Podcrushed - [Rerun] Elizabeth Lail

Episode Date: March 18, 2026

[Original air date: December 27, 2022] Elizabeth Lail is our very special guest for the Season 1 finale of Podcrushed. She shares about early social stigmas that shaped her current world views, prevalent and problematic romantic tropes, and what she thinks should happen to Joe at the conclusion of YOU.   🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

He's like, he's like, oh, I Googles you, but no, I haven't seen any of your shows. You just really look like that girl from the bar. And I, I, my husband, he was just like, that's the worst that's ever gone. And he was like, you cannot do that again. You can't be like, oh, you might know me from TV. This is Pod Crushed. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing middle school story at a time. And where a guest shows.

their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout. Guys, this is our last banter session of season one. I can't believe it. I don't think we can call them a banter session to our listeners.

That's like breaking the fourth wall. This isn't a banter session. We're friends. This is spontaneous. We have a group chat. We're real friends. And we're not doing this for money. I have a question.

As we know, I love nostalgia. I'm already feeling nostalgic about this season. I want to know Penn and Sophie. What were your favorite, what was a favorite moment from this season? Oh my gosh. What's coming to mind, I actually said this before. Whenever somebody asked me what my favorite thing is, I immediately go to, oh, it was the most uncomfortable.

Okay, I want to know that. And all that came up in my mind was, so when we recorded the episode, episode that it was just us. It was in the middle of the heat wave in London. And I had to have headphones on and turn off the, well, there was no AC in that house, but there was a fan and I even had to close the door and have the windows closed and all that. And these houses in London are not built to lose heat. They're built to retain heat because it's not ever that hot in London. And I guess they stopped inventing things 150 years ago or something. I'm not sure. And I was sweating so much in that session.

And then we had to do like, you know, some pickups afterward or something. And I just remember having those headphones on for so long and then being just like wet afterward. But what I want to tell you, I also really liked that episode because we got to learn more about each other. And I just got to talk the most. Yeah. That's your favorite thing. My favorite moment from this season. I mean, I have so many I can't choose.

But the first was when Drew Barrymore said that she loved me. I love you. God, sexy. That is a life highlight for sure. And then the second, I think it got cut out of the episode, was she, Drew Barrymore said hi to our parents. She said hi to Navas dad, Tommy, and she said hi to my parents. But this was early on, I don't think Penn knew the names of my parents. Drew definitely did, yeah.

Drew Barrymore definitely didn't know the name of my parents. They're Helen and Dale. And they were going by all sorts of names throughout this episode. Alan and Gail, Ellen and Vail, I don't know, all sorts of different names and it was just really funny to me. I thought you were going to say when she said, you took a pause after hi?

You're like, when Drew Bermore said hi. That was it for me. I was like, oh, so the bar is low. The bar's pretty low right now. Yeah, I'm just obsessed with Drew Bairymour. I, yes, my favorite moment, I agree with Sophie, so many, but I love Amy Schumer.

I'm a huge Amy Schumer fan at night. I don't know if you guys know this. I don't know if we've ever talked about it. She was the first person to say yes to agree to come on the show, even though she wasn't our pilot. Wow. And I was so excited that she agreed to come on, couldn't believe it. And at one point she was like sharing an anecdote.

And like every time she would share a story, I knew it. Like I was nodding along. I was like finishing her sentence because I have like read and listened to everything she's ever done. And so at one point I like knew like a very random obscure fact. And I was like, oh yeah, you talked about that like a year ago. And she said, Nava, you're scaring me. Okay, Nava, you're scaring me.

you're scaring me. That was my favorite moment. I don't remember that at all. That was the most nervous I've been for an interview. Really? Yeah, because that was way early in the game. I had zero experience interviewing, whereas now I have zero plus like 30 hours. And I feel like in that interview you can hear me just sort of waiting and being embarrassed. That's what I can hear. Yeah. I think where I was in flow state most as an interviewer somehow I think might have been in the Mona Chaliby episode I was in London then and she's British and just talking about maybe that culture it's just there was something about that episode where and we all

really opened up really it really was just a nice moment and I feel like that was when I finally started to believe in this show that was the moment six months in six months in halfway through no I'm kidding No, but in all seriousness, it's thanks to you guys that we have a show. So really thank you for tuning in and listening and being here with us and journeying back into middle school. I was nervous when we started the show about, you know, negative comments. Like, you just hear that there's always negative comments.

And I feel like we stumbled upon the sweetest corner of the internet. The comments have been such a highlight. And like so, I mean, love the heart emojis, fire emojis. That's wonderful. But also some really like heart felt. But please stop. But people have also left us really heartfelt, meaningful messages and DMed us about, like, true, like, personal things. And it's been so touching for people to open their hearts test.

So I'm really grateful. Yeah, I agree with that. I second that. Ditto is what Patrick Strasy wouldn't say more. Why wouldn't he say more? Or was it, was it Demi Moore who wouldn't say it back? Who wouldn't say, I love you back in Ghost? I don't think anyone but you has watched Ghost.

And you always bring it up. Are you kidding me? We've cut it. I'm realizing right now how iconic this movie is in my memory of just like, I don't know, there's life and storytelling. I do reference it more than more. It's funny. Yeah, I want to give a big shout out to all of our listeners.

It's hard because I just don't know if we're going to come back. But I want to take this opportunity. It's fine. It's fine. It's good that you hear it now. I love you. Okay? I know it's weird. And I know we can never be together, but I just, I love you. Okay.

Hello? Hello? Hello? And I hung up. Okay. Well, moving on to today's guest. And of course, this means it's our final guest of season one. none other than Elizabeth Lale, who you may know from her time playing Gwynnevere Beck,

inside of a glass box, not your phone, no, Joe Goldberg's glass box, oh, boxeruny. On my show, you. Hello. Do you work here? Guilty. Can I help you find something? Paula Fox? It's a good choice.

I feel weirdly validated. Follow me. Or as Lola Morgan on the Gossip Girl reboot. Like, is it his problem or mine for caring so much? Moral of the story, you can't rely on any man. You can only rely on yourself, right? That's so fucking true. Maybe even as Princess Anna from Once Upon a Time.

So I was never even tempted by that inner darkness you speak of. In fact, I don't even think I have one. I'm unlike you, nice. It was such a joy catching up with her. I'm so happy she could join us for our season finale. Don't you go anywhere? We will be right. Hey there.

It's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard-earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling.

calling my 91-year-old mom, Judy, to get her take on it all. Wiser than me from Lemonada Media is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. It's morning in New York. Oh, God. Hey, everybody. I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Catherine Grotie. And we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us.

Many of you've asked for our advice. Tell me, what is wrong with you, Pete? People. Don't listen to us. Our Take It or Leave a Device show every Wednesday out now. A Lemonada Media Original. I was just going to ask you candidly, what is your middle name? Dean. Dean. I remember that now. Elizabeth Dean. It's a very like, um, short. Yes. Very short. It's very short in comparison to Elizabeth. It's my dad's name. Yeah. Aw, Elizabeth Dean. Your parents are lovely, by the way.

You met my parents. I met them when they came to set. I think once. Yeah. And that was a really awkward day because I was like, masturbating. Can I say masturbating? We talk about Joe masturbating a lot. Okay. So you're all good.

Yeah. Did you see the shame spiral that came over me when I said that word out loud? I know. Right next to talk about your parents. Let's do that. Okay, now let's just break this down. Now hold on. So Elizabeth, Dean Lale, you're our last guest for this season.

Oh, my. Yeah. And I think it's just a really fitting cap to our first season. Your parents were a window into your past, I think, a little bit, because they were very, just incredibly sweet. And you seemed like you were from a very different place. Yeah, and from them. A very different place than New York City?

Yeah, than New York City slash the Hollywood. You know, because when you're on set, you're just sort of perpetually in Hollywood. And so that was really nice. I am not perpetually in Hollywood in any kind of way. That's good. I don't think. Or I don't feel it on the inside. I was thinking about this podcast and I was like,

oh, I'm pretty much the same person I was in middle school. Really? I still have all the same symptoms or all the same condition. Symptoms are of a disease. Or I still have the symptoms from middle school. Yeah, right, right. Perhaps I'm better able to deal with them. But I'm very much a product of my parents, and they are very sweet and hyper-supportive.

And they were thrilled to be there. They were. Despite the fact that their daughter was playing an adult, which is what they told the Sunday school class. That is such a good little line. That's so sweet. She's playing an adult. She's ambing in a motel room. Oh, my, who I really feel bad for is my grandparents.

Oh, did they watch? Oh, yeah. They watch everything. My grandmother actually read the book. What? And then read the second book. Oh, my goodness. Wow.

So she probably won't listen to this, so I can just say, I think she enjoyed it quite a bit. Wait, wait a minute. She read the first two books and won't listen to this? Come on. Well, she might, but I don't want to blow it. her cover. We've got to be way more

in your grandmother's lane than book two of Joe friggin' goldberg. Yes, but books are very old school. That's right. And podcasts are very new school. Okay, that's fair.

Access to podcasts that I'm not sure we could create. I think you're right about that. And that's an interesting litmus test right there. She might not remember. She could listen to this and then

not remember. Aw. Yeah. Very sweet. It's a sad time growing up. Anywho. You were raised in Ashborough, North Carolina. Yes.

Right? Which is a very different kind of place from Hollywood or New York where we met. Can you tell us a little bit like just just paint in the broadest strokes? A picture? Yeah. Well, I think maybe like 15 years ago, Ashborough. was like top 10 dying cities of the United States. Dying?

Yes. It's no longer that. It's booming. And they beautified it. And I feel like a couple years ago, it got top ten most quintessentially beautiful towns. Huh. So what happened? I don't know.

That's an excellent question. I had very little to do with it. Well, you left. Although I do host the Chamber of Commerce Awards every once in a one. Wait, what? Yeah. What does that mean? It means I was very involved in my community growing up.

That's really sweet. Yeah. So how, like how, are you a politician? No, but I, it's cool because you get to talk to a lot of politicians on both sides. Right. And they're very charming in North Carolina. Interesting. And suddenly you see how it all happens.

Wow. You're like, oh, this is how people get on certain sides. This is how it all collapses. Yeah. Sorry, it's a stupid joke. But it's beautiful. It's a lovely, it's a small town. It's got its divisions.

History. It's got its history. I think they're still working on getting some Confederate statues down there. But there are a group of people working on that. So to me, that's a positive for a rural town. Of course, yeah, yeah. When you were in middle school, did it feel like a very small place? It felt like my entire world in a really beautiful way, in a way that I'm very grateful for now,

now that the world is so large because of social media and because of the industry that I'm in. I feel really grateful that I grew up thinking these were the most important people in my life, like my friends, my family, my church. school and middle school, but it was kind of life or death in that way as well. Elizabeth, can you tell us a little bit about yourself in middle school? Oh, boy. My heart hurts when I think of 12-year-old Elizabeth, which is an interesting reaction when you say that I just like want to hold her and hug her.

I've even said throughout my life, seventh grade, worst time of my life, worse year of my life. Wow. Really? You don't have any of the coping tools or perspective. that you have as an adult, so the same things could happen later, but suddenly you know it's going to be okay. But when it happens in middle school...

It's kind of the first time. A lot of those things are happening. Yeah. I feel very much the same person at my core. Shy, desperate to be an actress, even at 12. I was doing community theater,

and I thought, this is the best thing ever. Kind of the one place I felt safe, and secure and free. Silly. I was a cheerleader. Wow. You actually did, I remember you, didn't you?

Did I do a cheer for you? No, not for me. There was like a cheer joke we had, wasn't there? I feel like, yes. You're doing the, you're so naturally doing this. It's like your elbows just lock in the position. And you're just there. Naturally peppy.

Yeah, you're just ready to cheer. Yes, naturally peppy. And I do recall that was some kind of running joke we had in. season one but it's hard to. That's kind of my personality like ready to to be like supportive and peppy but could cry at any moment. Oh my gosh, that's such a good combo.

It means you need a cheerleader. You need someone cheering you on. I do. That's beautiful. But Elizabeth that also makes you such a good actress like that combination of qualities I feel is like that's what you want also and I just like cry on a dime. That's amazing. Being unstable.

Yes, she is not unstable. Well thank God for middle school. Right? Right? Thank God. So let's dig into that a little bit. I mean, you know, you're free to give the level of detail your comfortable way, by the way. We're not that we're not like a, you know. A therapy session?

Well, I was going to say tabloid article. We're closer to a therapy session, but it's, you know, it's up to you how far you want to go. But like, if seventh grade was the hardest year, is there, I mean, is there an event that made it that? or was it just the coming to terms with, like, you know, the world you're growing into? Well, I think suddenly you start to become, or I started to become a bit older, more of a woman. And then suddenly I had, like, sexual desire, a lot of attention, which at the time, you're just kind of laughing off and feel really uncomfortable with and so much so ashamed of. And you don't realize. Like, when I look back at middle school, I'm like, oh, I was being sexually harassed.

Pretty much on a daily basis by really terrible boys. It's like I can extend them grace because of that age and that time and society. So it's not like I harbor any kind of ill will towards them, but I think it did quite a number on me emotionally. But I had, you know, and I had my seventh grade boyfriend. and it was like if we kissed or did anything, the whole school knew. And then suddenly you were like the whore of Ashborough.

Of Ashboro. Right, which in a very Christian town is the last thing you want to be. So it was very scarlet letter-esque. I was going to say, the whore of Ashborough sounds like a really good play. Just for what it's worth. I mean, I don't know if you're thinking about. I like that. The whore of Ashborough.

Let's set it in. Hulu. Let's set it in like Puritan times or something. I mean, I imagine I'm not the only one, but you don't have the words for it. And you also, it's like, I didn't do anything about it. You just kind of laugh or keep your head down or lie. Like you just hide, hide, hide. I did a lot of hiding in middle school. Which again, I think is why I found so much comfort in the theater, because suddenly you were allowed to be loud or crazy or silly or sexual. You were allowed to be those things in an expressive way that I clearly very wasn't allowed in my mind and somewhat from society to express in my real life.

Right. And I still suffer from that today. That's what I mean. It's like that kind of stuff stays with you. That kind of like public shaming stays with you. Yeah. I actually, you know, I'm recalling that we Did we talk about this? I think we talked about this on set because this was before anybody knew the show was going to be like, you know, some giant strange hit. We were making a show about a

murderer. Like, and, you know, again, spoiler, he kills her at the end. And so, you know, you and I were more than anybody grappling with this, like, what is the story that we're bringing to life here? Yeah. And yeah, I remember you talking about this specifically, like

the shame, the sort of sexual shame that felt like it was just sort of pervasive and impressed upon you in middle school. And I became, because of that shame, I became super Christian. So I already had, like, grown up in, like, a Christian home and was already, like, participating in church. But because I was like, oh, I never want to feel this kind of shame or judgment again, I'm going to be the best Christian there is.

That's doubling down on the shame. Yes, I know, exactly. Yeah, so I did that all through high school. Wow, all right. And what's your relationship to faith or to Christianity now? Well, in so many ways I'm really grateful for it because it also gave me, even though there is a lot of judgment involved in it, my particular friend group was really lovely.

And it gave me a really strong core of friends that I actually didn't really have. have in middle school other than in my youth group. I didn't have it at school. All my, like, youth group friends went to the South Ashboro High, and I went to North Ashboro. And so I was thinking, it was like, man, I really didn't have any good, good friends in middle school proper. So in a lot of ways, I'm very grateful for my faith. And in some ways, I, like, credit my faith to any kind of success I've had in this particular industry because it's so like hard on the psyche and the heart. But faith, like that kind of faith foundation I think really helps me just believe that everything's going to be okay and kind of keeps me from hitting any kind of rock bottom.

But I wouldn't, like I wouldn't ascribe the term Christian to me now. mostly because for me it's not necessarily useful, and there's enough stuff there that doesn't work for me that isn't, to me, like, a loving way of living. So it's, in a way, I feel like I've taken all the good things, and I've tried to treasure that and hold on to it, but I'm very triggered. If I go into a church, I can be very easily triggered. and there's really like only one church in New York City where I feel like this preacher and I are on the same page. That's really interesting. Elizabeth, I have a question about your parents

and my understanding is that you have married a Baha'i, who's also Persian, which is, I would think, a little bit unexpected for like a Southern girl from Ashborough who grew up quite Christian. And I just wanted to know... Well, it's really Penn's fault that happened. We want to blame anyone it's Penn. How did your family really?

receive that and growing up is that something you could have pictured marrying someone outside the church you know what's interesting is in middle school I was in like purity class and a big part of it was oh you have to marry someone equally yoked this is always the term

I don't know if they use that term in the Baha'i that has something to do with a mule and another mule being yoked together to pull the wagon to me that sounds like what you're saying in a gym like I'm in yote right now that's what that sounds like to me No, it's...

Equally you. I believe it's a verse. It's a verse in the Bible, I guess, take it as you will. But I think it's meant to be, yeah, like you kind of move as one. Okay, yeah. Which is a beautiful sentiment in its essence.

It is a beautiful sentiment. Yes, and I was very much on that path. I had a very handsome boyfriend in middle school. And he moved away. This was like in the eighth grade. But I was the cheerleader, and he was a basketball player on the other team. Wow.

And, yeah, I felt like, oh, this is as good as it's going to get. I was like, this is the best. Yeah, and we were both, like, you know, into Christian music. And the Christian element was really the bond. Now, I'm sure if we were hanging out today, there'd be all kinds of ways in which we don't get along. I don't know. Well, I don't know. Sitting.

I don't know. Because I do feel, in a lot of ways, for my friends from that time, I've become a bit of of a black sheep. Yeah, sure. People deal with those things, you know, in different ways. And I do feel like some people double down and was like, yes, this is the life for me. And I was like, actually, I think I need to go find my own life in my own way. My parents are actually very liberal-minded, shockingly so for, again, for their town and their upbringing. And they, they didn't blink twice. My parents are kind of, you know, you come to the, you know, you come to the town and their upbringing. And they, they're them with anything and they're the kind of people that are like oh we're there if it works and we're

there if it doesn't they they've always you know encouraged my sister and i have an older sister to be independent and you know make our make our own way and make our own life and and and even though I felt enormous amount of pressure to be like the perfect Christian girl I don't actually think that came from my parents. But I will say my parents in some ways feel like the perfect Christian family because they're incredibly patient, incredibly giving, and incredibly present in their community in that way, and somehow managed to have very different politics than their whole community.

So I don't know how they do that. But I know my sister and I, we were both, we hate to disappoint, and we really hate to disappoint them. I think my mom thought I would never get married. Really? I was a part of her. It was like, yeah, I think she thought. And because at some point my life, again, I rebelled against that whole idea,

which was I thought I would be married to someone at like 20 or 21, something crazy. Sounds like you were like 16. No. I mean, in middle school. Well, it's, again, because women, I don't know for men, but I know for young women were brought up to prioritize that or to at least believe

that's going to be our way in life and it is a very defining choice it does define your life in a big way but I know in that obviously I also dreamt of becoming an actress and I didn't realize that those two things might not coincide so they were

my family's been very open to the Baha'i faith and my mom did all this research and it's a very similar upbringing. Like he's going to like, what's it called, Boch Bahai school and I'm going to like summer church camp. It's very similar. Right.

And I think that's kind of like I think that actually brought us together because we were both people who had this faith-based upbringing who are now in our adult lives kind of making it our own and prioritizing what's right for us and what's good for us. Elizabeth, can you tell us a little bit more about this eighth grade relationship that you had, like your first love, it sounds like. Should we name names? He knows who he is. His name was Andrew.

And I'm telling you he was the hottest guy in middle school. I swear, I had girls come up to me. And I was not the hottest girl, but I thought I was. But I had phrases. Exactly. And he, I was actually doing a play, like a community. children's play and he came to see the play twice. Wow. And he was like a friend of one of the guys in the play and that's how we met.

This sounds like you're older again because everything this year... Well, I think I bloomed a little early. That's why. No, because I mean like the dynamic, like he came twice. Like what, his mom dropped him off? I mean, like twice. I guess what I'm saying is, you know, the truth is in middle school, especially if you live in Ashborough. It's not like you live in New York City. We can walk everywhere. There's a level of agency you don't have. You know, but then you're, but then you feel as you're living this mature life. So, so, so the picture you just painted almost like you could be in your early 20s, like, you're in the play and this guy came by twice.

He saw the show twice. He like spent the money on the, no, this man's mother is giving him the everything. Including cookies in his lunchbox. That's even more of a big deal, honestly. And so I guess I'm just curious like, like, uh, like, uh, his mom took us on all our dates. Yeah, right. Well, she would have had to. Which included, like, walking around the neighborhood or walking around.

I do that now. The mall. Oh my gosh, the mall. What a spot. Yeah. I think it continues to be a spot now. Really? I think so from the middle schoolers.

My niece is 14. Oh, wow. And I think it can, and when I look at what's amazing, because for this, I was looking for pictures of me in middle school. Sixth grade to eighth grade is, it's like I look like a baby to not an adult, but very. The transformation is. growth that happens in that short amount of time is I think a part of the reason why it can be so painful. Although my niece seems totally fine. And I'm sure I seem totally fine too.

Exactly. You've got to talk to your niece, Elizabeth. I know. Elizabeth, we just have one more middle school question that we ask every guest, which is, do you have an embarrassing story? A lot of the stories we get deal with embarrassing moments, so we think it's like a fun thing to hear from our guests if you have one. The first one that comes to mind, of course, is a period story. Oh, yeah. Feel free.

We love a good periods. Okay. So I'm not saying. I just some people you whispered about it. Yeah. I had had my period before. The first time it happened, I was in school gym. And sweet Diana gave me her jacket to tie around my waist.

Which is, yeah, so I love her. But that's not the embarrassing story. The embarrassing story is I wore a khaki skirt to school. We were doing like end. grade testing so it was like two or three hours sitting in one desk and I kind of like went to stand up

and I was like wet and I was like oh no something's wrong and my sweet teacher Miss Shoemaker who also went to my church thank God I like called her over and I was like I have a problem it's gone terribly wrong and it was like the most

massive bloodstain sorry guys yeah on a khaki skirt is really bad. So what did you do though? She also gave me her jacket to tie around my waist. We had to call my mom. My mom left work, went to

the house, got me a jean skirt and I came back and I changed at school. I like waited in the office and then when I came out and I was like going finishing the rest of the school day, everyone was like oh my gosh they made you change your skirt. It was not that short.

And that was and that's what I told everyone. I was like yeah, it was just too, because there was the whole, like, it had to be past your fingertips rule. And then they were like, Elizabeth's a whore. She wore a scarf, that's too short. That's how it all started. The war lore continued.

It continued. I feel like that was probably the most embarrassing. Because just anyone... Yeah, that's rough. Having to involve, like now, of course, I'll ask a stranger for a tampon, no problem. But at that time, you're like, this is...

It could not. I mean, thank God I didn't stand up and everyone saw, but thank you, Miss Shoemaker. Yeah, what would we do? Like, if we're having an app to just track your period, like, it would just surprise you. Yes, exactly. I was, I was free balling it for a long time there. Not intentionally. Whatever you want to call it. Interesting use of the colloquial term. Yeah. It tracks. Stick around. We'll be right back. I used to dread switching banks, so many hidden fees and confusing rules, then I found Chime, and it actually makes managing money simple, stress-free, and fee-free. Chime is smarter,

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That's the plan. You guys first met on the side of you. Can you tell us about that experience? So Penn and I did a chemistry read here in New York, but then I had to go, like, convince the big boys in L.A. After that? You're kidding. And I tested against another girl. You're kidding.

Yeah. Which I always feel, I hate it when they do that. They've done it to me. They've done it to other actresses that I know where we have. where we have to test against each other but they're kind of just using the other one to prove their point. And to make sure they can pay you as little as possible.

Maybe. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's one of the reasons, trust me. It's like number three. Yeah, they're like, this one is good, but this one's going to be cheaper. Yeah, but I thought we had pretty good chemistry. Yeah, well, I mean, you got it.

Yeah. And then, you know, you played Beck, which Joe and Beck is the iconic Like the glass box special. It was really sweet as the security guard downstairs in this building. He loves us and he loves us together. Oh, did he say that? Beck and Joe.

He ships you. That's true. Yeah. And he also, he was like, your character, yours was the sweetest. And I was like, really? I think that's true. That's true. No, I think that's definitely true.

But at the time, but before the other seasons, I feel like Beck was pretty highly. vilified because people are like, oh my gosh, how could you cheat on him? Well, that's just the magnification of the things you were talking about in your sort of small town. Absolutely. And it's still absolutely like the shame thrown at women. Guys, how much more does Joe have to do for anybody to stop loving this man? It's just, it's just, don't answer the question. Did you just try to be a little less attractive?

I think that would happen. Break your nose or something. I am doing what I can. It is pretty clear. If you could just have maybe, you know, like, sleep less. What else could you do? You are going a little gray, but it looks good. Very much.

Yeah, this is a thing. It's an injustice. It's an injustice. Elizabeth, when you guys were doing the press tour for the first season of you, you talked a lot about, like, the toxic tropes of love and how the show is trying to kind of show you their logical conclusion. And I had, like, two questions thinking about that. First of all, I thought you both spoke about it really eloquently. I was rewatching and I was really impressed with how you guys handled that.

That press around a show that I think could have gotten you guys canceled in the wake of me too. So I think the way you handled. Yeah, you're right though. You're right. Part of it had to do with like the thoughtfulness of you two is like human beings. Thank you. So I had two questions that sort of came to mind. One is like I would love to hear from both of you a toxic trope about love that is still present

that you think like hasn't gotten debunked but is toxic. Yeah. if anything comes to mind. And then the other is, in one of the press stores, Elizabeth, I don't know if you remember, but you talked about friendships becoming too obsessive and controlling and toxic in that way. And I was just curious if you could share more about that as well. I think there are so many love tropes that are still very, and I don't know if anyone ever is like digging around TikTok. I don't know.

I don't do it very frequently. But every time I do, for some reason, something about my algorithm, it's like, how to seduce a man? No one. Really? You need to be on there more. It's like I don't even use you. Why? I know.

Yeah. Like I don't participate in any way. It's defaulting. Yeah. That's just the default. And I think there is there, I mean, there are just so many, like, toxic elements about love. And I do think that one of them is that, like, once it's, it's, there is this kind of, like, trapping, obsessive, like now you're stuck in this element.

Like, if you really love me, like, you wouldn't step out. You wouldn't cheat. If you really love me, you would stay with me forever. And I think those ideas are not useful in the human experience. From my, like, limited time is, like, how can we be in love and give love by giving someone freedom to be every part of themselves inside of the context of this relationship. That's what I'm looking for.

That's what Beck was looking for that she could not get. She got a lot of intimacy and a lot of care from Joe, but she wasn't really allowed to be to be all parts of herself. I disagree. Really? I'm kidding. I think, you know, he supported her in every way that was. No, that's of course not sure.

I actually think what you just said is interesting because for what I was hearing, I mean, maybe this is, you tell me if this is right, but I feel like the first perspective, which was if you wouldn't step out if you really loved me, it was love from like a deficit or scarcity perspective. It's a little bit like all the things you can't do, as opposed to the things that you can do now that you're in a relationship. And I think that's actually sort of a world over there. Or that's, when we talk about toxic tropes, like, to me, I feel like, well, there's two things I'm thinking of.

One is the way people increasingly view relationships is this a form of bondage. Yeah. Marriage especially. Yeah. Which, although I completely understand, because it's been wielded especially against women, in a way that is that. So, well, has been that and can easily fall into that. Right. You're not very intentional.

That's so true. I'm glad you said that because if you're not intentional, it does default. Kind of like in anything. Anything that is systemic, this includes race, gender, class, everything. If you aren't intentionally working towards the new progressive way, then it will default, even though you are not that way yourself or your partner, it will default into that if you don't put in the work. The system is built that way.

Yeah, exactly. The relationship is built that way. Yeah, and so that is a really interesting point that you highlight. And for that reason, because of that work, this is the trope that I think is the most toxic, that love just happens, that there's no work. And also, then there's also this weird, the way people talk about the work is like, it's not really, I don't like that word, work, it is an act,

it's a discipline, it's a practice, it's a life, it's an activity, it's many things, it doesn't just visit you magically. Because what I think we are in the face of love is exceedingly passive. We believe that it's a magic feeling that visits you, and then we do virtually nothing to cultivate it. In fact, what we do is we sort of behave in a way that, exhausts all of the potential that it has because you just sort of run on magical fuel

and no kind of structure or restrained or patience or anything and then the feelings run out because it's because the beginning of love is not the same thing as you know a lasting relationship and then we wonder why the first time we start to feel bad we're like

I'm falling out of love it's like no you're just you're playing on the ground you're just like incredibly passive Before you think you have enough time for this to pass or something, but it's, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's kind of what I meant, like, because when people don't feel like they're allowed to be their full selves, or they still carry any kind of shame from middle school or beyond, you don't communicate. You don't, you don't say, like, hey, actually, that this doesn't work for me, this agreement that we have that we've always had. like I at least in my relationship we're kind of constantly having to reinvent the wheel because there's so much change in growth I mean even for me from like 25 to 30 yeah and so like

the like I think that's a part of the work is like being honest with yourself and then being able to be honest with your partner but it takes breaking out of those social norms it takes being like oh no I don't want to be the thing that I thought I was supposed to be or like I don't want to be like I don't want to practice love in the way that I've, that I see it on TV. That's actually not enough for me or it doesn't feel good for me. But it's hard because we're so brainwashed. Just watch a lot of TV. Yeah, we're so brainwashed to think, you know, I'll be watching Bridgeton or something and I'll be like, oh, yeah, that looks good. Yeah. You know, like passion. Costumes. Like, and, and, and, but then if you think about it, you're like, oh, but these women have no rights. They have no choices. They

to get married, like, thank God he's a Duke, but what if he wasn't? You know what I mean? And so it's, it's like very easy to get caught up in all those, like, toxic ideas of what it should be. Yeah. According to religion, according to politics, society, whatever. Well, I think I have one, but Nava, I'm curious if you have one. Well, I actually just have a response to Penn's. I think that answer like for me highlights how prevalent the media isn't distorting our understanding of romantic love because if you think about any other kind of love like if I love a plant I have to figure out what kind of soil this plant needs and how much exposure to sunlight and how often I need to water it and if I don't do that this plant will die if I have a child it's not going to figure itself out I have to nurture

and tend to so why in a romantic relationship don't you also need to learn about your partner and the conditions that allow you to like nurture that relationship the best it doesn't just like, it's not just like an explosion and a fire that keeps going forever, but I think that's one of the images that we get. So we don't, so I think that's the kind of work that it is, just like caring for a plant, caring for an animal, caring for your child, you care for your partner, you care for each other. You learn about that like institution together. So yeah, something about Penn's answer just like helped highlight for me how the media, particularly around romantic love, really distorts something about it. Your answer helps me understand why my plants

keep dying. As long as your child's alive Great success Oh wait a second, wait a second, wait a second He hasn't eaten today Oh, I gotta go What's yours, Sophie? There's several

But I think the one that comes up for me a lot Is like you have to love yourself Before you can love anyone else I just don't think that's true I think we naturally love And I think you learn about yourself In relationship to other people So

Yeah, they're a mirror Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you had to... And who doesn't want to just look into a mirror. Well, they mirror back something you might need to hear. I don't know what you mean. We have the next question here. Let's moving on.

What was the second question? Oh, yeah. So in one of your press stories, you were like, it's not just romantic love that can become too obsessive. It's friendships. But then they didn't ask you a follow-up, and I really wanted to know the follow-up. Like, what were you referring to about friendships

that become too controlling or too obsessive? Yeah, well, I think, and I experienced this a little in middle school, like, nobody has an identity. And so you kind of cling to one another's identity. And, you know, you all dye your hair blonde. You all wear the same clothes. You all kind of, like, subscribe to the same way of being. And then suddenly you can become very dependent on one another. I think I had, you know, I had a friend, and I think I said one time,

I was like, oh, well, we might not go to the same college. And that was devastating for her. And that's when I realized it was like, oh, I'm in a, I'm very much in a, like, a deeply connected relationship, but that doesn't have room. It doesn't have space and room to be your own. It's kind of like, we were always together. So we were, it's like, and I think I'm sure in the context of the show, I was referring to Peach and Beck. Oh, yeah.

Again, there's this. kind of codependent element. But it all comes, I mean, for me, as you can tell, I'm very just interested in being my own person and knowing my own person and not having it dictated by others. Again, I think that probably stems from middle school where it was so dictated by all these other elements in my life, where now I'm like, wait, no, I really want to make sure this is how I want to behave or what I believe in. And it's the same in all my relationships, friendships and all.

And the best friendships are the ones where, again, you can just like the best loves. They are like great loves in and of themselves, friends, where you're like, oh, I can be every part of myself with you. The messy, the toxic pieces that I'm working on or, I mean, hopefully you're working on. Yeah. And then all the goodness too. It's just made you think of how we sexualize love so intensely. You know, and the truth is it's so much so that I don't even, it's hard to talk about the water when you're a fish in it,

and it's just the water we're in. I think particularly as a man, it's like love is so highly sexualized. You know, that's why boys have trouble expressing themselves to each other. That's why they're awful in middle school. Right, that's why you had. I mean, you know, you said you extend grace to those boys, And I think, I mean, it's gracious that you say that and just for a moment, like, taking you at your word

and just exploring what that means. Like, those boys were already told that you can't essentially be yourself an express love for another boy, basically. Which shouldn't be... Which they only do in sports. Right. I'm like, thank God for sports in some ways.

I feel like sports is theater for the masses. It's what theater does for me, which gives me catharsis, and feeling and freedom. I think sports gives that to everyone else who watch sports. Forgive me, I don't. Not really.

But you can see it. That's interesting. It allows people to express themselves in this huge way. Yeah, I mean, I do think that it is largely men, though, that are in need, because you're saying to people, and I think it is really,

it is so specifically men. Yeah, they're allowed to touch. They're allowed to express love for one another because they have this shared love. To sing together. Yeah. To cry. Yeah, they literally will see.

Sing and cry and hold each other. Men can't... I mean, really, that's like... The arena of sports is where you can do that, and it's considered totally fine. But then, of course, singing and crying and holding each other, those three things are very... They're really outside of an arena.

They're not... In a living room. Yeah. Yeah. It's sad. Well, hopefully that's changing. Sure. You work on it.

I can't do it. For the men, I can't do anything as of right now. Right. And we'll be right back. Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate. And relationship classes, let's fix that. I'm Shan, an A-Sex certified sex educator with a master's in psych. And on my podcast, Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind-blowing as making it.

Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story. Then we uncover the lesson for all of us. Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemieux. Linata Media on YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast. I wonder, just to bring it back a little bit to you for a second, Elizabeth, what was your favorite scene to film with Penn, if you think back on that first season? I want to say, you know, like for the week I was like in the cage,

even though that seems like a weird thing to enjoy. No, I get what you mean because it's like, it's intense. It's intense, but you can kind of just like live in that intensity. I would just stay in the cage and I would just stay in the cage. and I would just lay down and people would work around me and it's because it was kind of like

again there's something about the cage that feels theater-esque because it's dark around it but then the lights are on on the cage um yeah I

I enjoy I mean I enjoyed every scene we did the great thing about that show it was like I was doing like 10 different movies in one because it would be like a romantic comedy at one point and then a thriller at another. I mean, it was just like every,

we experienced every, or Beck certainly did, like, every kind of journey because she was unaware of the through line, of the stalking bit. I also like the scene where I run into him, Beck runs into Joe with his new girlfriend.

There's something so, like that feeling, I don't know if anyone's ever felt that feeling where you're like, oh, my ex is married now or you bump into them and you're like, and of course, Beck and Joe, they still had more

of a story to go. I mean, not that much more. Not that much more. A couple episodes. One or two, maybe. Her end was nigh. But I thought that there's just something, it just tells you a lot about Beck

because she really was like seeking kind of like validation from outward sources which yes what do you think well I was just curious like how much do you feel like you've lived now with Beck beyond what you had to portray because now the show has gone on and you know I mean you did return in season

two for a brief moment and you know Beck will always be be sort of I don't know the iconic the way we learn about Joe. Yeah, right. That's what I used to call her. She's the girl. I call her the one who got away.

That's very Joe of you. You've been hanging out in his mind for too long. Like, how do you feel like you've lived, is there a legacy of Beck that you feel like you live with? Do you feel like you have to, do you feel like you get a lot of people who, you know, come up to you and you sort of talk about it with them? You know what I mean?

Like, is it something that you feel? like you've lived with and thought about a lot more? In a lot of ways, do you just move on? In a lot of ways, I just move on. It would make sense. But it's not to say that, you know, when I get recognized, that's the show. Yeah, well, I think that's why I asked. And I think out of all the characters I've played, I look the most like her on my day-to-day basis.

I also live in New York. Okay. Yeah, you're in the environment. Yeah, I kind of lived her life without the stalking thing. Thank God. And without the horrible death. But I, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, so it's really only when I get recognized where it's like, oh, you're that girl. Or most of the time it's like, you look so much like that girl from that show.

Really? Yeah. And I'll be like, thank you so much. I'm like, yeah, she's really pretty. That's what I say in my head, I don't, I don't. Because I've discovered, I don't know how you handle it, Penn. But everyone probably knows that you're definitely the person. At this point, it's a very, yeah.

It's pretty dead. There's like nobody who's kind of, I feel like everyone thinks I look like a friend of theirs. Yeah, that used to happen a lot. Yeah, it doesn't happen anymore. But you're just, People are so excited when they figure out it's you that most of the time I'm just like, yeah, it's me. It's so, I don't know, it's like there's no good way to handle that. No, there's not really no.

You guys want to hear an embarrassing story. Yes, always. Speaking of being recognized, I was in Savannah on vacation and the waiter comes up and he's like, gosh, you look so familiar. And I was like, oh, really? That's, that's nice. And he's like, yeah, yeah. You work at the bar down the street And I was like, no, I don't And then I said for the first time

I don't normally do this I was like, you might know me from TV There's no good way There's like no humble way There's no good way But I thought oh I'll just take a Like odds are he recognizes me And he was like oh really what show

I just like named a couple of things Going through the list Yeah it's like giving him my resume How about this one? And then he comes back and he's like, he's like, oh, I Googles you. But no, I haven't seen any of your shows. You just really look like that girl from the bar. And I, I, I, my husband, he was just like, that's the worst that's ever gone.

And he was like, you cannot do that again. You can't be like, oh, you might know me from TV. But I was like, it's so exciting for them when they think that they've met anyways. There's no good way to handle it. So now I don't say anything. I'm just like, oh, yeah, thank you. Oh, that's very charming. It's really embarrassing.

It's not a normal experience. That's Beck's legacy. She's like, are you the girl that died? Are you the girl in the box? Yeah. Beck, I have a final you question for you. Elizabeth. Elizabeth.

I'd like to say I did that on purpose, but in your opinion, Give us your hottest, hottest take. What should happen to Joe when the series ends? Death. Who should do it? Death by a thousand cubs. Yes. I'm thinking like a gang of women.

Oh my gosh, like Handmaid's Tale. And then I'm thinking that a woman should become the next Joe. That's real empowerment. I know that that's not politically correct, but that satisfies some deep anger that's also not allowed to be out in the world. because I'm a nice girl. You just said something that's kind of like, that's really complex,

where you're wanting to give a voice to this aspect of, like, the feminine that has been so oppressed historically and unable to... Yeah, like a voice that's been silenced, right? Which then creates, of course, another bad. Well, a righteous feeling of anger,

which, you know, anger is not just all bad. that anger is a response to a certain kind of stimulus. And it's like anger can be a momentary tool or it can become a chronic. It's informative, hopefully. Sure, yeah, at its best, it's informative. And then you move through it. And hopefully there's an environment where you can process it and heal. So, but obviously, it's not like women or just all of humanity has been able to do that, right?

So, yeah. So in a way, you were just speaking to like this really complex thing at once that it would It's what you want, like the feeling of what you want, but then knowing that that's technically in a way that's not Beck, like, experiencing retribution. It's almost like whoever's doing that being brought down to his level, you know. Yes, absolutely. I agree with you.

But I think you're dead on. I have some kind of, like, in my mind, like the perfect movie is like a, group of women battling men and winning or like the beginning of time starting over and let's see what happens

when a woman's in charge and it's not to say that I think that's the best thing for humanity I certainly do not think it's the best thing for humanity

but it's what you want it's what and so that's that's where I'm at in my in your glass box of emotion yeah yeah

I think Paco should come back in the final season, have like an episode arc, and then I think Paco should kill him. Oh, wow. I think that's how the series should resolve. You know, I don't want to burst your bubble, but I even suggested that to the writers years ago.

Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah, well, because when I didn't know Paco was coming back, I was like, Paco's got to kill Joe. Wait. When you didn't know Paco said that? Oh, sorry, no. I said it the wrong way.

That's actually not a spoiler. When I thought Paco was coming back, Back in seasons one and two when I thought Paco might come back I was just like, oh, Paco totally should go to Joe. Yeah. He's got to make up for

killing back essentially. Yeah, but does Paco know that he's it would have to be like this whole journey of how he knows he's responsible for the death of someone in order to feel like a murderous need. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, it might be

interesting. Maybe interesting. But it's not real. Exactly, it's not real, so that's why maybe the women should kill. Because in the world, that's not going to happen. You know what I mean? In the world, the women are being killed. And I think that's going to continue on.

Men are going to continue. Like, hopefully slowly but surely changing. But I think ultimately that's still the way in many places and still such an issue. that I think we could stand to have a little severity on the others. In our entertainment. Yeah. I think that's the... I can be dead wrong, though.

So ask me in another 10 years. Sure, yeah. Let's go back to you at 12. If you had a time machine, you could step into it and talk to yourself. What would you say? It's really simple. I think I would just say, like, you are all good. Like, every part of you is good and worthy. I, because of my upbringing, because of this kind of like good, bad, like, this is evil, this is wrong, this is right. And if you don't behave in a right way, then suddenly my default is like, oh, you're a bad person, or this is bad, or this piece of you is bad. And I think that's really not serving me. hasn't served me throughout life and I think that's what I'd say I'd be like you're allowed you're allowed to have a favorite color you're allowed to disagree you're allowed to be loud

um like you're allowed to step outside of the rules and I think just kind of that permission even if you eventually come back I think every kind of human needs to like feel like they can search in that way, hopefully in a way that isn't detrimental. But I think for me, I was so severe the opposite way.

It's like I had to be like the most righteous version of the human experience that there was a lot of like self-flagellation going on. So I think that's what I would say. Can you give us a little insight? What is the right favorite color? Yeah. Well, it just means, and when I say that, and it goes to show like the mindset I was in, and especially at that time, it's like I didn't trust that my opinion was worthwhile.

Yeah. Like, I needed to be a quiet, good girl in every area. And so it's a really simplified version way of saying it, but it's... No, it's totally valid on his course making a joke. I mean, I really get that. But it's green, actually. It's great. Okay, listen, we're going to have to have an episode two.

It's definitely not green. What? The earth is mostly green. Is it? Or is it blue? Oceans cover the... Green is kind of greenish blue. Green represents light.

I think, I mean, they're both. You know, you're on the right track. Sky, ocean? Have you already answered this question, pen? The right color? No. What would you tell your 12-year-old? He has.

Yeah, I think I've done it, yeah. You've done it many times. Well, no, and for me, it's like, at this point, I don't feel like I would say anything. I would want to show something, like, demonstrate something more through action. I don't know what that is. Yeah, like, you have to learn these lessons the hard way, unfortunately. Yeah, it's true. I would want to be a mentor over time.

That's what I would rather do. It's like to be there for him all the time. I couldn't just say anything at once. Yeah. I can't think of a single thing that would land, really, truly. I mean, of course, all the things work, but that's what I would just want to be there. I'm going to be my own guardian angel. Well, in a way, you can do that now.

Yeah, that's what therapy is. Yeah, you're like constantly having a conversation with your 12-year-old self, or your 8-year-old, whatever self it is, saying like, oh, actually, no, I've got you. Or we're going to get through this together. And that, dear listener, is what we're going to do together in season two. You stick around. And we'll be right back.

XO, XO. Whoa. I think middle school is such like an important topic of conversation. So I really love that you guys are opening that up because... Bravely. I really do think everything ties back to it. Yeah. It's such a shitty hard time in life.

And it shouldn't be. Yeah. Today's listener submitted middle school story is called Alskirt off. For the final time this season, take it away, Penn. The year was 2014, the country, England, the occasion lunch, the incident tragedy. It all started like any other normal day in middle school. My friends and I were goofing off in the cafeteria. Just, you know, we're joking around.

We're having a great time. And one of my friends thought it would be funny to push me, you know, just a fun, little, you know, friendly show. And so I fell backwards, tripped on someone's backpack, and landed on a random boy's lap in the cafeteria in front of everyone. And now we could, let's call this boy Bobby. So you think that's the end? Maybe, do you? You just, you know, oh, Poppy fell on top of Bobby in front of all their friends and mates.

What a good one. Well, let me tell you, dear reader, it doesn't. And there, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, no. No, not only did I fall on random prepubescent Bobby's lap. I slid down his legs and onto his feet. You better get comfortable because this story is still not over.

You see that fateful day that my lovely friend decided to gently shove me and I just so happened to trip backwards over a backpack and land on prepubescent Bobby's lap in the cafeteria and slide down his legs onto his feet in front of all of our mates. This is also the day that I wore a skirt to school, a skirt that decided it would not be accompanying me for the entire. entire journey in the cafeteria that day. That's right, my skirt rode up my bum onto my belly and got stuck on Bobby's lap, meaning that I slid down Bobby's legs in the school cafeteria in front of all of our mates in my underwear. Poor, sweet, unprepared little prepubescent Bobby was so shocked

he couldn't even bring himself to form words. Nothing, no, not a sound. Escaped Bobby's lips. His entire friend group stopped dead in their tracks and stared at me. And what did I do? I squeaked out. I mean, I squeaked out an apology. I apologized to them. To who? To the room? To myself? I don't know, but I retrieved my skirt. And I ran off, as one does. You know the best part of this story is that Bobby and I were in several classes together? Bobby never looked at me in the eye again. Pod Crushed is hosted by Penn Badgeley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer, editor and composer, is

David Ansari. Our secondary editor is Sharaff and Twistle. This podcast is a 9th mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcreshed. You can find us on Stitcher, the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. That is it. That's it. Season

one of Podcreshed is done. You can stay up to date with our season two plans on our social media at Podcreshed. And as always, you can follow us individually. at Penn Badgley, at Navajo with three ends, and at Scrabbled by Sophie. And from the bottom of our hearts, truly, truly, like the very bottom, we want to thank you for listening to the show, for sending us your middle school stories,

commenting, following. It's been amazing to hear from all of you, and we are so grateful for your support from day one. Okay, that's all for now. T2L. Goodbye. Guys, people tweet us a lot and ask if Penn is running the podcast account, and I want to just reveal for once and for all, yes, it's Penn. It's all the social. Penn is messaging you all the heart emojis.

That's Penn. He replies to every DM. It's always been Penn. That's the big secret. I am Gossip Girl. Stitcher. Are you team Batman or Spider-Man? Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos?

Smash Boom Best will help settle those debates and so many more. Every episode we take. take two cool things, smash them together, and we see which one is best. Debaters use facts, jokes, stories, and more to argue for their side, and it's all judged by a teenager. Because who is better at judging than a teen? It's fun.

It's weirdly informative. It's smash boom best. Get it wherever you get your podcasts.