Podcrushed - Karamo Brown

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

This week we are blown away by Karamo Brown (Queer Eye, Karamo Show), whose life consists of a series of plot twists almost too-incredible to believe. Karamo opens up about living authentically at school while hiding himself at home, how a one-time encounter with his best friend turned into the greatest plot twist of his adult life, why life after MTV's The Real World was almost unbearable, and how he managed to land his role on Queer Eye even though he missed every round of casting but the last.   Follow Podcrushed on socials: TikTok Instagram XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Well, the first person I was in love with was Brian Dandy. Oh, really? Oh, yes. That gives an extra poignancy. Yes, who has the most amazing. We're still friends, and he has the most amazing, beautiful wife and kids and is a baseball dad. I'm like, if you were a homo, we would have, like, that Oklahoma life right now.

Yeah. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Bonding over our shared disdain for the cool kids click. And no, of course we don't want to be part of it.

Why would we want to be part of the cool kids click? Welcome to Pod Crushed. I have a question for you guys. What's your favorite reality TV show? Do you watch any reality TV shows? Of all time or currently? Let's go currently. I mean, the voice is always current.

Do you think the voice will ever get canceled? I don't know. I hope not. It's in the season like 39. Wow. That's the only one I watch. I should be embarrassed to admit this, but it's currently the Bachelor. It's not always the Bachelor, although I do, I have been watching The Bachelor since Nick Vial's season.

I'm not going to lie. Both do you watch a Bachelor, don't you? Yes. The current Bachelor, I can't say his last time. I'm going to say Joey G. Joey G. And his leading contendent is particularly Daisy, in my opinion. They're so lovely.

that it's like watching really good people fall in love is like very refreshing, which is not how I've always felt about that show. But I'm really enjoying it. And I don't feel embarrassed to admit it this season because there's such good people. That's my read on it. One show that I've been watching recently is Love is Blind. Season 6. Oh, so much better.

So much better. Yeah. How about something different? But one interesting thing that I want to try, with the next season. So I'm going to watch one more season. I thought you're going to say with David. One thing I want to try with David is what I want to try.

Because Elise Myers suggested this is to watch the first episode of the next season of love is blind, blindfolded. So that I can actually see what they might be feeling. I wonder if you'll last. That feels like it'd be uncomfortable. Like you'd be desperate to know. I think I'd get bored. Yeah, that is like that is something that will never happen in my life. Maybe the only way I could watch Love is blind

is blindfolded, I think. And tied up and against the world. Today's guest is an icon from the reality television world. No, who we have today is somebody who really elevates the entire reality, what genre, platform. We have Karamo Brown. You know him definitely from Queer Eye. You might know him also from his new daytime talk show Karamo going into its

second season. If you're old like me, you might know him from the real world, the OG reality show. That is true. And you know, the tagline for Karamo is he's here in season two to embrace the mess. And I got to say, we did that. We had stories that had all kinds of messiness in them. But the man has a very clean arc. Like, I just have to say that there was something about the way he told his stories.

And there's something about the person he seems to have been. from a very early age. I don't know. I was especially charmed. I really was. This is a great episode. Lovely guy. It is, definitely.

Please enjoy. Proceed. We'll see you after the break. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time,

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keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at chewy learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed spelled try n-o-m dot com slash podcrushed why do we do what we do what makes life meaningful my name is elise lunen and i'm the author of honor best behavior and the host of the podcast pulling the thread i explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to pulling the thread from Lemonada Media wherever you get your podcasts. So we always start in adolescence, you know, middle school, like 11, 12, 13. So how were you seeing the world?

What were your experiences like, you know, where were you also? Sure. So 1112, I was in Houston, Texas, where I was born and raised until my parents got divorced when I was 16. Different story. But I was in Houston, Texas. I'm the youngest of sisters. So I was a very outspoken kid at school, at home. I was quiet because my sisters wanted nothing to do with me.

It was like, how much older than? Because my sisters are all older than me. one that's closest than age is five years. So they were all already in high school, going into college. So they wanted nothing to do with their little brother.

Now that's changed. Now I'm the cool. Now they can't get enough of me. My phone rings every day with sisters. But when I was a kid, it wasn't happening. And so I spent a lot of time at home by myself as well.

I started to identify as gay to myself very early. I'll be like 9, 10. and I also knew that I grew up in a very homophobic household not because I was assuming it just because I heard the things that were being said

so at home it was like sisters don't want anything to do with me I know my parents love me but I also know that that's conditional so I'm just going to stay in my room and not be seen not cause any problems and then when I get to school

I'm going to run my mouth all that damn day because I spent all day at home my same thing. And I saw this meme recently that said, like, whatever you got written up for in school, what is your job now? And mine was always, he talks too much, he talks too much, he runs his mouth, he's always in people's business, he's always trying to help somebody. And I'm like, he turned into a career. And it's great. Yeah. So, yeah. So it was like, it was clear, it was a clear split in the way my middle school was, you know, like elementary middle school was of my personality.

Did you feel like you could be more yourself at school? Like, did your friends have a sense of sort of your identity and these things that you were grappling with? 100%. Yeah, yeah. Because I would get to school and I'd run my mouth. And again, because I had sisters, I was more on the effeminate side just because of that's, those are my influences.

And so I don't think any teacher at school didn't think that I was a homo. Like, it was just a kind of, it's kind of known. I mean, like, I spent most of the time, like, at my teacher's desk with my hands on my waist at 15, like, what are you talking about? What are you doing? I have so many photos like this. I'm like, I don't know what supermodel I thought of my head and, you know, I was doing poses. So, yeah, they, it was every, it was aware. And also because majority of my schools were always all white, it was usually not that many people of color. I also was usually the tallest. So nobody ever bothered me.

Oh. And so I was able to just be myself, be me, talkative, everything, flamboying in a way. And, yeah. Yeah. Where was at home, I was quiet, stood still, didn't get any trouble. Like, my parents to this day will say they were like, you were the most, you were the best out of our kids. Like, you didn't say anything. You didn't give us any problems.

And I was like, yeah, because I was terrified. So I just, you know, did the thing. Did your family have any sense of that difference between how you were at school and how you were at home? Actually, this is a story I've never told anybody. There was a time that in, it was sixth grade, my father had to come to school and he was cussing the teachers out, not literally cussing, because they had sent home like a thing for me talking too much. And he was like, you are higher, you are racially pro-profile. And my child, you are, because he was like, I know my child. And my child is quiet and introverted and he was like raging.

And I should bring that up to him because he, you know, they were just trying to fight him. But he was so convinced. I was like, I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to go. He's saying. I'm going to get trouble. I'm quiet. Yeah, I'm quiet.

Like, I don't know what you are talking about. And I got out of trouble that day because he argued the hell out of the teachers like, you're lying on my son. is not um and then it was maybe like two weeks later they called him in the middle of the day and was like come up here and see your child and i think i was like on a table like acting out they had him like peeking to the yeah so they had the insight then to be like this man does not know the whole story so they hold him up without letting you know without letting me know wow yeah yeah but also props to your father for standing up for you like that That's what I'm saying.

Of course. Yeah. Even though he was incorrect, but. Yeah, he was really incorrect. Yeah. Yeah. Only reason it stands out is because that was the moment that I felt like my parents actually started to see the real me.

It was like the cracks were in now. Like, it's like, damn. I was going to ask, do you ever feel like there was a point where you could be yourself around your parents? Sort of how did that happen if it happened? Um, yeah. Once I became successful, it was like, F, what do you think? I'm on TV now.

You need to borrow money for me. It's not the opposite way around. I'll do whatever the hell I want. No, I think it was when I was an adult, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah, it took a while because it was always, I grew up in a Caribbean household. So my family, they are not from this country. My parents are from Jamaica and Cuba.

So there is a very specific way children act. And you always respectful. You always say certain things, do certain things. And, you know, I never felt like my opinion mattered. my household where with my kids, your opinion matters. So you can speak it to me in a respectable manner. Yeah. And so yeah. So because of the way we were raised, I didn't really until I became an adult felt like I could now start saying things. You don't have to answer any question. You're not comfortable asking me. You do seem like an open book. But you've been really open

about the importance of facing our fears in life and how that sort of helps us move through things. And I was curious when you were a tween, a teen, what were you most afraid of and were you able to face it. What was I most afraid of? I mean, the obvious was, I guess, people, you know, finding out at home that I was gay, but that also wasn't a fear because I kind of, because I already knew that they didn't like gays. I didn't fear it. It's like, you know, if you already know what the boogeyman looks like and where he sleeps and when he is, you're not, like, really afraid. Because I, at an early age, I already knew, I already had things in place if my parents were to ever act erratic, you know, even though I didn't, I didn't make a real plan, but in my mind, I had a plan.

Like, my best friend next door, his name is Brian Bandy. We were best friends. I had already kind of set up, like, I can stay here for weeks at a time, right? And the bandies were always like, yes, you can. Of course we'll take care of you. Of course we'll feed you. So that's why I was like, I wasn't fearful because I already had set up things. I had already set up things at school. Figured out your plan. I used to not spend my lunch money for the longest. I mean, even up until high school, I would get lunchmen. I wouldn't spend it because I would save it just in case I used to tell myself if I needed to buy a bus ticket, which I never needed to do. But in my mind, I was setting up things.

I still that way. I'm a big planner. And so I'm always, and that started from then, like I plan, plan, plan everything ahead of time. Like, you're never going to catch me slipping on finances on life because I plan. Yeah. That's amazing. But to answer you, of course, I'm fearful.

If I think about it, I think the thing that was most fearful of is staying silent, which is why I had so many outbursts at school because I was like, I cannot be silent my entire life. Because my mother was abused by my father and she was silent and I knew that I didn't want to be her. And so I think I was most fearful of being silent. I don't want to like jump out of middle school, but I feel like that's really profound because when we were sort of doing research about this, and I actually watched the real world, Philadelphia, you were the first, like, openly gay person on reality television,

and that's such an emblem of, like, not being silent at a time when everyone else was, you know? So that's, like, incredible. How old are you? You look very young, girl. How old are you? I'm older than I look. I'm 39.

Okay, okay, that's good. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, I guess, yeah, it's always, I guess my entire career has been, like, speak-ups, talk out, like. I mean, sometimes it's, it's intentional and sometimes it's just not. Oh, like, the real world, I would say that it was intentional, but it wasn't. Like, I was like, oh, so I'm done with college and I can live in a house with two hot tubs and get free liquor.

Yes. Yeah, thank you. Oh, and by the way, you're the first openly gay black guy. You know what I mean? And I was like, oh, oh, okay. But it still comes with liquor, right? So, like, that's like, you know. So, I mean, it wasn't.

So after the real world was done, that, like, that title was put on me by the network. And it was like, you know what you just did. And I was like, right, right, of course. I didn't do anything. You all asked me. I was coming on here to have fun. And liquor. Yeah.

Yeah. Cromo, what were your first experiences around, like, whether it was a crush or whether it really felt like love, whatever that is at middle school, high school age? What were your first experiences around that for you? Well, the first person. I was in love with was Brian Vandy. Oh, really? Who, yes. That gives it extra poignancy.

The whole bandy situation. We're still friends and he has the most amazing beautiful wife in kids and is a baseball dad. I'm like, if you were a homo, we would have like that Oklahoma life right now. Yeah. But he was, I just, I think it was just the fact that he, he was all, he was just so kind. I just I think it was the first boy I met and even at that age he played sports he was like the baseball star he just was right and I just I just I just remember just being infatuated with his kindness his kindness his kindness and then after that it really wasn't hard for me to express crushes because again hey so I hit in middle of school I hit five 10 wow And by ninth grade, I don't think that anyone in my school was that tall.

Yeah, yeah. And then by ninth grade, I hit 6-3 and had a full beer. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, so, like, if I ever studied my high school photo, like, I look like a grown-ass man. I look like that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, you know, I look like a T. Seriously.

Yeah, right. So, like, so I was able to express my desires because people, were attracted to the adult qualities in me. You know, like my classmates were like, you have a beard, you're tall, you know? And so, like, it was easy for me. And then I also felt very comfortable telling people that I liked guys because all the girls thought I was cute.

Yeah, I was going to say, you must have been such a, like, kind of like an untouchable gem or something, you know what I mean? Yes, because the girls liked me and they thought I was cute and they thought it was funny that I said I like boys. They didn't take it serious. Like, which was funny because we had Big Gate, Dan, that was in our class. And that's what he called himself and everyone called him.

And then he was the only out there out one. And it was funny because he was, because he didn't have this sort of privilege of height. And height is huge in school. Yeah. And they're huge. And facial hair. Yeah. When people say what he said he's gay, it was like, fun.

Oh my gosh. Like it was a thing. And then when I said it, it was like, oh my gosh, you make silly. Like they didn't believe you. Yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting. You know what I'm like?

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. So yeah, but it was fun. We have a question we ask everyone, which is, do you have any embarrassing stories like any awkward memories or something that sort of stands out to you from middle school or high school um yeah it's it's awkward but it's not really i mean like i didn't really know

how to shave so the first time i tried i shaved off one side and made a big thing and i got scared and so i had half a beard half not and you know but it's it i remember i i guess it's awkward now in hindsight but i was such a overtalker yeah that if someone even tried to clown me about it. I just started conning myself. Yeah, I was like, I mean, you're going to do this soon. You know what I mean? Also, you're the only one with a beer in school. I mean, that's like that's the only one. No matter what. Yeah. So like no one was like saying anything. So, you know.

Yeah. I kind of like how cool you work because you're certainly cool now. You know, I mean, that's, that's the coolest man alive. That's part of your thing. Are you saying, did you say says the coolest man alive? Yeah. You're cool. Oh, all right. Penn's going to write that in his diary. That's going to be Penn's new profile. Don't throw him off. Don't throw him off. No, no, no, no, no.

This is what you need to understand, that you have that cool, easy swag that, like, you just can, like, chill and be. And then all of a sudden, like, people will attach all their feelings and thoughts about onto you because we have to work. And so, like, that makes you automatically cool because you walk in the room and it's like, oh, my gosh, he's like a musician. He's mysterious. is and you probably play an instrument. I do, but not and not, not like, not like that. So yeah, yeah. Karamo, have you always had this ability to kind of just like size up a person, not in a bad way, but just like to see certain things about a person very easily?

Because I don't think you tell us what we are. Yeah, yeah. We're next thing. But have you always been able to do that? Um, I could tell you that you're both stunning. You didn't have my best skin is flawless. So let's that first. Thank you.

But I think, I think, yeah. And it's only because of having sisters, I had to consistently, to understand where I fit in my household. I had to consistently figure out what they were feeling without them saying it. So because I learned very early on with my sisters, I can't fill in the blanks. So I need to be observant and really observe how they acted, how they moved, what they said, So that I could truly understand, which I think is a skill that helps me now in my career. Totally. Being able to, like, talk to people quickly and see discomfort, see something.

And it just came from them because, like, you have your sister that promises she'll play with you when she gets home. And then she comes in and she's, she walks right by you. You're like, is that about me? Do I do something? And then she's on the phone. So you're like, okay, so she still wants to talk to somebody. But, you know. And so it was like, I had to decipher quickly.

quickly, what is she feeling? What is she thinking? And I think that's a quality that I always continue to do. By the way, I'm going to show you this really quickly. I just found it. This is this is me in high school. This is ninth grade. This is a regular high school student, my friend, Ray. Yeah. And this is grown me with. That's crazy. That's ninth grade. That's 14. This is 14. That is crazy. Yeah, so I'm telling you, I was like Yeah, grown man

You honestly I'm trying to think of all our guests And we've had quite a few You you seem like your Physicality enabled you To have I mean it sounds to me like it gave you Some really helpful protection from what could have

Otherwise been even more painful 100%. 100% you hit it on the nose Like I know for a fact in my house and at school if I wasn't the height and look that I had, meaning beard, I don't, you know, not about like physicality, but like beard, chest here already. If I didn't have these things, I, and being so open in 1990, I'm 43, so 1995 is when I started high school.

And there's a time where we don't have representation like we have now, the conversation. around LGBTQIA people is very limited. I mean, you were either gay or lesbian, and bye was like, you know, still people didn't believe you. You know, there wasn't all these that I know for a fact, being so tall, being, having full facial hair made me an authority in kids' minds without them thinking of me as an authority. Yeah.

Because I looked like their older brother. I looked like a college student, and so they didn't challenge me the same way they would have, like, you know, somebody else. And so I know it protected me. I know for a fact because I saw other people who got bullied that I would then try to protect by using, like, my body stature who, like, today always are friends that are like, I would grab them and be like, oh, you're not going to, like, mess with my boy. And I grab them and pull them back. And everyone would leave me alone because I'm holding him now or holding. And so it was like, you're not going to mess with him because you're messing him. Now I'm holding him.

You got to mess with me. And so I know that, you know, help me out of a lot. It sounds like you were a really good friend. Yeah. I actually will say I am because all of my, I don't know why my voice got high there. Because I guess I've said I wanted to compliment. I will say yes because all of my friends in high school, we are still best friends to this day. And we all live around the corner.

That's so cool. And so also, I'm probably one of the people in our high school-based group that, like, always gets hit up even before TV. And that's only because, like I said, I was a peer counselor in high school. So I would get everyone's business. So I knew everyone's business from then and kept their secrets. So I feel like they kind of feel attached to that. Yeah. And we'll be right back.

all right so um let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to 10 and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family

holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and I'm telling you um even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I uh I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that I use I use uh the what is it called liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good um comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning, really good for gut health. And although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also

use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrush for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real

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fashion TV on VH1 was like all the thing and every fucking music video was like it was like you came home to MTV and VH1 it was like oh yeah it was sexy and it was yeah it was sexy you wanted to be it I remember watching when Ashton Coucher won the male model of the year like on fashion TV on H1 like I remember that and being like he's cool for that I don't know like I don't I don't you know follow his career now to not being shady so sorry um yeah um because that can sound shady like I don't know like but I remember him winning that um yeah I wanted to be that um I wanted to be a TV host I know that I talked show host because I thought that was the coolest thing ever watching like Bill Donnie you on Ricky Lake I just was like I want to do that like they're getting paid to like be in people's business again just nosy yeah and you I didn't want to be that I knew I didn't want to be in anything where I would have to do math. It was like all superficial.

My mind was like, how can I like do the least amount of work? Just run my mouth. That's all I knew. Like, you know. But it sounds like you're listening a lot. I mean, you know, you are a listener as well. Oh, yeah. Well, I used to get in trouble.

My granny would like give me a little tap if I was running my mouth too much in places where she was around. And she would say, remember, Karamo, you have two of these, two ears and one mouth. so he's supposed to be doing one double time. And that still sticks with me. Like, I could be on stage helping somebody and I might want to say something and I'll feel her in an important snack. Shut up. Let him keep talking.

You know, and so, yeah. What was your path from sort of high school to the real world? And then I do have a couple of real world questions because I really did watch those seasons faithfully and I watched yours. Yeah. The path was I went to college. college and college was great. And where I got on real world was that I was protesting MTV. Oh.

What? Yeah. There was a show that was on back and they called Pem My Ride. Yeah, I remember Pem My Ride. And I was just-in-that exhibit? Yeah, with Exhibit. And so I had just got out of college. And so I was working at this nonprofit and I had to run the Out of School program in it.

And my kids, because I moved to L.A., and my kids were stealing from cars to, like, put things on, like, their cars and so my young mind was like this is not like what i know now would be like let me talk with their parents i need to figure out where they are emotionally and mentally because they feel like they're not enough and they have to show off and like they're all now my thought but back then i was like it's exhibit yeah we're going straight to exhibit bad influence like it's MTV's fault like you weren't wrong you're just yeah it's a top down mentality yeah and so being young i was like i got together like about 10 of the families, one of my other coworkers, we made poster boards. This is the best story we've ever heard on the podcast.

And I went out there, my boyfriend, we made posters all night and we went out there to what did they say? What exactly were you? They were like, that protester is gorgeous. We have to get it. Guys, have you seen that protester? Well, kind of. They came outside and they were like, who's doing?

Who organized this? And I was like, me and my boyfriend. And they were like, hold on, young, gay, black, activisty, angry. They were like, how could we monetize this protest? Yeah, how can we monetize this crazy that we're sitting in front of us?

And then they were like, come back the next day. And they were like, you know, you can. This is so. You put it with your protest signs. Yeah. Come back to the next day and we'll talk to you. And so I went home and I created the best 20-page PowerPoint you've ever seen with transitions. I worked on this shit all night.

And this is before you could just get on the internet and grab stuff. Like, this is 2004. So, like, to download the images, I was like, I was like, and got there the next day, ready to tell them, like, how to save our kids and how to help them. And they were like, actually, we want to, this is a casting for the real world. and I threw that PowerPoint to the side And you were like never had the kids I don't know her What kids?

I don't know where those kids are today I don't I don't like And it's so funny how quickly my mind went from Lys Save the kids So like I get the all reality TV And they

It was a short casting Because I was clearly a nut It was like the shortest casting It was four months I mean four weeks And they were like You're on the show Wow

So four weeks from protesting I was on Heading to Philadelphia To shoot Amazing I literally never thought about Those children again Wow

And the funny part is when we got on the real world Yeah Because they got us jobs That were with our personalities My job was to work with kids And I was pissed I was like I left I didn't leave my real world

The real world I was going to go on the real world and work with kids. I was like, over it. So the entire time I was an asshole when we were building them. We were supposed to build them a playground, these underprivileged kids. And I was an asshole the entire thing.

I was like, I don't build a freaking playground. I was like, I want to get back to the house. I want a model. I want to go out. But it's just so crazy how, again, like I was in this role. And then the minute, like, an opportunity to drink and hang out came. Yeah. For all of our young listeners.

The real world was, I think, like, the first reality TV show, the first popular one? It was the first. There technically was one before it called, like, it was this family back in the, like, the, like the 70s. Oh. The only reason I know this is that they made in HBO, I auditioned for the role to play this kid in, and he was gay. He was technically the first openly gay person. So he's taken that way for you. No, no, no.

I was the first gay. black one versus gay black yes so so this so this kid but there's just like one family that predates it all but then they didn't do but then there was nothing like it again and i cannot remember the name of this family but like anybody who is you know 60 knows this isn't the robinson crusoe no no no this is amazing i didn't know about this is uh this is uh and they made an HBO series about this and i'm pretty sure james gandelfini was in it it was um uh yeah anyway You know, the only reason I remember is because I really wanted that role. Yeah.

And I really went, you know, it was like, you know, but it's interesting because it does, it was like the, the seed of reality television that now kind of nobody knows about. Yeah. Because it didn't then actually happen again until the real world. So the real world really was the first one that anybody knows. This is fascinating. I've never heard about this. Let me look at them. Looking it up.

Yeah. Well, Penn looks this up. So the like tagline for the world is what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real? Is that was that there? Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And there wasn't really like a, like now there's like the bachelor or the real housewives.

Like there's like a like a theme. But this was really just seven, seven strangers living together. Seven strangers. It was seven strangers. Put in a house. See what happens when they stop being polite and start getting real. The real world. And I think now we have a sense that they're kind of scrambling.

But it felt like the real wasn't. And I'm just curious, was it a little bit scripted? Like, how much were producers involved? How much was it just very real? So if I can be honest with you, I don't feel like it was scripted. Well, for my experience, it wasn't scripted. And the reason I say that is because, okay, maybe it was scripted in the sense of, like, the scenarios they put us in. So they knew, like, we're going to bring them to a bar.

We know we're going to do this. But it was, I mean, like, they just were good at putting. personalities in the house they knew would clash. Like, they put you against somebody who they knew would like trigger you. And to this day, when people ask me for advice on how to get a

reality television and they have all these things, I'm always like, you need to go in there and tell these people three people or three things that triggered you. Like, what are the things that upset you? Because when they're casting, they're casting you against someone. So if you're going in there talking about how amazing I am and all these things,

you're not getting past round one. But if they can start to build a scene of being like, okay, well, he said that his mother was an alcoholic and he hates alcoholics. And we're going to put him with this woman who's an alcoholic, that's what it. And so I'm like, the more, and this is to this day, if somebody wants a tip on getting cast on reality television, here it is. Go with your top three things that are going to trigger you and push those because those are things are going to cast you against with someone else. Going with all your problems. You know what I mean? Okay, so I found out

it's such an iconic name to Lance Loud. Has anybody ever heard? No, no. And it's the Loud family. There was their surname, and it was in 1973. And it was a PBS series called an American family. This is very interesting,

because I've literally never before or after ever heard anyone mention this family. It was a series, it was like, I think it got nominated for a few Emmys or whatever. So it is, it's a thing. But very interesting. It just, it's like, it's like, sort of like this kid, I mean, he was, it was a big cultural moment.

He's sort of like, you know, your quiet predecessor. And a lot of people don't talk about, yeah, Lance Loud. And it was a, I mean, that's pretty amazing because in the 70s to be openly gay on a reality program in PBS, when PBS in the 70s was a, like, that was like an NBC station. Like, you know, like, right. Wow. No, I know. So it is interesting that it, but then again, like nothing really ever. there was not even another reality show

that I can think of until the real world. I'm pretty sure there wasn't another one. So this, and by the way, this was a documentary series. So back then, I think they didn't, yeah, it wasn't even like you would think of it as television. Yeah, it was really its own. Different from a reality show, kind of. It's a docu series.

And this guy, Lance Loud, was really an interesting icon. You know, that was, until I played Jeff Buckley, that was probably the role I can remember as a teenager. as a teen and like young adult wanting the most didn't get it what was it like for you when you left because you know now reality TV is really established but I I'm trying to think like how would people have treated you like kind of a celebrity but it's also something that the audience isn't used to like a famous person who's famous for being themselves so I'm just curious like how did that change your relationships with people in the public how did it change your view on

yourself like how did you process all of that oh my gosh it was the worst thing ever I hated coming off the real world um The day that they told us we were going home, I mean, I cried. And I, in hindsight, I wasn't crying because of my caspades. I was crying because I realized that something was about to change because you start to get the sense of it when you're walking around a city and people see with the cameras and how rude people were. And so I knew something negative was coming. My intuition knew something bad was coming. And it came like a storm.

Wow. Because to be 23 and have the world only tell you who you are is the worst moments that were edited. Wow. That's huge. Forever was depressing. It just made me sad. No matter what you did, you were only that moment. Did you feel used?

I felt betrayed. I didn't feel used. Yeah. Yeah, I felt betrayed. I felt betrayed because the adults that were there, I felt like they should have told me what was about to happen. I mean, I was on season 15, so you had 15 seasons to warn me that, like, this is going to be a shit show.

Like, you're going to have people tell you how bad you are. They're going to comment on you. I mean, like, I remember my castmate, she had an eating disorder. And it was like the minute we got off the show, people would tell her, tell her about her weight consistently in order to trigger. Oh, my gosh. And it was because it was like other college kids. So they thought it was funny and they didn't do whatever.

And like, it just was. We would do these like MTV bar crawls where people would get us drunk to then try to fight us. Wow. And they would start being negative to us to like get us to be to fight. It was like they would build you up to tell you must they loved you just to get you drunk enough to fight you. and that was with everyone. Yeah, so I became completely depressed and suicidal after the real world because I didn't know how to handle it. It destroyed my relationships with my family who were embarrassed that I had told all of our business on television or my business, but they thought it was their business.

Yeah. Yeah, it was dark. I'm sorry to hear that. To this day, there's not enough support for reality stars when they, I'm off of shows. I think, you know, we make it seem like, oh, you're going to be famous. Like, no one's letting them know, like, just know that even though your show was five years ago, in five years, we're only going to remember when you did not do, when you did blank. And you're going to be defined by that. And unless you're on a show like the housewives where you get to have season after season, which is rare for most reality stars, you are their worst moment.

And I don't think people understand that there's also no money in it unless you're on a consistent show. So I got out that show and I was broke as hell. So I just quit my job. Yeah, I was quit my job and I'm broke now. And I'm too known because I don't like the word famous. I was too known to get like a job at a Walgreens or CBS or even like I tried to go back to the nonprofit I was working for and they wouldn't let me because I was too much of a distraction. Wow. And so I would try to go like I went to a CBS I remember, which is like a for anybody, you know, like a, I think I.

I think CBS is a nationwide. Yeah, yeah, they're nationwide. Yeah, I didn't know, I didn't know. They didn't used to be nationwide, though. You're right. Yeah. Okay, yeah. And so I tried to, and it was too much of a thing.

People would come in and they were like, you're the guy from the real world. And it became like a thing where college kids would come in just to see me. So they were like, you can't work here. Yeah. And so, but then I couldn't make any money unless I went to bars to drink, which then turned into an addiction for me. Wow. Because I hated liquor. So I would try to do a lot of cocaine.

to counter the liquor taste. Wow. And the first time I got into juice, like it was just a snowball. That's such a, that's crazy. And no one said it. Yeah. And I don't think, I still to this day,

don't think that people talk about the experience of reality television, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. I think that more people should talk about that it is, it can be a great experience that will give you and a leg into so many opportunities. But I would say for 90% of people,

you are your self-esteem is affected your mental health is affected you are not making any money you are in weird limbo with friends and family and there's not enough support from production from

from networks from anyone when it comes to supporting these reality stars I mean a lot of from what I've heard like little snippets I've heard of different people

on different reality shows sounds like production is sort of the source like they that you have like producers on a lot of shows who are orchestrating these situations to create like really flammable scenarios and then editing in a particular way. I'm going to have a little different thing.

I don't actually brain production because at this point in our culture, you know that you're coming on there for them to do that. What for me is, is, I think it would take, like I'm producing, I'm now just, I just sold my first, you know, my two, I just sold two non-scripted shows that we're in development

for I'm about to do. And so hopefully they make it all the way, thanks. You know, hopefully they make it all the way to television. I don't know if y'all know about this process, but it's a long, it's problems I'm learning. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I'm putting into my reality shows that on the last day, the contestants would have to stay another week to be prepped for mentally and emotionally for what's going to come next. And that's only because I've been through it. So I think it would be It's easy for just a production or a network just to do that.

Just add on a week of budget where you keep the same people in the same house and say, hey, before you all go, these are the things that are going to happen. You don't have to make it a week, two days. Let's give you support. Let's give you resources. Let's give you numbers to call. So when your self-esteem drops, when this happens, how to manage your social media, meaning not to like get fame and followers, but how to manage the tons of comments you're going to get

and people telling you about yourself, like, it's just an easy process. could be solved and then like maybe we wouldn't have people walking away and becoming disasters because of reality television. What was your experience like getting cast on Queer Eye? Also weird. So I was working fully in social services now. I had been off of television because of the real world. Again, it's like, so you protesting Netflix.

Yeah, no, I was protesting Netflix. Wait, can you actually just tell us a little bit about how you did legitimately get involved in social services and then kind of, you know, because that's interesting. So, I mean, that's what I went to school for. I went to school for social work. And so that's why I was always in a nonprofit scene. And then once, like, the real world was fully done, I kind of got myself sober. I found help.

It's like now I, and then I also found I was a father at that point. I went back to becoming, you know, just working a real job. And so quick thing, the way I found out I was a father is that the only girl I ever slept with, who was my best friend in high school. she had a boyfriend she wanted to lose her virginity she was going to lose her virginity to him but she was scared that she's going to suck so she asked if she could lose it to me

because that was a gay best friend this is crazy what is the numbers on that the numbers on that you can be just one to one I mean at 15 I was like sure I'll do you a solid yeah

that's a practice yeah and so I mean it lasted literally she jokes about it now because it was so close for 10 seconds 15 and I was like stop no thank you i would never like to do that again please um never again and um she moved away

and because we're you know like and this is like there was no ad there was not social media wait wait can i can i just ask so hang on hang on did she didn't don't you think she just really wanted to sleep with you though so that does sound like a 15 year old we talked about it now in her mind she was really trying she really meant it because she had a boyfriend and she didn't see me as cheating because I was gay. I can honestly, having been a 15 year old girl, I can totally see. No, I get it. Yeah, like, we sat up at night time talking about boys.

Yeah. So, like, she didn't see me as a boy who's going to date her. She just, I was safe for her. And she thought, like, if we're going to practice, like, I know you won't take advantage or do something weird. Yeah. And we also didn't really, I guess, and I guess we never talked about it, but I was like, We also didn't really talk about, like, will this, you know, your, will my thing thing work?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, we just assumed, yeah. And I was 15. So, like, a breeze turned me on, you know. Like, I don't even need that, really, frankly, at 15. Yeah. So, you know, and so it happened, but she moved away. I stayed at the same place. And because, you know, there was no social media, we didn't have cell phones in the way that we have access to now. Yeah. I just never thought of her again. And then. after I got off the real world, and like two years after in real world, I got a stack of papers for back child support for child I didn't know existed. Oh, my gosh. She wasn't planning on telling me she had applied for benefits for her other children. And the state found me and to like garnish my checks. And that was how I found out of father, my best girlfriend in high school.

Is that how you got in touch, back in touch? Yeah, I went back to Texas, to Houston, Texas. and they gave me her. It was like really, literally, I went there to the DNA thing with them. They wouldn't give me any information. And then once it was confirmed, she still didn't even know that I was doing this because they didn't let her know. They passed a piece of paper over the desk and was like, you are the father.

Here's your address. And I literally took it and then showed up at her door and knocked on it. Wow. And she opened it. And we just immediately when I saw her, I was kind of angry before, but then when I saw it, we were just 15-year-olds again. And we just telling each other's arms. and started and we started talking and crying and then she was like he's at school now if you

want to come back later and meet him I'm sorry I didn't have a concert that he wouldn't be owned because I don't have kids in 26 so it's 12 o'clock in the afternoon and I'm like where's he at he's like school where kids are so he was 11 or 10 that's like you were 26 and you had a 9 year old like 9 year old yeah and so and then we met that night I took him bowling. This is a funny story if I tell you this really quickly. I took him bowling because that's what you did on Fuller House or on families. That's what you do. You meet somebody and you take him bowling. That's what Dad's do. So I took him bowling and I picked him by that night. He was so, I was scared. He was scared. We went to the bowling alley and

the bowling alley was next to Rice University. And so I walked in and I didn't know it was next to Rice University. We're bowling. I had the photo of it. I'm like in a, I borrow all my cousin's sweater vest he's a dad like he was like yeah I borrow like I got a phone thing so that I could have like the cord so I can look more daddish I wore I wore like these like church shoes

with my jeans because I didn't want to look like I want him to think like I'm a dad yeah and hold on what's the phone like you sound more like Secret Service with the what do you mean the phone no you remember like before pods there was like the black cord that went to like Right, okay. Yeah, and so it dangled and it connected down.

I don't know. It was very CIA. You're right, the ear pieces used to be like, it seemed like only men did that. Yeah, yeah. Only men, yeah. And so, like, more dad. Yeah, dad, yeah, yeah. So I, we went to the bowling alley, I'll be quick.

And so we walk in, we're bowling. And then, like, within 10 minutes, I hear, oh, shit, is that Karamo from the real world? And I turn. And there's a bunch of high school, I mean, a bunch of college kids there. like, Karamo, they're like, yo, come over here. Now, I've been doing bar crawls for the past two years. So I went right back into the same thing like I did when I

got on real world. I was like, fuck the kid. It's been a pattern in my life. I'm really responsible on a great day. But I literally was like, I was like, hold on a second. And I went over there. And I started taking shots and partying with these college kids. Oh, my gosh.

And. And literally, the only reason I stopped is because I heard we're looking for if someone missing their child and they were doing it over the thing and I was like I was like somebody's missing their child oh I'm missing my child and I was like shit and I ran back and my kid

Jason was behind the where the guy was polishing the shoes and stuff and you know whatever was behind there because I just abandoned him for an hour and a half taking shots and that was what turned me into a good dad because I said I'll never do that again. You will always be on my priority. And I made it my priority six weeks later. I asked for

full custody because she wasn't doing well financially. And I had my family who's doing better. She supported me and getting it. I got full custody. Wow. I adopted his little brother. Yeah. I adopted his little brother. They have the same mother, two different fathers. This is an amazing story. This doesn't get better and better and better. Yeah. And so by 27, I became a father of two overnight. What? And now they're 27 and 23. And I've had full custody since they were 10 and 7 and um just looking at your face i cannot believe you have a 27 yeah i mean you were young when you had him but still it's wild it's wild it's wild um but yeah so that was me becoming a dad and there was a question that came after this just your path to queer eye

it was oh yeah the path to queer i definitely but this was such an amazing story so doing social services i was working and i want to get back in tv now the kids are in high school and i'm like let's go out of my dream, figure out how to really do this TV thing. So I was taking hosting classes at the community college. And I was in bed with my partner watching Watch What Happens Live. And Carson Fressley, who was on the original where I was on. And he said, will there ever be a reboot? And he said, yeah, they're doing it right now.

And they're, but they're not bringing back any of the other five. They're getting new five new guys. And they started listening off like Ariana Grande's brother and stuff like that. You know, people that they thought in pop culture were to be on it. And I woke my boyfriend up at 11 o'clock and I was like, I got to get on this new queer eye. Wow. And he was like, you don't cook.

You don't, you're fashionist shit. He was like, you're bald. What are you going to do? You don't know what I do hair. And I was like, I don't know, but I got to get on it. And so I called the agent that I had just gotten. I was like, can you try to get me in? He called me back that same day and was like,

they've already done the casting. They've been doing it for a year during their final phase. Oh, my gosh. I begged him for a week to get me in. He called his friend Gretchen, who we had known since they were PAs. She was part of the head of casting. And she was like, I'll give him a Zoom for like 10 minutes just so we can see if other projects, but it probably wanted to be queer eye.

Yeah. They asked the category. And he was like, well, what category? And I was like, I don't know. And so he was like, he literally on the phone was like, let's just tell him culture. Wow. And I was like, sure. And so I got on this call and she was like, so what do you bring to this show?

And I just started ranting about like, y'all never get into, because I watched a couple of episodes of the original. And I was like, y'all never get deep into their mental health. Like, you got to talk about their mental health. Like, if you can't talk about like what they went through, I was like, you know, when I'm in my job, like, I have to get to the core of like, why did you do this? Because if you don't get to that, then she just was enamored. And so she was like, I'm going to bring you into the final casting. And so she brought me into the top 40. with the rest of them

and then I walked in with the other culture guys and they were all like playwrights and poets and dancers because it was like culture was supposed to be arms and then I was in there

talking about mental health and I knocked those bitches out one by a while I was like sorry to you're mental health I'm taking this shit and the only reason I think I stood out because

they all were saying the same things They were like, you know, I would take someone to expose them into this gallery. And I was coming in and I was like, so what's in the backstory? Like, you know, and these are fictitious people we were doing this chemistry test. And I was like, well, what is it? And they made the cast and hers. They were like, well, I guess he has two kids. And I was like, is he a good father?

Is he happy? And so I said, it's Katney's question. They were like, oh, we're going deeper here. Yeah. And got the job and changed. I feel like every story you've told is like a once in a lifetime, but like that's your whole life. That is my life, God honestly It's like it's crazy

There's somebody up there that is writing this shit That is like having the best laugh of it I already know I'm gonna get to heaven And they're gonna be like I was in open shirt of your life I got the Karama story line That's my guy

He's gonna be like So you didn't know when I was on earth I was a comedic writer And so I just wrote your shit like He's like I'm doing bar curls up here man I'm doing bar curls up here And just writing all the crazy shit That comes to my mind

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Karamo, so as we've established, you've been doing this your entire life. You've been listening to people, having them open up to you and talking them through their stuff. And I wonder, in all of this, have you found there are certain things that help a person to go there with you to open up? Obviously, I think, yeah, the obvious one is to share. your own experiences and to get vulnerable yourself. But is there anything else that help someone? Yeah, I would tell people the thing that if they have someone in their life that they're wanting to open up, I would tell them to shut up because I realize.

Interesting. So I'm not what I said. Because most people will. Yeah. But like for me, the reason that I think people open up, but to make it for others is like when I get quiet, people start to fill in the blanks work. And so I do it on queer all the time. I'm like, so why do you think you're feeling this way? And I just start nodding my head and like, it's going to be okay.

And they just start to open up. And it's happened with even the most closed off people. And because I think most people are uncomfortable with silence where because as a child, I had to be silence in my household. I'm not uncomfortable with silence. And so I was like, I don't mind being quiet until you open up. And a lot of people was like, if someone doesn't start talking, you're like, but what are you feeling? Talk to me.

Like, was this about this? They start to like get anxious and have to like, and I'll just sit there and be quiet. And I think that is a tool that I realize that more couples could engage in with a partner who might be feeling. It's like, give time people the time to process to speak. get their own pace and they will eventually open up because the more that they see that you're patient with waiting with them, the more that they can feel like, oh, this is not something that is a check off your list. I can feel secure with you. And so I think that's one of the biggest tools that I use to get people to open up. I also let people know immediately that I won't

judge and I make sure my body language shows them I won't judge first of all. So like I'm leaned in. I'm doing affirming nods. These are just tips that like, and, anybody wants to use with their kids or anybody like you can like lean in when you're talking firm with nods um don't be closed like this when you're talking be open with your arms be open with your legs um you know yeah um overly smiling actually makes more people uncomfortable um so yeah interesting all these little small things i know that's really helpful hopefully you can use them in your own life no well actually i was what to say i feel like i was meant to hear this because I'm supposed to have a conversation

with someone tomorrow that I've been like excited about and dreading and feeling like this person just needs to open up. Like I've opened up a lot and it's their turn. I'm like how do I help them open up? And I feel like I was meant to hear this because I would not shut up. So I'm like I'm going to shut up. I think you just need

remember. Remember Corona's Nana just knocking you just on the side of the 10 years. One month. One mouth. Listen more. Yeah. That is great. I have a question about sort of men, I guess, in sort of, like, in the show, I've noticed that when the hero is a man, I feel like there's just a different thing. Like, they melt around you in the sense of like, I feel like there's something frozen in them that actually starts to thaw and we see it on camera.

I appreciate it. It's really true. It's really moving. There was a particular episode where you, like, gathered these college boys in a frat house. Oh, yeah. And it was like, for the viewer, it seemed like a simple check-in. Like, just ask each other how you're doing. And the boys were so moved.

And it was like, they had never checked in with each other. It's like, what is going on with men was one of my thoughts? But it's also very, very, very moving. But my question is, like, what do you think is happening to men in our culture? I don't know exactly how to word it, but do you understand what I'm asking or is it too unclear? No, no, no, I'm with you. Why are they frozen and how can they thought? I think for me it's because most men gets mixed messages when it comes to math.

masculinity. So it's like they're told, and it's not just by women, it's, they're told by other men, they're told by society that we need you to be strong all the time. And we need you to like stand up and be the silent strong type. But then I also need you to be vulnerable and open. But then if you're vulnerable and open at a time when I don't want it, you're now sassy. And, like weird and so it's like a very where I think most women get the message your vulnerability except for in corporate America so I don't want to generalize because you know but in most settings like it's like your vulnerability is applauded it's like thank you for being nurturing thank you for being open with your feelings um where men they're told different things

consistently in the household um that it's like okay I'm I'm going to be vulnerable today, but then if you don't want the vulnerability, it's like, oh, you know, you're giving me too much. And it's like, so am I supposed to be that way or am I supposed to be this way? And I think for me, with the men on my show, I tell them there's no option. I don't want strong right now. I only want this. And I do it more of a direct command to them. And again, to create a parallel, I think because of my stature. I was going to say, your physicality has a huge part in that because if you were asking that they're like okay this looks like a strong man exactly I can you know if he's telling me I can do this you know like even with those boys around there

they didn't cry the entire show they didn't have any emotion and it was supposed to just be a check-in and I was like they my team we were the show actually only wanted to do two and I was like no let's bring the whole of them and they were like what and I was like I did group sessions all the time like I can handle up to 12

and they were like what and I was like trust me. And when I got and we sat down, I said to them, so you're going to open up today because I'm going to open up. And opening up is so special and so amazing. And I did it in such a affirming, strong way, using my physicality, that they're now like, okay, he's saying that this is what we have to do. This is the assignment. This is, we don't get to be closed off. And so now I've said that directly and now I go into, now I'm ready to listen. So tell me, Have you all checked in? What are you feeling?

And now they've already gotten the command that vulnerability is the only option combined with me listening. And then we get a group of young men bawling their eyes out of the damn. The truth is, you know, that's beautiful, by the way. And I really, like, I really admire. No one's ever asked me these little secrets and tools, but sorry.

Well, no, no, but I mean, it's, I think probably all three of us are admiring your, um, the through lines of your life so it's it's really cool to hear but i'm also just thinking that and i've thought about this kind of throughout my whole life but it's really relevant in this moment you know the truth is with men who like sit and drink at bars and you know it's a shortcut to to feeling something and i feel like agree men men are actually desperate to hug each other hold each other tell you i like i love you man i love you like that like that's that's that's actually real you know it's it's so it was so clear to me growing up that the the that the that my

male friends my boyfriends are the the men I'd be growing up alongside they just wanted to get wasted so they could be vulnerable actually yep I mean it really is that agreed agreed because the liquor gave them permission and to hide it's gave them something to hide behind yeah and and and And that's what I know all the time. Like, a lot of these addictions that I see come from the fact that people want to express feelings and they can't. And so they can't express what happened in their past. They can't express what they're feeling now and they can't express what they're hoping for in the future. Like you said, Penn, they want to just say, yo, bro, I love you.

And I remember in high school, I was the only one that my teammates, my teammates would say, yo, I love you because I would say it back to them. I would say to them all the time. And because, again, my stature, I would hug people all the time. And I would grab them, giving these big bear hugs. And I never had anyone fight against it because they would fall into my arms. Even today, men fall into my arms when I give them hugs because I'm big enough and I can hold on men. And I think that we just have to remember, like, just look at the messages we're giving any human being. But particularly in this conversation, look at the message we're giving men.

And if you want men to be their authentic self, just remember, like, you can't switch up on them. in a week if they if you don't like it now or like liking a video where a guy is now sassy just says to a boy on TikTok that I can't be sassy because now it's going to be a joke or you know like even that word sassy now that's come up on TikTok a lot is like derogatory because a straight man being vulnerable shouldn't be seen sassy and I've seen like the whole thing now we're like if they're doing a dance challenge it's like when your boyfriend's sassy and it's like, why is him enjoying a TikTok dance, sass? Why can it just be a human being dancing?

And I think we got to watch those messages we give. And until we do, we're going to see men always be in this sort of convoluted state of should I be vulnerable? Do I have to be strong? It's really helpful. It's really profound. I just wanted to know I was so affected by that. I mean, a huge fan of queer.

I watch every episode, but was really affected by that one. I don't know if Penn remembers I texted him. Because Penn and I had a production company together. And I was like, you need to watch this episode. And we need to find a way to create spaces like this for men to just like check in with each other. We haven't. Sign me up. I'm down to help.

Okay. Sign me up. Yeah. So let's talk about your talk show. First of all, congratulations. Your numbers are growing. You had your best week recently. We're so excited for you.

What, I mean, I think we have a sense of what inspired you to do it. You've been wanting to do it. It sounds like your whole life. How does it feel now that you're doing it? It feels freaking amazing. I mean, like, what was the moment that you finally thought, I'm going to just kind of directly do the thing as opposed to finding ways to do it on a, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm just going to house the talk show. Well, I wish I could say that I had a hand in it, but like, you know, it's when execs make their choice. And so we just someone, I wrote in, I wrote a memoir and I wrote in the book how much I love helping people. and it was always my dream that maybe I could have a daytime talk for one day. Yeah. And the head of NBC, president of NBC, saw, got my book and read it and called me in and was like, yeah, let's give you a shot. We can do this. Wow. Yeah, we can do this.

And so I wish I was like, you know, there was a plan and I executed like other things. It just kind of, it kind of like came because I put it in the universe. Like I wasn't afraid to talk about what I wanted. And that's something I tell people all the time as well, like talk about what you want. Like, people will try to make you feel like you're arrogant or, like, you're being braggadocious. Like, blame it out loud. Like, if you want that car, say over and over again, I want that car. I want this life.

I want this. Because the more you keep in your head, people who could help you than finding that. Like, if you want a particular type of person, say it because there could be someone who could hear it and be like, that is my friend. Let me connect you to. And now you're married, you know? Yeah. And so me saying it out loud, they bound it. And they were like, we'll test you.

So they tested me like on Mori. They tested me on Ellen. And they realized I work better with real people, not celebrities. And they were like, we'll give you a conflict daytime show because that's what they call it, conflict television, where it's real people. And I hated that. And I told him season one, I was like, my show's not going to be conflict. There can be real emotions where people talk about what they're really going. going through, but I'm not going to have people fighting just a fight.

And I said there's going to be a lot of holding hands. It's going to be a lot of tears. And they're like, well, there's really not a lot of tears in daytime conflict. And I was like, not yet. And it's resonating. It's going great. And it keeps getting bigger and bigger. And I'm just really, really just proud of it.

I mean, I'm, like, extremely proud of it. This has been so lovely. We have a final question. And I'll let you ask it. Yeah. If you could go back to your 12-year-old self, what would you say? What would you do? I'd say, keep being nosy.

Actually, you know what I would say to him? I'm going to say this. And now I'm being a little cliche. I would say to him, keep talking and keep growing, which is what I am. Because, I mean, like, I would literally go back to him and tell him not, don't stop running your mouth. I like, keep running your mouth. I'd probably tell him to run his mouth more. I would tell him to run his mouth more because when I run my mouth is when I have the best connections and best moments.

I think everyone should start running their mouth more. Like, you know. And don't be afraid to keep growing. Like my saying that I have, my quote, is never be afraid of growing slowly, only of standing still. And I say that to myself all the time. So I'm constantly like, as long as I'm not standing still. as long as I'm doing one step to be a little bit better

than life's okay and so I'd go back to him and say just keep on keep running your mouth yeah I'd probably also tell him to tell I can't say this guy's name because I know him

but I would probably tell him to tell my teammate on varsity that I was in love with him because I still at this day think he's a homo and so because he's 43 and doesn't have a wife or kids and I'm like

maybe we could have been in love right now. So I would tell him also to tell him, hey, you know, you're hot. All the great tips. This is so enjoyable, really. Thank you. So many good stories from you. Oh, my gosh. You can watch Karamo Brown on eight seasons of Queer Eye on Netflix.

You can watch his talk show, Karamo, on the CW, and you can keep up with him online at Karamo. We are so excited that you can now listen to Pod Crush to ad-free. on Amazon Music. In fact, you can listen to any episode of Pod Crush, ad free right now on Amazon Music with an Amazon Prime membership. And it's like nice, it feels like I'm commanding a room

or a space of some kind, maybe like a hall. imagine that and sophia never just sitting there like little children from a wizard school just like looking up no-eyed what house am i what is he going to say now what is happening right now good things this is how we bring them in okay this is why i introduce and close and you do everything else in between