Podcrushed - Phoebe Robinson

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

Multi-hyphenate talent — actor! writer! comedian! book imprint owner!—Phoebe Robinson (Two Dope Queens, Sooo Many White Guys) struggles to keep her cool in front of Penn, while opening up about why she *wasn't* the class clown when she was younger, the most insulting thing a guy's ever told her during a romantic moment, and what she's learned from her astrologist who's also her life coach. Follow Podcrushed on  socials: InstagramTikTokTwitterSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Like I was just stick thin I had like no curves and so it was just really like literally I look like this Sharpie I kid you not I look like with Sharpie and I have fucking like civil rights

bangs like like truly it was so it was a horrific physical experience Welcome to Podcrushed we're hosting I'm Penn.

I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. I don't know. I think our listeners are way cooler than you too. So we have someone special here in New York with us. His name is Kartik. Oh, I thought you were talking about me. She's a special.

Yeah, right. And I'm always, I'm always here. You're here with me. Kartik has been helping out with some pod crush stuff, behind the scenes, and some 9th mode stuff. And he's so good at his job that I told Nava, he needs to stop. He needs to stop working so hard

because I look terrible. Sophie texted me once and said, Kartik is from another planet. I was like, truly. Where is Kartik from? Another planet. Where is he from? Now that where you're from.

He's on the other side of the glass. Seattle. Seattle. Actually, fun. Fun fact. So David also is from Seattle. And I am from Seattle. You know, David and Kartik went to high school together.

What? Yeah. And Kartik didn't know when he applied for the internship. Cartag didn't know. Crazy. No, he didn't know. Crazy. Interesting.

So anyway, guys, I wish you all a Kartik in your life because it will make your life better. Yeah. Yeah. And what we've done is we've stolen Kartik from the lives he's in, which is his family. Yeah. He has a wife. Like, you have a five-month-old baby, we need you more. We need you.

The baby right now could literally be like, wah! Yeah. He doesn't know. He's not. He's been here. He's been here and it's dark studio. I need more TikTok ideas. I don't know what my kids are doing. My dogs could be pissing all over the floor right now. We just don't know. We are here for you. We are here to bring you the content. You listen to long enough to give us that like and subscribe, that number that our ad buyers respond to. Let's get into this. our guest today is a comedian I gotta say I love having comedians on

all of our guests deliver in some unique way that is true it's not a line I'm not not BSing them or falsely equivalating them or

I'm sure with it equivocating equivocating equating equilating but a comedian is a special It's a special resource. Today we have Phoebe Robinson.

She's a stand-up actor and writer. She's probably best known for co-hosting the hit podcast turned HBO series Two Dope Queens with Jessica Williams, who we also love here. Phoebe is a New York Times best-selling author of many books. I actually feel like she's a profound writer, prolific writer as well. Her first book, You Can't Touch My Hair

and other things I still have to explain and everything's trash, but it's okay. She's got more. She runs a production company called Tiny Reparations that's dedicated to producing content that lifts the voices of women,

people of color, and folks in the LGBTQIA plus spectrum. We really love having her here. I think you're going to love having her here. Stick around. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it?

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Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try-n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sorry. sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad, Loretta Vine, Ava Du René, and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the

legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season two drops July 29. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. Let's set the tone. I'm going to do it. I'm going to look back in the eye. I said, no, I was going to get a Kleenex sponsorship for it.

That's not that bad. No. I don't have hands, Annie. There's some over there. Okay, yes. You know what some? Yes, I hate now. When people don't, after they blow their nose,

I'm like, you're a fucking psychopath. Do you not know what we've been through the past few years? I remember one of my favorite tweets of the entire pandemic. The entire one that I can remember was somebody saying, I can't believe I was raw dog in it on public transportation my entire life. It's so true. It's so true. And now all I can think of when someone coughs is like those infographics, yeah, with like the image of the particles or like the wooshing of the like subway air.

Like as I was, I was like, oh, I'm sure I'm just got like fucking pink eye like getting here. But it's worth it. I'm with you, Penn. Yes, Penn. You're fucking up my eyes. It's okay. This is a hard hitting question. Yes.

From our research shows. Yeah. You're talking about having hay fever since you were a child? Is that right? Yeah, that's legit. Like, when I was a kid, it was like I would be in bed for a few days. Wow. And so last week I did think I had pink eye because my eyes got so red and they were so itchy.

And so I texted a friend. I was like, I think I have pink eye. She was like, that's not good. The next day I was like, just kidding. It's my allergies. And she's like, okay. Thanks for the play-by-play. But it's, you know, I always have bad allergies.

How did that affect you as a kid? Is it a prominent thing for you? Well, I mean, I think as someone who likes to be home and watching TV, I think it was just nice to have an excuse to watch TV. So it's good. I remember having it like

freshman year of college and I was just like, I get to stay in and like watch the sex in the city and the West Wing. Like, I truly was like I'm like not a cool person. But I always just used as an excuse to watch TV. So to helped me get through it.

So it was great then. Yeah, it was fantastic. It's like I can't breathe, my eyes or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I guess, can you define hay fever for us? Because I feel like I've heard people refer to that as like almost it's just, like, I think in London, in Wanderlil. No.

I think in London, they call allergies hay fever. Like it's not, it's not a, it's allergies. Yeah, it just kind of ranges anywhere from something it's insignificant to whatever. But this is something where, like. It was like more significant. It's like, you know. You know, you're just like, you're constantly like running nose. You can't really breathe.

Like, I remember last year when I was shooting my show that got canceled, everything's trash. And we were inside all day. And then we went outside and in 10 minutes, I could not breathe. Like, it was fucking horrible. So that's usually the thing. It's like if I can't breathe and my eyes are watering, I just feel like not a person. So that's, like, really bad for me. Last spring when we were shooting season four of my show, you, I always have to say my show,

you just to be clear which isn't cancelled he is doing very well in his bag he is so he is expensive honey as of season 5 this podcast can no longer afford me

we never could no no it's the spring there was like nothing I'd ever seen in my life there was so much pollen in the air and I don't know if London has this usual I mean they definitely were saying it was unusual but it was everywhere my eyes I would walk outside, and my eyes felt milky.

I could feel it in my throat. And this is a nice way to start out of the interview. Because what I would say was, well, what I was, it is a little bit sexy because what I started saying spontaneous, I was like, never in my life if I felt like I'm walking outside to tree ejaculate. But that's what's happening. It's true. You're getting gizzed in.

It's just non-stop giz. I just want to say that tree ejaculate is not sexy. That's fair. That's fair. I said, let me have this. Let me have this. No, you know, so I went to high school in Beijing. And apparently, so like in Beijing, in the springtime, there's just, like, the ground is covered in white, like, fluffy pollen.

Because apparently, like, there's like a government thing. They bought a ton of trees, planted a ton of trees, and they were all male trees. So there's no. Wait, wait. There are male and female trees? Yeah. It caused an issue where there's just like a ton of pollen. A lot of male violence.

A lot of tree violence A lot of top of the city It goes to show you need the balance It's like the coming in the masculine Wow No no no no no no That's not worth cutting It's staying, okay

So that's merch Honestly tree ejaculate Is merch If we send you some will you wear it? Yes 100%. Do you identify mostly as a writer? I was nervous about where this was going. Do you identify as a tree?

Like seriously, that's what you feel like to me because I mean that's kind of a multi-hyphenate. You're so many things. You're such a dream pen. This is a lot. I'm just telling you got listeners. I just want you. Here's the thing.

Like you think you know. You have no idea. When you see you on TV and then when you're in the room, it's like, holy fuck. Oh, baby. Just want to say, I'm trying to be profesged, but it's hard. Drink your non-sponsored water. My non-sponsor Celsius. Hi, sparkling orange.

Redacted. It's just going to be, the blurry, like, censored image. But seriously, to answer your question, I feel like I am a writer first. Like, it's like what I, like, I used to write short stories all the time as a kid. Sorry, I went off the mic to look at you. All good. But, you know, I used to write stories all the time as a kid. I was a voracious reader.

And so everything else I came after, like, stand up and having the imprint and podcasting and acting. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something, whatever. All that came later. So I think, like, I think, yes. Because whenever someone asked for, like, my little, like, what do you want to say? I always put, like, writer first. It's like writer, comedian actress. So I think, yeah, I do view myself that way.

So what kind of writer were you at 12, 13, 14? Well, I remember, and this is pre-middle school, but I had the biggest crush on my gym teacher. Oh. Mr. Kna with two peas. K-N-A-P-P. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's always where these little, like, dockers. like slacks like he just felt like such a like grown up to me and so you're like that's what I want that's what I need yeah I was like look at this gym teacher honey um but I wrote a story I think I want an award like an award in school for it but I wrote a story um I was a princess and I think my brother got kidnapped and I went to go save him and then I I ended up getting kidnapped. And so my gym teacher saved both of us. And then, like...

It's so sweet. And then me and my gym teacher, like, ended up happily ever after. Which, like, you went an award for you? Which I'm like, good. She wasn't sure. She may not have. They might have been like, no award. But I do remember, like, people being like, oh, it's such a fun story.

I'm like, this is... Looking back, I'm like, this is kind of crazy. Nice, Cleveland, Ohio. What were you doing? It was a different time. It was. Yeah, it was a 90s. Anything went.

Yeah, true. But, yeah, I used to just love, like, writing stories and just, I think I live in my head a lot even now as an adult. Like, I'm always just, you know, just stories and just dialogue is always just floating through my head. I am very voice-driven, whether it's stand-up, writing, whatever. So I always try to sound the most like myself. So, like, everything, like, my sentences are thick, like, T-H-I-C-C. Like, there's a lot happening. A lot of pop culture references.

a lot of horniness but also like kind of smart like I sneak in like a little bit of yeah yeah but writing is just so fun like it's just one of those things where it's like

I just enjoy the process so much like I'll just be writing and like making myself laugh or being like oh this is interesting or like I just love language I love words I just love communication in that way

so it's like my favorite I love that, Phoebe, because I feel like a lot of writers, I sometimes write, and I can be on either side of it, or are miserable writing. Like, it's like, this, like, a miserable experience, but then what comes out makes it worth it. You know, it's like, it's lonely or it's like, I couldn't find the word or, you know, so it's nice to hear someone who, like, you have so much fun writing it. I actually don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that. Well, I mean, I have fun, but then there are also days where I'm like, this is fucking bullshit. Like, every book I've written. I mean, everything is trash.

Yeah. It's so much fun writing. But it's like there's always that balance So there are days where I love it And then days where I'm like If I could just Disappear myself and not have to pay back this advance I would fucking dip out on this book

So it's just it's like this little like dance Like you know I think people always think that Writing is like Carrie Bradshaw on you're just like I can't help but wonder You're wearing like stiletto You know what I mean And it's like that's not what's happening

You know what I mean It's a much more you know It's a much more difficult task. Yeah. When you were in middle school, did you keep a journal? Here's the thing. I've always tried to keep journals. But I'm just always like, I lived it.

And so I would just get bored with myself, just, like, write the recap of the day that I'm just like, no. And even as an adult, I always, like, try. Like, I always start after, like, something really cool happens, and then I never stick with it. Because it's like, that day was, like, a really cool. cool day. So the next day it's just like, oh, I did this audition and I didn't book it. You know what I mean? It's just, I don't want to keep a record of all the rejections. But, yeah, I don't know. That, I feel like you just spoke for me. I feel that way. Like, I always want to keep a journal. I've tried so many times, Navas suggested I do a one line a day journal. I bought

one. I started it. I was like, this is a new me. No, I can't. And I think that's it. I mean, what she was saying, though, one line, I mean... I know, I know. You can't keep up simple routines. In her defense, I got... You can or you won't. I bought a one-line journal. Have not filled it out.

Yeah. Those things are bullshit. But what I did do is it got... Just lost our sponsors? Yeah. Oh, wait. No, I'm getting it. No, no.

Yeah, Celsius. So good. Okay. You're going to have to believe this so much. But no. What I did start doing was a gratitude jar. Oh. A gratitude jar.

Yeah. Yeah. You put it in the jar. Yeah. So it's a jar that says, I got it from 1,800 flowers. Not a plug I was expecting. But one will take.

Shout out. And it's like a little glass jar with the word gratitude on it. And they have like these little like tiny like no cards. And each day I just write like, oh, I'm grateful for therapy or I'm grateful for this or it was my friend's 40th birthday and I got to go to like her dinner.

And that's nice. And that's like easier because you can see the jar and you see it getting. full where I'm just like it's a fucking notebook. Yeah. Notebooks just sit around. Yeah. Do you go back into the jar or is it just a matter of knowing that you've done it and you see it fill up? You can go back

like you like I try and go back in at the end of the year. That's a lot I know but then you pull it out you're like and you remember all of it. Yeah and then sometimes like I'll forget to do it for a week so then like today like before this I sat down and did like last week and I was like oh

last week was fucking great. And I totally forgot that because you're just stressed about work and blah, blah, blah, da, da. And you're like, no, last week was good. So I was trying to do it. I'm recently single. I was trying to do with my ex-boyfriend. You always thought it was such a waste of time. And so I didn't do it.

And then now being single and doing it myself, it's like, it's our best. I'm so grateful. It's over. That he's letting me be grateful again. You know, it's interesting. We just spoke to someone. who was sort of like offering or we asked him to offer some life wisdom and I asked him like what's the the key to a happy life or a good life and he said gratitude so it's really nice that's like that's a

really lovely practice to sort of center your mind on that it's true and I don't think I would have felt that when I was younger I'm now 38 we're the same age Hollywood is going to kick me you have two years yeah I was left and I gotta fucking call it yeah um but um yeah I think The older you get, the more, like, triumphs you have, the more failures that you have, the more just sort of kind of like general, like, this day was fine, you know? Yeah. So you just sort of go, it's just, you just have to be grateful for it all because there is no high that's going to last forever or no low that's going to last forever.

And it's just, can you tell I go to therapy? And I also have an astrologist who's also my life coach. Can you guys tell? I was picking up on something. No. Okay, okay. Dr. Monica Johnson, she's a badass bitch. And then Whitney Howard is my life coach slash astrologist.

And I've been seeing both of them since, like, middle of COVID, like mid-2020, maybe end of 2020. And it's been so great shifting my perspective because I'm very much type A. I do not like change. I'm very much like, but if I just do all the right things, then this should be the outcome. It's really hard for me. and I always deal with disappointment where I'm just like but I don't understand

I did everything right and they're just like there is no right a lot of the times it just is Is that type Are there What is type A

And is there a type B There's There's I think there's Multiple types Type A is very Much Like I just think of like

This motion It's a lot of It's a lot of It's in air traffic It's a lot of You're sort of like obsessed with order so like for me this actually makes me feel better that it's on evenly on as a

like this is like would drive me crazy um and like you just like everything order and like it's a it's a lot of like one and a half control because you know that there is really no control so you just sort of zero in on things that you can really control it's often associated with like CEOs executives like everything in order everything along a routine a schedule I am a creature of habit. Yeah. Like every place I have just like one thing I get from that place and like that's it. Yeah.

Yeah. On that note of gratitude, you reminded me of something that happened in therapy where I was talking to my therapist. I was talking about my husband, David, who is a producer on the podcast. He's not here right now. He usually is. And I was saying like, I just get so frustrated. He's not picking up his laundry.

I like naming things that were frustrating me. And she was like, okay, I have like a tool for you. She's like, next time that happens, just like take a minute, pause and think of some things you're grateful for that he does do. And she was like, let's try it right now. And I was like, okay, I took a moment. And I was like, well, he does make breakfast every single morning. And she was like, there you go. And before that, I was like, I just had totally blocked that out.

I just took it for granted. It's so easy as human beings to just like, if we're left to our own devices, to only think of the negative. He can pick up his clothes. He could. He could. But he's making breakfast every day. Listen, David. You expect the man to make breakfast every day and then pick things up afterward?

Yes. Penn, yes. I'm incredulous. Maybe that's why I'm single, Pim. Because I just. I was imagining a therapist being like, what you do, Sophie, is you pause. You just let it go? And then she just slowly got up and left the room.

She's like, I'm leaving. Okay, wait, just one more thing on gratitude. Yes. I just heard this on a podcast about neuroplasticity, and someone was asking, like, is positive thinking real? Like, does positive thinking attract better results based in science? And the person was saying, like, actually, there's some validity to it because basically where the mind goes, the energy flows. Yeah. So what you think about is where you direct your energy.

So if you think about positive things, like you're going to direct more energy towards them. And I'm saying I really want to get that tattooed because I can be like a very apocalyptic thinker, like crisis. So I really want a tattoo where the mind goes, the energy flows. You're actually thinking of it? I'm really thinking about it. I kind of love that. I love that for you.

You should do it. I think I'm going to do it. For some reason, that phrase, I love that for you. Like, recently I used it for the first time. I said, I text on the podcast thread. I just like, love that for him. And it's, why is that funny? It's like nuance because it's like I do love that, but for you.

Yeah. I don't I really like I want a tattoo I'm too scared Let's go together Yes Oh my gosh That would be so cute

Just so you know My wife is on the other end She has so many She's now thinking about getting some removed Really So you know Maybe once you start She has such a beautiful tattoo

She does She does She actually wants to get a very small one removed To see To see How that goes Wait why does she want them removed She's just like over them

You know I don't want to speak for her? I think I think I'm not sure I think it is kind of like I mean look

I have one tattoo if it's anything like mine after a while I actually think no matter how much they meant they don't mean that anymore I just like yeah I did that when I thought

it meant something and it did for some time and it looked cool as well and maybe now it's just I don't know wow maybe it's our toddler who is

I think he started noticing them and I'll be like what that you know i'd be like what's what is that he also started drawing on himself a lot like on his hands and she has tattoos all over her hands and i think it bothered i didn't really mind but i think

yeah don't want to speak for her hey baby i'm dumb um i think it bothered her and then i think she looked at his hands and looked at her she was like well i can't really can't really tell him no there can i yeah i got my first and only tattoo at 24 like a full adult me too that's yeah yeah and i was so terrified to tell my mom. I knew she was going to be livid. That's 24.

But eventually I told her on the phone and there was just a long pause and then she said, I can't help but think this is symptomatic of something deeper. I love that. That is amazing. When I was 18, I was thinking of getting a tattoo and I told

my mom, my mom was like, to me she seemed very conservative at the time. I was like, Mom, I'm thinking of getting a tattoo. What do you think? And she was like, She was like, yeah, what about a nose piercing? She's trying to redirect to her. That's so cute. It's really cute, yeah.

Did you ever get a nose piercing? No, no, no. I don't want to draw attention to it. Let's keep moving. And we'll be right back. All right, so let's just real talk, as they say, for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it?

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Who were you like really close with at 12 or 13 Who were you hanging out with Who were you getting inspiration from? Oh gosh I had this best friend Her name was Chloe And so I don't know if this term is still allowed

But I was kind of a tomboy Can you say that still? Yeah, yeah, I think so I think so Okay, great I know So if he doesn't look thrilled with it I don't know

Yes Yeah I feel I don't know where we are in the coach I don't know I don't know I'm going to start that we should put that

for we should refer that to the tribunal or something but I used to like playing like pick up basketball

with my older brother and his friends really into sports really into I was like also like watching stuff like

I was watching like Melrose place when you're like why are you watching that at 12 oh yeah oh yeah I remember

When people, like, 12-year-olds would come up to me during the Gossip Girl years, and I'd just be like, what? But I was just like, and I was watching, like, Ali McBeal. Like, it was just like... The dancing baby? Yes, a dancing baby. I remember those commercials at 12. Yes, they were huge.

You got chock, you can't stop. And the baby's just... Man, take it back. But, yeah, and so I think I, like, I had, like, a small, like, crew of friends. I think more boys than girls. but yeah I like didn't give a shit about school which used to drive my parents so crazy

I never really applied myself like I did enough just to get like passing grades and like whatever but yeah I just was like hang out the playground go home I like to spend a lot of time with myself which I think

is a common trait among a lot of stand-up comics which is not to me that like I didn't like go out and like hang out with people but like I could be alone for a while and be like oh this is fun like I'm a good hang I like that too

but I didn't didn't go in a stand-up There's always time When did you realize you were funny Oh god I think I always knew I was funny I was not a class clown because it had self-respect Yeah

I wasn't desperate for it all right um but i would just always be the person in class making like little side comments that were funny or like you know i think i was like voted funniest in high school or something like i just was always just making people laugh but i didn't want to do that like i didn't register that as anything because i was so like oh i'm not the hot girl so i was so obsessed with the fact that it was not the hot girl and i was very depressed about that um so i didn't even realize i was like that funny i was just like whatever i'm like all these cute boys in school and none of them like me.

And then when I graduated high school, I went to Pratt and I was like, I'm going to write serious movies. Like, I was like, I am going to write the next American Beauty, like that trash back from the wind. Yeah, I was like, you're looking for your paperback. Yeah, I'm like, that is me.

And so I literally just took a stand-up class at Caroline's RIP when I was 23, going on 24, because the girlfriend didn't want to take it by herself. But I never really cared much about stand-up. I was like, that's not a real job. Like, I truly, like, didn't give a shit. And that, like, changed my whole entire life. And that's when I was like, oh, I think being funny is, like, my purpose.

Wow. Which is crazy. Yeah. How so cute as things can be. But, yeah. We like to use embarrassing stories or, like, stories of heartbreak, you know, like, first loves, that kind of vibe. Because you're so, you're so uniquely awkward then. You specifically.

Yeah, I was like, how do you know that about you? You specifically. That would be a weird. We've heard the stories. Drag me, Penn. Right into the glass cage. You know, yeah, like, you don't have to have one. I do.

So this will, I was kind of a late bloomer in terms of dating and boys. And so I'll talk about one of the first guys I dated when I started doing stand-up. So this was 2008. And I won't say his name. What can I? Dave. No. Your husband is his name.

No, those are just coming up with that. It's okay. Mark. We know Dave. Dave doesn't do laundry. How about Brian? Just so we throw them off.

Oh, yeah, Brian. There we go. Brian. His name is so far from Brian. But we met outside, I think, comic strip life. So there's a comedy club, like, in the 70s. And, like, when you start out doing stand-up,

you're just desperate for stage time. And it's so funny. Like, when I started doing stand-up, my parents were like, doing like sold out shows over the city right and I'm like no I'm doing stand up in front of like 15 foreigners who don't speak English like this is this is what we're doing this is my college degree um and so I met him online like waiting to like audition for to get stage time at this club and then we just like sort of hit it off he was like really funny he's like kind of dorky and I'm

kind of dorky so I was like oh this is so cute and then you know things were good we like started like a little like I used to run this shitty bar show at Manchester Pub which I think is no longer but it's in Midtown on Monday nights during Monday night football and so I bought like a shitty microphone and amp from PC Richards

and son and we was standing in a corner booth and like yell jokes and if someone turned around we knew it was a good joke Oh you mean literally during Monday night football Like it was happening in front of you And you were competing with it We did it in like a corn booth And people would be sitting at the bar

Literally watching the game Wow It was but it makes you like strong Because it's like you're like No one's paying attention I don't give a shit So you know There were a couple like red flags

About this guy One A couple red flags But you know when you're like You know 24 and desperate for love you're like, I just want a romance. So one time when we were fooling around getting Randy, Penn, close your ears.

But he was going down on me and he's coming. This is how it happens, did you not know? You cup the vagina. I'm trying to close my ears, but I have. fucking headphones on. And just so, you know, you have to cup the vagina and then get in there. No. So, so he was going down on me and then he goes, you're too wet down there.

No. Yes. And I'm not the only wife of other girlfriends who have had guys say this to them, which I'm always just sort of, I'm glad, I'm glad you, I'm glad they weren't saying. That guy always says the same thing to me. He always is saying the same. Brian. He gets around.

He gets around. But other girlfriends have had other guys say that to them. I'm always like, that just means compliments from the chef, you dumb fuck. That's a good thing. So, of course, I was like, we're going to keep dating. So he would just do, like, sort of weird things like that. And then one night we were, like, having, like, our date night. And so he takes me, it was some restaurant in Union Square that I don't think exists anymore.

So we go out to dinner. Zen palette. No, you don't remember the name of it. But we were hanging out and we had a lovely dinner and then we had dessert. We have Flawn and he dumped me over Flawn and was just like, yeah, this isn't going to work, blah, blah, blah, blah, like whatever. It's not me, it's you, da-da-da-da-da. And like, it's not you. Oh, no, wait.

It's not you. It's not you. But what he meant was the flan was too wet. He was like, this flon is a microcosm of the macro. This is Penn's stand-up audition. How's they doing? I'm telling you, when you're sick of you, move on to stand-up. You got the chops.

But that was like such a bummer heartbreak because it was just like we were starting shows together and doing show. You're feeling like, oh, we're like a baby comedy couple together. and then this guy just thinks you're like not great. Yeah. Are there any comedy couples?

Megan and Nick Offerman. They're like the only ones I can think of. They're cute. Yeah. I feel like comedy couples don't work out. Yeah. What about, she's so famous. She's in bridesmaids. Kristen Wig?

No. Maya Rudolph? Is it a comedy? Oh, Elizabeth McCarthy. What about her and her husband? Oh, yeah, yeah. But I think of him as more of a writer than a comedian. But I guess he's a comedy writer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Great. We thought of five. Not even.

We thought of two. Two. Yeah. Two. Okay. I also can't do math. He can't math. But yeah, that was a sad one.

You start a chapter of your own book talking about when you were 14. You say, uh, since I was 14, my brain has been consumed with all the ways my body is not good enough, meaning not attractive to straight dudes and or failing to meet fashion industry standards. Even now at 34 and with a deeper understanding of how we've been conditioned that. to have unhealthy relationships with our bodies. I still remember what I weighed eight years ago as if that's important information. If you were to throw out a year at me, I could, without fail, tell you what size I wore.

I know. It's a bummer. I'm going to keep going. Every day, no, because this next part is really what I wanted. This is where you make so many compound references. Every day, I struggle not only with rewiring my brain to not equate self-worth with how my body looks, but also with not letting men in clothing companies define my own gaze

but because the old noggin has been busy accruing its 10,000 hours and then some and mentally hadukening me via negging about my physical appearance there's so much knowledge I don't possess

and in its place a big chunk is dedicated to straight male societal approval but more on that later first I have to address the lack of information in my brain first of all doesn't seem like there's any lack

the fact that you knew how to spell haducan I mean I was at first I was like what is this is she spelling haduca Of course, you gotta. I'm a dork. But so, I mean, this is such a...

And by the way, I want to say that, like, I think that level of insecurity is basically universal, but then, of course, it manifests in different ways in us. So not to say, like, oh, what was that like? How are you so insecure? But, you know, like, when did you notice that shift? I can remember from myself when I was about 15, like a certain moment where suddenly everything shift.

and I was like the weight of gaze I guess or the weight of the way other people looked at me the weight of suddenly like oh everything is different now it really was it really was kind of like I can remember that so it sounds like if you're saying since you were 14 I'm curious if you can reflect on maybe what what causes that shift

what for you was that I think it was a lot of things like growing up I desperately wanted to look like Tyra Banks I was like to me I was like she is just the most beautiful black woman I've ever seen and I want to look like that in a swimsuit and I'm not ever going to do

I'm in A cup not going to have tities like that but I remember there's this girl I'm going to say her name Emily Frazier and my grade and I had my three like closest dude friends Will Brian and Anderson

and Emily just had like the perfect set of boobs just like Like, it was just like, you know, like if you're casting someone in like a teen, like raunchy rom-com, like she would be the dream girl, you know, just flawless skin, beautiful like brown, long hair. And they would just always just say like how pretty she was. And I was just like, I am so far from that. You know what I mean? So you just sort of know, you like notice sort of like the markers for like conventionally attractive people and you go, I'm either in that or I'm not.

And usually people will let you know very quickly if you are or not. So I think that was always just sort of a thing. Like I was just so stick thin. I had like no curves. And so it was just really like literally I look like this Sharpie. I kid you not. Like with Sharpie and I have fucking like civil rights bangs. Like truly.

It was so, it was a horrific physical experience high school. But yeah, you just notice, like, the pretty girl's getting asked out for prom, like, right away. And, like, you know, you just, like, find, like, one of your guy friends who, like, you'll go with, but, you know, it's not romantic or anything. So it's just all those, like, little tiny, like, cuts where you just go, like, oh. And I think that happens for everyone. And so you sort of figure out what is the way that I can get attention or, like, get approval or, like, how people like me. So I think I always just sort of was like, oh, just have, like, the fun personality. And, like, that'll be, like, my way of, like, sticking.

out or like whatever because I knew that in the looks department like I couldn't compete with like the Emily Fraser's of my grade yeah yeah yeah what was it like growing up in the suburbs of Cleveland Ohio like did you feel like you had other people other black people who you felt like you could be in community with who you felt camaraderie with or were you mostly surrounded by white people yeah so I went to Gilmore Academy which is like a predominantly white school so looked it up looks like a is a Montessori school yeah so it goes all the way up. Yeah.

And it's a really great school, great education. I didn't apply myself. Again, sorry, mom and dad. I've made up for it now. But yeah, I was like, was I the only black girl in my grade? I think I was. By the time I graduated, I think I was the only black girl in my grade. So it was just sort of like, you know, you kind of feel like a fish out of water, but

probably in ways that you can't always really really. articulate or process, you know, and I went to Pratt, which is, you know, a little bit, it's obviously much more diverse than my high school experience. But, yeah, you just sort of, when I was in high school night, I graduated 2002, so 98 to 2002. And so it was just like, it was a good time for representation in terms of TV. So it was like I could see like Moesha and like all these shows and Martin. So I feel like, oh, this is like, I remember like watching. living single and I was like oh my god

Queen Latifah's like in New York and she has like her own magazine I'm like oh I can like live in New York one day so I was able to like have like those like dreams and aspirations but I do look back on it now and I'm like as much as I liked Gilmore I do

wonder how I would be different if I went to a more diverse school and also think about that with HBCUs like if I did that instead of an art school I'm like, what would be different? But then I'm like, there's so much that's like deliciously wonderful about my life

that I think it was just for me to be here with you guys. It all had to happen this way. So I try to be like very like at peace with stuff but it definitely did feel like I was never going to be like someone's ideal or someone's type. I think it's like how I felt.

Yeah. Is that sad? Am I breaking the room down? Should I do another half for Celsius? Yeah, please do. Well, I do. No, I totally relate to all of that. And I, like, six years ago, there was someone that I was, like, really interested in, like, really went for it.

He did not reciprocate. But I remember my friend Molly, we were driving somewhere, and I was, like, sort of recapping something. And she was like, can I tell you something? She's like, you're not, you're clearly not his dream girl. And she's like, I can tell you who his dream girl is. It's really obvious, like, what that is. But you're someone's dream girl. So, like, focus your attention on that.

It was like, no one had ever said it quite like that, but it's true. Like, you're someone's, you're many people's dream girl. Well, you have to find one that you like, too. For sure, for sure. Yeah. 100%. But, yeah, it can, it's painful feeling to be like, oh, like, this isn't what people are looking. I'm not what someone's looking for.

Yeah. And you're just sort of like, well, I don't understand why because you're like, you know, you're like, I don't feel ugly, you know what I mean? Yeah. But it's sort of like you're in this no man's land. where it's like you're not going to be the most desirable or like whatever so you're just kind of like

fuck well what do I do so I just became funny well you're also very funny and successful which some people don't like it was interesting also I mean a moment ago I feel like what you were talking about was I mean the manifestation of

that kind of superficial judgment is also it finds it's like most ugly and unique embodiment in racism you know and so I mean it's like that's Well, we can... And today we talk about race. But you're right.

Like, for those white boys, I was never going to be, like, the dream girl. You know what I mean? So it's just sort of like that was never going to happen for me. You could have been, but also the messages that they're getting from media. They also, like, what is their dream girl? Well, who's building their dream girl? Yeah. Yeah.

The way you told it, it feels like it has wisdom, and then the more you try to plumb that whole dream girl thing, I feel like it's... Well, I don't know, but my friend. Molly, I mean, she was even describing, like, a personality type that wasn't that. Right, right, right, right. I think what she was something to me is, like, you're too straightforward for this guy. Yeah. He wants, like, he wants, like, a really soft, like,

yeah. Yeah, he just wants something different that's not you. Just going to laugh at all his jokes, but never make a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He doesn't want someone to call him out on stuff. Type B. That's the name of your special. Penn, type B. Yes. Wow, that's a guy.

Oh, my God, that should be the name of your production. Yeah, well, there's plan B, so it's Probably a little bit too close. Oh, yeah. Too close. I'm always second to Brad Pitt. I'm always, I have this problem. Yeah, he was almost cast in Fight Club.

Yeah, I was just 10, so it was... Brad gets it again. Chubby and not of it. It made sense. In the research, it's like a prominent theme that comes up that you have this strict rule about people sitting on your bed. Can you tell this rule, and then I'll ask my question? Oh, God.

The world is fucking disgusting, people. It is filthy. New York is revolting. And I love New York. And I remember when I was on Jimmy Fallon, mean to brag, but I was on Jimmy. What was it like when I was on Jimmy Fallon? I'm curious about which way it was like because the times, I've been on Jimmy Fallon. It has felt one kind of way.

I went for the first. the first time in 2000 well now this is like real I'm trying to think when it was 2008 I'm bored I was trying to go to the next that joke went out too long so this is why I'm not a stand-down

this is why I'm not you gotta try it out no but I remember I was on foul and I was making jokes about how New York is dirty and like some people on Twitter got so mad they were like

how dare you talk about New York this way and I'm like because it's fucking disgusting what are we talking about not from New York. And they live in New York and they're like it's amazing, I'm like it's an amazing city

but it is dirty. It's so dirty. Lick your shoe right now. Sir. I made a dumb joke about being on Falun. Oh,

so my parents were very strict about like cleanliness. Like they like really kept a clean house and like whenever my brother and I came home they were like you smell like outside like change your clothes.

Smell like outside. Yeah. Change your clothes get together. So that lesson sort of stuck with me I remember when I was in college in my dorm room I got my room essentials bedding from Target I felt very fancy

and like I didn't want people like sitting on my bed so I'd be like you could sit like on the you can have like one ass cheek like on the corner but the other ass cheek has to like take a look at people respect it A people respected there was one person

who was so fucking wild and this was a guy that I liked and we had the same taste in movies honestly being a college age person is just such a waste of you're just so fucking you're such a fucking idiot but so you're like just really

potentially like you like bullshit but he came over and he sat on my pillow and I didn't say anything because I was like I like him so much but this movie's three hours and I was like truly trying to like have fun but my type A was like she like burned the pillowcase me yeah I mean

I did. I was like, this room essential has got to go. But that is a thing where I've had friends from college who will be like, oh, yeah, I remember like you're no outside clothes on the bed rule. And I'm like, is that the coolest thing you remember about me from college? Is that I don't want dirty Levi's on my bed? Okay, so you have said there's a small, very small group of people who would be allowed to stay on your bed with outside clothes like Stephen Colbert, Michael B. Jordan. Yeah. Pen Badgley. Yay or nay.

I'm going to say Penn, of course. We've been through so much today. You're on the list. Yeah. That's an exclusive list to be on. That's great. What about dogs? I am not an animal person.

I don't mind them, but I feel like it's such a responsibility. And also, like, do you have dogs? I do, but I'm with you on the response. Yeah, I feel like he's in your camp. It's so much. It's a lot. I actually love them enough to be like, you know, this is a lot of work and I think we'd both be happier if we just it's not you it's me that's the way that

everything loves me loved in that way that it's like I could do without me I think we'd both be better off you in the wild eventually dead me living my mom life without having to come home and to walk you and you're upset yeah I mean seriously every time they go inside we're both upset Everybody goes to that phase, and you have to think. Every time they go inside, we both lose. So that's twice the day I'm losing. Stick around. We'll be right back. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look.

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and he cannot get enough. So he's a lamb-peelaf guy. Keep mealtime exciting with Nom-Num, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. learn more at trinom.com slash podcrushed spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed let's talk about your illustrious career first career question I have for you

have you met Viola Davis yet I haven't we have not been in the same circles for some reason we've never met I have to say I thought maybe Can we get Beth in here? Can we bring Viola? Yeah

My publicist Beth Where's Viola? She's supposed to surprise me For this podcast That's though That was where she comes in This is We're a number one

Or number two podcast here But I've been Manish to meet a lot of like Wonderful people Along the way Like I got to moderate On Michelle Obama's book tour Which was like

So unreal. It was like the coolest thing. Wow. I did it five times. What was that like? It was, um,

well, first of all, it's so wild because it feels like her book was a fever dream because she was selling out arenas to talk about a book

which never happens. That never happens. So you're already like, this is a once in a lifetime thing that's not going to come along. And like everyone there was like so excited to like hear from her. and she's so smart and fun

and she always just has like stories like ready to go I feel like she tracks far better than her husband at this point Yeah Like far as maybe extreme thing to say She's not to love Yeah

So the first night I remember I got like this Really cute outfit And by the end of the night When I had to stand up And we were like doing like Our bow to the stage Like my shoes were full of sweat

Because I just was so nervous About like Like, you know, I interview people a lot, but I'm like, interviewing someone in front of 20,000 people, like, you don't want to fuck it up. Yeah, and it's her. Yeah, you don't meet, like, the person who sucks. I interviewed Michelle Obama, so I was really nervous the first time. But then after that, I was just sort of like, she's so easy to talk to you, just send the questions ahead of time. Like, this is sort of like the, you know, the theme for the night.

And, like, she was game and down, and it was so cool. What was the most unexpected thing about her for you? I think the most unexpected thing is just sort of. of like she is and I know it sounds lame but it's like she is kind of still down to earth which you're not always sure someone when they're that famous I have to say that was what I was thinking like she's a rare sort of icon however whoever it is that ever gets there however it happens it's rare yeah and I mean to have any kind of space in your life to be a human yeah how on earth how on earth yeah there's not a space she

goes into. Not a single space she goes into where she doesn't completely change the makeup of the room. That's exhausting. That's exhausting. It's exhausting. And I think, you know, like she never wanted to be famous. You know what I mean? Like even myself, like

deep down, like I was a writer, but I probably wanted to be a performer but was like too afraid to admit it to myself. You know what I mean? So there's always some sort of like, I want a little bit of attention on me, but like she never really wanted that. Like she didn't want him to go into politics initially. So I think it's a, I I think her fame is probably different because it's like, this is cool, this is nice,

I'm going to use it for good because I'm not, like, desperate to be the, like, I'm not a Kardashian. You know, I'm not, I'm not a Kardashian. I'm not, like, trying to constantly be, like, front of everyone's minds. So, yeah, she's, she's cool. That's amazing. That's amazing. You have that experience. Yeah.

Speaking of, like, setting boundaries and having to, like, have your life kind of exposed. As a comedian, I think you. You do have to, you know, you have to plumb your own life for stories and you have to be kind of vulnerable, maybe self-deprecating, depending on what type of comedy you're going for. What's that like for you? Is there anything that you try to keep sacred? Is there a space where you can go to kind of shut off? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been doing comedy for 15 years now. So I think there's, A, just like a level of confidence that I have just in myself as a person, not even as like a performer.

and then I think I definitely do want to keep more things to myself like I like being vulnerable and sharing stories and blah, blah, blah, but like with my last relationship we were like so much online and like it was really fun to like do like IG lives and all this stuff together

but then like you know I like broke up with him and I was like ha this is so embarrassing because you know you like riled and stuff you're like oh he's my soulmate and then you're like never say soulmate I know I fucked up Penn

I've fucked. Now you know. It's true. Yeah. It's true. But then, yeah. So going forward, I think, like, whoever I date that would be, like, on the low, low.

And I probably, like, well, post about them. No, that totally makes sense. Yeah. So Michael B. Jordan. It's totally fine a date me. I won't tell anyone. Can I read you something that you've said? Yes.

Oh, God. I know. This can be a dreaded moment, but there's a question here. Okay. Okay, so you said, I think we're taught to place too much emphasis on the outside no, rather than on ourselves. If someone says no to you, you don't have to say no to yourself. You can say yes to yourself. You can say, I'm going to go off and do my own thing because people always catch up.

It may take a while, but people always catch up. I think that's so great for, especially our younger listeners, to hear. When did you develop this mindset? And do you have an example of a no that became where someone actually caught up? Oh, my God. The amount of rejection. I'm sure you're in the same. Not in the same boat as me.

But, you know, like, people think they see you on, like, your shows and you get the podcast. I'm like, oh, Penn's just thriving. It's just yes, yes, yes. And you're like, no, there's some fucking nose in here, too. Oh, lots of nose. You know what I mean? We have a company together. It's like a lot of nose.

It's so much. We can't get violent with Davidson here. That's right. But there's so much that goes into it. And so I always tell people, there are. There are – here's one – I think what I say about myself is, like, there are some people who, like, for whatever – like, everything has just come together where people just get them and they can just get all the things that they – like, I'm never going to be a person where, like, people are desperate to work with me. But, you know, I can, like, create my own stuff. And, you know, when Jessica and I started Two Dope Queens, like, first of all, I was just still a struggling comic.

I think I was like, maybe – seven years into stand-up, maybe eight when we started the podcast. And we really just started because we're like, well, a lot of like, you know, women, people color, people from the queer community, like, aren't getting on these late-night shows. So we'll just, like, do our own thing.

And we never expected to take off the way that it did. Like, we were just truly doing it because it was fun. And then I was like, I think this could live on HBO. And so we were able to get it to that place. And it was so cool to create something that was. was proven because I've definitely had, I won't say the festival but there's a big

comedy festival that's important so you can kind of figure out what I'm talking about. That's the one name you're not going to say. Yeah. Let's call it the Bryan Festival. Yeah, the Bryan Festival. And I've been trying

for years to get on this showcase because it's supposed to, it's just supposed to like open up your career. And they told my manager at the time that they don't think, I have what it takes to make it in comedy. And I'm, when I heard that, I was like, you're so fucking dumb. Like, I was just like, you are so dumb.

Like, you don't know who's going to make it, who's not going to make it. And I always feel like whenever I get those rejections, it's always like Michael Jordan, the last dance where he's just like, okay, okay. And then just use that as fuel to, like, just prove people wrong. And so I think every step of the way, Like with my first book, only one publisher wanted it

because everyone else was like, this won't sell, it's a black author, it's not really relatable, like just all this shit. And this was, we sold it in 2015. 2015, people were like, this book won't sell because it's written by a black woman. And then... That was your first one. My first one.

And that's everything's trash? Oh, no, you can't touch my hair. Oh, that's right, okay. Yeah. And then it came out, was on the bestsellers list, New York Times Best Sellers list for two weeks. And then my lit agent, Robert, had some people who had rejected my proposal. They were like, why didn't you send us this book?

We would have loved to have published this book. And he goes, I did. And this is what you said. Yeah, wow. And so it's just such cool vindication where I'm just like, the gatekeepers don't really know what they're talking about. No, they don't because they're not the ones who were doing it. Can you cup the microphone and say that again? The gatekeepers don't really know what they're talking about.

But they don't. So they act like they're, you know, they could see it all because they got to justify their jobs. But I'm just always like, if you just sort of give yourself the permission and just keep creating, like some stuff is going to happen. You're going to break through. And like you just take the nose in stride and see what you can learn from them. And then just keep doing it. It's hard, but. Totally.

you know and do you have your own imprint now i do you want to talk about that yeah it's called tiny reparations books um we have five books no six books coming out this year wow seven in 20204 and then five already slated for 2025 that's amazing yeah and we published like um poetry collections essay collections we have a memoir from reggie watts that is coming out this year which is so cool and so cool and so sort of full circle for me because like when I started doing stand-up he lived in New York and I would like go to his shows

and be like one day I get to like meet him like I was just so like such a baby comic and novels and like it's really I just love it I get to like read books and then be like

I want to publish this it's so crazy I get to publish things so yeah I really love it that's amazing it's such a fun job yeah I don't sleep you guys

have you noticed I know you do so much a lot Yeah, it's a lot. But I love it. In a way, it's good. People are saying no to something. Yeah.

Can you imagine what would happen if you did meet Viola Davis? Something all the doors would open. I think it could be so fun. I would just win so many Oscars right away. Without acting and anything. Yes. Retro. Best red carpet reunion.

Yes. Nominees are. We manifest it for you. Where the mind goes. The energy flow. I love it. And it's so. it's on the index is the first line.

Energy glows. Oh, okay, yeah, that's cute. That's what I'm going to go get to. Oh, yeah, it's, yes, yes, I'm going to get you two, tattoo. You too? I love how much you love you too. Yeah, it's funny, too, to me, because, like, they're a band where, like, never had any interest in them until, like, three months ago.

Right before I started doing press for this past season of my show, I saw, I spent like three days on a little road trip and um decided to listen to the joshua tree at least those opening tracks are like they're so in a way like simple and and positive and yearning yes uh i just i love the band so i seen 19 times wow wow i'm committed i like that a real number yes i have it in my phone i write down have you met bono yeah oh oh honey have i met him honey I love this. Let me turn off my do not to start up real quick, just so you can see my home screen.

This is Bono and I. Oh, my gosh. That's your home screen. That's my amazing picture. That is an amazing picture. But we met. Could you hold that up to the, is that okay? Oh, wait, hold on.

It went dark. Just for those who are watching. Yeah, that's a great picture. Look where his hands are. Yes. I was like, okay, I'm going to jerk. off to this later okay guys who is saying that

who said that you just make sure you kept who said that was that me but no we met 2017 at Bonnaroo and I like shortly before that started doing some stuff with Redd one of his non-profit organizations and we just have become friends over the years

and yeah it's really nice but I just love their music so much it's just they're really good at capturing emotions and feelings and making you feel optimistic and introspective. With like a touch of sadness. Yeah, there's a hit to melancholy.

There's like an Irish cloud. Yeah. But it's still mostly beautiful. Yeah, yeah. So I've really, and I've been going to Bono's residency quite a bit. Residency. He's done a residency beacon theater.

It's just like kind of like a solo show. that's based by it's based on his memoir but it sort of like tracks his relationship with his father in this really beautiful way and like he does strip down versions of the songs and he's like acting and doing impressions of people like it's just like he could literally do everything and it's very infuriating I wish I had that but yeah they're just they just mean so much to me as a band if we were going to have a Bono song play you out what would it be Well, let's be clear, we can't afford it, so Desire Yeah, I love that song Nice Yeah, so where you guys gonna play me out to just like elevator music We can afford more than that

This is where I'm just gonna have to do Where the streets have no name It's the only one I can think of all right Yes Thank you so much, Phoebe. You don't know with or without it. I want to go. Something like that.

That was pretty good. Bono, I think. What about with or without you? I feel like that's the classic. With or without you? I think that was the same. Well, we got to say, the first two opening tracks, isn't it with or without you,

and where the streets have no name? And those are the two most distinct yet similar-sounding arena rock songs that exist. Right? They both do the exact same thing to you, but they're different. They're so good. And I still haven't found what I'm looking for

like that. Oh, that's the opening. You're right. That's what it is. Let's do that one. That's a perfect trio. Come on. I still haven't found

what I'm looking for. Did we try to harm us? I think we tried. She's looking at me. She's looking at me. You guys. You got to ask him if we can use that because otherwise.

Record contract. We're cutting glass. You got a couple of studies. She asked if he wants to come on her show as well. No, Phoebe, we do have one final question. Okay. And you have to give the right answer. Okay.

There's no right answer. If Bono said yes, what, no, that's not it. I would say yes to whatever he said yes. Yes, the answer is yes. No, the question is, if you could go back, all the way back to 12-year-old Phoebe, what would you say or do? Oh my God There's a part of me where I just went I don't want to change any of it

just because it led me to this But I think what I would tell young Phoebes Is It's all going to work out okay You just sort of have to stick with it And you have to You're going to find your path and it might feel like it's taking longer

than it is for other people, but that's just your path. And it's okay and like time is a construct. Like it truly doesn't matter. Like, you know what I mean? Like I started to stand up in certain circles late. It started like almost at 24. And, you know, a lot of people start when they're 18.

But it's just like, I wouldn't have had shit to say at 18. So it wouldn't have been the right time to start. So I always feel like everything happens at the right time for the right reason learn to trust it quit having like a death grip on everything you can't control the world

and have fun have some damn fun which I'm still trying to do that was the right answer there was a wrong one and you were dangerously close so close there were moments where you were teetering

you saved it at the end thank you so much thank you baby this has been so nice this was so I'm so glad I've got to put on this body suit from free people just to hate this is great you guys I mean you know obviously I've listened to the

podcast but just like the chemistry in person it's just so delightful because there's so many people now like everyone has a podcast now we actually got into it too late in the game not a good time to start a podcast we should say nobody else is so hard to build a damn podcast now you know two dope queens was the first podcast I ever listened to really and I was obsessed with it yeah

I think it was the only time I can I remember hearing an ad on Radio Lab, which is like my... Yeah, yeah. That's... Literal, like, radio lab. It's crazy. The first time I remember hearing an ad and being like, I'm going to check that out.

Oh, and then he didn't. But it sounds good. That sounds good. But I thought of it. No, but you guys are doing it is great. And a lot of people have podcasts. We shouldn't have podcasts. I won't say who.

Because I don't want to drag anyone. This just feels natural and it feels right. Oh, thank you. It's very important. Yeah. Yeah, if you haven't signed the table, feel free. Get you a Sharpie. I feel like you've been here before, no?

I can't recall. It feels like you should have been. Life is long. That's a shocker. You don't do much. I don't do anything. Penn, listen, I am just always sitting at home. But seriously, do I look cute?

You look great. You do. Okay, thank you. Oh, wait, no, I'm right here. Oh, really? I was like, there's no way B.B. Robinson hasn't been here. Stitcher.