Podcrushed - Kelly Clarkson

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Kelly Clarkson, the award-winning singer, songwriter, and television personality, brings her buoyant spirit to the pod for a wide-ranging chat about everything from winning the very first season of American Idol, to living out of her car after her apartment burned down, to the moment she had as a middle schooler when she realized she could sing. (Like, SING sing). Follow Podcrushed on socials:  TwitterTikTokInstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I was not allowed, ironically enough, to listen to secular music or perform it for a minute. Until how old? I think that was just a Unitali moved out. Oh, okay. And then as like, turns out I'm going to sing secular music. Kelly, did you sneak it? Like, did you ever listen to secular music?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either, right? Like Red Light Special TLC, that creep record? I love that song. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Sophie and I'm Nava. And I think we would have been your middle school best. Sing screaming Kelly Clarkson songs into our hairbrushes all night long. Since you've been gone. Yeah. Yeah. What is your favorite Kelly Clarkson song? I have to go old school.

I have to say since you've been gone. Because it just reminds me in middle school. Since you've been gone. How about you, Penn? Oh, Love So Soft. Love So Soft. Why is that your favorite? Because it's got the deepest groove, maybe? No, it's a, yeah, I don't know.

It's always stood out to me. I just like it. You can't rub off. You gonna love it. If you try it, got your hook. Now you're caught up. My favorite song is off her new album that hopefully you're all streaming. And it's called Magic. And we got a, we got a preview of the album, and I streamed it like 30 times.

And every time I wanted to stream it, I had to log back into this thing. So it, like, took effort for me to listen to it that many times. But absolutely. Wow. You persevered, Navs. Yeah, that's amazing. I'm going to listen to the song again. It's so good.

Does she know? Does she know? I'm going to tell her. I'm going to tell her day. What we've done for her? We're making her career. The way you see. It's magic.

It's magic. So you already know who it is. We got Kelly Clarkson today, guys. singer, songwriter, television personality, her career highlight real is just staggering. She's the first ever

winner of American Idol, which by the way I forgot, I had kind of filed it away as like, oh, it's one of the early seasons, but she is the first winner of American Idol. She's got 25 million albums sold, three Grammys, three VMAs. She's hailed as one of the greatest pop vocalists

of all time. She has her show, the Kelly Clarkson show, and she's, in four years, she's got five daytime Emmy Awards. Her kindness and generosity of spirit, I think, is what people know her for. It's what we found today. And I just want to say, as a big fan of the voice, that Kelly Clarkson, a judge on the voice, was really the only judge who ever gave Blake Shelton a run for his money.

I think statistically, she won more times than he did. Wow. That can't be true. He's the king. I don't know what you're talking about. He's not my king, but he is the king, right? True. We don't have Blake Shelton today.

We have Kelly Clarkton. Just a reminder, you stick around. We'll be right back. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louis. Nom Nom does this with food.

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Learn more at trinom.com slash podcrushed, spelled trinom.com slash podcrushed. A 15-year-old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer. I used my front teeth to saw on the rope in my mouth. He's been convicted of murdering two young women, but suspected of many more. Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these. cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed.

Stolen voices of Dull Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. You have exceptional hair. Oh. Like the beard game, the hair, I'm like. Winning at those games. That's, yes. I was like, that's like exceptional.

You know My wife really does not like it at this point Oh really? Maybe maybe that's a bit too extreme Wait the beard or the longer hair Which one? Because like some women don't like beard

Just pen in general And I'm opposite I cannot Like I even went up with my ex I was like if you shave I don't know that I will actually kiss you Or like makeup Because it

He looked so boyish When he yeah And it felt weird For me So I was like But some of my friends don't like it because the chafing, like when you're kissing a guy with like a beard or whatever, like some people don't like it. It goes from being of complete lack of effort. Yeah.

Like you just let it grow. Yeah. To then to not look fully disheveled. I got to, I have to do enough things like the oil and the trimming that it's more work than I would prefer. It's grooming. Yeah. Yeah. I am very lazy pen.

Like I don't do anything when I'm not like this is like people did this. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Like, I am very, I don't wear makeup. I don't. That's why people, I feel like in our industry, when you're not working, you're just like, you don't. It's too much all the time. So it's like, when you're not, I just, my face wants to breathe, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. But does it change how you feel going out? I actually noticed I had to go buy something at a mall yesterday and I looked so bad. I just had done nothing. And I heard someone say, Sophie, but they were talking to somebody else. but I was like, oh my God, I hope no one I know is here right now. I'm thinking if you're famous, does that change how you feel about going out in public?

Not for me. I cannot express you how much I don't care. That's amazing. I feel like I do care. I just care about things that I think are important. And I don't know. I feel like he was saying, like, was your job all the time to be like on and done and, you know, I get it, whatever. It's, I don't mind playing dress up.

Like, my team is incredible. Honestly, when they get through, I feel like we should pay them more because it's like, this is Harry Potter level skill. Like, this is not what I look like in Target. So it's like, it's real different. Do you know the framing of this show, like the middle school vibe? Yes. Okay, cool.

Such hard years. Yes. Yeah. Well, they are in some way for everybody. Yeah. Like, the truth is being young is actually, there's something about it that is unique and difficult. Yeah. So when you...

I would never do it again. Well, guess what? You can't. But walk us through. But you know what people are like, oh, I totally go back to college or I totally go back to high school? I'm like, I would never do any of that. Like, no. No.

We did get an advanced copy of your record. You have a song where you say, I'm not sure you're going to read it because I want to make sure I get it right. Yeah. Well, you basically say love is a bitch and then you apologize to your mom. Yeah. And I'm 41. Right. And so clear, so that gives us at least a glimpse of your household growing up.

Yes. I mean, you know, so just just paint a picture of us. of what was it, what was it like for you living with your mom? Yeah. Well, it was different. So I didn't just like there were, there were moments. I mean, I feel like my upbringing involved a lot of different environments, which is probably why I'm highly adaptable.

But I mean, you know, for moments we were alone and it was just us. Then there were my brother and sister lived with us and really little, like that. So I remember parts of that. And then she got remarried, so there's different parts there. So all of that. though she's very different from me like my mother looks at my sister and I like we're aliens like

she's very like you know just more conservative and like reserved like she'll she'll give your opinion trust but I just mean once she gets to know you she's kind of shy and my sister and I are like complete opposites of that like we're not shy at all so

it's just your older or younger she's older but you'll you'd probably think I'm the older one everybody always does she's seven and a half years older it's such a bitch I'm like, I'm the younger one But she's awesome But we actually grew up separately

And my brother We all grew up very separately So it was just a very different upbringing But a lot of it was very religious And so, you know, definitely You did not curse I was not allowed ironically enough To listen to secular music

Or perform it for a minute Until how old? I think that was just a unitali moved out Oh, okay And then I was like, turns out I'm going to sing secular music. Kelly, did you sneak it? Like, did you ever listen to secular music? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either, right? Like Red Light Special TLC, that creep record? Love that. Why am I singing that at, like, in junior high? I was like, that is so inappropriate. My mother had no idea. How did you sneak it?

I had a whole stash in my closet that my mother never knew about. Wow. She never went in your closet? Not really. So she trusted you then? I don't know if it was so much. trust and I think it was just she was like if you

close your door like to your room like I you know she was like just close your door like I wasn't like messy but I wasn't maybe how she wanted me to be I'm like to say creative I was creative but yeah no she she kind of let me be I was pretty independent

very young so that's cool yeah but no I snuck it yeah but I was told once I wasn't allowed to see like it was I gone into like a competition I didn't really really even realize how like I didn't listen to a lot of secular in front of here

I did every now it depended on the year y'all it depended on who was married and who it just depended on a lot of things but it was very different all the time so I just kept my thing the same in my closet but like she found out I was listening

to a jagged little pill and was not excited about that and I still listened to it well naturally yeah how old were you then do you think was that like i was in junior high so i don't know i was probably like seventh eighth grade when that came out what uh what songs do you think spoke most to you then well that's the thing too

i kind of really didn't know what i was listening to fully i don't i think a grasp it like i can grasp it as a woman at this point um but um i don't you know it's still that that that hidden track that she had at the very end that was acapella oh i love that song that was not a record that i was into so i don't what you're talking about. Oh my God! It's literally one of the best-selling records of all time. I know, I know. It's an amazing record. I mean, I know the record, but I just don't know the end. Were you allowed to listen to? I mean, because I still listen to Nirvana.

I listen to everything. And I also listen to Christian stuff too. Like, I listen to a bunch of stuff. But like, wait, you didn't listen to you. I don't know anyone. Yeah, that was not. You're the first human. Really? You were the first human I've ever meant that it has not been like, oh, my God, that record. Yeah. Yeah, it just wasn't. I mean, look, there's a lot of, we all have gaps somewhere. Like, that's just one of lunch. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't, I'm trying to think... You're a lot younger than me, though.

Maybe 30? You're not a lot younger than you. I'm 36. Oh, I thought you were 30. Oh, okay, you're 36. I'm 41. Yeah, so we're basically right there. My wife should have been listening.

You missed it, though. You're in elementary. I don't know what you guys talking about. But you're young. You actually missed it. Yeah, I was like, you'll miss it. That's why. No, I was into it.

I did not miss it. Okay. You're the cool one. Okay, I got you now. Kelly. Kelly, I want to hear a little bit more about you in middle school. And I want you to tell us. when did you know you were into music

in like a special way or when did you realize that that was a talent of yours? Well, that's actually pretty interesting because I grew up in church and everyone sings and everyone sings well I don't know if that's normal

for everybody else is upbringing but I feel like I... Just Christians. We were just, yeah, the rest of y'all were shite. No, I just meant like even in my town like even in our like choral groups like I everybody's always like oh you've like such a great voice

I'm like yeah I grew up with like a lot of singers, I feel like. Like, I don't, I don't, I didn't feel like I really stood out until there was like kind of a moment in junior high and I think I was eighth, eighth grade maybe, when I just kind of noticed I could hit things that maybe other people couldn't hit and like with more of a belt and, because we're all imitators, right, at first, like, of whatever art you're into. And I listened to a lot of, like, big female singers, like, and even male, like, Stephen Tyler

was one of my favorite. So I think I figured that out And other people kind of It wasn't even I figured it out Other people kind of said Wow you're like really good at it And I was like what? Okay It's like other people almost told me

And then you're like alright And then I found out in like high school I was like wait you can make money Like really doing that Like even because I didn't ever want to be like Who I am now Like I didn't ever want to be like the main My whole thing was I wanted to be a background singer

Because I love different genres amazing because honestly Mama didn't aim that high so I just you know what I'm saying like this rarely happens like it's like you know it's rarely statistically it basically doesn't

exactly it's like a crazy aligning of the planets like it's like you know I'm very lucky and it's a lot of hard work but also a lot of luck so and in all fairness I actually did want to be a background like I love the background parts

I love harmony I grew up singing harmony I love that they're more intricate more challenging parts I love that they're more interesting And I wanted to sing with a bunch of different artists. So that was kind of my big goal. You know, and then that went to shite. So it turns out I went the lead route after American Idol.

Was that really the turning point? Where you shifted from like, you know, whatever previous vision to, huh? Yeah, my place had burned. So I was working as a background singer in L.A. Right after high school, a little bit after I moved out to L.A. and I worked as a background singer I did a bunch of things that got paid

I thought that was incredible like learning that oh my god you can get paid for doing this and like make a living out of this that's incredible I didn't want a boring like cubical jobs

sorry cubicle job people that's so great for you it's just not for all of us who are ADHD and so I don't know I think whenever I moved out there my place burned down

and I lived in my car for a few days and then I finally had enough money to go back home to like save up money to come back out here because I don't know if you all have heard but like living in L.A. is very expensive.

And anyway, so, and I don't have like three jobs. Can I just interrupt you quickly to ask what was it like when you're building burned down? I mean, that's just a crazy. Yeah, like it was, we moved in that day.

What? We moved in and it burned it? Was it an apartment, by the way? The Croft Apartments on Croft Avenue off of Melrose. It was, I don't even know if they're still there if it's different now.

Because if it didn't burn, it had smoke and water damage to like everything. And I literally... left. We moved our stuff in because before that I had just been living on like a mattress basically with this other chick that I barely knew that I moved there with and had, you know, one room in a bathroom, no kitchen. It was like college, like a dorm situation almost in this person's house. So we just saved up money to move into this apartment, moved stuff in. Our insurance didn't kick in

until it was like the next day or two because like what are the chances, right? Yeah, no, truly. And then went to Chili's to get some to go. some chips and salsa and came back and they were like, you can't get through here. And we were like, oh, we just need to get to our apartment. And they were like, you can't literally hours within we moved in. That's crazy. It was pretty crazy. Yeah.

There is footage of me on the side of the street looking like not great. And like, you know, I'd have been moving all day, like with a handkerchief of my head. Yeah. Because they were like, oh, we heard you just moved in. Yep. When I heard that story, it made me. me wonder what is your relationship to fate? Like the

fact that that happened and then you you, as I understand it, you auditioned for American Idol partly because I moved home like literally I lived on my car for a few days because I had I was finishing out a job and I had a crunch gym membership and that's where I had showered.

And then I just was like this is going to be too difficult. The roommate that I'd moved out there with were very very different individuals so that was already kind of a little little hard. And yeah, I just, I was like, all right, I'll just move. I pivot very easily. I think, like, coming back to that childhood stuff, like, I've had to adapt, like, a lot of my life, which I'm actually very grateful for, I'm not complaining. I just mean, I think it helps me in this career,

and I think it helps me in life, like, just be like, all right, we got to pivot. So, but yeah, no, I wasn't even, I didn't like cry or anything. I just, I think it was more hysterical. I was like, what are the chances of this happening to someone? You just went to Chile. Please. That doesn't even take that long. To not even go and eat and sit down. It was to go. It was hot in the car. Yes.

Wow. It was hot in the car. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe everybody made it out. I don't think anybody, and they never really said, like we kept trying to figure out because we were new. Obviously, we'd been there for hours. So I don't even ever remember figuring out how it started or no one wanted to take credit for that number.

So, yeah. So it was, it was a really, it was a really weird night. And I'm not going to out this organization, but one of the biggest aid organizations ever turned us away. Like, we had nowhere to go. And like we walked in because they said, oh, if you go to this church, it was like a, you know, like a gym or something attached to a church or whatever, one of their fellowship halls or something. And they were like, oh, we have too many in here. And it was like, is that a, can you do that? Or is that like what your whole point?

So, yeah. And my roommate ran off with these. randos and we're like I'm going to go stay with them and I was like well I'm not going to become a date line special so I'm going to hang out my car I was like I'm just going to and I don't even remember seeing her after that have there been other moments in your life when something like seemingly kind of catastrophic happens and then it it leads to something greater I mean honestly I'd say the most catastrophic thing was probably my divorce so yeah that that um was pretty horrible and just you know you don't see it coming because you see the struggle obviously for years

but like you try or whatever but you know I think when you're in that you cannot see anything else in front of you like it's just it really is all consuming grief in general so yeah um I think that turned into like all the sudden now I live like I literally live in New York now and I'm done in L.A and I've never wanted to live in L.A. So it was very beautiful that I got the opportunity to move the show here and now I have this yeah we're starting fifth season in the fall here at 30 Rocks

so my whole life there's something horrible that happened but now came this beautiful thing like I'd been writing something for Broadway I'd be a musical theater kid like I'd been doing stuff that like kind of was leading up to this

and I didn't know you know and so it ended up it ended up being this really beautiful thing so yeah that's really cool yeah which you don't see in the moment and people tell you oh it's going to happen you're like shut up yeah stick around we'll be right back all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that

dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed, you don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder, I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down,

I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that

I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it you know anti-aging and then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8 which is really good for I think mood and stress

I sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible honestly you don't even need to mix it with water and yeah I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. The first few weeks of school are in the books and now's the time to keep that

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I actually didn't fall in love, like love, love, until I was 30. So, like, yeah, I didn't even know that. But that's real. By the way, that's fair. I think that's probably very common, and I hear you. Yeah, I don't know that it's common where I'm from. I think they pretty much think you're dead if you're single at 30. Sure.

But that's not necessarily love. No, totally, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, I didn't really know love until my ex. But my first, like, big crush. His name was Matthew, Michael Penwarden. and he was he worked at the movie theater

my first job was a movie theater and I was like 17 and he was older and he was funny I really like funny so it was cute too I just mean like humor is my thing so yeah I love

I thought he was so adorable like I didn't love him like real love him but I just mean like you know he was my first big like huge crush but I'm like late I'm like I feel like like even my daughter like

she could be boy crazy like I was never really boy crazy like I was just like aw boy crazy like around 17 what happened with that guy well he was a lot older so that's inappropriate so and he had a girlfriend

and anyway some details we left out in the first time yeah but I will say he ended up it was like I think like a year later or something he he was oh

actually something horrible I just remember what happened horrible happen with his ex at that time and um and then we ended up like we kind of talked for a minute but then it just wasn't that's the thing I think he's great but it just when you actually start talking to someone that you've kind of put up on a pedestal then you're kind of like I think I built you up differently than I thought you actually were you know I think you do that a lot in your youth as well um or during your marriage sometimes um But I just, yeah, that was, I think, you know, we had a little, like, date thing, but, like, it wasn't, like, a huge. We never really dated kind of thing. But, like, yeah, I don't, it, I just kind of recognized. I was like, I think I thought you were someone you weren't. Like, you know, it was, I built you up to be somebody that was different that I thought was more for me. But, yeah. But he was really funny and it was a fun crush. Like, what a beautiful. I love that. I hate whenever people are like, oh, you're too young to actually know it. I'm like, shut up. Let him have their moment. It's such a beautiful, free.

you're not jaded you know what I'm saying like I will say though that is the first time I've ever been crushed though too because I'm the one who I'm not old school I'm not like old fashioned I told him I liked him and like once he was available

I'm not that girl but like once he was available I told him I had a crush and he was like oh that's so cute and I was like oh shit that's not what you want to hear I know I was like oh yeah I'm so cute so I'm gonna go

so that was devastating that was yeah that sucked but character growth it'll bring out the funny yeah did you feel like after experiencing a rejection like that after you were bold enough to tell him how you felt yeah did you continue to do that in your life or what did it kind did you shy away from doing that again I'm like incapable of shying away like I just if I want something I just pretty much go for it. Even with my ex, like, I made the first move. Like, if I, if I want something, I'll pretty much just tell you. You get crushed sometimes, because actually my ex crushed me at first whenever we had that conversation, but it was a little awkward, just the, his father was my manager. It was just really complicated. So, but yeah, no, I don't know, I never, I'm not like

that person that, like, gets beaten down and, like, doesn't try again. I will keep trying, even when I know there's no way to win. Yeah. Like, I'm that person innately. I'm like forever an optimist. So, um, or delusional, whichever way you want to go. But yeah, no, it, it does crush you though. There's those, I mean, you, that's where a lot of my songwriting and stuff comes from, too.

Is that like devastation. You're like, ooh. But I also think what a wonderful thing to experience. Like, if you're experiencing that, that depth of devastation, then you're also experiencing that depth of like magic i think so of course that i mean that's why we use the period of life because it's like the first time that suddenly you're open to the kind of feelings and thoughts and ideas are going to be having for the rest of your life before that you actually just even neurobiologically all that stuff you just weren't able to have and then suddenly it's open

and so who you are in those early stages is a really interesting it's just a really interesting sweet spot that never happens again yeah i'm just kind of curious like where is that where's at 12 and 13 years old, like, how did you feel about yourself as an artist and a performer? Was that already there, you know? I think, yeah, I think it may be around the age of 13 is whenever I really started to think I, I just, I guess it's a really cool thing when you're a kid and I don't know, you find something you feel special at that you feel like you stand out in a way, especially when it's so hard, because sometimes you want to be a wallflower in junior high or high school, you don't want to stand out, but it started to give me a level of confidence and everything. So even around

people would be like, oh my gosh, are you going to sing at the talent show? Are you going to sing at church and Sunday? Are you going to, like just the curiosity from people is, you know, and the support I think was very helpful, you know, and then I ended up, I think the hard thing for me is growing up religiously speaking and everyone telling you in the beginning, like, I mean, it was like passive aggression. Yeah, like with the like, while you're singing for the Lord, aren't you? I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I feel like God made love and God made all these other things that I like to sing about, you know? I love that, Kelly.

Justifying any song I wanted to sing. But I don't know, I feel like that's when I started. I almost like that it happened like that, though, because it really does force you. When people push something on you, it forces you to really look at if you like that or what you do like, you know, when you're given guidelines, or not guidelines, but restrictions. restrictions almost, you know, and you have to play between the lines. You know, it's, well, what's outside the lines? You know what I'm saying? Like, it makes you curious.

And so then you just start to, I think, develop as an artist, like, whether it's people you're listening to or friends you're meeting that are kind of changing the course of who you are as a person to, like character-wise, personality-wise. But I don't really think, if I'm being truly honest, I don't think until I really got out on the road and started touring and really, like, meeting all the things. these different artists on the road, all these different musicians pouring into me what they knew, me pouring what I, you know, had. And like, really that network and that, um, exchange of just musical backgrounds is like incredibly important. You know, I remember like what my one boyfriend I had,

like I'll forever be grateful. First of all, he's a good dude. But secondly, he introduced me to Patty Griffin and I was like, you will forever be held in high esteem for me. Like it's, it like, it like really changed me as a songwriter, so I don't know. I think I honestly didn't really figure that out because I think that's what sucks now is like there's no really A&Ring anymore and there's no really time you spend

with it. Like you two didn't hit right off the bat. You know what I'm saying? Princeton hit right off the way. It was like they built that and then they had that time to tour. They had that time to like marinate who they were, right? And so I don't know, I think that that's kind of a lost art form and I didn't

really figure out who I really wanted to be till then, I think, my 20s. Your first sort of international hit was Miss Independent, I think. And my impression of you, even talking to you now, but before talking to you, but sort of someone who's followed your career, is that you seem very independent. And I kind of want to say something, but let me know if we should edit it out because it might be sensitive. But I remember you, like, fighting back against...

I love that preface. Sort of like fighting back against the contract that you had with Idol and being kind of outspoken about it. And to my knowledge, like one of the only contestants who was, you're making a face like that doesn't register. Oh, no, no, no. I'm just saying sometimes people flip things. I had a not so great relationship with RCA. I had a great relationship with 19 records who is actually the creator. Simon Fuller is the creator of Idol. It was a management company, record company, all that. No, actually, I have the craziest story about him. I was, I was unhappy. I had worked, I think it was like three years with 19. And it just, I never actually worked with Simon Fuller. Like, I worked with everybody that he, like, hired out of America.

You know, I don't even know if he really knew everybody I was working with. You know, it was that kind of, and he is so kind and cool. And finally, I called him. I was, like, at an MTV iced out, some New Year's Eve or something. And I called him, and I was crying because I felt bad, because I really do genuinely love Simon Fuller. He's very kind and cool and, like, is the main reason why I'm sitting here right now. So other than like, obviously I work hard, but like, he heard me and immediately said, like, wasn't combative because I said, I love you, but like I can't, like, I don't work with you. And this, I'm actually miserable with the people that you've surrounded me with. Like, this is, like, this is a, like, I might quit. Like, this is not fun. Like, it's not worth it. You know, I have a really big problem with people that lie. And so I'm just like, especially little ones, I'm like,

Why are you lying about something little like that? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just, it's a little odd. And it's a red flag. So I had that conversation with him, and he immediately said, I totally understand. I will let you out. I will honestly even help you find new management.

And I will help you find. So he, actually, the creator of Idol, was very helpful in that. I had a hard time with the other half of the record label part, which was RCA. That was not fun. And I sort of remember you being outspoken about it somewhat. Yeah. And it like registered for me as like a human like, oh, this girl is standing out.

And I feel like most people don't. So I've had this impression of you. Maybe the fusion of that and Miss Independent is like Kelly Clarkson is so independent. And I relate as an independent person. But I lately have been feeling like, I think I'm too independent. Like I think I'm missing out on like there are blessings and joys that come from relying on other people and just like, asking for help. Like, I recently had really, really bad stomach virus and just, like, couldn't bring myself to ask anyone to walk my dogs. And I was, like, practically passing out on the

sidewalk. You're like, I can do it all. Yeah. I was just like, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to figure this out. And so I just want to know, what is your relationship to independence? And are you really independent? Do you feel like you ever miss out on what comes from being a little more dependent on other people? I feel like age helps with that. So I, in my 20s, horrible. Asking for help. horrible about being honest with people like around me that were very unhealthy people like around me like you know so I was I would always walk on eggs because I would always I'm it's my tendency as a

whatever childhood trauma to like try and make it okay so like and I will accept things that you should never accept as okay you know so I think my 20s were really hard in figuring that out but now I mean, I think it's one of those things where I feel like I'm very independent. Yes. I love doing things. I literally like right before here I was at my ranch of Montana like we're planting trees. We're planting gardens. I'm with them. We're making trails. I'm moving giant trees from the trail. I'm sawing them. Like, you know, I love doing all that. So I like being independent. I like the empowerment of it. But I'm also quick to look at my friend with me on the trail and be like, dude, can you? I'm dying. I'm like, so I'm also like able. I think, I think, and I guess the smarter way is to, able to, when you're put in a leadership position and you don't want to be a leader, being able, like learning how to delegate respectfully is a very hard thing, especially when you're young and you're younger than most people that you work with. That was a very hard learning curve for me. So that, that actually helped me, though, be able to be dependent upon people and rely on people.

But I still haven't really found that in relationships. But, like, professionally, like, no, I have a, I walk a, I think a beautiful line of, like, being enough independent, you know, having enough independence, rather. And then also allowing people to, one, do what they do and shine as well and be able to help you. Because I love helping people. So why would you want to take that from someone, you know, the opportunity to feel good, like, to help you too? Yeah, I love that you bring up that point. Nava, I was a special education teacher and a general education. He tried both certifications.

And when I was training in my classes for special education, a big part of the discourse is like independence, independence, independence. How do we help all children, no matter what their needs are as a learner, to be independent? And then I worked at a school with every classroom was integrated between special education and general education. You had two teachers. And they started to shift. They realized that, okay, independence is important. what can we also learn about interdependence, helping students to actually become...

Think outside themselves and also be helpers and also, yeah. Exactly. And that helps not only the students who have special needs, but also... Teachers empathy for others. Yeah. Which I think is a really beautiful distinction. I love... It's the worst idea to separate any kids.

I get that it takes a lot of effort. We were just talking about this beforehand, too. Like, even my kids are both dyslexic. So it's a really hard thing to ask a teacher, especially in public school system, which I'm from, my mother was from when she taught, it's a hard thing you have, you know, 26 to 30 kids in a class. Yeah, it's too many. And that's way too many, first of all. And it's hard enough having that many if they're all in the same learning curve. And they're all not.

There might be two each on the same learning. It's true. Yeah. But I do think it's so important to integrate because. you're shielding it's just the same reason too when people come on my talk show this is the same kind of metaphor and they're like oh I really want my kids you know inclusivity is so important I'm like 100 percent and I'm not saying that for any other reason like that's important for like they're like it's important for people to see what they can achieve I'm like it's also important for my kids to

see other things other cultures other people that's important for everyone everyone wins in that environment you know so I don't know I think I think you're right like every kid learns in that environment and it teaches empathy, which is what I think we're missing as a society as a whole a lot of times. It moves us from like the goal being like individualism basically to like community, helping those around you. Yeah, looking outside yourself. That's super important. And we'll be right back. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big, without compromising on quality.

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inspiration from do you feel like it comes from a force outside of you do you still kind of believe in a higher power like what's all that for you uh yeah i definitely believe in something bigger than all of us I grew up, Southern Baptist, so I will say there was a lot that I didn't like about how I grew up or like things I saw, but I also had an amazing experience as well with certain people and that were, you know, stepped in as like father figures or, you know, just supported me like as a kid that didn't have that, you know? So, and I got that via church and I got that, I don't know, as well, like keeping me out of trouble. I feel like I'm from like a, when you're from a small southern town, there's not much to do, except things you probably shouldn't.

So, or any small town maybe, but especially in the south, we get real bored. So anyway, so I don't know, I feel like it kept me, it kept me grounded. It taught me to have a servant's heart. I love that. There's so much I can pull from my childhood and religion that I, you know, am a part of, was a part of. but also I think it has advanced into something that's like even more open in the sense of like getting to travel all across the world and seeing these different cultures and seeing how they worship and seeing what they worship and seeing what they hold in, you know, high regard and how it

helps them. And, you know, I just, why would you not be open to like even hearing what someone has to say, you know, speaking about spirituality and stuff like that? So I'm always open. and I the first part of your question though was oh muse so I was like I love the first part I was trying to think of what you said I love a muse

I really do I think every artist does even if it's not like even in the song I hate love on this new record like my muse were two movies like you know I love the notebook but I also love it's complicated because that's like real

I know the notebook love is real and out there so quit hate on me, but I just mean it's rare and that's very movie-like and so I don't know, I thought it was kind of funny to point that out and I think that you can, you know, you can be inspired by so many things, movies, other

music, people in your life that will never know songs are about them. But I don't know. I think it's fun and it's creative and I like having a muse, I do. What is this complicated?

I'm like wrapping my I'm like to start some kind of, do you and your wife live here? I'm like, do you live in New York? Okay, I'm going to start some kind of movie like club with y'all. But no, I feel like I know the title. Alec Baldwin, Steve Martin, Merrill Streep. Yeah, okay, that was like recent-ish, 10 years ago, is. It was like a decade maybe, yeah, yeah.

All right, all right. Yeah, Krasinski, I think, is in it. Like, there's a lot of great people in it. It's so good. But the point is, is that her character, which I related to, just hadn't concluded, even though they'd been divorced, you know, for a while, or separated or whatever, this character goes back to what she 100% should not go back to. But, like, you cannot fight chemical reactions sometimes, you know?

Like, you can't fight that. It's like innate, there's a reason why you're attracted to each other in the first place. So the whole philosophy of, like, that's why I say, I hate love. I don't hate love, I love, but I just, I hate what love can do. I hate that it can promote blinders sometimes You know and I hate that you know You end up seeing hope and potential Instead of what's actually there

So that that's what I just referenced That my muse you know is really Those two movies for that song Yeah you mean Yeah there's something we think about a lot You need to watch it Yeah I'm That sounds like something

I could watch with my mom I feel like my mom loves that Oh my God anybody I love My kids watch it My nine year old likes it Yeah, it's funny. Steve Martin and Meryl Streep get high at a party at their kids' party. It's hilarious.

I'll do it. It's funny and it's like, I mean, I'm like, man, jagged little pill. I got a whole basket I'm putting together for you. Kelly, you need to hang out with Penn and, yeah, let's indoctrinate him. It's a pop culture. But this is something that we think about a lot here is like the love fantasy machine of pop culture. Yes. You know what I mean?

because you're talking about love... And what society tells you love is. Yeah, and like you said something I think is interesting, which is you can't fight those feelings. And I... I mean... You can, it's just hard. Yeah, I agree with you.

And I think, like, what it really takes to... Rather than, let's say, fight, let's say, like before we were saying, rather than independence, maybe this interdependence. Because, like, the idea we have about independence is sort of a little bit of a fantasy, too, like a man is an island. Well, that's never been true.

Maybe if it was thousands of years ago, it's not anymore. We're all interconnected and we're interdependent. So, like, I wonder if we shouldn't be fighting those feelings as much as realizing, you know, what level of love they are. Because I feel like love, you know, we've made love so physical and sexual, you know, and kind of basic in a way. Yeah. But then there's the love that it takes to like... Like you dumb it down. Yeah, right.

And there's a love that it takes to, like, raise a child. child, which is such a different kind of like you are, you know, the patience and discipline you have to show yourself in order to inculcate that in them. I mean, it's just like... And also, just if I can interject, like, then the conversation comes up. No, I'm going. This is my show. No, no, I'm so sorry. No, I'm just getting interject because you just brought up something important that I don't

think people talk about a lot. Like, when you do go through divorce, especially with young kids, the definition of love comes up quite a bit because they're like... That's so true. You don't love Daddy anymore. wait so you don't love daddy anymore and I'm like well no no I was like I love daddy I love that daddy gave me you too we just we we we don't like each other like we did you know and it's just different now but then it comes into like you see it in their face and so you have these conversations

because they question can your love change for me that's the whole thing but we have a blended family I have a stepson oh so I'm I'm well well well well well aware it's and then it's hard when they go well where's why don't why don't we have a grandpa from you and then it's like well wait you told me love was different with a parent and a child than with you know with a husband and a wife and I go well it is okay well then it's not because your dad left you right so like why so that I'm like stop it with the question yeah I was like I don't know how old are you I was like it's so hard and my daughter is nine and curious and just needs To know everything.

You know, my son is like, not like that. He's different, and he just has his own world, and then Elvis and he'll come out six months later, and you'll be like, you were listening to that? Totally, no. I love how children reveal that we're performing intellectual gymnastics around things that are very clear and kind of straightforward. You know what I mean?

And it's in relationships. I think it's even, like, I remember the first time that my wife said when her first, my stepson, was probably, seven or eight something like that she used the term girlfriend very explicitly she said

she mentioned some past relationship of mine and said oh that was his girlfriend and then I remember thinking like that's the first time he's heard that one let's see how this goes because the concept no that's the same thing

so my kid will see like Justin Gorini and we dated for a bit after Idol so they saw him somebody had me sign something that horrible movie. Anyway, they had me signed something and my kids, yeah, it's horrible.

Contractually obligated. Anyway, but they saw it and they were like, wait, was this your boyfriend? And I was like, oh, well, actually we did date for a little bit. And them putting that together. So you're with another man

other than our father? And why, yeah, right. And they're like, so you weren't married? Oh, my God. Then there's the question of like people they know and like certain people are super religious which is totally fine in their lives and you know maybe still frown upon you know having a kid before marriage and some are more like hey life happens you know like that's

maybe not how they wanted or whatever so there's people in their lives too that that's happened and they're like you can have a baby and not be married and it's like oh you know what I just they didn't tell you this in the handbook of having children I was like I don't want to have this question this conversation yeah it's really really really intense and I think what's beautiful about it. It's so involved because I think in order to have that conversation well with them because in order to simplify anything you have to

understand it and in order to understand it it's like you got to deal with your own. It really what you end up doing is you end up... Sometimes you don't even realize you don't understand it yet. Well exactly you don't realize until I ask you and you're like, huh, how do I explain a boyfriend? Yeah. How do I explain a girlfriend? It's not, you realize that it's actually not that clear necessarily because of our cultural

rules around dating are kind of arbitrary and preposterous. And I just remember, like, what it does is you start to confront your relationships with your own parents, which no matter who you are. They're the first ones at some point, and I mean this like in the best way, at some point they let you down because they're not perfect. They are not God. They are not, you know. But that's almost freeing, I think, when you're older. I agree, yeah.

And you go, oh, that wasn't about me. That was like about you. Like, that's just like my kids. Like, it's not about them sometimes. It's just about me going through something. So it's kind of freeing to have that realization, I think, later in life. But also it's hard when you have kids and you're like, wow, then what it was done to you or around to you is almost like, wait, what?

Then you look back and you're like, maybe that was really messed up. And I didn't really realize it because it was my norm, right? So, I don't know, there's a lot that happens. I think, you know, anytime somebody's like, oh, I want to have a kid, I'm like, okay well um you just need to make sure first of all you're good with no sleep and secondly um that you're really like are you good with you because if you're not good with you you're not going to be able to raise another human and you're right and you're never going to be totally good with you enough yeah Sophie's about to have a kid yeah yeah I'm pregnant congratulations thank you I was like am I good with me do you know I was like so he's going to spiral

This is, do you know, have you had a kid yet or is this first one? No, this is my first. That's a girl. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy for you. I cannot tell you, I never wanted kids, by the way. I never thought I'd get married.

I'm very much like, like, just a wander. I like, I like life and I like, I don't know, I like that I got to be selfish in my 20s. And then I ended up wanting kids later because I had step kids whenever I'm married. and I was like oh this isn't like this is kind of cool so then it convinced me to have kids right literally the greatest thing you'll ever be a part of

I know it sounds so cliche there's nothing really to say that's cooler than that I know write this down make a bumper sticker his jacket little pillow nothing better than kids no but there isn't there's nothing better like even my nine year old little baby girl

like she still I remember her is a little one in my arms and it's like she's sitting next to me or actually next to me on this side driving my ATV around the ranch at 9 and like just becoming this young woman and it's yeah literally you're gonna adore every stage some are gonna suck but like you'll still adore it because it's like even when they're being like hard it's like you kind of like that they're sticking up for themselves there's a little bit independent showing so you're gonna I'm so happy for you how fun thank you thank you so much I know we have to wrap soon I'm so sorry to jump in but I do want to make sure

we ask you about your album no so can you just tell us us Like favorite song, sort of anything you want to share about chemistry, we would love to hear it. Well, I think the important thing for me was I was releasing the album was I didn't want everybody just to hear one song before it came out because I feel like to diminish a relationship down to one thing, like one emotional state or stage of grief or whatnot is isn't cool. So I, you know, there's songs on there that are like favorite kind of high that are like very intense. like you want to rip the person's clothes off with your teeth, you know, the beginning, that beginning chemical. It sounds like it would actually take a long time. Yeah, well, then you're not good at it.

I'm just kidding. I'm just, you know what I'm saying? That fire in the beginning of relationship, like there's nothing like that high of like the opportunity. Like there's what will happen like from this feeling. You know what I'm saying? There's nothing like that. And then it kind of goes through different stages of the relationship. But I will say my favorite is that I tell people about.

I'm like, if you're going to listen to the album, I'm just going to listen to one song. at least lives in a lighthouse that's my that's my favorite one I think right now it's a sad song because it was the moment that I figured out it was over like I couldn't try anymore I was like this is no one's happy here

so you know one of us has got to make the move you know so that that was a really hard song to write but I think it's the one because it was so hard to write it matters the most to me because like I made it through it so I don't know I feel like if anybody's ever been and through that kind of hurt, like, it's highly relatable. Kelly, I loved all the songs, but I was telling them before you hopped on. I am obsessed with magic.

I was, like, playing that song on repeat yesterday all day. It's so, I just, it's my favorite song you've ever released, and it's one of my favorite songs I've ever heard. I, like, couldn't get enough of it yesterday. I was playing it all day. I was driving around, like, driving longer to just, like, keep listening to it. Oh, my God. She said she played it 30 to 40 times.

Yeah, I did, I did. And I kept having to log in. That's so funny, literally in my band, everybody. remarked on that because we played the whole record for this show in L.A. and Ere was like oh my God magic and I was like I it's that song uh means a lot different things for me personally but

that chant at the end is like you can 100% tell I'm an Annie Linux fan it's so Annie Linux on that sorry for kind of ripping your vibe Annie but I just I love her and I just it was what I wanted I was like oh it's like when you're listening Annie Linux and she does that thing where she like talks but sings

And it just feels like a chance or something. Like, yeah, I love that song. That song, and that's the thing, though it didn't work out. But, like, what a beautiful thing. Like, if I die tomorrow, like, I got to feel that. Like, I got to feel something so magical at some point. I got to feel so much love and that not everybody gets that, you know. So that's why I like that song.

It's about hope. And you got a good record. Thank you. It's an amazing. It's an amazing record. Everyone should go stream it now. It's so good. If you could go back to 12-year-old, Kelly, and say or do anything, what would you say?

You know, I mean, I've been asked this before, and then I, you know, actually... No, it's an original question. No, no, no, no. I've been asked this for, like, in just life. Because I remember that there's a Brad Paisley song that came out. I think it was Brad Paisley. It was like, what you would tell your 16-year-old self or something. And it happened in an interview once, and I was like, huh.

And I always make a joke usually at this point, if somebody asked me this. But I think what I'd probably tell myself is, like, things may seem, like, so huge, like, in the moment. But, like, I promise you it's going to be fine. Like, everything seems so massive. like when something doesn't go right, right? And I think that we tend to, especially in our youth, everything is so detrimental. Like, it's just like, just ride it out.

Like, it's going to be fine. I think that would have saved me. And maybe teach myself how to catch some red flags and, like, you know, leave them where they are. And so I'm collecting them. So I don't know. I think maybe that. It's hard, though, because then at the same time,

I don't know that I'd actually tell myself anything because I think all those things got me to this point. Of course, yeah. It's a terrible question. No, it's a good question, but I just, I don't know that I, I don't know that I, would you want to, it's almost like, would you change anything? No, I wouldn't not change. Yeah.

I actually, no, I wouldn't. And you know, I've asked enough people this question now that, um, that my, you know, my evolving personal answer is like, I would want to demonstrate to that boy that I'm willing to, listen and I would really want to hear I'm more interested I want I wish I could recall more specifically what I would have said to me now you know yeah because I think what I think you know the reason being young is hard is is is is the same reason that we can't always recall kind of our essence then it's it's something I don't want I don't feel in my case

something has been lost but I think it can be yeah I actually wish I could hear something very straightforward for myself then because that's when I was learning and I think a lot of us learned to start hiding who you are. You are becoming who you are but then you are learning how to hide that and that's a, that's not a just

society. We shouldn't have that. Here's I agree completely. Here's what's scarier than what you just said is when you have your kid and you see that happen. And you're looking at them and you're like oh no. Like this whole time I

thought I was going to keep you from that this whole time I thought I was going to help you and can steer you clear from and it turns out you are my little identical twin when it comes to some things you know so that's a hard pill to swallow but I mean I guess you have the experience to at least sit in it with him and maybe the was what you said maybe it's just listening yeah to her you know and to him well people people don't seem to it's hard to it's hard to listen to your parents. I think somehow, that's my goal, is like, if my kids can, not can't, if they want to.

I want them to want to listen. Yeah, I was going to say, I was, I was going to say, I'm pretty, my kids are pretty respectful. Like, you know, any kid can be a turd sometimes, but like, you know, we all can, even adults, but, like, I just mean, my kids are pretty respectful, but I do find myself all of a sudden being like, I mean, doing that parent thing. Like, yeah, I don't, I'm not going to go through the time right now to describe to you or explain to you why I'm not I can't take that time every time I just said go do it like

just go do it like you know what I'm like I can do that tomorrow today I'm running on empty so I need you to gather your troops and get it done like yeah that's but for the most part I'm pretty I'm pretty I don't know I've I've I've developed a pretty healthy relationship with them as far as like you know when I ask them not to do something they generally are pretty good about following that so that's amazing well now we're going over we could keep going I'm sorry I'm a talker no no no we'd love you Kelly but it was such a pleasure to have you

thank you for no thank you all for having me next time if I do see y'all in person I'm gonna hug you like a weird awkward long hug but you won't appreciate I'm gonna hold on tighter bye y'all bye Kelly you can buy Kelly Clarkson's new album chemistry

it's out now and you can also watch the Kelly Clarks and show on weekdays on NBC. You can also keep up with her online at Kelly Clarkson. It's hilarious. I came out. I was talking to my crew, like right when I ran into him. And my videographer Weiss was giving me shit. And I was like, fucky Weiss.

And I literally said, fucky, And I turned to look at Penn and was like, oh, hi. It was the sweetest fuck you. Yeah, it wasn't really nice, like you. But it was like, I was like, well, that's a way to meet someone. Kelly Clarks and America's sweetheart. Stitcher.