Podcrushed - Madeline Brewer

Starting point is 00:00:00 Lemonada A memory popped back into my head of choir in high school. Our choir teacher would let one of the girls who was addicted to smoking cigarettes. She would let her go out before choir and smoke a cigarette because she was like, well, your voice will be more relaxed. Like you'll, yeah. Isn't that crazy? That's a little, yeah. I'm not kidding you when I was in college.

Starting point is 00:00:27 I smoked in college. Yeah. And I would smoke a cigarette. right before my voice lesson and every time she'd be like, you are in great voice today. Yeah, there's not. I think it's not going to make us moving right now. We'll be back. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties. Lusting over Hobbits. Let's be real, the hobbits are sexy. Welcome to the fifth and final season of Podcrushed.

Starting point is 00:01:00 No, I'm sorry, I'm confusing, I'm confusing shows here. Welcome to Podcrush. We are today in studio, New York City. I am joined by my co-host, Sophie Ansari, Neva Kavlin, and our guest for the intro. Should I be looking at this camera? This camera. We have three cameras today, folks. We have one very special guest for the fifth and final season of you.

Starting point is 00:01:18 She is here promoting not only that, but Handmaid's Tale, which is out now. Yeah, coming out. This is Madeline Brewer. So you know her from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, my show now, our show, you, Handmaid's Tale, Hustlers, Cam. Yeah. Orange is the new black? What don't you know it from?

Starting point is 00:01:37 Yeah. We dig in to everything and more. We had a very lovely time. You're going to like this one. Please stick around. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time,

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Starting point is 00:03:30 available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. A 15-year-old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer. I used my front teeth to saw on the rope in my mouth. He's been convicted of murdering two young women, but suspected of many more.

Starting point is 00:03:56 Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dull Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. Madeline Brewer. Oh, my lumbar support is just falling. I'm lost.

Starting point is 00:04:26 I have no way to... I'll just be like this the whole time. Yeah, sure. Madeline Brewer, hello. Enjoy that chair. Welcome to pod crushed. Thank you. There you go.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Hmm. Better? Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. We're so excited you're here. Yeah, seriously. We always start at 12th. Okay.

Starting point is 00:04:51 Right? So paint a picture for us, for those who don't know you, you know, you, you, you, you, you were raised in this one town, kind of your whole life, as far as I'm aware, right? So there's, I just feel like there's going to be a lot of rich veins to tap into. But what was 12-year-old, Maddie like? How was she seeing the world? What was daily life like? Oh, God.

Starting point is 00:05:12 12. I went to the same, like, schools that all, like my parents both did. We all graduated from the same high school, most of my cousins and my aunts and uncles and I. very small town just for that context so at 12 um that's when i got my period that was a really big thing that happened to me at that time i think i was in the seventh grade um i was just like a at the kid like a theater kid i played softball um i played soccer so you already you already were like uh you failed math you failed really math never got any better failed. First F

Starting point is 00:05:55 I ever got on my report card was... Really? It was the algebra thing when you start pre-algebra in seventh grade. There's letters. Like, they don't belong here. This is math class. What do you do? You don't know this was going to be numbers class if you want letters. How did that, did you care about that? Like, some people would, some people wouldn't.

Starting point is 00:06:15 I was not academically motivated, like, by any means. Still not really. I could never really wrap my brain around caring that much about school. I mean, maybe I probably could have done with like caring a lot more. But I just, I wanted to do theater. I always did theater. I did it since I was seven. That's what I cared about.

Starting point is 00:06:36 So actually in the seventh grade, I was like the lead in the musical, which was super cool. And you were already like a theater? I was theater nerd. Would you call yourself that? Like that's kind of a thing. nerd and me don't really go together you are extremely cool i'm so cool no i wasn't like a theater nerd in the way that i would classify a theater nerd like i didn't put playbills up on my wall okay not that that makes you nerdy i think that that makes you cool but like when you think about what a nerd is like

Starting point is 00:07:07 yeah yeah um i just really loved it i'm really i was big into wicked you know yeah how did your parents react when you failed like what was their sort of concern about your schooling i don't felt like they had a lot of room to talk because I'm pretty sure both of my parents were also not academically motivated. I mean, later, they're both very educated, which came later when they realized like how valuable it is, I guess,

Starting point is 00:07:32 and what they wanted to do with their lives and careers. But I know that they both were not great in school. Like very intelligent people, but not motivated academically. Yeah. Well, your dad was an artist of a kind, right? He was... Yes.

Starting point is 00:07:47 My dad is a singer, long writer and has been for most of my childhood. But he was a U.S. history teacher. I think he has a master's in U.S. history. So he's very educated. Yeah. And he is truly like the smartest person I've ever met. He is like, I think that he's on the autism spectrum because of his hyper

Starting point is 00:08:12 interests in U.S. history in like the tutor side of the monarchy. in the UK, and baseball and the Beatles. Yeah, those are his, like, focuses. He has, and he knows everything. He's written a book, he's written two or three books about U.S. history, at least one book about the Beatles. Wow. Wow.

Starting point is 00:08:36 I thought he might have written, like, three or four books about U.S. history. Oh, no, he's written, like, four books about U.S. history. Wow. Was this when you were growing up? Was he writing these books? Yeah, he started with a book called Squire Williams' Lucky Day, which was like a kind of fiction, fantasy, very Lord of the Rings. Yeah, about this squire who goes on a journey, goes on a great quest.

Starting point is 00:08:59 And he was writing that, I remember when I was a kid. And he was, at the time, he was like hunt and pecking on the keyboard. Yeah. Took him a long time. I still hunt and peck, but I'm very fast. Actually, I use three fingers. Sophisticated. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:14 I hunt and peck, but it has nothing to do with typing. I just hunt and peck. just hunted back. Wait, you said Lord of the Rings. I'm now remembering. Did you like Lord of the Rings? Was this a youth thing? Did you? Yeah, I've always loved Lord of the Rings. That's so interesting to me. But I feel like I was kind of, it was natural. I mean, my, my dad read us Harry Potter and like, so the fiction fantasy thing is kind of, I like it. And like, if I have, I do like maybe a, um, an annual rewatch of all three of Lord of the Rings. Wow, that's, is it like one, Christmas time? Sometimes, it depends on just like when I get a day or a weekend. It's usually now with my fiancé, who's also super into Lord of the Rings.

Starting point is 00:09:58 Oh, that's really tough. I mean, he calls where he's from in England, the Shire. I was going to say, there's something about him that, like, he doesn't seem like a hobbit, but he seems like he's from where. No, he's a joke. No, no, because isn't he from Glastonbury? He's from Glastonbury Town, yeah. Right, which is like this, it's like just crystals and like hobbit holes.

Starting point is 00:10:18 I hear. It's like they do have... Shout out to Glastonbury. Yeah. There are like, in Somerset, there's like caves in like these really beautiful planes

Starting point is 00:10:26 and then there's like Glastonbury tour which has, it's like, the whole town has its roots and like really in paganism and like, yeah,

Starting point is 00:10:37 he gives Hobbit. Like he gives Hobbit vibes. I love that. But like in a sad am I. Super cool. Well, I mean, let's be real. The hobbits are sexy.

Starting point is 00:10:47 Yeah, sexy hobbit. Elijah who it is. Yeah. Come on. I'm curious about your hometown. You mentioned it. You said it was small. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:56 Pitman. Because I feel like in our research, I found you talk about your hometown quite a bit, like wanting to go back, loving your hometown. I can underscore this in real life. She does, too, in a really loving way. I just blank it there. You love what you're from. You love your family.

Starting point is 00:11:10 It sounds like you have this big kind of extended family, right? You're like a, would you call herself a Jersey girl? Oh, God. Yes. Yeah. She's like, insulted. You would even ask? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:20 Actually, though, every time I go home, I go to Pal Joie's and get a hoagie. There you go. If I can, if I can swing it. Yeah, I love where I'm from. I'm not, well, the town has some really complicated roots, deeply religious and for a very long time, deeply racist. So don't love that. So this is an American town. American town, a small town in the United States.

Starting point is 00:11:46 States, two square miles. And it's a little bit racist. Two square miles. Yeah. Wow. That's very small. It's two miles. And for many years, actually until recent years, it was a completely dry town. Like, but on every corner. You're saying there's no recent. Outside of the two months, like a bar and like a packaged good store. But I have really fond memories of growing up there. I grew up with the same people from preschool to 12th grade. And my best friends. live in South Jersey. And it, I mean, obviously had its downsides, you know, middle school the whole time. But I am very fond of it. And my whole family's there. And now, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:30 my cousins are starting to have kids. And my cousins are, yeah, we're all very close. I'm curious specifically about how your hometown played a role in your middle school experience in terms of like the places and spaces you would hang out. Like I imagine in a small town, you have a little bit more freedom and independence because it feels safer. I'm curious, like, what would you do with your friends after school? Like, was there a spot you would go? Well, I mean, I was, I did, like, extracurriculars. So I did for spring and fall.

Starting point is 00:13:02 It's always, like, softball and then soccer. And I did that until I went to high school because those girls in high school cared a lot. I was like, we are not playing in the Olympics. We're playing against some girls from, like, one town over. relax it's three miles away yeah it's like right on the other side and they're drunk good because they have their dung and drink yeah um yeah it's so i was i did that i mean i did theater i mean every summer since i was like seven seven or eight every single summer

Starting point is 00:13:35 until my senior year of high school i did a community theater so uh we had a great community theater in Pittman and I was right at the high school, which is right down the street. And I loved it. It was every summer. It was like a thing to be involved in. I made friends from other towns. But I also was from age nine until age like 19. I was in a choir. And that was like, especially in seventh grade, I hated the choir because it was on Friday nights from seven to 9 p.m., which is like prime 12 year old time. Yeah, 12, 13 year old. I hated it because I wanted to go to the skating rink. Yeah. Like, it sounds like I'm from the 1950s, but that was like the place to hang out when I was in seventh grade and was like, you meet. What does Tina Belcher call

Starting point is 00:14:30 them? Are we supposed to know Tina Belcher? F-O. What are they called B-F-F-F-O? Tina Veltar is from Bob's Burgers and they're boys from other towns. Oh, that's cute. I forget exactly what they're called. But that's where like in when I was 12, 13, it's like boys from other town. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's like cute.

Starting point is 00:14:52 All was at like the roller rink. Yeah. And I couldn't go because I had to go like an angel. I had to sing. I just had a memory pop back into my head of choir in high school. Our choir teacher would let one of the girls who was addicted to smoking cigarettes. She would let her go out before choir and smoke a cigarette because she was like, well, your voice will be more relaxed. Like you're, you look like it. Isn't that crazy? I know. I'm not

Starting point is 00:15:19 kidding you. When I was in college, I smoked in college. Yeah. And I would smoke a cigarette right before my voice lesson. And every time she'd be like, you are in great voice today. Yeah. There's not. I think there's not. Not doing anyone right. We'll be back. Okay, so you were a theater kid, not a theater nerd. You were not that academically inclined, and you described middle school as awful. I'm curious, any memorable or weird interactions with teachers? Well, there was a teacher in the seventh grade who definitely didn't like me. Why do you think that is?

Starting point is 00:15:56 I think that she really liked students who were really engaged and cared a lot about what was being taught. I didn't care. But I also, because I don't know if I just learned in a different way. I've always felt like I learned by doing and also a very visual learner. I just wasn't, I didn't really get it. I don't know. I just couldn't wrap my brain around a lot of things. I am still that way. It takes me a while to grasp something. And I don't think that she liked that. And I think she just kind of thought I was stupid. And, I've had a lot of teachers, especially math teachers, I felt, it's why I just don't, I don't do math. And they showed you that. Like she, she let that come through. Yeah, I definitely felt like I was disappointing and I was not smart enough and that's whatever. I know now I'm smart, I'm a smart and intelligent person and I, that's fine. I'm not able to grasp math the same way other people are, and I learn differently, and that's fine.

Starting point is 00:17:08 But I make those accommodations for myself now because I know what they are. And, you know, being the child of a teacher, and my dad is so compassionate and passionate about history and really tries to get the kids engaged and involved. And some kids just don't get it. And that's the way it is. I'd like to think I wouldn't be that kind of student in my own dad's class. but and I wasn't my dad taught in a different town but I also love history

Starting point is 00:17:36 like I was gonna it was gonna happen I was gonna love history yeah well as a former teacher I'm sorry you had that experience I was gonna say these are two yeah yeah and teachers shouldn't convey that no matter how a student is doing but I also I get it like teaching especially the one teacher I had who really I think I didn't realize actually until this last year

Starting point is 00:17:58 I've gone back to school I'm taking classes at the new school. And it was like the day I got my syllabus for this course I'm taking, which is difficult. And I just, I was uncontrollably weeping. And I couldn't figure out why. I didn't know why. I just knew I was scared. And I had this flashback that I have not thought about since it happened.

Starting point is 00:18:22 I was 16. I was in an algebra class because I couldn't take algebra my freshman year because I failed. of a teacher just being like, what do you mean you don't understand this? What? Like, how can you not get it? I've described it to you so many different ways. Everybody else in the class gets it.

Starting point is 00:18:41 I was also a sophomore in class with all freshmen. So I already fell out of place. And I got this flashback when I was weeping in my apartment, like not understanding what I was feeling, to this teacher who just really made me feel so, inept at I was actually this is I was just talking to my sister who also really struggled with math she actually got diagnosed with a math learning disability called discalcula and she was telling me that just recently like a couple days ago she came across a woman she had to do this like number

Starting point is 00:19:18 she had to have this conversation about numbers and the woman reminded her of her elementary school teacher and she just she said I'm sorry give me a second and she left and she wept and she had to walk around them all for a couple hours and then come back and deal with it. Yeah. But yeah, I think it hits so deep. And I think for teachers, obviously a teacher should never make a student feel that way, but you're interacting with so many students. I can see how you might, the teacher might have not even thought that what they said would land or- I don't think she was like a cruel woman or anything. Yeah. I think that she might have been. Well, I think that she was also at a point in her career as a teacher where maybe it was time to stop to stop teaching like she was not a young

Starting point is 00:20:02 teacher she was like she'd been doing this a really long time and if we know pitman she was a sober racist so i mean we're not starting off with a great zero here yeah but just sober racist oh my gosh that's not a great representation of pitman here at pod crush pinman has changed a lot pitman has done so much i mean my mom herself is on like uh the what is it called the the anti-racist drinking team and the anti-racist committee and the um and like the pride alliance like just kind of trying to bring pitman into the 21st century um and it's a pretty split town in a lot of ways but there are there are wonderful people there um it's a great place to grow up and um i liked the theater department yeah yeah yeah i think it's so important to have something especially if you're

Starting point is 00:20:56 struggling in one area to have something that you feel like. But it doesn't matter. Like this is my thing. You know, there's this thing that people will say, if you have a kid who struggles with math and excels in soccer, don't get them a soccer coach. No, sorry. Don't get them a math coach. Don't get them a math tutor, get them a soccer coach. There is. This happens to me, like, almost any of my hodge. I'm a hoagie. You brought a background. But, you know, like, focus on the on the strengths. I think my parents really did that for me as well. They both were so, so encouraging and never made me feel like there was anything wrong with me because I didn't understand math. Because, well, they don't understand math.

Starting point is 00:21:38 And so it wasn't really out of place. Maddie, you have a brother named Nick? I do. What was your relationship like? Is he older, is he younger? My brother's older. Nick is three years older. We're very different.

Starting point is 00:21:52 But all of the coolest things about me, like when people, if I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh, I'm I like these films or I like this music or I'm like, that's my brother. It's like my brother is the coolest person I know. So wait, did he like musical theater? No. But he has come to all my shows ever since I was a kid. He's come to every show. He's watched every show I've been.

Starting point is 00:22:15 And even though it's definitely not his thing. He's like the most, he's like the quietest, biggest fan. My brother is the best. but we were like my brother was a senior in high school when I was a freshman and so in Pittman they have freshmen through senior I don't think that's the same anymore because there's like no kids but we don't need to talk about that um and so I was like very preppy kid like teenager I guess I was you know it was a phase but I wore only like Hollister and ripped jeans and I was like always in a tanning booth and uh don't whatever I get spray tans now that are going to kill me like the tanning I know I'm going to say something. But it was a thing, you know, it was a thing, Jim Tan Laundry. Part of my culture. It's New Jersey.

Starting point is 00:23:04 Yes. It was my culture, yeah. New Jersey, Jersey Shore was on. And my brother was a senior and kind of was like very cool and really smart but didn't care about school, just needed to graduate. Sounds like he might have been good at math. I mean, I'm not trying to, like, no, because he, no, really? because you're saying that he works with computers in some way now?

Starting point is 00:23:28 In some way. Right, but we don't know. I know he's told me, too. I don't think it involves math, though. Also, calculators. Fair. But, like, I never took the SATs because the day I was supposed to do it, I didn't realize I was supposed to have a graphing calculator.

Starting point is 00:23:46 And I, like, walk in. That's terrifying. Oh, you walked in and left. No, and then I left. Wow. Yeah, because I was like, I don't have the right calculator. Did you take the ACT instead? No, I've never taken...

Starting point is 00:23:56 How'd you get into college? I went to a conservatory. Oh, and then it replied. And then those credits transfer. We will get to your career very briefly, but very shortly. First love, first heartbreak, if it happened in middle school, high school. Particularly the adolescent ones, you know, if it's... I love that you immediately...

Starting point is 00:24:16 Self-grooming because I know I feel like just... How about we... How about we... You want to start with an embarrassing story? Way worse. I've never done anything embarrassing. Never ever. I've been cool forever. Okay. Yeah. No, I had, um, my first love was in preschool. I'm not kidding. I was crazy about a boy named Clayton. Loved him. Um, did it last? No. We, we, we actually dated again in the sixth grade. Dated again. Came around in, around middle school. Like, we were like, he was my little, like, preschool love. Like sleeping buddy? And, um, and then, um, we did it. Um, and then, um, we did. Um, we did. Um, um, we did. Um, um, um, we did. Um, um, um, um, we did. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um in sixth grade for a month.

Starting point is 00:24:57 And I broke up with him. So you broke his heart? Yes. Do you think you broke his heart? No. No. He broke your heart for the first time. Oh boy.

Starting point is 00:25:07 That's calm. I was like madly in love with this same guy my whole life basically. And then we dated after college. He's a wonderful person. But I like was in love with him forever and he was like, would never give me the time of day. Like I don't know what it was. was about me. But he just wouldn't give me the time of day. He just kind of, I don't know, didn't like me like that. Did it feel, how did you feel the fact that you guys dated later in life?

Starting point is 00:25:36 Like, did that feel like some kind of, I don't know. It was like, I think I needed to do it. Yeah. It's like, it kind of just needed it to happen. And then it did. And then check it off. Yeah. Like, we went our separate ways. And I think, I don't know what he's doing, but I hope he's happy. And yeah. He's definitely not winning as much as you are. Winning. Winning? Winning. Winning? Winning? I'm sure he's winning in his way.

Starting point is 00:26:00 Yeah, I know. It's all relative. It is. It is. Not everyone wants to be the star of multiple TV shows. I don't understand that mentality, but sure, I'll accept it. I'll accept it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:26:14 And an embarrassing story? An embarrassing story, most of middle school was so horrifically cringy. I don't know. have any specific story. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to. I mean, honestly, what you were saying earlier about, like, I think in a very heartfelt way, the, the, the, the stories about that teacher is not, it's not so, it's not so embarrassing, but I think it's like, what we're looking for is that, um, it's, it's that unique vulnerability that we all seem to have at that point in time. Um, it's, my experience was, there's actually, as you said, it's kind of was

Starting point is 00:26:50 also sort of embarrassing, vulnerable, cringy that it's like, it's like, Like, I don't really have, I mean, we just finished writing a book about all this. Yeah. And it was hard for me to think of like one. Just one stands out. Yeah. It's just kind of like the entire time I was like. One that's not also going to make people be like, oh.

Starting point is 00:27:08 Yeah. I'm also like, I'm good. Yeah. I don't want if like, I just, I have been an anxious kind of like embarrassed person my whole life. I do not know why I decided to follow the path of someone. who is visible in any way. Well, this is actually what I want to ask you about. So that shift from loving something

Starting point is 00:27:35 to it becoming a feasible path in life. Like it goes from the thing that maybe is like, you know, first of all, you're at an age as a child where you're not thinking about something being professional, nor should you, you know. And then you start to come of age. You realize that this art, form is meaningful to you and then finally you're mature enough to be like well i could do this for

Starting point is 00:28:01 money i could i could do this for a thing that like maybe i could do the thing i love like i'm interested in that shift when you when you thought i'm going to try that i'm going to try to like live out a dream more or less you know even though it's probably not the way you were thinking of it that's yeah i've It never occurred to me to really pursue anything else, but I also didn't feel like I was good at anything else. Like, I didn't, nothing else gave me that same feeling of confidence. Because, like I said, I was an embarrassed kid. I wasn't confident.

Starting point is 00:28:34 I've never really had a lot of confidence, I guess. And being on stage made me feel confident. I knew I was a good. singer um because people told me but like if people hadn't told me i don't know if i would have known and um but i wanted to be on stage because my dad had been on stage he was an actor um when he was younger and um he did a few plays at like a theater in our town and i was like i want to do that and then i was hooked from seven years old like i that applause that thing that being on stage rehearsing your lines and like i loved it i lived for it and

Starting point is 00:29:17 And so they just couldn't stop me. And then all of a sudden, I was nine, they were doing Annie. They actually truly, like, talking about my first heartbreak. My first heartbreak was not playing Annie. Like, I'm not kidding. That was, I was so utterly devastated. I had never experienced such, like, grief and sorrow in my life. I was very blessed.

Starting point is 00:29:41 I am very blessed. But I cried for days. I couldn't get over it. So like, no boy could compare to the heartache. I felt it not playing any. Wow. But that even just kind of like lit the fire more. I wanted to keep evolving and keep growing and keep singing.

Starting point is 00:30:03 And when I was in high school, I just, like, we just kind of deciding where you're going. I had a friend who was a year older than me and had gone to AMDA. And she loved it. And she was telling me the things she was learning. and there was no math and there was no science. Utopia. It was just like, oh, I get to go, like, feel good about myself and do the thing I love and learn more about it and meet other people who also love it. So going to Amda was like I met my soulmates.

Starting point is 00:30:31 I met the people I felt like I'd been missing out on for my whole life. People who loved what I loved and wanted to be better and to learn more and to work hard. and it was a dream. Where is it? It's here. It's in New York. Yeah. That's what I thought.

Starting point is 00:30:50 So you were, so was coming to New York, I mean, it's not that far, but was it not that far, but it was still a big move then. Well, it's not that far practically

Starting point is 00:30:59 compared to what, you know, but it's like you come to the big city, right? Yeah. Was it that? It was a, yeah, a small town,

Starting point is 00:31:05 big city thing. It's only like two and a half hours away from where I grew up, but it was a big change and I was 18 and, And I had for a moment, my mom actually like begged me to go to a four-year school, get a degree, go to somewhere in New Jersey. I think she was really nervous about me going that far away. But I mean, one-track mind, and I'm still like that.

Starting point is 00:31:26 I'm a torus. If I get my mind on something, I will do everything in my power to make that thing happen. I will see it through to the end. That's just how I am. I don't really let go of things easily. You did date your lifelong crush? I did. You know, you were like, I'm going to.

Starting point is 00:31:45 Just like, I'm going to see it through to the end. It wasn't that calculated, but it just kind of happened. But I'm actually, I'm connecting the dots. I'm seeing how determined you are. But I do. I'm very determined. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:58 And so I went to AMDA. And I had never had any thought of working in TV or film at all. I actually was actively not wanting to do that. I didn't want to take the, they offered some like, screen acting classes. I was like, that's not for me. I don't like that. And I always was like, I'm not an act. I'm a singer and then an actor and then a dancer. Because, you know, musical theater school, that's what you do. I'm a dancer who sings. I'm a singer who dances. I'm an actor who sings. Whatever. I just always thought of myself. I want to, I want to be on Broadway.

Starting point is 00:32:34 I want to like do a national tour. Like I was so excited to get out there and audition for these things. And then four months after I graduated from AMDA, I got an audition for what I thought was a web series because it was going to be online. And this is orange and new black, right? Wow, right out of AMDA. Yeah, it was, well, I had gotten an agent from AMDA, which they had this thing called panel night. You could audition in front of managers and casting directors and agents. And so I was with a small agency in New York here. And I also often forget where I am. I'm literally like, where am I? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:33:14 And like, I thought, okay, maybe I'll go on some commercial auditions and that'll help pay the bills. But my really want to do is audition for theater. And then I went on this audition for Orange is the New Black. And I was like, it's going to be on the Internet. I don't know. It's a web series. And then I get on set.

Starting point is 00:33:33 Just to be clear, you thought that because Netflix, right? Netflix was like a... Streaming didn't exist. Orange is the New Black and House of Cards were the first. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And like letter candy or something. Yeah, there was like one other streaming and but streaming wasn't a thing and also like I remember in the beginning they didn't even want you to say binge watch. I think that they felt like it had a negative association or something. They wonder why. Yeah. But they would be like don't say like binge watch the series say the series

Starting point is 00:34:04 say the series drops. So I don't know. Watch it at your own pace. Take it slowly. Just like And a healthy, digestive property. Watch it weekly. Watch it weekly if you want. When did the penny drop for you? I don't know what that means. When did you realize what orange is the new black was, what Netflix was? How did that all come together?

Starting point is 00:34:26 Like while we were shooting because, you know, I get on set and like Laura Prepawn's there and Natasha Leone. And like, Andrew McCarthy was directing an episode and I was like, what are you doing here? This is a web series. This is a web series. And also, like, a giant crew. It's going up on my space. Yeah, me and Delario was there. I mean, like, I didn't even know what, like, second team meant.

Starting point is 00:34:49 So they called second team. And I was like, just stand in on my mark. What does that mean? Second team for, second team is, are stand-ins who come in. Yeah, like for lighting and camera positioning. All actors do, like, touch-ups or whatever. And it's very hierarchical. Yeah, no, it's stupid.

Starting point is 00:35:06 Now calling in first team. It's like, oh, geez, guys, okay. Yeah. Winners. Okay, now losers. Also, another thing with the language, you know, is like inviting. Like, we're going to invite you. As though it's an invitation. Not like, they need you. So for so many years, I just say the dumb joke.

Starting point is 00:35:21 Like, I decline the invite. No, I don't think I'll, um, my RCP is no. Yeah. But thank you so much for the invitation. I still don't actually get tired of that joke. I say it all the time. But yeah, I think being on set. And then, of course, the show.

Starting point is 00:35:39 drops in July 2013. And also, I was relatively new to Instagram. A lot of people were. It wasn't what it is now. Whatever, that is now. And like overnight, overnight stars out of the show,

Starting point is 00:35:58 like Danielle Brooks and like Samir Wiley, Taylor, Taylor Schilling, like, skyrocket. And it's just, I don't know that it's a great, thing but it's it happens it's the way things work now um i was just glad to be there honestly i had no idea they kept writing for me they kept putting me in and then like genji cohen was our showrunner and creator of the series and i was like a huge fan of weeds

Starting point is 00:36:28 so it was just cool like i i i still can't believe that happened that's crazy that was your first job. Yeah. My first audition. That's insane. Wow. I never quite knew that. That was your first audition. That was my first TV audition ever. Wow. And then I, you know, after that, I did thousands and thousands and thousands of auditions that I haven't gotten. Stick around. We'll be right back. All right. So let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity

Starting point is 00:37:18 i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right?

Starting point is 00:37:51 And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I was doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that i use i use i use uh the the what is it called liposomal vitamin c and it tastes delicious like really really good um comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i do it i think it tastes great

Starting point is 00:38:23 i use the liposomal uh glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and eight which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And, yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. Do you want to try them out?

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Starting point is 00:42:40 Right. Yeah. But you went back to it. I mean, you did cabaret. I did get to do camera. Was there anything else that you've done in theater since? I've done some. Well, right, the summer after I graduated from Amda, I did a show in Connecticut called Liberty,

Starting point is 00:42:52 which was a new musical about the Statue of Liberty. And I played the statue of Liberty. Which was very fun. I got to belt my face off and it was like, it was great. Did you have to wear a green makeup? I had, no. I actually, it was like, because you know, it's a, she's a, she's bronze. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:10 Oh, she's just covered in ox. She's oxidized. Yeah, it's like oxidized and that's why she's green. Interesting. But I did have a costume change where I changed into a green. Um, audition to play Linda. It was just no makeup and corn rose. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:28 And fear. is what you saw on the face. The secret ingredient. Wow. That was brilliant. I went into my audition with my sides in my hand, physically shaking because I had no idea what was going on. I didn't really know my lines because I didn't know what to do.

Starting point is 00:43:43 I just read them off the page. And Jen, Houston, bless her, bless that woman, was like, yeah. Okay. She's shivering. She's really frightened. Let's put her in front of a camera. Yeah. Did Handmaid's Tale happen?

Starting point is 00:43:59 Like, because I'm just thinking, like, you went from that to a show that was, I mean, we don't need to compare them. There's just, but it's huge, you know, I mean, well, yes, that too, actually, yes. Actually, interesting, yes, yeah, confined. I wouldn't have used that, but that's completely what it is. You're right. Yeah. But also a show that was extremely successful, extremely acclaimed. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:24 So I'm wondering about how much time passed from like those first couple years of Orange to Handmaids? Orange. I was only in the first season. So we shot that until February 2013. The show came out in July 2013. I auditioned for The Handmaid's Tale in June 2016. I will say those three years felt like a lifetime. I can imagine.

Starting point is 00:44:52 It was like, I worked on one other show, and then I was starting the process of moving to L.A. I was auditioning. I was doing, like, the pilot season, auditioning for everything, getting nothing. I also, like, had a relationship that was still in New Jersey, and it was all very confusing. Yeah. And there were moments where I was really not as interested in pursuing a career on screen. I was thinking like maybe I should just go back try to do musical theater

Starting point is 00:45:24 but you know everybody I had been on this big show and it was like you kind of got to follow that thing and then I had a bad experience on a set and I just kind of wanted to quit altogether and I just I've always just kind of been like

Starting point is 00:45:41 well hope I can leave whenever I want like I still love it so I'll still do it but if I want to go I can just go. I'm capable of doing other things in my life. I'm not entirely sure what they are. Like, I'm not sure how I would turn them into a career. But as of right now, I still love it, so I'm going to keep doing it.

Starting point is 00:46:05 Can I ask Maddie, without sharing anything, you don't want to share, what about the experience made you want to quit? Oh, it was just horrible. I felt really unprotected and, like, taken advantage of. And I didn't like, like, it wasn't a job that I took because I, like, loved the story or, like, I loved the character. Actually, really didn't like the character, but I wanted to, can, I, a win was a win, you know. The problem on that job, not you, the other one, was how unprotected I felt. There was no intimacy coordinator. There was, like, oh, well, the woman's a director, so you should be comfortable.

Starting point is 00:46:44 But, like, just because a woman is directing doesn't mean she's, like, taking care. of me. And I didn't understand how to take care of myself or advocate for myself. So I really learned on the job. So when anybody asked me about like our scenes that we had to do, I'm like, Penn's been doing this for a long time. I've been doing this for a long time now. Like we, we understand who we are, our boundaries.

Starting point is 00:47:08 And like, but I had to learn that on the job. I had to learn how to advocate for myself. And, yeah. I don't, I just, I love intimacy coordinators. I'm so glad that they exist. I'm also glad when they, they allow actors like myself to say, I'm good. I'm comfortable and I'll let you know if I'm not. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:30 Because also I need that autonomy as well. But I just think of someone 21 years old like I was when I did this job and feeling so lost, no one to talk to, no protection, no feeling of safety because you don't want to be like the squeaky wheel and you don't want to ruffle any feathers and just kind of keeping your mouth shut and doing the job, which I got through it, I'm fine, but I really had to learn how to speak up for myself.

Starting point is 00:48:03 Yeah, that sucked. Whatever, I'm fine now. I'm interested in like, so going from Orange and New Black, like these are the tent poles of your, career if you were to look at a resume right you know like and you said it yourself like confined women yeah which is interesting you know handmade's tale and then of course you've been a part of other things but then this show you i'm curious if you know like anybody you you had periods of

Starting point is 00:48:39 uncertainty insecurity one you know questioning am i going to do this and then you know at the same time you have like such confidence as a performer and as an artist i'm wondering if um you started to feel a connection to or agency within this idea like oh i i'm starting to build a career that has a path where i'm playing women where there's like importance here there's like social relevance there's like something i can mine in my own experience you know i guess i'm just wondering if especially when it came to my show our show you where you were like really making i think like a conscious decision you know you know that you've been on this show handmaids right it's like that's a clear thematic thing you're like okay this i'm jumping onto this show you know

Starting point is 00:49:33 like i'm wondering how that was for you and how you've been there's there's a lot of different questions in this um you know because it's like it's I'm wondering about you as an artist thinking about, like, femininity and, like, rights for women on one hand. And then also just as an artist, like, getting to do things you care about. Yeah. I was so lucky. I mean, this job, you kind of encapsulates both. And, I mean, so does Handmaid's Tale.

Starting point is 00:50:05 It wasn't, I wasn't aware of it at the time of the importance of Orange is the New Black and kind of the life that that would take on, especially many more seasons down the line. I've felt so many, so many times over the years. Like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I don't know. I don't really know what my path should be. Am I just like falling into things because it's there? Like, sometimes you just take a job because you kind of have to take a job. And I haven't always felt a ton of choice. But I do think that the industry is changing and has changed a lot since I started. I mean, you've been doing this for 120 years, you know. So I do feel like the landscape has changed, but I've also gained confidence as a performer and as an advocate for myself and for others. But like

Starting point is 00:51:05 doing, after the first season of Handmaids, Handmaids, I was just so excited to do because I was a fan of the book and such a great character like so oh i mean those sides those first sides that i read i was like oh i'm in i'm ready um because i like to do things that i like to transform i like to use like physicality like vocal uh and like a full change i like to go as far as i can um because it feels good and i like it and um jeanine was a big change and Then right after the first season of Handmaid's Tale, I did the movie Cam, which truly changed my life, which is about a woman who is a, like a sex worker. She's a Cam girl. And she like gets her identity stolen, which is something that I, not even her identity stolen, like an algorithm almost like steals her image and steals her face, basically.

Starting point is 00:52:06 And it's really like what I loved about it, and I remember talking to our director, Daniel and the writer Issa about it, it's like, her name's Alice. Alice could be a Twitch streamer, she could be a YouTuber, she could be any person who exists online. But the story we're telling is about a camgirl. So it's not only like her face and her likeness and her words and her voice, it's also her body, her sexuality, which, Which is what, I mean, there was just that thing recently about, like, Scarlett Johansson. The AI. Yeah. And she's in particular, like, been so, like, vocal about how that affected her and how violating it is.

Starting point is 00:52:53 But it also happens to people, like, deep fakes on, like, on websites. It's awful. And our writer, he said. They use Penn's voice. AI stuff uses Penn's voice on stuff. Are you kidding? Yeah, I'm not aware of it being on many points. No, not on porn, sorry. Sorry.

Starting point is 00:53:08 Not on fake porns, but his voice also gets used by AI. I'm sure. So we can verify what's this thing with Scarlet Johansson? They use her voice. Some company asked if they could use her voice and she said no and then they used it anyway. They used an AI version of her voice. It was like exactly like her. Which is that so ironic.

Starting point is 00:53:24 After she declined. Yeah. She did that film. Yeah. She was so good in her. Yeah. That's an incredible film. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:30 I love that movie. But also about like our connection to. technology and um cam was just i mean it was incredible learning experience but it also it was my first time like really like leading and feeling um confident in that and then there's also the you mean coming from like admittedly iconic supporting roles to being like is that what you mean yeah yeah yeah and i felt it was cool it was great i got to play two characters it was awesome um but it was also a huge step outside of my comfort zone like i am not not, I don't, I'm not like a sexy girl online, you know. I don't do it. It's not who I,

Starting point is 00:54:15 I just don't do like, hey, I'm sexy girl. I don't know. And whoever you do, God bless you. And I like your photo, double tap. You know, but it was very scary. It was, um, but I wanted to tell this story. It was also written by Isamesei, who, um, who was a cam girl and spoke about, like basically getting her identity taken from her online. Like she would post this stuff on her campsite that makes her money. And people would just like rip it from that site and put it on, I don't know, porn hub or something with like her name stripped away and only just like hot brunette does blah, blah, blah. Like all of the work that she put into it, her body, her voice, her life just stripped away for someone else to make money.

Starting point is 00:55:03 And so it's kind of about that. I know that talking about porn isn't really your vibe here on Podcrushed. It's going to bring it in you on. But it's like I was really proud of that job and to like lead and to feel really bolstered by this crew, incredible crew, incredible filmmakers. And by Issa specifically, who was such a champion of mine and also of making something artistic about. something that's so all like always so exploited which is the the feminine form um and she really kept her eye on making sure i was safe and i was comfortable and confident and i could call cut on certain things and i could really choreograph things myself and um it gave me a lot of it really

Starting point is 00:55:57 empowered me but yeah and i'm grateful for it it changed my life let's talk about janine a little bit and then we'll talk about Bronte. Janine, I can't think of any character who's like Janine. I do feel like a lot of characters are that you can think of other characters who are similar, but she feels like a one of one in sort of, I don't know, I can't think of anyone else like her in fiction. And you talked about that excitement when you saw the sides. And I'm just curious, like, how you, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:56:29 how do you balance someone like her? Like she has such tenderness and then she has like moments of ferocity. and you play her so well and you're kind of unrecognizable as Janine. Like you really lose yourself in her. It's incredible. She's a lot of fun. But she's also,

Starting point is 00:56:45 when we first meet Janine, she's kind of out of her mind. Yeah. But what I didn't want that to be is like, oh, she's the crazy one. Like she is, I think she's made a choice to check out. And I think that it's,

Starting point is 00:57:04 it's crossed her mind to check out of this realm. But she knows that she has a child somewhere, Caleb, who is her child from before Gilead. And so the way that she stays and the way she maintains is to check out mentally and see that silver lining and to make the best of every situation. But even in that, like, she's not gone. That fire that we see when we first,

Starting point is 00:57:34 year at the Red Center is still there. And that has kind of been the theme for me of the whole show is that who you are before you enter Gilead or whoever these women were before they entered Gilead, they can't get rid of it. You can't turn someone into like a womb, like a walking womb and eliminate the personhood from that. And I think we see that actually in the final season of The Handmaid's Tale is that the June that we meet is still there. The Janine that we meet in these first episodes is still there. The Moira. I don't care about Serena Joy, unfortunately.

Starting point is 00:58:14 But I don't know why people do. I'm like, why are we? What do you mean? Show me. Bring me back. Yeah. I just saw a comment the other day that it was just like, I want a happy ending for Serena Joy.

Starting point is 00:58:25 And I was like, why, girl? Why? When did she earn that? No, no. I don't know. Maybe one of the most evil. Like, yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:35 Come on. You, this season, I'm all cut up. I love the handmaids too. I mean, you know, love it. Right. I'm terrified by it. Yeah. But you, we see such a different side to Janine in this season and like more boldness.

Starting point is 00:58:52 Like some, like you're saying, all of that existed before. But we see it more in this season. Maybe a little bit more aggressive. how does it feel to play her in that way? Oh, I'm so glad that our writers over the last six seasons have allowed Janine to evolve. They could have easily been like, and that's the crazy one. And we'll just keep her as the crazy one for all six seasons

Starting point is 00:59:19 and as like on an occasional, an occasional like comedic relief and just the one that everyone's trying to bring back down to earth. but they allowed her to become grounded, which is only natural after this much time in this world. And she has suffered so much and seen so much. And I don't think she's jaded. I think she's just become more grounded. Her feet are more planted on the ground.

Starting point is 00:59:46 I'm so grateful for that because it is now where she will be much more useful to the revolution. And she's also spent years and years with June, who is, who's a different kind of fighter than Janine, but is a fighter. And I think that a lot of June has rubbed off on Janine. And we see that, yeah, in this final season.

Starting point is 01:00:15 Yeah. And she's, I'm really, I'm really grateful. I grew up on the show. I mean, I was 24 when I started and I'm 32 now. And as I grew up, so did Janine and learned things about myself through her and about being a woman and about being maybe a mother someday and a friend. And yeah, she's just taught me so much. So Elizabeth Moss has directed you. She came on our show.

Starting point is 01:00:49 She paid you the greatest compliments. I want to pay you. Which we talked about. Let's say it. Let's say it again. Let's remind everyone, Elizabeth Moss said that, Maddie is the greatest talent of this generation

Starting point is 01:00:58 and the greatest actor of her generation. And I just want to know what is your relationship with her? I love that woman. I really do love her. I mean, Lizzie is she's like the kindest, warmest,

Starting point is 01:01:12 like she's incredibly loving. She's she makes you feel special like when you are with her. She has a way of like of just making you feel like known. and appreciated and especially like after so many years and in a big ensemble and um even when we first

Starting point is 01:01:31 met though like with all these girls she doesn't know us yet um she just has such a way of really just making you feel welcome and a part of it and and an important part of it and i've i'm so grateful to her for that and i idolize her like she is i think the best jack at actress, the best actress of, I was like, oh, what's that? Oh, many generations. A actress, it's my own lingo. I think that she's the best actress of many generations. She's so, like, effortlessly skilled.

Starting point is 01:02:14 I mean, her show, oh, my God, top of the lake, that Jane Campion show, is unbelievable, if you haven't seen it. It's freaking amazing. And also, like, a master of accents. and of, like, very, very fine, almost imperceptible, like, movement of the face and of the eyes and that can convey so much, especially on a screen. Yeah, she's wonderful. And as a director, she's like, she cares so deeply about these characters. She knows as much as you do about them.

Starting point is 01:02:49 I mean, she's given it so much thought. And especially to see her come into her own as a director in this final season, she directed the first two and the last two of the series finale of yeah and it's excellent and um even jeanine's last scene i did an a d r like two weeks ago i was inconsolable with like just the i felt honored with the way that she gave those final moments to this character who uh who i've loved so deeply for so many years and i felt from her that love in the way it kind of finishes out. She's incredible.

Starting point is 01:03:29 I mean, that's so sweet. Okay, so I have to ask you about Fred Waterford's death. It was, I mean, brutal, epic. And at one point I think I thought, well, this episode is out after people will have seen you. They'll have seen the finale and how it ends for Joe Penn. And at one point I thought maybe his end would be more like Fred Waterford. Like Fred's?

Starting point is 01:03:52 Yeah. Like a group of women. tearing him apart. There is something similar. Yeah, yes. There is that one element. One appendage. That is lost.

Starting point is 01:04:06 Yes. You're talking about his pinky in season two, right? No? No. His toe in season three. Lost your toe. Well, the joke of Joe is that every season he loses some appendage and I would make the joke with them. I'm like, so the final season has got to be the dick, right?

Starting point is 01:04:20 I guess that was you. We're going to keep going. I actually forgot. that I've been making that joke, and I don't want to take credit for it. I forgot I had made the joke, and I'm sure they had forgotten that I had made the joke. I cannot believe. I cannot believe that I had just remembered this. But yeah, I used to make the joke, like, well, we're just going to, we're going to have to, we're going to, we're going to, there are that many appendages.

Starting point is 01:04:41 Yeah. You're going to have to eventually. Wow. I'm just in my own moment. Full circle here. Whoa. We got to go all the way. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:50 Here is to Van Gogh. You know, we've really got to go for it. It's been done. Yeah. No, well, I guess my question was, do you think that there's a world where that would have been satisfying for you, viewers? For all the women to tear him apart? Yeah, tearing him apart limb from limb.

Starting point is 01:05:08 Or just like a bloody, brutal death instead of what I thought was really satisfying, which is what ended up happening. Yeah, I think it totally could have, and it would have been deserved. I don't think it's as delicious as the ending that Joe does have. But, I mean, what's so special about special? What's so satisfying, I think, about that ending for Fred Waterford is that it is at the hands of the people he has, as hurt. Hurt is not strong enough of a word, but I have, like, I will say,

Starting point is 01:05:47 for me, for Janine, Janine never hurts anyone. She never kills anyone. She never, there's no act of violence by her hands against someone. And I'm really grateful that that was maintained through the end of the series. Because it's not her nature. It's not her spirit. And it's very similar. I talk about this.

Starting point is 01:06:09 It's very similar to Bronte. Like delivering justice to Joe is not Bronte's job. She came to get answers. And she is here to let justice. be served, but not by her hand, you know? But do you think she was aiming for his penis, or that's an accident? No, that's definitely, no, it's unequivocally an accident. An accident.

Starting point is 01:06:32 It is meant that's, yeah. I think I say something like I accidentally made him into a human Kendall or something. Yeah. Which is so funny. But yeah, no, the vibe was like, ugh. It was kind of, oops. Never had a gun before. But in terms.

Starting point is 01:06:47 So it was God's hand. God's hand, Joe's penis. From your hands to, no, I won't finish that. But with Handmaids, I do think that there's always, the show is far more visceral. It's far more visceral. Like what we don't show on you is in its own way. You know, and I think there is a certain responsibility.

Starting point is 01:07:13 Well, you could really slice it either way with either show. It's like, is it more responsible or less responsible to show it or not show it, right? It's like they each has its own value and each has its own drawbacks. Yeah. And with handmaids, it's, it's a far more graphic explicit visceral experience of, like, seeing abuse of women. It just, that's what it is, and it has taken that mantle, and it explores it so much in that direction. You know what I mean? Like, so it's just that it's its own, it's like it's its own world of a way to explore that theme.

Starting point is 01:07:42 You know what I mean? And then you, our show, is, is another one. You know, they're very, they're very different. I, they're exploring similar themes, but I think, I think, I think, very differently and actually maybe if I was like a media historian and had seen the end of Handmaid's Tale, which I have. You know, I think there's something to be said about like, okay, so this is one way that we deal with this icon. Rip him apart. Have the women who he's abused, rip him apart. And then there's another, which we'll talk about in the other episode.

Starting point is 01:08:14 Yeah. But there is a difference, I think, in the fact that that Handmaid's Tale has very clear villains, especially in the first few seasons. And we, in watching you as a fan, the protagonist or I mean, the anti-hero, he's like, I don't even know how to describe him. He's the villain, but it's not so cut and dry. Like in Handmaidstale, it is cut and dry, especially in the first few seasons, bad. They're evil. These people are evil. These people are evil. These people have, are the architects of houses of horrors. And deserve to be to Orly. them from limba in my opinion um in mattie's opinion not janine's i don't think but um yeah and that becomes a little more blurry as the seasons go on i mean june becomes an anti-hero like a true

Starting point is 01:09:03 anti-hero and uh does really really questionable things um and she's hard to root for at a certain point i think um but also that's just like the way we treat women i guess it's like if you're not the perfect victim, then you're a villain. So, which I think people will think about Bronte, too. I think that they won't, I think that people won't like Bronte. I mean, they already don't because she's not love her, Beck, but that's just the fans of the show, of that show. But I think Bronte is not a, not a perfect, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:09:42 I don't know what box to put her into, really. I do. I think I mean I think that she's more interesting than at least Joe by the end to be honest I think if there's a when you were describing all that now there's like a like a visual metaphor I was thinking of in terms of landing the plane that like you as Bronte are landing the plane like you know maybe covered in blood and I was just like I can't do it anymore I can't do it anymore there's nothing left for me to do I can't do it I've said the thing you have to do it I'm like then we're doing this thing we're landing this plane so so that's I really have

Starting point is 01:10:17 felt, I've been saying it in all my press. I think by the end, it was made to be this way. The writers did it. You did it with your performance. I did with mine. It's like, I just feel like what the point is is that we're trying to make her

Starting point is 01:10:32 the one you want to see in the end, not him. Yeah. Like at this point, like, F this man. I'm going to, no, I'm going to say it, fuck this man. Oh. Like his, yeah, shots fired. It just really, it just, I really even felt in that last scene, like, you know, you're, you, you, you were doing in what Bronte had to do, well, Louise at that point is like, far more compelling than Joe. What more could he do to be like, just to deny and coerce and be like, no, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:11:09 So, you know, again, hats off. Thank you. Hats off to you. I think it's really incredible, though, that right through to the end. Joe is who he is. Like, I think that what keeps people so invested in him and why they feel he's so redeemable is he could change because it's that thing.

Starting point is 01:11:29 I can change him, you know? It's that thing you want to believe you can. And to the very, very final moments of this series, he cannot take responsibility. Yeah. And he can't change. He just can't. I mean, that's the way I see it.

Starting point is 01:11:44 And I'm glad that they didn't, try to make him change or it's true every single season he thinks he's changed he can change I can do this oh nope don't do that don't go there and he does inevitably because he's going to because he can't help himself because it's who he is and it's actually remarkable that like the twist at the end of every season is that he's the same yeah everybody's like I cannot There he goes again. No. Got to see next season.

Starting point is 01:12:17 Okay. See if he does it again. Yeah. We're in so much denial that they actually pulled off the twist in season four that he's the Eat the Rich Killer. Yeah, right. It's like, how is it that we didn't know that he's the star in the serial killer show? And there's like a mass murder killing people and we don't know that it's him. Actually, seriously hats off to the writers.

Starting point is 01:12:35 Yeah. Repeatedly being like, and it's a. A rabbit and a hat. You know, it's like, it's really amazing. Yeah. It's amazing that this show has done what it's done for so long. My goodness. And we'll be right back.

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Starting point is 01:16:11 August 2025 marks 20 years since Hurricane Katrina changed New Orleans forever. There have been many accounts of the storm's devastation and what it took to rebuild, but behind those headlines is another story, one that impacted the lives of thousands of children. Where the schools went is a new five-part podcast series. about what happened to the city's schools after the Levy's broke and how it led to the most radical education experiment in American history. Hosted by Ravi Gupta, a former school principal, where the schools went traces the decades of dysfunction before Katrina

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Starting point is 01:17:09 where the schools went is a story you need to hear. From the branch, in partnership with the 74 and Midas Touch, where the schools went is out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast and start listening today. There's a point in the finale where Bronte says to Joe, like you erased my intuition.

Starting point is 01:17:31 I don't know if you say it aloud to him or you say in your head, but it sounds at the she says it, yeah, with a gun in there. Yeah, such, that was just like, oh my gosh, I feel like I've been in that situation before. I've been in positions like that. Less rain, same gun. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:47 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes in relationships, but also just in life, like I feel like I'm always trying to like listen to my intuition, but it's like clouded by so many other things. I'm really swayed by other people's opinions. And I love how in you, Bronte seems to lean on like the other women in her life when that does happen.

Starting point is 01:18:10 And she's like getting sucked into Joe's orbit more. She leans on the other women in her life who kind of like bring her back to reality. And I was curious if you feel like there's been any times in your life where you've been in that position where there have been women in your life who have helped you gain a new perspective on a situation or brought you out of something. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, what I do love so much about, especially toward the end of the series with Bronte, is that she has lost herself so much to this man and to who he's, just the lies that he's told and the manipulation and the gaslighting. And it's, and you lose yourself in that if you've ever been in that kind of situation with not even like a romantic partner with anyone who, who makes you feel like you're just spinning in circles. You need someone, someone who knows you to kind of hold your hand and like walk you back to sanity.

Starting point is 01:19:13 Like abuse dynamics are so, it's like why abuse dynamics is the way I put it is because it's not cut and dry what abuse is for a lot of people. Like, you know, violence, yes, abuse. screaming yelling like that is more clear like vicious language demeaning language but getting someone to spin in a circle inside their mind to the point where like I don't even know what we're talking about anymore like to watch that happen or to experience it yourself it's it's so frightening like and to see it happen to someone else like I've been that person for my

Starting point is 01:19:57 friends to kind of walk them back to sanity and to themselves. It's the most insidious part of what Joe does, I think. I mean, besides the literal murder. Let's just, let's make that clear. But he makes Bronte lose

Starting point is 01:20:17 who she is, not even just what she set out to do, because what she set out to do was to get answers about Beck. He she questions herself, her intuition, her gut instinct, her own friends. And it's so, he does it so tactfully

Starting point is 01:20:37 without really making her think, like, is he? Is this wrong? Like, yes, she's questioning, sorry. She's so layered, especially in that ninth episode that, like, it's hard to figure out even where she is. But Marianne is the one who brings her back to,

Starting point is 01:20:56 I don't know to herself when she lays out piece by piece I know exactly what you're experiencing I know exactly how you felt he made me feel that too and listen

Starting point is 01:21:10 to yourself and reminds her that like you can trust yourself again you're allowed I don't know that I've necessarily experienced I totally have actually

Starting point is 01:21:24 Um, just questioning, especially when I was younger, um, questioning, what did I do to make this situation happen? Like, this is my fault. I created this because I was also involved with someone who was saying, you created this, you wanted this, you did this to yourself. Um, and I didn't think I did. I didn't think like by a time it got to the point that it did, I'm like, did I ask for this. Did I allow this to happen? How could I have allowed this to happen? And I think what's so important about what she says, what Marianne says, is, no, that's something that happens to other girls. That happens to other women. That happens to stupid women. I'm not stupid. I'm strong. I'm smart. And it can happen to anyone. Like, you can't outsmart yourself, really. Like, if someone can get one small hook into you, next thing you know, You don't recognize yourself anymore. You don't recognize the situation you're in. And you think you put yourself there. And it's tragic. Like, that it can happen to anyone because a really great manipulator is, I mean, it's masterful.

Starting point is 01:22:45 You can't, how can you fight against something like that? Because what you're really doing is you're allowing yourself to be loved. You're allowing yourself to be loved really well. And I mean, luckily, the internet is terrible in a lot of ways, but people understand what, like, love bombing and gaslighting is. I think gaslighting is overused. People don't, I think when you really understand what gaslighting is and you see it. But I think what's, when I see a dynamic like that,

Starting point is 01:23:14 where, like Joe and Bronte, uh, Bronte believes, the good parts of Joe because she's allowing herself to be loved in a way she's never been loved. She allows herself to be taken care of. Meanwhile, that is like a tactic. That is a method.

Starting point is 01:23:35 That is a rule book that he follows time and time again. He finds the very specific thing, the very specific need, the very specific place of, like, void. And he just fills it with love. And I, I think it's a testament to who Bronte is

Starting point is 01:23:54 is that she wants to be open to it and it's just the wrong person. I'm talking in a circle. No, no, no. I actually think probably there's a lot of people listening who first of all would just be interested to hear all of that. But I was even thinking that like there are so many people who are in versions

Starting point is 01:24:14 of a relationship like that that's nowhere near as extreme, obviously. But it's, I think it's always helpful. It's always helpful to hear another person's experience of that dynamic because it's so present. And again, I'm talking about the way it's present in small ways where men, particularly men, I think a lot of men don't realize they have shades of this because I think the way that it starts out is that they're trying to start. survive. No one sets out to become a master manipulator. Nobody's Lex Luthor. You know what I mean? Like men do this because at some point they had to manipulate to survive. And then they don't realize how much they're always in survival mode. And a man is able to make that more charming and

Starting point is 01:25:14 seductive than a woman is to be in survival mode and to manipulate and to be commanding and to fill about spaces you said not with love actual but love seeming you know it's like i can be if i look a certain way well like an act a certain way and that feels like love for a certain amount of time you know what i mean and they are often not really thinking about it that much it's and that's why a man like joe can't change because he's really not able to see himself because he's really not able to accept that he's actually he's not actually able to see himself as a boy and and see the sadness, see the grief, and admit that he has vulnerability and weakness.

Starting point is 01:25:55 And then, you know, anyway, blah, blah, blah. We have to ask you guys about this moment because it's sort of like the, just like the defining moment of the whole series, which is when Bronte delivers this incredible line. The fantasy of a man like you is how we cope with the reality of a man like you. That's in the range, just holding the gun.

Starting point is 01:26:13 And I want to know if you guys can tell us sort of like what it was like to film that moment, the gravity of it as actors, and then watching it back as viewers. Sort of about those two things. Well, I want to give Maddie her flowers because that is where I literally, like, as that scene was happening,

Starting point is 01:26:29 I just thought, this is, she's more compelling in it. Not that has to be this comparison thing, but I really felt like this is better. This is more, this is the point of it all. I always used to say in the seasons prior to this, last one being like, you know, I don't know that it's possible because the way things have to work in television and like you have to kind of keep the star of the show, the star of the show. But

Starting point is 01:26:58 what would be really great is if you just deconstruct it so that nobody wants them anymore and then you give it to a woman and just like tell her story. And so for like the latter half of one episode, we kind of did that. And by the end of that scene, I think, where you deliver the thesis of the whole show, which we all had to figure out over a decade. For us all to realize, like, oh, yeah. Like, and it's a brilliant moment. The way we cope with the reality is backwards. The fantasy of a man like you.

Starting point is 01:27:32 It's how we cope with the reality of man. Yeah, we cope, yes. All together now. I mean, that's just like, as you were delivering that, I was having my own experience of being like, I can't find something new here for Joe to do. What you were doing was new, compelling, awesome. You have all these lines you had to say.

Starting point is 01:28:00 Talk a lot. And you're like, you know, the rain was making it so hard to perform for me, at least. I found that my, I don't know if you remember this. I don't know if I was telling you this, but I was like, I have nothing to do or say to add to this. I'm like, in order to be heard above the rain. And to be on my knees And I was, you know, we were both nearly naked And by the end it was like a lake

Starting point is 01:28:23 You were in a lake It was cold and wet Was it like 2 a.m. also? Was it very late? Yeah, at that point it was probably three. We wrapped that night I think around 430 Wow

Starting point is 01:28:32 You wrapped at 430 Because we had a little bit of an extra Yeah, we did, yeah I wrapped it 430 Running through the No, that's right, you were until the sun up weren't you? Wow

Starting point is 01:28:43 Yeah I was on my way to the Jersey shore Yeah And I just really felt like this is the passing of the baton. Like you had real work to do and you were doing it. And it was so lovely to watch. And I was just like, I can only directed. I do remember your hands like kind of just down to your side.

Starting point is 01:29:03 I mean, my neck muscles literally, I was actually finding it. I was like, I can't, I couldn't speak. I couldn't do it. So I was having to force it up like this. And I was just like, give me. Yeah, I'm spent. And I was thinking to myself Like this is terrible

Starting point is 01:29:18 Like these are his last moments And I am not landing the plane I'm like this I'm like this And it's like also Also as an actor too You know This is this is nothing

Starting point is 01:29:29 The writers did what they needed to do And it's super good I just was like He has nothing new here I knew this man from day one Like this is boring So I was just like You know like

Starting point is 01:29:40 They're coming It's like Shut up bro This is stupid. We've seen it. And the way you're doing has all this, like, nuance and layers. Anyway, I just wanted to say. I didn't expect Joe to beg to be killed, I have to say.

Starting point is 01:29:54 So it didn't feel stupid. It didn't feel, interesting. It didn't feel like, oh, same old Joe. No, it was, it felt new on every front. It felt like he finally was giving up. Yeah. Trying to get out of it again. No, I agree.

Starting point is 01:30:04 I agree with that. So I don't, what I mean is kind of like, thematically, it was exactly what it needed to be. So it was beautiful in that sense. But I think as an actor trying to like, you know, you're always trying to look for something new, I guess, right? And I was like, there's nothing new here. There's nothing new as Joe.

Starting point is 01:30:18 What makes it, like, is that you were really just like, I got nothing. Yeah. And that was so appropriate for the ending. That's where Joe was. Yeah. And I do remember your poor neck. You were just like, I guess, I don't have anything that. It was just utterly spent.

Starting point is 01:30:36 Is it the last thing you guys shot? It was the last thing, other than the final, final scene. Yeah. Because you had to shave your head. And yeah, that's right. Yeah. So it was my last speaking line. And I was just like, I just couldn't do it. Like a shell, like, oh.

Starting point is 01:30:54 I was like, I can't do this anymore. It was perfect. And I mean, also, like, we had been, we'd spent the previous, at least week and a half doing the fight. And like the scene, oh, my God. Frankie made me weep when I watched that. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:12 It is like one of the best performances of the entire series, It's just that moment where it's like, you're the monster. You're the monster under my bed. He's so good. It's so good. Bit of cry. And then Bronte's reaction to it was so good. Yeah, the subsequent scene with you and am I unlovable and like the, like the screaming and the tension and then the fighting and then the water.

Starting point is 01:31:35 And it was just, it was a lot. And, yeah, I love. I love. shooting that episode. Lee probably wouldn't think I loved shooting that episode, but I... No, he knows you did. I did love it. Like, it was so funny, Lee. By the time we got on to nights, because we started on mornings, we started in the daytime. And we got on to nights and I was like, hey, yeah, what's up? He was like, what? Where was this, Maddie, like last week when we were shooting at six o'clock in the morning. I was like, I'm just not a morning person. I'm not, I'm not

Starting point is 01:32:11 going to be super stoked to be awake at 6 a.m. Sorry about that. I was shooting that final scene, saying that line. It was a thing, though, it was like, I tend to overthink. I like to imbue a lot into the characters and playing Janine for so many years. There's so many layers. Vocalizations and like switches and what she's thinking about and like swift turns. And this was so practical. It really was, I just have to lay out really what you are and what you've done and that I'm not going to let you get away with it. I would not give you the, I would not grant you the favor of just killing you. Like it's not the ending that you deserve and we'll talk about the ending more.

Starting point is 01:33:01 Yeah, another episode of this show. Yeah, another episode of Podcrash. Like and subscribe. Big fan. Comments in the section. We do actually have to. Okay. So we have a final question.

Starting point is 01:33:12 Yeah. And just I'll do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Madeline. If you could go back to 12-year-old Maddie, little mads, what would you say or do? Oh, boy.

Starting point is 01:33:28 That really makes me want to cry. I feel a lot of tenderness for 12-year-old Maddie. She was very scared of very. of everything scared of life scared of like who she would be and what she would do and I would just tell her

Starting point is 01:33:46 I would just give her a hug really and tell her that what makes her feel so different is what makes her special I know that sounds so trite but no not dull

Starting point is 01:33:58 being 12 is hard being 12 is really hard just I mean being any age is hard but especially now like being in my 30s and like the day I turned 30 everything just felt so much easier like I granted myself so much more like love than I'd ever given myself before and I would tell her just to keep I don't know

Starting point is 01:34:26 God it gets better he gets so much better it does also don't take that one job it'll get you You ought to be in a waitress, but at what cost? It is amazing that at 12, it can be as hard as it is. Yeah. And that if you told that 12-year-old, like, it's going to be okay. Listen, by the time you're 30, it's going to feel light.

Starting point is 01:34:47 They'd be like, 30? Yeah. 18 years. I think you're going to say, like, like, 14. But also 14 is easier than 12. And, you know, 16 is easier than 14 and 18's easier than that. And 25 is easier than 23. And aging is a gift that is not granted to every person.

Starting point is 01:35:08 And I am so grateful with every year that passes. I'm turning 33 a week from tomorrow. And I'm so excited for what 33 brings. It's my Jesus year. Yeah. Hopefully not the same outcome. Yeah, no. I have nothing to say.

Starting point is 01:35:29 I should have said. I would say something like that. Don't I know? I'm getting married. It's very exciting. It's so incredible to close a chapter on The Handmaid's Tale and to finish out the final chapter of you, which I've been a fan of. I watched it on Lifetime. Like, I'll tell anybody who will listen.

Starting point is 01:35:45 I didn't know that part. I did. I've told you that. But you don't remember. Okay. Well, I didn't listen. But I wasn't listening. I was in character.

Starting point is 01:35:51 Because you weren't talking. Just kidding. Joking. But I, it's a beautiful chapter to close. And maybe I'll. be able to play a woman who's not suffering. So many comments on my Instagram are like, Janine, now you're going to go, like, what are you doing, girl?

Starting point is 01:36:10 Can't we just give this girl a happy ending in some way? Because, you know, everybody's assuming, you know, I end up in the box, which I do, and I end up dead, which I don't. And, yeah, maybe something new. But maybe not. Maybe I'll do the sequel, me. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Starting point is 01:36:29 Love it. It's a sixth and final season. Amazing. Well, Maddie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you guys. So much for having me. It's an honor to be on Pod Crush. Podcrushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at Lemonada. And as always, you can listen to Podcrush ad-free on Amazon music with your prime membership.

Starting point is 01:36:55 Okay, that's all. Bye. I'm so excited to be here. So you know, actually. I don't know if you two know. Uh, you're, you are, is it right to call you a fan of this show? Um, no. I have listened and I love the TikToks. I'm, I think I might be a fan of the Pod Crush TikTok.

Podcrushed - Madeline Brewer

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