Podcrushed - [Rerun] Ariana Grande (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

[Original air date: June 12, 2024] In Part 1 of this two-part conversation with the extraordinarily prolific Ariana Grande, the crew has a wide-ranging conversation on childhood, her Broadway origins, and getting to act alongside her best friends. Ariana shares thoughtful reflections on her time at Nickelodeon and why therapy should be mandatory for all child actors. For more on music, Eternal Sunshine, BTS on The Boy is Mine MV, and Wicked, check out Part 2. Follow Podcrushed on socials:TikTokInstagramXSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada My grandpa loved to sing too Every time we finished dinner He would sing Good night, I hate to leave you now But have a good time At the end of every single dinner So sweet

Oh my gosh That's really charming Welcome to podcrushed We're hosts, I'm Penn I'm Nava And I'm Sophie And I think we would have been your middle school besties Hatching plans to sneak into R-rated

Okay, who am I getting? PG-13-rated movies. Well, if you've clicked on this episode, then you might know what's coming. I suppose that's true for all of them. The one thing that's different. Amazing, starts. We're all the great to start.

Just you wait. There's more. We have today the one, the only, Ariana Grande. You might know her most famously from starring alongside me in a music video. I'm the boy as mine video. I played the cat.

Yeah, she played the cat. I don't know if you remember that part. She's got a new record out It's been out for a little bit now Even newer down the pipeline Is wicked So we're talking about her whole life But you know

We get into Saturn You're going to want to know about that Oh boy, do we New depths of Saturn New depths, yeah Please please stick around You're not going to want to miss this one Hey there. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard-earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91-year-old mom, Judy, to get her take on it all.

Wiser than me from Lemonade and Media premieres November 12th wherever you get your podcasts It's morning in New York Oh God Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin And I'm Catherine Grotie And we have a new podcast

It's called Don't Listen to us Many of you've asked for our advice Tell me What is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us. Our take-it-leave-it-ad-advice show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th, a Lemonada Media Original. All right. Well, in addition to introducing my socks, we have with us Ariana Grande. Thank you. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. We're just going to, to dive right in we typically start around 12 from what I understand you had now this may or may not be true we'll know if our research is it

I'm scared wait wait wait before we actually dive right in I do think we have to address how different this episode is from all of our other episodes I've seen them and I'm like where are you talking about in which way I walked in and I is it my socks that's it

it is we can see pen socks it's that yeah yeah I was like is this a new set up for season three And you know, like, it's a new setup for you. Yeah. That's crazy. That's so nice. Well, we're doing sort of one-offs this year.

You know, we just sort of like, we vibe to our guests. And you warrant a giant wooden studio built in probably the 1980s or 70s when this was necessary to record music. I'm deeply on. It's so cool. I was like, wow, rebranding. What's going on? Like, this is so fun. All wood.

Matthew Hessey is going to cry. When he hears you say like this for his episode, you had like that makeshift wardrobe. But he was like, Penn, are you trapped in? I can't. It definitely looks like a kill room. That little cottage of mine that I have not redecorated. It's a place that I typically am in for the remote interviews when we're on Zoom. How fun.

But this is extraordinary. This is a much bigger kill room. Wow, thank you. I'm glad you thought of me for this. Thank you so much. Wow. I can hear things differently. I mean, out of the headphones, just.

sounds, yeah. I've always loved recording studios. I absolutely love them. And I'm interested in your relationship to that, but we'll get into that. First, is this true or false? Did you have a screen name Jim Carrey Fan 42? Is this true? Is this true? Absolutely true. Well, he was 42 at the time. Okay. So that's where the number came from because Jim Carrey fan was taken. So I had to put a number and it was 42 because that was his age. And I believe that year I, I should stop, but I'll tell you, I had a birthday party for him. For him.

For him. Was he there? No, he couldn't make it. Wait, so bad. What's his birthday? Do you remember? I actually don't remember now, but the weirdest thing. The most, what?

Give me a chance. The most cosmic thing is it actually happened to be when I announced my album, Eternal Sunshine, which is obviously named after the movie, movie and I announced it on his birthday, coincidentally. Wow. And you still don't remember what that date is? No.

I don't remember still. Something with a seven in it. Something with a seven. Ariana, who came to the Jim Carrey birthday that you hosted? My friend Aaron Simon Gross. Okay. I love it. Who's still my best friend.

Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Did you guys do like Jim Carrey themed things? No, we just watched the movies and I think my mom had like Jim Carrey themed things. That's very good. spectacular yeah so we had like the mask my mom had like little like paper masks that's very cute yeah it was bizarre so your mom was very supportive yes she's always been very supportive of all of my yeah obsessions so what age was this though are you were you 12 or 10 or

I don't know I think I was well if he was 42 I must have been I have no idea I don't know I don't know but you had a screen name but yeah that was my screen so like that was so I was I was young and it was like one of my first screen names I remember I was a little bit about you because I feel like not many 10 or 12 year old girls would choose that as a screen name. Yes, I was always a little off. I was always

a little different. No, but you remember the days when like you would have a few screen names? Absolutely. Yeah, that was like the cool thing. In a way messages and like rainbow fonts like certain people could change the fonts. It was in that era. It was like that those days. Yeah. That was yeah, that's

where we're starting. Yeah, good. Well, do you think that that, I mean, You know, your relationship to comedy is, to me, a really interesting one. You know, I don't think you've ever left it personally. I feel like it's in your music, in just the right amounts. You know what I mean? Your appearances in SNL are pretty show-stopping and phenomenal. Thank you.

And then, of course, you know, you started not much later than 12, like doing these comedy shows. Was, I mean, what did you think of comedy then? Was it your favorite thing? Was it related to you as a performer? Yeah, I think, first of all, thank you. That's so nice. But I loved comedy first.

I mean, I loved singing first and foremost. But I remember that comedy always gave me a different feeling than singing did. Singing, I think, takes itself so seriously. And I love laughing so much. Like there's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable, we trust each other, we're here, like laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me so um yeah i don't know i it was always something i loved a lot and then i think when pop sort of took over for a while i lost a little bit

of like that light and i kind of like i missed it i think subconsciously in a very big way um so yeah i don't know looking forward to kind of i'm glad you said that you could hear it a tiny bit in the music because I don't like to take things too seriously in some of my more like playful pop songs. I think it's a nice, you know, place to put some comedy sometimes. But yeah, thank you. I don't know. I really, I really hear it. Especially, I don't know if you remember this the first time I DM'd you. About this. Well, yes, it was about this. But what, but what I, the way I shot my shot was um i i i said that uh that shut up is one of the best like pop openers of an album of the last probably 10 or 20 years i really love it and it's so funny but it's so well crafted thank you

and that to me again like that you could go on SNL as you do okay so fine so somebody can be funny but that you uh yeah to me i just i've always heard it in the music so i think it's really cool it's not easy my mind i couldn't believe that you had like heard my music or i've been watching you for i would have to me i would have You have to live under a rock, which I nearly do, but I've still heard your music. Well, thank you. But also to lead with that, like, I was like, whoa, this is too much for me. Thank you, though.

Penn, also the interesting thing about him is that he's incapable of lying. So if he's going to write to you with something that he likes that you've done, you know, it's true. It was really hard for me to start doing ads at first in the podcast. I was like, I had to figure out how to get behind this ad. I remember one time when I didn't have the time I took like an hour to record and I won't say for which one I won't say for which one

but it took me an hour like of time I did not have anyway Because it's like What's my intention behind me? Where am I coming from in this ad? It wasn't about acting It was like I'm saying something

about this product that like I need to believe in some way Otherwise like Can I say this? His out is usually, and that's why Sophie loves. He's like, so Navajo, what do you think about? That's so funny. We'll have to cut that after.

All right, and I just want to say one thing. It'll take us out of the time period, but there's an SNL skit you did where I think it was like, title was having power outage or something, and you had to do all the different singers. Yeah. It's one of my favorites, it's one of my favorite skits, and I watch it, like, honestly, like, 10 times a year, and I show it to anyone that I'm trying to impress. Like, I know we're going to laugh together, you know, so it's like a cute guy.

I'm like, have you seen this kid? Oh, my God. Yeah, and anyone that I want to think that I have good taste in, like, humor. I just, and it always hits. People always love it. And a lot of people don't know you're that funny, so it's like unexpected. But I just love it. It's so good.

Thank you. I was so bummed because some people thought that I was lip syncing in some of the, in some of them. Really? Because you're that good. That was, no, that was, I'm upset, but thank you. I was like, well, I'm offended and thanks. No, I'm kidding. But, yeah, thank you.

That's fun. It was, I love, I love doing. SNL, I, yeah, it's so thrilling. It's so much fun. And there are so many things that get cut to that are so ticklish and it's just fun to be in that building. It's so fast and everyone's so creative and funny and brilliant. It's just, it's fun. Your recent with Bowen Yang when you guys did the Mulan Rouge bit was crazy hysterical. The most fun I've ever had in my life. I almost didn't make it through any of it. I love Bowen Yang so much. He's so brilliant. He's so beautiful and wicked. I can't wait for people to see.

Oh, he's a wicked too. We have a whole section out of. Okay. Okay. We got to jump back. Focus. We're in this room. My other screen name is Bowen Yang fan. At 30. I don't know. So let's go back to you growing up. Like, was your household, I mean, because you're just, I mean, even more now, it just feels to me like it's so clear you're a performer through and through.

Was it a performing household? I mean, where does it, where does it come from? What were your parents like? Yes. So my parents are. kind of polar opposite but if you know me it kind of makes sense knowing them and then how I came about because my mom is like business she's also very creative and talented but she does I mean she's the CEO of a company that designs and manufactures like telecommunication equipment like PAs for like ferries and like yeah so it's very different and my dad is sort of the more creative one he does architectural design and

photography and graphic design and he paints and, you know, so I'm kind of smack in the middle of the two of them. But my brother was in a lot of theater and in a lot of school shows growing up. He was on Broadway. And so it was a very theatrical household, even though the only two who have pursued it are Frankie and me. But my mom was always singing and doing karaoke nights. And my dad was always singing as well. And my grandpa love to sing too every time we finished dinner he would sing good night i hate to leave you now but have a good time at the end of every single dinner so sweet oh my gosh yeah that's really charming yeah he was the best yeah did any of them have anything like a voice like yours i i mean i think so but i love them i don't know my grandpa had

big belt like he had sing along to frank sinatra with all his heart and um my mom has a beautiful voice. My dad loves to sing and has a beautiful voice. He's a beautiful heart. And he's a beautiful painter. My Aunt Mayer is in a band as well. My Aunt Mayor is a musician. My Uncle Craig, they have a band. That's on my dad's side. And my cousin Hallie's a singer. So lots of art, but my parents were not pursuing it. Was that an answer? Was that anything? I don't even remember my question. I asked her question. Sorry, I'm long-winded. Well, that made me curious because you said Frankie was into performing, he was on Broadway,

and I feel like if you have an older sibling who is really good at something or pursuing something, sometimes that makes a younger sibling shy away from it. Oh my gosh, my, my idol, yeah. I like looked up to him so much and I still do. He's amazing. But he went to Milenberg and I loved seeing him in his shows there. And even before then, he went to Pinecrest and I would see him in those shows too. And yeah, I was always his biggest fan

And I was like, I want to do that. That's so sweet. You've talked a lot about your Nona. Your Nona is on your new album. And I'm curious, what was your relationship with her, like, when you were little? Like, how much of an influence did she have in your life? Oh, my gosh. I mean, my grandparents, my whole family has always been so supportive, but in the healthiest way, not pushy.

Like, my mom wasn't a stage mom. She was the first person to, like, get me where I wanted to go. Like, if I was like, I would love to go to this audition, she would, take me there and make sure I was prepared and support me, but she never told me that it was what I should be doing because she thought I was talented or because, you know, she was like, are you sure? My family was very supportive but very protective as well.

But my grandparents, my Nona actually saw the ad in the newspaper to sing the national anthem at the Panthers game, and she took me for my audition. So, Nona was very supportive too. Were you eight or nine then? I think I was eight, yeah. Wow. So that was your first, was that your first audition and first performance?

I think, I think that was my first public performance, yeah. I was eight, I don't know what I would have done before. Other than like playing the bumblebee in my school play, which I did. And I made a little, I worked a nice little bit in there. I improved it, I didn't tell anyone I was going to do it. Got a big laugh. I was very proud. That's brave, Eddie.

Yeah, I think I was just supposed to fly by and exit. and I, before I did, I ripped the little stinger off of my costume and I stung the lead character and I flew off unprompted. But I'm talking really young. That's improv and also like ruined a costume. That's bold and I'm sorry. This is my public apology to the costume department. Yeah, they've been waiting.

The preschool. Sorry. You should know that I once sang the national anthem also at like a local, it was a AAA baseball game in Washington State. Why haven't I seen this? Well, it's not on record. He paid someone to bury the footage. You know, this is not a lie.

I forgot the words in the middle. Oh, my goodness. It's a tricky one. Yeah, doesn't it feel like it can kind of like go into the voice? It can't. It can fake you out. Wait, so what did you do, Penn? Did you hum?

No, so I really just, in the middle, I just forgot that word. Which word? I don't remember at this point. It doesn't. No, it doesn't at all. He just doesn't even remember the word. There's an English word that never... You know, I'm facing, like, out into the sky and the mountains

and the whole crowd is behind me. How old were you? I was a bit older, so I was 13. Oh, no, that's a big funny. It's quite embarrassing. And I just paused. It didn't freak me out, actually. And then I just went, um...

And then I hear the whole crowd. chanting the word, but because it's a crowd, it's very hard to make out. It's not helpful. And so then I actually said, what? That's best case scenario. And then I finally heard it and I go, oh, thanks. And then I just finished.

That's fabulous. I need to see. Both teams were so supportive. They were just like, yeah, you know, slap me on the back because they assumed that I was mortified, but I have to be honest, like, I wasn't really. I wasn't really because, I don't know, it just. I would have thought.

thrown up for sure. I'm sure everybody would have. You definitely would have. The one person who was not supportive was the person who hired me for it. She was like, well, I guess it could have been more prepared. You're a kid. Yeah, I mean, she hires up to the word. That is deeply traumatic.

You can't say that to a 13 year old. Yeah. That's like, can a viewer please find this footage and DM it to us? There's going to be an uptick in Google searches. There would be. There's definitely no footage before phones. He's trying to throw us up the phones. Before all, this is before telecommunications.

So hold on. So I'm curious, if you can recall, this is the genesis of you as a performer here. We're building a story. Do you recall either afterward feeling that I want more of this? Were you just like, you know, I'm wondering if you have any,

core memories there? I think I didn't have much of a relationship to the song at the time. I think I was eight and I was like, these are the words, just sing them. Just perform it, you know, like you got off a stage or the ice or whatever. I loved it. I felt so happy and proud. And the funniest thing about that video to me is how I like, A, I feel like I look exactly the same as I do in that video.

Like, that's exactly still everything. I didn't even know there's a video. There's a video. It's really funny because when I'm done, the way I whip me. my head and walk away. It's too crazy. It's a little too much. I liked it a little too much back then.

It was really funny. I loved it. I had so much fun. I wanted to do it again. Did you get hit by a puck? I did. I got hit by two pucks. But I'm a big,

I'm a big Panthers fan still. Nothing can take me away. Where did the puck hit you? Once was the palm of my hand. Because you were like this? Yeah, because my dad went to cover me and they went to, and I didn't know what was happening. So I went like this and it got me here.

And I don't remember what the other... I think it was the same thing twice. Obviously, the other time. That's where my memory went. That's wild. That can be so dangerous. No, yeah. But they really, oh my gosh, they put me on...

They got me tons of ice and they put me on the Zamboni. And I was like, I'm not hurt anymore. You're like, again, I love it. I was like crying. I was crying and smiling at the same time. You were already learning how to smile through the pain of the performance. And boy was, did I need to learn quickly? Yeah.

I'm kidding, joking. That's dark. But no. I was like, and then, yeah. Yeah. Dark, that was dark. No, I don't think it was dark at all. It reminds me something you said on the video, which we'll talk about later.

Oh, my God. Our video shoots? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, wait, what did I say? Well, you did, you said that you, you know, you had like, I think you hurt your foot somehow. Oh, yes. And we were just talking briefly about how, you know, you're constantly getting these, not you. A performer is constantly just sort of getting hurt.

And like... And you just got to go through it. And like it's just not a priority. Yeah. You're just, even like mid-take. Yeah. I'm like, I cannot acknowledge this right now. And when we're done, I'll be like,

hi, may I have a band-aid? My pinkies on the ground. Like, certain things just aren't as important when you're in a take or something. No, exactly. I fractured a rib in the middle of a take place. And I was just like, you know, finished until the end. And then afterward, I was like, I can't move.

Yeah. That's wild. And the sickest part of it. me, it was like, oh, God, I bet that was perfect on camera. I'm like, I bet that was great for the scene. Fucked. So at eight years old, you're singing the national anthem, you're like, I love

this. Yeah, I loved it. And what's sort of the next step? I know eventually you make it to Broadway, but what kind of happens in between this? I mean, this is the thing, with you, it was like so fast. It was fast, but I'm thankful that it wasn't too fast because I was still home with my family for like those years

that I'm, you know, I was a teenager when I was on Broadway. I was already 13. So, And between then, I did a lot of, like, local family theater and community theater. And I was always on stage. I loved acting and I loved singing and being a part of any show that I could find. But, yeah, then I went to audition with my best friend Aaron Simon Gross, who was at the Jim Carrey birthday for 13, the musical. And we got it together. Like, he was, we both got it.

It was been so fun. Yeah, so I got to do my first few jobs because then I met Liz Gillies, who's one of my best friends in the entire world. And then after 13, auditioned for Victorious, and she and I got that together. So I've always had support and friendship around me. But yeah, I didn't start too young. I feel like 13 is, even though, you know, working at a young age is like, we can talk for 75 hours. There's much to say, and we'll get there, I'm sure. But, you know, it was nice to have a friend,

and it was nice to have not been seven or eight. What about, but you were young. Yeah, I mean, I was about the same. So, let's see, I first started doing community theater, like, eight and nine. And then I was, got my first, like, What was your first role? Willing Grace, actually. I had, like, five lines on Willing Grace.

In community theater? Oh, sorry. No, I thought you made all that. I thought you made. I met in your, ever. Um, well, outside of school was Winthrop and Music Man. Cool.

A little. Enough. You love musical theater. I love musical theater. I don't. I'm not very well. He's going to test you. It could be the reason that I don't love musical theater because, you know, I loved the experience, but I did not. Maybe it wasn't the right show for you.

It wasn't. And then also my audition song was I Can Show You the World from Aladdin. Fabulous. Or a whole new world is what it's. called. Yeah. But it starts with, I can show you the world. And, oh, my goodness.

Just, I think of that audition process and cringe. However, I discovered that if it's done at its best when I saw Rent, I loved Rent. Rent is, you know, I was like a 20-year-old. Yeah. Like, I could say, okay, when it's done well, I do like a musical. I have a core memory around Rent. My whole family was obsessed with musicals. We would sing Wicked all the time.

Rent. Were you Glinda or an alphabet? May I ask? Oh, Glinda. Oh, my God. Fun. You don't have to say that. Popular is the best song. Oh, my gosh. But, no, but we would sing Rent all the time. And I had no idea what the songs were about. I was like eight or nine. And my whole family went to go see it on Broadway, but you weren't allowed to bring a like 10-year-old. So I had to go see the New York City Ballet, which I fell asleep in with my aunt while

they were all at rent. It was horrible. Oh, rent. Yes. Wow. That's devastating. nothing's crazier than loving rent at a young age and being young and loving the songs and then growing up and being like whoa that's what we're like one song glory yeah you know honestly

all I knew about Rent was the South Park episode it's like eight eight eight eight eight eight and I didn't realize how much of a specific kind of lampoon that was because I turned to my friend at the time who I was seeing it with after like four or five minutes and I was like are they ever going to stop singing?

And she looked at me like I was crazy and she was like no, no, for the next 15 minutes I was like what have I done? What have I done? What have I done? But then you know, it won't make a way. I don't want to delay us but I have a crazy rent tie in story. I was in a group called Kids Who Care when I was really young with Aaron and all my friends and we would sing. for like different charity events

or sometimes we would even go to old age homes and perform for the elderly. And one of the songs on our set list, because we loved to sing it and sometimes like when we would do shows we would do, we would do what you own, which says, you're dying in a marriage.

And the one time we didn't think, we didn't think and we had a bunch of gigs in a row. We didn't think about it. And we were just at this old age home And we were like You got to the final forest And we were like You're dying in America

At the end of the millennium And we were like But you know what? Did they appreciate it? They couldn't hear us. It was great. It was great. They couldn't hear anything.

They were like, oh, they're so cute And no one heard anything And it was fabulous. See, in my brain they were like finally some hard hitting something where they can You really give it to us. Finally, someone honest around here.

No, no, no. At the end of the millennium. You got five years. But like, we didn't think about it at all. And that final chorus approach. So good. And we'll be right back. If you have got travel coming up visiting family,

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big issues to small, we'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through. The Since You Asked podcast from Lemonada Media premieres on September 23rd, wherever you get your podcasts. When you were on Broadway, you were in middle school, which is like right in the pocket of our show. So you weren't going to traditional school. no I was tutored we all had like a tutoring classroom and yeah that's like just when you were on set or what would you say when you were at the theater but then were you going to school and like

yeah I went to yeah I mean I because I wasn't sure if the show was going to take me out of North Broward Preparatory School and Coconut Creek forever coconut Creek yeah yeah it's so Floridian um so wait a prep school is that very is that very um academic Was it a very academic path you were on? No, I was there. I mean, I was there. I think I kind of knew what I wanted to do. And I was a good student.

I think I was a good student. But, yeah, I was there. And then I left to do the show. And we had tutors. So some of the kids were still in school like I was. And we would just be doing our classes remotely. And then I, did victorious, and I had to, like, finish the way that kid actors finished.

I don't even remember what it's called. Yeah, is it the proficiency? Yeah, what is the test? The GED? Yeah, no, no, no. Well, there is that, but... Yeah, that, but no, there's like... I mean, in California...

So that you can work more hours, there's something. It's every state has a different one. Yeah. Every state, so in California, it's called the Chesapee, California high school. Yes, yes, yes, the Chespe. That's what I meant. And then I was able to work, like, I was 30 at 15. Yeah, no, yeah, I did the same thing.

Literally. That's, yeah. So what was your experience around crushes at the time? Like your first loves, first heartbreaks? Oh, God. I mean, my mom was really strict. So I didn't, I didn't. Which means your crushes were even bigger and deeper.

How do you think I ended up where I am? No, as I, yeah, I think my mom was very protective. And protective is a better word, but somewhat strict, very protective. And I couldn't, I didn't have a lot of crushes that I was like. like allowed to explore when I was super young, but I had them and they were there, but I didn't like, I had like my first kiss secretly in the hallway one time. And I was like, at a real school? Yeah. At your real school? At North Broward in Coconut Creek. I was like quick and I was like, oh, this is bad. I'm going to get in trouble and I need to leave and I ran away and I don't think I

ever talked to him again. But yeah. He's still crying. He's still mourning that. It was after school and before going to the school store because there was a school store and that's like what people did and I wanted to be cool and I wanted to go to the school store. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, it was always a very like, I couldn't, I don't want to like run home and be like, I had my first kiss. I was very nervous and scared. Yeah. We'll cut this because I've told this story before but I think you'll find it cute. My first kiss was in a like spin the bottle game

sort of something like that. And my parents were very strict. And then it was like at a kid's birthday party, whatever. And I went to every kid at the party crying like, please don't tell my mom. They were all like, why would we? Why would we tell me? I was like, please don't tell my mom. And then you have to leave this in because I feel seen and understood.

And then as soon as I got home, just like opened the door. My mom was like, hi, Nava. And I started crying. And I was like, I kiss that in. Oh, my God. Okay. Just like no reaction. This is actually like, this was my first kiss as like a person that.

I can remember being. Because when I was in preschool, I kissed a lot of boys. Oh, really? Yeah. I think something like, there's something extreme that happens to me. Like, you know,

like when I was young, I kissed a lot of boys and I was very, like, fearless. And then I was like very nervous and I was, I kissed one boy and then never again until I was like 18. Yeah. Wow.

Or no, no, no, no, no, no. Like 16. That's not true at all. It's okay. Don't worry. Guys, I don't think I've ever thought about my life. I don't know what happened to me in my life at all who I am.

It's because you are. performing. I've been through it too. It's the same for all of us. Wait, why don't it's because of the puck. It's because I'm professional. I don't remember anything. Guys, wait, I was like 14. Yeah, fair. No, you know what it is? Every year at that age is

so long. I don't remember the chess pee. I don't remember graduating. I don't remember anything. It's only, it's only I mean, honestly, I feel like at that age every year is just phenomenally long. It's its own timeline. The difference

between 13 and 14 to a 13 and 14 year old is massive. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I've been thinking about this recently. Like, you need external markers of time. Like, whether it's, you know, middle school, you know, was sixth grade to eighth grade. And so it happened at some point during those years. Or like, if somebody moved house, then that's marker of time.

Yeah, I have no, nothing. Yeah, because you're, so I actually have this too. In between the puck. Sorry. And today. Sorry, go on. What? But I honestly, like, after leaving.

school formerly at like 12 years old I you know a lot of it blends together for me as well so I feel you yeah strange well we're finding it today I'm curious how you you like whether you thought of yourself as an artist then or not what how like how are you seeing the world what were you what do you think your greatest aspiration was at that time to sing I just wanted to sing I really loved it and what about like was acting connected, you know, because you were in musical theater then. Did you always want to just sing or at that time were they really wed together? Well, they were wed together because I wanted to be on Broadway. That was my first and only goal. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. I want to be

in musicals. And I also love making music. That was the other thing that I loved doing. I would love to like go home and play on garage band. And like I had like a looping machine that I would play with because Image and Heap is my idol. And my forever. all-time number one inspiration and I saw her use one on stage so for Christmas my mom surprised me with one and I don't think it was like the same thing it was I think actually mine's used for guitars or something at the time but I don't know but I would like play and um loop my own vocals and just kind of like get I would I loved it so much so I knew I wanted to pursue the arts in all any forms. I loved writing songs. I think I wrote my first song when I was like 12 and I, yeah, I loved

it. I just loved it. I just wanted to create. Do you remember what that song was about? Let it rain. Aw, that's a great girl for that. Thank you so much. I thought I was like Mary J. Blige or something. I thought I was like Natasha Beddingfield. I like, it was very of that era. Yeah. Yeah. Let what rain? It. All of it. It, baby. Just, I'm open to All of it. And like, why are you writing that at, like, 12? What are you talking about? I mean, I wrote a song at 14, I think, called Stay With Me, which is like, stay with me tonight.

Like, come on, we're all just regurgitating what we're here. That's beautiful. Do you have it? It's actually, we can send you a clip of Evan Rachel Wood singing it because she knew it. So, yeah, we were friends at that point. And, you know, it's funny you're talking about a looping machine. I really wanted one. I had a four track, but I love to stack harmonies.

I just love, love harmonies. It's, you know, again, I can teach you a little bit about it. Fine, you should say, I would like stay with me tonight. Isn't that it? Can you give us a few? Give us one. No, I'm not. No, see, that was not the lyrics.

See, Evan, no, I would never, I would never, I would, I would never, I would, uh, everyone is just these too. Um, I don't remember what it was, but it was not, we could go out walking to talking. It was too rhymy and I would not, like, I remember that there was a clarification. It has something repeating. Anyway. This is such an abrupt pivot, but we have a question we ask every guest,

which is to tell us an embarrassing story from that sort of early adolescent period if anything comes to mind. Oh, God. I don't know. And this sounds like so stupid, but I feel like I am not, like, easily embarrassed. I just feel like I'm like, oh, I'll make like a terrible joke

and carry on and I don't know. but I don't know something embarrassing about that I had really bad OCD really is that that's just sad that's not that's not embarrassed that's just bad what do you mean like like like obsessive like counting or like certain ritual like certain had to be in the shower for a certain amount of times singing through Define Gravity three times in the shower I was that's how I knew I had a long enough shower hmm what's the song Define Gravity I'm not kidding when I was from Wicked literally though when I was like

Wow Can we remove Penn We're gonna open the door I can go have some more jerk chicken If The song It's a show called Wicked I've never heard of it

Sorry No Things like that I feel like that's embarrassing Is being That's embarrassing No I was just thinking When you said

I don't get embarrassed And then Penn was talking about that You know singing the anthem and forgetting the words and not feeling embarrassed. I feel like that's something. You think there's something wrong with us, which makes us. I feel like that's probably part of the genesis of becoming a performer. Like you have to kind of have the kids who don't have that.

I definitely get embarrassed quickly and easily are not going to go on stage. They're not going to like develop the practice. Okay, I agree with you on one hand because it's like doing it in front of people. Okay, fine. But I was very, very easily embarrassed by very, very little things. and I want to recall that you kissed a boy. Internally, it's internally embarrassed. Well, that's what I'm saying.

So, yeah, so what we do, I think, in this show, every now and then, I guess we'll have like some kind of really prototypical, like, it was a very embarrassing moment, and they all laughed at me, and it's very funny and all of that. But I think, you know, the essence of the question is, I don't know, it's like that, that soft center that everybody has, that everybody has, that can become. sort of like horrified at being seen um maybe it's just being seen or i don't know being seen in a way that doesn't feel like it's fair right you know well i think embarrassed and like saddened by opinion are two different things i think that's fair yeah because i think it's like that's of course a massive piece but it's like when i was young i just didn't i like could easily laugh at myself if that makes sense that's nice but but all of it inside is all

you know that's why you become I think outward do anything for the laugh and I guess sort of brave in that way because inside you're like hey what I suppose

shy how many times would you sing to find gravity in the shower? In the shower by myself I would have to hear it three times to know that I had been in there long enough but it was like that kind of OCD it was like numbers and like certain routine things

cleanliness and stuff cleanliness definitely um my i would use so much a total germaphobe monopathophobe like my hands would be cracking with wow because i'd use so much hand sanitizer and i'd be such a germaphobe did did this how how did covid impact you then i was okay i just was mindful of precautions that normal but i'm so much older now but when i was little it was like the scariest thing in the wild to me when did it subside then It's interesting that it was younger and then not older. Weird because I talk to my therapist about this a lot. It goes away when I'm creating and when I'm busy with work.

Like when I have a job, it went away when I started working a lot. And when I started doing like finding community and theater and finding people and finding casts and distractions and kind of a place to like put my feelings and like use my feelings. And then when I'm kind of like in an off season or like in between projects, I'm like, Is that thing scary again? I'm like, oh, am I like, does that, is that thing coming back? I don't know. But I think like when art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else. Every thing really subsides when, yeah.

But, yeah. But that was when I was young and I was much, I think, I think I was so brave then. And now I'm like so soft and so like, I'm like a little, but it's, we're finding. finding the balance now. It took a big circle, big... Yeah. It sounds to me like something of your new record is a return to... Tiny.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. It definitely feels like a certain coming home to myself has taken place over the last like two and a half years or something. But people say that's what happens when you turn 30. I think it's just something we all kind of get. Late 20s, 30.

Yeah, late 20s 30. It's like you get there. You come home a little bit. You talk about the return of Saturn. I mean, you have this Saturn interlude. And I, in preparing for this, I decided to like, I'm like, I wanted to learn a little bit about Saturn. Here's a really interesting thing that will possibly lead you into a valuable reflection or not. We shall see.

We shall see. So the way Saturn got its rings, it was a. It was a giant moon, a frozen moon. And it passed, Saturn has this thing called the Roche Point, which is where... But, but, so here's the thing. So it's gravity is so intense. I'm going to pull you through. Just wait, just wait, just you wait.

But the roche point is different for every object that hits it, right? So the roche point is, listen to this. Is this what all your interviews are like... If you want to know about Saturn. No, no, no, I love it. If you want to know about Saturn, let's hear. At this point, at the roche point, the front of the object,

the gravity is so intense that pulls it apart from the back. So, so Saturn, have, you guys don't see how this is relevant? No, no, I forgot the first part. So the rings, starting it. This is how the ring's rings. Oh, okay, okay, okay.

But the point is, finish it, tell us. The point is, so the roche point and the back. So any object that interacts with Saturn, okay, has its own roche point, where its gravity is so much lesser than Saturn's that the front of it starts to rip apart from the back of it. Wow. So if you were to hit the roche point,

the front of you would rip off. Wow. It's all about Saturn. Yeah. Okay, right? So it's a collection of others of what's once been. So, well, it's this one, actually, it's not many other things. It's just one moon.

And this moon, so there's like an analogy from we're Baha'is, and so there's this body of writings called the Baha'i writings. We can talk about that later off tape if you want. Or on tape. Or on tape. Lemonada would love it. Yeah, right.

You can compare a moon to a system of belief. So, what happened to Saturn's moon was that it was ripped apart by its own gravity. Isn't that poetic? And I was thinking

that if there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns is that a belief system of your own is being torn apart but then it's being reorganized rather than a single point it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and

form. That's stunning. Yeah. That's beautiful. You landed it. I did land it. Well done. That was absolutely gorgeous. And so I can't... Having gone through late 20s and 30 myself, I just feel like you You've turned this period into a piece of art.

Actually, I hadn't even done it. You've made the rings. You took the thing. You know, you've decorated yourself with this beautiful new gem, which is eternal sunshine, right? That's what I'm saying. That's what you should say. That's so beautiful.

Can we actually just roll it back and you say all of that? That's such a beautiful, that's such a beautiful, yeah. Because it really does feel to me like, you know, spending a lot of time with your catalog these last days, seeing some videos and stuff and the way you've spoken about it. You know, it makes me think there's one moment, I think, in a Vogue interview where you spoke about beauty as a tool. I think we all do it.

I know we all do it, especially if we're in the public eye, using beauty to hide. Yeah, that was so beautiful. Yeah, really, really poignant. I think it's just an interesting shift that happens naturally for people, hopefully sooner rather than later, where it's like, Oh, maybe it doesn't need to be so, you know, I suppose for me, it just, I felt like I just wanted to kind of come home in that way. I don't know.

I felt like everything about my, literally talking about style and aesthetic was just heavy and like a lot. And, you know, a lot of my fans still love that style. And I think it's beautiful, too, from, like, afar. But I think it's just, like, I didn't realize at the time that it was like more was more because I wanted to be me less and less, like, to give myself to people less and less. So it was just kind of like a weird way of, like, building a character more and more and more. Yeah. So that, I don't know, you know.

And then it was finally like, oh, there's a little voice in there. We're going to, you know, and then it just kind of found its way, come back around. but I don't know it's it's funny how that can even show itself and something as little as like your makeup or your style or your clothes or your your every I don't know it's interesting it's weird that's totally true it's so strange that that has to be out there forever all of it you know what I mean that is that is that is the weirdest part about doing choosing this with our lives is that like normal people every person with a job that isn't this changes and evolve and it's true and learns and has the ability to do that, and be like, oh, shit, I'm going to change that. You don't even have to think about it every, I mean, you do, but you know, you don't have to look at it and be reminded of it. It's a, whoa, like, shock, blind, it's just, it's an interesting,

it's an interesting thing that I, like, kind of do a lot of work on processing so that it doesn't scare me away from continuing. No, I think that's really, it's, it's difficult. I mean, you know, it's difficult. I think it's funny to me that, a comment section of anything is literally the manifestation of your own personal fears

in other people. It's like, wow, that thing that I thought that maybe was just an insecurity that had no place? That person's saying exactly that. Yeah, yeah. So actually, I was right about all the things that make me small and stupid and dumb and worthless.

And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's strange because it's like, sometimes you think it might be okay and then if you look, you will find it. That's a sick part of your, you know? It's like, it's just strange. strange. It's just, yeah. Arionne, I heard you say in, in a different conversation that sometimes, like, you try to change something that actually people have, have criticized

that you feel is valid and you change it. And then they just criticize you for that. Yes, it's strange. And I was like, really thinking about that, like, yeah, that's true. You're in such a catch rate too. Like, no matter what you do, people are angry at you. Why don't you do it sooner? You're not, it's not authentic that you're doing it now. It's in response. It's like, what do you, people want you to say trapped in like one very specific version of yourself and that's like a prison you know it is very interesting i think when that started to happen i kind of started to work with my therapist very closely on making peace with the fact that like okay maybe i'm too maybe i'm i'm searching too hard for this like or for for people to to

get me like the ariana that is me and i and i think i just kind of need to realize that this is something that comes with making art for a living and with being in the public eye and this is something that I have to make peace with and become healthy about so that I can continue to make art and to tell stories and to be an artist because I love it more than anything in the world. I love singing. I love writing. I love acting. I want to do it. I love my fans. It's like it's such a tricky thing mentally to process, especially when I started in this way at this level. I was like, you know, 19 or 20 when my music career started to become what it is.

And it just was so far ahead of my development as a person. And I think I struggled for a long time when I was young, making peace with what this beautiful. thing music had done to my life yeah and i think it's still something i work really hard on being healthy having a healthy relationship to is this of course yeah and i'm thankful because i feel like before eternal sunshine i was not happy to be doing it i was not happy about it and i'm very happy about it i love it i've loved every step of this album cycle so far and of Wicked and of the lead-up to Wicked and the audition process.

It's like feeding, I'm sorry, this is so long-winded. No, no, we love it. No, we love it. It's so much, I'm sorry. But, you know, it was just like a very informative and nutritious process. And I think it brought me home to everything I love and helped me reprioritize, you know, that my relationship to those voices, to art, to everything. And it's funny.

Stick around. We'll be right back. Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now in the world of public health? Every day brings another confusing headline or yet again a far-fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate. And parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate-author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast. That Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Lemonada Media and the Clinton

Foundation, that can't be true is out October 2nd. You said something earlier that I really didn't know, and I want to, maybe I misheard, I'm not sure, but did you say that you created victorious or that you were in conversation with the creator? of that before? No, auditioned for. Okay. Victoria's with Liz Gillies. Yeah. Yeah. So we were on 30, no, did I say green? No, no, no, no. I was just trying to understand. He was thinking about the Roche point. The Roche point.

I was already on Saturn's rings. Yeah, he's just like, right. No, no. No, but I guess because I, so I had auditioned with Liz, who was in 13 with me. Okay, that's what it was. That's what it was. That's what it was. We like flew to L.A. together, all green and nervous and wondering what the chances were and we both got cast so i was lucky to have

my first two jobs be with my two best friends like my first almost there and my second one was with liz and yeah that was very lucky so you were talking before about the kind of community that that being on a in a stage production or a tv show provides i mean that was for me you know i think the thing that actually drew me to it more than anything for you it sounds like there was a really, really clear, strong, like, you know, I want to sing. Music is the future for you. Music is the path. But I guess I'm curious, what was that like?

Because, again, this is, how old were you, 14? I was 14. And, yeah, I flew out to audition with Liz Gillies for victorious. And we were all very excited. And we got cast and we were, it was the best news we could hear. year. I mean, we were young performers who just wanted to do this with our lives more than anything. And yeah, and we got to. And that was like so beautiful. I think we had some very special memories and we feel so privileged to have been able to create those roles and be a part

of something that was so special for a lot of young kids. I think we're reprocessing our relationship to it a little bit now, if that makes sense. Yeah. What are your thoughts on chat? child acting. Like, we've had different child doctors on the show who feel differently. Some are like, I would never let my kids. I don't think anyone should. And others who are open to it as long as there's like certain conditions on set. Obviously, my relationship to it has and is currently and has been changing and I'm reprocessing a lot of what the experience was like. You know, my, that the environment needs to be made safer if kids are going to be acting.

And I think there should be therapists. I think there should be parents allowed to be wherever they want to be. And I think not only on kids' sets, I think if anyone wants to do this or music or anything at the level of exposure that it means to be on, TV or to do music with a major label or whatever, there should be in the contract, something about therapy is mandatory twice a week or thrice a week or something like that. And I was actually talking to Max Martin about this the other day because he was always such

an amazing person to talk to about the stressful parts of what I was experiencing. And he was just amazing. But a lot of people don't have the support that they need to get through being, performing at that level at such a young age, but also dealing with some of the things that the survivors who have come forward. And there's not a word for how devastating that is to hear about. And so I think the environment just needs to be made a lot safer all around. And like I said, I'm still in real time reprocessing my relationship to it. But yeah, the beautiful thing about it was that Liz and I got to fall in love with these characters that we created

and learn what it feels like to be so in a character that you can't, you know, separate yourself from it. and there were things like that, but yeah, the rest of it is still being worked on. Definitely. I mean, I think it's not just in Hollywood, and it's not just on certain sets. It's undoubtedly true that anybody who's going to be a really professional, competent, experienced, technically,

like veteran performer by the time you're in your 20s. You have to have been doing it for a long time. And I don't think there's anybody who's gotten there who hasn't experienced all these degrees of what you should and could call exploitation.

But as you're going through it, it's not just that one thing. There's a million layers to it. And you can find, And as a person who then depends to some degree, not depends is not the right word. Because I'm saying this for myself as well. Like the greatest burden and the greatest gift of my life

is being a like high level professional performer. You know what I mean? Like I have some of the most spiritual moments of understanding and insight and mercy and compassion when I'm in the middle of it. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't been doing it for so long. You know what I mean?

And so it's like it takes and it gives. There's a lot to it. And I think the way that, as you said, I mean, devastating is a great word to describe the things that are coming to light now. And it doesn't mean that it was all, it's just like across the board a negative experience for everybody who's doing it. And I think that's a really complicated and strange truth to say it a lot. It changes it a lot. And that's what I think I'm reprocessing.

Me too, by the way. Like I wasn't around, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot there. I'm sorry, it's really tricky because also you and I, if I've gathered anything from our time together and from today, from this, from just knowing you, it's, it's, we're so professional. So I think it's kind of like in any work environment. I'm glad that this conversation is happening here and also in the world because it's also just kind of a cultural shift that's happening where it's not just actors and singers and whatever. If you ask anyone who's ever worked ever,

if they've ever been sort of like, you know, dealt with a boss that had a really bad ego and temper and whatever, or if they've been sexually harassed or even assaulted or it's not, it doesn't it's everywhere it's like it's statistically it's prevalent yeah it's prevalent we we point the finger a lot and fail to often remember like this behavior is prevalent it's

it's a norm we're told it's normal and it's changing and I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison standing in a place where we're like that's changing yeah that's unacceptable so yeah I think I think, yes.

One of my favorite quotes, I, Sophie and Penn will agree with this. I have like a fire and brimstone personality too. Like I'm like, let the punish. What's the other part? Only exclusively. I'm like, I want people to be like punished. So anyway, this quote is very fire and brimstone, but I love it.

But there's a quote that says, children are a trust which no community can neglect with impunity. And I think about that a lot. Like, what does that mean? Like, who's harmed when you neglect children? children, but also the community, um, the adults that don't show appropriate behavior towards children. And I, I feel like what's, what's worse in the film industry maybe or more amplified is like a spirit of adult behavior towards children. What I've gathered from,

from interviewing a lot of our guests who started as children is that there's like two phenomena that are common. One is like infantilizing people, treating people who aren't children like children and then treating children like adults, like expecting adult behavior from them or acting in ways letting children be exposed to things that they're not developmentally ready for. No. That's really upsetting.

Yeah. And there's also a strange pattern that occurs where it's really taken advantage of how how much it means to the young performer to get a laugh from Video Village. You're like, oh shit.

Like, I'm doing something great. Like, this is funny. This is good. By the way, Video Village, we should say. is where all of the producers and the director are watching the monitors of what's being captured on camera. Yeah. Yeah, so it's interesting

because I think that was, speaking specifically about our show, I think that was something that we were convinced was like the cool thing about us, is that like we pushed the envelope with our humor and the innuendos were like, we were told and convinced as well that it was like the cool differentiation.

And I don't know, I think it just all happened so quickly and now looking back on some of the clips I'm like that's damn like really oh shit my daughter you know sorry I just think about it it's like what I if I had a daughter

it's like yeah and yeah the craziest part of that is like how many people have to approve it like when you start working in television so many adults so many adults so many adults so many adults approved that so that's it's like there's no spirit of responsibility towards children right there's a spirit of like a bottom line, a financial bottom line. There is a bottom line. And then the things that weren't approved for the network were snuck onto like our website or whatever it was. And that

is another discovery. But going into it, I guess I'm upset. Yeah. But you know, I'm thinking towards the end, my mom was allowed to come to set when I was like, you know, a little. She wasn't allowed to come to come to set. When we were younger, they were allowed to come to run through sometimes or like things like that, like occasionally, I think, but, yeah, towards the end, she was there, like, a little more, and we've been talking a lot about this recently, and she's been, like, sort of... My mom and I have, too, by the way. Yeah. Well, just, I mean, because it's like... It's awakening. Yeah, you have to start a process, like, okay, so now knowing what we all know, neither would I want my children to be an environment like that, nor does my mother, in retrospect,

think that I should have been an environment like that. So, you know, then, And how do we kind of reconcile around that as, you know, for the sake of our relationship? Yeah. And how do you also like put it to use? How do we put it to use? How do we put it to use? I was actually talking about this with Max, who I said earlier, because I think that in my contract as a Republic Records artist, I want to see them move. forward. I need to call Monty Libbon about this.

Monty, I have an idea. No, but I think it should be provided that if you're going to be doing this on this scale and your life is going to turn into something that you know it is if you do it, if it goes well, and if you get to do it and you get to be on the stage at the Grammys and, you know, your

dreams are coming true. There should be an element that is mandatory of therapy, of a professional person to unpack what this experience of your life changing so drastically does to you at a young age, at any age.

It's just really gets you for a second. Arianna, I want to say completely sincerely that meeting you now, I mean, you're just so lovely and kind and sweet. But even from afar, I just feel, and Penn, I've like had conversations with Penn about this completely sincere, you're so strong. Like you've gone through some incredible things. And I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like you seem to handle things with grace.

Yeah. That's nice. Thank you. You got me. Thank you. That's nice. It's true. Thank you.

I think everyone in this room is very strong. Thank you. And yeah. You don't know them. You don't really know them. I was only talking about, no, I'm kidding. No, but thank you. My therapist is doing great.

That was actually, can I just, just a quick detour. Yeah. Speaking of the funniest things that have happened in the, like, world that is so many degrees removed from what we're actually doing in real life. One of the funniest stories when I was becoming whatever I became was that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I think it was, of course it was. But they said that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I've been with that therapist for 15 years.

Wow. You should be ashamed of yourself. No, we literally send it to each other from time to time. It was like a joke. I'm like still going strong. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louie Dreyfus,

Fail Better with David DeCovney, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less, with fewer ads, with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonata Media.