Podcrushed - [Rerun] Demi Lovato

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

[Original air date: October 2, 2024] Demi Lovato (rockstar, popstar, and now Child Star director) sits down with Penn in New York City for an intimate and wide ranging conversation about her life -- from her time as a young actor on Barney, to her breakout role in Camp Rock as a teenager, to her stratospheric and storied music career in her adulthood.    🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava

Lemonado. So he's like, Scott, come here, come in the class real quick. And he stood there and was like, okay. And the teacher, the coach teacher was like, someone in this classroom has a crush on you. No. Yes. And it was so fucked up.

Yeah, that's not fair for an adult to do that. And he goes, who? And everyone just pointed at me. And I was like, hi. Literally everyone points at you. I was mortified. That's the actual, like, you're always terrified of everyone pointing at you? Yes.

And it actually happened. It actually happened today. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties.

If we weren't too busy hanging out with our parents who were actual middle school besties. Nerd. Demi, thank you. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for having me. Really, I'm very excited to get into this. You have a document. at right now called Child Start, which we will get into, but we will start with you like we do

with everybody else at 12 years old. And you can tell me if I'm, if I'm right in my, in my, in my, guesstimation. You know, you started acting, singing, performing very, very young. I think like six, is that right? Seven. Seven. Okay. And then of course, when you really blew up, you were a teenager. So there's this period where we like to start, we call it middle school, you know, 12 years, this unique transition. Describe for me, if you can, just a snapshot of life for you at 12. How were you seeing the world?

Did you see yourself as an artist and a performer still? Or, you know, those things? So 12 was a loaded year. It was a heavy year for me. It's when I left public school, I had been bullied actually and which I get into in my film a little bit there was a petition for me

to hurt myself, take my own life and people passed it around the school and signed it. That was at 12. I didn't know that was at 12. Somehow I got the sense in a doc that it was like 14, 15. Not that that would be much better, but... Yeah, 12 was hard for me.

And that, yeah, it was really difficult for me. That had happened. I left public school because of that. I developed an eating disorder. Okay. Then I was really lonely and I didn't have any friends, really. But I found this girl that I used to be friends with in elementary school and she got me into a lot of trouble. Like her, she was like, do you have any, I was like, how do you have so many older friends?

And she was like, well, do you party? And I was like, what does that mean? She was like, do you drink? And I was like, no. She was like, oh, well, that's how I have so many older friends. And I wanted to be like her with all these friends, you know, because I had just been bullied and had nobody. I felt so isolated.

Yeah. So I started getting into substances at 12. And where was this? This was in Dallas, Texas. Okay, all right. I also had been in a car accident, right before I turned 13 where I was prescribed

Vicodin and was taking that without my mom knowing and she kind of came downstairs one day and was like, where did half of this bottle go? And I was like, well, I've just been taking it when I need it. And she was like, you're already halfway through this bottle. Like, you can't keep.

Like, I'm taking this. this is no longer yours. And so, yeah, she took it away from me. And that was the first time that I felt like anything other than alcohol. And I loved it. And, yeah, that was kind of like the year that everything in my life changed. That really resonates with me. I moved to L.A. when I was 12.

And the first time I started taking all substances, so I feel you there. What? I wonder, because you you are so talented, you have such a gift of a voice. Thank you. I guess I'm curious, how did you see yourself? Where was the artist then? Where was the performer then? I put it on hold for that year.

For 12. 12, I put it on hold with the exception of like, during, actually, so I would do my schoolwork in the mornings and then I would spend the rest of the afternoon working on music. So playing piano. You were out of... So I left public school. That's right.

And then you were in a... Was it a professional school? No, I was homeschooling. Okay, cool. I did that for a year. Yeah. Which really meant no school for me. It was no school for me too.

But I mean, I did a little bit in the mornings. And then I would work on music for the rest of the afternoon. And I would play piano. I'd play guitar. I'd write songs. I'd sing. And I just would be working on music. And I used that time.

to work on my craft and what fueled that motivation was I wanted to be so famous that the bullies that bullied me in school, they couldn't escape me. That's right, yeah. Yeah. And so I worked on my craft during that time, but, you know, on the weekends or, and yeah, on the weekends, I would party with my new, well, old friend. Yeah, yeah. And I started getting a lot of time.

into trouble. I mean, so you had a craft. You had like a dedicated craft already. Yeah, it started happening around eight years old. Okay. I started taking voice lessons. I started, you know, learning how to sing from a professional. And I started taking guitar lessons, piano lessons. Piano lessons I had started, no, it was around that time. So I was taking, I was working on my craft at, I would say eight years old. And at that point, when, well, you, you know, it was, well, you, So I guess because you did the TV thing so early that was it always like in your mind meant to be professional? You know, I wonder at what age, because I started very young as well, not quite as young as you, but like so much of my adult life as if I ever feel able to call myself an artist is like trying to find that. Thank you.

Thank you. Trying to find that place where it wasn't about external validation. I'm not always sure how far back I have to go. I think it's about nine for me. Oh, yeah. I had known since I was, well, the very first time that I felt a pull to music was around like three, four years old. I started singing a lot around the house. And at four or five years old, I performed at the talent show in kindergarten.

And I had this moment where I was singing. Celine Dion's, my heart will go on. Okay. And I had this moment where my microphone cut out in the middle of the performance. And I'm four or five years old, terrified. I see the boy that I had a crush on in the front row laughing at me. Okay. And I started to cry.

But there was a switch that happened in me that was like, no, you're not going to let them win. Your heart will go on. My heart will go on. Did you keep singing? I kept singing. The microphone kept turned back on. Wow. And it was this little miracle.

So you're like with tears streaming down your face at four years old? Yes. Wow. So dramatic. So I finished the song. And there was a moment where I was like, when I look back and like, why did I fight through that? And I think it was like the passion that I had to be on stage. Sure, sure.

And I wanted it ever since. And I knew. And I mentioned this in the documentary. I had seen Shirley Temple, and I knew being that young, that if she could do it, I could do it. Right. And so I started to, I mean, I was singing all the time at my house, and then I started taking lessons. I had booked Barney and started singing on there while and acting at the same time. But yeah, I knew from a very young age that I wanted.

wanted to do this and be on stage. But I think when I knew it was a profession, was when I booked Barney. And I started getting those checks in the mail and was like, oh, wow, this is not just playtime anymore. This is like an actual job. Yeah, I mean, so much of your documentary is exploring that. So I guess we'll kind of just constantly tackle

between these things, right? So like what your documentary is doing, I think, quite responsibly and really impactfully is like exploring how there's something kind of like baked into the whole premise of a child star that is, right? That's like not going to serve the child and therefore it's not,

can't really be serving anybody else. There's something. Well, I think that it can serve the child to a certain degree if it's something that they love doing. Like I, my parents didn't push me to do this career. I was begging them to take me to auditions. Yeah, right. You know, and so I think when you have something that motivates you

and dreams in a child, you want to help foster those dreams to becoming a reality. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, I mean, so, so then it sounds like maybe up until this period of adolescence and then the stuff you went through later in your teen years, it sounds like was it, did you experience it then mostly as like really exciting and really inspiring? It was definitely inspiring and exciting. And it was everything that I could ever imagine.

You know, I dreamt of it. and wanted it so badly. Like I dealt with, and you know this, you know, being an actor, you deal with so many years of rejection before you get your big break. I mean, that's the case for most people. And I booked Bernie and then I continued to audition. Right. And I wasn't working.

I wasn't booking anything. And I dealt with years of rejection. And I think that, like, I think that, you know, I paid my dues is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, of course, of course. How did you feel as a kid then? Because, I mean, what I recall is not being old enough or mature enough at all to be able to separate myself from the roles that I was auditioning for, really. And when I was being turned down for a role to not feel ultimately like, well, I'm not good enough. Of course, I couldn't have articulated this thing.

Then I would just would have been like, you know, when you get anything, it's like a relationship. It's like a relief from a kind of tension you didn't even know you're always in. You know, you're just like, oh, I got something. I'm like, I'm okay. Yeah. And so I don't know what the question is in that. I just feel like. I think it's just taking a look at, you know, how, how difficult it could be for a child to separate from not taking it personal every time that they get rejected.

It's like, it's so intense. So I guess how many years, so you had basically from like seven or eight until when you I booked maybe like a commercial here or there. Sure, a few things. But I think it was until 14 that I started actually booking jobs. Right. You mentioned your, did I hear it right, your great grandparents? Yeah.

Is that right? So they were around. They were around. So this is actually, wait, let me see if I can unbutton this. might take a second. Yeah, denim. I was very close with my great-grandparents. And my grandmother had had my mom at a young age.

There's no way I'm going to be able to do it. Yeah, I can try. Wait, let me see. Oh, wait. No, it's a losing. Yeah, no, a denim button. I have a tattoo of my great-grandmother on my arm. But she, you know, I was close with them.

My mom, my grandma had my mom at a young age. And so my great-grandparents were a lot younger than most great-grandparents. And you had all generations in the house? No. Or around? I was close with my great-grandparents during a period of time that my grandparents weren't in the picture. Okay. So they were kind of my...

They were essentially like my grandparents for a while. Okay. And that's why I became so close with them. And they would watch me all the time. I just was super close with them. That's awesome. Yeah, I was really lucky to grow up with great-grandparents and grandparents. It's something that, God, I never will take for granted.

Are they still alive? So my great-grandparents are not still alive. they passed away in 2015 and 2016. It's still so recently, my goodness. It's amazing to have them around. Yes. And I was devastated. And then my grandma and grandpa passed.

My grandfather passed away during COVID. And then my grandmother passed away in 2021 or 2022. That's really recent. Yeah. That's a lot of recent loss. Yeah. It was difficult. Just a part of all that you're...

I'm just thinking of like the powerful convergence of the many forces that you're working with that you're transparent about in your art and in documentaries. So I just want to kind of appreciate that for a moment. That's a lot of loss. Oh, thank you. A lot of that you're going through, that you've been going through. Yeah, I've experienced a lot of loss in life. So...

You know, it doesn't... surprise me just because there is something so powerful in your voice like i mean i i don't believe that there needs to be pain to have strength and power but it's almost like if we don't endure pain then where else does our power shine the most so but your voice is marked by such a strength and before prepping for this interview like i got to say i just i just didn't know i did not know until the last few weeks and I've been in this like Demi Lovato bubble I mean

so many of your songs have been stuck in my head I'm not I am I just want to give you your flowers like thank you I did not quite know the your scope as an artist and your power and you're and just like really I've been I'm like I'm a convert I'm like

telling people oh thanks you're so sweet and especially when I had food poisoning you so kindly gave me like electrolytes and soup because we had to cancel our first interview. I was just in this kind of delirious state and just like listening to your music. And the only other time I can recall that happening was when Kendrick's last record came out, Mr. Morrell, and I had COVID in London while I was shooting the fourth season of my show.

Uh-huh. There was some kind of mirror experience there. Like the last time I was just like laid out in bed. And I mean, I'm a Kendrick Stan. Like I love that man and what he does as, you know, basically everyone does. But you know, you're in good company. I don't, I don't, I don't, I'll be respectful to everybody, but I don't necessarily tip my hat to everybody. Yeah, thank you so much.

So, yeah, you know, we'll get there. Oh, I did want to ask you about your voice. When? So you didn't always have the pain. At some point we all. Right. But you probably always had. Or did I?

Yeah, well, that's what I was going to ask. When did you? Or anyone around you just start noticing your voice. And then also was it always like, this girl is singing like, somebody has broken her heart. What is happening? I think it, I don't really know. I don't really remember someone like pointing out the soulfulness in my voice.

But I have been through quite a lot. And I've had trauma that started at a young age. And so I think I've always just drove like, drew from my emotions in that sense. And yeah, I mean, I think that it's kind of just always been there. Looking at, like, if you can recall yourself a 12, looking out at the horizon of, you know, you've been developing this craft, you had this incredible gift.

How did you see that horizon then? Were you hopeful? You know what I think? I think it was like the ultimate manifestation where, like, I just knew I was going to make it. I knew I would be successful and there was no telling me otherwise. It was like someone, you know, told me when I was, before I came onto this planet, that like you're going to have a, and it wasn't even that like you're going to stand on stage and sing in front of thousands of adoring fans. It was, you are going to have a purpose.

Like you are, you like have, you're going to use your platform for good and talk about your personal experiences so that you can help others. And it was just like, I don't know, I just always knew that that was going to be my future. And you don't have a sense of where some kind of external place where that sense of determination came from. You felt you always had it. So I always knew that I would be on stage and singing in front of, you know, thousands of people. But like there was one moment where I actually, I, so part of my family grew up Pentecostal. And I went to this church convention. And now I don't know how I feel about religion now.

Well, I do know how I feel about religion, but I don't know. my spirituality is kind of like I'm figuring things out. Sure, yeah. Because I did grow up religious and but now my, you know, certain things don't align for me. So I'm like, what do I believe in?

You have loaded feelings about religion. That's really, that's a, I mean, that's well said, well understood. Yeah, definitely. Like, I don't believe in institutionalized religion. So, anyways,

I, went to this church convention and I you know my faith was really strong at that point and this woman um prophesized over me and she said you're going to be a hero to thousands of people someday through the arts and at that moment she got it wrong it's millions thank you um you know that woman kind of like there was a switch inside of me that was like that was when I knew I wanted to use my

voice for good and I kind of like made this pact with God which you're not supposed to do but I did I was like if you make me if you give me my dreams if you make me this famous singer then I will use my

voice for good and so that was when it showed inside of me that I knew I it wasn't just about singing what I hear is like a sincere a child basically having a sincere desire to to actually be of service to like to do good with something that you've been gifted with yeah and that's I mean look that's that's that's deep that's um that's not necessarily that's not religious that's just like spiritual and human and that's beautiful yeah and so that's why like that's a huge reason why I'm so vulnerable with the public and sharing my struggles is because I know that it's going to help

somebody out there feel less alone and hopefully get the help that they need. Before my co-hosts who really wish they were here would kill me if I did not get. We have classic questions just about like middle school, even though you weren't in it. The show is called Pod Crush because we do like to have some of these, whether funny or deep or embarrassing, awkward, crushing, just stories of like first love and heartbreak. Yeah. You know?

It sounds like your first crush was at four, you said. Which we've had before, by the way. We've had plenty of that. We've had like four and six. And I remember the first one I can recall was at six years old. My first crush was a fifth grader when I was in kindergarten.

Wait a second. That's five to, what, 11 years old, maybe? 10 years old? Yeah, like 10 years old. I had a crush on this boy named Douglas MacDonald I don't think we ever talked. Like, there was no... Yeah, how would you?

Yeah, because I'm in kindergarten. Unless he babysat you. Yeah. Right. And I, that was my very first crush. And that was the one that laughed at me when I was on stage in kindergarten. Oh, so when you said that was a crush, I was imagining this other boy like lined up next to you. Just like kind of like doing the pee dance, just like super.

Okay. Oh, so this older boy laughed at you. Pointed and laughed at me. How did you feel? I started crying. That is okay. And then you powered through and sang the rest of Celine Dion's My Heartland. That's really amazing.

Okay. All right. What was the first time you had a crush that could reciprocate? Whether or not they did reciprocate. Yeah. It was sixth grade. Okay. His name was Nathan Moore.

All right. And I had just like had a crush on him. I think we ended up going out. And by going out, I just mean like we called each other boyfriend. and girlfriend. And like didn't speak, probably. Yeah, probably didn't speak. But no, he was, um, he was my first kiss. And yeah, that was like, I think,

like we broke up and I don't remember. Much? I don't remember much. Yeah, it was the sixth grade. Okay. But, um, but that was my first, like, boyfriend. Okay. Yeah. There was the, like, my, one of my most embarrassing moments of my entire life. Um, I had a crush on an older guy. Surprise. I was in the the sixth grade, he was in the eighth grade. Yeah, that's not insane.

Yeah, and he was like the most popular guy in school, and he was on the football team, and I had this teacher that was a social studies teacher and a coach to the football team. Okay. And so I was sitting in class one day, and I mentioned it to one of the other classmates, and I said, like, yeah, I've got a crush on Scott,

and my coach overheard. I was like, who do you have a crush on? And I was like, nobody in the person I told it to is like, Scott. And yeah, so we were in the class, and all of a sudden, guess who walks by the door? And the coach knows him because he's on the football team. Right, okay. So he's like, Scott, come here, come in the class real quick. And he stood there and was like, okay.

and the teacher, the coach teacher was like, someone in this classroom has a crush on you. No. Yes. And it was so fucked up. Yeah, that's not fair for an adult to do that. And he goes, who? And everyone just pointed at me.

And I was like, hi. Clearly everyone points at you. I was mortified. That's the actual, like, you're always terrified of everyone pointing at you? Yes. And it actually happened. It actually happened to me. But it was kind of worth it because we ended up

Like years later. All right. Years, okay. Yeah. That's funny. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. I do want to go back to life before and after Camp Rock.

Is there any clear life before and after? I mean, it seems like there's no comparison, right? Is that true? I mean, like before it, you were in Dallas. Before it, you were all the things we were describing. And then after it, you were just like on this space shuttle. So it was really, it was a whirlwind. I went to L.A. for a week to have a meeting with a manager.

And this was when I was 15 in March. The movie was coming out in, the movie, maybe this was February, actually, but the movie was coming out in June or July. And I go to L.A. to meet with this manager. So you'd already done the film? Yes. I shot the film the year. before. Okay. I meet with this manager and he was like, you know, if we want, if we're going to do this, we got to get the ball rolling. We need to take advantage of the momentum and release an album with Camp Rock. And I was like, but we're months away from it. And he was like, well, we need to work fast. So I went straight on the road. At this time, I wrote my album, my first album with the Jonas Brothers. And I went straight on the road with them to write an album. Um,

We wrote a bunch of songs. I had straight to L.A. And then I think I went home maybe to like pack my bags for tour. I went on tour. And camp rock came out. And yeah, when I came off tour, I came back to a new house in L.A. And so it was kind of like. Wait, you were touring what, like with the Jonas Brothers?

Yeah. So first I did a small tour where like my first show had like, like 150 people in Hershey Park, Pennsylvania at the, and like the Amphemy Theater inside, like the park. And it was, you know, my family was passing out flyers trying to get people to come up, come to the show. And it went from that to a month later opening for the Jonas Brothers. And my first show was in front of 18,000 people.

Wow. So I went, it was pretty overnight for me. it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't literally overnight, but it was basically overnight. And once Camp Rock came out, everything changed for me. And I, you know, got on a train that didn't stop for a really long time, what felt like a really long time. And it was years. But, yeah, that was kind of like the beginning of my journey. Do you remember what music you were listening to then? Yes. I was listening to, I was in my, like emo phase.

Okay. So I was listening to a bunch of emo bands, um, started getting into like some screamo bands. Then I was into like metal for a minute. And then like, you know, which I still appreciate. Um, but I was listening to like more of rock music at this point in my life.

Yeah. So how did you feel about the, you know, the tension between for surely there was, it was a creative tension. positive and then maybe otherwise, between this kind of like clean, I guess this clean kind of more pop image that you had, that you had the pressure and responsibility, I guess, to be a part of creating. Yeah. But then it sounds like, you know, what you were listening to privately and did you feel, did you already feel at that age that you wanted to get into something, I don't know what the word would be grittier or, you know, what have you? I don't know I felt like

I was doing pop rock music My first two albums were pop rock It wasn't until like my third album That I started going into like more pop And that was when I like Released to Give Your Heart a Break Which was very very pop And it was from then on that I started

I kind of like went through a phase where I just did what I felt other people wanted me to do, which was, you know, wear the hair extensions and wear the leotards on stage and have this hyper feminine image put out in front of the world. And I started dressing sexier and, you know, just became this person that I don't relate to today. And I feel like I was more of, when I was 15, there was like more of an authenticity to my art because it was reflective of what I was.

Yeah, I feel like it was more authentic than like my cool for the summer days. Just because it was more reflective of what I was listening to at the time. So then did you feel like you were reclaiming it by the artist starting over? or, you know, I'm just, because it's interesting to have felt so young, something I really resonate with, or I identify with that, like feeling, I felt the most authentic, I think, at about 12, probably. And then as an artist, it's like, I think in my 30s, finally been able to reclaim some of that. Yeah.

When did you feel like you started to reclaim that? So when I did, the art of starting over, dancing with the devil, I did start to reclaim it. I also, during that time, I think it was like right around the album release, I came out as non-binary. Right, right. And I really shed that image of that hyper feminine pop star that I, that I had been for so many years. I really started to shed that image. I cut all my hair off and it was like really freeing for me.

And I wasn't, I kind of like, I had ditched. I kind of like shunned the feminine side of me and really started to embrace my masculinity. I feel like for me being non-binary, when people ask that, what does it mean to me? It's like I feel masculine and feminine. So I just feel like I,

well, I feel like I'm kind of both. Like I have both energies and me. And at that point in my life, I really shunned the feminine energy in me. And now I'm able to like embrace both. So I was like figuring out my gender and trying to figure out who I was. And I started to reclaim it. And then I did holy fuck where I really started to reclaim like go back to my roots,

which is what I had been, you know, being so appreciative of rock music going back to those roots. It's there. I mean, you hear it. It's like a, it's a tough album. I mean that in a good way. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. It's pretty hard and interesting.

By the way, eat me as a song. I thought, like, the lyricism is really great. Thank you. It's like funny, you know what I mean? It's, it's, and it's, yeah, I was very, very impressed by that record. Thank you so much. You're talking about this time where it's almost like you were so busy that you were, that you were losing yourself, which again, I think anybody who ends up.

operating at this kind of high level can identify with. And in the film and Child Star, you described this period where, I mean, you were like tour, movie record, tour movie record. It was just very, very... It was movie album tour TV show, movie album tour TV show,

movie album tour TV show. And so it was like, it was very jam-packed. And yeah, it was a lot to handle at 16, 17 years old. Right, at any age, by the way. At any age. At any age, that is a lot to handle. And I mean, there's adults who have breakdowns at that.

Yeah, and burnout. Right. And so I actually think, like, there's a point in the film where, you know, you're looking at kind of like the social norms surrounding this stuff, which I love. Because I think sometimes when we get, whether we're a viewer or, you know, the person making this stuff, You can sometimes get mired in the details and forget that like you're not solely responsible for this. There's like there's a whole apparatus and a culture around that apparatus that like keeps creating this problem of a person at the top of like a brand or an empire who is like who is really, really struggling and really isolated. And I mean, in fact, it seems to me like it happens. more often than not.

You know what I mean? And so at some point, the stat comes up, Hannah Montana generated one billion, was generating $1 billion, like at its peak. And you have experts reflecting on this idea

that child stars aren't that simply because they're the most talented. It's not that they aren't. It's just that they're necessarily created by a team of adults to sell products, you know? And so I guess I'm wondering

about this, you know, you're forthcoming about it. Not everybody in this position is forthcoming about it. So I guess I'm curious, like, you know, you're talking about it in the film, this interplay between, I guess I wonder, at the time when it was the hardest, and I know there have been ups and downs, and so it might be hard to identify when it was the hardest,

do you also feel like there was fulfillment from what you were doing, or was that just completely gone? There was definitely fulfillment. You know, it was like, I'd be going through my calendar and I knew that it was too much, but I'd have an opportunity

to be on the cover of Cosmopolitan or the cover of 17 magazine or Teen Vogue or whatever it was. And like, how do you turn down those photo shoots when you dreamt, you had those covers hanging on your wall in Texas of people? people that you were fans of.

And award shows, you know, or there was this pressure to go do promo for the album that you just spent so much time and effort working so hard on.

So it's like you want the payoff, so you do the extreme, you know, you do the extreme like street week, for instance, when you're album comes out. You don't sleep that week because you're in full promo mode. And you do everything you can so that it's a success because you work so hard on it. And this is your dream. And so like,

it was really hard to say no when I was getting all of these offers coming through because it was fulfilling to me. You know, it, it was exciting and it was fun. It was just too much fun, I guess. It was too much fun that came with a lot of pressure. And it was just like a kind of a recipe for burnout. So to me, and please correct me if I get anything wrong. But Child Star to me seems to be like the next step in your path to what I'm calling, like transmuting or alchemizing these really extreme forces that come at you as I think anybody in like a true pot. pop star position. Like I am subject to them as well. I've experienced it, but I think people

at your level and specifically in music, like that's kind of the pinnacle of it, you know? So I feel like you've been taking all of this and turning it into art, as we were saying before, like, you know, it's this almost like this like service in a way. And you've been doing this, I think increasingly with every record you put out, it seems like, especially when you came out with the artist starting over, you know, dancing with the devil, that seems like where you became really forthcoming, really transparent, like that seemed to me to be like a concept record, which again, the last like two weeks I've been getting into and just blown me away. Thank you.

What inspired you to, with Child Star, to tell your story in this way? and why now, you know, for you to be in front of and behind the camera, for it to be on camera at all. What inspired you to do it this way? This whole journey has been a really reflective journey for me. I wanted to take a look. So I actually, you know, going, like entering my 30s, was like, what do I want to do? Like, does this still make me happy? Is it still fulfilling to me?

and why did I get into it? And I started this journey of like wanting to, in order to figure out my future, I needed to go back to the beginning. And there had always been this curiosity inside of me that was like just fascinated by the subject of child stardom. You know, why do parents get their kids into it? Is it always the kid pushing the parents or vice versa? you know, how it affects child stars being in the public eye at such a young age. And then, of course, I had a personal connection to it because of my own story and being a child star myself. So, and I've always wanted to direct.

Like, I've co-directed some music videos before. And so this journey just kind of came together. It all fell into place. And, yeah, I wanted to. tell the stories and get different perspectives on child stardom and that's why I interviewed so many people about it right well so in the beginning of child star you say something that i actually thought was really funny uh your car director i think is right is asking you um how do you feel about being on camera yeah and at first you i have it here what did you say you say you say something that you

say, um, I don't mind. And then she presses you and, uh, and, and you choose on a scale of one to 10 to give it an eight. Yeah. Which is, um, pretty bad. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, you know, so, so, uh, that right there, I thought captured something again, I, I, of course, can relate to, like, this feeling of, of, of, of, of being on camera, being vulnerable for the sake of, you know, something you're trying to communicate, but like having so many, so many mixed feelings about it. As you were developing this and being like, like, this is the way I'm going to do it now. This is the next step I'm going to take.

Were you nervous about its reception? Were you thinking about that at all? So, of course, I was nervous. I've never co-directed a film in my life. And, you know, quite frankly, didn't, I felt like I didn't know what I was doing. And I'm kind of just nervous all the time anyways. Like, I have bad anxiety.

And so I'm kind of just always nervous. But I was nervous definitely about stepping into this role of being a co-director and you know was it you sometimes when you have a dream you're you know

you're like this this is great this sounds good but when you start to make it a reality you're like oh my God what if it doesn't do what I thought you know it's like it's like the idea of it sounds really good in the beginning

when we started working on the film and as we started going I was like wait wait a second this is real and this could flop this could not turn out the way that I like. Yeah. What if? Yeah, it was just all these what ifs. And so, of course, I was nervous.

Yeah, I feel like when you start making decisions with a project and it starts taking shape. Yes. When you have to commit to things, that's when you get nervous because you're like, I'm doing it now. Oh, yeah. Like, I have a hard time picking out wallpaper for my kitchen, let alone, you know, deciding what shots go where in a film. so that people are going to see many people. And so I, you know, it was difficult for me. How did you find your co-director, Nicola? Nicola, you know, through agents and production, the production team that we worked with at OBB,

you know, it just kind of happened through meetings. How was that relationship? I mean, it's very intimate. She's so great. She's so great. She's funny. She's smart. She's so inquisitive and so articulate with her words.

She's just so intelligent. And I saw her work with Stay on board, the Leo Baker story. Okay. And, you know, watched it. And it really resonated with me. And so when we had that meeting, I was still. And yeah, she's just so great. And I feel like I'm going to have a, I made not only a great professional relationship with her,

but I'm going to have a friend for a really long time in her. That's awesome. Yeah. What you're also speaking about in the beginning is like, which again, I think anybody in a position like ours can relate to. And then, of course, I think all people can relate to like body image issues. Yeah. Because you're so forthcoming about it,

I would think that you also have tools to sort of manage that. Can you share any of those tools or how you're working with it now? Yeah, so I have a treatment team that I work with that helps me stay in recovery. Okay. And I've been in recovery from bulimia for about five, going on six years now. Wow, okay. And, you know, I've, so I've been in recovery for some time now. and I think the thing for me is I'm now in a body that feels I don't I'm trying to learn body

acceptance rather than body positivity because body positivity feels like I can't even reach that yet you know I I have to work on body acceptance body neutrality um because that feels like a goal I can reach. And so some days I just work on, and I do this with my treatment team. I have a nutritionist and a therapist that specializes in eating disorders. And I just work with them on, and we come up with tools, but we also, we do, you know, sessions on body image. And they provide me with a ton of insight. And yeah, I think the main thing that I'm working on is just body acceptance. and just looking in the mirror and being like, this body is strong.

This body, like very basic elementary affirmations, but like this body saved my life and fought for my life when I was, you know, when I overdosed. It's like I, this body is a miracle. And that's what I have to focus on because loving my body and full, and having full acceptance over it doesn't feel like a, it feels too far away right now. You could say that body positivity is almost like still there's a lot of focus on the body.

Whereas something about the way that I think about body neutrality is like there's just not as much focus on the body. And we are so like body obsessed. We really are. And it's exhausting for all of us. Like I don't care what body you have. It's exhausting for everybody. Yeah. It is.

I mean, I actually just recently got into, I don't get on social media much, but I have YouTube, like an old man. and I started getting myself in a shape in the middle of this last season because usually quite skinny so fitting into my old clothes was actually I was like all right this is I am a dad and it has been a pandemic and this is real so I was just trying to trim down

and I have now been exposed to like a male fitness YouTube like that algorithm I mean we do it's a wild place. So even, I mean, I think like men who exhibit the most incredible, like, masculine physiques, I think they've still got so much going on up there. Yeah, I mean, there was a time where I would work out like three times a day. It didn't, it wasn't for, you know, it wasn't sustainable, so it didn't last very long.

but there was a time where I was practically living at my gym. Can I ask when that was? Like what? Yeah, that was like 2016. Okay. Or 2017, one of the two. And I was working out and I was, the thing was is I was miserable inside. Right.

You know, and I still wasn't happy with my body. And so when I think about, you know, when I think about my body and I get triggered because I'm like having a bad body image day, I think to myself, like, well, even if you were in the body that you quote unquote desire for right now, like, I guess I didn't need the quote on quits. But even if you were in the body that you desire, like, there's a possibility that you still won't be happy. Like, you have to achieve body neutrality at the size you are because just because you're smaller doesn't mean you're going to find peace with your body. body image. Yeah, exactly. Or for men bigger, you know. Right, right, right.

Yeah, it's so true. In fact, I think it basically is, it's something of like the premise that you're exploring in Childstar, which is like when you achieve what you believe you want, not only are, chances are not only that it won't fulfill you, but because you have achieved it and

it alone does not fulfill you, you you stand a great chance of feeling in some ways worse or just a surprise disappointment, this sort of hollowness because Like what that is not fulfilling me. So therefore, you know, what is wrong with me? Right.

That it's not fulfilling. Right. Stick around. We'll be right back. By the way, I really love the tone that you've struck in the film and here. Thank you. Which is, you're not at all. I mean, I just, I want to say to anybody who's also listening.

It's like I don't experience it remotely as it's never complaining. It's like you're bearing witness to this phenomenon that we all bear witness to, but most of us are on one side of the phenomenon. And that is like pop stardom, celebrity, whatever that is, you know. Most people are watching it. And then there's a very few people who are going through it. And I feel like it's important for some of the people who are going through it to kind of bear witness to the reality of what it is.

Because so many people are transfixed, as you kind of see in the beginning of the film, opening on these children kind of being asked, what do you want to be? What do you want to be? What do you want to be? Famous. Yeah. It's like society is,

so obsessed with celebrity and fame that it's kind of seeped into everything everyone's every it's in the consciousness of everyone's mind including children and so it's just wild how obsessed people are with fame and celebrity

do you struggle with feelings of like I broke down under this pressure or do you feel that essentially anyone would break under that pressure? Because I think anyone would break under that pressure. I think anyone would break under this pressure. Absolutely. But I also am aware of the fact that I came into this industry

with issues already. And eating disorder and substance abuse behaviors. And so I kind of, it was only a matter of time. before I cracked under the pressure. But I do think that anybody could crack. But then you look at certain celebrities that have not cracked under the pressure after being child stars, you know, they're...

Who were they? I mean, like Emma Watson. You know what I mean? Like, she went to... Oh, good pick. Fucking college. Yeah, she does seem extremely... Although, you know, she probably having all the private...

But we also don't know. That's the thing about, like, celebrities. You just never know, and we think we know, but we don't. And so it's just interesting to like, and I was fascinated, which is one of the reasons why I made this film was like, why do we turn out the way that we did?

And how does it affect me today? Is it something that I still want to do? Why did I feel like I needed so much validation, outside validation? And it was just all these like facets and then... Do you feel like you're getting answers to those questions?

Yeah, I do. I feel like, for instance, one of the questions is like, do I want to still do this today? You know, going into this film, I was like considering retirement because I didn't know if it fulfilled me anymore, but for some reason,

it was so therapeutic working on this project, realizing that, like, I don't need success. I don't need to... Yeah, I don't need success. I need to be happy. And at the end of the day, music does make me happy. And that's why I want to continue it. I don't want to do it because of obligation to, you know, or not obligation, but I don't want to do it because I feel like I have to. I want to do it because I love it. And working on this film has helped me kind of fall back in love with music. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I love your single has come out. Thank you. I really like it.

That was like an example of me going into the studio and like finally loving something that I worked on. I'm like, I'm so self-critical that like working on this album, I'm working on a new album right now. Working on this album, I have had a really hard time like finding my sound and going into the studio and like finding that confidence again with you'll be okay kid. I was like, you know what? Like, I do love music. I do love writing. I do love working on this and I want to still continue it. So it was a cool experience getting to record that.

Yeah, it sounds to me like you know, the same way you were talking about balancing the masculine and feminine in you and kind of maybe returning to a sense of equilibrium. It sounds to me like with the new track, you like leaned really hard into rock to get back to your roots in a way. And there's, I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this. maybe you have like something way more intense and rock-infused coming but it sounds like you you kind of this new track has that to it but then it's also it's got these other elements so it's like it's maybe i don't know finding this balance yeah i mean what i'm doing in the studio now is not rock

at all um but i'm having a great time working on it and you know I've spent a year exploring with my sound like trying all these different genres and I think I know what I'm doing right now I've just been like playing basically and there's something so like innocent in playing and creating and it just brings me so much joy

that's awesome you can hear it I mean if that new single is like a vision of it I mean I feel like I'm seeing it Thank you. What are you exploring in the film and what do you want to say about minors in their relationship to social media? Because there's so many young people who are just blowing up. Yes. And in this unprecedented way, right?

Yes. It's like people view as you see the stats and the thing. It's like, you know, there's traditional media. Yes. Which is what people, our age and older are like, yeah, that's everything, right? But then it's like, no, no, no. No, there's TikTok and YouTube. Right.

And the views that we're getting on this stuff is just so much more. So actually, these young people who, like, whose names, I don't know. Me too. Whose names that a lot of our listeners wouldn't even know to a 17-year-old, to a 15-year-old, to a 13-year-old, they're just massive and they're, like, world-famous. And so the same way that back in the day you had the Coogan Laws, right, which is from an old, like a child actor way back in the early days, which you go into in the film.

It's like we need an updated version of that, right? We do. Well, luckily, legislation always follows technology. And so what we, like, I believe that there will be protections put in place. We just have to get there first. Something that was really interesting to me working on this film was like talking to JoJo Siwa, being a part of the digital age growing up with social media and the pressure on there. I was really fascinated and then also exploring, you know, how there are children on social media that are being commodified. And I just was like, there needs, I was like, where are the protections? We, being a child in the acting industry, you have the Coogan law. And that is a trust that your, a percentage of your money goes into when you, I'll start from the beginning.

Jackie Coogan was a child actor and his parents stole a bunch of money from him. And like that's the long story short. But they introduced this law helping to protect kids in the entertainment industry where if you were to go on a job, a percentage of that would go into a trust for you so that when you turn 18, you would have money that came into the picture that you worked so hard for. And the reality is there are no protections like that. put in place for the digital age. So like these kids that are on YouTube making tens of millions of dollars for unboxing toys,

there's no protections put in place for their compensation. And also if one day they say, you know what, I don't want to be on the internet anymore, they should have the right to be able to take that down. And so there are protections trying to be put in place for that as well. I actually learned that there is a bill

in California that's sitting on Governor Gavin Newsom's desk right now and hopefully that'll get signed but this isn't the first you know that's we need these protections put in place because right now it's the Wild Wild West but yeah France actually just passed a law

that protects minors on social media and this isn't just for like minors that are you know in their family's videos and like you don't have to it's just for the children that deserve to be compensated. And also if a child wants their, you know, likeness or image taken down,

they should have the freedom to do that because they were a minor when it was put up. What's next for you? I've been cooking a lot. And it's a part of my eating disorder recovery is learning to rebuild my relationship with food by stepping into the kitchen and preparing meals for myself. That's an act of self-love for me.

and it's very healing. And so I've been learning how to cook. I am not an expert. I'm very much a beginner. And I've just been having fun making dishes in the kitchen that are like relatively easy but fun to make. And it's, I tell people that when I cook, it's the biggest fuck you to my eating disorder

that I could possibly give. That's cool. Yeah. So I've started doing that. And it's been really fun. I don't have a lot of I don't have a favorite dish to make I love baking

so like baking like a cake for someone for their birthday or like brownies they seem to be a hit with people so I love baking yeah I'll just I'll go to our last question okay so it's like it's a double back I have a feeling I feel like you've answered this question

with your new single is it you'll be okay kid yeah yeah I'm I've been listening to it a lot. I just couldn't remember the title. Thank you. If you could go back to 12-year-olds, Demi, yeah.

What would you do or say? If I could go back to 12-year-old Demi, I'd say a lot. I'd give that little 12-year-old girl. I identified it as a girl at that time. I would give her a lot of advice, some of which would be just remember you're so beautiful. Like I spent so many years of my life hating my image in my eating disorder. And I wish that I could have just told myself at such a young age,

like enforced it into my brain that you are beautiful. And it's okay to take breaks. Yeah. that also that meaningful connections are what are the most important thing will be the most important thing in my life. I value connection over success any day. That's beautiful. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you so much for coming. Yeah, thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. And like I said, such a big fan of you and you. We're interchangeable at this point. Yeah.