Podcrushed - Penn Talks YOU

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

To watch the video version of this episode, head over to the YouTube Podcrushed channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUvv82qZ85Q In this special episode of Podcrushed, Penn answers all of your questions about his Netflix show, YOU — including his favorite moments with each season’s co-lead, and the cringiest scene he’s ever had to film. Fans of YOU, this one’s for… well, you get it. Follow Podcrushed on socials! InstagramTwitterTikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. This is Pod Crushed. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing middle school story at a time. And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout.

Hello there. I used to say pod crushers. No, I said it once, and then Sophie was like, please never say that again. But Sophie's not here right now. It's just me introducing a special episode. It is a little different than normal. So since we started Podcrushed,

many of our listeners have asked about my Netflix show, you. And after much deliberation, we decided to do a special episode of Podcrush where we talk about my show you in advance of season four. It's coming out a few months. So a few weeks ago, Sophie and Nova put out a call on our Pod Crush Instagram.

for you to send in your burning questions about you. Today, we are handing over the reins of Podcrushed. Well, I guess that means I'm handing over the reins of Podcrush to Sophie and Nava to interview me with your questions about you, my show. So to be clear, I hadn't seen any of these questions at advance. I was coming in blind as I do to every interview. That's not true. And one other, it's not true that I come in blind to every interview,

but I came in blind to this one. So another note about today's episode, we filmed it. You can watch the full-length video of today's episode. Just click the link in the description of this episode or look up Podcrushed on YouTube. You can find it that way. We had a lot of fun. I think you should listen.

Stick around and we'll be right back. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? well. One way that I combat that feeling is by making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louis. Nom Nom does this with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures and ingredients. Nom Nom offers six recipes bursting with premium proteins, vibrant veggies and tempting textures designed to add excitement to your dog's day.

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He's been convicted of murdering two young women, but suspected of many more. Maybe there's another one in that area. And now, new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim now. We have no idea he killed. Stolen voices of Dole Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. This episode is in a way a thank you from us to the fans

because we know that you guys have been asking for this and you really want to know about you and so even though it's not totally aligned with the themes of our podcast we're so grateful to your support all season and for that we wanted to give you this little gift of an episode. So we asked our fans for questions and we got a ton on Instagram, on TikTok, and NAVA sorted through them

and we thought it would be fun to get We got together in person for one of the first times. Because typically, I'm in New York and there. Isn't that wild? London. The last time we were all together was for our launch, our launch party in New York. And I hadn't seen Penn in person since then. And that was like two hours together. And we barely saw each other that night.

It was so brief. I mean, I got my fill, I think. Yeah, he was sad. That's a stupid joke. I have really enjoyed spending time in person. And we're going to watch a dinner later, guys. Yeah, I do have a schedule And it says dinner and fun

There's a fun block Navajovalan Former director of a middle school Okay Scheduled this whole business trip That I'm here for And happy to be here for Doing other press

There is one block On the spreadsheet G4 It is block G4 I remember I only had to look once And it's yellow And it says all caps Fun It says

fun and that's by the way block g4 starts after this so so i so actually in the spirit in this spirit what nava has done for all of us is is is you're going to watch this okay we're all in block g4 right now yeah we are all having fun capital f you can you share an embarrassing story from middle school? Can you share an embarrassing story from set? So, you know, I've been kind of forthcoming about, about like, how sort of awkward and vulnerable intimacy scenes can be, and actually many other scenes.

I had a scene, it was like a fantasy scene from season three, where I'm, Joe is, he's having dream sex with either, it's hard to narrow it, but the way they wanted to shoot it was, was so the camera was so tight and close that like there was no the camera's just here you know the camera's there instead of a person

instead of a person yeah in my underwear on a bed in a fake room in front of you know probably 12 people or so and then knowing that it's going to be seen by 400 million millions of people I'm already embarrassed actually I had to hump the air

because I was I was you know I was I was I was simulating real sex simulating real sex with a person. Right. I had to hump the air. Just because practically that's what's happened. Yeah.

And actually, Silver Tree, shout out this. Silver. Very talented. Very compassionate. She came. So she was right, by the way. It needed to be shot here. Much like, let's also, said out to Lee Tolan Krieger.

He was also right ultimately. Like the people behind the camera watching what needs to happen often are right. you know and it's my job to ground it and resist it but i will do it uh yeah so when i had to hump the uh the air in my underwear um in real life to simulate this thing i uh silver comes out and she's like you know because we've got to be here like you're you're not there's not going to be anybody and i cut her off and i see what you're asking me and and she was like uh and she was just like And that's just kind of her, she and I have a very like, okay, yep, she comes in, you know, because she has to do so much crazy.

She was with us as a producing director the longest. She would have to, you know, she cut up so many bodies. And she just be like, yeah, more blood there. Yeah, okay, you're going to have to put your pants down there. Okay, yeah, we're going to. You know, we're just, we were very like, there was a trust there. And I was like, okay, I see what you're asking me to do. And, and she was like, are you? And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And she goes back behind the monitor. And then, and then, you know, I get on, I get on the bed and, um, assuming all fours. in my underwear and she calls action very compassionately

and yeah had to had to do that it was a weird it was a weird sensation because yeah you can imagine yeah we'll try not to

that was great yeah sure okay so Penn what is your favorite season or episode do you have one well I actually haven't seen all of the fourth season at this point

but I think it is the most challenging in a good way it sort of like threatens to break the mold and then I mean I can't say too much at this point but it it really lands I think towards the latter half of the season

in a way that it needs to sort of go away to come back and I really like that as a person who's invested in the show growing and like it can't get too different it can't ultimately be a different show

but it has to sort of try and then figure out a new form of itself and I think they I think honestly I mean the writers like the concept is so hard to build upon to not like exhaust I mean consider how Joe should be like the worst

you know and and so this season yeah I don't know this season is interesting and satisfying but I think from previous seasons my favorite episode is um the episode eight of two the season two in the biz we call this 208. What happened in 208? Was that the one where you had like a fugue state? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say Joe is a fugue state, but yeah, there's a more pronounced, and so like just for me, it's fun because I get to do,

like when you get to ground like high camp in, you know, like the, like the mania of, of an acid trip, but like, I don't know, grounding it in something truly heartbreaking. That's fun. That's fun as an actor. Do you have a favorite season prior to season four? No. Okay. Season four, you're it. You know what? I would say my least favorite season is season one because I was, I was, the whole time I was like, is anybody going to forgive me for this?

Or, you know, that's a bit extreme, but I was, I was struggling with it. Yeah, I was struggling the most of the concepts. I was like, they're turning the heat up on the pot, right? And then by season two and three, I was like, yeah, it's boiling, we're fine. So people wanted to know what was your favorite scene to film with Beck, with all of your female love interest with beck with love with marianne and with kate if you can give us a glimpse kate is his new season four yeah there there is always there's always at least one scene that is like surprisingly like like like real and there's usually not more than like one like where it's where

it's um like joy and reality comes through like this really like it's and it's easy to shoot and we only need a few takes and it's like wow this is why we do this you know i can't remember what all those are, I think with Beck, Elizabeth Lale was probably probably the scene that comes to mind is like the scene actually where Joe confronts her about cheating on him.

And something about that was, that rehearsal was like, we could do, we were like, this is very potent. And so, again, when reality comes through, which then as an actor later means that actually joy kind of takes hold, even if you're doing something really dark, if reality comes through

after you're like, you're nervous system calms and settles and you know not only did you do your job but like you can you're you're then protected by the reality you know you're protected by the fact you brought some reality to to this story so so that season one with Beck with

Elizabeth Loyal's character that would be that one with Victoria Budrety's character Love season's two and three that would be actually for Love it would be season three with the divorce dinner scene at the end spoiler alert they don't divorce she dies

Because Joe's a murderer With who else Marianne? But wait, why was that one? Season three But why was that one your favorite? Yeah Because again, Joe was able to be honest with her for a moment There's others that I'm probably forgetting

Marianne, Marianne, favorite scene with Marianne I Marianne's harder, actually Marianne, the thing about Joe with Marianne is that he's maybe at his worst Yeah, I think so too. So I don't, I actually feel like with Marianne, it was most the troubling. Can you impact that? Well, afterwards.

Yeah. Kate, yeah, I can't say. So the interesting thing about Kate. Can you tell us which episode? Yeah, Kate in season four, there is, there has to be something new about every character, every season. For Joe's person, that he's, you know, hopefully not going to kill. Maybe he's going to change. Or maybe she'll kill him.

Maybe he can only hope. she brings something new to the table both as an actress but then also the character so so so there was some again there's always moments where reality comes through and it's like it's a joy it's a joy to be jail well I just want to tell can you unpack why you think he's at his

worst with Marianne and you said you agreed oh yeah and I just hadn't thought of that I'm curious he's at his worst because he's really really really more consciously like gaslighting and lying and manipulating and I think a woman who's like maybe even in the most vulnerable she's like an active she's she's like an addict in recovery

but like barely like white knuckling it and then and then actually what he does is he tells her something he's never told anybody else actually that he's killed somebody but he's using it to manipulate her so he so he's actually using his vulnerability as a tool to manipulate which is not real vulnerability so he's so he's So he's in a sense becoming more conscious, but then unconsciously using that to be worse than ever.

You know, that's what I think is happening. Yeah, I felt like also Marianne, to me, is one of the most sympathetic characters. Like, I feel the most for her. And so the two of you together makes me the most angry. Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Most upset about it because I feel like Beck, she's ignoring a lot of red flags and she's talking herself into it.

I didn't feel as sorry for her and love turns out to be a serial killer herself but the Marianne is really just lovely and she has a kid and you're also harming her kid yeah I feel like it made me it was the situation that made me the angriest it's also what sets up season four to be so like it points

very very potent actually this isn't a fan question but I do want to ask you this question we've talked about this other very attractive successful actors have played psychotic characters but for some reason

Joe is more likable than all of them and I can't figure out why do people like Joe Here's why I think It's not a good look for me But I think because I'm not trying to play I'm like a serial killer To me it's not a clinical portrait

of a serial killer The whole thing is an allegory It's not It's I grounded in reality I mean, I have to believe everything I'm saying and doing. But I don't at all try to play him like you think a killer should be or would be or could be. Because I actually think the reality of us, you know, the whole world is like, well, the whole world, the Western, let's call it the Western white world, maybe. Or some faction, some percentage of the world seems to be really fascinated with the case of the serial killer.

And I honestly think that that It's a reflection of many things But like serial killers From what I understand You know they don't have like a wide emotional range Like they're not you know The whole point is that they don't have access to that place So they're not emoting in the way that Joe does constantly

They're not actually They wouldn't be torn off about leaving their son In that way They probably wouldn't be You know like so supportive of young people As Joe often is They wouldn't actually care about these things. They're actually narcissists and sociopaths

to the degree that they don't, you know. And so to me, like, I just play Joe as Joe, who is kind of like a, you know, he's a fascinating creation. And there's moments that might really reflect the pathology of a serial killer, but there's plenty of moments that I think don't. And nor should they, nor is that what I think the show is trying to do.

It's just, I think it's an exploration of, like, modern themes around masculinity, and love and so I just play into that also gossip girl that's why I think people

already have an affection for you I'm like hey is Dan's got dance like are you announcing a crossover are we just like Penn

if you had to describe season four in one word what would it be yeah yeah You know, I joke or how I, like, can't answer questions quickly. The joke or the factual statement.

One word? Only one? Nope. That'll make more sense when you see it. Okay. Is this a reference to the Jordan Peel movie? Yeah. Like, is a cloud that doesn't move.

No, no, because nope is, by the way, first movie I saw in three years. Nope. In theaters? Yeah. Highly recommended. I'm just going to recommend other projects. It was like, this has become a, hence curated media. No, I really did, by the way, we could talk about Nope for a while.

I really loved it. Yeah. It's an incredible film. I feel like I saw something in that movie that is literally, maybe I've never seen before. But what were we saying? One word about my show. Season 4, just boil it down in a way. It's 4.

You said it's Nope. It's Nope. Yeah. It's Nope. Nope. It's Nope. It's Nope unrelated to Jordan Peel. Got it.

Just for fun, can you do the same for seasons, one, two, and three? Just for fun, can you answer the question? Because that'll orient us to, like, how you categorize those seasons. Okay. First season, first season is, uh, first season is, oh, second season is, really? Third season is still, four season, nope. Oh, I like that. See, there's a concept.

It took a while to get there, but I like how you did. that and we'll be right back all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting

nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and i'm telling you um even before us i've done ads for these guys it was a product that i uh i really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that i use i use i use uh the what is it called liposomal vitamin c and it tastes delicious like really really good um comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i think it tastes great i use

the liposomal uh glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and eight which is really good for for i think mood and stress i sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three of these things taste incredible um honestly you you don't even need to mix it with water uh uh and yeah i just couldn't recommend them highly enough if you want to try them out go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge

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is struggling, this is a smart investment that you can make in their learning. A single hour of tutoring costs more than a month of IXL. Don't miss out. One in four students in the U.S. are learning with IXL, and IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. an impact on your child's learning. Get I-XL now. And Podcrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up today at IXL.com slash podcrushed. Visit Ixl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Okay. Did COVID cause any shifts in storylines? On any season. Yeah. Really only the third.

What changed? Well, there was like, we just couldn't have that many people together. So, like, there were scenes that just had to be really cut down and, and, you know, typically, you want production value, you know? And so you want scenes with lots of people. You want to go into locations where there's, like, hundreds of people at some point. They couldn't do that. So, like, there were party scenes that just got cut down to, like, oh, now we're setting up. It's not very interesting.

Having to do intimacy scenes, because there were so many in season three, when there was a global pandemic. How the hell did you guys, like, media? that how did you feel about it were there discussions about cutting them down there was one fantasy scene that included four people on top of the not fantasy fours i was like there was already there was already foursomes which is an eightsome it's an aggregate eightsome which is a fourgey one word for season four g no it's not you'll see uh what was the question what am i doing here why did we agree to do this something like intimacy scene during a global pandemic?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that about? What was that about? Oh, they were doctor approved. Pretty sure they, pretty sure they bribed him. He wasn't a doctor. He just, he just, he had one of those estethoscope. He was listening to my, to my, to my, to my, to my femur.

It's just like, yeah, no, it sounds normal. Yeah, it's good. I don't think COVID affects you here. Were you in Victoria freaking out? Because thinking about like the height of the pandemic, when people were taking such precautions to like not even touch a surface that someone else had to touch and you guys had to make out. No one, no one ever.

when anywhere like season three lockdown also with a kid at home a toddler we were we were we were we were we were we were we were we were did not do like one extra extracurricular thing with cast crew

not a like it was full on we're going to ask you some character plot specific so excited so excited all right I thought this was a fun question from a fan if love had married a faithful Normie, do you think

she still would have been running around killing people? Faithful Normie is a great little band name or something. Do I think she still would have been, what? Running around killing people. All right, or was she had married someone that wasn't Joe, basically. No, she's a killer. She was killing people before Joe. Watch the show, you know? Okay, I don't agree with this. Sorry. I love it. I love it. Let's have a hot take.

I love it. She only killed one person. And it was in self-defense. It was, you know, to take care of of her brother, like, I feel that you brought it out of her. I mean, not you Joe. Wait, was there a plotline where she also killed her husband or no, he died of natural causes? She killed her husband. She killed her husband. I totally missed her. She killed her husband.

Her husband died of cancer. She also killed... I think it was implied that she speeded his death up. He did? Yes. Yeah. Okay, I need to watch. I need to rewatch. But yeah, did she kill him? So I actually forget if they

I think they might have changed that I think um yeah No she did So season three that was so season two We actually already knew that We I think they were gonna reveal that in season two But then they they were going to reveal that season two But then I think they were like

They were like no we can just put this in season three Somehow I totally miss that And I want to know if anyone else Who is a you watcher also missed that Because for me I felt like But the whole point is love is a serial killer I didn't know that I mean, the whole point is it, the whole point is the whole,

no, but really, the whole conceit is like Joe actually found the only person who could be perfect for him. He found his perfect much. And he hates her because she reflects himself to him. So I'm just going to ask you this off the heels of this. I think, I think it's obvious. But one question that we got a few times was, who did Joe love more, Beck or love? That question makes me, like, uncomfortable because you're saying love, like it's love.

Murdered both. You decide. Next question. I think it's obvious. I think Beck. because he did i think he only offed or his feelings were more intense for beck i think he only off to beck because she caught him but love he wanted to get rid of like he kept trying to get rid for all season wait i'm just trying to i'm trying to process this um in the logic of you pen not in the

logic of like yeah yeah yeah uh no i i i disagree i i i think okay in the logic of the show which character does he care about more i think back I think he was sadder to kill Beck than he was to kill love. No, actually, to me, to me first season, Joe is the most troubling, the most, the saddest, the most, yeah, it's actually surprising how much it makes me be like, like trying to talk about, even though, you know, we're here having fun. Talking about Beck and love, love as a phenomenon as a force is the most powerful force in the universe. Let's just say feelings for it. We don't have to say love. Feelings for... He has some kind of feelings for these people.

I was like, get the content! Ben's trying so hard. Stop trying to elevate this. I just get, yeah. No, I don't... I know. I think... Because I think...

Because I think he honestly wanted to rescue Beck. He wanted to be the White Knight. Love... He actually resist... Oh, no, he didn't. He actually stalked her from the beginning. I forgot that reveal. Yeah.

But then Hmm Joe's a slippery fish He stopped having feelings for love The moment he found out her true nature But that was episode 9 It was the whole season He stopped having feelings for Beck

He never stopped having feelings for Beck He just killed her He did it That's how she discovers the box And his attic or whatever And then he puts her in the cage And he's trying not to kill her And he actually when she tricks him

He decides to let her out So that they can have a life together And then she tries to attack him And he kills her So he never lost feelings for Beck Right Like till the very end He wants to like

it a shot and then she turns out and he kills her but what about when he's chasing her up the stairs he's lost just feelings for her by her no he's just killing her because she knows his true nature no but what about she's because she's with the therapist right isn't he like uh yeah but technically I think that probably inflames his like you know the way betrayal can be like

yeah make it hard to let go I think if you watch the first season again you'll find that he kills her because she discovers his true nature he kills love when he discovers her true nature therefore he's repulsed by love he's never repulsed by back deep cut 10 something I'm really curious about and something that someone asked us as well was how do you feel filming really

gruesome scenes and what do you do to sort of prepare yourself or to be able to get through really awful acting scenes straight up these days it's like it's just is a it is a hardcore prayer regimen and meditation i mean it before scenes like that i mean i really am probably yeah often um i can't have food in my stomach so i'm often in a kind of empty sort of like a shell of a person, would you say? No, I would say, only in that the body is a shell for my soul. No, I,

can we just do that more? Can we just, can we just sing carefully? I think you do that often. When you're doing it enough. No, I really, I really, I really, in the moment sometimes, actually honestly, before and after the take is way more. Sometimes I'm like, whoa, I can barely,

when you really try to take dead on and look even even even speaking of what i'm doing from a completely conceptual secular sense like if i'm really trying to process this reality of what somebody's doing like this this is awful awful worst of humanity really right yeah um if i'm really processing that and and present with it ooh it's like the worst so so so honestly before and after takes are sometimes when i actually break down and then during it it's kind of like well some other halfway you know mid So when you break down, like right after a scene, have you ever had a director or someone like console you? Do they ignore it? Like, what's that like to have that happen in front of people? Or does it happen in your trailer?

No, I think it's, I think it's quieter than that. I think some people might just, you know, they'll be quiet or, you know, respectful. I actually had to do that as a director this season in episode nine for my, yeah, for someone. And actually, you know what? I've done that a few times, I think, on this show. Because this show is dealing with a lot of heavy stuff. And like primal feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really, it's really intense. Is there an episode or a scene where you got the script and you were horrified to, not by the script, but to have to act that out and thinking, like, how am I going to do this? Can you tell us?

Script one, script two, script three, script one, every scene, every episode, every season. Are we talking about 30, 40 episodes? No, and I mean, look, Greg and Sarah, the creators of the show, since day one, A1, they have, they said, this is part of why they wanted me for it and I it's not judging Joe it's like look from an objective point of view it's horrific and you know it's like I could appreciate the storytelling value you know this this the the arc of this allegory and all the and and and the enjoyment people get out of it but but for for you know six months of the year for like 12 to 14 hours a day I'm like I'm the person who has to sort of be this dude so it so it doesn't I don't get to read the

script and be like, I just don't have this, I'm not supposed to have the same perspective as anybody else in, in terms of this show. It's only when I'm able to watch an episode, maybe like for the second time that I'm like, oh, that's really good. I'm like, oh, that's clever. You know, as Joe's doing something awful, but then there's like a really darkly comic sort of thought underneath it, it's only like after the fact that I'm often able to be like, yeah, that's pretty good. But getting into like a nuts and bold sea, which is my favorite thing to do, was there a scene though that was like when you read the script you're like oh fuck like i don't want to film this scene like it's going to be so hard or intense and i think the person the fan also added was there a scene

that you weren't worried about that ended up being really difficult like unpredictably difficult to film yeah um there was a scene this season that i can't talk about um cool cool cool uh you know handling handling the fake dead bodies is actually surprisingly hard what okay wow tell us about that it's just kind of turns your stomach because the skin is feels real. There's actually real human hair. What is it made of? No, no, no. What is it made of? Oh my gosh. It's made of people. That's our teaser trailer.

People. Like, does it look plasticy or? It's pretty real. Wow. I mean, yeah, it's pretty weird. This season there was a scene. Wait. There was a scene where I'm like, I am actually covered in blood. like in a jumpsuit that has a hood and goggles and I'm covered in blood

and they had to put pieces of meat on the on a table saw and there was really dark fake blood on the table and I walk in and it's funny it was like we had to do we had to add some bits so I'm like

basically like I wasn't really mentally prepared We like shot a whole of the scene and like, all right, we just got to shoot this like insert. So like, okay, I'm putting on the whole thing. They spain me with the blood and I'm just like, oh, no, fuck, okay, okay, let's go in and we do it. And we walk in and it's like, you know, 6 p.m. but the sun's still out

because it's like summer in London and then suddenly I'm in this little room that's full of atmosphere of fake smoke for lighting and just like fake blood on a table saw and like bits of human remains. And I was like, it just took my spirit and my mood and just plummeted. And I was like, ugh. Because, you know, it's just sensory.

It's like you see it. And it's just, you're not really meant to see that unless you're seeing it. And so you're nervous system. It's just kind of like, yeah. And then you go home to your kids. Stick around. We'll be right back. Fall is in full swing.

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We have a couple of like quick Well, we'll see with you Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Okay, what's your favorite one-liner from Joe? No. You know how many times I've had to say no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no, no. No, no, no, no, those are me.

Yeah. Because there were so many knows, and I'm like, it doesn't, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, what's interesting? The hardest word, the hardest thought to have as Joe is, damn it. Really? There's so many others. Damn it. Does not roll off the tongue.

So that's your least favorite one-liner, but no is your favorite one-line. You know, when somebody asks me about my favorite something, I'm always like, can I start with least favorite? Yeah. There's something in there. That's just the character. flaw I have. Okay. What is your favorite Joe Goldberg meme?

This is a two-part question, but let's start with that part. What is your favorite Joe Goldberg meme from the previous seasons? Yeah, no, I've said this before. It's the nails. It's the nails and the hair. That's good. Okay. Yeah, the nails in the hair. And he's just like, what's he doing?

He's like many things. Yeah. Multi-purpose. Is there a moment in season four that you can imagine becoming a meme? And if you can't give us that moment, just give us a little cryptic thing that we can put together when we watch it. Yeah. We'll all just have to imagine it.

Yeah, it's... There is one. Yeah, there is one. I'm not telling you. There is one. See, I just... I'm really hedging my bets even more unusual because, like... I know.

No, this is totally fair. I mean, you could probably get fired or something. Yeah. They won't fire me. You've got them... Yeah, so then... You've got them where you want them. Just go hand.

They can't find me. They got to cancel the show. It's a... It's at the end. See, like the 10th episode. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Cool. I can't wait. So exciting. Okay. As Joe, FMK, Beck, love, Marianne. It was a very serious question. When I was studying conservatory, this was, this is what I was prepared for. I thought, F, K.

Doth he K? He doth? First of all, Joe's a murderer. Let's just. So it's basically K for any and all. Even if he fails, even if he can't get him, he's going to try to K. True. But that said, what is it, what's the distinction?

So, so, so, so, so, so, so. I'm not going to say it. It's like who's carnal, who does he love and who does he hate. Explain. The deeper implications of, I, I, I just, so, so, so, so. Oh, God. Just, by the way, this is supposed to be rapid fire. Yeah, come into the fire with me

See what's rapid about it Is how your skin sizzles And you lose all sensation in your limbs Beck is Mary Because he's crazy And that's what he thinks Love is kill Oh no, but then Mary Ann truly loves

I think Mary Ann is Is that the third person? Mary Ann was probably Mary Beck and love is okay yeah okay this was an interesting question that we actually got from multiple fans should Joe end up in this situation what would his last meal be what does this man eat yeah actually there's also a question like is he vegan would he ever heard of animal you know they tried to put some vegan sausage in um in uh Joe's pants

Oh my God Come on Come on It's too good Living up to the middle school aspect Of the show What does this have to do With middle school

You can skip it if you This is a totally No I meant this whole thing They try to put vegan sausage In Joe's freezer in London And I was like No he's not he's not vegan He does give off weird vegan vibes

I guess but no last meal would involve coffee of some kind and in and uh and uh just feel like like steak feel like just one plain steak in the middle of the plate rare because it's like it's like it's like symbolic it wants his life to be like a novel written by yeah okay given joe's dark heart Why do you think it's so important for him to have a virtuous woman? So it's two parts. I mean, I think he's like he's he's traumatized in his childhood. So the hardness of his heart is, is, is, is not feeling safe ultimately in the world.

Which thing causes him to need to control and manipulate people, which ultimately ends in their death. If he goes that far, you know, and I think that checks out with, I mean, it's a gross oversimplification. but I think that checks out with the sort of with the behavior people who are capable of this and then and then in terms of like seeing in another woman needing that virtuosity I think that's I think that's you know that condition I just described magnified by you know all those sort of modern toxic conceptions of of of masculinity and femininity and purity and yeah I mean so it's it's it's it's it's an archetype and it's a fantasy that doesn't exist even if you theoretically get it. a virtuous person or something like that so i you know it's i actually think in that way it's pretty relatable and pretty pretty universal pretty pretty relevant you know i think i think boys do grow up and girls i mean i think all people are growing up with that archetype of like a woman should represent like this level of purity and virtue virtue that is that is impossible you know that that that that fantasy was shattered was when he realized his mom you know

couldn't be everything for him and I think everybody has that experience at some point at some point your parents become human and it's a matter of how you respond to that if you Penn Badgley could have a conversation IRL in real life with Joe Goldberg what would you want to ask him

if I am actually me who I am and I'm like I've kind of been meditating on him so let's say he was a person I was obsessed with or I like had you know and he somehow I could meet him in a controlled circumstance but like and he was interested in listening to me and by the way it would be in my tone it would not be the question is simple but it would be in my tone I really at this point and I think I've been clear about how much I detest all of his deeds so in that context I would actually try to love him because the truth is he's never gotten that.

So I would ask Joe, I honestly, I just feel like I would look at him for a long time. And because of my relationship to him, I would try to love him. I'm not saying that he deserves that. That's what you should do. Yeah. I'm not saying that he deserves that. I'm not saying anybody else should do that. I'm saying I would try to love him.

Kind of the same. We asked this question at the end of our show. What would you do for your 12-year-old self? It's the same. Same. He's the same. He needs that. He needs love.

It's like I would hug him. I would hug him. And I would just, yeah. I would hold them. I would hold them. I would hold them. Yeah. I think that's a good distinction. Yeah. You are kind of, you're, you are more safe than most people in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly that. It's exactly that. That I'm not, yeah. Yeah. Kind of, kind of hits.

Yeah. Yeah. In that context. There was a sub question to that, which was, what do you think Joe Goldberg would say to the real pen badgely if he had a chance? Well, so it's the conversation of that. So, like, what would happen after that? And I'm imagining him saying, like, I feel like this is some strange gestalt. Like, I'm in therapy right now with Joe. Yeah. I feel like he, I'm completely creating this in my head, but I feel like, let's go there.

Yeah. I feel like he's weeping and he's saying, I'm sorry, you know. Keep in mind, like, in this. fantasy that is happening spontaneously right now on camera surprisingly moving yeah it's because

at the end of the day he is a human being now I'm not saying that means he's deserving I'm not saying any of that but he is a human being and this is a fantasy because you cannot create a situation where this would necessarily happen between two people right so that's why this like doesn't happen

so I'm not saying that this could happen should happen like go try but i think if i really loved him at least for a moment a wall would come down and if that wall came down he he would feel what he's done and he and he wouldn't just be remorseful i mean i do feel like it's just this profound sadness and maybe for a moment he's he's seeing that and i just so to me it's not it's not a conversation it's really like it's an exchange of love that has to be possible between any two individuals maybe only in theory but it's still like yeah

between two human beings that that connection and and you know I'm not saying it would transform not saying you're like stay in your cell I go home to my family okay you know Joe all right visiting hours are over

but we had a moment I recently this is kind of off topic but I recently had an experience in therapy where my therapist had me act out a scenario where I had to imagine having a conversation with someone And then the second time I did it It was with my own 17 year old self

And I went into it like This is so ridiculous This is not gonna work And then when I actually did it It was incredibly moving I feel like that Thing you just did With Joe and Penn

That's a that exercise Is really transformative I agree I have done that before too actually Like with my childhood self Years ago I'm gonna do it again but yeah

I feel like I had to kind of stop it from going further because otherwise it'd be really vulnerable but yeah what's your hottest take on the characters slash the show I am I not just full of hot takes I've been hot taking

so I want to know your hottest I think my hottest take was going to therapy with Joe Goldberg and hugging that day that was the hottest take if you've ever had so a final question that we always ask our guests on Podcresh is if you could go back to your 12-year-old self, spend some time with him, what would you say?

So we want to ask you, if Joe could go back to his 12-year-old self, what do you think he would say? He would say some really dumb shit. He actually would, because if you think about who Joe is, he would be a bad mentor. Yeah. I actually think he, you know, he would say, kind of like what he said to Paco,

which is actually really messed up. He said something like, people meet protecting or something. you know technically joe was grooming paco to be like him at the end he never picked up on that at the end well but i mean think about it paco at the end he closed the door on back and she died right where's paco find paco yeah and it's because you were his role models i didn't think about that shows the importance of role models honestly yeah totally yeah so so so so so actually joe despite his best efforts would probably say the worst thing so it would be like the opposite of something i would try to say uh you know he you know he

He probably would say, like, it would be about protecting yourself. It would be about being a victor over others. It would be about, it would be like, you know, all the things we call toxic masculinity, like basically speaking to young Joe and trying to indoctrinate him even sooner into that cult. Thank you. Thank you so much. How do we do? You've done a lot of these kinds of panels.

No, no, no. Seaminal job. I love the upholstery that you. This is all us. Yeah, we did this. We labored for days. Thank you for sitting through this. And it was hard at times.

No, this is, this has been nice. This has been nice. Because, I mean, who knows who's interested in hearing some of these long, thought-out questions and answers. But, you know, I got to even feel something new about Joe here. And that's interesting. That's cool. Penn doesn't use a lot of superlatives. So nice from Penn is like.

aces. That's true. That's true. Hyperbole is not my... I love saying hyperbole, but I don't like using it. Because a lot of people would be like, wow, he's really shading his coat. No, that's true. This has been, even in some ways, therapeutic. You know how people come on our show? This show, Black Crush, available on all platforms.

You got Stitcher Premium? You listen to Serious X-M? It's just a few bucks a month, guys. What's one more subscription? Spotify, Apple. You press a button, you forget about it every month. What was I saying? I don't know.

What a lot of guests say about our show is that they come on and they feel like, it's like something therapeutic about it. Something very nice and warming. And I felt that way here. So, you know, before I thought it was just me, frankly, that gave them that. Yeah. You're like, well, my co-hosts might have something. But now that now I see you, maybe it's you.

Season two. Yeah, all right. So we'll keep you on. We keep on. Podcrushed is hosted by Penn Badge lead Navacavalin and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer, editor, and composer is David Ansari.

Our secondary editor is Sharaff and Twistle. This podcast is a ninth mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcrushed. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcrush.com and give us every detail. And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials. It's at Podcrush, spelled how it sounds, and our personals are at Fembadjley, at Nava, that's Nava with three ends, and at Scribble by Sophie. And a big thank you to the serious XM staff at the garage in L.A. for recording today's episode.

And we're out. See you next week. It's just like, I'm too... I'm too good at this. It's not right. about all this pain upon myself, my talent, my impeccable timing, my chisel jaw. It's a, this is all your fault. This is all your fault. Penn every morning in front of the mirror. Stitcher