Podcrushed - [Rerun] Kelly Clarkson

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

[Original air date: July 5, 2023] Kelly Clarkson, the award-winning singer, songwriter, and television personality, brings her buoyant spirit to the pod for a wide-ranging chat about everything from winning the very first season of American Idol, to living out of her car after her apartment burned down, to the moment she had as a middle schooler when she realized she could sing. (Like, SING sing).   🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I was not allowed ironically enough to listen to secular music or perform it for a minute. Until how old? I think that was just a Unitali moved out. Okay. Oh, wow. And then I was like, turns out I'm going to sing secular music. Kelly, did you sneak it? Like, did you ever listen to secular music?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either, right? Like Red Light Special TLC, that creep record? Love that song. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Sophie. And I'm Nava, and I think we would have been your middle school best. Sing screaming Kelly Clarkson songs into our hairbrushes all night long. What is your favorite Kelly Clarkson song? I have to go old school. I have to say, since you've been gone. Because it just reminds me in middle school. How about you, Penn?

Oh, love so soft. Love so soft. Why is that your favorite? Because it's got the deepest groove, maybe? No, it's a, yeah, I don't know. It's always stood out to me. I just like it. If you try it, got your hook

My favorite song is off her new album That hopefully you're all streaming And it's called Magic And we got a preview of the album And I streamed it like 30 times And every time I wanted to stream it I had to log back into this thing So it took effort for me to listen to it that many times

But absolutely love it Yeah, I'm going to listen to the song again It's so good Does she know? Does she know I'm going to tell her today What we've done for her? We're making her career

So you already know who it is We got Kelly Clarkson today, guys Singer, songwriter, television personality Her career highlight real is just Is staggering She's the first ever winner of American Idol Which by the way I forgot I had kind of filed it away as like

Oh, it's one of the early seasons But she is the First winner of American Idol She's got 25 million albums sold Three Grammys, three VMAs She's hailed as one of the early seasons, She hailed as one of the greatest pop vocalists of all time. She has her show, the Kelly Clarkson show.

And she's, in four years, she's got five daytime Emmy Awards. Her kindness and generosity of spirit, I think, is what people know her for. It's what we found today. And I just want to say, as a big fan of the voice, that Kelly Clarkson, a judge on the voice, was really the only judge who ever gave Blake Shelton a run for his money. I think statistically she won more times than he did. Wow. That can't be true.

he's the king. I don't know what you're talking about. He's not my king, but he is the king, right? True. We don't have Blake Shelton today. We have Kelly Clarkin. This reminder, you stick around. We'll be right back.

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cindy Lopper on Amazon Music. Cindy may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years she has brought play and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ plus advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now only on Amazon music included with Prime.

You have exceptional hair. Like the beard game, the hair, I'm like. Winning at those games. That's, yes. I was like, that's like exceptional. You know My wife really does not like it at this point Oh really?

Maybe maybe Wait the beard or the longer hair Which one? Because like some women don't like beards Just pen in general And I'm opposite I cannot Like even with my ex

I was like if you shave I don't know that I will actually kiss you Or like makeup Because it He looked so boyish When he yeah And it felt weird For me

So I was like, uh-uh. But some of my friends don't like it because the chafing, like when you're kissing a guy with like a beard or whatever, like some people don't like it. It goes from being of complete lack of effort. Yeah. Like you just let it grow. To then to not look fully dishevelled.

I got to, I have to do enough things like the oil and the trimming that it's more work than I would prefer. It's grooming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am very lazy pen. Like I don't do anything.

When I'm not like, this is a person. Like people did this. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Yeah, like I am very, I don't wear makeup. I don't. That's why people, I feel like in our industry, when you're not working, you're just like, you don't. It's too much all the time. So it's like when you're not, just my face wants to breathe, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. But does it change how you feel going out? I actually noticed I had to go buy something at a mall yesterday and I looked so bad. I just had done nothing. And I heard someone say, Sophie, but they were talking to somebody else. but I was like, oh my God, I hope no one I know is here right now. I'm thinking if you're famous, does that change how you feel about going out in public?

Not for me. I cannot express you how much I don't care. That's amazing. I feel like I do care. I just care about things that I think are important. And I don't know. I feel like he was saying, like, was your job all the time to be like on and done and, you know, I get it, whatever. It's, I don't mind playing dress up.

Like, my team is incredible. Honestly, when they get through, I feel like we should pay them more because it's like, this is Harry Potter level skill. This is not what I look like in Target. So it's like, it's real different. Do you know the framing of this show, like the middle school vibe? Yes. Okay, cool.

Such hard years. Yes. Yeah. Well, they are in some way for everybody. Yeah. Like, the truth is being young is actually, there's something about it that is unique and difficult. Yeah. So when you...

I would never do it again. Well, guess what? You can't. But walk us through. But you know what people are like, oh, I totally go back to college or I totally go back to high school? I'm like, I would never do any of that. Like, no. No.

Yeah. We did get an advanced copy of your record. You have a song where you say, I'm not sure you're going to read it because I want to make sure I get it right. Yeah. Well, you basically say love is a bitch and then you apologize to your mom. Yeah. And I'm 41. Right.

And so clear, so that gives us at least a glimpse of your household growing up. Yeah. I mean, you know, so just just paint a picture of us. of what was it like for you living with your mom? Yeah. Well, it was different. So I didn't just look like there were moments. I mean, I feel like my upbringing involved a lot of different environments,

which is probably why I'm highly adaptable. But I mean, you know, for moments we were alone and it was just us. Then there were my brother and sister lived with us and really little. So I remember parts of that. And then she got remarried. So there's different parts there. So all of that, though, she is very different from me. Like my mother looks at my sister and I, like, we're aliens.

Like, where she's very, like, you know, just more conservative and, like, reserve. Like, she'll give your opinion, trust. But I just mean, once she gets to know you, she's kind of shy. And my sister and I are, like, complete opposites of that. Like, we're not shy at all. It's just your older or younger. She's older, but you'd probably think I'm the older one. Everybody always does.

She's seven and a half years old. It's such a bitch. I'm like, I'm the younger one. But she's awesome, but we actually grew up separately. And my brother. We all grew up very separately. So it was just a very different upbringing, but a lot of it was very religious. And so, you know, definitely you did not curse.

I was not allowed ironically enough to listen to secular music or perform it for a minute. Until how old? I think that was just a unit. Shelly moved out. Oh, okay. Oh, wow. And then I was like, turns out I'm going to sing secular music. Kelly, did you sneak it?

Like, did you ever listen to secular music? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I didn't even know what I was singing either, right? Like Red Light Special TLC, that creep record. Love that. What the hell? Why am I singing that at, like, in junior high?

I was like, that is so inappropriate. My mother had no idea. How did you sneak it? I had a whole stash in my closet that my mother never knew about. Wow. She never went in your closet? Not really. So she trusted you then.

I don't know if it was so much trust, Penn, I think it was just... Well, it would have been unfound. She was like, if you close your door, like to your room, like, you know, she was like, just close your door. Like, I wasn't, like, messy, but I wasn't maybe how she wanted me to... I'm... I like to say creative. I was creative.

But, yeah, no, she kind of let me be. I was pretty independent, very young, so... That's cool. Yeah, but no, I snuck it, yeah. But I was told once I wasn't allowed to see... Like, it was, I'd gone into like a competition. I didn't really even realize how, like, I didn't listen to a lot of secular in front of here. I did every now.

It depended on the year, y'all. It depended on who was married and who, it just depended on a lot of things. But it was very different all the time. So I just kept my thing the same in my closet. Yeah. But, like, she found out I was listening to Jagged Little Bill and was not excited about that. And I still listened to it. Well, naturally, yeah.

Yeah. How old were you then, do you think? Was that like... I was in junior high. So, I don't know, I was probably like seventh, eighth grade when that came out. What songs do you think spoke most to then? Well, that's the thing, too. I kind of really didn't know what I was listening to fully.

I don't think I grasp it, like I can grasp it as a woman at this point. But, you know, it's still that, that hidden track that she had at the very end that was Acapella. Oh, I love that song. That was not a record that I was into, so I don't know what you're talking about. Oh my God! It's literally one of the best selling records of all time. I know, I know.

It's an amazing record. Were you allowed to listen to? I mean, because I still listen to Nirvana. I listen to everything. Yeah. And I also listen to Christian stuff too. Like, I listen to a bunch of stuff. But like, wait, you didn't listen to you?

I don't know anyone. You're the first human. Really? You were the first human I've ever meant that it has not been like, oh my God, that record. Yeah. Yeah, it just wasn't. I mean, look, there's a lot. we all have gaps somewhere.

Like that's just one of the month. I didn't, I'm trying to think. You're a lot younger than me, though. Maybe 30? Not a lot younger than you. I'm 36. Oh, I thought you were 30. Oh, okay, you're 36.

I'm 41. Yeah, so we're basically right there. My wife should have been listening. You missed it, though. You were in elementary. I don't know what you was talking about. But you're young. You actually missed it.

Yeah, I was like, you all missed it. That's why. No, I was into it. I did not miss it. Okay. You're the cool one. Okay, I got you now with. Kelly,

Kelly, I want to hear a little bit more in middle school and I want you to tell us when did you know you were into music in like a special way or when did you realize that that was a talent of yours? Well that's actually pretty interesting because I grew up in church and everyone sings and everyone sings well. I don't know if that's normal for everybody else is upbringing but I feel like I just Christians. No, just Christians. We were just, yeah, the rest y'all were shite. No, I just meant like even in my town like even in our like choral groups. Like I, everybody's always like, oh, you've like such a great voice. I'm like, yeah, I grew up with like a lot of great singers, I feel like. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I didn't feel like I really

stood out until there was like kind of a moment in junior high and I think I was eight, eighth grade maybe. When I just kind of noticed I could hit things that maybe other people couldn't hit and like with more of a belt and because we're all imitators, right, at first, like, of whatever art you're into. I listened to a lot of like big female singers. And even male, like Stephen Tyler was one of my favorite. So I just, I think I figured that out. And other people kind of, it wasn't even I figured it out. Other people kind of said, wow, you're like really good at it. And I was like, what? Okay. Like I didn't, it's like other people almost told me. And then you're like, all right. And then I found out in like high school, I was like, wait, you can make money like really doing that.

Like even, because I didn't ever want to be like who I am now. Like, I didn't ever want to be like the main, my whole thing was I wanted to be a background singer because I love different genres of music. Because honestly, Mama didn't aim that high. So I just, you know what I'm saying? Like, this rarely happens. Like, it's like, you know, it's rarely happens. Statistically, it basically doesn't. Exactly.

You can't expect it. You can't plan for it. It's like, you know, I'm very lucky. And it's a lot of hard work, but also a lot of luck. So, and in all fairness, I actually did want to be a back. Like I love the background parts. I love harmony. I grew up singing harmony. I love that they're more intricate, more challenging parts. I love that they're more interesting. And I wanted to sing with a bunch of different artists. So that was kind of my big goal. You know, and then that went to shite. So it turns out I went the lead route after American Idol. Was that really the turning point? Where you shifted from like, you know, whatever previous vision to? Yeah, my place had burned

So I was working as a background singer in L.A. Right after high school a little bit after I moved out to L.A. And I worked as a background singer, I did a bunch of things. Got paid.

I thought that was incredible learning that, oh my God, you can get paid for doing this and make a living out of this. That's incredible. I didn't want a boring, like cubical jobs. Sorry, cubical job, people.

That's so great for you. It's just not for all of us who are ADHD. And so, I don't know. I think whenever I moved out there, my place burned down, and I lived in my car for a few days, and then I finally had enough money to go back

home to, like, save up money to come back out of here because I don't know if you all have heard, but, like, living in L.A. is very expensive. Yeah. And anyway, so, and I don't have, like, Kelly, can I just interrupt you quickly to ask, what was it like when you're building burned down? I mean, that's just a crazy. Yeah, like, it was, we moved in that day.

What? We moved in and it burned it? Was it an apartment, by the way? The Croft Apartments on Croft Avenue off of Melrose. I don't even know if they're still there if it's different now because if it didn't burn it had smoke and water damage to like everything and I literally left we moved our stuff in because before that

I had just been living on like a mattress basically with this other chick that I barely knew that I moved there with and had one room in a bathroom, no kitchen it was like college like a dorm situation almost in this person's house so we just saved up money to move into this apartment move stuff in our insurance didn't kick in until it was like

the next day or two because like what are the chances, right? Yeah, no, truly. And then went to Chili's to get some to go. Some chips and salsa and came back and they were like, you can't get through here. And we were like, oh, we just need to get to our apartment. And they were like, you can't.

Literally hours within we moved in. Yeah. That's crazy. It was pretty crazy. Yeah. There is footage of me on the side of the street looking like not great. And like, you know, I'd have been moving all day like with a handkerchief. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Because they were like, oh,

we heard you just moved in. Yep. When I heard that story, it made me wonder what is your relationship to fate? Like the fact that that happened and then you, as I understand it, you auditioned for American Idol partly because

I moved to fire. Like literally, I lived on my car for a few days because I had, I was finishing out a job and I had a crunch gym membership and that's where I showered. Jims. And then I just was like, this is going to be too difficult. The roommate that I'd moved out there with, we were very, very different individuals.

So that was already kind of a little hard. And yeah, I just, I was like, all right, I'll just move. I pivot very easily. I think, like, coming back to that childhood stuff, like, I've had to adapt, like, a lot of my life, which I'm actually very grateful for, I'm not complaining. I just mean, I think it helps me in this career, and I think it helps me in life. like just be like all right we got a pivot so um but yeah no i i wasn't even i didn't like cry or anything i just i think it was more hysterical i was like what are the chances of this happening to

someone you just went to chilies i just didn't even take that long to not even go and eat and sit down it was right it was hot in the car yes wow it was hot in your life though yeah yeah i mean maybe everybody made it out i don't think anybody and they never really said like we were kept trying to figure out because we were new. Obviously, we'd been there for hours. I don't even ever remember figuring out how it started or no one wanted to take credit for that number. So, yeah, so it was, it was a really, it was a really weird night. And I'm not going to out this organization, but one of the biggest aid organizations ever turned us away. Like, we had nowhere to go. And like we walked in because they said, oh, if you go to this church, it was like a, like a, you know,

like a gym or something attached to a church or whatever, one of their fellowship halls or something. And they were like, oh, we have too many in here. And it was like, is that a, can you do that? Or is that like what your whole point? So yeah. And my roommate ran off with these randos and we're like, I'm going to go stay with them. And I was like, well, I'm not going to become a date line special. So I'm going to hang out my car. I was like, I'm just going to. And I don't even remember seeing her after that. Have there been other moments in your life when something like seemingly kind of catastrophic happens? and then it leads to something greater? I mean, honestly, I'd say the most catastrophic thing was probably my divorce.

So, yeah, that was pretty horrible. And just, you know, you don't see it coming because you see the struggle, obviously, for years. You try or whatever. But, you know, I think when you're in that, you cannot see anything else in front of you. Like, it's just, it really is all-consuming grief in general. So I think that, that. turned into like all the sudden now I live like I literally live in New York now and I'm done in L.A. and I've never wanted to live in L.A. So it was very beautiful that I got the opportunity to move the show here.

And and now I have this. Yeah, we're starting fifth season in the fall here at 30 Rocks. So my whole life. So something horrible that happened, but now came this beautiful thing. Like I'd been writing something for Broadway. I'd be musical theater kid. Like I'd been doing stuff that like kind of was leading up to this and I didn't know. You know, and so it ended up, it ended up being this really beautiful thing. So, yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. That's amazing. Which you don't see in the moment.

Yeah. And people tell you, oh, it's going to happen. You're like, shut up. Yeah. Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey there. It's Julia Louis Dreyfuss.

I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard-earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91-year-old mom, Judy, to get her take on it all. Wiser than me from Lemonade of Media is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg. And Ezra Levin, you might know us as two of the lead organizers of the No King's protests. We're also the co-founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

And this is What's the Plan? guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro-democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top-voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take right now. Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascist win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the plan is about how we get into the game? What's the plan available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get your podcasts? Subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win. That's the We have a couple questions we ask everyone since we're sort of on the topic.

Do you remember your first love and your first heartbreak? I actually didn't fall in love, like love, love until I was 30. So, like, yeah, I didn't even know that. But that's real. By the way, that's fair. I think that's probably very common. And I hear you. Yeah, I don't know that it's common where I'm from.

I think they pretty much think you're dead if you're single at 30. Sure. But that's not necessarily love. No, totally, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, I didn't really know love until my end. X. But my first big crush, his name

was Matthew Michael Pennwarden. And he was, he worked at the movie theater. My first job was a movie theater and I was like 17 and he was older and he was funny. I really like funny. So, it was cute too. I just mean like

humor is my thing. So I love, I thought he was so adorable. Like I didn't love him, like real love him. But I just mean like, you know, he was my first big, like, huge crush. But I'm like late. I'm like, I feel like like even my daughter like she's she could be boy crazy. Like I'm I was never really boy crazy like I was just like a boy crazy like around 17. Like what happened with that guy? Um, well he was a lot older so that's inappropriate. So and he had a girlfriend and um anyway um so details we left out in the first time. Yeah but but I will say um he ended

It was like, I think like a year later or something, he, he, oh, actually something horrible. I just remember what happened to him. Horrible happened with his ex at that time. And then we ended up, like, we kind of talked for a minute, but then it just wasn't, that's the thing. I think he's great, but it just, when you actually start talking to someone that you've kind of put up on a pedestal, then you're kind of like, I think I built you up differently than I thought you actually were.

You know, I think you do that a lot in your youth as well. or during your marriage sometimes. But I just, yeah, that was, I think, you know, we had a little, like, date thing, but, like, it wasn't like a huge. We never really dated kind of thing. But, like, yeah, I don't, it, I just kind of recognized. I was like, I think I thought you were someone you weren't. Like, you know, it was, I built you up to be somebody that was different that I thought was more for me. But, yeah.

But he was really funny and it was a fun crush. Like, what a beautiful... I love that. I hate whenever people are like, oh, you're too young to actually know it. I'm like, shut up. Let them have their moment. It's such a beautiful, free...

You're not jaded. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will say, though, that is the first time I've ever been crushed, though, too. Because I'm the one who... I'm not old-fashioned. I told him I liked him. And, like, once he was available, I'm not that girl.

But, like, once he was available, I told him I had a crush. And he was like, oh, that's so cute. And I was like, oh, shit. That's not what you want to hear I know I was like oh yeah I'm so cute so I'm gonna go

so that was that was devastating that was yeah that sucked but character growth it'll bring out the funny yeah did you feel like after experiencing a rejection

like that after you were bold enough to tell him how you felt did you continue to do that in your life or what did it kind Did you shy away from doing that again? I'm like incapable of shying away.

Like I just, if I want something, I just pretty much go for it. Even with my ex, like, I made the first move. Like, if I want something, I'll pretty much just tell you. You get crushed sometimes because actually my ex crushed me at first whenever we had that conversation. But it was a little awkward, just the father was my manager. It was just really complicated. But yeah, no, I don't. I don't know, I never, I'm not like that person that like gets beaten down and like doesn't try again.

I will keep trying even when I know there's no way to win. Yeah. Like I'm that person innately. I'm like forever an optimist. So, um, or delusional, whichever way you want to go. But yeah, no, it does crush you though. There's those, I mean, you, that's where a lot of my songwriting and stuff comes from too. Is that like devastation.

You're like, ooh. But I also think what a wonderful thing. To experience, like if you're experiencing that depth of devastation, then you're also experiencing that depth of like magic, I think. Of course. I mean, that's why we use the period of life because it's like the first time that suddenly you're open to, the kind of feelings and thoughts and ideas are going to be having

for the rest of your life. Before that, you actually just, even neurobiologically, all that stuff, you just weren't able to have. And then suddenly it's open. And so who you are in those early stages is a really interesting, it's just a really interesting sweet spot that never happens again. Yeah.

I'm just kind of curious, like, where's at 12 and 13 years old, like, how did you feel about yourself as an artist and a performer? Was that already there, you know? I think, yeah, I think maybe around the age of 13 is whenever I really started to think I, I just, I guess it's a really cool thing when you're a kid. And I don't know, you find something you feel special at

that you feel like you stand out in a way, especially when it's so hard, because sometimes you want to be a wallflower in junior high or high school, you don't want to stand out. But it started to give me a level of confidence and everything. So even around, like, people would be like, oh my gosh, are you going to sing at, you know, the talent show? Are you going to sing at church and Sunday?

Are you going to, like, just the curiosity from people is, you know, and the support I think was very helpful, you know. And then I ended up, I think the hard thing for me is growing, up religiously speaking and everyone telling you in the beginning like I mean it was like passive aggression yeah like with the like while you're singing for the Lord aren't you know I'm like well yeah I mean I feel like God made love and God made all these other things that I like to sing about you know I love that killing justifying any song I wanted to sing um but um I don't know I feel like that's when I started I almost like that it happened like that though because it really does force

you when people push something on you it forces you to really look at if you like a that or what you do like, you know, when you're given guidelines, or not guidelines, but restrictions almost, you know, and you have to play between the lines, you know, it's, well, what's outside the lines? You know what I'm saying? Like, it makes you curious. And so then you just start to, I think, develop as an artist, like, whether it's people you're listening to or friends you're meeting that are kind of changing the course of

who you are as a person to, like character-wise, personality-wise. But I don't really think, if I'm being truly honest, I don't think until I really got out on the road and started touring and really like meeting all these different artists on the road, all these different musicians pouring into me what they knew, me pouring what I, you know, had. And like, really that network and that exchange of just musical backgrounds is like incredibly important.

You know, I remember like my one boyfriend I had, I'll forever be grateful. First of all, he's a good dude. But secondly, he introduced me to Patty Griffin, and I was like, you will forever be held in high esteem for me. Like, it really changed me as a songwriter. So I don't know. I think I honestly didn't really figure that out.

Because I think that's what sucks now is like there's no really A&Ring anymore. And there's no really time you spend with it. Like, you two didn't hit right off the bat. You know what I'm saying? Princeton hit right off the. It was like they built that. And then they had that time to tour. or they had that time to like marinate who they were, right?

Yeah. And so I don't know. I think that that's kind of a lost art form. And I didn't really figure out who I really wanted to be till then. I think my 20s. Your first sort of international hit was Miss Independent, I think. And my impression of you, even talking to you now, but before talking to you about sort of someone who's followed your career, is that you seem very independent.

And I kind of want to say something, but let me know if we should edit it out because it might be sensitive. But I can't wait. I love that preface. Sort of like fighting back against the contract that you had with Idol and being kind of outspoken about it. And to my knowledge, like one of the only contestants who was, you're making a face like that doesn't register. Am I? Oh, no, no, no.

I'm just saying sometimes people flip things. I had a not so great relationship with RCA. I had a great relationship with 19 records who is actually the creator. Simon Fuller is the creator of Idol. It was a management company, record company, all that. No, actually, I have the craziest story about him. I was unhappy. I had worked, I think it was like three years with 19.

And it just, I never actually worked with Simon Fuller. Like, I worked with everybody that he, like, hired out of America. You know, I don't even know if he really knew everybody I was working with. You know, it was that kind of, and he is so kind and cool. And finally, I called him. I was like at an MTV iced out some New Year's Eve or something. and I called him and I was and I was crying because I felt bad

because I really do genuinely love Simon Fuller he's very kind and cool and like is the main reason why I'm sitting here right now so other than like obviously I work hard but like he heard me and immediately said like wasn't combative because I said I love you but like I can't like I don't work with you and this I'm actually miserable

with the people that you've surrounded me with Like this is like this is a like I might quit like this is not fun like it's not worth it You know I have a really big problem with people that lie and so I'm just like especially little ones I'm like what the hell why you lie about something little like that like you know what I'm saying? Like it's just it's a little odd and it's a red flag so I had that conversation with him and he immediately said I totally understand I will let you out I will honestly even help you find new management and I will help you felt like so he actually the creator of idol was very helpful in that i had a hard time with the other half of the record label part which was um rca that was not fun and i i sort of remember

you being outspoken about it somewhat yeah and it like registered for me as like a human like oh this girl is standing out and i feel like most people don't so i've had this impression of you maybe the fusion of that and misindependent as like kelly clarkson is so independent. And I, I relate as an independent person, but I lately have been feeling like, I think I'm too independent. Like, I think I'm missing out on, like, there are blessings and joys that come from relying on other people and just like asking for help. Like, I recently had really, really bad stomach virus and just, like, couldn't bring myself to ask anyone to walk my dogs. And I was like, practically passing out on the side. You're like, I can do it all.

Yeah. I was just like, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to figure this out. And so I just I just want to know, what is your relationship to independence? And are you really independent? Do you feel like you ever miss out on what comes from being a little more dependent on other people? I feel like age helps with that. So I, in my 20s, horrible. Asking for help. Horrible about being honest with people, like, around me that were very unhealthy people, like, around me.

So I would always walk on eggs because I would always, it's my tendency as a, as a, whatever childhood trauma to like try and make it okay. So like and I'll and I will accept things that you should never accept as okay, you know. So I think my 20s were really hard in figuring that out. But now, I mean, I think it's one of those things where I feel like I'm very independent. Yes. Like I love doing things. I literally like right before here I was at my ranch in Montana like we're planting trees, we're planting gardens. I'm with them. We're making trails. I'm moving giant trees from the trail. I'm sawing them. Like, you know, I, I love doing all that. So I like being independent. I like the, I like the empowerment of it. But I'm also quick to look at my

friend with me on the trail and be like, dude, can you, I'm dying. I'm like, so I'm, I'm also like able, I think, I think, and I guess the smarter way is to, able to, when you're put in a leadership position and you don't want to be a leader, being able, like learning how to delegate respectfully is a very hard thing, especially when you're young and you're younger than most people that you work with. That was a very hard learning curve for me. So that, that actually helped me, though, be able to be dependent upon people and rely on people. But I still haven't really found that in relationships. But professionally, like, no, I have a, I walk a, I think a beautiful line of like being enough independent, you know, having enough independence, rather. And then also

allowing people to, one, do what they do and shine as well. And be able to have. And be able to help you because I love helping people. So why would you want to take that from someone? You know, the opportunity to feel good, like to help you too. Yeah. I love that you bring up that point. Nava. I was a special education teacher and a general education teacher. I had both certifications. And when I was training in my classes for special education, a big part of the discourse is like independence, independence, independence. How do we help all children, no matter what their needs are as a learner to be independent. And then I worked at a school with every classroom was integrated between special education

and general education. You had two teachers. And they started to shift. They realized that, okay, independence is important, but what can we also learn about interdependence, helping students to actually become. Beg outside themselves and also be helpers and also, yeah. Exactly. And that helps not only the students who have special needs.

teaches empathy for others yeah which I think is a really beautiful distinction I love it it's the worst idea to separate any kids I get that it takes a lot of effort we were just talking about this beforehand too like even my kids are both dyslexic

so it's it's a really hard thing to ask a teacher especially in public school system which I'm from my mother was from when she taught it's a hard thing you have you know 26 to 30 kids in a class and that's too many and that's way too many

first of all. And it's hard enough having that many if they're all in the same learning curve. And they're all not. There might be two each on the same learning. But I do think it's so important to integrate. Because you're shielding. It's just the same reason too when people come on my talk show. This is the same kind of metaphor. And they're like, I really want my kids, you know, inclusivity is so important. I'm like 100%. And I'm not saying that for any other reason. Like that's important for like they're like, oh, it's important for. for people to see what they can achieve. I'm like, it's also important for my kids to see other things, other cultures, other people. That's important for everyone.

Everyone wins in that environment. You know, so I don't know. I think you're right. Like every kid learns in that environment and teaches empathy, which is what I think we're missing as a society as a whole a lot of times. It moves us from like the goal being like individualism basically to like community. Mm-hmm. Helping those around you.

Yeah, looking outside yourself. That's super important. And we'll be right back. Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate. And relationship classes, let's fix that. I'm Shan, an A-Sex certified sex educator with a master's in psych. And on my podcast, Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind-blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story.

Then we uncover the lesson for all of us. watch Lovers by Shen from Lemonada Media on YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast. What is your relationship to the concept of a muse? Where do you draw inspiration from? Do you feel like it comes from a force outside of you? Do you still kind of believe in a higher power? Like, what's all that for you? Yeah, I definitely believe in something bigger than all of us.

I grew up Southern Baptist. So I will say there was a lot that I didn't like about how I grew up or like things I saw. but I also had an amazing experience as well with certain people and that were, you know, stepped in as like father figures or, you know, just supported me, like, as a kid that didn't have that, you know? So, and I got that via church and I got that, I don't know, as well, like keeping me out of trouble. I feel like I'm from like a, when you're from a small southern town, there's not much to do except things you probably shouldn't.

Or any small town maybe, but especially in the south. board. So anyway, so I don't know. I feel like it kept me, it kept me grounded. It taught me to have a servant's heart. I love that. There's so much I can pull from my childhood and religion that I, you know, am a part of, was a part of. But also, I think it has advanced into something that's like even more open in the sense of like getting to travel all across the world and seeing these different cultures and seeing how they worship and seeing what they worship and seeing what they hold in high regard and how it helps them

and you know, I just, why would you not be open to like even hearing what someone has to say, you know, speaking about spirituality and stuff like that? So I'm always open. And I, the first part of your question, though, is, oh, Mews. Yeah, do you believe in that? I was like, I loved the first part.

I was trying to think of what you said. I love a muse. I really do. I think every artist does. So even if it's not, Like, even in the song I Hate Love on this new record, like, my muse were two movies. Like, you know, I love the notebook, but I also love it's complicated because that's like real. I know the notebook love is real and out there, so quit hating on me.

But I just mean it's rare and that's very movie-like. And so I don't know, I thought it was kind of funny to point that out. And I think that you can, you know, you can be inspired by so many things, movies, other music, people in your life that, well, never know songs are about them. But I don't know. I think it's fun and it's creative and I like having amuse. I do.

What is this complicated? I'm like wrapping my brain. Do you and your wife live here? I'm like, do you live in New York? Okay, I'm going to start some kind of movie like club with y'all. I feel like I know the title. Alec Baldwin, Steve Martin, Merrill Street. Yeah, okay, that was like recent-ish 10 years ago.

It was like a decade maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Krasinski, I think, is in it. Like, there's a lot of great people in it. It's so good. But the point is, is that her character, which I related to, just hadn't concluded,

even though they'd been divorced, you know, for a while, or separated or whatever, this character goes back to what she 100% should not go back to. But, like, you cannot fight chemical reactions sometimes, you know? You can't fight that. It's like innate. There's a reason why you're attracted to each other in the first place.

So the whole philosophy of like, that's why I say I hate love. I don't hate love. I love, but I just, I hate what love can do. I hate that it can promote blinders sometimes. You know, and I hate that, you know, you end up seeing hope and potential instead of what's actually there. So that's what I just referenced that my muse, you know, is really those two movies for that song. Yeah, what you mean. Yeah, it's something we think about a lot.

You need to watch it. Yeah. Okay. That sounds like something I could watch with my mom. I feel like my mom loves that. Oh my God. Anybody I love. My kids watch it.

My nine-year-old likes it. Okay. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. Steve Martin and Meryl Streep get high at a party at their kids' party. It's hilarious. I'll do it.

It's funny. And it's like, I mean, I'm like, man, jagged little pill. I got a whole basket I'm putting together for you. Kelly, you need to hang out with Penn and, yeah, let's indoctrinate him. It's top culture. But this is something that we think about a lot here is like the love fantasy machine of pop culture. Yes. You know what I mean?

Because you're talking about love. And what society tells you love is. Yeah. And like you said something I think is interesting, which is you can't fight those feelings. And I mean, I mean. You can. It's just hard. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree with you. And I think like what it really takes to, rather than, let's say, fight, like before we were saying, rather than independence, maybe this interdependence. Because like the idea we have about independence is sort of a little bit of a fantasy too, like a man is an island. Well, that's never been true.

Maybe if it was thousands of years ago, it's not anymore. We're all interconnected and we're interdependent. So, like, I wonder if we shouldn't be fighting those feelings as much as realizing, you know, what level of love they are. Because I feel like love, you know, we've made love so physical and sexual, you know, and kind of basic in a way. Yeah. But then there's the love that it takes to like, you dumb it down. Yeah, right.

And there's a love that it takes to like raise a child. Yeah. Which is such a different kind of like you are, you know, the patience and discipline you have to show yourself in order to inculcate that in them. I mean, it's just like. And also just if I can interject, like then the conversation comes up. No, I'm going. This is my show. No, no, I'm just going to interject because you just brought up something important that I don't think people talk about a lot. Like, when you do go through divorce, especially with young kids, the definition of love comes up quite a bit because they're like, that's so true.

You don't love Daddy anymore. Wait, so you don't love Daddy anymore. And I'm like, no, no, I was like, I love Daddy. I love that Daddy gave me you too. We just, we don't like each other like we did, you know, and it's just different now. But then it comes into like you see it in their face. and so you have these conversations because they question, can your love change for me?

That's the whole thing. But we have a blended family. I have a stepson. Oh. So I'm well, well, well, well aware.

And then it's hard when they go, well, why don't we have a grandpa from you? And then it's like, well, wait, you told me love was different with a parent and a child

than with, you know, with a husband and a wife. And I go, well, it is. Okay, well, then it's not because your dad left you. Right. So, like, why?

So that. And you're like, stop it with the questions. Yeah, I was like, I don't know. How old are you? Like, it's so hard. And my daughter is nine and curious and just needs to know everything. You know, my son is like not like that. He's different.

He just has his own world. And then Elvis and he'll come out six months later. And you'll be like, you were listening to that? Totally. No. I love how children reveal that we're performing intellectual gymnastics around things that are very clear. and kind of straightforward. You know what I mean?

And it's in relationships. I think it's even like... I remember the first time that my wife said when her first, my stepson was probably seven or eight, something like that, she used the term

girlfriend very explicitly. She said... She mentioned some past relationship of mine and said, oh, that was his girlfriend. and then I remember thinking like that's the first time he's heard that one let's see how this goes

because the concept No that's the same thing so my kid will see like Justin Gourini and we dated for a bit after Idol so they saw him somebody had me sign something that horrible movie anyway they had me sign something

and my kids yeah it's horrible contractually obligated anyway but they saw it and they were like wait was this your boyfriend and I was like oh well actually we did date for a little bit And them putting that together.

Yeah, they're like, so. So you're with another man other than our father? And why? Yeah, right. And they're like, so you, but you weren't married? Oh, my God. Then there's the question of like people they know and like certain people are super religious, which is totally fine in their lives.

And, you know, maybe still frown upon, you know, having a kid before marriage. And some are more like, hey, life happens, you know, like that's maybe not how they want it or whatever. So there's people in their lives too that that's happening. They're like, you can have a baby and not be married and it's like, oh, you know what? They didn't tell you this in the handbook of having children. I was like, I don't want to have this question, this conversation.

Yeah, it's really, really, really intense. And I think what's beautiful about it. It's involved. It's so involved because I think in order to have that conversation well with them. Yeah. Because in order to simplify anything, you have to understand it. And in order to understand it, it's like, oh, you've got to deal with your own. It really, what you end up doing is you end up. Sometimes you don't even realize you don't understand it yet. Well, exactly.

You don't realize until I ask you, and you're like, huh, how do I explain a boyfriend? Yeah. How do I explain a girlfriend? It's not, you realize that it's actually not that clear necessarily because of our cultural rules around dating are kind of arbitrary and preposterous. Yeah. And I just remember, like, what it does is you start to confront your relationships with your own parents, which no matter who you are, they're the first ones. At some point, and I mean this like in the best way, at some point, it's. let you down because they're not perfect.

They are not God. They are not... But that's almost freeing, I think, when you're older. I agree. And you go, oh, that wasn't about me. That was like about you. It's just like my kids. It's not about them sometimes. It's just about me going through something. So it's kind of freeing

to have that realization, I think, later in life. But also it's hard when you have kids and you're like, wow, then what was done to you or around to you is almost like, Wait, what? Then you look back and you're like, maybe that was really messed up.

And I didn't really realize it because it was my norm, right? So, I don't know. There's a lot that happens. I think, you know, anytime somebody's like, oh, I want to have a kid, I'm like, okay, well, you just need to make sure. First of all, you're good with no sleep. And secondly, that you're really, like, are you good with you? Because if you're not good with you, you're not going to be able to raise another human. Right.

And you're never going to be Totally good with you. Enough. Yeah. Sophie's about to have a kid. Yeah, I'm pregnant. Congratulations. Thank you.

I was like, am I good with me? Do you know? I was like, Sophie's going to spiral. This is. Do you know? Have you had a kid yet or is this first one? No, this is my first.

That's a girl. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy for you. I cannot tell you. I never wanted kids, by the way. I never thought I'd get married.

I'm very much. like just a wander I like life and I like I don't know I like that I got to be selfish in my 20s and then I ended up

wanting kids later because I had stepkids whenever I'm married and I was like oh this isn't like this is kind of cool so then it convinced me to have kids right

literally the greatest thing you'll ever be a part of I know it sounds so cliche there's nothing really to say that's cooler than that I know I know write this down

make a bumper sticker He has jacket, a little pill. Nothing better than kids. No, but there isn't. There's nothing better. Like, even my nine-year-old little baby girl, like she's still, I remember her is the little one in my arms and it's like she's sitting next to me or actually next to me on this side, driving my ATV around the ranch at nine and like just becoming this young woman.

And it's literally you're going to adore every stage. Some are going to suck. But like you'll still adore it because it's like even when they're being like hard, it's like you kind of like that they're sticking up for themselves or there's a little bit independent showing so you're gonna I'm so happy for you how fun thank you thank you so much I know we have to wrap soon I'm so sorry to jump in

but I do want to make sure we ask you about your album no so can you just tell us like favorite song sort of anything you want to share about chemistry we would love to hear it yeah well I think the important thing for me was I was releasing the album was I didn't want everybody just to hear one song before it came out because I feel like to diminish a

relationship down to one thing, like one emotional state or stage of grief or whatnot is, isn't cool. So I, you know, there's songs on there that are like favorite kind of high that are like very intense. Like you want to rip the person's clothes off with your teeth, you know, the beginning, that beginning chemical. It sounds like it would actually take a long time. Yeah, well, then you're not good at it. I'm just kidding. I'm just, you know what I'm saying? That fire in the beginning of relationship. Like there's nothing like that high of like the opportunity, like, this is what will happen, like from this feeling. You know what I'm saying?

There's nothing like that. And then it kind of goes through different stages of the relationship. But I will say my favorite is that I tell people about. I'm like, if you're going to listen to the album, I'm just going to listen to one song, at least listen to Lighthouse. That's my favorite one, I think, right now. It's a sad song because it was the moment that I figured out it was over. Like, I couldn't try anymore.

I was like, this is, no one's happy here. So, you know, one of us has got to make the move, you know. So that was a really hard song to write. But I think it's the one because it was so hard to write, it matters the most to me because, like, I made it through it. So I don't know. I feel like if anybody's ever been through that kind of hurt, like it's highly relatable. Kelly, I loved all the songs, but I was telling them before you hopped on, I am obsessed with magic. I was like playing that song on repeat yesterday all day.

It's so, I just, it's my favorite song you've ever released and it's one of my favorite songs I've ever heard. I like couldn't get enough of it yesterday. I was playing it all day. I was driving around like driving longer to just like keep listening to it. Oh my God, I made it 30 to 40 times. Yeah, I did, I did. I love, you know, that's so funny. Literally in my band, everybody remarked on that because we played the whole record for this show in L.A. and it was like, oh my God, magic. And I was like, I, it's, that song means a lot different things for me personally. But that chant at the end is like you can 100% tell I'm an Annie Linux fan

and so Annie Linux on that sorry for kind of ripping your vibe Annie but I love her and I just it was what I wanted I was like oh it's like when you're listening to Annie Linux and she does that thing where she like talks but sings and it just feels like a chant or something like yeah I love that song

that song and that's the thing though it didn't work out but like what a beautiful thing like if I die tomorrow, like I got to feel that. Like I got to feel something so magical at some point. I got to feel so much love and that not everybody gets that, you know. So that's why I like that song. It's about hope. And you got a good record.

Thank you. It's amazing. It's an amazing record. Everyone should go stream it now. It's so good. If you could go back to 12-year-old Kelly and say or do anything. What would you say? You know, I mean, I've been asked this before and then I, you know.

No, it's an original question. No, no, no, no. I've been asked this more like in just life because I remember that there's a Brad Paisley song that came out. I think it was Brad Paisley. It was like what you would tell your 16 year old self or something. And it happened in an interview once and I, and I was like, huh. And I always make a joke usually at this point if somebody asked me this.

But I think I think what I'd probably tell myself is like things may seem like so huge, like in the moment. but like I promise you it's going to be fine like everything seems so massive like when something doesn't go right and I think that we tend to especially in our youth everything is so detrimental like it's just like just ride it out

like it's going to be fine I think that would have saved me and maybe maybe teach myself how to catch some red flags and like you know leave them where they are and so I'm collecting them so I don't know I think maybe that.

It's hard, though, because then at the same time, I don't know that I'd actually tell myself anything because I think all those things got me to this point. Of course, yeah. It's a terrible question. No, it's a good question, but I just, I don't know that I, I don't know that I, would you want to, it's almost like, would you change anything? No, I would not change.

Yeah. I actually, no, I wouldn't. And, you know, I've asked enough people this question now that, you know, my evolving personal answer is like, I would want to demonstrate to that boy that I'm willing to listen and I would really want to hear I'm more interested I wish I could recall more specifically what I would have said to me now you know yeah because I think what I think you know the reason being young is hard is is is the same reason that we

can't always recall kind of our essence then it's it's something I don't want to I don't feel in my case something has been lost but I think can be. Yeah. I actually wish I could hear something very straightforward for myself then because that's when I was learning and I think a lot of us learn to start hiding who you are. You are becoming who you are but then you are learning how to hide that and that's a that's that's that's that's that's not a just society. We shouldn't have that. Here's, I agree completely. Here's what's scarier than what you just said is when you have your kid. You see that happen. And you're looking at them and you're like, Oh, no.

Like this whole time I thought... I was going to keep you from that. This whole time I thought I was going to help you and can steer you clear from the... And it turns out you are my little identical twin when it comes to some things, you know? So that's a hard pill to swallow. But, I mean, I guess you have the experience to at least sit in it with him and maybe the was what you said. Maybe it's just listening. Yeah.

to her, you know, and to him. Well, people don't seem to, it's hard to listen to your parents. I think somehow, that's my goal is like if my kids can, I will say, I have, they want to, I want them to listen. Yeah, I was going to say, I was, I was going to say, I'm pretty, my kids are pretty respectful. Like, you know, any kid can be a turd sometimes, but like, you know, we all can, even adults. But, like, I just mean, my kids are pretty respectful. But I do find myself all of a sudden being like, I mean, doing that parent thing.

Like, yeah, I don't. I'm not going to go through the time right now to describe to you or explain to you why. I'm not, I can't take that time every time. I just said go do it. Like, just go do it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, I can do that tomorrow. Today, I'm running on empty.

I need you to gather your troops and get it done. Like, yeah, that's, but for the most part, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, I don't know, I've, I've, I've developed a pretty healthy relationship with them as far as like, you know, when I asked them not to do something, they generally are pretty good about following that. That's amazing. Well, now we're going over.

We could keep going. I'm sorry, I'm a talker. No, no, no. We love you, Kelly. But it was such a pleasure to have you. Thank you for coming. No, thank you all for having me. And next time, if I do see y'all in person, I'm going to hug you.

Like a weird, awkward long hug. That you won't appreciate. I'm going to hold on tighter. Bye, y'all. Bye. Bye. Kelly. You can buy Kelly Clarkson's new album, Chemistry. It's out now. And you can also watch the Kelly Clarkson show on weekdays on NBC. You can also keep up with her online at Kelly Clarkson.

It's hilarious. I came out. I was talking to my crew, like right when I ran into him. And my videographer Weiss was giving me shit. And I was like, fucky Weiss. And I literally said fucky you, wise, and turned to look at Penn and was like, oh, hi. It was the sweetest fuck you. Yeah, it wasn't really nice like you, but it was like, I was like, well, that's the way to meet someone. Kelly Clark's in America's sweetheart. Stitcher. Are you team Batman or Spider-Man?

Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos? Smash Boom Best will help settle those debates and so many more. Every episode, we take two cool things, smash them together, and we see which one is best. Debaters use facts, jokes, stories, and more to. argue for their side and it's all judged by a teenager because who is better at judging than a teen it's fun it's weirdly informative it's smash boom best get it wherever you get your podcasts