Podcrushed - [Rerun] Matthew McConaughey

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

[Original air date: Sept 20, 2023] If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Who is the most charming man alive?” and come up with Matthew McConaughey, you are correct. This week, we bring you a rerun of Matthew's episode of Podcrushed, replete with Matthew’s infectious spirit as he regales them with stories from his adolescence in Texas, important lessons on love and patience, and why a little bullshitting is vital.   Preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993      Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here:   Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok  X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here:   Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pennbadgley/  https://www.instagram.com/scribbledbysophie/ https://www.instagram.com/nnnava/   Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@iampennbadgley  https://www.tiktok.com/@scribbledbysophie  https://www.tiktok.com/@nkavelinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It says Matthew is a storyteller, a treehouse builder, and a pickle expert. What are the top three attributes of a great pickle? I just really want to know. Great pickle? Firmly. Cold. I like him. We got to be cold. No one likes a warm pickle. And I'm a mini-coaching. I'm a mini-coacher. I like, I want to hear that sound like a almost not as stiff as a carrot, but close. Welcome. to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties. Practicing our best. All right, all right, all right. Welcome to Pod Crushed. My name is Penn.

I'm with my co-hosts. Sophie and Nava. We had Matthew McConaughey on today. Woo! All right, all right, all right. That man shines and, like, radiates. What is that? I couldn't stop thinking about it.

what it would have been like in person partially because Sophie and David pranked me and told me he was coming in person but I couldn't stop thinking about what it would have been like in person because the energy coming off of Matthew on Zoom I was like blown away

I could like barely handle his energy in the best way this man did not know who I was had no idea who I was that did not matter by the end of the interview he was digging in yeah he was digging in like he gave us his all

And by the end, I'm just talking about it. I'm just like, yeah, man. I'm a bullshit or two, Matthew. It's infectious. What in the hell? It made me want to move to the south. I've never wanted to. I can't remember when I lived in Virginia.

I lived in Virginia for seven years. No recollections. Yeah. I told you guys there's something great about Texas. I told you. It's Matthew Connay. Yeah. What?

No, it was amazing when we told Nava, when David and I pranked her and told her that he was coming in person. Successfully? Like, how long did that last? Just like maybe, maybe 30 seconds. I thought, I believed it. I completely believed it. The reason it only lasted a few seconds was because she was so confident. She was like, oh, well, this kind of sucks.

Like, this isn't a good prank. Because she just read green lights as why? Yeah. I thought she would be nervous, but she was like, oh my God. love him. This is amazing. Okay, let's think about a TikTok. I'm not planning a TikTok, so I have to tell her it's a prank. No, it's great. I like that the prank ended so you didn't look bad. You're like, oh, no, sorry, no, no TikTok because. Not doing extra work. Okay, I have to say that there's an episode that's out, Roblo, and I've never gotten more DMs and text messages

from people who know me really well to be like, you were so smitten the whole time, la, la, really funny. So this interview is like, do not be smitten in front of my You need to be cool. Like, you can't be thirsty. You're like trying to twill your hair. I could not stop smiling. Yeah. But I couldn't stop smiling the whole interview.

I was just like, my face hurt. I don't know if it was smitten with like romance. No. Romance. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's maybe it goes maybe. Can we cut this? No, we're keeping this because because you can't handle it.

We're definitely keeping it. Please watch the video version. I don't know that I've never seen Naviturn Reds. Please watch the video version of. What's happening? We're off the rails. For the first time ever, I feel like we're legitimately off the rails. And for that reason, I'm just, we are keeping this.

I don't care how long it goes. I don't care how long it goes. I was smitten with him as a human. That's what I was going to say. I think I was just smitten with him as a person. Yeah. Well, good luck convincing anyone about that. No, that's, no, come on.

I mean, no, that is probably the most. Look, we all have different qualities. He's the most charming human I can recall meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows what that is? It's true. Anyway, I hope you guys stick around and love it as much as we did.

And actually, as I say in the beginning of the interview, because of the strike, we just talk about life. And some of his book, a little bit, but really just about life. So it was nice. Hey, it's me, Steve Burns, and I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right? Yeah, and look at us now. Like, we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown-up stuff, and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye,

but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media, alive with Steve Burns is coming September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts, or you can watch every episode on YouTube. I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey and together we have the podcast office ladies just because we finish rewatching the office does not mean we're going anywhere every Wednesday we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests plus you can revisit all the office ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode so follow and listen to office ladies on the free odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts Let's just start at 12. Let's start at home and then go out from there. Your life at home at 12.

Life at home at 12. So my hero, my brother Pat, 81, 88, 7, he's 19. He's just moved out of the house. I'm now the only child. My oldest brother Rooster has been out of the house. So my hero just moved out of the house. My dad was working a lot. I mean, my mom was doing most of the raising of me.

It was clear what was expected. I mean, I just now took over all the yard duties, the wheat eating and the mowing along because Pat was gone. But, and we had just moved to Longview, Texas, which was a huge city to me coming from Evaldi. It was 75,000 people. And we lived off in the country. I remember the days in the summer, as I wrote about in the book,

we're filled with daylight to sundown. outside my mom was big on you couldn't watch we weren't allowed much television my mom's one liner was always don't watch somebody do what you want to be doing and get out there and go find out do it yourself um so the days they're sort of a rule in our house it was daylight you had to be out at 12 i was well on my way um i was in second place behind a guy named kelly hernsberger for best from best attendance since kindergarten wow all right now Fast forward a minute, we got to the senior year, 18 years old, I'd missed seven days since kindergarten. What?

Kelly Hernsberger missed four. So this was something every year. You were perpetually in second place to this guy? Wait, Matthew, I have to know what would cause you to miss a day because it seems like it would take a lot. Yeah, well, for me, look, you didn't want to miss a day in my house. Yeah. Because if you could breathe, it meant you had to go do some manual labor. You had to go do chores.

You didn't get to hang in bed. I will say this, though. I remember it was a little after 12, but I got the wisdom teeth pulled, I believe, and I did get to stay at home. And for some reason, I was allowed to have TCBY yogurt, which was a really special thing. Oh, yeah. I had yogurt. I had me. I was on whatever the painkillers were for the tonsils.

And we had just gotten cable television coming for. I'd always been a three-channel family. And when you could watch TV, it was a big deal in the house. I remember finding WGN, Chicago station. And the Chicago Cubs day game came on in Wrigley Field. And it was a 16-inning two-to-one pitchers duo. And I got to sit there and eat my yogurt. I remember it lasts like five and a half hours.

And that's when I kind of fell in love with baseball. I was like, this game's great. Because it was just me, my yogurt, and a game on a day off from school. And I had the house. And your mess. And whatever meds I was off the top. It's great. So that's what was like at home.

You know, at school, what 12? Is that sixth grade? Six or seventh? Yeah, six seventh. Yeah, six. So seventh, I mean, you know, sixth is big because. because you're coming to you, the youngster of the six, seventh, eighth graders. I did like a girl in the eighth grade who had been dating a guy who was in the eighth grade.

They were the thing. But when they broke up, I did swoop in there. And I remember that led to that that guy and some of his friends working on me, picking on me on the bus ride home. but I also, because I stood up to it, I remember getting their respect because they were like, who's this kid think he is in sixth grade? You know, da, da, da, da, da, da. And the girl ended up saying yes when Ash would go with me.

And I remember we kind of hung out. So I kind of, it showed him up, but yet he still comes like, okay, well, he did it. But I remember, I remember this. It was a bus ride home. And him and his buddies have been picking on me. You know, hard, wadded up paper. We're bam on the back of the head on the bus and stuff like this.

And there was a bunch of them. And it wasn't about going and getting in a fight or anything. He was just about putting up with it. I told my older brother who had come home from college. And the next day, we're driving the bus. And all of a sudden, the bus driver pulled over on the side of the highway. And I look out, it was my brother. He had pulled a Z-28 and pulled the – got out of the car, got on the bus,

came back there and said, Matthew, which ones is it? Which ones are they? And I pointed out, Scott, hey, then, my brother told him, he said, do you mess with my little brother anymore? I'm messing with you. Then he went to the bus driver. I remember he said this. He must have got this from my dad. He goes, if you can't handle your bus, I'm going to handle you.

Oh, my gosh. Never picked Tommy again. It was done. I was in. We were good. No more, no more watered up paper balls at the back of the head. For you to swoop in like that, though, I mean, were you, because the thing about this age is that kids, I have a 14-year-old right? now, and I have a three-year-old, by the way.

Kids at that age can be so different. Some of them can look like men, some of them are boys, you know? Like, were you, I mean, for you to even do that, you must have been a little tall. You must have been, I mean, what was going on? No. I mean, look, physically I was a late bloomer. Huh. Okay.

I mean, can we say the word peach fuzz on this? Yeah. Ooh, that's crossing the line. Remember that one? I was the last one with that. Yeah, okay, okay. And I mean, I wasn't, you know, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my end scene was always shorter than my waistline. So I wasn't long-legged.

I wasn't fast. I wasn't that tall. Um, I remember I did have one pair of vel, I think Velcro capes had just come out, which gave me a little bit of confidence. So I had a clean pair of capas shoes that Velcroed over. I had my two pair of JC Penny Plain pockets. You couldn't have one, two pair. And you didn't get your, I remember mom saying that she, we will not, will not wash your jeans until they can stand up in the corner on their own.

That's so good. So you wore the jeans quite a bit. I remember, I think the old roll them up at the bottom, fold over, taper roll up at the ankle was in. That was cool, which actually made my legs look shorter, but it was still cool. It felt cool, son. No, so physically I wasn't. I was behind, but I mean, I was...

So, yeah, what was going on inside then? Because that's, is it, would you call it confidence or would you, what would you call that? Maybe I had confidence from having an older, older, older brotherhood, you know, and taught me in a dad who had taught me, you know, how to respectfully ask a girl to, if you like them to go out with you. Now, I couldn't do the same things at the eighth grade girl that I was dating could do. But then I also had mom on the other side, which gave us me and my two brothers a lot of confidence. I've always going like, she always reminded us this. And I think we'll hopefully talk about it later if we get around and heartbreak. But she was always, my mom to this day, has always been a big proponent of, hey, you remember you're a catch.

You're a catch. You respect yourself and you respect your own body. You are you, you're the catch. Now, that doesn't hold up as well when you're sitting there asking, you're sweating and you're asking the girl to go with you. But maybe that did give me the confidence to do it in person instead of having a friend to ask or writing the note. Right. Right. You know, athletically, I'd just come out, I was just realizing that I wasn't big and I wasn't fast.

Earlier in life, I was not fast, I was big, I was strong. I always had a big butt and big legs. So I had a really strong legs and butt, and none of the kids could tackle me in football in the backyard. I could just, they'd be hanging all off me. And I was like, oh, that's what I'll do. I'll go play football because I'll be the big guy that can't go down. Well, all of a sudden about 12, all the young kids started getting bigger than me and

faster. And I remember playing linebacker. and in the seventh grade and against Marshall who was at Longview it was a Marshall and I was playing linebacker the offensive line on Marshalls just completely split our defensive line

handed off to the running back who was a twin five foot 10 and a half 175 pounds and he is a twin brother and they both had beards I remember seeing

This bearded athlete come at me, and I'm whatever, five foot, four, one, one, thirty-five, and I'm big eyes. And I remember seeing this beard. Well, I still got peach fuzz in other places where, that it's supposed to grow in earlier, right? No, I'm not even thinking beard, you know what I mean? I got blondes there, you know, on my legs and everywhere else. And I remember he came and ran up, and I was like, I'm not sidestepping him, and I hit him straight. And all of a sudden, next thing I remember is I came to and my teammates were picking me up, slapped me on the back.

I had hit him straight up and I had both of his shoes. He'd gotten out of my shoes, but I, I was 10 yards. He'd take me 10 yards down the field, but I had his shoes, but I slowed him down long enough for Corey, our big cornerback to tackle him 15 yards down the field. And it was a big, it was kind of a big ride of passage. I kind of blacked out for a minute, but I did hit him straight up. I remember that. You mentioned being in sixth grade and being confident enough to ask out the girl who is in eighth grade, which seems like it says a lot about you in terms of how you felt around girls or how you felt around crushes.

Well, just that that's what a confidence we're talking about. And I wonder if you could tell it. We ask everybody on our podcast to tell us about their first love and first heartbreak. And maybe that's in middle school. Maybe it happened later for you. But could you tell us? No, it's middle school. You know, and this opens up that question.

Then I'm starting to go through, I think I'm on the cusp of it with my children. I've got 15, 13, and 10. So definitely with the 15 and 13 is starting to happen. Yeah. You probably know it, Penn, with 14. But this idea of love, that's a big word in my family. You didn't throw that word around. To feel it and say it was a very,

very, very big deal to me. And I did. I had a girlfriend. And this, I'm going to tell you the story of the first love and the heartbreak. And they're going to have a common denominator of the breakup.

And they broke up with me. I went away on a like a field trip with a class to Madrid. And while you have an allowance, right? And what do you do with that allowance?

You spend it all on something for your girlfriend that you love, right? You don't forget everything else. They forget all the other people. They don't need a gift when I get back. But I got her this necklace. And then I got her this like crystal trinket. And then I got her like something else. And I came back and I unloaded these gifts on her.

It was too much. It scared. And she broke up with me. Right after I had given all these gifts. But you know what it is. We've all felt it on the giving and on the receiving side. It's like for whatever reason it was, it was too much. The gifts, it was too many gifts.

And she broke up. And I remember we crying and having sleepless nights and really having trouble getting out of bed in the morning. And I remember my mom coming back to my bed and telling me, look, I feel for you as positive as my mom always was. She could always tell with those kids when we were really hurting and come back and sit with us and go, let's sit here in the pain for me.

I know this sucks. I know this hurts. And to hear that and then eventually get to, now remember, you're a catch, she's going to notice what she lost and then start building the confidence. But mom was always good about sitting. Let's sit in the pain right now, your first heartbreak. That was the first one. The second one was later in middle school in the eighth grade.

I met someone and it was going. It was going. and she said to me wrote me a note and it said I love it and I was just whoa the feelings all the way to my fingertips out of my heart I was oh my gosh and two weeks later oh no I said it to her and the next day she broke up Do you think it had to do with you sharing your feelings or coming on maybe what was too strong for her? What was it? Well, it was that, but, you know, I mean, again, we're going to try and break down the science and math of love,

which we know is a foolish idea thing to do anyway, because if anything, love's not really dignified. I mean, it doesn't, it's not fair, but the too many gifts were, I guess it was, it intimidated her or maybe, there's that thing that we do young word oh now i know i got you bye bye you know i felt that before on my side where i felt somebody give it i was like oh well now you just fully committed to me okay had you felt that but you probably felt that after these incidents right yes so so these two right and the i love you she even though she said it first soon as i said it two weeks later she broke up and i remember that being a major heartbreak and made me very confused about,

well, what's the love thing? What's the I love you mean? Yeah. You know, because she opened up to me and said it first, and now I came back, reciprocated, and we were supposed to meet in the middle and go higher and become more full, and now she went up. And so for her, you know, now I'm older.

I look back and I go, that's probably how she was feeling. She was beautiful and pretty and affluent, and I was the only guy in town, you know, that she could date and I think getting that I don't know I didn't study her history did she have a track record of getting guys in as soon as you got him to say that word but that was that's what it felt like that that was the hinge that was like okay

check I felt like it was a check for her got him to say I love you okay later move on did it make you more gun shy for like future relationships probably probably You know, and I've still, to this day, you know, one of my favorite scenes, if y'all ever see it. You ever see the film Adaptation? Yes. It's one of my favorite movies, yeah.

You know the scene where Nicholas Cage's brother's talking to his brother, he plays both the characters, and they're sitting, the Chris Cooper characters and Merrill Schuper coming through the swamp, hunting him down. He goes, you got to tell me about that girl, Karen. Man, they think they're about to die. He goes, you got to tell me about that girl, Karen. Remember, she said, you want to go to prom with me? and you said yeah and then all her friends were there laughing

because it was a joke she never wanted to go with you she just wanted to dupe you he's like how'd you get over that so quick and he goes well I loved her because I know

that she duped you he goes no my love didn't depend on her loving me back I unconditionally loved her go for it and it's a beautiful little see love now not one that in our youth

I think we can dare really understand we can intellectualize it, but damn, she don't feel like that. Here didn't feel like that to me then. It felt unfair. It felt I was scared of love. I was scared of the word. I was much more trepidation to use that word, and I backed off and looked at the people in my life that were my family and one friend that I could say I love you.

And I knew it was reciprocated, no matter what. So I was very wary about when to ever, when to next say that word or share that. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, what we've found, so in the first season of this show, we actually had a lot of listeners submit stories. And what we got, what we found is that things like this can stick with people, maybe their whole lives. And I feel like you certainly can appreciate that. You seem to tap into the last, you know, I don't know, decade or so tapping into this idea that people are really in need of encouragement. You know what I mean? And I'm just wondering if, you know, because you have represented a certain kind of icon of masculinity, there's no doubt about it. I mean, I'm not making any estimations of how you feel on the inside. But that's really significant, and it's really interesting to me,

and I think other people. Like, what was the journey of, like, young Matthew McConaughey, young, like boy becoming a man, you know? Like, I don't know how long or short you can make that art. Let me tell you, want me, go back just before middle school to say something that was really written in my lineage, whether I chased it or not, which I didn't, right? But I understood it. My dad was a big, yes, sir, yes, man, please, and thank you. Sir is a man guy.

And you had to do it. Look someone on the eye. And I remember one day meeting some more of his friends who were much taller than me and looking up and shaking their hand and going, nice to meet you, sir, nice to meet you, sir. And the one thing that connected in my mind that day was in the parking lot at Oak Forest Country Flood. It was hot. The sun was high. They had shades on. And I didn't.

My eyes squinted as I looked at them. I remember going, oh, you know what the one common denominator of everybody that my dad has had me say sir to is? They're all fathers. And manhood meant being called a sir. And the one thing about being a man was, oh, they're all fathers. That's the one thing they all are. So from that day, I was like, oh, you become a father. You become a man.

That's it. That's the ultimate cool. That's the ultimate respect. That's when you become a sir. That's when you go from prince to king. Now, obviously, whatever, I'm 10, 11, 12 years old, I'm not chasing trying to be a father right away. But it was always, it got pressure tested by life throughout, in flings I had, in times where I thought I'd be single the rest of my life. in times where I thought I was going to become a monk or whatever.

It was always right there going, that's a diamond. That's a diamond. That's timeless truth right there for you, Matthew. And it never wavered. And so that's what I was always looking forward to, facing if one day I can become a father. Stick around.

We'll be right back. all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to 10 and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job that sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product

that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, the liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. It comes out in the packet. You put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out,

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slash podcrush and start learning today. In your book, Green Lice, it's one of my favorite books. I'm listening to it. I'm almost done, but I'm listening to it on audiobook. It's so, it's so rich to hear you tell these stories. But as I've been listening to it, I've been getting this sense that your dad is sort of like larger than life. kind of almost like a mythic character. Yeah. And I'm wondering now that you're a father and you've been a father for many, many years now. What are the elements of parenting that you saw through in your father that you've decided intentionally to to bring into your own fatherhood? And are there elements that you have decided to just like gracefully let go of? Both, you know, and trying to ride, you know, trying to do that.

I think that all of us try and do is just have a small ascension, be a little bit better dad than me a dad would, be a little bit better friend, be a little bit better husband, whatever those things, you know, because we learn. That's what we get older for. That's what we have hindsight for. That respect, that sirs and maims, we're still big on those in our household. Because the Old Testament way, if we're going to go biblical, is like, you do it because it's your elder and you better do it. Show respect. Valid, yes. But also the New Testament thing that I've added on to that is, look, guys, you also do it because you're going to get more what you want in life if you do.

You know, spring the honey to the bees to the honey. You see though, you see that. You see that person double tape back at you and go, thank you, ma'am, thank you, sir, for those matters. That's that you're building currency in relationships. With that respect, we don't use the word C-A-N-T, can't. That's something my dad taught me. Don't say can't. That was a bad.

It was a cuss word. That was like taking the Lord's name of thing. You can go, I'm having trouble. I need some help. Fine, because that's constructive. My dad was always like, that's constructive. Come to me. Maybe I can help you.

And if I can't help you, maybe I can find someone else who can help you. but don't say can't. I remember he'd show us how to do things when we'd say can't. And then maybe a day's week later, and you go, see, you were just having trouble. You'd be like, you're right. We don't, we're very, we're very delicate with the word hate, which is another thing that that was, my mom was a big sticker on that. You don't hate, especially your loved ones. And I remember throwing that word out at my own birthday party about my brother.

And I threw it out to try and sound like I was older because I'd heard the older kids say it. And when I said it, I knew, I was like, oh, I was in moms. It was an ear range of mom. I'm in trouble. That was a dirty word about my brother. I felt guilty about it right away. And anyway, I remember getting in trouble in front of everybody at my own birthday. Wow.

That was embarrassing. Um, you know, the big on, big on, uh, um, being honest and not lying. I wrote about it in the book, but my, my, my dad especially was like, admit you lie. And I talk about a lot. Then if you admit you, we admit where we lie, the lies we tell ourselves, we become something much more valuable. We become good bullshitters.

Now I love a bullshitter over a liar. I thought you were going to say like an honest person. Wait, wait, wait. So I'm curious. What's the difference? What's the difference? Because while I'm telling you the tall tail, I got a twinkle in mine. I just gave you a little bit of a wink that lets you know.

The liar's sitting there going, no. I'm telling you the truth. I'm defending this. This is out what? Now, that's lying. Come on, man. The little twinkle in the eye of like, yes, the proverbial fish was only eight pounds, but go with me on this one.

It was 12. That's fun. There's poetry in that. There's drama. leniency, there's bullshit, there's, hey, let's jive. It's good a vibe going here. That's something different than being a straight liar. Now, in our family, my dad would rather us, I mean, I tell that story in Green Lights about the pizza story. I got in trouble from him, not because I stole the damn pizzas, it's because I lied about instead of didn't.

And like he told me, he said, buddy, I've stolen plenty of pizzas, man. Number one, you either need to get, you need to talk to me about I'd get away with it better or and, you know, what's the, why do you lie to me? And I remember seeing that look on his face when I got in trouble that. I was, I talked about it in the, in the book, it was a very emotional moment because I feel like I'd let him down. I saw on his eyes a look like, am I, where have I failed raising my son that he can't admit truth about seeing it? Damn, pizza. Where did I fail as a father where he's got to feel like he's got to lie to me about that three times to my face. And that was the pain that I felt of seeing the look on his face like, what I'm supposed to do?

What am I supposed to do? And I always regretted that. And we talked to our kids, you know, about it now. We're coming into those years where they're seeking their independence. There at those times where they'll say things. to us and agree and maybe go off and do their own thing, make up their own mind. And so just having talks the other night. I mean, there's certain things.

I know you want to choose for yourself. Me and mom are not here to overprotect you. We're not here to tell you, can't do that. We're saying, hey, we've been there and know where you're there. And you're there in new places and ways that we haven't been. But disgust, this is a great term, my buddy Bart. Nag's in Austin, Texas, who's raised three, raised a few girls, moved out of the household. And he said this to me a few weeks ago. And I love this term. And I think you are going to dig it.

He was like, man, in these teen years, he can do one thing or what? He goes, try and maintain success. And then communicate. Yeah, because all the stories I hear is that there's that there, a lot of parents go through, boy, 15 to 19. They zip it up. And then at 19, they come back one day and they go, yeah, everything you were saying, I get it now. Thanks.

You're going to, but it's not over that quick, man. Five years you put me through hell out, you know what I mean? So if you can maintain access. We're trying to do that now. And my parents were very old testament, you know. A lot of stuff, I've always said there's a lot of things I did not do as a kid that I should not have done. And I did not do them for fear of the.

punishment for my parents. So there's some validity in that fear base. At the same time, I want to, I'm a little, I want to lean a little more into the New Testament. I keep bringing up biblical analogies here, but I want to lean a little more into the, no, let me show you why if you choose to have the discipline not to do that, how it's going to serve you. How that choice, maybe that sacrifice today will give you a greater reward down the line. Now, as we all know, what's the hardest thing to teach kids, delayed gratification. They all think they're living forever, and today's the day, and that's it. It's basically one of the hardest things to teach adults, too.

We don't like to project at all and, like, make a sacrifice for a greater reward tomorrow. But, boy, if I can get that where they can see, like, I see, you know, we've talked to our daughter, well, do you want to be the, you know, the girl that kisses the most, guys early, maybe most popular that year, but come eighth grade, words kind of gotten around, you know what I mean? Reputation, oh, da, so just, again, just trying to lay out there. Here's the possible consequences of your actions. Now, which one do you want to choose?

And they're all trying to snoods. You're trying to fit in. You're going to middle school. You're trying to fit in. What do you want to be? You want to be popular. Okay, let's talk about this. Popular for what?

We all want to be relevant, but relevant for what? It's a pretty doggone question to ask ourselves and for how long term, you know, but it's hard to get children to project like, well, what's that going to mean in high school? What's that going to mean later in life? Because that's the time to try things and fail. It's the time to stick your foot in your mouth. It's the time to ask so and so the problem when you think you're sure you got it. And they say no.

It's the time to be confused and come. home and you know and just we're trying to keep access i mean so a lot of those things are things that my father did put put on us and expect from us i think camille and i are trying to do our best with going realizing i don't want to be i don't want to be i'm not going to be the old nostalgic parent who says the stories well back when i and their life has changed it's different it's similar to the same but they've just so much more information coming out than we ever did than I ever did. And you live in virtual,

you have virtual relationships. It's talking about projection, you know, their days or social media, their days or go well or don't go well, depending on thumbs up or thumbs down. And so we talk about, you know, what does that mean? Again, what's real and all that and what's not real?

And I try to be honest with them. I go, look, I'm your dad. I've got mom, I've got family. I'm successful. Does a good review of a movie feel better than a bad review? You damn right. does. Does somebody writing something about me completely false that shows up in some news feed,

even though I know it's completely false? Does it affect me and make me feel physiologically a little when I walk out there? Yes, it does. You would think I would be able to be immune to that. Well, no, even me. I'm not. These are real and you're young. So I understand. Be open and accessible to share with us. Oh, this hurt. And let's talk about, let's admit it hurt. admit and then talk about how much credence should we give it? You know, and how much important and import should we really give it? And let's talk about it. So we're trying to maintain access, I guess, in ways that you might say are a little more

lenient New Testament than my parents did, but based on a lot of the same exact values that my parents instilled me and my brother. Matthew, I feel like we could talk to you for five hours. I have so many questions I want to ask you, but just while we're on this topic of, do you have four more hours? Just while we're on the topic of delayed gratification in your book, Green Lights, you talk about sort of red light moments as opportunities for planting green light seeds. And I'm wondering what you've learned about, because I think in a red light moment,

there are like heavy feelings that can also keep you trapped or stuck. So what have you learned about sort of like moving through those emotions so that you can get to that green light season and also take advantage of the season that's present for seed planting? Well, you know, it's sort of based off of the initial. sort of equation I put at the beginning of the book is when faced with the inevitable, get relative. And as soon as we can be faced and we can admit and realize the inevitable from whatever happens in our life and get relative with now going forward,

what's my decision-making paradigm, I think the better. Now, biggest red light in my life, my dad died. I went through the pain, went through the morning. I still miss him. but the green light is I got very I was forced to get very courageous in my life and to get courageous and finding my own identity and to put my ass on the line about what I stood for and what I stood against and look in the mirror and go where you just been acting like what dad's been raising to be and where you've been really doing it

and I had to call myself out and I got very courageous actually in his learning his mortality him leaving. I was like, I don't have a safety net anymore. I don't have a crutch. And I can either go, whoa, or I can go, let's go. And I remember a sobriety of mental and spiritual sobriety coming with his moving on where I went through it. I remember right now the world is flat. And I looked further and my peripheral vision was clear. And I was like, things that bother me and failures that bothered me before when I did sort of have 10% relying on if I really get in a pinch he's got my back things that would bother me didn't bother me anymore I just barge through things and exposed the mendacious things in my life that were like

that's not worth worrying over and it was something about him leaving this life that did that that made me go because you can go two ways you loved one leaves life you either shell up and go oh, my gosh, I'm afraid to live, or you go, we got a one-way ticket. We all got a one-way ticket. What are we doing? Let's get up and go find out. And if I, if I trip and fall and screw up, F. So what?

So I got, I tapped into that, and that's when I started to take chances and seek opportunities and get much more courageous and started plant seeds that became green lights. Now, you know, more ethereal version of that, what I noticed later, and I would argue today, to be true, is that to actually choose that and become more courageous to start planting green light seeds when you're face with the red light is actually honoring the red light. Yeah. And I believe when I did that, I look back, I was like, oh, you're actually, you're honoring dad, your dad, Matthew. you. If you to hold up and going, I had no, I'm not, I'm not ready. That would not have been honoring. I'd throw myself in the ring in ways that I had never done before without looking on my shoulder saying, hey, you got my back? Because he wasn't there to have my bag anymore.

I felt like, and this is more of a recent realization, I felt like, oh, that's a way of honoring that red light in your life. Putting it up on a pedestal, seeing it as painful, a harsh consequence, something you don't wish on anybody, but something you can damn sure rely on when it comes to somebody dying and then going, all right, and I shine a light on that and make this a diving board, a springboard. There's a story in the book about your seventh grade poetry competition that made me laugh out loud, mostly because your mom reminded me of my mom in that moment, but it did make me think about you as a writer. You talk throughout the book about your, I mean, it's comprised of

a lot of your journal entries. You've written since you were a teenager. And now you've written another book. You've written a book for children. Can you tell us a little bit about what inspired that? Yeah. So being a parent, then you know, you're a parent. Anybody else parents? I'm pregnant. I'm going to have a baby soon. Okay. So the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the prism, the lens you start looking through life through just changes. You're now a shepherd, at least, a postman, postwoman at least. He's one-off choices you can make going, if I fail, I'll get back up. Become, no, I've been making decisions for these dependents behind me. You know what I mean? It's a different peripheral vision you get. So you start

seeing life through that, making choices through measuring, for your young ones as well. That consumes my mind a lot. And something's on my mind a lot. I have dreams about it. This was a dream I had, and I woke up at 2.30 in the morning. I went and wrote it down, all I had was the jingle. Just because they threw the dark don't mean that it stuck.

And just because I got some skills, don't mean there is no luck. And I remember going after that. It was a song. It was a, I woke up, I got this great. Bob Dylan Diddy. And I was like, because, you know, you're wailing. Doesn't mean that you're a cry. Just because I lied does not mean that I'm alive.

And it just, and so the hook was just because, and I had the beat. And I just wrote from 2.30 to 630 in the morning. Went back, got in bed, got up, and looked out. I was like, this is good. Wow. And I was like, this is fun. And I sent it to, and I was like, I think it's could be good for, for people young. Because there's also a lot of verses that are not in this book that are for more even older people that are more, I don't know, a little more R-rated that are funny for adults, too.

But I picked out these and I sent to my book, he was like, this could be, this would be great for a children's book. So I started sharing a bunch of the couplets with my own kids. They liked them. It started conversations that I wanted, it was hoping to have. They had different, each one of them had different take on each couplet in their own life. And when they asked me questions, I had a different take than their mother had on the same couplet in their own life. So that's what I put together. It was a ditty.

It was a song and then really put it down and hopefully it's a great conversation started between parents and youngsters. Matthew, will there be an audio book musical version of this? I'll do the audio book. I think I do it this week. Amazing. Okay. I have a question about one of the couplets. Just because I mean, it doesn't mean I'm not lying.

Can you share more about that? That one really struck me. Yeah, well. That's the difference between a bullshitter and a liar. But in this case, the person means it. He's saying just because I mean it doesn't mean I'm not lying. Right, right. Well, this is a little goes into that, I think, if you deconstruct, when is it the right time to lie?

You talk about the little effluent lies we talk about, you know, yes, go be honest. But if you can sit there and say something to the proverbial bad guy in the situation that can preserve or buy you more time. to preserve the good people or your family or whatever. Relatively, that's a good time to tell fit, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, the, and, the, the grandson, he's coming. The grandson drops on his knees and starts praying, it's like, get your ass. Scared prayer ain't They ain't stopping the damn tornado We got to go to shelter

It's a little bit like Yeah, I know you're told You're in strife to go pray for it No, we got to take action It's it leans into that a little bit Just because, I mean, it doesn't mean I'm not lying You can mean something It's a little bit like that

Just because I did it again doesn't mean I don't regret it Sometimes you're like, I'll take the consequences, man. I'll do it again And yep, guilty. Catch me. And that's the second time I did. did it. But I want that cookie so much. I'll take the damn consequences. Who took the last that was me? Yes, I regret it because I regret what may happen to me, but the want, the need at

the time, whoo-ho-hoo-hoo, overrode possible consequences. Sign me up. It's a bit of that. Sometimes we just do it. And we're like, I'll deal with the consequences. I'm fibbing, but I mean it. You know what I mean? It's, it's, and it ladles, it does ladle into Sophie, what you're talking about, a little of that story with the existential logic of my mother telling me, you know, this poem that she loved is Ann Ashbury poem. If you understand that, I guess I understand. Does it mean something? Yes, it means it to me. What does it mean?

I tell him. She's like, well, there you go. Then it's yours. I'm like, well. He won the competition with that poem. I won. He had written, he had written his own. poem and showed it to his mom, and she said, no, use this poem.

Wow. And then it also leans into drama, poetry, symbolism, magic reality, sometimes, a lot of times, art. The image can tell more truth about the situation than the actual detailed factoid words about the exact mathematics of the situation. Does that mean that the art, the image is a lie? It's not really what happened. It's not factual.

It's not, you know, baseline truth, facts. But, yes, someone, what they got from that and what they got from the report, you know? I understand a lot more from this, the longer, the longer machinations of what it says about life. So it just leans into that about, you know, I don't want to be such, I don't want to have to tell kids, and I don't think it's right best to tell kids. Hey, you have to, it has to be the, because I've done it to myself, lived in times, I'm like, it has to be the absolute single truth. You make sure.

All of a sudden I was like, no fun to be around. I didn't have any of the BS. We were talking about Penn. I didn't, I didn't see art and things. I couldn't make a poem, you know, it makes something rhyme because I was like, no, no, no. The facts, the fact should be just it. Well, they're pretty dry sometimes. So where do you give a flower?

Where do you throw a beer in there? Where do you have some fun and break a sweat and go? I'm not sure. It's not as much about, you know, the reason. I needed the rhyme. Thank you for the rhyme. Now, now I can fly. Geez, all this reasoning, all this logic,

especially with us passionate animals. I'm reminded every single day. And I'm a big logic guy. Get off your logic eye horse. We are passionate animals. Logic is usually, usually not the answer, especially in relationship. And we'll be right back. I don't think we're talking about our hormones enough.

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guy. Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try-n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. I really want Penn to have a chance. I feel like Sophie and I've been so eager, but I want to ask you one more question and then I'll yield the time to Penn. Just while we're on the topic of love. I've heard you say that in periods, during periods of time when we're looking for love, we can be intrusive and we can sort of get out of ourselves. And instead of inviting someone, we kind of intrude on them and that it's important to stay in yourself and invite. And I thought that was really pertinent to some things I've been experiencing and just like really

well said. And I wonder if you could just share a little bit more about that difference between intrusion and invitation. Yeah. Well, the most attractive people I know in life, male and female. They never intrude. They never trespass. I just sent out a birthday wish to a 90-year-old man just turned 90-day, and I was telling him one of my favorite things I got you. You never trespass. They always hold sort of the constitutions here.

They don't lean in. I just lost a buddy John Cheney at 78, and one of the most attractive things, people were attracted to him of all ages and sexes because he just always, he walked everywhere. He didn't run. He came into a situation. He held on.

all of a sudden, it would be the last one to speak up. And when he did, people were like, that's the idea. And it was part of it. He never got out of himself. My friend Jake Weber never does that, never leans in. And it's something very attractive. You become a magnet when you're yourself and you have a place in a situation and you're not trying to be first in line or interrupt or the first one to speak or, hey,

let me get in front of you. There's an eagerness to that that's not as attractive usually when it comes to relationships, I find. I catch myself doing it all the time. I'll be intrusive. I may be getting all the points across, but people aren't listening there as well because I wanted to have the right and best answer each time right away.

And first, that's a bit intrusive. And it's a bit like, okay, but to sit back, have a listen, be present. And then all of a sudden, someone goes, And what's your opinion on that and you give it, it means a lot. It's like I talk about, you know, to coaches all the time of young teams. There's the coaches that yell everything. And they're the coaches that talk like this and coach and on certain things at certain times.

You have to raise your voice. Well, youngsters listen a lot more to that second example. Because when the coach raises their voice, oh, this is an explanation mark. this means something in particular. The ones that's yelling all the time, they start to mute it out. They're like, I don't know what's more important than the last thing.

You're yelling everything. That's a bit intrusive. So, you know, it takes a certain confidence and presence to not be intrusive, to not trespass, to sit back and read the context of a room of someone else,

to catch an eye. Look, when I first night I met Camilla, I started off being intrusive. I started off waving, trying to get her attention. And I don't know to this day, if she caught my eye, but chose to ignore it, but I'm glad she ignored it because if she'd have caught my eye doing this and I'd have followed through with, hey, we'd come over here. I don't know. That would have been my first boge right there.

I'll be going to be here now with her and the family. But evidently, if she did not catch my eye long enough for me to go, hey, can you, You didn't hear my mom's voice at 12 in my ear going, you don't wave this woman over to you across the room. Boy, get your ass up and go ahead and introduce your stuff. And I went, that's right. Now I was on the right track, much less intrusive, much less lazy, much more respectful.

Then to look, in relationships with friends as well. You start off with great friendships when it's easy. easy to say no. I want a friendship where no's just as easy as yes, right? Hey, can you make it to this thing? No, I can't. I'm going to, cool. That's a great friendship, I think.

What happens? We start to get to know each other well enough. We start to the next time out, we're like, hey, it's no big deal. You know, it's easy either way. I just want to let you know if you could. Why use so many words, but you and I were so good on, yeah, no. And now we're starting to kind of explain. ourselves. And now we start to go like, well, I, no, I'm not going to make it. I can't make it.

Well, I can make it, but I don't want it. And all of a sudden, we're explaining too much. And the relationship's getting complicated. We're like, ah, can we go back to when it was just easy when it was either yeah or no and I wanted to and you didn't put pressure on me and I didn't have expectations on you? And it was just a yes or no. We were cleaning cool, man. Talk so much less. Explain so much less. Let each other down proverbially easier, so much less. And I wasn't let down when you said no, because I didn't need you to say yes to fill me. Those, you know, when we lose that part in a relationship, it's hard to get back to, but we have to, I've been on many relationships to get that, take that slippery slope. And I've have to come back and try and intervene and go, hey, let's make sure we keep our friendships simple.

Part of our friendships based on we don't have to talk every day. We don't have to talk every week. We don't have talk every month. But every time I see it, we pick right back up. And I don't feel like, oh, you anything, you don't owe me nothing. And that's why we keep getting along school, because it's a free exchange. Those friendships, some of those friendships are awesome, you know, but they're not intrusive. And they slowly can become a little more intrusive when you kind of letting someone know through your verb is to feel a little guilty if you tell me no on this.

And you know, and you're starting to use these two adjectives and adverbs and plower up the language. Like, we speak straight then. When do we get to, you know, it's some relationships are hard to maintain like that, but very nice when they are. It makes me think of, because we're coming to a close here, it makes me think of how we speak to children and how we speak to our children, you know. That's kind of, that's the place in life where I'm finding maybe the most ability

and the most courage to be simple, you know, and straightforward to trust that. So that's a beautiful gift. But I'm just wondering about, so you've shared some about how you, how you've been parents, but our final question of every episode is if you could go back to your 12 year old self what would you say or do

you know the question is kind of growing with us because it's a simple question and then I think there's levels to it because what I also like to think about is what would it take for your 12 year old you to listen you know so I'm just curious what would you say or do I believe I'd say

don't be in such a rush to be 13. Which I was. And I can look back at my ambitions for being, you know, to be cool was success and happiness. To be older, be more like my older brother, to be a sir, a father, like my father. These were dreams and ambitions. And now I know that I can't completely say it

I would say that it served, that pursuit served me well. But I do remember, I tell my children, I don't miss out on these years that you are right now. These are first times. You're going to run out of first times. Getting first times right now, man. And don't win a rush because there's only one first time. First kiss.

First his first heartbreak. You're going to get them for the first time. And when we run, rush, and I would say I'm guilty of this, we can rush those first times, and the second time and third time, we can become a little more callous. Maybe. We can lose a certain innocence. And then if you rush it later in life, what adults do is they become cynics. They go from, you become, obviously, very

young age, first heartbreak. We talked about earlier, I love you, I love you back, I break up with you, I became skeptical. I didn't become cynical. But what happens in older life, I think one of the biggest diseases we have with adulthood is cynicism. Depticism, all right. That's knowledge. That's the context. I say, let me measure this. But not cynicism. But I would say don't rush to be 13 because it's coming. Trusting that it's coming. We all think we're going to miss, you know, that that party tonight, God, I know we said be on my nine, but then the boys all went down for another part,

that that party night, that this is going to be the one. And if I miss tonight, I miss it all. well actually you know what they're a little older than you Levi you've had a great day with them let them go do their young male things that are things that are a little older than you and actually by you not be in there they're probably going to have a little more respect for you by you not be in that you said hey I enjoyed my lane today I hang with my friends surfed and these things but now you are you are older guys you're going to go off and there's going to be girls in a party and alcohol go ahead they'll actually go because we get all you know what we want to do we want to overstay our welcome we want to be i always wanted to be the last one to leave everything and that was version of me rushing to be 13 at 13 rushing to be 14 rushing to be 50 in many ways it served me well but if i could go back i'd say don't rush to be 13 to my 12 years self don't rush to be 13 it's coming regardless i think that's excellent matthew this was so wonderful i feel like it flew by it did yeah it did fly but it's fun to talk about this great life stuff.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing. I just want to ask you something about your book cover. Sort of want to, if you have a couple more minutes. I was struck by your description being that you're, it says Matthew is a storyteller, a tree house builder, and a pickle expert. What are the top three attributes of a great pickle?

I just really want to know. Great pickle? Firmly cold. I like him. We got to be cold. No one likes a warm pickle. And, and I'm a mini, I'm a mini coach. Yes, that all sounds great.

I want to hear that sound. like a almost not as stiff as a carrot, but close. No, no, I'm not a, you know, pickles just have so much going on. You're right. And they're young, they're a cucumber. Yeah. I mean, what's a cucumber about besides taking up space in your salad? That has no taste.

It's the door. It's got identity. It comes out of the gate. You know what it is. It's weathered. It's got some scars on it. It's done as time. And it really knows who it is. Cucumber's great.

I don't know. Put them on your eye. They give you a little water, I think. Other than that, just kind of take up room in your salad, but not the pickle. I love this. I'm honestly salivating.

I know. I want to pickle. I'm going to go eat a pickle as soon as we leave. Thank you. Thank you so much for stopping. Hey, Prish. Any time. Thanks for taking the time to talk with me.

Hey, I know y'all said headphones, but I think we're pretty clear. I haven't needed them in the past. Okay. If we're... Hey, y'all got a little nervous. Yeah, you know what? Listen. Wait, just a minute.

Zellupi is like, okay. Stitcher. Why do we do what we do? What makes life meaningful? My name is Elise Lunan, and I'm the author of On Our Best Behavior and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread. I explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to Pulling the Thread from Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative?

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonata Media.