Podcrushed - Lisa Kudrow

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

America's favorite friend Lisa Kudrow speaks candidly about her adolescence, family tragedy, her days in a comedy troupe with Conan O'Brien and what it was really like to revisit "Friends" after all these years.   Follow us on socials! InstagramTwitterTiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada And we were just in P.E. and playing soccer, and this one boy who was cute, I kicked it, and he went, ooh, that was good, Lise, and sort of paced me on the back, and I went, oh, my God, is it possibly you could like me? You're part of the team, yeah. Yeah. Could he like me? Could I have a boyfriend?

Like, you just, like, go to? Yeah. Oh, my God, it's what high school is he going to? Would we be at the same high school? Can we get married? Yeah, I'm just like... Lisa, that's what I'm like today. I'm like still in that like...

Wait, he waved at me with like a smile. What does it mean? What were our children that like? Exactly. This is Pod Crushed. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing middle school story at a time. And where guests share their teenage memories,

both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn. A middle school dropout. There's three beehis who are living in Brooklyn. Wanting to make stuff together with a particular fondness for awkward nostalgia.

Well, I struggle with nostalgia. I'm here for the therapy. So, Penn, I am aware that you are directing an episode of you this season and you're like right in the thick of it. How's that going? It's just, it's a lot of preparation and organization, which now that you know is my, is where I sell. What you love. That's where you shine. Yeah.

Well, I've managed to have a career where, you know, being, uh, organizing. organized is not really a part of any of that. And it's like I'm just, I'm looking forward to being on set, even though I know that like once the clock starts, it's just, you know, in television, you are just the entire time. You're basically like, all right, how under the gun am I? It's pretty intense. I have a probably really ridiculous question, but I was in the car with David the other day and I just like stopped us in our tracks. And I was like, how does Penn direct when he's in the scene? Like, do you, are you thinking kind of simultaneously? about your own character, but also what notes you might give to other characters in the scene? Like, just logistically, how does that work? Do you cut yourself off? Well, the truth is I'm already watching. Like, Joe is such a harshly, harshly critical mind. He's basically watching the person I'm in a scene with.

So I already basically watch them silently while I'm in a scene with them. That's so interesting. The one thing that is tough is that I'm in every scene nearly. like literally nearly and and that is hard to direct at the same time so how that's going to function I'll have stories next episode I guess and that's that story that's Nava how is your puppy well my puppy's doing great but I was going to share this week I'm going to have like a Larry David gripey moment I've had like a medical issue that I've been struggling with for about a year and it's not like threatening but it is very annoying and I've seen like three different doctors

here in LA and none of them were like, hey, you should go see a specialist for this kind of, you know, issue. None of the diagnoses were accurate and none of the treatment plans were working because it was inaccurate. And I've been like struggling with this. And I finally went and saw a specialist because I myself, like, researched it and was like, oh, this is the kind of doctor I should be seeing. So I went and saw a specialist in the O.C. He like did a test, diagnose me accurately, put me on a treatment. It's already working. And I was just feeling so upset that like for a year I've been dealing with something that like, if one of the doctors had just been like, hey, this isn't my specialty.

Let me refer you to a specialist. So the key with Larry David is that he's funny. This is a tense comeback moment. The thing that happened there, see. Is that it was just a right. That is hilarious. Note taken, note taken. Today's guest is none other than, well,

they truly, factually, rarely can you say this the way I can right now. But the iconic Lisa Kudrow. Yes? the Lisa Kudrow, the Emmy Award winning SAG Award winning Golden Globe nominated actor who won over the public as Phoebe Buffet on a show called

buddies. It was on on friends. She's been in I mean just like so many movies, too many to list. One of them actually is something I almost forgot that we were in together, EZA. So today's conversation was almost like a reunion, except one of the people present didn't know the other one.

And I won't tell you which one that was. You're not going to want to miss this. Stick around. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time every single.

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with nom-num, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy talk is my love letter to black storytellers,

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Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast or watch us on YouTube. When Penn is ready, we'll just get started. I think I'm ready. I think I am. Penn, are you going to welcome Lisa? You know, this is what I'm terrible. I'm so bad at this. I'm so used to doing interviews.

Oh, yeah. Honestly, this is... What on earth are you doing here? Yeah, that's a good question. But honestly, yeah, I share with my co-hosts the... It's really an honor to have you with us, so thank you for coming on. Thanks for asking me to be on. So we wanted to ask you sort of as a kickoff question.

Is there a memory that you associate with your own coming of age? Coming of age. So in junior high, this is obviously before social media, It was still 1977. And girls would do this thing where you sit around in a circle and it's called like a bull session. Okay.

Or a bullshit session. Also, you have to know that this is taking place in Encino, California, which is the Valley. Oh, yeah. And sit in a circle and go around each person to everyone in the circle

and say, okay, Karen, like I love you, but you do this thing that is so annoying. And I, I mean, I should, hate it when you, you know, say, hi, how are you doing? It's just, it's so phony. I just think you're so phony. Wow. And like the few times that I was even allowed into a circle, no one would have anything to say about me. It was, okay, Lisa, like, I don't really know you. So was that worse than being like, I hate this about you? So invisible, irrelevant, completely non-existent. And I would try to reframe it because I'm good at that, you know, like, okay, so nothing

bad. I mean, that's what I was my first thought. I was like, oh, you got out Scott Free, but. No, I didn't exist. They were engaged with each other, and I didn't exist. And that's like the best of my stories. Wow. How did you even get invited into this bullshit circle session, would you call it?

Yeah, well, both session or bullshit session. It would happen at slumber parties if I was invited. I, you know, found a way to get myself invited to it. Yes, one time was something over in gym. And for whatever reason, we had to wait and we weren't doing anything. And, you know, hey, we're not doing anything. Let's tear each other apart. Wow.

That's really bold. I think the equivalent for me in my middle school years, we definitely did that kind of thing, but it was all anonymous. It was online. It was. Oh, that's horrible. I mean, I'm trying to figure out which one's worse. Oh, it's all horrible.

Which one's worse to have it in your face, know who said it. And after me, but before online stuff, there were these notebooks that got passed around where people would write things about someone. And it just got passed around. That's really vicious. All that to say, whatever's happening online, it's been happening. Lisa, maybe you can paint a broader picture for us of who you were in middle school, 12, 13. What were you interested in? Who were your friends?

So elementary school, I was popular. I had a lot of friends. Around halfway through sixth grade, it just started happening where it becomes about boys and how attractive you are and social positioning. And I remember a girl once saying to me, it's so weird that, you know, you were popular and now you're not. Wow. And I went, what? I don't even know what you're talking about. I've always sort of been like a little bit elsewhere, you know. And I didn't understand that and I didn't care.

And then seventh grade, my best friends at the time, you know, had gone to Hebrew school. So they knew people already. And, you know, that's not a time of, oh, allow me to introduce you to Lisa. You know, that didn't happen. So I'd be, wouldn't know what to say because they're talking about Hebrew school. I can't really participate in. No one's saying anything. No one's introducing me.

And at one point in seventh grade, my best friends sent me a note like, hi, we're in Hebarth and we're really bored. And, you know, we just want to say that, you know, we're talking in a group and you just sort of stand there and you don't say anything. You don't do anything. And I think it would be really good for you if you were just on your own now. Oh, my gosh. I thought they were going to invite you in. Yeah, totally different than what I was picturing. Completely dropped.

I had one friend, thank God for her. And on short days, you know, half days, everyone would like make plans go to lunch. Mm-hmm. out and my sister who's eight years older than me this might make me cry so if i'm like 13 she's 21 she um would find out when my short days were and come pick me up and take me to lunch because i had no friends to go with that's very touching yeah that was really sweet yeah yeah yeah Lisa you were saying that like those friends had said to you you were standing in the circle you weren't saying much. And I'm wondering, why was that? Was it because you just weren't interested?

Was it, were you shy? I didn't know how to participate. They were talking about, like, Hebrew school, and they were trying to sound stupid. And I didn't understand that either, you know. I mean, so I really didn't fit in. I loved vocabulary tests and same, same, make a point of, you know, using those words in a sentence if I could. And part of their letter, one of their grievances was and you use these words like that nobody knows and who cares and you're, you know, I just

thought it was really important to sound smart whether you were or not. And I mean, I would say things like oh, that sounds like an iatrogenic problem, you know, that... I don't know what that means. Caused by, you know, medical treatment that went long.

I was quoting Macbeth. Like, oh, wow, it's like the three witches. Up is down. and down is up and, you know, fair is foul and foul is fair. And that's how it felt to me. It just felt like, wow, but the popular people aren't nice. It's not like they have a lot of friends because they're so nice. They have a lot of friends because everyone's afraid of them. It just did not make sense to me.

And everybody else, it felt like they were just getting with the program. You know, there's social hierarchy and I've got to figure out how to navigate it. Yeah, you stood outside of it. Did these feelings of isolation, maybe isolation is a strong word, but I'll go ahead and use it. Like, did the feeling of isolation contribute to your desire to perform or the way that, because I know that it's probably true with a lot of actors and artists. I know it was for me. I mean, performing was the only place that I had ever felt this sort of community, you know,

like people uniting around a common goal. And also what I loved was just that it was a lot of different kinds of people, ages. And, you know, it seemed like a more diverse background than, I don't know, going to school, for instance. Yeah, I mean, I did do this thing called, it was like a play production or something. And yeah, I was funny. You'd do lip sinks and you'd make up sketches and you'd do stuff. And then the school, different classes would come in and watch and you'd perform. And it was something that I was good at. And so there was a certain level of respect, finally and then other friends that I could sort of make there and I did I invited them all to

my bat mitzvah and they were all like oh thanks didn't know we knew each other that well to be invited but I didn't care I was like yeah no it's I mean yeah come I don't care you're my new friends only tell us about your first crush or your biggest crush your biggest heartbreak around that well yeah so I mean, that stuff I was talking about isn't the bad stuff, by the way. So I did have a huge crush on this boy who was so adorable. And we were in the same math class, and he seemed really nice, but, you know, we didn't really speak. Okay, so here's the bad thing.

So one day I was late to my math class, and I went to my locker. And my locker was next to a guy who was in ninth grade. I'm in seventh grade. And he's there, and he's good friends with a... really popular guy. And he starts making fun of me and then he shoves me up against the locker and starts pumping.

Whoa. And I don't know what was going on. And I, you know, was crying. And I could see out of the corner of my eye, the popular guy looked really uncomfortable. I was like, okay, man. And then the guy stopped. And I picked up all my stuff.

And I'm crying and I turn around. And the boy, that was so nice that had a crush on, was far away coming across the quad. He was late to our math class. And he was also kind of small. He's in seventh grade. So he was just trying to look away and look down. And just on every level, all of it was just, well, obviously, really humiliating.

And then when I told my one friend that I had about it, she said, oh, my God, like the popular guy. He's good friends with my brother. He's a totally cool guy. You make such a big deal out of everything. Whoa. So I just climbed up and I didn't talk about it because I make a big deal. out of everything, I guess. You know, it was such an upside down period to me.

I didn't get it. It's also just like so shameless that he did it so public. Like it just also, yeah, speaks to the culture, the fact that that's like allowed because he did it in front of people and there were no consequences. It's just awful. I mean, look, I think being a kid anyway, especially then, you're not fully human in the eyes of adults, right? And then when you're a seventh grader with a ninth grader,

you definitely aren't entitled to the regular respect, you know, that others get. And then if you're an ugly girl, then you don't count at all is sort of how it felt to me. God. Did you ever tell any adults about that? Or did you kind of, after your friend said it didn't matter, did you have to just kind of move on and not talk about it anymore? I think I did tell my parents. But I wouldn't have been able to describe it the way I could describe it now because I didn't know he pushed me up against the locker was maybe all I could say, you know. And my father just said, asshole. He's an asshole. What's his name? You know. Okay. And I had an older brother too. And they're like, oh, God, so stupid. And my father would say, boys, young, they're the most dangerous, you know, men. They have no judgment. And then he did actually what was great about my dad. he was saying, you have to understand something about the adolescent brain.

If you look at an EEG, here's where I got that, like, nothing from. He's like, if you look at an EEG of their brains, it's total chaos. There's no organization at all. So that's who you're dealing with. And I was like, okay, yeah. So it sounds a bit like you had a challenging time in middle school and maybe some social isolation. But from what you're showing, it sounds like you had a sweet family life. Is that accurate, can you show a little bit about your family dynamic?

My family was great. Yeah, I told you, my sister was so great. My brother was great. And my parents also were as supportive as they could be, you know, because it wasn't the kind of thing where you, you know, they'd like call the school and have something done or, you know, that wasn't about to happen at all. And you don't want it to happen because then what?

Oh, shoot. Then it's really bad. Further isolation. But I have to say, yeah, no, the play production and getting to be funny and that saved me. I mean, it protected me in a way because then there was some value to me and I think that's around when I could be invited into a bull session even though no one knew me very well.

Do people have a perception of you as funny? Was that happening? That was starting to happen. Is anyone else in your family funny? Yes, my family was, my father is hilarious and so my sister and my brother. My mom didn't really make jokes and she really only laughed if someone fell down or got hurt.

which we all laughed about you know but yeah no my family was really funny my dad was very funny that just reminded me when I was a kid I remember one of my mom's favorite things this is going to make her sound really bad

but was to watch figure skating just to see people fall down I can't handle that it makes me so nervous anytime they mess up I'm just like I can't do it I don't like watching yeah I love watching figure skating too Lisa were you athletic at all

I was really athletic. I was. Like softball. I felt like, oh, I can hit a home run every time. And every sport I wanted to be really good at. I didn't like football ever. And I didn't like dodge ball. I don't like balls being thrown at my face.

Fair enough. Yeah. And then that thing where, you know, and then soccer. And it was sort of co-ed by ninth grade. And I don't know why or how. And we were just in P.E. And this one boy who was cute, I kicked it. And he went, ooh, that was good, Lease, and sort of pat me on the back.

And I went, oh, my God, is it possibly you could like me? You're part of the team, yeah. That's so cute. It's honestly the smallest things at that age, someone calling you lease. Yeah. Could he like me? Could I have a boyfriend? Like you just like go to.

And then, oh, my God, it's what high school is he going to? Will we be at the same high school? Can we get married? Yeah, I'm just like. Lisa, that's what I'm like today. I'm like still in that, like, wait, he waved at me. me with like a smile? What does it mean? What were our children that like?

Exactly. So it sounds like you actually had some confidence and it was just maybe this, I mean, I don't know, because it sounds again like you had some support at home and it sounds like you responded so readily like, yeah, I was athletic, not everybody does that. So it sounds like you kind of had some, I don't know, a good foundation and it was just this period. Yeah. No, I was confident. And by the way, I half think that if you are confident, but there's a weakness, that's when the mob goes for you. It's such a hideous time for everybody.

And then if there's someone who seems to like themselves, there's that, why do you get to like yourself? I hate myself. You know, I've got all these things. And I'm barely holding on to my, you know, station in our group, you know. And then they just try to like go after. That also sounds like what happens to women in Hollywood. Like women in Hollywood who are very confident,

I feel like it's like, oh, time to tear. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's just about exposure. It's like, oh, so you must be feeling pretty confident because everybody knows who you are. So what can we find? And also it's, it makes, that's a story. Yeah. Yeah. You know, more good stuff isn't a story. All right. So let's just, let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That, that dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you?

You know, on like a one to ten. And I don't mean in the sense of vanity. I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself. I'm a householder. I have two children and two more on the way.

A spouse, a pet. You know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition where my eating's down. I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica,

these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. the three that I use I use the what is it called

the liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that

I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it you know anti-aging and then I also use the

magnesium L3 and 8 which is really good for I think mood and stress I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. Do you want to try them out?

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And I think in particular that time period was really rough for women in terms of body image. Like the image of beauty was like stick, stick thin. But I'm wondering if that starts. for you there, or if you had those feelings when you were younger, too? No, I did not. I had body dysmorphia in the way of, oh, I'm a stick, just like my sister, just like my dad. And I wasn't at all. I didn't see it.

I had no waste. I didn't see it at all. I thought I was just really skinny. I can just do whatever. Uh-uh. No, especially in high school. And I'd look at pictures and say, wow. Oh, pictures really distort reality.

Hmm. And it wasn't until friends that I realized, oh, I don't look like a thought I looked. And that's what was so jarring. And that's when it was like, oh, I've got to actually lose weight. I have to diet. Shoot. And did you feel that way? Was it internal or was it headlines that made you feel that way?

What was it? It wasn't headlines. It was just seeing myself on the show and seeing myself in. clothes and seeing Courtney and Jennifer in clothes. And at first I thought, oh, because they know, like, tailoring so they can discuss it with the, you know, costume designer about where exactly to take something in, you know. And then I'd ask one of them, like, can you come with me on my fitting? And they would because, honestly, they were like sisters, you know, they were so, oh.

And they'd come in like, yeah, no, you got to take it in here. You got to take it in there. And, yeah, honey, do that. Let's do that. And then I, that's when I would see, oh, okay, it's not just about tailoring. You know, my bot, I'm just, I'm just, yeah. And I'm not trying to say I was overweight either. I was not.

But I just had no idea the shape of, you know, my actual body. Did you end up having to do any work to undo that? Or did that perception of your body just continue? At some point, ooh, maybe not till like my, late 30s or 40s I just or later I don't know I just realized oh no it's okay this is just what I look like that's okay that's okay I mean do what you need to do to be healthy but this is this is your body it's okay but I think it also happened around a time when I felt like um remember you always you only wanted to be a character actress you're not going for you know romantic comedies

romantic lead you don't do that and that's not like a fun role for you anyway so knock it off it's okay you can look fine as you are and my husband too has always loved me the way I was but wanted me to be healthy you know right I feel like you're very beautiful but you don't need to hear that from from a random person but just to say that I I've always felt you were really beautiful thanks yeah just makes me think that like my experience of coming up in Hollywood, you know, it feels to me like no matter how close to the top or at the top anyone gets, you always feel and get a sense of what's lacking. You always feel as though you need to be one person closer to the top of the pyramid. You're always feeling, I feel like

a certain inadequacy is highlighted because the kind of extreme standard you're comparing yourself to is literally, it includes the likes of, you know, the most... Yeah, yeah, Tom Cruise. Yeah, uh-huh. Well, no Tom Cruise. Yeah, but that's the other thing I had to realize. That's all in your own head. You're doing that to yourself.

That's... No one needs you to be Tom Cruise. Yes. Or as famous as Tom Cruise or, you know, for me, at that time, you know, Julia Roberts, Meg Ryan, no one's actually requiring that of me. I mean, representatives, your agency, people, you know, I'm sure they love for you to be, you know, at the top of the pyramid, but that's it. I mean, we know we can't pay attention to that. So it's just, that's something

that you're, we're bringing to the table. I feel like that's kind of amazing that you didn't have those kind of insecurities when you were younger. I feel like if you could get through that age and not be so consumed with, with your body and insecurities, then that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, And as much as that time and how, you know, sad I just, you know, made it sound and it was hard, there was part of my brain that was, this is wrong. It's upside down. It won't be like this in adulthood. This is crazy times, and it doesn't, it can't count too much.

It's impossible to go to school every day with this. I don't know. Like, how do I get through that, though? My peers are crazy people, you know? This is my society, my community, my society is all insane people whose brains don't work. I can't. It's amazing you had that perspective. It really is.

I did. But I had it side by side with, what do I do tomorrow? Because it hurts. Yeah. You know, it still hurts. So what do I do? It also sounds like you were really ahead of the curve in a lot of ways. This is just a random thing.

But I don't know if you heard of that show, Dawson's Creek. It, like, premiered in the 90s. But it was written in a way where the character spoke. like extremely ornately and like very sophisticated vocabulary and I was in high school when that happened and there was like a shift in how like it was perceived to like speak that way wait Dawson's Creek people the characters spoke eloquently very eloquently it was like a thing that was written about quite a bit

really yeah it was like you could like improve your SAT vocabulary if you watch Dawson's Creek yeah Kevin Williamson I think who wrote it he like made a point of like having them speak in a really like elevated manner I do remember I don't know if I saw Dawson's But I remember there came this point, you know, and I was older where, yes, young people on TV had phenomenal vocabularies and lots of insight. And I remember just being so happy that that was happening. We finally all caught up to Lisa Kudrow. No, that's funny. Yes, finally. Lisa, we do like to ask people a question that I think most interviews avoid, but we like to

ask people about sort of their connection with spirituality. So you mentioned that you had a bat mitzvah. So sort of what was the role that religion played in your life back then and what's your relationship to spirituality now? Well, like everything else, I mean, I chose to have a bat mitzvah. I felt like all these friends I have that are Jewish are having bar and bat mitzvahs. I'm Jewish. I need to have a bar mitzvah. I mean, that's who I am. And it wasn't like a so maybe part social thing but remember i didn't have any friends at the time i was deciding to do it but we had a friend of the family who's a reformed rabbi and he got me tapes and so i just learned from the tapes all the prayers and everything i had to do and while i couldn't have people at a temple

he let my immediate family into his temple and let me and bat mitzvied me and then i had a party yeah that's the important part that's where i invited my acquaintances to. And they came. Yeah, you know, because other people they knew were going to be there. Yeah. It was going to be fun. Oh, by the way, I'd be there was sort of how it was. You know what I mean? Was it, even though you didn't grow up with like explicitly religious or spiritual relationship to Judaism, or maybe I shouldn't say that, but at least religious. Culturally, yes. Culturally, yes. And that's actually what I think is so beautiful about Judaism is it's rich kind of like, for lack of a better word, secular or cultural history you know it's like it's not just a religion it's it's a lot of things and

so for you at that time was there like a deepening of your jewish identity was that anything that meant yes absolutely i mean also i think i'd seen fiddler on the roof and understood that's around the area my family was from and those it just looked so beautiful to me and all those you know traditions and stuff and i started i actually got myself shabbat candles and would on Fridays just in my bedroom, like do a little Shabbat. That's really adorable. Ceremony. And, you know, my family just sort of went, okay.

And it didn't last long. But no, I was going through this period where I just wanted to learn. And after that, by the way, I was still fascinated. You know, I took a lot of, when I could, high school and college, Jewish history classes and history of Judaism and comparative of Near East Studies stuff because I was really interested. Did that, so, I mean, I'm aware that in the first season of your show,

who do you think you are, you were exploring your ancestry, right? And you, like, connected to some pretty intense revelations, right? It was my father's mother's side. And, you know, to be honest, I didn't want to be in the show. I just wanted to produce the show.

Because I was going after Sarah Jessica Parker, Spike Lee, Susan Saran. and, you know, and I was telling the guy who created the show in the UK, I was like, no, no, you don't want the likes of me. We want, let's go for, like, the big names and stuff. And he said, well, it would actually be helpful if you did. I was like, all right. He said, and we know about your, you know, your father's family is from, like, Mogalev.

And I went, what? There's a village name? And I was in, you know, I found out something about my. And I also, here's the weird thing. my father told us about the Holocaust and I was too young to hear about it honestly how old well six and there was this series called World at War World War II and they had like a few episodes or one of just about the Holocaust and I've sat next to him and watched every one of those and again I think I was too young to be seen that because I would have trouble falling asleep thinking

I thought children were always spared. I thought as a child I'd be safe. And, yeah, so it's scary. I think I was a little too young for that. And, you know, maybe as a consequence of that, all I knew was, well, I haven't heard that we had any relatives in concentration camps. So the Holocaust, yeah, but maybe not my family.

And then I did know, my dad had, said, my grandmother told me when I was like seven that her parents were killed by Hitler. And I went, what do you, was he like a serial killer? I don't know. What are you talking about?

Like, you tell a lot of crazy stories. So I don't know what you're talking about, old lady. And she's like, no, no, and she'd start crying. He killed Hitler. He killed my mother. He killed my sister, the brothers, and the babies. And, oh, I went, okay, I don't know what this could be.

But so, but anyway, just thought, yeah, I'm not sure how affected we are by the Holocaust. So stupid, this weird denial thing. And then, sure enough, yeah, because there were death squads that were responsible for about a million Jews being killed throughout, like that pale of settlement, you know, and they just round them up and shoot them and bury them in mass graves. So my, who do you think you are, was going to the place where my grandmother. grandmother's family had been killed and look a couple a few people escaped and erected a monument so there's actually a marker for exactly where it happened and for a lot of places you know scattered

around belarus ukraine other areas there's absolutely no marker at all so that i just counted that as lucky that i could see that and bear witness because there's still some people who say it didn't happen. What was I like to go through that experience, like learn that history on camera, like on a, on a show? I was worried about that, but I knew the show that I was producing. It's not a gotcha show. So if at any point I felt like I don't want to be on camera anymore, you can shoot me walking away. That's fine. And it also, you know, it helps tell the story that it's that hard that I can't, I don't even know what to say about it. But I remember feeling I don't know if I can do another minute of this.

It's so hard, actually, reading what happened exactly, talking to a couple people, one guy who was, he was a child when it happened and he watched it. So the weird things in my head were, wow, and in this country, you have to disclose if someone died in a house, and you're all still living in this village, and it was like mass murder. And then the other weird thing going through my head was,

Hitler was Hitler, his top henchmen who devised his hideous plans are who they are. But every soldier, they were brainwashed, caught up, understood, this is what had to be done. And then they had to live with it forever and ever. So there's so many lives ruined. And we know through like epigenetics that it even like imprints in the DNA of like seven generations. Like the toll of these things is so unimaginable. Yeah. I've watched a few episodes of your show, and I love it.

I think, like, the way that the show treats family history is really, like, delicate, but it's not shy. I watched Billy Porter's episode last night, which is really moving. Right. I think the argument for the way we teach history is made here. It's not about shaming anyone, but it's just reporting, here's what happened. this is how society thought of itself and other people and their place in it and here's how the people who had to endure that endured here's what they had to do to survive I think also like I mean I imagine that most of us hope that in whatever historical moment we're living we're like ahead of the curve but I think for most of us it's hard to be so far ahead of our like

cultural environment so like the norms of the time like we're all doing things that maybe future generations will be like, how could they have done this? They will. They threw things away? They thought you could throw things away? I mean, just the toll on the planet, you know, all the things are doing. And they will. I mean, we're even doing it now looking back at the 70s. Wait, women couldn't get a credit card?

Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's why. What? Yeah. You know, and then before that, wait, you know, a woman couldn't get custody of her children. They always went to the father. Oh, they were his children. Okay. That's totally what. Yeah. And, you know, women could

vote. There's even some, you know, studies showing like, oh, maybe we didn't handle COVID exactly right. Some studies. Trying to be diplomatic. Yes. Well, this is a diplomatic show, so thank you for upholding the banner. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big, without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% mongoling cashmere from $50, that's

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So he's a lamb-pe laugh guy. Keep mealtime exciting with NomNum, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-O-M dot com slash podcrushed. So I read that you and Conan O'Brien and a third person I'm forgetting his name had a comedy troop together for a brief period of time called Unexpected Company. And I was just curious if you could tell us as a story or an anecdote from that time. It was someone else's, someone else started a sketch comedy group and probably someone I knew from the groundlings who brought me into this and then I brought Conan into it going, we need to perform. It doesn't matter. Just the experience. We've got it. And it would meet, we would meet at the Celebrity Center for Scientology. Wow. And, uh-huh. Yeah, because they were sort of, it was like them doing sort of outreach. You didn't have to be a Scientologist to go in there. And we weren't really bothered when we'd walk in.

No one would say, hey, you need to, it didn't happen. It's nice. We would rehearse and then perform in the theater space at the Celebrity Center, Scientology, Celebrity Center. And, yeah, it wasn't great. It wasn't great. It wasn't great. But everyone was nice, decent folk. And, you know, and Conan was just always, yeah, that's just, he was.

nothing he has a he had a very high standard you know for how things should be did you guys meet in the groundlings or how to because that's quite an iconic duo i also just recently listened to his uh his podcast where he was describing how instrumental you were when he was like getting his iconic late night i mean like yeah right you changed the course of history yeah yes that's true so so how did you guys meet i'm just curious because it again yeah we met because the groundlings wouldn't allow us to our for classes because they wouldn't. We hadn't acted. I mean, we didn't do that together, you know, and I went to a class, he wasn't in it, the first class. They sent me to someone else named Cynthia Sagetti, who's a phenomenal improv teacher. They said,

why you go there first and then you can come audition? So I went to the first class and thought, oh, this isn't for me, I don't think, because there were a lot of people in there who were actors and they were, you know, making a meal out of stuff. and, you know, gyr, like, bad emotional adjustments, you know, sad.

Yeah, I mean, that was better than what they were doing. And, you know, and then we'd have to do something. It's like lift a disc. And we all stand around lifting a disc, and it's really hard, and they're going, and I'm like, it's not funny, and I don't know what I can't. And I'm hearing her say, commit, commit. I'm like, I don't know what that means. I've never taken an acting class at all.

I was a biology major. I, you know, I don't know what any of this is. And as I'm talking to them on break, it's like, I have nothing in common with these people. I don't fit. I don't know. I don't think this is going to work out for me. I don't think I will be an actor. And I was deciding whether or not to go to the second class, honestly, and went, just go.

Okay. I was a little late, and they were already up on the stage, and I didn't want to, you know, interfere. And there was a new guy who's really tall with red hair, and now they're doing special. baseball, where you, you know, act like you're throwing a ball and the different emotional adjustments. And he was just doing it. And he wasn't getting grr angry. He just looked angry. And she was like, good commitment. I went, that's what commitment means. I can do that. And that's not embarrassing. He's fully going for it. And I am not embarrassed for him. I can do that. I'm going to stick with him. And the minute it was done, I made a beeline for him.

Hi, I'm Lisa, and you went, oh, hey, I'm Conan, and we were best friends. That's so sweet. I like knowing that you guys are your friends like that. That's really cute. Speaking of friends, you were unmad about you as Ursula first, and then you were Phoebe on Friends. And I'm just wondering, at what point did they decide that Phoebe and Ursula should be twins? Like, how did that come about? Because it just seems so random, but also really cool.

Well, yeah, it was great. So I, you, I was waitress on Mad About You, and she didn't have a name yet. And I was about to like, okay, now I need a day job because I now don't have enough money and acting isn't really working out for me, I think. And the guy who ran Mad About You, Danny Jacobson, he said, you're really funny. Is it okay with you if I put you in five more episodes? and you come back. I was like, is it okay with me? Oh, my God.

Yes, that's the best show. Oh, my God. I was so excited. And then, you know, I auditioned for friends because I was available. I was only a recurring role on Matt about you. And I got it both on NBC, and that's why I liked Friends. I also was going to go to the network for a show that was on Fox. And I went, no, no, definitely the NBC show.

And everyone seems to love it. So that's great. And, you know, the script. And then I can still do Mad About You, because that was my goal, was protecting Mad About You. So I've been already a recurring character on Mad About You. And then they named Ursula, and I do friends, and it gets picked up. And after it got picked up, and they also put us on right after Mad About You.

So I think Mad About You, and I don't know who spoke with who, because they were different studios, but it was decided that, I still get to be a recurring character on Mad About You. And then Friends needs to address the fact that the exact same human being is on a half hour later sometimes. So I think that's how it happened. I don't know what the discussions were with Marta and David and the Mad About You People. So like most people, I think, alive, Friends was my favorite show. Growing up, we watched it as a family.

I don't think I've ever watched any show more than I've watched Friends. It's like a comfort show. Phoebe was always my favorite character Oh! And at this week, yeah, always. Yes, I was. Obviously. As it should be.

For what it's worth, it's true for me too. Really? Yeah, you were my favorite character. Obviously, the writing is incredible. The cast chemistry is incredible. But I feel like the secret ingredient that made Friends different is Phoebe. I feel like there's no character like her

on any other show. And I feel like when Friends came out and it was so successful, many people tried to replicate like the Ditsy Blonde and no one did it. And I've thought about why, because Penn and I have a production company, and we look to develop some comedy. So I do think about comedies and I study them. And I really feel like, oh, it's because there's only one Lisa Kudrow.

Like, I just don't think anyone else could have pulled off that character. And now meeting you today, I think it's because you're so smart. Like, I think casting someone so smart to play that character is the only way that she could have been both ditsy and have these like pockets of brilliance and be so believable. So I just wanted to give you credit for, I think, being like, the best female character in the canon of comedy. Well, thank you. Oh, my God. What do you think made Phoebe so special, though? Yeah, I don't know.

And I just had a, I think I had like a good take on her. You know, the audition was this monologue sort of that was in the pilot where, you know, Rachel's cutting up credit cards and Phoebe. I don't remember it, but it was something around, well, you know, like my mom killed herself and then I was living with this guy in his car. And, you know, and then he died. You know, something like that. I had a friend in college who, you know, had a tough time, you know, like had to leave college and then worked in a nursing home. And her take was always like, and it was like, you're working in a nursing home. Oh, that's so depressing. Yes, well, you know, there's some nice people there

in this one woman. Martha, so funny. And, you know, it's always a mess. And she just had these, like, charm, like, everything was okay. And it was all like, you know, as you do was sort of, her take on everything like as we all know you know when you work in a nursing home you do it this way and I was like what no I don't know so I've brought that to Phoebe just that mindset that was like you know as we all know when your mother kills herself and then as it goes and the guy you're living with in his car of course is you know but without that sort of dialect. But yeah, that was the sensibility.

I just, I think it's really funny if she thinks like, well, you have all, you all know what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's like seemingly simple, but makes all the difference. It does, yeah. We recently had a guest who was a co-star of Penn's on Gossip Girl, and he talked about when that show

ended. Who shall remain nameless. Chase Crawford. We recently had Chase Crawford on the show. And he talked about the ending of Gossip Girl being like an athlete sort of having an injury, and his career just being over from one day to the next, even though his career wasn't over, but it felt like that.

It was so jarring. And I'm just wondering what the end of friends was like for you and your sense of self and identity. Oh, well, I mean, I think we all just, in a very healthy way, just mourned the goodbye to these people. You know, I mean, I don't know if, you know, but every year we weren't sure if we were going to be coming back. Really?

Well, because of the cast. deciding whether or not we wanted to come back because people were getting like different opportunities and stuff and, you know, so I know there was more than one season before that where I actually, the last day of, you know, season eight or seven, whatever it was, I was driving home and I burst into tears because I was really going to miss Phoebe. Oh, wow.

I was just going to miss being her, inhabiting her. I was going to just miss her and cried. So, yeah, and then when we knew we were going to, to be done. It was, okay, we are definitely going to be done. And it's, you know, coping. But we cried. We cried that night. It was a lot of boohooing, you know. But then it was also, okay. And so it's time to move on because we have to move on. And so it's right. Whatever's happening. Okay, so this is right. There's no choice. Make it okay. I'm thinking about the friends reunion that happened during the pandemic. That was huge, like a huge production. I've never seen anything like that for any other

show. I loved it. But I did wonder what it felt like for you all as the cast. Like, does it feel good and nostalgic to go back to that place? Or does it feel like, okay, it's over? It felt great and nostalgic to go back to that place. I mean, the six of us had only ever been in a room together after the show, you know, like five years before that for one dinner at Jennifer's house. And that was heaven. I mean, it was as if no time had passed and that was great. And so we were really looking forward to that. And it's neat that the sets were there and all of that. To me, I didn't care about the sets. I cared about seeing the people. That's what was exciting to me. And it was great and it was so well done. You know, the other thing that we all had people coming up to us

here and there over the many years, you know, who would say, oh, that it was really important to me during a hard time in my life and thank you and all of that. It's like, oh, that's nice, you know, here and there. I guess there's a person, you know, that it was beneficial to. But when we sat down and he showed us all, like from around the world, these different testimonials, and there were a few more than what made it into the, you know, the final cut, we were a wreck. We were sobbing. We were so moved and you know and it's not

just true for friends that's what entertainment does that's true yeah I used to feel like well all right I mean we're just you know

entertainers we're not curing cancer over here we're not curing cancer but but we are yeah and it's an important escape headline Lisa Kudrow thinks

entertainers are curing cancer I mean no no one is cheering can so thank you so much I didn't say that I didn't say that but it is it's a great mental health break you know and then wait i'm sorry i'm going to tell you something else you can cut it no tell us everything you know now i'm just wasting your time because you've got

to direct your show but so after 9-11 you know everyone was it was shut down for two weeks and um and you're just watching CNN or you're just watching news all day long and it's all about you know what happened on 9-11. And I remember I was watching Will and Grace was on. I went, oh, okay. And automatically thought, oh, this takes place in New York. Oh, God, I wonder if they knew anyone in the towers. And then went, no, no, that's, you know, this was shot before 9-11. It didn't happen yet in this episode. And then I realized, no. It's not going to. It's not going to. This is a world where that didn't happen. And it was such a relief.

And then when we were, you know, back to work and I would drive home, I used to drive home and people would pull up next to me at a line and go, ah, hey. And now people would pull up next to me and look over and just go, about to cry. And I knew exactly what they were talking about because I experienced the same thing, you know, watching Will and Grace. And then it struck me like, it's not unimportant entertainment. Chame it. People need a break. Yeah. They do need a break.

Especially something as feel good as friends. Yeah. You know, before we go, this is a bit of a non-sequit, or maybe we can take it out or place it at the end. I do, I don't want any, I don't want the interview to pass without saying that your performance and the comeback is genuinely, I think, one of

the best performances I've seen came out, I think, at a moment that I was particularly receptive to it and it just, yeah, I thought you were like kind of breathtaking, you know, Oh, thank you. That means a lot. Thank you.

I think I'm the most proud of that than anything. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it really is incredible. I mean, it's beautiful. Lisa, we have one question that we ask everybody at the end of the interview. Okay. If you could go back to 12-year-old Lisa and say one thing, have a moment with her. What would you want to say?

Oh, dear. The people are mean because of what they're going through. Don't take it in. It's nothing to do with you. You're still allowed to like yourself. You really are. Well, thank you so much. It's so wonderful to have you, Lisa.

Yes, it was so nice. It was not a disappointment at the beginning you said it would be, and it was the opposite. No, but I was so heavy, heavy. Oh, that's great. We love heavy. We love heavy. Up next, Penn reads today's listener-submitted middle school story. Stick around.

I grew up in a little school story. a small town about an hour south of Philadelphia called M-M-A-O-S. M-M-A-O-S. Note to listener, I don't know how to pronounce this. Anyway, moving on. In 2015, when I was in eighth grade, I was assigned a new lab partner in science, a troubled skater boy named Oz. To be honest, Oz completely scared me, but I knew he had troubles at home and probably just needed a few friends. At the time, I also I needed some friends. A few weeks after studying together as lab partners, Oz was waiting for me outside my house,

except I never told him where I lived. When I asked why he was waiting for me, he just asked if we could hang out. I was completely terrified of boys, especially of Oz. I cried out, no, you have to go home. The next day at school, I asked him how he knew where I lived. I saw your address on a letter you sent. He replied, which really scared me.

I did want boys to like me, but not boys that scared me. So a week passes. And one day I walked home from school from my bus stop like usual. I ate. Then immediately I took a nap. And my mom wakes me up. Honey, she said, someone is at the door for you. It was Oz.

By then I had a sick feeling and was legitimately scared. I told him he needed to leave. That did not make him happy. He literally ripped out a chunk of the sidewalk and threw it on the ground, smashing it into a million pieces and walked away. I was horrified. That week, in science class,

it was my turn to present a PowerPoint slide all about the water cycle, so I got up and began presenting. When I clicked to go to the second slide, all of my work had been deleted. In its place was a message for me. I can't wait to see your face when you read this, dumb bitch. I stood there, humiliated in front of my entire class.

After some investigating, the school confirmed that Oz had hacked into my project and hijacked it with his message. Where is Oz now? Jail for pistol whipping someone. I guess the lesson here is trust your intuition. You can catch Lisa in her animated series Housebroken and new episodes of Who Do You Think You Are are available on Hulu and Peacock. You can also just follow her online at Lisa Kudrow.

Podcrush is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navakavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer and editor is David Ansari. Our secondary editor is Sharaf and Twistle. Special thanks to Peter Clowney, VP of Content at Stitcher, Eric Eddings, Director of Lifestyle Programming at Stitcher, Jared O'Connell and Brendan Brines for the tech support, and Shruti Marante, who transcribes our tape.

Podcrush was created by Navakavalin and is executive produced by Penn Badgley and Navakaval and produced by Sophie Ansari. This podcast is a 9th mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcresh. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcrush.com and give us every detail. And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials. It's at Pod Crush, spelled how it sounds. And our personals are at Penn Badgley, at NAVA. That's NAVA with three ends.

And at Scribble by Sophie. And we're out. See you next week. I'm doing too many things at once. Uh-oh. Yeah, that's really, uh... Well, you know, we've got to make hay. as they say

you do yeah you gotta make hay when the sun's shining what expression make hay you gotta make hay

when the sun shines or something Stitcher Stitcher