Podcrushed - Lola Kirke

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

Lola Kirke -- the actor and musician known for Mozart In The Jungle, Gone Girl, and her recent role in Sinners -- joins the hosts to discuss her fascinating upbringing in a family she describes as 'wolves,' her journey into country music, and the challenges of balancing an acting and music career. She also shares candid stories of growing up around rock stars, and spills the tea on what it's like to be Penn's sister-in-law. (Seriously, she's Penn's sister-in-law).  Podcrushed listeners can grab Rosetta Stone’s LIFETIME Membership for 50% OFF at https://rosettastone.com/podcrushed. That’s unlimited access to 25 language courses, for life! Go to https://airalo.com and use code PODCRUSHED for 15% off your first eSIM. Terms apply.  Check out our new book CRUSHMORE, out now! https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993 🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I will say that I'm almost surprised by how much whatever room you're in looks like it was at least in part decorated by your mother. Well, Penn, I think that you will be not surprised to learn that I'm at her house. Oh, because I was like, I was like, what on earth? Damn, she really, really is picking it up. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Sophie, and I'm Nava, and I think we would have been your middle school besties. Publicly saying you love nine-inch nails, but privately feeling like they're just a little bit too intense. Hello, and welcome to Podcrushed. I am joined by my co-hosts, Nava, and Sophie. I'm not going to give you the last name, because if you're here, you probably know them. You know them so well, because you come here just to feel like you're part of the gang. You know what I mean? And you are. We love you.

Yeah. Okay, so today's guest is Lola Kirk and Penn's sister-in-law. So delightful. One thing she talks about in her book really early on is she describes her family as wolves which I thought was really cool and it made me curious what animal do you guys identify with? Great question.

I've always wanted to be a dolphin like unironically true true desire as a child's like honest like a real desire to be a dolphin not a whale yeah because dolphins are so acrobatic like a whale's slow why would you I mean what do you get from being a whale because dolphins are kind of known as being like annoying

you know that right Sophie wants to make sure you know that. You said that like suddenly you became my sister and you were like, hey, dweeb. Not a coincidence. Just so you know. I have swam with both whales and dolphins and dolphins. Here's what I've heard.

Is that dolphins literally can like dissuade sharks from attacking other animals and they're buoyant and funny and acrobatic and live and they swim through the water really fast and they flip. They're kind of like vengeful, though. Dolphins are vengeful. You're making that up. That's all I can say.

That's chat GPT right there. That is not true facts. No, it's not true. No, it's not true. It's not, no, whales are vengeful. You're getting it mixed up chat. I don't remember where I learned it broke out. Just like chat GPT.

Her snapple fact of the day was dolphins are vengeful. My answer is so boring, but I really identify with a cat. I think also because I've lived alone for so long and cats are really independent. I know incredibly boring but that is the truth I identify with cats Also you are so not a cat person No I love cats

I the only reason I for a long time loved cats more than dogs The only reason I don't have a pet cat is because my sister is so deathly allergic that every time she came to visit me It would be a huge problem Otherwise I would have a cat

I love them I also love dogs But yeah Interesting You know yeah you just strike me as such a dog person Because of how much you love your dogs Yeah The only thing that is coming to mind

Is I'm actually when you're asked that question have I was brought back transported to my friend Nico Millington's basement in high school where we would hang out a lot and there were a few guys in the great above me who likened me to a Cocker Spaniel they were like you kind of look like a dog and you look specifically like a Cocker Spaniel I had like short curly hair and I hated it and there was one day where we were watching a film in his basement and a dog came up and was barking and Sam Bernier-Cormier is his name.

What a name. Yeah. Turned to me and was like, what did he say? And I was so insulted. I've never forgotten it. That's wild. That's the, a Cocker Spaniel is the animal I identify with, but not by choice. Wow.

Oh, wow. That's, wow. So that's why you got so spicy when this question came up. She was treated. You went right to at Bernier-Cormier. Yeah. I think of it off the rails. My sister-in-law is the guest today.

No, Lola is really, she's an interesting figure in the world of entertainment because she's, if you know of her, you probably love her. She's not only a successful musician, but she's been an actress for quite a while now and really been a part of some kind of like huge projects. She's worked with some of the best directors of our age. Most recently, you would have seen her in sinners as one of the white vampires,

which is, you know, I mean, it's a weird way to define somebody, but it really makes sense for the film. And she does a lot of singing, and she's a nasty, gnarly, gnarly figure in that film. And it was, for me, personally, it was great to see her that way, because that's not how she presents in real life at all.

She's also got a blossoming literary career. Her book, Wild West Village, is out now on hard cover and out in soft cover in January. Let's get to these ads so we can get on to the show. We will be right back. If you have got travel coming up, visiting family, heading abroad, maybe, or maybe you've got a dream trip for the new year, imagine feeling confident greeting people where you're going in their own language, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to feel more connected and have a richer

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I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English, and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start, naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that. I love how their true accent feature gives real-time feedback on my pronunciation. It's helping me feel a little bit more confident, and sometimes a lot more confident in my Spanish-speaking abilities. Don't wait.

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That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash podcrush and enter code Podcrush to get 60% off your first box. Lola, love your memoir. incredible, such an easy, fun read. And something that struck me in the introduction is that you describe your family as exceptionally good-looking wolves, some of whom you might not want to meet alone at night. And so I was curious if you were to drop into the Kirk household at 12. How literal is that? Like, what would we see? Was the family chaotic, glamorous territorial? Like, what's the vibe in the Kirk household? All of the above chaotic, glamorous territorial. But I mean, I think

that the thing, I feel like wolves are like really hip. You know, there was like a while back where it was like a turn where it was like if you had like a wolf on your t-shirt like it meant you were cool. So like it is a compliment when I say that they are wolves. That's true. Also when they were reintroduced back into

the like Yosemite National Park or whatever it like rebuilt the river blah blah blah. Remember that whole thing? Do you guys know what I'm talking about? No. Oh yeah. I think I don't know where you're talking about. Just like every other time you open your mouth on this podcast. Yeah. is I literally know nothing about how anything works.

Like, I didn't know that wolves, like, had a purpose, but I did know that they looked great. And I feel like that says a lot. That makes sense. So do you consider yourself part of the wolf pack? Sort of you have those same traits or a little bit more of an outsider? I feel like an outsider. I feel like I'm, like, really boring, have no personality and totally approachable.

But I feel like maybe other people might not be. feel that way about me. My sense of self is typically off. And thank God, because I mean, actually, I don't know, but I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but I think a lot of, like, bad things about me, and then I'll, like, go to my expensive therapist who reminds me of pen, and I'll say those things, and expensive therapist who reminds me of pen will say, um, no, those aren't, those aren't true about you. So I don't, I don't know, but I grew up definitely feeling different from members of my family. And I think as I've gotten older, I'm like humbled to be like, oh, all of those things that, like, I wanted to have in common with them, like,

I sort of do. And all of the things that I wanted to be different from them, like, I'm not that different. So that's been a big part of my growing up process. Well, I will say that I'm almost surprised by how much, whatever room you're in looks like it was at least in part decorated by your mother. Well, Ken, I think that you will be a not-spice to learn that I'm at her house. Oh, because I was like, what on earth? Damn, she really, really is

picking it up. And then you have this sweater over your shoulders and I'm like, she's turning into her mother. Well, the very sweet thing about our mom is that despite us not living with her anymore, she has, like, designated rooms in her house. That's true. For us? For each of you? And my My room, like, remains, like, this, like, the plainest, smallest one, which I think is in line with what I was kind of saying about, you know, my sense of self and being different from the family.

Like, I've always had, like, the little child's room that's, like, she's not really, like, when we first moved to America from London, we moved to New York, and I have this bedroom that was, like, I think it was a closet. And I was proud of that room in a lot of ways. How old were you? And it overlooked, oh, five. Yeah, I was going to say, because you strike me actually as the only American of the family. That may be the difference. I've heard Penn say that about you.

Yes, and like, I love America. No, you are. Like, I actually, for instance, like Domino, your oldest sister, my wife, for anybody who's not aware, she's an interesting blend of British and American Because when you guys moved here, she was 12. So, like, some of that formative, like, British cynicism,

she definitely doesn't have. Right. You know, but then, interestingly, your sister, Jemima, your sister Jemima is very British, although she's younger than Domino, you know? There's, like, your sister, to me, seems resolutely British the same way your mother and father do. That is very interesting.

Totally. Right? Well, I think coming back to this idea of being an outsider, Like, it served our purposes to kind of adapt to the culture we moved into in different ways. Like, for me, adapting into American culture was a way of not being, like, bullied at school, though it certainly meant I was, like, bullied at home when I'd come home and be like, I say water now instead of water and butter instead of butter, because you can't, like, get away with that. But I think that for my sisters, I think Domino definitely wanted to, like, assist.

a little bit more. But I feel like Jamima's whole vibe is like, I don't assimilate. Totally, yeah. So she retained it. I mean, it's all,

you know, it's just, it's all survival skills and trauma responses with us, really. Yeah. You've referenced feeling like an outsider

and I feel like that comes through really strongly in the book. Like I, as I'm reading, I'm like, oh, I feel so much like longing from Lola,

like longing to be witnessed by her sisters. Like in different ways, it seems like maybe it was harder for you to connect with them for different reasons. And I'm curious

if you can tell a little bit about your relationship with each sister as you're growing up. Domino was, she's eight years older than me. And so much, I mean, so much of both of my relationship with both my sisters was just like watching.

Like, I think when you're the youngest child and kind of by a lot, you're just like, no one really wants to hear from you. And I get it. Like, kids are boring. So, yeah. But, no, I'm just, but but I just spent like so much time watching them and Domino

Domino was a lot like sweeter to me when we were kids because I think the gap was like so much bigger that I was just like really you know a non-threatening entity also I realize for older children that this weird thing happens where like you're you were the youngest and then you're like dethroned like I guess Penn and I have both never really experienced that. So I think that that's, by the time I came along, Domino was, like, so used to being

not the baby anymore that, like, it was, like, old news. Jemima, on the other hand, was a total bully. But, and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Like, I just, like, did everything that she did, which obviously, you know, was the opposite of how to win, you know, her affection, because then I just annoyed her. but I didn't know that. And I think that she, I think Jemima would have really liked

being the youngest child at a certain way. That's interesting. That is really interesting. But I ruined that for her. Well, you did come so much. You were very unexpected, weren't you? I was, well, I mean, you know,

my mom actually did have a few pregnancies not to term between me and Jemima, which is, hence the age difference. But I mean, The way I looked, I was a very scary-looking baby, so that was unexpected. You know what? You look like, I just realized when I, when you were describing, when I was reading your book and you're describing yourself as an infant. Well, first of all, I've seen the pictures and it's funny how much you look like, you look at this surprised.

It's true. You're kind of making fun of yourself mercilessly, but there's something about it that is accurate where you look particularly. Everything you thought about yourself is very funny. You know, it is funny. But you look, I didn't, I hadn't connected it. There is one of our twins looks like you. Oh my God. Yes, very much.

That's sweet. Very, very much. I'm coming over tomorrow, by the way. I'm not sure if you're aware of this. I'm very excited to see this development. Cute. Also funny that only one of them looks like her, but they're identical. Well, it is amazing.

They are. They are, but they really do. You know what it is? And you guys might find this just when you're looking at infants, but you only see it in certain expressions. It's not like they have resting face that looks like everyone else. It's like they do something and you're like, oh, whoa, that's, you know, so and so. And straight up, our baby B, I'm not using their names yet publicly.

I would say subject B, subject A and subject B. Exhibit A and subject B. You talk, speaking of baby pictures, you talk in their book about, like, you're going through these different pictures of you and these funny captions that are like very plain. And then you tell us that you actually wrote those captions because you had to like insert yourself into the family memories, which I thought was so funny. I'm also a youngest child and I still feel, I'm like still reckoning with it. I love being the youngest child. I feel like it is the superior birth order. But there's a lot that I'm...

Superior. Superior is a strong word to use. Yeah, elite. We're all youngest children, by the way. Elite. It's the elite position. All four of us. Well, this makes so much sense. Okay.

So I was curious, it sounds like there are some vestiges of that in like you have the plainest room in your mother's house still. But how else do you see your young. child position, like, coming up in your life as an adult? Well, you know, I had the most incredible experience with my mom this morning where last night we watched a really triggering movie with Diane Keaton in it. Shoot the moon. Don't watch it with your parents, I would say, especially if your parents got divorced. Just don't do it.

But I got, I kind of, I was really underslept because I had taken a red eye the night before. And I got upset with her and I said, you know, because I, I was. I thought that her allegiance was with one of the characters in the movie that moralistically, I was like, you should not align yourself with that person. And she did this, like, incredible thing, which she was like, okay, I hear you. But can I come back to you and talk about this later? And I was like, what the hell is going on? Like, who is this emotionally?

Lerraine. Just, like, killing it. She's seeing your therapist. That's growth right there. That's plasticity in the latter half of life. Yeah, she's putting it to good use. This morning, I, like, went to talk to her, and I'd never thought this would happen in my life because I was like, I shouldn't have, I have a great relationship with my mom in so many ways.

Like, I don't need her to apologize for everything that happened. Like, that's icing on the cake of anything. Like, we can have a good relationship in the present because there's a lot of amazing stuff that my mom can do. But this morning, she, like, was like, hi, I'd like to read you. this letter that I wrote you last night and it was so sweet and I apologized, it was like really accountable and responsible. One of the things that she

said was like, you know, I never gave your feelings any spotlight growing up. And I was like, oh, like I always knew that my feeling of being unseen growing up led me to not one,

not two, but three careers in which I'm like, see me, please, see me, please. I have so much to say me, please. Please. But she, like, nailed it. The word. Maybe she asked Chad D.C. If I were a mother. If I were a mother, to a daughter who has multiple careers that need so much attention.

So, yes, I think my desire to be seen was fueled by feeling very unseen as a child. But I don't think that that's just, you know, if that's the only reason that we would, want to make art, then I think, or, you know, I think that that's more the career of like an influencer. I feel like if you, when you want to make art, you don't just want to be seen, but you want other people to feel seen too. There's like this wonderful Joni Mitchell quote, which is like, people don't come to hear my music to hear about me. They come to hear about them. And I think it's through the kind of specificity of writing about our own experiences, which you all have just done and you know so brilliantly but through that the people get to really be like

oh yeah i i dance to like an in sync video in my house to a tea because i thought everyone would be like so wowed but i don't know the more specific you are i think the more universal we can be so so yeah actually the back cover of your book is a picture that you're that you that you reference in the opening chapters as well um and this is really a time of your life for instance Like I didn't know anything about this period of your life at all. It's interesting that you, that you, from what I can gather, you sort of, you speak about, you're entering middle school-ish, let's say 11, 12, and you're just starting to, you know, you speak humorously about getting headshots.

Yeah. And you are, you know, I guess you have an agent. you're you're starting to pursue um one of the performing arts that was expected in your family of all the girls evidently yeah and uh that i did know i did know that you were all sort of loosely expected to just be to be successful artists um no pressure but uh but and it sounds like by the end of middle school a few short years later you are screen testing for a role that eventually christin stewart got and um and then you're also So, you know, you're, I didn't quite get how you're being asked to be photographed for Teen Vogue.

But it sounds like, you know, at least from a middle schoolist's perspective, from a 13 or 14th year's perspective, you're really starting to become professional. And I'm just curious about that arc, those few years. Like, what did that, what did day-to-day life feel like then for you? What was it, you know, because there are so many eccentricities I'm aware of in the family, but then you going through middle school, your sisters are basically kind of gone at this. point right like totally yeah um well i think what's become very clear to me as i've gotten older and experienced like the ebbs and flows of a career when you're lucky to have one is that um none of that should be taken for granted and i think as a kid like it's funny that you would be like you were in teen vogue that was kind of like a professional moment to me i'm like that was just tuesday

Like everyone was in Everyone I knew was like Fabulous and in Teen Vogue And it is crazy I mean it is crazy Like your family I just When I got into you

I didn't know I really didn't know And then the longer I know your family I went oh my God You guys know everybody It is really phenomenal And everybody that's like Actually like cool

Yeah I don't know It's something that I feel like I haven't like read about or seen much of in like represented in culture which is like

it's not just about like you know affluent New Yorkers because I feel like that's like succession like we've seen shows about like wealthy people on the upper east side but like that downtown art world where like it is something

that I think deserves a closer look especially because I don't think that that's being that that can ever exist again. I think exorbitant wealth and cultural elite will exist always and be crazy. I mean, maybe not always.

But I think that that particular world like indie slees, that generation of people who went to Studio 54 and then became parents, it's kind of crazy. Like, I don't know that the world is too like corporatized

now, I think, to understand. understand that. And also like kind of the first generation of kids with rock star parents or parents that were in that world. And that's why, you know, it was the Wild West. Like these people were like professional hot young people. That was like part of their job. And then they became like parents and they had kids that, you know, looked pretty good because they were all beautiful and and they were artistic and creative, and I think raising those kids into adults

was really, like, challenging for them because I think a lot of those people came from much more traditional backgrounds as well. Lola, just... Like, they weren't raised by rock stars. Just for people who don't know, can you just quickly tell us who your mom and dad are,

like what they did to give this context? So my dad was the drummer and founding member of two bands called Free, which was a 60s band, big like blues rock English band and their big song was all right now and then he

also founded and played drums for a band called Dad Company who were just inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame which is pretty cool and their big song was bad company from the album Bad Company. Just in case you didn't know

and then my mom is a wonderful woman named Lorraine Kirk and she had this amazing vintage store on Perry Street in the West Village called Geminola, which Geminola, fun fact, was a hybrid of me, Gemima, and Domino's names, and our brother, Greg. And Greg is my, you know, the reason his name is different is because he has a different biological dad than us. but my mom kind of paid homage to him in that by making it a G that started Gennola and then when my dad, my dad's musician obviously

and he had a music publishing company and you have to pick your name for that and I always thought it was really funny because he chose to name it Gremlinola which just must not have the same ring to it it like takes just like cute like you know for Vonto of sorts and makes it sound like a gremlin.

Yeah. Gremlin and granola. Sort of, yeah. Yeah, Gremlinola. So, yeah, those were what my parents. And the world around us was just like, I think it's so interesting to hear you say Penn, like, oh, they just expected you to be successful artists because, like, I didn't even realize it was as simple as that.

Like, they didn't expect us to be like, you know, just like creative people. Like, it was like, no, you know, you. you're going to grow up and you're going to be successful in your field. And so I really took that for granted. And I was really lucky that it did work out for me and has in so many ways. But when I first, I experienced my first, like, lull in my career five years ago. And, like, that humbling has been one of the most valuable things I have ever experienced. Not learning how to take things for granted, discovering hidden talents and passions and, like, part of who I really am that aren't connected to who I should be in the world.

Getting to live in a city that I never thought of living in, which is Nashville and not New York or L.A., which is obviously an industry town of its own, but I'm kind of like, yeah, sure, but it's not really. No, of course it is. But to me, it's like, you know, I get to live somewhere very interesting. Stick around. We'll be right back. Okay, I'll be honest with you. There are some things where there's areas in my life where I still find it hard to truly adult. You know, go full adult mode.

I may have four children. I may never feel like an adult. We'll see. One of the things that I never do is set up a plan when I'm traveling to a foreign country so that I have service when I land. It's almost, it's comical. It's terrible. it's really frustrating and to be honest the last several years considering how many children I have the only time I travel is for work for like maybe say an event you know and I land and I've really got

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So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I'm curious what your, what hidden passions you learned about in this lull that you had five years ago. Well, frankly, writing. Writing was something that I had never, I thought I was like a bad writer. because I couldn't do grammar. I couldn't do grammar.

I'm still bad at grammar. But I had been told that I was like a good storyteller. And I always accredited that to, you know, how many martinis I'd had at whatever party. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I can talk forever. But people, like, would listen to me when I told stories. And then COVID hit and the kind of career that I had been put. building for myself for the decade prior began to slowly get pulled away from me. And I think so many creative people during that time started writing because it was the way that you could express

yourself safely. And ultimately, it's funny to say safely because ultimately it was one of the riskiest and most unsafe things I've ever done is start to write authentically about my life and experiences um but that was certainly one of them and and also committing more to playing music i'd been playing music um whenever i wasn't making a movie or shooting a show and um i don't know if this is similar to your experience pen but it was like as a as a actress i was treated one way like i'd get like flown first class to can to get this like made up award and then like i would fly back and, like, take a connecting flight to Eugene, Oregon, and get picked up in, like, a dented rav for and play concerts for literally no one, like, up and down the coast.

Like, no one, I had no value as a musician other than, like, this is what I like to do. And then I had all this, like, kind of mystifying value as an actress. And I'm really glad that that got, it's been humbling. and humiliating at times and I think being an artist is humiliating when it's not humbling because there's so much rejection involved in it

but like learning how arbitrary that kind of value is when it's placed on you when you're doing well also like something I have experienced so much as an actress or experienced so much as an actress

when I was younger was this like she's the next big thing and then when they realized that like you're not the next big thing Yeah, they're just like, she can have a much smaller trend. Yeah, we'll put her in the honey wagon, you know? Like, it's just like they take, I don't know, it's really funny to watch people invest in you

and then see when they stop doing that. And I think that there's so much infantilization that goes into the way we treat actors in the world anyway. And a lot of that is like by necessity, like they'll financially be screwed if, you know, the actor disappears and gets lost. So they send people to the bathroom with you. They have someone pick you up.

They have someone get you lunch. Like, all of this stuff that, like, makes you into this little kid again and can kind of spoil you. But I think is really there just as a reminder that, like, you, you know, you got to behave. They need you. They need you to be there. And that's why it's there. because of how special you are, really.

It's because of how important you are to the financial health of the project that you're on. In your family, beauty was like not just like a North Star, but a value system that informed everything. And within that maybe some pressure on weight and what really stands out to me

is the story of like, well, I want you to tell it, but the prop on the dining room table that you guys would have to stare at. So if you could tell us about... Yeah, that was a new one, by the way. And Domino never holds back and telling me stories.

You know, she hasn't written a book, But, like, I know a lot. I've never heard that. I was like, what? On top of all of it? Wow. I think Domino was on a private jet at that point with a movie star. Okay.

Right. Yes. Sorry, Ben. So maybe she wasn't pretty to the 10-pound replica of fat. That was the centerpiece of our dining room table. Which, honestly, like, as disturbing as that is, I'm like, it's incredible. That is, like, so amazing. Do you remember when it appeared?

Do you remember, like, the first time it appeared? No, but I remember there was humor around it. Like, it was ridiculous. I remember, like, my dad, like, throwing it once, like, it was a football or something. Because it was, like, football shaped. Yeah. But, I don't know. I mean, I definitely went from a beauty-conscious household into beauty-conscious industries.

And I think through that, like, for a while I was like, God damn it. Like, I found myself in a, in an industry that just, like, mimicked the value system of this household that, that, that, I'm part of that value system that was really painful for me. And then I realized, no, my family just mimicked those, those values. Like, that's the world. And as I have, you know, gotten older and, and realized, oh, I don't know, I'm reading a lot of Pema Shodron right now. And by a lot, I mean, I have this one tiny book that's like Femishodrome for Dummies. Buddhism for the total idiot. But she talks about how, like, the desire for self-improvement is a form of aggression towards ourselves.

And I have such an aggressive, internalized dialogue with myself about my body. And I was listening to a wonderful podcast with one of the alumn from your show, Julie Dreyfus, and she was interviewing Bonnie Rate. And Bonnie Rate is a hero of mine. She's so incredible, but something that she said was like, I'm pretty enough. And I was like, oh, wait, what? Like, we don't live in a culture where anyone is like, I've had enough beauty. Like, it's like we have this constant need now more than ever to like not only be beautiful, but to remain beautiful forever and like get suck as much beauty as you can out of being alive to the point where I think it's really actually an ugly, an ugliness, obviously that drives it.

But like beginning to shift my mindset to, and this will sound so ridiculous to people who have spent far more time being not vain in their lives, but like shifting my mindset to like I am put on this earth to be far more than just beautiful, like beautiful externally. is really where I'm trying to go because I'm only going to get older. I'm only going to keep weight on and wrinkle more. And like, if I live by an old value system, I am only going to hate myself forever. And I'm stuck with me. So I'm really just like, it blew my mind to just be like, to really say that to myself. I am on this earth to do more than just be pretty. Like, well, fuck. That. That. I don't want that's like I can't believe how many of us women and men too and everyone like kind of have that complicit silent agreement that like the whole point is to be pretty it's so besides I love your answer Lola I've been thinking about this a lot I don't know if you've seen there's a clip I don't know if you saw her in the moment or there's a clip of Emma Thompson

on a talk on a late night show and she's talking about um what a like she says it in a really funny way I'll send it to you but like what a waste of time is. it is for a woman to worry about her body and like how this is like so methodically planned so that women won't prosper in other ways because they just have to spend their lives hating their bodies and obsessing over their bodies. But she says it in sort of like a like a speech, like don't do that. And it's so encouraging. And sometimes if I like feel myself going down this dark rabbit hole, I'll like find that

clip and watch it. Because I love Emma Thompson and I'm like, she's so right. Like it's just such a waste of time and it diverts your energy from other things that will actually be meaningful to others, meaningful to yourself. It's just a body, you know? It's just a vehicle to get things done. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's just so important for public-facing women who are powerful to be articulating that. And not – because ultimately, I think what it comes down to is conforming to a societal norm that is indeed a toxic one. And I think the pressure to do so, or that's a tension in my life that I've been working through in various forms. Do I conform or not? Do I conform to my family's values? And if I do that, then I will be separating myself from the rest of society or do I conform to society's values. And if I do that, then I'm separating myself from my family. It's this tension between, you know, authenticity and connection that I think is, is, so hard, and I think as an actor or any kind of performer, you know, your livelihood is largely connected to your appearance. And that's, I love all this. I know. Okay, Penn, I know. Everyone loves you even though you're so lovely. It literally, it is, but a great therapist. So good. But I don't know. I want to dispel that myth. I want to test. I want to test. actually, because as much as I worry about the way that I look, I never worry enough to really

do that much about it. Like, I can never really stick to a diet. I like working out. I like doing things that are connected to me not looking as beautiful as other people for pastimes. I won't name those allowed, but I'm sure anyone can guess what those are. And I know that if I started getting a little bit of Botox or a little bit of that, that I would just get on the, you know, the rabbit wheel. The hamster wheel. Yeah. The hamster wheel. And I do think for me, and I think for a lot of people, it's a bandage on a bullet wound.

I think getting to know ourselves better and appreciating, you know, who we really are in a more authentic way is going to be a far more. worthwhile investment than constantly trying to just erase who we really are a little bit at a time. So that, and that's, I think, you know, that's what I want to do in every facet of what I do, whether I'm making music or I'm writing or I'm acting. And that's hard. I've just done two movies in a row and I'll see the monitor and I'm like, who's that? I mean, I just played a principal in a movie of like an alternative school, which was not much unlike the school I went to, but an alternative school back in the 90s. And it was like the first time that I was like a senior member of the cast. Like normally I'm the youngest, everywhere I go, even though I'm 35. And it was like really interesting to be like, oh, I look like I'm older than

these people. It's my kind of responsibility and duty to be mature and kind of like guide younger actors. You weren't the baby. I wasn't the baby. And how did that feel? You know, for the most part it felt awesome. And they were awesome, awesome kids. And a lot of them weren't kids. You know, they're like 21, but that's still a kid. That's a kid. That's a kid, that's a kid, but not technically kids um and and humbling and like seeing the 90s were such a dowdy period in general for fashion i love it but it like you know it's a lot of turtlenecks and loose fitting things and it it it's not like um i mean i don't know obviously there's heroin cheek and all that all that uh complicated those complicated trends as well but i wasn't like thrilled i wasn't like this is the most beautiful i've

ever looked. And I think also as you get older as an actress, especially the ingenue, no longer being an ingenue is a really interesting thing. Like, the archetypes that are available to you as a woman and aging out

of certain ones of those and trying to find the power in that instead of just grieving it. Lola, this also makes me think of like an internet meme. I'm sorry, I keep referencing the internet. Random things I see on the internet, but that's been going around that I really like, which is there are only two options, growing old or growing weird. And I feel like that's really helpful.

Like when I feel tempted to like do a cosmetic procedure or anything, I'm like, growing old or growing weird, like which one, you know, I sometimes have a hard time watching shows because the women's faces look so weird to me that I can't. And I'm like, is that bad? Is that good? Like, is that a natural reaction? But, and when I do see an actress in her 40s, 50s and older who has lines on her face, feel relieved and like refreshed. And so I'm like grateful to the women who are resisting the pressure

and I understand not resisting that pressure, especially if you're in the industry. Like I'm not judging them. But when the faces start to get really weird, I have a hard time just looking at it and enjoying it. Yeah. Well, I just think that the issue is that we live in a society that doesn't value wisdom or maturity. We live in a society that has made youth into a commodity and values that above all else. And being young, I mean, it's hard. Being young breaks my heart. Like, something about working with teenagers just now were people playing teenagers and there were some actual teenagers there. Like, it was, it reminded me so much of my experience as a teenager, which was like, you know, you think you know everything, but everything you know is kind of

terrifying and wanting to be older, but also being so sad to leave your childhood behind. I mean, I wanted to be old and young at once as a teenager, and you are old and young at once. And that's a really scary place to be. Yeah, you speak about that moment from what I can recall where you're having a New Year's, like a resort in India with your family, and everybody's sleep but you and your father and you're peering out of the dark ocean and you're trying to make it special and and you you have this feeling that you probably couldn't name at the time but you're naming in retrospect that you felt some kind of anxiety about your your waning youth how how old was that was that 12 or 14 I think I was 12 or 13 in that part of the book and I'm so glad that that part

stuck with you because that's one of that was that's one of the less flashy moments I think the book, but I think it is an experience that a lot of people have or I imagine to some degree. And I'm like, and there's definitely like a Russian word for that feeling. Like, don't add. And they're like, oh yeah.

We have 13 words for that. Yeah. We have a word for that at 11. We have a word for that at 12. We have a word for that when it's happening in the winter. We have a word for that when it's happening in the summer in the morning.

Okay. There are a few, I feel like, you know, there are a few stories we'd planned on asking, you know, I don't know how much you feel like you want to retell them here because they're in the book and there is this matter of like, well, if it's there, go read the book, do you, do maybe, maybe not everybody's super happy about the way they represented or whatever. Yeah. But you do have one that I think remains pretty warm. You, you, you talk about being babysat by Liv Tyler, you know.

Yeah. possibly around when during she was shooting Lord of the Rings I don't know if that part's accurate she was literally shooting Lord of the Rings she was our neighbor across the street and I guess or when she was like back from New Zealand but for whatever reason she really liked us and liked us enough to hang out with us and you know what she was so special to me as a kid talk about an actress representing something, you know, like representing body positivity or whatever. But, like, I've always had, I've never had a flat stomach a day of my life.

Same. Guilty. Never once. Even when I was, like, so heartbroken and, like, thin in every other place of my body, I spill just had, like, I just didn't. I'm beginning to wonder if it's because my legs are, like, so long and my torso is really short. That, like, it just, like, won't work out for me. Anyway, Liv used to do this thing that, which I've never said out loud, but she used to, we had this game called Big Bellies of the World Unite, and she would, like, lift her shirt, and I would lift mine and we'd, like, run full speed ahead and then, like, rub our setting together. Oh, that's cute.

And it was really cute, and it made me feel, like, so cool. and I need to remember that now all the time maybe I have told that story before I don't know maybe it's even in the book I forget so much it is you're getting old so endearing I know I'd really forget things

but yeah she was a really positive influence on me especially at that time I'm curious in your process the book is so good I really love it you're an incredible writer and I was curious is how you went about mining your own memories for the writing process? Like, did you interview any of your family members to gather intel, or was it just all you? I did not interview anyone,

which I think that could be a fun, like, follow-up because one of the, one of the fallouts of this book, and my sisters were actually incredible about it. But there were other people that were very much, like, that's not my experience of what happened, which definitely, I was like, right, well, because it's my book, not your book. So it makes sense you have a different experience. And it's not a biography, it's a memoir, so it's a lot about memory. And that's a very subjective thing. But a lot of the stories that ended up in the book were the kind of, flag pole, tent poles of like what I felt like was my identity. Because that's what I think the book is ultimately very much about. It's about working through, sifting through larger than life

personalities and finding your authentic identity and an authentic self. So these were the stories I was already kind of just like telling over and over again and boring anyone that had heard them the first time. But they were stories that were already quite narratively formed in in my head. And then there were some where my editor would be like, you need to write about this. Otherwise, no one's going to care about your book. And I was like, really?

So then I would have to kind of, you know, pull something out of my ass there. No. But I think that I'm, I mean, I'm always so nauseated when actors are like, you know, I'm a storyteller, but I am a storyteller. That's what I do. And I'm already thinking quite narratively about things. And I think that, you know, You live a story every single, every single day.

If you know where to look, it's just a beginning, middle, and an end. And hopefully there's a punchline. I love a punchline. That's so true. I love, I'm going to start thinking about my life that way. Every day is a story. Yes. That's so nice.

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care of you. Visit betterhelp.com today for 10% off. Something you were saying earlier, Lola, after I'd remarked about how many people, you know, how even what, you know, I, an actor who'd been acting professionally for quite a while when I met your sister and met your family um i wasn't aware you know until kind of years in i was like wow this is these this family's really not just connected what i think is really interesting about your experience and what you're writing about which might have some of this universal um accessibility in its specificity is you know you you were just talking about um your parents being among an entire set of actual rock stars and let's be clear these were the rock star

as you're thinking of. They were people like Mick Jagger and David Bowie. Your father as a drummer was touring with Led Zeppelin and like the biggest bands of the day that time of the 60s, 70s and 80s so that by the 90s, literally

the biggest icons of Western culture are parents and a lot of them are living in New York and London. Just by facet of that, let's just be practical and sociological about it, right? So you actually happen to have this very, very narrow experience of being a family like alongside them seeing their kids grow up and naturally be

inclined towards the arts like the julian casablanca's thing you know total total trust fund kid and then also becomes one of the like icons of an era and which represents like the opposite of that you know what i mean like the strokes being this sort of grunge band it's like yeah well uh easy for them to say right or something along those lines because it also such a legitimate artist and and like sort of like literary almost icon of the times so I'm just thinking that

like when you describe the pressures that you felt and which I know somewhat intimately because of the way your sisters felt them specifically around body image what I'm thinking is that most people imagine if they had these things

the money the fame and the body that they would be happier and you grew up alongside all these families that actually not only had those things they were those people they were literally those people which represented those values to almost the world like a lot of them and so the chaos in these families yours was no exception you know I mean like in this small circle of families seems like chaos was the rule you know and what you see is have these values that you're saying that we need to free ourselves from I mean it's not even like your parents or these people it's like it's like without realizing it this is where this is

the transition where Hollywood and music modern art believed itself to be in a way like anti-establishment and bohemian and rebellious and realizing ah we actually represent the same old values just with a leather jacket on and sure right so you're like a part of a generation of like growing we are we're actually growing out of that because we're seeing what it does to people and significantly so all this kind of bringing it down into some specificity here with you and your family if I may I mean you speak about it very openly in the book

you're the only one of your sisters to not have an eating disorder to the point of needing and wanting you know rehabilitation of a kind and you do you and the same way that you're not you're sort of like the American of the family

and you know the probably the quickest to crack a joke or at least laugh at that joke too you know because of how British the rest of your family is I wonder if I wonder if you can think like what are some of the circumstances

you had being a bit younger that like what are some of the what are some of the things you can attribute that to like maybe not quite getting the is it maybe not getting the full weight of the same hammer from your parents because you were the baby

or was it just certain qualities you had or seeing what your sisters went through yeah i mean i think so much of it was the gift of having sisters who i mean ran boldly into the fire and being like well i don't want to get burned like that and and i think that uh like many people who grew up in chaos and dysfunction um i'm really good at knowing how other people should live their lives. That's just like a gift I have, let they only did this. And I think watching my sisters, like, struggle so much really honed that for me. And I don't know who I would have been if I didn't have them. In a way, I'm like, the rebellion was almost selfless as an act. It was like an act of love

for me to witness. So I think that there's that nurturing part of it. And also, I don't know, I think that there's nature too. I also think having such a big age gap between me and my closest sibling meant that I had a lot more friends. I made families of friends. And my friends, for the most part, were. quite sensible young people.

So I, and I gravitated towards them. I mean, don't get me wrong. I love a friend with, like, severe mental illness. I think that they're fabulous as well. Yeah. So there's always that. But I also balance that with some really amazing strong, strong women. And especially as I get older, I find myself surrounded by, by,

people like that too. We always ask our guests, what were their first experiences around love and heartbreak, your first crush or infatuation? Well, apropos of Julian Casablancus. And I loved your, the way that you talked about him just now Penn. And I did want to say that, yes, Julian Casablanca, I think his dad owned IMG, or one of the biggest modeling agencies in America or the world. but there is this thing

I think that a lot of artists have independent wealth outside of art in order to make their art and I think that that rebellion and so much art can kind of come from the safety of knowing that you might be okay if you push them down to reason

and I know there are so many amazing artists who did not come from that but anyway I saw the music video for last night on TV when I was 10 years old And it's so funny. I'm actually, this is not planned, but I'm at my mother's house with all my stuff. I was so in love.

And then one night, Domino went out, and she got, she saw the strokes, and she got them to sign this inspire thing for me. So awesome, big sister moment. That's just lying on your desk, it's not spraying or anything. I'm literally staring at it. There's a really weird.

Just touching it with your fingers. I know. I just, it's my, Yeah. Touch you with your fingers. Sophie's like, please frame it, Lola. Please frame it. It's just so funny to me.

She's like, oh, this whole thing. It's in like a weird plastic sleeve with like some other sweet photos. And then other boys I liked, oh my, I mean, well, Heath Ledger and Julian Castablanca just like I knew love from them. Like I would wake up. Did you meet them yourself? I never met Heath Ledger, unfortunately. but I did get to meet Julian Tessablancus one night backstage at Irving Plaza because he was my friend's uncle.

And I couldn't even believe that. Like, how does that make sense? He's like, he's my boyfriend, but he's your uncle, like, what? So, that was really cool. And then Heath Ledger, I just loved. I loved a Knight's Tale. I had the DVD booklet, like, taped into my locker. Yeah.

And then I have, like, some actual boyfriends. I mean, the truth is I've had a boyfriend since I was 12. They're just a different boyfriend. Like, I just kind of find a new boyfriend. I always say the best way to get a boyfriend is to already have one. Everyone loves it when I say that, too. But now I'm getting married, so I'm changed. I'm a changed woman.

Lola, are you getting married? I am getting married. Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. Thank you. The only reason I'm not saying congratulations is because I already have, I already knew that. Congratulations. I was kind of expecting Penn to be like, really?

He's never mentioned any of us. It's all news. All news. Okay, one other question we ask everyone, and then we're going to fully talk about your career, is to share a particularly, like, embarrassing or cringy memory from adolescence. Every single one.

I don't have a single memory of my adolescent so I look back and go, you know what? That was great. Like, it's all cringe. Oh, God. But a particular. cringy memory. This might be like a little bit like more sad, but I've always wanted to, I don't believe

I actually possess style, like fashion style. I think that I just look at other people with style. And if I like them or what their, their effect on the world, I'll just try and emulate that. And this started very young with like real people I knew and then also would kind of go into, go into, like, movie stars. And I loved this movie with Julie Christie and it called Darling,

which, in retrospect, is so funny because it's about a girl who's just like a pompous brat. Like, she's like an awful person. Like, but I thought she was just, like, the height of glamour and beauty. And she was a 1960s model, an actress in the movie. And she wore a lot of, like, mod-style clothing.

So I found what I thought, was like a mod style dress to wear to school. And I was like, how else can I kind of merge my personality with hers? And I noticed that she had a fish in the movie. So I went during all my free periods because we had no grades and we had free periods and could do whatever we want to every pet shop in Brooklyn looking for a goldfish. And finding none, I settled on a Siamese fighting fish that I decorated the tank and I walked back to school thinking I looked just incredible. And the group of, like, cool kids

who I really, really, really wanted to like me, who just, like, would never, ever like me. There was no chance. Saw me coming. And they had heard that I had bought a fish. And I don't know. The pet store owner? Yeah, the pet store owner, beach paged them. You were on your way back. You know, like, someone, like, someone who saw me, like, approaching the school was, like, they're waiting for you. And I was like, who? What? And I get there and all the, like, hot stone or freaks charged at me.

And the one grabbed my little carrier tank and he took my Siamese fighting fish, which I had named Darling, out. And he swallowed the fish. Oh, in front of me. So then I took the water from the tank and I dumped it on his head. Which he responded to by taking a fucking Coke slushy, like a nearby random Coke slushy, and pouring it all over my stuff. Oh, my goodness. I know. It was crazy.

It was insane. That is insane. And then I can't believe it happened. And the best, the way that this resolves is that he asked me to go to prom with him a couple weeks later. So I was just prom. Yeah, you evidently. And then this should segue into my career quite well. Many years later, when I was on a TV, on Mozart in the Jungle, TV show, it won a golden globe for best comedy or whatever.

And we didn't think we were going to win. So I had taken off. Actually, my shoe had broken, so I had taken off my shoes. And we didn't think we were going to win. So I was like, this is fine. And we did. And I, like, go up on stage barefoot. And I, like, went on Instagram the next day.

And the guy had, like, posted something that was, like, hometown girl makes good. and it was just a picture of my... It was like a close-up shot of my bare feet. He's an artist. It's all making sense. On the stage. So, yeah, so that is... It was cringe and it was all...

But I think the cringiest part to me about that, not the heinous bullying, but is just like... And maybe it's a good thing, but, like, my full commitment to try and be, like, someone I'm not... Which I guess has served me well as an actress in a lot of ways,

but can be just like, when will I just like... Maybe all these... people that were drawn to really hold things about us, too, that are special. Well, speaking of Mozart in the jungle, incredible show. If anyone hasn't seen it, I think it's still on Prime.

It's really wonderful. You're amazing in it. Can you tell us a little bit about it? And was it your first time being number one on the call sheet? It was actually number two. I'm trying to think, what have I been number one? By screen time, it should have been you, but was it the guy, was it the conductor, the composer? I know, no, no.

Guyel was number one I think I was number two I don't know we had so many amazing legends in that show like Bernardette Peters and Malcolm McDowell

well as an audience member I thought of you as the star for sure I was you were my number and that's you know as an actor in the biz I knew you weren't number one just because of that

I actually I thought I'm like well maybe I'm wrong so I let her ask but No, I was not number one. But yeah, that show, that show was so funny. I mean, it's amazing to think that at the time that that show came out, like, streaming was just like, what?

That was the first show I ever saw on Prime. It was just started. Yeah. I got a Prime membership to watch it. Thanks. I mean, we were just like the other show that wasn't transparent. It was like the thing. That's true.

Yeah. Yeah. What was it like? What was that show like for you sort of? set in the music world? What was that experience for you? What was it like learning obo? Hilarious.

Learning obo was hilarious. So I played an oboist, and the show was about like, well, it was pitched originally as like the seedy underbelly of classical music because it was based on a memoir of the same name by an oboist named Blair Tyndall, who unfortunately passed away. But it was interesting to me because I had never really listened to classical music. I just kind of thought that that's what old people listen to slash my dentist did because that was what he always, which honestly, I never realized how much I associated classical music with getting my teeth drilled, but I did until we did that show. And it was kind of funny because my character is, she's obsessed by classical music. She loves classical music, but that was not my relationship to classical music.

And as an actor, I think I've heard it called all sorts of different things. but as ifs, like I would have to act as if when I was being kind of enraptured by a beautiful piece by, you know, Sebelius or something, I would be like, I'm listening to Led Zeppelin right now for the first time or just kind of asking about things that had that effect on me. That said, now I can't listen. I'm really exclusively listening to wordless music, classical. I do like opera a lot, and I like a lot of jazz. I've moved away from listening. to songs, which is so weird because I write songs all the time, and that's probably why. But I, that show was incredible. It changed my life.

We got to shoot in New York, in Mexico City, in Venice, Italy, and in Tokyo. Like, at every year, I would just, it was crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that was when the few streamers that were really hitting it big,

they were like, either, you know, if it was Netflix, for instance, they're like we're so far from actually making a profit we can just spend as much money as we want now because it's like nobody's caught on yet and then in the case of amazon is like we sell the TVs and the phones they watch on and everything else we don't even there's no money we're trying to make from this like so they were just sort of like willing to for the sake of the production value of the show to just say this is what we make right they just kind of like let yes it seems like such a win the win of the creator yeah yeah

Yeah, it was a special time. It seemed like that show is among a very small class where it really had that. It was just like, damn, what are they doing now? Whoa, they're going, whoa. Yeah, with like 200-person orchestras in every city. No, it was so special. And then it so sadly got canceled before its fifth season.

And I remember it being like, yeah, they just want to make more action content. was the reply and I'm sure that that actually does make money instead of these shows about you know wacky classical musicians so can't blame them but um no I love that show I love that show and I can't believe I got to be a part of something like that I mean it feels I don't know if you had this experience Penn when you're like you know going from Gossip Girl and then not you know having a show until you, and you're just like, oh, there's like an existential crisis when your life has been

defined by one project that you've been making for so long that ensued, at least for me. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, yeah, like I, I, you know, had some kind of significant transformation then, you know. I became a behind. I stopped drinking. I just, I, I, all kinds of, you know. Okay, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. You're like, yeah. Yeah, no, I don't know. I mean, I became high and stopped thinking. Is that why you had twins to help your transition out of you? Yeah.

Yeah, twins. Actually, you know what? Towards the tail end of that is when I met your sister. It's when I met Domino. Wow. And I would, and I actually, and I got married. So all those things happened, all those things. Yeah, very much.

Yeah. No, well, one, yeah, that happens because you're just, you know, as, as an, as an actor, you can't nobody it's very hard to articulate I suppose as I'm demonstrating now just how much you become identified with something that in some ways

you were like not responsible for it all you know absolutely you're like I didn't write it I didn't direct it I didn't edit it I didn't score it I didn't dress myself I mean I dressed myself but I didn't you know really like I wasn't the one buying the clothes of choosing

I had me I just yeah it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a It's a strange thing. So I guess, you know, but you actually have had most of your experience in film, which is, um,

in some ways notably different. And, you know, you, you, you came up through some really significant supporting roles, like,

for instance, uh, in Gone Girl. Wait, is that what is girl? Yeah, Gone Girl. Yeah. Such a detestable character.

In Gone Girl. Among a bunch of detestable characters. Yeah. It's amazing. Yes. Yeah. I know. It is.

I like hearing. that because I feel, you know, just like so perfect that I can't imagine that anyone would ever find me. They're just the character, you know, yeah. But I think that the reason that role, I mean, I love that role, but I think that

you kind of want to see Amy Dunn, the character that Rosamond Pike plays so incredibly in Gong Girl, you know, get hers. That's true, actually. I really liked your character. I don't it's funny now that now I'm remembering that she's meant to be detestable, but that's not the way I remembered it. I remember her being like, spunky little

you know, right? Well, I feel like in the point in the movie where you are introduced we don't know if she's like a beaten wife or evil like it's not decided yet so we're sympathizing with her

because we think she's like run away from abusive relationship and you steal all her stuff and yeah yeah. Spoilers for Gone Girl sorry. Greatest twist of all time ruined. If you've

also I'm Gossip Girl don't know if you know that. Second greatest festival What else we got? It's so crazy being, like, related to the act to gossip. Yeah, I know. It's amazing that he's not just a character in the show. No, no, no.

It's perfect. Do you know you were gossip girl the whole time? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. In fact, probably most people who are hearing this have already heard this because it's been asked a few times on this show. No, it's okay. It's okay. Everybody wants to know.

You know, Julie Dreyfus actually asked this question, too. She was like, did you know the whole? whole time. Matthew McConaughey asked it as well. That was his first question right off the bat. Actually, he didn't know who Penn was. I just want to say. No, Matthew McConaughey definitely had no idea who I was.

Like not a clue. Matthew McConaughey, great actor, better off. Yeah. Go ahead and say it right now. Green lights, green lights, everywhere. Oh, my God. So funny. Well, we have to talk about sinners.

Do you want to talk about Mr. America? I'm just thinking about time. Well, I wanted to ask about Mr. America because it was such a, I mean, it's such a win for you, you know what I mean? And it's such a good film and such a great performance. And you're really the star of that. Probably not number one, but, you know. I was definitely not number one on that either.

Maybe I would. No, no. No, I think you must have been. You must have been. No, probably Greta. I don't know. We'll have to dig up a call sheet. But you were working with Noah as he's reaching the pinnacle of, you know,

filmmaking cool and prestige at that point. And as well as Greta, you know, she's on her way. Who was just at the very beginning of her own kind of. Right, yeah, yeah, definitely. And so I'm just curious, like, what was that? So first when you read the script and then as you, what was the audition process like? And that must have felt very exciting. Well, I didn't get a script until I got the job.

They were, so it was Doug Abel who cast me in that. And Doug had kind of, Doug has, like, is responsible for my career. Doug is the casting director who flew me out to, LA for a screen test when I was 11 and then when I quit this after He's that guy? Yeah. You're kidding me, this same casting director? Yes. Wow. And then when I

started acting again at the end of college he brought me in to audition for that and he cast me in Mozart in the jungle as well. What on earth? Wow. That's great. I want to know a casting director like that. I think he's still the creative director at the Vineyard Theater. But he's so awesome. And I got brought in for

top secret project dummy sides, which maybe people who listen to this are familiar with the term, but it means they don't give you actual sides from the script. They give you something else. And I auditioned, I think about 11 times. The final audition was a read-through of the script in Greta and Noah's apartment with the DP Sam Levy. And that was an audition still?

Yes, it was an audition still. Holy crap. And it was one of my first movies. and I certainly like my first time being close to number one on the call sheet and Noah I don't know if it's as famous as David Fincher's proclivity for this but Noah does like a hundred takes of everything whether it's your hand it's a pickup of your hand grabbing some pasta or whatever so in a lot of ways I was so grateful to have that be my first experience because it just like trained me to be like I just do 100 takes of every single thing And it was really fun to have the experience of doing that, too, because you really got to, like, know a scene. And that movie was intentionally made for a smaller budget. We had a really small crew. The DP did my makeup.

And the makeup was... Was that so you could take the time? It was so we had more time. And the DP did my makeup also because they think that there was a sense that, you know, that was a superfluous cost. And look, I love all of the people I know in Harry. and makeup on TV. There are some incredibly talented people who work in that space.

But I do miss the natural skin and the natural look that classified a lot of earlier films. And I think that this is something that's weird, even on red carpets. I mean, I look at pictures of like Sissy Spacec on the red carpet in the 80s

getting her Oscar and she looks like she tried to look good and she does because she just is beautiful. But it's like the cottage industry of like celebrity styling and hair and makeup. It is wild, yeah. You know, the pre-awards colonic was just like so besides the point. Well, I don't know.

I mean, until you try it, it sounds crazy. I know, I know. I mean, I get a clonic before I wake up every day. Before you wake up. So there's a team that comes in. Yeah, yeah, there's a tube. I don't even see who does. I've got my mask on.

We just had Lily Reinhart on the show who was in Riverdale, and she said, starting in like, season three, Riverdale, she started doing her own makeup because she felt like her character doesn't get her makeup done. So she's just like, she shouldn't look like she's just gotten her hair and makeup done. Yeah.

Which I thought was really cool. I mean, it's all part of that beauty industrial complex that I think we were talking about a little bit earlier. But like, the way that people, I mean, people look crazy. People like just woke up and they have that like perfect crimp curl that I know how I do it.

You know, so I'm like, you didn't wake up. But, yeah, that was an incredible experience. And I can't believe now that, like, Greta, who had wrote and starred in that movie was, like, younger than I am now. Like, I hate thinking about that. Yeah. That's crazy. Makes me really depressed. Let's talk about sinners.

How did you come on Ryan Coogler's, like, radar? How did you get— tell us about, like, the audition process, how you got the part. And then I'm also really curious about the music, like, the large musical numbers. If you could, like, walk us through how those were fun of their incredible. So that's another casting director who's been really wonderful to me, Francine Maisler. I love her so much. And she, I got an audition from her. I did not say what it was for.

There was one scene, and it was a scene that was actually in the movie, but was ultimately cut from the movie. That was quite a racially charged scene. And it was just like, my God, as an actor, like, to get a job, you have to go and say a bunch of stuff. like really stuff you'd never say in real life and um i this is now in the age of what a lot of actors will know about is the age of the self-tape and i know some people really like them personally i have never gotten a job off of a self-tape i'm much better in a room interacting you know i lay on the charm blah blah so i asked i was like can i please audition for this over zoom with one of the casting associates. And I happened to be making my debut at the Grand Ole Opry that night. And I was

like really nervous. It came in like the night before. And we did the scene and then the casting associate was like, oh, and I, you sing, right? And I was like, yes, I'm actually like making my debut at the Grand Al Opry tonight. And she happened to be from Nashville. And she had grown up next door to one of the guys who's in the house band for 30 years at the Opry. And I was like, oh, that's a weird little sign um and they they sent there's a music video of mine for a song called all my exes live in LA um where I get I I strip down while walking down the street it's it's a really fun music video and it's shot in one take but I was like do you want me to sing for you um now and they're like no no we're just going to send that music video of you I was great oh that one okay yeah

you send that one um got the part we shot in New Orleans for a very long time, Ludwig Gorensen and his wife, who was one of the music producers on the movie, Serena, had this incredible church recording studio. So whatever I wasn't shooting, I was like in the church recording studio. It was incredible. I mean, the amount of times we recorded the two songs I sing, or the three songs I sing, because I sing on Rocky Road, Dublin as well. It was like, can we come in and do it this way? Can we come in and do it that way? We're always recording it. And I think the take that we ended up using for Go Lassie Go was in fact the live take that we shot as the sun was rising in that scene. So after all that, but it was a great tactic you know, like learn the song, know it really well. It's not unlike that, you know, Fincher or Boundbeck thing

where it's like you do it so many times that you stop being nervous about it and you just relax into it in a certain way and some real instincts get to come out. So my best friend happened to be getting married and... It was the night that we were shooting. I was meant to be like the maid of honor or whatever.

And they changed the schedule so that we were shooting the big outdoor crazy vampire dance scene on the night of her wedding. And I was just like so sad, but also just like this is incredible, you know, but I'm missing my best friend's wedding. And like the one kind of silver lining, one of the many silver linings was like, I spent that entire night next to shirtless Michael B. Jordan. I was just like I mean this is I thought it was going to be something like but my friend was able to you know fill in the blank

nope she had a great lady she's fine yeah that was really funny I was just like you know you know

to the old man upstairs so I was like this is hilarious like yeah you know compensation that's great I was imagining

that there might have been some kind of triumvirate between well i wasn't thinking about the musical directors of the of the of the thing i was thinking of there must have been certainly getting this thing off the ground um but before you were involved there must have been this kind of trio of ryan cougler and the two michael b jordan's no i just mean michael b jordan and um autumn derald is that how you say yes that's name so autumn darald is the cinematographer ryan cougar director obviously michael b jordan the star as the two twins um this is such a

a visually and specifically like a like a cinematically stunning film because it was shot on 70 millimeter right for iMacs yeah and and i'm telling you some of these shots are like they're among undoubtedly to me the most beautiful in all of cinema they're like it's like striking really really striking stuff yeah what was it like being on a set where you had people who had crafted a vision together who you know that rare kind of time where you have the time and money to do it the way that it needs to be done because they've kind of demonstrated it in the other ones.

You know, they've kind of been like, we've given you your popcorn. Now we're going to, we're still going to give you your popcorn, but it's going to be laced with something. You know, like, what did that feel like? It felt like a lot of downtime. Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of downtime where you couldn't quite lie down

because you have your hair like the tiny, Of course, of course. You just never know what's... You never know when you're needed. Also, I love Louisiana and New Orleans, but it's very funny that they shoot movies there in the summertime because you can't shoot like half the time because of lightning and the union rules around lightning.

So we would show up, and we were shooting nights, like so much of it. So you'd start at like 4 p.m. and then you'd finish as soon as the sun rose even later. And, like, you just would wait all night. be like, yeah, well, we've been getting lightning every 20 minutes, so we're not shooting tonight. And thank God they had the budget to continue on and get what they really needed to do, because I think Ryan had such a specific vision for what he wanted.

And Autumn is a genius. That was my second time working with her. Jemima and I actually did a movie with her called Untogether, and I've never looked better in a movie than when she shot me. So I love working with Autumn. I think she's so talented. Lola, we've referenced your music throughout this conversation, but I am curious, you're a British New Yorker,

what prompted your desire to be in country? Well, I think it's not... It's a country, isn't it? It's a country, right? No, it's a... I think it's not unconnected to my kind of desire to belong to something. I think... Well, first of all, if I could have been punk, I would have,

but I'm not cool enough. I mean, they just did not like me. They ate my fish as a kid. You know, like the punks just never, in country I qualify as cool, which I really appreciate. But also, I think it's a lot about storytelling. Country music is storytelling at its finest at its most succinct. And when it's done well at its most like heartbreaking, I really, really love that. And there's a lot of humor in country too.

So the ability to both be funny and heartbreaking is just like one of my favorite things in any art form. And I think there was also this kind of like lure of three chords and the truth, which is harder to tell. But three chords are easier to play than all of the chords I would have to edit in another genre. And I always love the, I think that the archetype of the women in country is just so dynamic, even though there's obviously a lot. of other things that would be more kind of stereotypical, but, like, it's a lot of grit and glamour for women. They get to be, you know, tough and tender and mothers and also, like, you know, glamorous. So there's so many things I love about country music. But I'm definitely moving away from that genre. I think for a while I really was like, no, I want to make country music

because I really, again, I wanted to fit in somewhere. But I didn't really fit in. As one Once again, my efforts to assimilate and do as a side, you know, no, I just want to be a member of a club that won't have me. So. Yeah. And now I'm moving away from that. I want to be a member of my own club. You touch on family quite a bit in Trailblazer.

I cried listening to Zeppelin III. Oh. And the Mississippi, my sister Elvis and me, that one too, which I wasn't expecting. Yes. Yes. But it did make me tear up. But I'm curious what themes you're exploring currently. in your songwriting?

Thank you for listening to my album. That means so much to me, by the way. And I'm so grateful that those songs connect with you because those are some of my favorite songs on the record, too. That record is a lot more about family. I wrote it at the same time as I wrote Wild West Village. I didn't find a track about me, though.

I just started like this guy looks like my therapist. The next album is actually all about it. No one sees it coming. Yeah. I think in a way, I want to have exhausted songs about family because, you know, I don't want to be the girl that's just like always writing about that.

So I'm discovering new, more kind of subtle ways of writing about the things that I think and feel there. But I am really loving writing songs about, like, growing up, basically, like getting older, growing up in a different way. And writing songs about, societal pressure. I think what bugs me a lot about music that I hear coming from people who are my age is just like more songs about fucking and flirting. So many. I'm just like but there's

so many other things and like to come back to Bonnie Ray and like I don't believe any I don't think anyone's really that. No. If you were really that horny, you just go fuck you wouldn't just always be writing about it. Also I'm also thinking like sex is great but like come on there's so it's not that great everything you say is just so good lola even no even if it was the amount of time compared to the rest of life you can actually spend doing it it's just it's like guys we got to move on we have to move on well to me i really think that sex is like water it's the best thing ever when you want it but when you're done it's just boring totally you know that's a good metaphor

That's novel. I've not heard that. I've never heard that either. I think it works pretty well. Well, I just came up with it literally just now. But if you, I think that the people that are all singing about wanting to have sex at the time, go have sex and then write about other things because there's more to explore. And there's a song that I love on Bonnie Rates album, Nick of Time, which is the titular song, that it's all about the things that, like, I need to hear more about. It's like getting worried that you're too old to have kids. It's about seeing your parents get older and getting nervous that they're seeing you get older, too, and how scary that is. And then it's about, like, finding love all in the nick of time. So, I don't know, that I want that kind of experience and that hope in music, not just like, I'm so horny. Lola, I love that. This is going to be a strange segue, but I wanted to ask you this earlier, and I forgot, if the kirk's are wolves, what is Penn Badgley?

How does he fit in? I'm a therapist. The therapist. Yeah. And is a therapist. God, I feel like you're a very, you're very wise. What's,

so I don't want to say elephant, but I feel like that. Grasshopper? Are grasshopper is considered ones? And with that, yeah, grasshopper, he's a wise grasshopper. I'm a wise grasshopper. I prefer an elephant

just because an elephant takes up more space, but, you know. Right, right. No, no, you definitely take a lot of space. The final question is if you go back to 12-year-old Lola, what would you say? or do, if anything.

Go and create your life. That's what I would say. I think creating your life is. Don't you think she would probably say, yeah, bitch, I'm doing that. Did you see me in Teenboat? No. No.

Oh, or maybe I would say you get to create your life. This doesn't have to be what it is. I love that, Lola. That's really powerful. You can get Lola Kirk's new book, Wild West Village, not a memoir, unless I win an Oscar,

die tragically, or score a country number one. anywhere you get your books, and you can follow her online at Lola Kirk. Pod Crushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time, because guess what? You can listen completely ad-free. Plus, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content, like the time we talked to Luca Bravo,

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