Podcrushed - Karen Gillan

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Today’s guest is the wildly talented Karen Gillan, the actor you know from major franchises like Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers: Endgame, and Jumanji, as well as her breakout role as Amy Pond on Doctor Who. Karen talks about her early days growing up in Inverness, Scotland, and how her relentless teenage ambition landed her an agent (spoiler alert: she cold-called every casting director and agent in Scotland until one of them agreed to represent her).   Karen’s new movie, The Life of Chuck, is in theatres everywhere now!   And preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Nava-Kavelin/9781668077993    Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here: Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok  X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pennbadgley/  https://www.instagram.com/scribbledbysophie/ https://www.instagram.com/nnnava/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@iampennbadgley  https://www.tiktok.com/@scribbledbysophie  https://www.tiktok.com/@nkavelinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I'll start by saying when you said we start at 12. I thought I was being reprimanded for being 12 minutes late. Well, 12. I truly brought me back to being 12 years old. I was like, whoa, oh, no.

Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties writing Legolas and Aragorn fanfic. Oh, steamy. Welcome to Podcrush.

I am your host, Ben Badgley, joined by my co-host. Sophie Ansari, Navakalen. And if you're watching, yes, I am wearing Podcrushed merch that is no longer available. You can't even eBay it. Yeah. Wow. Actually, maybe you could. You'll probably find some...

I want to get rid of this. One's at Goodwill, but, you know, you'll have to search around. Today, our guest is from Scotland. And it got me thinking all about my connections to Scotland. And I, there's this story my mom always tells because she went to university there in Glasgow. And she's from, she was born and raised in London, like a very posh accent. And she gets on the bus her first day in Glasgow. And she says, one to the university, please.

And he goes, I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? I'm so sorry. One more time. He goes, what are you, a foreigner? And she says, no, I'm from England. He goes, that's what I mean. I like that a lot.

So now that I were actually in Scotland, like a last year, and they, so like, you know, I got to sort of give the joke back, they really wanted to hear us, say, space ghettos, specifically from, do you remember this? Yes, I did. I did. I remember until you brought it out. Yeah. Yeah, so this is, it's specific to an American accent.

They wanted to ask an American, okay, say space ghettos. And the reason is because that's how a really, really thick, Glasuanian accent sounds when they say Spice Girls. Oh, yeah. Space Gettos. Space Gettos. Space Gettos. Yeah, that's funny.

In case anybody listening wasn't sure, that is indeed funny. It's a good time. It's a very good time. It's fun to laugh about Scottish and American accents together. Yeah. I have Scottish Ancestrian accents. in case you were wondering. Yeah.

I do indeed. I will just say that in this episode, it was sort of like people were, I'm not going to say which people, you'll find out, were one-upping each other and like who had more connections to Scotland. And I also have a connection to Scotland,

but I didn't share it because I felt like it would be way too much if I piled on. But my maternal grandmother is a Hamilton. Oh, shut out. No, it's true. Nava, I was going to ask you, because you were so silent,

I was going to say, okay, Nava, now it's your turn. It's true. My maternal grandma is a Hamilton. my dad's name is Thomas Cavillan Hamilton and we had a Hamilton Manor and you can Google it. It was like a little castle. Oh my goodness. And now I live in a tiny

apartment in L.A., so and that is social progress. That is evolution right there. That's what they would have wanted. Yeah, that's like a wolf thing turned into Chihuahua. Go look up the Hamilton Manor that belonged to someone in my family at some point. This also reminds me, we'll get to the guest in just a second,

but this reminds me of that Paul Meskell or Paul Muscal is that how do you say the last? Paul Meskell, S&L skit where two American tourists walk into an Irish pub and they start mentioning their Irish. They're like, well, you know, technically I'm Irish. Yeah, exactly. The entire bar is like, what? Well, actually, first he turns around very seriously. He's like, what did you say?

No, actually, I'm Irish. I have Irish ancestry. And the whole bar stops. It's just, oh, it's so good. It's so, so, so good. And that's guys what we have been doing. Yeah, same energy. the American tourists in an Irish pub.

So let's get to our Scottish guest. Today we have the wildly talented, truly, truly multifaceted, the chameleonic. I don't even know if that's a word, but I'm crafting it for Karen Gillen. The actor you might know, probably know, from major franchises like Guardians of the Galaxy. If you've not heard of that,

maybe you've heard of Avengers Endgame. If you've not heard of that, possibly Jumanji. I don't know. If you've not heard of that, possibly Doctor Who? If you've not heard of any of those, you're not listening to this podcast. There's no way that that's happening. So you know who Karen Gillen is. She's brilliant.

She's also made her mark behind the camera, having written and directed her debut feature, The Party's Just Beginning, which is a darkly funny and deeply moving film set in her hometown of, okay, I'm actually going to struggle to say this. You say it well, Sophie. Inverness. Inverness.

Okay, it's not that bad. Of Inverness, Scotland. Her latest project is a film called The Life of Chuck, which is a very intense drama with some genre aspects. She's starring alongside some major heavy hitters like Tom Hiddleston, Chuitell Edgifor, Jacob Tremblay, and Mark Hamill. So you know the drill, we got a quick ad break, and we'll be right back, stick around.

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bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to pulling the thread from Lemonada Media wherever you get your podcasts. So we start at 12 here. That's the idea. I don't know if anybody prepped you for that. But surprise. Guess what? We're going to start. We're going to We're going to start in adolescence, you know, which is a time that it feels like you are, dare I say, quite connected to. It seems, it seems that way. So at 12, what was the way you were seeing the world? What was day-to-day life like for Karen? I'll start by saying when you said we start at 12.

I thought I was being reprimanded for being 12 minutes late. Andrew, you brought me back to being 12 years old. I was like, whoa, oh, my God, can you imagine? Oh, wow, I'm sorry for that, but it's funny. I'm just going to say on record that I'm really upset, okay? I'm going to say it emphatically. I want people to see. Oh, my gosh.

But in the time that I know that I'm not getting a row, thank God. And what was I like at 12? And how was my world at 12? I mean, oh, so I, like, you know, when people say that they were a nerd in school and you, like, kind of maybe don't fully believe them, like, I was, it was really bad. It was really bad. Like, I had really bad social anxiety. I couldn't look people in the eye. That was really difficult for me and I was hyper aware of it. I couldn't talk to people easily other than the people that I was comfortable around, which were like two people. And so I think at 12, I just, started high school in Scotland and I was thinking that this will be a new era for me but it wasn't

it was even more terrifying and so I think generally my worldview was like just survive this and figure out how to get through this but yeah I was walking around the school with like you know arms folded hunched over I'm really tall so I was trying to like

take up the least amount of space possible were you I think we've read that at 13, at least, you were making a lot of homemade horror films and stuff like this. Was this, had those seeds already been planted? Were you, I mean, when you started high school in Scotland, were you in love with that? Was that your obsession? Or was a little bit in the future?

Oh, I was well going by then. So when I was in primary school, before high school, I was really nervous around people, but was able to perform in front of people in the school. And so that became like the only channel where I could kind of have license to be confident in commanding or something. So yeah, I was I was already sort of creating characters and performing them in front of the kids, which was social suicide. I don't know what I was doing or why I was doing that. But I just felt like it was necessary. And then I graduated to a video camera.

and I was like, okay, well, now I can make my own horror movies, like the ones that I watch. And so very inspired by Scream, and I know what you did last summer, all of those, like, teen process of elimination horror films. And so I would film them around my house, write and direct them. And, yeah, I loved it. I even started a Scream shop in school where I drew merchandise. I remember drawing Sarah Michelle Geller on a pool of blood. and I sold that and made some money

Wow Yeah it coincided with a scream musical that I had written in primary school And some people were in that And so yeah By the time I got to high school I was well on my way to all of that You wrote a scream musical in primary school And the school let you perform it

Or it was like an individual thing There was two performances of that actually Amazing I don't know You did like Like, was it in the same day? Yeah, I think it wasn't the same day. I remember the second one not being anywhere near as good

and sort of learning a lesson from that about being fresh. Karen, I'm curious, you said that it was like social suicide, but you were performing these things? And I'm curious, were you performing them at school talent shows? Or were you, like, carving out your own spaces that no one was asking for for these performances? There was no school talent show in my primary school. So it was, I guess I must have just,

asked for the time and asked for everyone to sit down and watch that. Unlike me, if you know what I mean, like, you know, to be so nervous, but then to also be like, I deserve to have everyone sit down and watch what I have created is a contradiction that I think I still possess. Where did that come from at home? I mean, it sounds like you've spoken about your father in a way where you say that you get your inventiveness and silliness from him. I mean, was he really egging you on there?

Or was it, like, did you share this performance and horror thing? Or is that a little bit distinct? He definitely egged me on in a general sense. But he wasn't really involved in the details of what I was creating. He was actually so good at instilling a sort of self-belief in me and teaching me what it is to be driven. in life. And so, like, he would explain it to me in all these different ways. And I think that I almost like learned drive, which is weird. But then I applied it to these things that

he wasn't really a part of. And so I was just doing this on my own. I was given a karaoke machine first. And so I was like, oh my God, I can record. This is actually relevant to this. I could record my own voice and then listen to it back. And I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever experienced and then and then the visuals came later when I got the video camera but he was very supportive but not really and he was

in one of the horror films but that's about it was he the monster no I was the killer oh yeah and he was my victim per guy I love this Karen I'm having this picture of you like obsessed with horror really shy at school

but also like really bold when it comes to this era of your life, which is going to be like your future. So it seems like you, whether or not you knew consciously, subconsciously, you knew early on. But I've also heard that your most cherished childhood possession is a spice girl's scrapbook. So I'm trying to kind of get this like full picture of you. So I'm curious, which spice girl were you the most into? And have you met any of them? Oh, no, I haven't met any of them. And if I did, I mean, actually, I don't want to because I think I will revert back the version of myself. I just described where I can't either I or talk.

But one guest, which one was my favorite? Jerry. Of course. You know, she's actually the only spice girl we've ever had on the show. You had her on the show? Yeah, we did. She sat right where you're sitting now. Oh, my God.

It's an old and in high school that I'm in summer. Karen, I love Scotland. I have my sister lives in Edinburgh. Yeah, I know. She loves it more than you do. Definitely. You were coming on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

With this a competition and I will win. No, I actually have a lot of connections to it. Like my sister lives in Edinburgh, my cousins from the Isle of Lewis. My mom went to the university in Glasgow. So, yeah, I know it well. But when I was around 20, I went to the Isle of Lewis for my cousin's wedding. And I have never felt like simply by looking out of the window. while I was driving, I felt like, oh my gosh, I'm in a state of prayer.

I've never felt that before outside of like actively saying a prayer. And it made me wonder, like, I don't know, I felt like especially connected to like the divine there. And I, as I was thinking about that today, I was like, I wonder just, it might be not connected at all. Maybe that has nothing to do with you. But what was your relationship to the divine growing up or to spirituality? Did you have any?

What was that like at home? Yeah, I actually grew up going to a religious school, but neither of my parents were religious. And so I didn't kind of practice anything, but for me, I've always believed in a higher power, 100%. I mean, I think even scientists would agree with that, you know. Depends on which one you talk to. Oh, really? I think. I mean, you know, it's their beliefs.

just want to anyway, you know. But yeah, so I believe in something. I don't know what, but definitely in Scotland I can see why you felt that way. I mean, the landscape is so vast and you do feel small and there's

there's sort of nothingness for miles a lot of the time when you're driving around that it does kind of force you to sit in silence with your own thoughts sometimes. So yeah, I can see why you had that experience. I don't know. My relationship to all of that stuff is something I'm still figuring out, I think.

Let us know when you come to an answer. Well, I'll have you back on. The one time I've flown into Scotland, and I do have a great, great, great-grandfather who's buried there with his family in Edinburgh. He was a significant Scottish missionary, like, back in the 1800s. Wow. There's a bust of him somewhere. I was trying to find it.

I know where it is. I can't remember now. I think it's at the University of Edinburgh or something. Okay. So you've got some Scottish in you? I do, I do, apparently. Quite a lot. And then my wife's name is Kirk.

Like her last name is Kirk. Oh, okay. And that's like Church of Scotland, you know. Yeah, wow. That's cool. So I went there once recently, and I was actually very moved by it. So when you came to America, how old were you? You were young, right?

I was actually 24 when I came to America. America. And that was to come over and do a real horror film for a different director. And it was in Alabama. So that was my first sort of extended experience of America. Went there. I was like, oh, my God, we're in the deep south. That was quite exciting. And then we shot this film. And then everyone had come from Los Angeles. And it was like, oh, I could just follow all these people back to L.A. and then just stay there and not go home. So that's what I did. Moved into a horrible, little apartment that got robbed and tried to figure it out from there. For some reason, I assumed you were younger because I read that your parents

moves there to be close to you. Is that right? In more, like in your adult life. Sadly, that was when I was late, right. Yeah, but there's actually even sweeter. You know, that actually really changes the picture. So forgive me, I was like jumping ahead. Because we do, we do have, before we get out of adolescence, you're probably like,

please let us out of adolescence, please. Here to talk about a movie. Yeah, this man who reprimanded me like a child at the beginning of the interview, please move on. I keep thinking about that. Honestly, I keep coming back to what must have been going on for Karen when we started the recording and we're like, just so you know, we start at 12, pause. I don't know if anyone prepped you for that.

Like, it's so aggressive. Oh, it is so bad. It's the worst way to start. We're an immersive experience. Penn is alluding to some classic questions that we asked. And I did hear you say on another podcast that you, whenever you're asked the question, like who is your first celebrity crush, you don't really have an answer to that. And so you made one up because you wanted to have an answer for people.

Who did I say? Don Draper, that was so many funny things about the whole thing. But coming up with an answer just to be, you know, one of the group is so funny to me. And I was wondering what that was like for you in middle school. What was your, did you have crushes or did you feel like you had to make one up to fit in? Yeah, I did have to make them up to fit in then as well. This has been a lifelong issue is that I don't understand celebrity crushes because I'm like, that's never going to happen. Like, it's really, other for you, it could have.

Oh, yeah, true. Maybe eventually. So I've never, I've never understood. It's like, what's the word? Parasocial, is that right? Like, you know, one-sided. So, like, I remember all the girls being like, which one of, you know, boy's own, a British boy band,

do you fancy? And I was like, I like the spice girls, but if I have to pick one. And then I just, like, chose one at random. What about real crushes in, like people in your school? Yeah, I had, you know, crushes on people that, okay, if it was probably never going to happen either. But at least it was a little more realistic.

Yeah, I had loads of crushes. I had loads of quiet secret crushes that I wouldn't even tell my best friends about because the fear of humiliation and embarrassment was so at the forefront of my mind that I was like, I'm not going to set myself up for even, you know, one person, like word getting out about this. But yeah, I remember my first crush was on a guy called Michael. He had really short blonde hair.

I don't really like blonde hair on guys anymore, so that that's random. And I remember being like, I've never felt this way about a guy before in my life. Wow, this is incredible. And then I remember him coming up to talk to me and my best friend

and I was like, oh my God, this is it. And he basically started making jokes about being my best friend's boyfriend. And I was like, he's flirting with her. He loves her. Oh, and that's devastating for me. We have one more classic question, and then we will get into your truly epic career.

Oh, yay. Which is, do you have a particularly, like, crindy or awkward or embarrassing memory of something that happened to you when you're around 12, 13, 14? Where do I start? I'm getting flashbacks right now. I'm like, which one do I choose from? Like, just to paint the picture,

I remember performing in the school talent show and being like, like giving the performance of my life in a couple of songs from Cabaret. And then I remember like my RE teacher being like, why do you walk around school the way that you walk around when you can do that? He was like, you need to be more animated and walk around with a straight back.

And I was like, are you going to say that in front of the whole class? And then I remember another teacher, when I was 16, I left school and went to college. And I remember another teacher there being like, you need to be more charming. I was like, how exactly? Yeah, how do you do that? And then I remember being like, oh, I'll just be more like a bubbly personality. And so I remember like overshooting with that because I was still nervoushooting.

and you overshoot sometimes when you're having to overcome the nervousness of something. And then I remember being like, that's too far, dial it back a little bit. And then I think I landed somewhere where my natural personality is and it was just that personality was too scared to show itself through social anxiety. So I think I am my authentic self now. I think. Who knows for sure? But anyway, so my best friend in high school had a cool sister, and she was popular and really pretty and knew how to talk to boys.

And she came to school and she was like, I'm going to be a hair model. And I was like, what do you mean you're going to be hair model? Like a performance, you're going to perform? I need to perform. And then I got wind that all of the popular girls were doing this hair modeling thing for a salon in town. And I was like, I need to do this. And so I said to my best friend, you need to go through your sister stuff. and get the information of the salon

so we can call them and do the hair modeling too. And so she did. And it was at a salon called the hair directory. And I was like, we're going to call them. So we ring them and they're like, yeah, we're looking for models. Come down. And so me and my friend were not hair models and not, you know, confident enough to do that.

Go on in there. And then they're like, okay, we really don't fit in with the other girls. And then they're like, right, so there's a dance routine involved. so we'll teach you the choreography and see how you go. Oh, it was awful. I remember dancing to Vogue and being like unable to do it completely. And then she sat me down and she was like, do you think you're going to be able to get this in time for the show?

And I was like, no, probably not, no. And then she was like, me neither. But what we can do is send you over to the department store in town where they're looking for models to do some clothes stuff. And she was like, they're desperate for models. could do that. And then I said to my friend, we're going. We're going to the department store.

And she was like, no, I'm not doing this anymore. Like, stop dragging me into this. So then I like went on my own. And it was all adults. And they were like, okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to have like this really like good looking guy come out. He's going to sort of do a few poses. And then what you're going to do one by one is all the women are going to come out and

kind of do like a little flirty move in front of him, which was, doesn't sound like much. But to me, this was like my living nightmare. I'd never, you know, I was able to talk to guys, like, couldn't look them in the eye. I had to, like, go out in front of people and be seductive. I didn't think of anything worse. And I remember just, like, walking out and then just, like, touching him on the chest and then walking away. And it got a reaction from everyone that was like, oh, and it was, oh, horror. It was horrific.

How many people do you think were watching that? Well, that was the rehearsal. Oh, okay. so that was just me and the other model and then they did let me stay in the show because I think I fit it into one of the outfits and so then I mean there was probably about a hundred people in the audience when I did it for real wow that's amazing Karen I love that story I was also thinking about what you said about sort of like your authentic self whether or not it's coming through your social anxiety and we recently spoke with Kevin Smith the director

of dogma, Jay and Silent Bob. And he said something that I've been thinking about. I can't stop thinking about it. He was saying how he tells everyone like, you're an incredible actor. You're just as good of an actor as Denzel Washington because you're acting all the time. Everyone is performing. You're performing the version that you want whoever you're performing with to see you. And so since he said that, I'm like, am I performing to my dog? Am I performing to my dad? Like, is it true? Are we always prefer? And I like, I really can't stop thinking. I think it's true. I think to some degree you're always.

performing a little bit you're projecting in this scenario I'm bossy in this scenario I'm sweet in this scenario I'm really nurturing I don't know it's it's been interesting since he said it I can't I know I heard this interesting thing that was like if you really want to get a read on someone look at what they want you to know about them and I thought that was really insightful and yeah I think like there's a lot of presenting just opinioning on each situation that we're in and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing I think that's probably natural human behavior to survive in the world. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely inevitable.

Stick around. We'll be right back. All right, so let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean in the sense of vanity.

I mean in the sense of like you want your dad. day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste

delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C? And it tastes delicious, like, really. really, really good. Comes out in the packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. I think it tastes great.

I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health, and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. Do you want to try them out?

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Can you arc us from this, you know, I suppose this adolescent joy, this and whatever it is, all the many things that it was, into you realizing, wait, I'm going to really pursue this as something that I can keep doing forever and go to school for it, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and really start a career. So as I mentioned before, my dad taught me how to have drive and so I was able to apply that when I was a teenager and I don't have any connections to this industry whatsoever from a random part of Scotland. Is it weird to call it random? It's not random to me. But anyway, so I was in high school and about 14 when I decided, oh, I could go to an acting class

and learn how to do this and just get performing and I had really bad stage fright and so I was so nervous when I started and then gradually got over that. So that's another weird thing is like I developed stage fright at one point but then I went away. So then I was like, okay,

I remember being in my acting class and there was sort of like a star student and a teacher went over to them and was like, here's a book with everything you need to know about the industry. and I was like so driven that I in my peripheral vision I was like I'm getting to figure out what that book is and it was called contact and so I like ordered the book it comes to imbreness in Scotland and then I look at it and it's like a directory of all casting directors and agents so it's like oh actors have agents okay that's interesting so I'll just circle all the Scottish ones and then call them so I rang them and had some pictures taken and then one of them miraculously took me on And that's when I was 15. And so I had an agent and I was still in high school in Bredesse.

And so then he started sending me out for some auditions, but it was probably like two a year because it's not a huge industry where I'm from. And then in the meantime, I studied acting in Edinburgh for a while. And then I moved to London to study at drama school. And then about three months into drama school, that agent rang and it was like, I have an audition for a TV show. and then I got that job, but it was only eight days of filming, but I was like, I've made it, so I'm going to lead drama school.

I know. But also I will say that the drama school wouldn't let me do the job, so it was a choice that I had to make, and I was like, I'm definitely going to do the TV job. So I did that, and then I was working at a pub in London, pulling pints, like, okay, what am I going to do now? I was like I have to think of an idea so I rang the director of that television show and I was like she happened to know any agents in London who might be interested and he was in the room with someone who'd just been given his her own client list for the first time and so she was like I'll meet with her that was one of the top agencies in London so then I was able to get representation and go out for all the auditions and then I got jobs wow Karen that's amazing that sounds like drive and fate sort of like a perfect to come Yeah, I feel like you sort of just need to keep being driven until an opportunity like that comes along and you're sort of, you know, what we call that look.

Yeah. What does it like to finally be on camera for quote unquote real, you know, because that is a significant threshold? I remember that day, actually. I didn't know anything about camera acting. I'd only done theater stuff. So I just kept being like, it's smaller, it's smaller. I just have to be small. That was the word that I'd latched on to. And then I remember being so nervous. I remember feeling like, I can't do this, which I feel a lot in life and then just have to force my way through it anyway.

And then I remember doing the first take and being like, ah, I can't do this. This isn't that bad. But I didn't understand anything that was happening. I didn't know what any of the vocabulary was. Like it was just being thrown in at the deep end and confusing. and scary, but really fascinating. I was curious, when you told us about at 15, calling the agents, getting an agent, being

still in high school in Inverness, I'm so curious what your parents' feelings were about that. Were they encouraging you or were they kind of like just letting you do your own thing? I don't remember what their thoughts were. So I feel like they were letting me do my own thing, but they were always encouraging and would never be like don't do something you know like they i remember my dad being like don't have a plan B which is quite different to a lot of advice from parents um he was like if you have a plan B then you're likely to fall back on your plan B so if you just don't have one um and then you you know mentally are like I have to do this he's just very like in tune with with people and and human behavior um to such

a degree that's like whoa and so a lot of his advice was sort of around that i remember him being we were watching who wants to be a millionaire and the first a person got to a million and he was like okay so um that woman was a middle class woman or upper class um and so therefore wasn't as worried about losing the money as she was answering the questions and she was able to to take a few risks and things because it wasn't going to be catastrophic to lose that money. And so you need to live in that state of mind when you go through life and take risks. So that's like always stuck with me. Sounds like an incredible father.

Yeah. What I like about that way of looking at drive is that I think it can be learned. You know, it's like not some magical thing that you're just born with. I think it can be taught to some degree. And also what I like about it is that someone who, you know, is not, who had like so many setbacks in terms of confidence can still do it. And I think that I hope that people maybe, you know, if they feel as scared as I did, that they could get some sort of hope from that.

Actually, it makes me think that that's healthy drive, Whereas the sort of drive that somebody might, quote, unquote, be born with, I think usually it's probably more impressed upon them in an unhealthy way at a very young age. And so it's a little bit more of like a, if someone doesn't know why they're driven and haven't chosen it, I think that's usually not as healthy as what you're describing. Yeah, yeah, I definitely think a lot of drive can come from, you know, needing to fill a void or, you know, something bad happening and trying to run away from that. I heard something like, I'm going to butcher this, but like, you know,

You know, you could put some cheese in front of a mouse and it would run towards the cheese. But if you put like a cat behind it, it's going to run way faster than the mice that are running towards the cheese because it's also propelled by fear. And so I think a lot of drive can be that as well. And I'm sure I've got a little bit of that. So you're saying you're the slower, happier mouse of the two. I don't know, though. I don't know. There's also other stuff mixed in there.

Like, I think that because I was just bottom of the hierarchy big time in school, there was like a little bit of a quest for, not like status where I want to be like so powerful or anything, but like to just get me up to normal. There was like a little bit of a like, I'd like to protect myself from scary, the scariness of being at the bottom of a hierarchy by raising myself up somehow and, oh, I could do it through, you know, a career performing. there's like a bit of that as well. Yeah. Well, you certainly accomplished. I mean, I don't know exactly what your goals were, but I would imagine you accomplished and exceeded them. You've been

part of so many incredible projects. I think, you know, it's remarkable. It seems like you've worked on really like major tent poles, the most successful franchise of all time. You also do like kind of quiet indie things behind the camera. But I want to start with Doctor Who because I feel like is that, is it safe to say that's like your first big like splash? So can you share? I heard you say, I don't know how old the interview was, I don't know if this still stands, but I heard you say that it was, that that's still,

you consider that one of like your favorite performances of your career, favorite experiences. And so I would love to hear just a behind the scenes memory from Doctor Who, from that experience. It was definitely one of my favorite experiences. It was not one of my favorite performances from me. I was learning on the job, definitely. I look back on that and I'm like, whoa, you didn't know how to do this.

And you're so lucky that you got to repeatedly on a show. but you know there's no better way to learn than to do the thing um but yeah i had the best time ever like i i was 21 years old i just got in this job which was i mean it's crazy in the UK it's kind of like the equivalent of winning one of those like x-factor like talent shows or something where you know everyone's like the next one going to be um and it was just so cool and i acted with two of my best friends who were still two of my best friends and just had an amazing time running away from monsters for a living. It was really cool. I loved it.

In that sense, it sounds like a realization of a childhood dream a bit. The monster part. The running away from it. Well, you know, I mean, just the, like, I mean, Doctor Who is definitely not horror, but it shares something of that.

Yeah. What would you call it? Like the the sci, I don't know. You know, there's obviously a connection there. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. that genre thing. Yeah, I mean, there was definitely episodes where I was running away from things down a corridor

and that could have been right out of a horror film and I was like, I know how to do this. I've seen Sarah Michelle Geller do this. I've drawn Sarah Michelle Geller do this. I'm ready. And then was Doctor Who kind of instrumental

in you getting Nebula in getting that role? I think it was actually, funnily enough, because I moved to America after Doctor Who did the horror film and then got an audition for Guardians of the Galaxy. And so I did the audition and then I, and this was back in London. I was back home. And so they were looking, they were scouring everywhere. And so I did it in London and my audition did not make

the cut. So the casting director did not send it to the director because they were going in a different direction and the director was like oh i'm not sure about these who else auditioned and he's like scrolling through everyone and then spots me and he's like that's the girl from dr who i'll watch that one and then he was like oh yeah okay that's more in the vein of what i was imagining um so that was a little bit of a miracle there too and but he even saw that yeah wow okay and then sorry i promise i'll let my co-host jump in just one more question about nebula you famously had to shave your head and sit through like five hours of makeup but i am curious about the shaving your head because you're like a young woman i feel like for most women hair is such a vital part of yourself image so i'm

just curious after you wrapped what was that transition period like as you were growing it out did it affect yourself image like what was that like for you yeah i i struggled with that there was something so liberating about getting rid of all my hair for two weeks and then i was like i'm really tall And so, you know, from the back, people would be like, excuse me, sir. Women, I'm a woman. But it was pretty funny. But, like, I have an interesting relationship with my hair. You know, it's ginger.

And I grew up with really bright hair and hated having that in school. I was like, you know, anything that makes you different, you don't want. And I was like almost to the point where I thought something, not something was wrong with me, but it was like the equivalent of that in my mind. And then I started to sort of get a lot of. I don't know, validation for it later. Yeah. And then, you know, like start working as an actress.

And it's like, oh, sure, she's a bit different. She's got red hair. So let's cast her. And so I was like, oh, it's good having red hair, I guess. Cool. And then I had to get rid of it all. So I was like, oh, my defining feature in a way was gone. And I was like, okay.

But the interesting thing is Marvel made me a wig of my own hair. and like each strand was sewn into the wig for me so I could wear it and I wore it a lot actually which shows that I maybe wasn't very confident without it no I mean that makes sense that's so cool yeah I still have that yeah just in case you want to shave your head again exactly no please no I do I want to ask a few more things about Nebula as well I think your performance there is is pretty masterful I mean the way that you in order to to make anger funny, but for it to also be a believable, you know, dominant character trait

is a really tough balance to just manage and you do it masterfully. And I just think it's like, yeah, I just wanted to say that. There's no question in there. But I really, really, really, really love that. And I guess I'm curious, like, it must be, I mean, you've played this character for, probably it ended up being close to 10 years, is that right? Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's a decade. It's a decade of your life.

Like, I know what it's like to play a character for about that long and to have a define an era. And I'm just curious, when you look back, you know, how did it start for you? What did you, what were you, you know, how did you approach role in the beginning? And how did that, how did your relationship to this character evolve over time? Yeah, so I got the job in a Scottish accent in the screen test.

and so she was very nearly Scottish and then I think that Marvel were like who is this girl that you've cast and like she needs to be American what is she saying yeah like I can understand her

so James Gunn was like let's make her American and so that's all I had to go on it and so I'm like doing the whole thing of like oh my god it's my first big Hollywood film this is terrifying I need to like do all the work in the world. So I'm working with voice coaches and movement coaches and everything. Come up with this whole thing based on her being like a little bit of a robot and all that.

And then I get on set for the first time and James is basically like drop it all and just player like Marilyn Monroe and Clint Eastwood at the same time. And so I was like, okay. And that changed to everything. It changed my voice. That's why it's sort of this more under the sort of breadth. f-y voice thing and that then informed a much more like slinky way of moving as opposed to anything robotic and it was just fascinating to me that I could have spent weeks doing that and then he changed it all with one sentence and I was like that might be the best bit of directing I've ever

received it like create the whole character in an instant which was really cool yeah that is what it is and again you do it so well like um I actually you know I'm not like a huge Marvel person. I'm not like super into the movies and hadn't seen him a bunch of times. So watching it this time, I was like, this is a really fascinating character. You know what I mean? I was like, I was like really, really interested. And I had read that that, that he'd give you that note. And I think it is so spot on. And you do it again. Like, I just don't think that's easy. To do it, to do it for as long as you did it. I mean, I don't know that people can appreciate. It's a, it's a long time to play the straight person. You know, like the, as we say,

straight man like to just and but to bring levity into it it's just it's so good yeah no it was i feel so fortunate that i got to explore the character over the course of so many films and the avengers films really kind of got into her backstory with her father and all of that and that was so fun for me but then in the last guardians film was the first time that i think we really were able to explore the more humorous side of her it's like she sort of went through all of that drama uh she had big cathartic experiences and then finally the levity was able to come in and honestly we were improvising so much on that film and it was just so fun to like find that side of the character that I never would have thought she would end up where she did and we'll be right back

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Find it wherever you get your podcast and start listening today. I was just like marveling at how you were like you were just talking about Dr. We're going to cut that so we're going to do that. No, but like you're talking about Doctor Who which is such a sensation in the UK and then you come to the US and you've done several other projects but then you're part of this huge franchise in the US like are there any projects? that you're thinking like, oh, I would love to do that. I haven't been able to do that yet.

And I would love to get a chance to act in that type of role or that type of project. Oh, yeah, so many. I mean, I think I need to get back into my roots in terms of the filmmaking stuff. I think it's time for me to return to that with a real camera this time. So I'll definitely be doing more of that, making some horror films. various other things. I'm like writing a TV show right now. I'm kind of free writing it,

so we'll see if it turns out any good. And yeah, there's so, and I'd love to do a rom-com. I'm just going to put that out into the universe. A cheeky rom-com. That you are in a new movie, The Life of Chuck,

and it is a little bit of a reunion. I think it's interesting that it's you and Tom Hiddleston because your characters kind of have like a similar origin story in the Marvel world. I may be coincidence, but we have, actually weren't able to get screeners of it and the trailer doesn't give it all the way so maybe you can it does seem like fascinating and really uplifting um but i'm curious if you can tell us a little bit

what it's about whatever you're i think this will be out by the time the movie is out so if that's helpful yeah yeah i always have such a hard time explaining this film because it's sort of like nothing i've ever seen before it's so unique um in its structure and story but essentially it's uh an exploration into a man's mind as he's sort of dealing with the end of his life. But it's told in reverse and there's like a lot of interesting kind of imaginary moments in there. And it's just so beautiful and kind of makes you examine your own purpose and existence and how you're choosing to live your life. Yeah, it's a really beautiful movie that I don't know how to articulate it. Yeah. Well, neither are we, so.

Great. This is a bit of a spoiler warning, so skip ahead if you're going to see Life of Check and you haven't seen it yet. Well, could you tell us a little bit about Felicia? Oh, yeah. So my character is called Felicia, and she is a nurse who is dealing with the end of the world. And so what's happening, because it's the end of the world, is that a lot of people are committing suicide. And so she is in a hospital desperately trying to save all of these people. people and it's just the situation is getting worse and worse and more out of control and then it gets to the point where everyone has

to sort of surrender to what's inevitable and so she reconnected with her ex-husband and has a beautiful conversation with him and then they experience the end of everything together. So does it is like a, is it a

it's not a horror, although it is Stephen King as I understand it, right? It's not horror at all much. But it is, but so I guess it's, it sounds like it's a drama with a bit of genre in there? Yeah, I would say so. It's a beautiful drama with

sci-fi is the wrong word. How do you describe this film? I could have read how to describe this film and I didn't because I'm like, I like to be natural. And now I don't know who it is. Yeah, it definitely appears that way. Let's see.

But again, it is a Stephen King adaptation. Is that right? It is Stephen King. and it's Mike Flan again both known for their horror but this is not horror it is something else it's a maybe more in the sort of

stand by me side of Stephen King Shawshan that's right that's right I always forget that that's him as well yeah he's written a lot my goodness

did you as a horror fan I mean were you a Stephen King person I was a Stephen King movie person so I love The Shining I am really bad at reading books that aren't about psychology. That's the only thing

I can actually get through. And my husband is like a massive reader and he's like, you need to read more books and I'm like, I can't. I just can't do it. So you only like books about psychology. That's interesting because to me that connects to horror. Horror is a genre that is very psychological and even spiritual in the way that it's like,

it's the only genre that is constantly asking questions about human nature, the human mind, and what happens after death? That's literally like, that's every horror film, Every horror film is doing that in some way, if not, you know, in a major way. Do you have a favorite book about psychology? Oh, there was one I just read and I don't remember the name of it, but it's basically how to turn your anxiety into a positive thing.

You already know how to do that. You don't need to read that. You can write that book, Karen. You can write it. I would imagine that you've done that more than the author has. That's what I'm just going to pitch to you. I'll take that. But you know what?

It's good to just top up and read stuff for the book. You know, remind yourself like, okay. Because, you know, I think that we're constantly having to do scary things in this industry. It's like not natural. We have to stand up in front of people and do terrifying things. And so I'm like, you know, oh, I've conquered it. Oh, no. I'm really scared again.

And then I've conquered it again. And it's just never ending. You direct, right? Yes. And you're saying you want to get back to, when you were talking about getting back to your filmmaking roots, is that what you meant, that you meant that you wanted? want to be, you're going to, you're going to be directing and you're going to be directing some horror films or a horror film?

Yes, yes, all of that, definitely. I have one in mind, actually, but I can't really say anything now, but... Sure, sure, yeah. Yeah, it's something... Actually, there's a couple, and I think they're going to be really cool. Yeah, exciting. That's awesome. I'll keep an eye out.

Awesome, and I do really want to see you in a rom-com. Oh, I know. I would love to do that. I mean, I grew up watching horror films and rom-coms. I remember going to see the wedding planner and being the only one in the cinema in Scotland and where I was. Being so excited for it. That was like, why was there only one person in the theater?

I was actually, I was like, huh? I don't think that was the case in the US. That movie was so popular here. Yeah, I think I'd gone during the day as a teenager. And so I guess it just, yeah, maybe didn't hit in the high ones as much, or it was just the time. People had cheap to tend to.

Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. We do end on a classic question that takes us right back to 12. So if you could go back to 12-year-old, Karen, what would you say or do, if anything? I would normally you would give them advice because you've lived life more and no more things. but I think I would like to get advice from her because she was more socially anxious than I am now

but was more confident at performing in front of people and so I would really like her to help me get back to that a little bit more somewhere. Love that. Yeah, I really like that. I don't think we've,

have we had that before? I don't think we've had somebody switch it like that. Yeah. You continue to excel You're doing great. Thank you for having me. That was so fun.

Thank you for taking me back to 12. Oh, my God. You can watch Life of Chuck in theaters now, and you can follow Karen Gillen at Karen Gillen. Podcrush is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navakavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at Lamanada,

And as always, you can listen to Pod Crush ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye. I'm in an American High School right now because my husband is directing a film with this production company called American High. And they bought an old high school. And they just do all of their work from here. Wow. And so I'm in Syracuse, and I found this old classroom.

And so it's so funny to be talking about all of these 12-year-old experiences in a classroom. In a classroom, I feel like the whole thing has been extremely immersive. Very much.