Podcrushed - Mona Chalabi

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

The extraordinary journalist Mona Chalabi wins everyone over with her deep intellect and even deeper compassion. Mona is a catalyst for the group's most open and vulnerable conversation yet, touching on mental health, long-term illness, and the death of beloved family members. Want to submit your middle school story? Go to www.podcrushed.com and give us every detail. Follow us on socialsInstagramTwitterTiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada The moment that I got home, I went immediately straight upstairs to the bathroom cabinet, took out my mom's razor, and, like, I'd never shaved my legs before, right? So just kind of like, took out this dry razor and was like dragging the dry razor on my dry skin. But then cleaning off the razor with my thumb, I sliced it right open. And my mom just came home to, like, find me on my mom. the couch with like my thumb hanging open and like one clean strip of hair on my legs and monkey legs everywhere else this is podcrushed the podcast that takes the sting out of rejection one crushing middle school story at a time and where guests share their teenage memories both

meaningful and mortifying and we're your hosts i'm navva a former middle school director i'm sophie a former fifth grade teacher and i'm penned a middle school dropout we're just three beehis who are living in Brooklyn. Wanting to make stuff together with a particular fondness for awkward nostalgia. Well, I struggle with nostalgia. I'm here for the therapy. Guys, my dad called me one day and he was like, you haven't talked about me on the podcast. But you know what happened this week?

I was like, you know what? I'm doing this podcast. I should probably learn a little bit more about the adolescent brain. So I googled adolescent brain and the second link to come up. Can I just say that's really basic? Like you just Googled adolescent brain? I googled adolescent brain. the second link to come up was this video that was put out by the UNICEF Inocente Center,

which is their research center, which is where my dad has worked for the last like seven or eight years. And it was called adolescent brain, second window of opportunity. And I was like, second window of opportunity. I feel like I've heard that one million times. Where have I heard that? And then I realized my dad said that to me so many times. I texted him. I was like, did you work on this video? He was like, yeah, for like six months. It's like, oh my God. And then he sent me all these resources and links. Yeah, I just wanted to plug my dad. So I worked at the UN briefly, and I met with your dad once, and he shared the research.

There's like two periods of plasticity in the brain. The first is like when you're a baby, and the second is early adolescence. And it shaped some of the research that I did. So second shout out to Dale. So Navin knows Sophie's dad better than Sophie does. Yeah, definitely. I was like, oh, yeah, he sent me the 40-page document. I didn't read that.

You're like, oh, dad. Penn has your week, Ben. You know, you can have too much of a good thing I think I'm just overworked, that's all There's a lot of things happening on set that I can't talk about because of lawsuits No, because it would be a spoiler

And then maybe I have a lawsuit against me No, we'll make sure that you do talk about it When the show premieres Once it's out. Yeah, yeah, let's make sure So you have to keep listening to this podcast Yes We've got you until Oh

Oh no Cut it, cut it By the way, I did a poll and asked pod crush listeners what they would like to be called. There were a few front runners. It was crushers, crush crew, crushes. You're omitting the one that you don't like, but they did a lot of them say pod crushers. Right, which is my initial, my creation. It was one of the front runners, for sure.

It was. It was one of the front runners. I actually didn't do that on purpose. I just completely forgot about it. Just blanked it out. Someone suggested angsters. Angsters. Yeah, it's cute.

Angsters instead of gangsters, angsters. Oh, I didn't even get that. But that's pretty good. Yeah. We have a truly incredible guest today. It might sound like we're ranking all the other ones. And we are. This one is truly incredible.

Mona Chalaby is an Emmy-nominated data journalist. Yes, you heard that right. And illustrator who uses her artistry to humanize data and help us understand our world. Her work has been featured in everything from the New York Times, Netflix, to art galleries. I mean, she's had exhibitions in the tape. in the Design Museum, and she currently has an exhibition in the Brooklyn Museum. Mona also hosts a podcast called Am I Normal, which I love because, as you'll see and find out,

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Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dull Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. Mona, can you tell us a little bit about sort of your upbringing in London? What were you like as a middle schooler? Oh, Sherry.

Oh, with you. you. I'll share it all. So yeah, I grew up in East London with my parents and an older sibling and then went to like kind of our equivalent of a charter school. They're called grammar schools. So you passed an exam to get in and then you get a really, really good education for the price of zero dollars. Did you wear those adorable matching uniforms that I see here that are very unlike, because I'm in London, by the way, for context. There's so much. I saw these kids the other day walking down in maroon, like a unique maroon.

Like that maroon they had to find. The pigment is not easy. You don't just get that anywhere. It was a blue and white striped shirt with a sweater and a kilt, a navy blue kilt, yeah, and a blazer. And it's just still so interesting that, so school uniforms are an interesting concept to me, right? The idea of it is that it's another way to help eliminate bullying

because you can, you know, there's just less to pick on. in theory. You can't see people's socioeconomic differences with quite the same nuance. But it's just that like children are such vultures that even if you like level that out, you're still going to hone in on like, but your shoes aren't the cool shoes

because like the shoes are the place where you get to like buy whatever. So yeah, we had a uniform and there was a blazer that was optional and the kids that wore the blazers that just meant you as a nerd. And if you didn't, you know, like... Okay, so you're like a numbers person.

what do you think are, do you know the stats on how uniforms positively or negatively affect bullying or any other kind of trend that uniforms are meant to address? I love, I love that you think that, I'll know these things. You know all statistics. All of them live in your head. Just pull this number. I mean, it's really bad because honestly, I know of a data journalist that like it really incentivizes you to just be like, well, in 1997 it was found that 30%. Like, you can just make up any of them.

Wow. No, I don't know any numbers. I'm afraid, but I think what's interesting to me is I don't really obviously have a counterpoint to judge it against. I've never had an experience of going to school without a school uniform. But what I would say is that it's also interesting that it does put like a bit of financial pressure on families too. Like I remember one of the schools that I attended, my school uniform was secondhand to save money because they're quite expensive to buy. And again, that still offers up an opportunity for bullies because like it was secondhand from this other kid that we knew who was

like a lot bigger than me. So it kind of, it just like, you know, it didn't fit. and you can see that it didn't fit. So Penn brought up that you're a numbers person. Yeah. And I find it to be so inspiring to see a woman in that space. I remember when I was in sixth grade, I was put into honors math for the following year. And I was like, there must have been a mistake.

There had to have been a mistake. They swapped out my test. There's no way. But I did it for seventh grade. I was in honors math. And I had this teacher, Mr. Cargile, who had previously taught at a military school. school. And so he had some unique tactics for how to manage the classroom. And one of them was

he would draw a box at the bottom of the white board. And if he caught you, you know, distracted or not paying attention, he would have you go up to the board and put your nose in the little box. So you can imagine it's against a wall. You have to be kind of squatting, but with your legs spread, it's kind of like it's an awkward position. Yeah. I had to do this once. And he would just continue teaching and you couldn't leave that position until he told you it was okay. You know, it was arbitrary. Whatever time he decided you had learned your lesson, you could go back to your seat. Yeah.

I cannot fathom. I know. Put your nose in the box? That sounds like Joe Goldberg. What I was thinking about is how, you know, after that point, it like became part of my identity that I was just not a math person, not a numbers person. And then I became a teacher. We looked at a couple studies that showed the messages that kids inherit.

it from the world, boys versus girls, about who is good at math, who is more rational, more logical, more numbers-based, and often girls really get the short end of the stick. So anyway, that's a long way of saying that you really inspire me, but I was wondering what was your experience of math and numbers like as a kid and in school? Like, were you encouraged at home and from your teachers? It's such a good question. So I was actually talking to his friend that I saw today about it. I don't think that I was good at maths.

Sorry, we call it maths over here. I don't think I was good at maths at all. And I still don't actually think I'm good at maths and I don't think I need to technically be good at maths to do what I do. But I do remember being filled with a slightly misguided but ultimately helpful sense of self-confidence. And honestly, like I... Regarding math or did this just use this as an umbrella over?

Everything. Everything, Penn. Like, yeah, like, I was actually, I was insecure about how I looked, but when it came to, like, all things school, I think, A, because it was instilled in us that we had passed this exam that, in theory, if you pass the exam, it makes you smart, which in retrospect, I really disagree with because it was an IQ exam, we can have a whole conversation about how dangerous and fucked up the concept of IQ is. Also, to go back to this idea of being in an all-girls school, right? Like, we were just surrounded by teachers that were saying stuff that, again, and actually in retrospect was really bad. It was like sexist. But we were just told, like, your girls, therefore you're smarter. You don't need boys or men.

They're trash. And you're just, your geniuses that are about to get unleashed into the world. Wow. Mona has that, is there like a subliminal or like a subconscious part of your brain that's like, man is trash, man is trash? Because that message was in there at like such a formative time. I love that you think it's subliminal. It is very much on the surface.

Oh, it's there. It's there, yeah. And it's problematic, right? Like, I have men in my life who I love now, and I don't think it's okay to just hate men as a species. And yet it's... Controversial. I mean, I really am trying to consciously unlearn hating men.

No, that is very real. I'm just going to sign out of this. She's going to back away slowly. I think... Let's go back to middle school. I actually did want to ask you something. I was listening to, I don't remember enough if it was a TED Talk or a podcast interview,

but you were talking about this notion that people are told to like follow their passions and paraphrasing you poorly, I think you were like, that's actually not great advice. People should follow their talents. And so I was wondering if, like, if you had followed Tween Mona's passions, where would you be now?

And why do you make that distinction? So good. Because evidently it was not numbers. Or men. It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't. it was like actually I think I've ended up in the same place that I wanted to be

which is like I knew that I wanted to create stuff but I actually felt like I felt actually at the time that I wasn't talented enough necessarily to do it so I kind of followed other stuff on the way back to here but like I was still confident enough in all of these other areas where I was like I'm great at this thing that I was just like okay I would go do those things so I was quite academic I got really good grades so it was just like it seems like a waste to go down a creative route, like if you can get good grades and do other stuff. And also part of my thinking was that, and I was thinking about this this morning as well, like, one of the things that makes middle school interesting is I think it's like when you're first getting like hands on lessons

in capitalism and you have your allowance and you're figuring out like the world of money. And I think I also became hyper aware of like, I need to have a salary one day and I need to earn good money. And I want to like have a home and a car and yeah, it just became a grubby little capital. and I just thought the creative things weren't going to earn me money and so I need to go off and get a sensible job first. So you hated men and math, but you loved money. Exactly.

Your listeners are going to love me. They're going to be like, yeah, what a wonderful person. So you said something earlier that I like, which is that you don't necessarily need to be a proper mathematician to be a data journalist and to find solace and data because one thing listening to your show that I, well, it's the whole.

whole premise of your show, and it seems to be a central kind of, I don't know, pillar of your life and the way you're exploring things and creating now is that you find solace in data. You find solace in, what's another good way to say that? I mean, that's the perfect way of saying it. It's absolutely true. Yeah, it's just this idea that like when you look at statistics, it's just like a collection of people. So when you look at them, it's just like a way of reminding yourself that you're not alone. Like, whatever this thing is that you're going through, whether it's like the most obscure skin rash or heartbreak, like someone else is going through that.

So where are the seeds for that in your life? Like, can you... So some of it is just your way, you know? Some of it is just the way we're all born. We have our own configuration. But then what, as you were growing up, and particularly, you know, I just imagine you having some formative moment, you know? Like, or a series of them.

It's funny, like, that part of your life is super emotional, right? Like, my friendships were everything. Like, I felt big feelings. But also, like, I don't know. It was also quite an intellectual. part of my life. Like, you're figuring stuff out. You're, I don't know, you're having

conversal, like, and you're just spending so much time learning. Like, being in a classroom environment just means that so much of your development is just about what's going on in your brain. So, I don't know, I guess it was I really agree with that. Yeah. It's funny, you're the first person who's put it that way in the entirety of us producing this show. Because I think

like, you know, a lot of the concept leans into the emotionality of these things. But I fully agree with you. Like, my experience as a middle schooler, as a 12-year-old, 13-year-old, it was like I was coming into my intellectual life, which is like my haven, to be honest. I feel now basically the same as I did then.

Like, I remember how I felt listening to music then. I remember how I felt reading then. I don't really feel that different. I feel largely the same. And so for me, because of certain other experiences, I suppose maybe I was shutting out my emotions. But, like, to me, it was a very, it was a very, like, intellectual time of life.

And I just love that you say that. I totally agree. And I also think the other thing that I was figuring out, in addition to my emotions and, like, intellectual processing, was also my moral compass. Like, you see so much. And again, that's the other thing about middle school. Like, there are, like, this fucking weird, dark shit that happens

of, like, the different factions in their year group and, like, vying for power. And you see people behave badly. And watching how that plays out helps you to understand what you view as morally right and wrong. And even, like, watching teachers' behaviour. as well. Like, I remember being like, you're a fucking bad person. I'm sorry, I'm cursing

so much. It's fine. There'll be a little E on this episode. We got an E on everyone. No, you're good. You're fine, Mona. Please keep going. Anyway, like, I really remember, like, the teachers that I liked and the teachers that I didn't like, it wasn't just about fun. It was like,

you're a good person and you're not a good person. Like, I mean, to get super dark, like, there were also teachers that were like, you know, slight sexual perverts. And I remember being like super aware of that and being like, why are you while you're talking to us slowly opening your legs? Oh, man, that's weird.

Wow. Mona, just on this like morality point, I read a study somewhere that said that the number one influence on like a teenager is their peers, like more than family, more than media. But I think that family is still like a huge, you know, there's like all the nature, that's not accounted for. And so I'm just wondering for you, like, what was the interplay of,

like, family and school? And particularly because your background is, you're Iraqi, right? Iraqi British. So I imagine that not everyone in your class was Iraqi British. So also that sort of like other layer of a different culture, sort of how was that interplay for you? Yeah. So I love that you mentioned my ethnicity because I believe there were three Arabs in my school. It was me, my older sister, and this older kid, which is the whole reason that we'd even heard about grammar schools and charter schools, because my parents are immigrants, right? So even to navigate, like, what is this system and what's this exam that you have to take? It had to be through word of mouth from someone else in the community.

Also, I think there's like a ton of Arabs in West London, but not so much in East London. So basically, like, my understanding of my ethnicity was just solely through my family because the only Arabs that I knew were blood relatives, basically. And then there was like the outside world. And for me, I do actually think friends were so formative. Those relationships were just so huge for me And even just if you think about it From a purely time perspective

Like my mum was working all the time So you know you go to school You get on a bus with all of your friends You're spending the whole day with them Then you hang out after school Like literally from 8am to 8pm I was with friends And you see family members for like an hour or two

That's it like you know So just on a time basis yeah I also think things at home were kind of a little bit difficult at times. So my dad wasn't well, which meant that I just like, I think that also shaped my experience of middle school because I just loved not being at home. I really did. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Did you spend a lot of time at school? Like my memories of middle school, like after school, we were just unsupervised at school running amok. And then I became a teacher. And I was like, I can't imagine a scenario in which there would be students just unsupervised

roaming the school grounds but but that was like that was so much of my experience in middle school so much happened in those after school hours when we were roaming the campus was that what it was like for you too yeah we were feral it was great um especially after hours but i have to say actually mentioning like the rules and like people kind of supervising that was one of the things that i did find hard about middle school so and high school so in the UK by the way we don't even have the concept of middle school it's just all one continuous um thing At home, there were, I mean, I don't want to over exaggerate, but it felt like there were no rules.

Like, the household that I grew up in was so free, and that was partly because my dad had been a paediatrician. And literally, like, it was his whole ethos and his understanding of the medicine of working with kids that, like, they figure out the rules themselves. So, like, even right down to, like, we had a huge cupboard that was just stocked with candy and you could eat as much candy as you wanted until you vomited and figure out how to regulate your candy consumption, yeah. But that meant that school was hard

because I just arrived and people were telling me what to do and I was like, I don't get it. Like, who are you adults? What do you think you're doing? Like, I figure things out, you know? All right. So, let's just real talk, as they say, for a second.

That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really

want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and i'm telling you um even before i started doing ads for these guys it was a product that i uh i really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three that I use I use I use the the what is it called the liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out

the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in a morning really good for gut health and although I don't need it you know anti-aging and then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8 which is really good for for I think mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping.

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I'm sure yes to both of those questions. But it's interesting that I'm trying to think about things that stuck, right? And like, I remember like the first time. somebody, like, had said something that was basically racist, and it was like, it was just a real surprise. Like, it was more, like, the surprise was the overwhelming feeling, because I just found myself in, like, a majority white environment. And before that, I hadn't, it had actually been, that white people were the minority. So it was just like, oh, what's happening here? I was just confused and bewildered as opposed to necessarily hurt. I think I was about 10, which is

quite, in some ways, I think that speaks to a certain privilege of, like, growing up in East London that that was like a bit of a surprise and one of my first experiences to get to 10 years old before that's happened. It's kind of surprising. There was still plenty of bullying because, yeah, girls were still able to enforce the patriarchy. But I don't remember them making me necessarily self-conscious of my body. Part of that still came from boys. So we would take the bus home. There was one little fucker that would get on the bus with us. And, you know, the way that you flirt at that age is by just being cruel. And so...

It's a good tactic. Yeah. Only at that age? I know. I know. That's what I was thinking. Like, we'll still kind of use it. Yeah.

Go-to move. And he kind of took... He picked us all off one by one and dissed us all separately. And, you know, he just turns to me and he, like, look at my legs. And he was like, oh, your legs are so hairy. They look like monkey legs. And I just remember, like, I came... I mean, in the moment, if you was an onlooker, you wouldn't have thought it was a sad thing.

Like, I don't remember what I said back to him. I'm sure it was, like, something. really, really trash, like, and you're ugly, but I definitely, like, came back at him, came back at him hard, and acted like it didn't bother me at all, and the school, you know, the school journey continued. But the moment that I got home, I went immediately straight upstairs to the bathroom cabinet, took out my mum's razor, and, like, I'd never shaved my legs before, right? So just kind of, like, took out this dry razor and was, like, dragging the dry razor on my dry skin. But then cleaning off the razor with the razor.

My thumb? No, no, no, Mona. I sliced it right open. And my mom just came home to, like, find me on the couch with, like, my thumb hanging open. And, like, one clean strip of hair on my legs and monkey legs everywhere else. But, yeah. I'm curious, like, boys obviously do come under pressure, but I don't know anything about boys because I literally had no contact with them from the ages of 11 to, like, 18.

But, like, Penn, do you have a pivotal moment of, like, someone making you feel really bad about one, aspects of your body um yeah yeah a number a lot of them uh well a lot of them leading up to when i moved to l a and then i did move to l a and then i was like auditioning and every audition is is a clear rejection and they will come back and say things about your body like you know you get notes from your agent as i say this this is like wow why would anybody do this to a child but anyway um you know they come up with notes and it's either about your performance or your body or both if you're lucky. I didn't know that. It's not like it's all evil or anything. It's just, it's on one hand, it's feedback that you need. On the other, it fuels all these ideas about your body that

you already have. So, you know, the way that you seem to be resilient and confident and we're like, oh, it's all the wash. I don't really have a moment that sticks out. Mine was just a lot of shame. It just washes over. And there are a few that stand out. Like, there was one incidents at school, must have been sixth grade. I was, I was very, I was very, shubby and so I was like wearing this very very baggy sweatshirt and I was just very self-conscious of my body super self-conscious and I was about two years younger than everybody in the grade on average because I had started early and then I'd skipped the grade somewhere in there so um my my academic records started skipping at the age of about eight or nine when I moved from these coast to west goes anyway so

it's like it's just like all over the place but I uh yeah I was wearing a really big sweatshirt that hung down like somewhere between my knees and my waist and then I like lifted my arms or whatever and there were these two girls that swore that my pants were unzipped and they saw my penis and I was and you know and this was this was for me it was like you know at that age it's just you're it's just it's just horrific any part of your body that you're insecure about but then let alone your genitalia I mean my goodness so so I so they were like laughing about it and then I don't recall the details but there was there was like a a a circle of kids who then were all pointing

and laughing and then there was a girl as we call them the hot girls you know there was a girl who was like because we were all in this after school program because our parents worked and um one of the hot girls just made some kind of she was just like ill ill you know and then the idea that it

conjured up a feeling of disgust in a in a hot girl of all girls was just humiliating and so I did cry I full on cried and then you know this guy his name was Yev And he was just a really kind, very popular guy. And he sat me down.

Well, I was sitting down. Actually, what I was doing was I had buried my head in my sweatshirt. And I was crying on the desk in the library, I think. So awful. And so he came up, and he was just so kind. Like, I don't recall much of what he said, but he was just, you know, he was exactly the kind of guy that I needed comfort from in that moment. Because he was in eighth grade and I was in sixth grade. And I was young on top of it.

So it was like a teenager telling an 11-year-old, like, hey, man, this is, you're okay. And he, like, kind of boosted my confidence a little bit. And then actually those girls wrote me a letter, I think, a few days later, and said when they found out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What? I know, I'm like, wait a second. Is this a movie? My school, whatever.

Was this real life or was this a show that you auditioned for? But, you know, overall, yeah, I was full of particular. body insecurities. I mean, particularly, you know, the irony that it's since been most of the reason I'm working. I mean, let's be honest at this point. Like, you know, it's just just, just my physical appearance, like the kind of shows that I'm on, the sort of thing I'm known for. It's not, it's not not part of what I do. It's not part of my work. That's why we chose to do an audio-only podcast. Prove that he's more than just a thing. Just to really make sure this was content-based. You know, and but I still, you know, like I said before, I still feel like,

like that kid. I don't really not feel like that kid. This is maybe a weird question, but just straight off the back of that, like, how do you think your experiences of middle school and even who you are now would be different if you had gone to like a single-sex school? Yeah, it's very hard to say because, for instance, my dad went to an all-boys boarding school, and those experiences I've heard were just nothing but... Misery. Yeah. Yeah. But then there's this other thing. It's like maybe, you know, maybe constitutionally we're all sort of going to see things a certain way and maybe i wouldn't have maybe i would have experienced just as much shame because like that's something i'm sensitive to or

maybe you know i don't i sometimes wonder about how much experience like the details of life end up being quite different did you move to this place did you take that job did you marry that person did you not did you break up with whatever it is but but you but you yourself i mean how much do people really truly change dramatically over the course of a life like you're not you're it's always like a trajectory, right? So I wonder if I would have had a lot of the same feelings just with different triggering events, you know? Sophie, I'm curious, do you have a moment of like someone pointing something out about your body that became like a core memory? I have a ton. I remember I moved in the middle of eighth grade. I moved from the Philippines to China. And it was a hard year to move. I moved.

My dad worked for UNICEF. So I moved every two to five years. And I moved. And I moved. loved moving. I thought it was the greatest thing. Oh, wow. Yeah, my mom would say, like, after two years, I would go to her and be like, okay, where's the next place? Yeah, I loved it. And I found it really easy to make friends, like pretty adaptable. It was really smooth. Also, because I think I have a really close relationship with my family and my parents really were very intentional about making those transitions smooth and making them kind of fun and adventurous instead of something tragic but eighth grade was different i went into like a full depression like i stopped showering it was like a crisis i would wear my hair up in a bun and it just like started to become

like a rat's nest is what my mom called it and part of it was that i when i moved there were a couple of girls who just made it i actually i think it was one girl who made it her mission to just take me down because i was i came in the middle of eighth grade so it was kind of novel for everybody who was there. You know, there weren't any other new students, so there was a lot of attention on me. You went to an international school, not a Chinese school. Yeah, I went to an international school.

And I said to Pennava before that I developed quite early, especially my chest. So there was a girl who was dating somebody. She was in a long-term, quote, long-term relationship in eighth grade. And her boyfriend was really friendly towards me. And I think it really was just friendly. You know, he was just helpful and kind of, showing me around and stuff and she was really threatened and she started a few rumors about

my breasts and like that I had a boob job I was 13 you know and I was already so self-conscious I had had another comment about the stretch marks on my breasts and how and I kind of realized that they were not nice to look at at that point and so I was already really self-conscious and I remember going home to my mom and regularly just like crying to her and and asking her, like, can I get a reduction? Can I just, I wanted to chop them off. I really, like, it was a visceral feeling I want. I just would have daydreams about, like, what would it be like to just completely cut

them off and be flat chested? So, yeah, I think, I mean, that has lasted very much into my adulthood. I'm still extremely self-conscious about my chest. Yeah. I think in seventh or eighth grade, this boy that I really liked, we're still really good friends. He's like, met no harm. But he said that I looked like a linebacker because my shoulders were so. broad and I like ever since I like hated my back and just this year at a wedding I wore a

backless dress and it's the first time I've ever done it and it's like so silly but I felt so proud because it was like overcoming like something that I was like true I'm like crying about it which is so seems like so dumb but no I was like I like made a conscious decision that like this comment that someone made when I was like 13 is not going to dominate my wardrobe now into my like 30s you know it's beautiful even that like it's beautiful that you did that and it feels like, yeah, it was a turning point, but I can't help but focus on like, this is so, it sounds really dramatic to be like the lost years,

like, as if like, you know, like, you could have been backless. Oh, backless, I know, I know, I know. But like, honestly, it truly is lost years. Like, you know, the idea of just going through a store and like seeing a nice stress that you like and holding up the back of it and being like, nope, and putting it back on the railing, that fucking depresses me. That, like, there is time that you can't get back.

And I think the older you get, the more you're like, no, no, no, I can't waste any more time. I have to address this thing that I hate because I don't want to get into my 40s, 50s still feeling this way. There's like a sense of urgency, I think, whereas when you're, you feel so defeatist when you're younger, just like, I'm always going to feel this way. Like, there's no point trying to fix it. Yeah.

So I just want to say, like, that's so beautiful that you did it. And, like, congratulations. And I hope you've got lots of compliments on the dress, yeah. I actually did get a lot of compliments on the dress. Kids. Nice. I'm thinking about Penn's story again and thinking about that eighth grade boy who comforted you and how sweet that that was and also how important it is to have slightly older people when we're that age who kind of can can comfort us, guide us, mentor us. And I'm wondering Mona if you had anyone in your life who was like that, whether they were part of your family or outside of your family.

No, I really don't think that I did. Like, my parents had zero friends, like, absolutely zero. And I think what's funny is loads of my other friends, as I said, it was a minority white school. So pretty much everyone had immigrant parents. And, like, it was, none of our parents had friends. They were just people who had, like, arrived in the country and were, like, there to work and have a family. And, like, what does socializing mean, you know? No, I just had, like, an older sister who was two years older, who,

we did the classic thing of just like hating each other until we were 20 and now we're close. But like, yeah. Did you, you said earlier that your dad was unwell. Was your mom involved in his cares? Yeah, definitely. But also, I think when I say that I also became acutely aware of money and finances at that age, it was because I saw the financial stress on my mom. So for my mom, there was a trade-off between trying to take care of my dad,

but also knowing that she had to remain in full-time employment in all the to make sure that the rest of us were safe. And ultimately, that trade-off just meant that at a certain point, my dad couldn't live with us anymore because he just needed round-the-clock care. So he moved into a care home when I was like maybe 14. And what's... Yeah, it was really, really awful.

But I think it's really funny that I'm getting emotional now, I think, talking about it because it's only been literally now in my life that I'm giving myself permission to say there was awful. And the whole time it was going on, I was just like, it's fine, shit happens, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And, like, that was a survival mechanism that I think kind of served me quite well. But actually, it's weird, again, like, in respect, I was so close to all of my friends, so, so close. And I had a really, really big friendship group.

I was popular, guys, that's all I'm saying. Yes, my love to. It's becoming clear. But, like, of all of those friends, there was only one friend that even knew that my dad was sick. And it was someone who had known him from before he even. and got sick, and I just didn't talk about it. And I remember literally, like, I was in my, like, mid-20s, and a friend from high school was, like, where did your dad go?

Like, I still don't know, like, did he run, go out to buy milk and then disappear? Like, you just never spoke about it. So people had all kinds of theories about what was going on, because you just knew to not ask me. Like, just don't ask. Mona, do you think, sorry, we're not therapist, but, and I hope this isn't, like, an insensitive question. Tell me off if it is.

but do you think that you felt some shame that you, like, concealed it? Or why do you think you didn't share that with anything? Yeah, 100%. And also, like, therapy is expensive. Give me all the free stuff that you can possibly give me. I think it absolutely was shame. And I think it's also interesting listening back to some of the stories that I was hearing on the podcast.

It's like, yeah, I think I felt a sense of shame that, like, you know, I didn't have tits. I was hairy. But, like, none of it really... But, like, I think I was always contextualizing that shame in reference to my dad. And I was like, those things don't really count of shameful. Like, this is shameful. Oh, interesting.

And it's funny, even now as an adult, I still mark that as, like, legitimate shame, which of course is not legitimate shame. It wasn't his fault that he was sick. But, like, he had a heart attack when I was young and then seemed to kind of develop some form of, like, dementia after that. So he was basically dying from the time that I was, like, maybe six or seven years old up until he died when I was 18.

So it was very, very, very slow. But some of that manifested as like, you know, he was just, he would wander outside the house in pajamas and, like, neighbors would see him and be like, what's going on with that dude? And then, like, the neighborhood kids would gossip and be like,

oh, like, her dad is crazy. And I was just like, oh, that is, like, that is something to really, really feel ashamed about. Like, that is, yeah, like, I'm truly ashamed. And I never, ever, ever, ever, like, until my dad went into a care home, I never had friends over to mine. I'm trying to figure out if that's a bit of an exaggeration. But no, I think it's true.

Because I would just be so scared of, like, what if he does something weird? Yeah. It's especially back, you're around about our age, I think, right? Like, you know, back in the 90s, I mean, this was not something. You know, you talk to anybody who's our age now, it's not three minutes before you're talking about mental health in some way. Yeah. Somebody mentions it.

It's just such a thing now, you know. The idea of having someone in your family struggling with this thing that just no one talked about you. I don't feel like you saw it in movies. The idea of anything like that, of dementia, you know, mental illness, it just seemed like this big, scary, faraway dark cloud that, like, visits people. And, like, you just hope that it doesn't visit your family because no one understood it. No one under, like, you know what I mean? there was like so little nuance, you know? I totally agree with everything you're saying.

Like, I was listening to something where they were saying that Buddhists believe there are only two dominant forces in the world, and that's love and fear. And I thought that was so powerful as a way of like reframing things. And yeah, it was a very, very, very fearful time. But what's interesting, I think, is reprocessing as you get older, all of those experiences that you had in middle school and being like, was that something to be afraid of?

And I actually think in retrospect, the answer is still yes. Like, I don't know. Like, what other way around it is it? Like, it's fucking terrifying imagining your life without one of your parents or like, or like when someone's behavior is erratic and you don't know what they're going to do. Like, I don't know. It's not irrational. It's rational to be afraid.

It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that stuff like cuts deep. It's like, it's your literal, like, DNA. It's like who you are. It's, your parents are wrapped up in your sense of, like, identity. And there's like the love and the attachment and fear.

Those are just like primal. deep things. I was going to ask, Mona, have you had a chance now in your adult life to talk with your sister, your mom about that time and to find out what they were going, what they were feeling and, yeah, process it? It's funny because not only did I not talk about it at school, we kind of all had this shorthand at home where we don't talk about it. We just did not talk about it. And me and my sister have had a few conversations, but it's funny. It's like, you know, those things are just so raw that it's like suddenly a little valve will open up and you have this conversation that lasts

and then it gets closed off and you don't revisit it again for a while. Like it's not like it's become part of our vocabulary. And for my mum still, yeah, I don't really think it's on the table. It's funny, I was clearing out, this happened years ago, I was clearing out like some old VHS cassettes. And I was like, I wonder what's on each of those and one of them was her wedding video.

And I was like, oh, this is kind of interesting to see. And she just started screaming like, switch it off, switch it off, switch it off, I can't. It's too much. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to make it super depressing. No, no, no, no.

Mona, my mom passed away eight years ago, and I, for like the first two years, at least the first year, but I think two years. But the first year, every week, I would wake up in the middle of the night with, like, heart palpitations, like scared that my dad would die. And Sophie knows I've, like, told her stories.

If he doesn't, like, text me, if he, like, leaves his phone in the other room, sometimes I'll leave. I'll have like a meltdown. Like I've like had like physical meltdowns when I thought my dad was like missing or something happened to him. And I like my like nightmare is that my dad would die. But I know he will. You know, like he's going to at some point. But it feels like no way could it happen while I'm in my 30s and like not married myself. Don't have my own family. Like I had lunch with Penn and Domino and I was like sharing that. And I was like crying at the table. Like the idea that I would be untethered in this world. So I like really my heart like really goes out to you because that's so painful to go through. And you are. too young to go through that. But it's interesting that you mentioned family as well because I think about that a lot. And one story that my mum did tell, which I think is really interesting, I think Penny, you're the only parent in the room. Yeah.

Like, I wonder how that changed your, yeah, just your emotional makeup. Because my mum said, so my mum lost her mum when she was 13 and it was like absolutely fucking devastating for her, of course. Like they both had really hard upbringings in different ways. But anyway, so her mum died when she was 13. And from then on, she would wake up in the middle of night and be like, oh my God, my mum just died. Literally when she was like in her 20s,

she said that she was like, she had a roommate in college and she'd like wake up and be like, oh my God, my mom just died. And the roommate, like it's a really weird line to walk of being like, yeah, your mom is dead, but it happened a while ago. And she said that she had it when she got married, like she'd wake up next to my dad and do it.

And she said, the moment that I had your sister, I never had that dream again. Like something, I was able to just like fucking let go of something. I've just had friends talk about how the moment that you become a parent, just something shifts? Has that been your experience, Penn? I mean, yes. Yes, the short, big, bold answer is, yeah.

It's complicated. Well, yeah, I mean, so inasmuch as it's ever appropriate and helpful to share, either to be actually just sharing directly with you or if it's something that we keep on the show. You know, I'm sort of actively dealing with pretty, difficult situation with one of my parents and mental illness is very much a part of that

and been caretaking for a long time but my parents are not together at all so it's kind of it's on me and my half-sister who I'm to be honest not quite close I mean we love each other we have a special kind of love for another we don't we didn't grow up with each other we're very far apart in age and we had very different

upbringings in a sense even the parent that we share we had different versions of that person you know very different versions of that person yeah so for me you know what has changed i don't feel the same kind of like anger or resentment like at all yeah i think the second that i had my son like i there was just a lightness there was a lightness to all things and i think in my family there might be you know a certain kind of heaviness sort of blanket of heaviness and and that feels as though it's been lifted in a large part, or it's lifting.

But, you know, it's new. Because I think, you know, for instance, the story you were just telling, that's somebody recalling it years down the line and being able to see this thing that happened, you know, this kind of shift that happened. But I think I'm still kind of in it. There's a therapist that I've spoken to who talks about this idea of being tethered. And I had never heard this before, but he basically said that everybody,

every human being needs to know that they have unconditional love, with at least one person, and that's a tether. And if a person is moving through this world without that knowledge that there's at least one... I can't even say this without... I know. Oh, my God, I'm going to choke off again. Yeah, if they move through the world without knowing that they have at least unconditional love

from one person, they live in a state of crisis. And I was thinking about the way my sister and I reacted to my mom's death. My sister was married, had one kid. It was just so... I mean, we're different people, but I was like, oh, she just has something that I don't have. Like, I feel like if I lose my dad, I lose my tether.

Even though my sister and I have love for each other, it's not the same. Like, the way that it flows between a parent and a child is distinct. And so I do feel like, yeah, I can imagine that having a child gives you that tether again. So I think it is different. You know, you have unconditional love that flows in a direction that is somehow, like, meaningful. Yeah, I just feel somehow more mercy and expansiveness around it, Whereas maybe it felt like a, I don't know, like bondage before or something, you know.

Venom. It sounds like it was like venom in your body or something. I mean, yeah, yeah, it's, again, I think I don't have enough perspective. Like, I mean, I've shared some of the details with Nava and all the other stuff that we're working on. And it's like, it's, you know, it's intense. And what you said about venom, we can definitely cut this. I hope you don't mind my sharing, but I've seen Penn have a physical reaction to news about this parent that I had never witnessed someone. I just hadn't been in the presence of someone

And it was like venom It was like a poison To receive certain information It was like coursing through him You know, it's so intense Well mental illness is As I suppose you know It's just it's crazy

How little we understand it I know You know I mean There's a little space for And in our culture You know If you want to support them It's extremely expensive

Yeah You know we don't have a culture Where you can like You're not already living With your parents Anyway it's you know just this thing about like venom and and how your body can react so physically to just like years of pain you know really i guess it's that fear yeah i was just going to say i feel like at least a part of the disdain that society has for people who are old people who are sick

has to be because we're in a capitalist society like there's no space there's no they're not producing they're not contributing financially yeah You're just a drain on resources, exactly. The lack of social services really creates this scenario where it's a lot harder to care. It's also sometimes not possible. You have to work. Like, your mom had to work. Like, it's not like she could just coast. And this is with socialized health care, and it's still not enough.

And I also think that was super formative. Like, when you witness someone struggling financially, that's what made me really like a fucking little Scrooge McDuck at the age of, 12 of like, how do I get my hands on some money? Who do you? I love that. Like, you know, I just think, I'm getting my hands on some money. I just became so hyper aware of how fragile things are and how money does insulate you from certain things.

And you actually, like, we were never even struggling, I wouldn't say, financially. And yet we still took this huge hit. And then you're like, okay, so we need to be multi-millionaires to be safe. Like, you have to, like, be filthy, filthy, filthy rich. And, yeah, how do I, at the age of 12? Like, how do I get to me? Filsely, wealthy rich. So your parents were doctors growing up, right?

We did your research. So much research, yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I to understand that you, at least your mom sounds like a devout Muslim. Is that right? Yep, very religious. Right. So, you know, on your show, you spoke about kind of in this moment, this kind of harmony between her very, very religious.

rigorously scientific and medical perspective and not just perspective, but like education and practice and experience and doctorate. And then also, you know, being a certain kind of doctor with the Quran, I suppose, you know, like I heard you guys talking about mactube, right? Yeah. Which is, what is that? Is that fate? Yeah, it's the idea that the word mactube literally means written. So it's the idea that everything has been like predestined, but yet you still have total choice about which of these predestined paths you can choose,

if you see what I mean. Yeah. So, like, if you take one path, it leaves you. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway, keep going. No, no, no. I mean, I actually would love to keep going on that. He really would.

We're going to keep you on after. Yeah, I would. That's the, that's the, that's the, that's the podcast I'm producing on the side. It's just, it's actually called Mac Tube. It's Ben Badgling. So what was that, I mean, for you, like, Like this young, money-grubbing, man-hating. I'm kidding, of course.

But, like, you know, what was your relationship to science, to religion, spirituality, to faith? How were you consciously or unconsciously just always weighing those things and finding balance or not? Or did you, you know, really go to one side or the other? I think the thing that I realized in that household was that there's no trade-off. There's no choice between science and God. There's no choice between even, like,

Islam and I don't know, being British or, you know, like these things that are presented to you as choices, you don't need to, you don't need to choose between them. So interestingly, actually, the elementary school that I went to was a church school. And that was because my dad was the school doctor. So it was just, like, it was actually a terrible school. It was the second worst school in the whole of England at the time. But it was just on his way to work. And again, immigrant parents, like, they're just like, don't da-dam. Like, I saw this on my way to work. Like, this place seems fine. I'll just deposit the kids there. And it was a church school. So from Monday to Friday, I was, like, learning about Jesus Christ and art class and English and science and everything else. And then on Saturdays, we went to Arabic school. And the way to learn Arabic was through the Quran. So, like, our parents weren't necessarily invested in distilling, in stealing, sorry, Islam Minas. But that was just, like, what we were learning at Arabic school. And it was just really nice. Like, I found some of my old diaries from the time, you know, young children go through a slight phase of pathological lying, myself included. And so in my like weekend diaries, I lied about, I was like, yes, I was hanging out with Mohammed and Jesus and we went to the duck pond and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, these characters just truly existed for me, like, in tandem with one another. There was no, there was no lane that I had to pick. And I think that was a really, really nice environment to grow up in that you don't have to choose. That's rough. That's really nice. I recently

heard a journalist named Jen Brandel speaking at an event and she, I love her and anyone look her up after she's an amazing, amazing person. But she was talking about she grew up with like a Jewish dad and a Christian mom and in Evanston, Chicago and she got injured one time and at the doctor they asked her what her religion was. Like that was a question they used to ask people. And she said both because in her mind there were just like the two religions and she didn't want to have to choose. And And then she talks about this amazing moment in her life where she realized that she didn't have to choose. And that if you go to, like, a higher level, there's room for both. Like, they're part of a continuum.

And that this, like, principle has served her well in life for when two ideas seem to be in conflict. If you go to a higher level, maybe they actually exist together on a continuum. That was, like, so profound. Yeah, that's awesome. By the way, yeah, I wasn't suggesting that, like, you needed to choose either. No, I know, I know. Are you British or are you Muslim? No, but, like, I think...

Explain to me how. God. But that's interesting that that's where my mind went because I think that's what society does tell us. Like society, even like, you know, I keep on coming back to this idea of an all-girls school and like it's only recently, I'm like, wait, how do they even operate that nowadays

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laugh guy. Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try-n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. We have like a closing question that we ask everyone that you probably know. I know. I'm so prepared. But before we go to that one, I want to ask you one other thing. Just thinking about the incredible work that you do. You look at trends, and from peeping your Instagram, it looks like you look at things that are hopeful, but also some of the darker trends. And so I was just curious in 2022 right now, what do you consider a trend that's really frightening? And what do you consider a trend that gives you, like, hope? My God, it's such a good question. Such a good

question. My God, I'm starting off with frightening and I'm so overwhelmed by how many different frightening things that there are. Yeah, take your pick, really. I would answer COVID. to both of those, right? Like, the whole thing, like, revealed so much to be hopeful about and so much to be afraid about, because people's behaviour really did both, right? Like, I've been in places where people will be screaming right up in your face, like, about why they don't want to wear a fucking mask.

And also, like, watching people, like, go out of their way to show compassion and kindness to others. And, you know, hopefully we've kind of, as a society, as a collective, have maybe learned to understand sickness a little bit differently and hopefully even disability as well. Like, you know, disability is not also this binary. It might just be that maybe you don't have a disability at this point in your life. And hopefully we understand like the fragility of that a little bit more. So yeah, COVID, she says she coughed.

Yeah, as I cough, oh, my God. I'm like having a cop check, I'm like, who can I look at to get me water? Oh, can I also ask you all, though? Can I also ask you all what's making you feel hopeful and, yeah, Yeah. Well, I think the younger generations. I mean, I feel nervous for them because of all the like mental health and the social anxiety and, you know, all these reports that are coming out. But I feel like anecdotally having been a teacher and a school administrator, but also like reading, I used to work at the UN and one of my heirs research was youth. And like this generation of young people is the most inclusive, the most open minded, the most ecologically concerned that we've had in a long time. They're passionate. I think they see themselves as agents of change. Like they want to improve. the world in a way that I feel like previous generations just didn't have that sense. Part of their identity wasn't like I'm someone who can transform the world. But I think in more and more young people, that's part of their identity.

And that gives me like tremendous hope. You know what? I actually have hope every time I have a meaningful conversation with individuals. This is the thing. It's like I think one to one, most and overwhelming majority of people are wanting, what we might call change. And they want justice. We're learning what it means to be a giant planet of so many people for the first time ever connected more intimately than ever.

There's people, there's communities all over the world who are like slowly going to be learning what is needed to get us there. I think in the last two years we've kind of seen that as a global society we really are like one human body and that when one part of it is affected, that the rest are affected. to. I think that's been kind of like a platitude or it's a notion that is not new, but I don't think we've had to really experience it so much until COVID, really. And the fact that that is more in our awareness, that gives me hope. So true. You're not going to get a better proof of concept than COVID. If you don't get it by now, like truly. Sorry. Yeah. The problem's you. Don't test it, please. Yeah, exactly.

Mona, our final question that we ask people. It's so pathetic because I already know it. I love that. I'm like, do you want to ask yourself? It feels so good. Yeah, if you could go back and talk to 12-year-old Mona and say something, what would you say? I would say being kind to yourself will get you further faster than being hard on yourself. That's beautiful.

Thank you all so much. Enjoy the rest of your days. I hope your cough gets better, Penn. Feel better soon. Thanks. Take care. Bye. Bye. We'll leave you with today's listener submitted story. Words may break my bones. Penn, take it away. I'm 23 now living in Wisconsin, but something happened to me in 2010 when I was in seventh grade that I've never been able to shake. I had a tightly knit group of friends, same group since fifth grade. Within that group was a girl named Lacey, who I considered one of my best friends. I told her basically everything in typical middle school best friend fashion. Clark is super cute.

I shared giddily one day. He was tall and tan. He played on the volleyball team. Did I mention he was tall and tan? I'd always had a little crush on it, but never told anyone. I wasn't terribly shy, and I had talked to Clark before, but flirting. No, that was too much. But Lacey knew him better than I did

and had multiple classes with him, so she offered to talk to Clark and gauge how he felt about me. And I agreed, but I made her promise to do it in private and fill me in later. Lunchtime rolls around. Lacey found me and pulled me aside. So I talked to Clark.

Yeah, come on, I looked at her and waited for her to continue. I asked him if he knew you, if he thought you were nice. Hmm. So according to Lacey, Clark said, yeah, she's nice. Why?

Lacey went on to tell him that I had a crush on him, and she wanted to know if he felt the same way about me. His response was probably the last thing I ever expected to hear. I don't think I even realized

boys could be mean at this point in my life. Lacey paused before she spoke. He made a face and said he'd rather date a dog than date you. My cheeks got hot, my hands shook, and my palms were instantly drenched in sweat. Ew, I mean, I thought Clark was so nice.

How could he say that about me? Why on earth would Lacey repeat it? Why couldn't she just lie and say he had a girlfriend? I wasn't the prettiest girl, Mike Ray, but was I really romantically less desirable than a dog? So I'm in my 20s now. And writing this, I get a little choked up, remembering how that you're not. 12-year-old me felt that day and how much it truly impacted me. I avoided Clark at all costs through the rest of middle school and high school. I doubt he ever noticed me. But I could

barely look at him. I never told my parents. Actually, I was so humiliated. I never told anyone until June of 2020, my husband and I were driving back from a quick trip up to the lake near our home, and somehow his story came up. As I was recounting it, tears began. dwell up in my eyes, and I got that familiar lump in my throat. I tried to laugh it off when my husband noticed my tears, but he knew. I was, and still am, hurt. I didn't realize until I grew up how much of an impact those eight words had on me. Honestly, the experience wrecked me.

Even if you don't think your words will get back to someone, what if they do? These did, and they still hurt. You can view Mona Chaliby's art exhibit from now through September at the Brooklyn Museum, or you can follow her online at Mona Chalaby. Podcrush is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navakavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer and editor is David Ansari.

Our secondary editor is Sharaf and Twistle. Special thanks to Peter Clowney, VP of Content at Stitcher, Eric Eddings, Director of Lifestyle Programming at Stitcher, Jared O'Connell and Brendan Bryans for the tech support and Shruti Marathi, who transcribes our tape. Podcrush was created by Navakavalin and is executive produced by Penn Badgley and Navakavalin and produced by Sophie Ansari. This podcast is a 9th mode production.

Be sure to subscribe to Podcrush. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcrush.com and give us every detail. And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials. It's at Podcresh, spelled how it sounds. and our personals are at Pembadjley, at NAVA, that's NAVA with three ends, and at Scribble by Sophie.

And we're out. See you next week. Because I really think I did actually believe that, like, you know, this tough love thing, that's what works. That's what makes me, like, work hard. That's what makes you good. And I think you really have to, like, let go of that notion. And, yeah, God, considering that I rehearsed it is a bit want-womp, but it's hard. No, no, no.

No, no. So good. You want to do another take? It's hard. No, no, I love that. Okay. Maybe my second take is just like... No, no, no, I'm doing.

No, that was perfect. Penn is joking. It's beautiful. Yeah. I'm dry. I have a dry... It's because I'm full of despair. Right?

Are you part British? Yeah. I'm very American. My wife is British. Yeah, she's rubbed off on you. Actually, she's British Iraqi. She's British Iraqi. His wife is British.

No. Yes, she is. Stitcher.