way that manifested itself on set or within my work life was that I kind of tried to control a lot of situations and ultimately ended up, you know, and ultimately ended up, you know, budding heads with a lot of people. We interviewed Rob Lowe, who talked about a similar experience, you know, gorgeous man, and he talked about as a young kid feeling like he was pretty and that how he was made fun of for that.

And I'm curious because I can imagine. I've never heard that. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar. I can imagine that kind of teasing coming from boys. if there's another boy who looks pretty.

But in my experience, I can't imagine that coming from the girls. In my experience, at least at my schools, that would have made someone attractive to a girl. Yeah, no, I never had a problem with the girls. Okay, okay, I was curious. What was that? Like, what were your experiences around crushes and, like, first loves at that time of life? Wow. You know, I wasn't popular, really, for any stretch.

in grade school, in middle school, or really in high school, my social status sort of kind of went up and down all the time. I also went to three different grade schools, three different elementary schools. That's a lot. Because we moved around in the area a lot. So I felt like I was constantly the new kid. And there's a period of adjustment there when you're the new kid.

Sort of everybody, you know, kind of tests you. but yeah I mean I just I mean I only really had one serious serious girlfriend in high school my high school sweetheart and we ended up going out

well into college too for like four four and a half years total you mean yeah yeah four and a half years that's quite a lot four and a half years two years of high school and two years of college we were we were together at that age that's sort of like

your whole life. It's your whole life. It's super, super intense. And we had the conversation of, like, are we going to get married and take this to the next level? You know, and ultimately, it's just like, it's terrible timing to, like, you know, have such a deep relationship. I mean, it sets an amazing standard, you know, that a lot of relationships after that didn't really live up to. But it's pretty rare to. you know, commit and marry your high school sweetheart. But I had that, and I'm glad I did. Jesse, who were you friends with?

Did you gravitate towards girls and friendships? Were there a few boys? Other pretty boys? Like, who was your group? I had a crew of guys. I don't know. I don't know. We did what young guys do.

We rode our bikes around the neighborhood. We played backyard football. We, like, beat the crap out of each other. You know, I mean, you know, I had a good childhood. It was sort of a two-handed thing. You know, I was estranged from my father for a long period in my childhood. And I just didn't really get the positive reinforcement that I needed from a male figure in my life. And I was like insanely bullied and picked on when I was a kid.

And I think it was just like a one-two punch that really kind of affected, you know, like you previously said, my inner narrative. Yeah. And how I saw myself. So by the time. So what, maybe 15, 16 is when you first, you got your modeling agent in the city, right? And you start going into the city, you start getting gigs, you're traveling abroad. So that feels to me, like, I guess there's two ways of thinking of it, kind of as you said. On one hand, you know, as you've been saying, like, there's a narrative where this is actually in some ways idyllic.

This is in some way, not idyllic, but it's, it's, it's, it's, there's some. Well, it's an opportunity that you would probably build confidence from. But it was a double-edged sword. You know, I also kind of got made fun of for it. Exactly. And so I'm just wondering, like, now the way you reflect on it. Like, who was that boy going into the, going into the city, like, for modeling gigs and then having to fly to Milan? And, like, who, you know what I mean?

Like, how, how, how, how was he seeing that? Was he thrilled? Yeah, I was excited. I was excited about it. Okay. You know, it was, it was, I definitely had a sense of accomplishment. And it fueled my, my son. self-esteem a bit. And I started sort of coming into my own a little bit, which ultimately led me to

wanting to try acting and breaking out in the industry. That was the beginning of it, really. So tell us about that arc, that arc from, you know, maybe like not knowing what was on the horizon to suddenly this thing manifests and comes closer. And then you're like, all right, I have real opportunity here. You know, I'm going to get to travel, I'm going to get to make money. and then, because you were, I guess, you're traveling and making money by, like, what, 16, 17? Is that like a little bit? Yeah.

At least a little bit, right? So that's empowering. I was taking the train into the city from Connecticut. It was doing various different modeling jobs. Okay. Modeling for like YM and 17 magazine. I got a couple different campaigns. I went to Milan one season.

Okay. Ran, walked the runways in Milan for a few high-end designers. Just imagine you were running the last. Everyone else was walking, I was running. Ambition. I really made a statement. So where did that start to turn into acting? Well, it started turning into acting when I went to NYU.

Okay, but you, I mean, did you immediately apply to Tisch? I only applied to Tisch. Okay. I literally only applied to NYU. My mom's like, you shouldn't you have a backup school? I was like, if I don't get in, I just won't go to college. And I didn't get in. I actually got into a.

another program at New York University. I did a semester there, and then I transferred into Tisch, film and television. Okay. Yeah, for writing and directing. You were at Gallatin, right? I was at Gallatin. Yeah, whatever that was.

Yeah, what is Gallatin again? Nobody really knows. Gallatin is like the school for individualized study. And when I toured NYU, because I went to NYU as well. And when I toured it, they would like hype it up to be like, you know, you could study whatever you want. You could take classes at any of the NYU schools. There's people here who have made their majors waffles.

There's another person. who's made their major. Just like crazy things. Wow. Yeah. It always seemed like the coolest school. I always felt like I sort of, you know, got in the back door. Yeah.

That's fair. That's totally fair. That's kind of like me. I was accepted to USC with the intention to get into the film school because I missed the deadline to apply to the film school, but I was like, I'm going to get in there. I'm going to go to USC anywhere. I never went.

I was accepted to USC, but I was doing a show as we do. So actually that's somewhat similar for you. So you dropped out. Let's say we, you left early. I left early. You left early. Because that is what you did. You left early because you were like, I'm going to.

I booked a job. Yeah, right. Yeah, I booked a job. So before we get into that, I'm curious about, like you say, acting really wasn't there until you went to Tish. What inspired you to apply then? I wanted to direct. Oh, really? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I loved film. Okay. That's the only thing I knew that I really loved. All right. Yeah. And so when you got in and you're going, like, what was your experience there? What was the environment like on campus?

It was really cool. It was really cool. Yeah, it was really inspiring. There was a lot of people doing a lot of great things. You know, there was this sort of Coca-Cola competition where you could make a trailer for, you could make a trailer for a movie that wasn't actually a real movie, but it was actually an advertisement for Coca-Cola. It was like a huge competition in the school.

and someone really close to me ended up winning that competition and I was very inspired by that and I was very inspired by a couple of my professors. I had an acting professor actually that, you know, I sort of caught the acting bug in his class. But, you know, I don't know if you like remember that scene from the doors when Jim Morrison...

You know, it's crazy I've never seen that. Oh, it's an amazing movie. Well, there's a scene where Jim Morrison's at USC and he's in a film class. You know, and he sort of shows his short black and white film, and everyone's, like, ripping his film the shreds, and he, like, storms out of a classroom. That's what it was like at NYU.

Wow. You'd shoot a short film, specifically in this class called Sight and Sound Film. All right. It was one of the first, you know, classes where you actually shot something. You cut it, you cut the film on a steenbeck, which is, like, you know, an old piece of machinery

where you cut film and put a piece of tape on the film and like tamp it down, you know? I mean, it was, and it was an amazing class, you know, and my films were pretty edgy, you know. They were a little violent, you know, some thought a little overly sexualized, and I got those critiques, you know, in that class. And I was like, well, this is kind of fun, you know. It's fun to kind of make something and present it to people and to get such a visceral reaction. and I loved it. I loved every minute of it. And I loved having New York City as my campus.

So, Jesse, what's the path from Tish to passions? By the way, I have to say that I'm such a big fan of passions that we wrote a book together and I actually reference you. And there was like a footnote like I've never met Jesse Metcalf. And for some reason our editor took it out. But now it's no longer true. But I had like a paris social relationship with all of you guys. This is a fan, me, angry.

So I want to know all about Miguel's inner life. But I'm curious. Yeah, how did you land that role? I just went to an open casting call in New York. My modeling agency actually sent me to an open casting. At this point, had you been auditioning for like a... How long? I went on one other commercial audition before this.

Whoa. Yeah. So like your first audition? It was my first audition. I had no idea what I was doing. casting gave me some pages, some sides, sent me to the lobby. I looked them over for maybe 20 minutes, called me in. I was terrible, but I do remember that the person running the casting had a little sparkle in their eye.

You know, I kind of thought, oh, it seems like she sees something in me, but I don't know. And then two, three weeks went by, and I didn't hear anything. And then I got a call in my dorm room saying, we want you to come to Los Angeles for a screen test. Okay. Put me up at the Hilton at Universal Studios. But I really prepared for this audition. You know, I got an acting coach, and I kind of nailed it. You know, I mean, I did.

I felt really, really good about it. Came back to school at NYU. A couple days went by the phone rang again. We may need you to come back out to Los Angeles. I'm like, I can't come back out to L.A. I mean, I'm in college. What are you talking about? We're going to have someone call you back.

Someone calls me back and goes, we'd like to offer you this role. And I basically kind of like, you know, was a apartment-style daughter. dorm where sort of might. So did you, did you, did you unwittingly negotiate yourself into that role? They're like, we want to call you back. I can't go back.

I know, I played a hard phone. Right, right. Exactly. Either offer it to me now or I'm off the table. It ended up working out, you know, but yeah. And I was super excited about it,

you know, and, you know, of course, my mother was like, oh, I always knew you'd be an actor, and I was like, oh, no, you didn't. Just passions is like, Like, I mean, all soaps are crazy, but Passions was like super unhinged. It was weird for the time. It was totally insane.

It was weird for any time. And you were part of like the first love triangle I ever saw on TV. I'm just curious. I don't assume that you're a fan of soap operas, but what was your favorite storyline to act on passions? I had a storyline where I went to hell. What? I went to hell through a portal in my girlfriend's closet.

What? in order to save her because she was possessed. And I had, it was like, in hell, it was. I love this. I didn't know. Indiana Jones, you know? I was like going through all these tunnels and I was in like mining carts and boulders were coming. And I was fighting demons.

I had no idea. I mean, this show was unreal. Yeah. So it's super natural? Totally supernatural. Oh, yeah. Yeah, basically centers around a small town in New England called Harmony. And there's a witch.

terrorizing all these families in his town. No harmony to be found. And she has a doll named Timmy that comes to life. So basically they were like, what hasn't been done in soap operas? Everything that hadn't been done was put in this show. They're like, fuck it. Wow.

It must have done like gangbusters too. I mean, it was huge, wasn't it? It was pretty big. It was kind of like a soap opera cult classic. And it was big with a younger audience. I heard a lot of stories of people kind of running, home from school to catch the show or college students that were like

getting baked and watching the show. Did you see Miguel went to hell? It was a crazy. He went to hell and he's in a hell. My mom watched Days of Our Lives and I watched Passion so it was like they'd be back to back so she'd be in the living room and then I'd be in the living room. That's so cute. Just imagining 13 year old Nava

sitting in front of the TV watching this show where Jessie met Capp's in hell. What's going to happen with Kay and McGill and Charity? Did you start Once you were on passions, were you getting recognized around New York? What was your experience of fame while you were on the show? This show shot in Los Angeles, so I relocated to Los Angeles. I had a certain modicum of fame.

But I think when you're on soaps, you're in a little bit of a bubble. You're not really in the mainstream just yet. But it was a great training ground for me, you know, five years on that show. learning the craft of acting, really, breaking down a script and memorizing lines. It's fast. It is fast. It is fast.

So it's kind of trial by fire. I mean, it was a great experience. By hellfire. Yeah. I come in with terrible, like, dad joke puns because it's not good. See, I shut it down. See what happened now? I'm glad you did.

So, yeah, after that, I did five years on that show. You know, sort of grew up on the show. and they were all my family. And then I was like, you know, I want to give it a go on prime time and did my first pilot season, you know, because there was a pilot season. Yeah, right. Desperate Housewives must have come pretty soon. Was that the first time, first pilot season as well?

That was the end of my first pilot season. Damn, dude. Yeah. Right out the gate every time. I got pretty lucky. Right. Pretty lucky. So, and that was, I think when you entered into the sphere for me a bit,

because our mutual friends, somebody worked with on that show, Sean Pfeiting. Yeah. Sean, oh, God, he played Marsha Cross's son, don't know their character names. You did not play Marsha Cross's son. You were the heartthrob of that show. And I mean, from what I recall, you know, and I... The first season anyway. Okay, yeah.

So tell us about the experience. Like, you know, it's the end of pilot season, which, for those who have not participated in pilot season, which is most people listening. You know, it's sort of like the inverse of the playoffs. It's like people who are trying to get jobs are just like balls to the wall all day for like three months. You're auditioning like three times a day. That's what was cool about it actually,

is that it was really intense. It is. You know, and everything was in person too. I mean, now all these auditions are on tape. I think it's actually a lot harder to book roles on top. tape. But back then during pilot season,

like you mentioned, there'd be like three auditions a day and nobody was off book. Everyone had their script in their hand and sometimes they'd

do the same day mixing matches with other actors. It was just, I don't know, there was something exciting about it. It's crazy how long

ago I was now. About it. Yeah, no, very much. Like, I think it's, I can't believe how much has changed.

I mean, I wouldn't know what it's like to be, you know, cutting your teeth for the first time in pod of season now. I don't, yeah,

But I know that, as you say, it's like it's so remote. It's just so there's like something, something has been sucked out. And even though I also have a lot of negative recollections, or, you know, I can see how there are less than positive influences being in that had on me growing up. There is a thrill. There's a total thrill. Well, it was a lot of pressure. There's no doubt about that.

The pressure was insane. So by the time you're reaching the end of your first pilot season, what was the Vod check for you? I was thinking, I'm not going to get anything. I was thinking, you know, I just quit a job where I was making like, you know, mid-six figures a year. Yeah, right. And I was having fun, and now I'm unemployed, and I haven't booked anything. And then the end of that pilot season brought two opportunities,

an opportunity to test for a show called Veronica Mars and an opportunity to test for Desperate Housewives. Okay. Interesting. How did you make the decision? You know, I kind of, I was kind of flying blind, so I just kind of had my reps really make the decision. I mean, they felt like, they felt like desperate housewives had more of a chance of being a hit

and could possibly have more longevity. And I think that's how we ultimately made the decision. But an insanely nerve-wracking process, auditioning for that show, you know, at that time, you had to audition for the network and you had to audition for the studio. and there was 15 people in each audition watching you. Yeah, so it was kind of, it was like, it was a pressure cooker. It really was.

But ultimately, I'm glad that role went my way and, you know, it was sort of the start of a career, I guess. You could say, you know, I mean, it's a challenging industry. And, you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that, I mean, I believe I've underachieved. You know, I have a lot more to give in this business, you know, as a performer. And, you know, I'm still striving to get a lot of those opportunities. So, you know, it's been a journey for sure.

Yeah. Jesse, I'm curious, sorry, just to stay on Desperate Housewives for a moment. One is like, I can't, I don't really have a question, but I didn't realize that you and Eva Longoria are only two years apart. Because you're older. That is a lot, by the way. When I saw that in the research, I was like, yeah. Accurate?

Well, I mean, that speaks to the point we made earlier that, you know, we both look a lot younger than we actually are. Yeah. And I really did at that time. I mean, I was 25 years old and I was playing, what, a 16, 17-year-old. Yeah, also crazy that they made Eva play a 40-year-old when she was 15-7. But they're like, we can't have a real 40-year-old. Equally crazy.

On this show? No, cast a gorgeous, a gorgeous petite. 27 tops, guys. Come on, NBC, ABC, whatever it is. It's one of the BCs. Yeah. So funny, but I'm curious, Jesse, did that, like, somehow subliminally impact your relationship with Eva? Like, did she feel older to you?

Like, what were your IRL dynamics, I guess, is my question. I feel like she was more poised than me, even though we were only two years apart. But no, I mean, we definitely, like, hung out from time to time and paled around as though we were very much the same age. Yeah, yeah. Jesse, it's really clear you said it just now in this interview, like how grateful you are for your role on Desperate Housewives and that it launched your career. But then you've also talked about how you maybe felt a little bit caged in by the emphasis that that role had on your looks. And I'm curious how that impacted what roles you were interested in moving forward and how that just, yeah, how that shaped your career. Well, I think after you have a big break really of any kind in the industry,

and a big break can be any type of role in any type of genre, but something that just puts you on the map and makes you somewhat of a name within the business, you have to stay patient as far as waiting for the next piece of material that's going to elevate your career even further. And for me, patience has never really been a virtue. I'm a very impatient. person. I relate.

Like I mentioned, you know, I kind of came from, you know, blue collar sort of middle class, at times a lower middle class background. And like, I wanted to be rich and famous. I wanted to make a lot of money, you know, and I'm like, where's my next job? And because of that, because of that impatience, I took probably a string of independent films that didn't really perform. You know, a lot of this industry is based on luck. But a lot of it is also based on strategy.

You know, and you have to be really, really strategic after you get that first big break. That's true. Yeah. Stick around. We'll be right back. Listen, folks, true statement here. I have tried a lot of protein bars, right? I mean, I'm not super crazy and unique here.

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Otherwise, 1.0.0% APY applies. No mean balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. Where does John Tucker much dive fit into that? Shall we reflect? Shall we begin?

Yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Tucker brothers. That was after Desperate Housewives, right? It was after the first season of Desperate Housewives. All right, that's right. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Okay, yes, yes, yes. I'm remembering like the chronology. So, yeah, you know, you have actually spoken in other podcasts about, for lack of a better term, a spiritual journey. And we love that on this show. And so I think I'm kind of, I have, I don't. think I've done this with a lot of guests, but I kind of, I'm, what you're, what you've been doing throughout is reflecting kind of like what it was the time for you and how you look back on it now, you know? And, and when I rewatched John Tucker, I rewatched John Tucker, I

rewatched John Tucker Must Die. I, like, I can't even remember being at the premiere. I don't know what, I must have watched it. I must have been at the premiere, surely. But maybe I wasn't, maybe I was working. I don't know, because I had such a small role at a time in it that, like, I don't remember watching it, and I was just like, a lot of it felt like it was for the first time. That's amazing. And a lot of it in my stuff, you know, just as it is for, I think mostly anybody who does what we do is so hard to watch my stuff.

But I found it interesting to, like, reflect on who I was then. I found it, I found it, well, first of all, what I cringe at in my acting is not so much like, oh, that's not good. what I see is the inability to overcome my self-consciousness because now that I have actually grown out of some of it, some, right, somewhat successfully, I'm like, oh my God, that's not me being simply a bad actor or young. That's me just not being allowed to be on camera.

Just watching yourself perform, basically. Yes. Being acutely aware of everything you're doing while you're doing it. Yes, and I really think what I've learned over the years to do is of course become less self-conscious on camera. That's kind of what any actor who can actually learns to do either quickly or slowly.

And what I can see is a boy man really painfully insecure and like I remember I was I of course you know wanted to be playing the role that is more centered. I wanted to be playing

the second see, whatever. You know, all the, all the, all the, um, embodiments of masculinity and strength and confidence and coolness, you just, you know, I was 17, 18 years old. I wanted to be those things. I had braces at the time and got them off for that, for that movie. Yeah, man. Yeah, so I, I just remember being, oh, God, I'm like, ooh, thank God I am past all that.

So that was my experience rewatching. I wouldn't have expected you to rewatch for this. I felt like you actually, and your performance in your character, actually grounded the movie. Oh, wow, that's very kind of you. In a lot of ways. Because, you know, everything that you were organically, authentically experiencing as Penn,

your character was experiencing. That's true. You know, he was sort of the alternative kid, you know. Although my sense is that Scott, Scott. I've not talked about his role before. My sense of Scott is that he, here's what I'm, The other Tucker.

Here's what I would have changed. Exactly. I would have changed that he was more comfortable in his skin, that he had accepted his role more. I get that. That's all. But I actually loved that that came across. I mean, I don't think it came across as much as maybe you personally think it did.

Sure, sure. But I think that really worked for the character. I do. Yeah. I think there's a lot of strength in... being honest about not knowing exactly who you are, you know, and not being supremely confident at that age. That's true, yeah.

But instead of faking it. Yeah. And in a lot of ways, that's what my character was doing. Right. Overcompensating. Yeah. So I'm interested. Now that there's, can get real meta here.

Like, I guess I'm curious, you know, what was Jesse at the time experiencing and feeling and thinking? You know, because I can remember us at the Sutton Place Hotel, right? Yeah. On that, what's that main street there? Is it Sutton Street? You know what I mean? Barard. Barard. Oh, wow. Yeah.

There's also a story that I've told more than once on this podcast where we were out to dinner and I was having sushi for like one of the first times ever. I'll tell it in a little bit. Were we with Channing Tatum? Were you at a meal? No. Channing Tatum was shooting a movie at the exact same time. Right?

Yeah. But no, it was actually with Chad Michael Murray. Oh, okay. And Sophia. Oh, okay. They were together at the time, and it was with Ariel and maybe you weren't at that particular dinner. Maybe I was. I think you were.

I might not have been invited to that one. I think, I don't know, man. Might not have been invited to that one. It was a big long table. Well, so what was your experience like at the time and then how do you reflect on it now? At the time, I remember having a blast shooting that movie, but at the same time putting a lot of pressure on myself. You know, and that I sort of felt like I might have drove our director a little crazy, Betty Thomas,

because I did ask for a lot of extra takes. You know, my perfectionism sort of came out. Okay. But I remember having a really, really amazing time, you know, and feeling very secure on set and very supported by our director and also our cast. And I felt like the, I mean, look at the success.

that a lot of the members of the cast of this little teen comedy that should have kind of been, should have come and gone, you know, and not necessarily taking its place in, like, you know, the history of film or any kind of zeitguise whatsoever. Look at all the success that all the asses I've had off of this movie. It is funny too much. Obviously, it was a pretty special group. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

We've had, we've had, who else have we had them? We had Sophia. I don't know if we've had anybody else on. And Britney Snow. Oh, that's right, Brittany. Of course. Britney Snow is absolutely. killing it right now, you know?

She is so good in it. She's great. I don't want to say like somehow I didn't remember. I mean, yeah, she's really good. I have a couple of John Tucker questions for both of you. I also rewatched it and learned that I didn't remember anything accurate

about that movie. All of my memories of the movie were like, I had written my own version of John Tucker. But one of the things that struck me was honestly that it's so sexy. I remember in time. Oh, yeah.

Insane. Yeah. So I was like, wow. Yeah. So I guess my question for you is there's been a lot of buzz about like a possible sequel or remake. If it were made today, what could stay and what would have to change? What do you guys think?

But this is a question for both. I think actually John Tucker must die in it. I think it will actually die. I think it will become a dark, dramatic A-24, right? Yeah. That's actually a good idea. You should write that pen. I mean, obviously you have to.

sort of, you know, people have to change and grow, you know. So, I mean, look, there's a script, you know, there's a script. Is it real script? There's a script for John Tucker Must I die too. What's it called? It's called John Tugger Must Die Too. I'm probably one of the few people that have read it, you know, and it was over at 20th Century Fox.

Wow. Despite the fact, despite the fact that, like, all of the names. made actors from that movie are like relatively successful. I don't really see it happening. I don't, yeah. Yeah, I don't need to. Well, I think that's where I, when I was watching it, I had heard, maybe I've read some. I just heard something that was like more than rumor-ish.

And you're saying that there's a script, which is way more than a rumor. So that's news to me. So I think I was watching it being like, yeah, I don't really see. how, I don't really see how this, I mean, it, as an artifact of when it was and the effect that it had then and kind of the growth of

everybody since, it's like, okay, I get it. But I think it would be hard to bring into now. Well, the new script had a whole new cast. A whole new young cast. Okay, okay. And then you know, the original characters were almost like the

B storyline. Right. And And as you might imagine, John Tucker sort of peaked in high school. Okay. But he's still at the high school. So do you win a fat suit? He's coaching. That could be interesting.

He's coaching the girls basketball team, you know, and dealing with some similar issues that he was creating, you know, back when he was a high school student with his now daughter. Oh. Yeah. That's a good idea. That was the premise. And honestly, it's a great premise.

It's a great premise. Kind of the logical direction. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, obviously everything's getting rebooted. To get this made. I don't see this one getting over the finish line. But, I mean, look, a lot of things are getting rebooted right now.

And I think I'd be happy to leave John Tucker where it's at in the past. You know, I mean, I think we sort of, we overachieve with that one anyway. The fact that people are still talking about John Tucker, almost dies. It's insane. Yeah, it's a bit of a, well, I shouldn't say shock, but yeah. Yeah. It definitely, you know, here I'll tell you this.

I think it speaks more than anything to, you know, our director of Betty Thomas, like just kind of doing a great job, just making a really kind of cute, fun movie. Well, like you guys said, the cast is absolutely stacked. Stiller. It's crazy. It's like, can you believe? As it goes on the first few minutes, you're like, what? And Ashanti?

I'm like, it's so crazy. But I'm curious. How about Taylor Kitch? That's right. Taylor Kitch is in the very beginning with the brownies. One line. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy.

It is such a crazy. Ginny McCarthy. Yeah. I did not remember Jenny McCarthy was in that thing. I did. I remember it very little. I was just like, wow, this was happening for the first time. Penn has told, he alluded to it earlier,

but he's told a story from behind the scenes of just like, from a time when he was having dinner while you guys were shooting that film. But I was curious because of the cast is so stacked if there are any memories, Jesse, that you have from offset with anyone in the cast. I remember this one particular get-together where the cast of She's the Man

and the cast of John Tucker Must Die. Yeah, we were all in the same hotel. Got together outside of work. Oh, my gosh. And just kind of being somewhat aware of that moment, like, just kind of... I don't think I was there. So many young actors together.

That's a Y2K fever dream. Yeah, it was. And just like wondering where we'd all end up. And, you know, it's... Wow. Yeah. I just remember having a really great time and, you know, the energy being really good for the most part.

Yeah, totally. So emblematic of the... I'll tell you the story that I've told here and we'll just maybe edit out the story because it's... Don't want to hear it again. But I... I...

I, so, you know, you guys were all a bit, Brittany wasn't, but like those of you who were maybe more confident and secure and where you were, the she's the man cast, everybody was just, you know, I was like a little bit younger and definitely like, okay, all right, you know, one of my... Just got my braces off. Yeah, just got my braces off by my hair down. And I went out to dinner and had like,

sushi for one of the first times you know and and it seemed real fancy to me and so we're all at dinner and I I would think you were there but maybe you weren't maybe you weren't but it was like a big long table everybody I think Ashanti was there like I do know that Chad Maca Murray

and Sophia were there and yeah and so I we're all eating and there's edamama on the table right there's edema in the table And you shot an edamame. No.

No. So I had never seen edamame before. You were like, what is this? And the whole time I'm just kind of like, what are they doing? No, so here's what I did. After like halfway through the meal, I find I'm like, I'm going to have some. And I reach in and I, I start to like, and I'm just like, what the fuck is this? And I realized, that's when I realized, this has already been in somebody's mouth.

So I had taken one of the shell. I didn't realize. It's like, so, you know, there was no more item on my left. It was just the show. And so I was just like gnawing on something that had been in somebody else's mouth. And I remember being like, you idiot, you young, dumb, uncultured nerd. And I just like, you know, just my whole face was so red. I just put it back and I was like, yeah, okay.

So that was like my vibe there. The whole time, I've just definitely, you know, a bit on the, a bit on the insecure side. But it's just a funny memory I have. That's great. Yeah, wow, I really didn't know how the mom I was. I think we can put the John Tucker days to bed after that story. That just capsulates the whole experience right there. Don't go anywhere.

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that can't be true. Follow along and catch up on season one wherever you get your podcasts. Jessie, this is such a sharp left turn, but we Penn mentioned this. You know, you have talked openly about being on a spiritual journey. I found the way that you talk about it really refreshing. I, like, wanted to hear more. And so one of the things you mentioned, I think this was maybe two years ago, you talked really openly about sort of a turning point in your life at 40.

what you described as like a rock bottom. And it was interesting because you said that you had like the, you know, you were living in this like amazing high rise in Miami. You had the social status, the money, the hot girlfriend. You had like everything that a certain version of success could deliver, but you felt so empty. And I'm curious, I have a lot of questions about it, but one question is like, what did that version of success promise you that it wasn't

able to deliver? Like, why did you feel empty having achieved all of those things? Well, money, achievement, I think, can really feed your soul. But, you know, material things, money, property, cars, you know, that doesn't feed you. That doesn't feed you. But, yeah, I definitely had a rock bottom in my early 40s, midlife crisis, if you will, that, you know. It lasted a few years, honestly. You know, I feel like over the past few years,

I've really just gotten out of it. I think just everything came so quickly and so easily to me in my 20s and 30s that I didn't necessarily appreciate it, you know, and I didn't, I became a little superficial, I think, and I wasn't really doing the things that were nourishing, you know, my soul. And I needed to reconnect spiritually. I mean, you have to have a spiritual center in your life. Otherwise, you can really sort of spin out of control and kind of lose yourself.

You know, and you reach a point where you don't even really know what you're chasing, you know. or who you are, what your life's really about. You know, and you're kind of left with nothing, you know. You sort of feel like after everything you've done or supposedly achieved, that your life doesn't really have a whole lot of meaning. You know, and I think at this stage in my life, I'm really about investing more in the people closest to me. And, you know, just sort of like,

building out those relationships and I don't really have a lot of tolerance and a lot of patience for you know, fast friends or, you know, surface relationships. I mean, look, you sort of, I'm still in this crazy industry

and you still have to play the game, you know, but I try to do it with as much authenticity as possible, like I mentioned before, and I just, I try to value people a lot more, you know, than I once did.

You know, in the early days of my career, you know, in my late 20s and early 30s, I just kind of thought I was like the epicenter of the universe. And I thought, you know, the success that I was experiencing then would last forever, you know. And I think it's important that I sort of hit a rock bottom and had a bit of a lull in my career and sort of lost myself and sort of burned it all down so that I could build it back. build it back better, you know, with just more, more authenticity, more heart, more love. You know, I just, yeah, I mean, you know, there was a period there where I just really didn't know what it all meant, you know, and I think we're all on that journey trying to figure out

who we are and why we matter. I mean, you know, nothing sort of takes the emphasis off of yourself. like parenthood, I would imagine. You know, before we started this interview, Penn was talking to me about, you know, just how he constantly has a child in his arms. One million children. For anybody who's listening who doesn't know, even though I probably talk about it all the time now,

I have newborn twins. I have newborn twins that brings me to four boys, which is just, you know, it's like, it's... I'm honestly, I'm blown away and just like super impressed. And I can't imagine how, being a father of four now has changed you. Changing.

Yeah. I mean, what I was saying, what I was saying there to Jesse before. And actually, you know, I've probably been saying to you, Nava and Sophie,

it's like I am in real. So right now the twins are four and a half months old, you know, so that's early days. Got a whole life ahead of them, a whole life of parenting. Like these, they're going to become men.

And I am their father. Yeah. You know? That is, that's wild. That's the craziest part of parenthood is like, who I am their mother. Yeah, I am the mother.

I am the only mother. You know what I say, whatever anybody's relationship to God and government is, it started with their parents, you know? Like literally, I'm not saying God and government the same thing. What I'm saying is what you think about God and what you think about government, the first times you encounter those archetypes are with your parents, you know? and that's like they're the first relationships and I would say all of us are in some ways

still trying to escape aspects of our parents with our aspects of our relationships of our parents. We're trying to prepare. We're trying to heal. We're trying to recover. We're trying to deepen. You know, I mean, your relationship with your parents

is some part of your relationship with the world. and I think what I have realized. So my stepson, my first son, the first boy in whose care was at least in some part my responsibility. He's now 16, almost 17. That's its own stage. That's its own very important stage. Then my first biological son is five. And he's now the age, he's exactly the age when I met my stepson.

So now I have like the kind of download, like here's what I missed and here's, you know, how I now know I would do that. better and then it's like so you just keep it's man it's deep it's crazy and especially the fact that they're all boys oh that's and you know my relationship with my father like that's a that's a memoir you have to wait so both of us both of us are dead can we get the uh the log line you know you know i would imagine you have a pretty good relationship with your father you know in some essential way was he there uh in some essential way i could say yes to both of those things The outward semblance, however, most difficult aspect of my life, undoubtedly. Yeah, and I'm still working through that in real time.

So real time that because I have four boys, I mean, I'm telling you, like, it's its own, it's its own podcast. It's its own book. And, you know, it's not that I am unwilling to go there, but it's so real time right now. Like, I'll just give you a little snapshot. You were mentioning, you know, you said a moment ago, like, you're impressed. well, you're not seeing what it's like on the ground. Well, that's what I'm impressed by it. I'm sure it's chaos and I'm sure it's challenging, you know?

And just to take that on, you know? I mean, I'm not even necessarily ready to take that on or brave enough to take that on. Nobody's never really ready. Nobody's ready to be brave enough. You know what I think it is is like, for me. Yeah. So you asked about my father.

My, and I don't know that we'll keep any of this because I don't know how much we want to make it about me and this, But what I think I'm learning is like, you know, my parents had no idea what they were doing. None. And I don't mean in raising a child. I mean in being together. I mean in relationship. My parents both come from such a sort of vacuum of family that they had no idea what had meant to sustain a relationship.

They had no idea that they shouldn't have gotten together. No, that's a toxic relationship from day one. They were making poor choices. my mom had this biological imperative at nearly 40, which was ancient in the 80s, you know, for a woman. And my dad was like, you know, like, that's not, that's, you know, I can be grateful to their union to some degree because I exist, right? But like, they taught me zero about what it really means to be in a relationship.

Zero. And so then what I had to learn in my life, life, you know, painfully was like what that means to be in relationship. And it started out poor. My relationship, actually the one I was in at the time when we were shooting John Tucker Must Die was a very, very, very, very burdened relationship with a girl who I actually wrote about this in our book. Like, we have a book.

She, at 32 years old, drank herself to death, which, you know, her alcoholism was starting when we were teens, when we were together. And we were together for like four or five years. I thought it was interesting that you said your first relationship, you know, was like one that kind of set the bar really high. Yeah. And then you're, and then you're, and then, you know, it sounds like you were trying to come back around to that. Because that's, that's actually amazing that, you know, talking about parenthood and fatherhood,

the father figures you had and didn't have in your life, I can imagine that that relationship for you, that healthy, good one. It was very meaningful for sure. Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, it really was. Yeah. But relationships are tough. I mean, they are.

I'm only now figuring them out. Yeah. And you can only do it in a relationship, I think, too. It's like people talk about doing the work. There's just so many levels to it, you know, to intimacy. Yeah, yeah. And then so parenthood, I think what it does, parenthood shows you, you know, there's a quote from many people.

It's been kind of like some brilliant people have said it, some less brilliant people have said it, but it's something like when somebody tells you who they are, believe them, the one person in the world who can't do that is a parent. A parent can't tell a child who they are. A child tells the parent who the parent is. A child reflects that back in a way that no other relationship in the world can or should. And there are aspects of you that you aren't forced to contend with until you're a parent.

And then... Well, that's fascinating. Right? And then what you're contending with is like, why am I this way? Well, there are some aspects to, so why are my parents the way that they were? And then you start getting into this thing that you actually can't overcome without a spiritual center because there's nothing that can actually heal all of that. There's nothing that can, like, explain all of it.

Most of it is lost to, you know, unless your parents, like, wrote memoirs. It sounds like you grow immensely from becoming a parent. Yes, that's my experience. I should probably do that. Or get like a really needy dog. I've heard it's the same. Jesse, I want to stay on this train of spirituality and I'm going to share something that I know some people are really going to dislike,

so I don't know if we're going to keep it or edit up. Is it about astrology? I'm going to own it. No, I'm going to own it if we keep it, which is, because I feel like atheists and agnostics are really bold and like implying that religious people are stupid. So this is what I'm going to say. I had heard a few days ago,

someone was talking about how she had like drifted away from spirituality, grew up religious, whatever. But she realized that her mind was becoming dark. Like she was like really like allowing dark thoughts to like overtake her thinking and her heart was becoming like a little bit bitter. And her journey back to spirituality was actually feeling of like feeling like it's a social responsibility, which I really don't think I've ever heard anyone say that for her it was like reckless to move away from it because that'll,

allowed her mind to be overtaken in a sense by like dark thoughts and and to become bitter. And there's no way that that stays like contained within you that definitely like we reverberate that out. So the thing that I was just going to say is like I've never thought of it that way, but I think it's really cool to think about spirituality as like a social responsibility that we have like a social responsibility to protect our thoughts. Or you know, it's it's a practice. It starts there. You know, you have to incorporate it into your daily life. If you don't do, it doesn't just like magically happen.

For sure. Yeah. How do you incorporate it? Yeah. What caused you to turn to it and how did you incorporate it? Depression. Yeah. Caused me to turn to it.

I mean, when you hit a low point in your life, you know, you're not, you're not generally like, you know, hitting your knees and praying to God when everything's going great, you know. So. but I felt like I needed to connect spiritually. I just, I knew that's what I was missing. I knew that my life was devoid of any, like, real connection to God. And, you know, I was losing my sense of joy, you know, my sense of gratitude, my sense of optimism. I can understand, you know, like the story you just recounted about that friend of yours, you know, kind of like falling prey to dark thoughts.

I mean, you know, if you don't reconnect to something, if you don't connect to something greater than yourself, you know, and you're the ultimate driver in your life, and then everything goes wrong, it's like, where do you turn? You know, like you made yourself God. You made yourself, you know, the highest being. And then if you fail, like, what do you do? Just knock yourself off, you know?

I mean, you have to turn to some, some higher power. And I guess that's just ultimately the reason why I believe in God, you know, whatever that means for people. I know what it means to me. But you've got to have some spiritual center. You've got to have a power greater than yourself that exists in your life. Did you grow up with any kind of religious orientation spiritual?

And it was interesting to hear what you just said. No, I didn't grow up with any religion really. You know, I remember when I was young, maybe like 11 years old, I came home. And a girl in the neighborhood had asked me if I had been saved. And I was like, no, what are you talking about? What does it mean to be saved? Save myself from you, peace. Exactly.

Exactly. You know, and she explained to me that if you haven't been, you know, saved. Have I not heard of Jesus? Yeah. All this time. It is 1999. Right. And I have not heard of Jesus.

I didn't really know much about religion at a young age, but that you were like instantly going to hell if you weren't saved. So I ran home and I was like, I need to get saved immediately. And so my mother took me to church, like enrolled me in a, like a catechism class, like an after school class. And I literally went there once and I was like, I'm good. I never want to go back. I'm good if I'm not saved.

I don't care. But it's interesting that you. you had an initial response, which was like, I'm interested in this. Well, the initial response was fear. Yes, right. The critical, yes. Self-preservation, you know? But, I mean, you know, through the course of my life,

through the experiences that I've had in my life, I've found God, I've found spirituality. It's not something that was really imparted to me. It was something that I found at a necessity. Jesse, you've also talked about letting go of, like, a childhood, script and that's kind of I think the first question that I asked you was like what was that in your script and um you talked about like one of the benefits of spirituality being that it allows you to let go of like a prior version of yourself or a story of yourself which is really

I think something that a lot of us need to hear and grapple with because we probably have stories of ourselves that we need to let go of and I'm curious like for you what has allowed you to enter into like an adult story of yourself and what is that story you know I think I just got really sick of living with this wounded little boy inside of me, you know, and he still rears his ugly head every once in a while. You know, the people closest to me have to deal with that and listen to it,

you know, and I'm sure annoyed by it at times, you know, some of the things that come out of this 47-year-old's mouth. But, and this may sound a little pedantic, but a lot of the roles that I've played, I've been able to sort of exercise some of my demons, if you will,

some of like the negative thoughts that I have about myself. You know, recently I just played a father, you know, in a little like rom-com movie that's coming out, you know, in the summer. And I really fell in love with this kid that was playing my son. How old was it? He was 12. Oh, that's it. And he had the best personality.

He was such a talented actor. He was so funny and clever. He was so kind. And, you know, I don't know, pouring a bunch of love into just like that onset relationship and kind of like working up the subtext of, you know, the subtext of the story and building that relationship and playing that. I don't really, it just really warmed my heart, you know, and kind of opened me up to the possibility of fatherhood. But it's moments like that that I could support this sort of young actor and encourage him and tell him, wow, you were really great in that scene.

And I still stay in touch with them now. I just did some ADR for the movie. And I thought the movie was really good. And I thought he was really good. And I reached out to him and his dad. And I said, you're going to be really happy with the movie. There's some really great scenes here. Max did some really amazing work.

And, like, it feels good to give a young man. man like positive reinforcement like that maybe like the type of positive reinforcement that i wished i had as a child or i didn't have as a child and i think that's the best part maybe about becoming a parent is that you kind of get to be the parent that maybe you wished you had you know you can you can heal those wounds by you know showing up for your own child and and and and breaking that generational trauma. Yeah, definitely. That's very true. I also wonder for those who have less of a, I think there's two sides to that. I think it's like, that's the part, well, I'm not sure how to articulate it, but it's like, what about for those who don't have the, like, father-sized hole to fill?

Some don't. Some actually don't. And apparently it's not the two of us, but it's some. I tell you what, that father-sized hole really fuels your ambition. That's for sure. I mean, yeah, a lot of the people that had fathers that told them that they could do no wrong and they were the best thing ever, they didn't amount to much. Failures. So shout out to the fathers out there. Be careful how much you're loving your children. Keep it real. Nobody's going to know the name of my children. That's for sure. Okay, well, this is actually a natural segue to our last question, which we can... No, no, no, wait. We were going to talk about Jesse's skincare brand.

Okay, right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I can't forget that. He's got fucking amazing skin. What do you want for me? Jesse, how do you pronounce it? We'll ask the question, but tell us how to pronounce it. It's pronounced neutral, spelled phonetically, and U-T-R-L skin. We're a direct-to-consumer brand. What does that mean?

It means we're not in any brick-and-mortar stores. Oh, right, okay. You just ordered on the website. We're also on Amazon. So you're online, you're saying? We're online. Okay. We're online, yes.

And I named it neutral because it's a gender-neutral line. I also like the idea of it maybe being like carbon neutral because it's a very clean line. You know, there's no additives, no silicones, no parabens, no fragrances. And we're getting a really, really great response. We've been lucky enough to be on like Good Morning America and the view. And the line's really taken off.

And it's kind of sort of my first foray into being an entrepreneur. And I'm really enjoying the process. I mean, it's laborsome. You know, it's cost intensive. I've sort of financed the whole brand. I haven't brought in any outside investment. But it's going well so far.

We just launched really in June. What inspired you to go into skin care? Well, you know, going back to my adolescence, I had acne, you know, as an adolescent. And it also had kind of a reoccurrence of acne in my early 20s. And when I got into the business, you know, wearing all the makeup and stuff like that. And overcame that. And, you know, people were kind of always telling me I had great skin. And, you know, like we touched on saying I looked considerably younger than I actually am

and were asking about my skincare routine on the red carpet. I was like, you know, maybe this is like a natural extension on my brand and a place where I could have some success. You know, there's not a lot of heterosexual guys pushing skin care. So I was like, you know, maybe this is my lane. Yeah. Straight is the new queer. Hell, you know what I mean?

Soundbite. For listeners, Take it from two streetwit men who are famous and wealthy. We're the new... What is it? I'm not even going to go on with that. Wow, that's too good.

That's too good. We should just end it right there? Yeah. We should. We should. We really... We should have ended it before we got there. Okay, no, I do...

So this... We were coming naturally back to the age of 12, actually, because you know, you played a father. Yeah. And you had this interesting experience. So I feel like you might be unwittingly kind of prepped for this last question in a way that, I don't know,

might be, hopefully it's therapeutic for us all. Cathartic. Yeah, yeah. If you could go back to 12-year-old Jesse, what would you say or do, if anything? Trust yourself. It's all going to be okay. Yeah, I was constantly in survival mode when I was a kid, when I was an adolescent, when I was a teenager, even early days in the business.

It was constant fight or flight. Only now, at the ripe age of 47, am I finally kind of starting to relax? Yeah, I feel the same. No, seriously. Really? Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you, man. It was really good to see you. It was so good to see you. So good to see you. So good to see here. You got it. My pleasure. So nice to meet you. You too.

You can check out Jesse's skincare line, Neutral Skin, at Neutral Skin online. That's N-U-T-R-L Skin. You can also follow him online at Real Jesse Metcalfe. Pod Fresh is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navi Cavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari,

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