Podcrushed - [Rerun] Rainn Wilson

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

[Original air date: June 7, 2022] Rainn Wilson regales the group with stories of heartbreak, courage, and finding your footing when you *really* don't fit in. The cherry on top: he sings!

Lemonada. Here's how intense it was. I had never been dumped before. And oh my God, that is just the worst feeling in the world. I don't know why I did this, but I always used to throw my dirty clothes on the floor of this closet. And I would sleep in my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet. Oh, Ray.

You were like literally like stewing in it. Yeah. And it was, I would do that for days at a time. It must have been a big closet. I mean, you said, You were tall, right? It was six feet long, yeah. Or you were really scrunched up.

I'm just thinking about the dimensions of the closet. This is Pod Crush. The podcast that takes the sting out of rejection, one crushing middle school story at a time. And where guests share their teenage memories, both meaningful and mortifying. And we're your hosts. I'm Nava, a former middle school director. I'm Sophie, a former fifth grade teacher. And I'm Penn, a middle school dropout.

We're just three beehis who are living in Brooklyn. Wanting to make stuff together. with a particular fondness for awkward nostalgia. Well, I struggle with nostalgia. I'm here for the therapy. Bscien-ting-ting-win-bin-blim-blin-pe-bril. Guys, I'm actually drinking chicken soup. I shouldn't have said drinking, should I have?

But no, I have COVID. And I will say that chicken soup has felt like actual medicine. It feels like there's drugs in it. It makes me like sleepy and happy. And because your assistant smashes up Ambien, right? Oh, that's it. See, this is why I didn't get an assistant until recently. I asked for uppers, not downers.

Shout out Charlie, the sweetest guy. I want to have a one-on-one talk with Penn's assistant. You'd be like, how are you? Are you okay? He's like, I'm fine. I barely even talk to me. Yeah, yeah. But anyways, our guest today.

But anyways, our guest today is Rain Wilson. So Rain is, when you know him, it's really easy to forget this. But he's a low-key icon and is known for, I mean, a lot of, I think, very memorable roles and some pretty iconic comedies like Galaxy Quest. Sir, I am Lank, senior requisition officer. Juno. Their test today, Mama Bear. Urego is Prego.

No doubt about it. And the rocker. Yeah, bouncing it down. Woo! What does that mean? I have no idea. Let's take five. But none. None is beloved or globally iconic as Dwight Shrewt in the U.S. version of the office. What is the most inspiring thing I ever said to you? Don't be an idiot. It changed my life.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, would an idiot do that? And if they would, I do not do that thing. We actually drove to Rain's home to have the interview, and we had a lot of gear. And Sophie's husband, David, was initially one of the hosts of the... the show and he was also the engineer. And David was like the only one who knew how to set everything up. So we get to Rain's house. We go to his office. It's kind of a small space. We were like a battalion funneling into his office. And David is setting things up as Rain is watching in like wonder and disgust sort of simultaneously. Like why are there so many people in my office? Why is there so much gear?

Why are there so many hosts? Because he recorded like three or four different podcasts and he's just like he's got a mic and he's set up and he's all good. And Rain goes, wow, this is an intense setup. And Penn kind of like trying to diffuse the energy. It was like, actually, you know, it looks like a lot. It's not actually a lot. And Rain, there's a pause. And he just goes, no, it's a lot.

But, but, rain was super lovely in the interview. And then at the end of the interview, he brought us all bags of macadamian nuts that he grows on his farm. Yeah, those macadamian nuts are amazing. And needless to say, David Quartz, as a host. Today's story is a story of growth, of humility and grace and, and not for nothing, of a kind of male intimacy. I don't know.

I love it. With no further ado, we bring you dancing with the devil in the details. Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser than Me with Cindy Lauper on Amazon Music. Cindy may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ plus advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now only on Amazon music included with Prime. I'm Blake Mikoski. As the founder of Tom Shoes, I helped millions of people and built a global brand.

But selling my company cost me my purpose and nearly my life. I completely fell apart. I spent years chasing a single cure that would fix me, only to realize there is no magic pill. My new podcast is a look at how dark it can get and also the daily choices that we can make to lead us back to ourselves. No magic pill is out now. If this were wrestling, it would be God giving my ego a leg drop,

off the top rope. Now let's back up and set this story up a bit, okay? I grew up in the knuckle of the hood. You either had to be able to fight or, well, actually, I'm not sure what other option you had. So now here I am a young, angry sixth grader who had been dropping these little demons since I was born.

I took karate and had a bunch of older cousins, so it was some hood Bruce Lee type shit. So I had no fear of any kid on the block. Needless to say, this isn't a story about how badass I was so you know where we're heading. but don't jump ahead because the devil is in the details. So, one day, at recess, there were a bunch of eighth graders playing football.

And we're out there on concrete for context, so CTE was as common as breathing. And here I am doing nothing in the corner of the courtyard, and I feel a ball, smack the back of my young, precious head. I turn around. I see exactly go through it. So there's only one option. I run up to my man. remember he's twice as big as me and I'm about to leg sweep him on the ground but as I'm going at him he somehow Uno reverses me and manages to dip me like I'm his tangled partner nestling my small head

in his big old hand as he whispers my bad bro heartbeats yeah no problem man heartbeats I cried that night that's the part of the story I don't tell in my eyes every Every kid I ever beat was every kid I couldn't touch. So when I ran up to that bearded eighth grader, to me, I'm really running up to a man who'd beat me for looking at him in the eyes too long. I don't know how, but he saw me. He saw this coming at him. And what I got was a double black belt move in compassion, Chuck Norris of emotional maturity. I can't even look at the keyboard too long without feeling anxiety, hence the days it took me to write this.

I'm better now, or at least mildly taller. That day in the sixth grade, I received grace from a kid that didn't know me, but for me, it was the first time I'd gotten it from the person I imagined I was fighting. Rain, thank you so much for welcoming us into your home so we can welcome you to our podcast. That's a lot of welcoming, but you are most welcome. Thanks. So can you tell us a little bit about what eighth grade Rain was like? what he was thinking about. Oh, dear Lord.

Dear Lord, 8th grade reign. Well, it's very funny that you mentioned 8th grade because just the other day I found some old papers and I found a story I wrote when I was in the 8th grade for creative writing class. It's sitting in the other room on my wife's desk. It's called Sword of the Usurper. Wow, very sophisticated.

was really into like fantasy and science fiction and so I wrote my first fantasy story so um now I'm going to read it to you no but yeah so I you know it's so funny you bring this up because as we were kind of getting ready for this conversation I was just thinking about how different middle school was for me in the late 70s than it is right now it was um it was there was were kind of like bloody beatdowns in the hallways at least once a week if not two or three times a week. Oh, that still happens. I'm pretty sure that still happens. I don't know. Not in the same. I mean, that's that. I don't know. I'm Staten Island it does. I have some stories for you. Okay. All right. All right. Yeah, I don't, none of my son's friends or anyone I know has

ever even seen a fight in, in a hallway. So I'm sure there are places. But, that was such a regular part of life of like seeing teeth fly out of people's mouths and blood unlockers. And the teachers would come out like, come on, kids, go to the principal's office. They'd kind of, like, it just was like de rigour. You know, it's like, oh, here we go again. And the kid is like an eyes hanging out of their socket, you know. And they're like, oh, just go to the principal's office.

But I, so eighth grade, Rain Wilson was about as big a geek as you could possibly imagine. I was on the pottery club. I was on the chess team. I would play Dungeons and Dragons all weekend long. And I played clarinet and bassoon in the band. And, yeah, and it went on from there. went to high school and joined model United Nations and the computer club.

I mean, it was, yeah, I was, I was completely, and there was nothing cool about being a nerd back then. That was like, you were a loser. Nerds were just losers. There was not like any nerd rock stars or nerd billionaires or Silicon Valley or people with Twitch channels or, you know, gamers or anything. You just, and you were a nerd and you were a nerd and you were just. the worst scum on the area.

And so, yeah. So, but that was, but I loved it. You know, I loved my nerdy friends and I loved, you know, doing nerdy things. And I still do to this day. So I embraced it early on. How many, when you say nerdy friend, like, did you have like two close friends, three close friends? Was it like, like I'm trying to imagine that group? I had one very close friend named John Valadez. And then we had a posse, mostly the ducy, mostly the ducous. Dungeons and Dragons posse.

You would play together, right? Yep, mm-hmm. And we did intensives. I mean, we would, school would be over and we would start playing at like 6 p.m. on a Friday night. We'd go till at least midnight. Then we'd play Saturday from like 11 to 11. Wow.

And then Sunday, one guy, Sean Higgins always had to go to church. So after church, like one or two p.m. to like 7 p.m. And then we would do all our homework from like 7 to 10 p.m. a Sunday night and get that done with. But that was at least two to three weekends a month for years. Like to me that sounds richly imaginative and social and fun, like a great way for young people to spend their time. I can imagine at the time parents might have looked at that sort of game playing, role-playing as that generation's version of, say, the screens we have now, the iPhone, whatever that might.

I mean, some version of it. Sure. Like, how would you compare that to the way that maybe a lot of kids in middle school are really into gaming now, you know, that's like not the, it's, it's not that it's not exercising some of the same muscles, but it's definitely not the same. Yeah, it's not the same. It is much more imaginative than staring at a screen. you're creating characters and imaginative scenarios and fighting monsters.

And yeah, you have little figurines on a table or something like that, but you're imagining all. When you're playing a video game, it's all right there. You see what it is. If there's a monster in a video game or there's a gun or a sword, it's right there on the screen. There is a social element to gaming, which I think is positive. When you get on the headphones with your friends and you all gather and you're, you know, shooting people or killing monsters.

or something like that together. But also parenting was very different back then. This whole idea of like helicopter parenting of parents like being really, really interested in every choice and decision you're making as a kid and you're in the course of your education. That didn't exist. So parents didn't understand it. But I know like my parents, they were just glad to have me out of their hair. And there's, well, it's better than doing drugs.

So let them go. I don't understand what the hell they're doing with these little figurines of elves. But God bless them. And but they didn't really, there's not really curfews. They're just like, you know, come back, you know, find your way back. It starts to get dark, head back for dinner. There wasn't, now it's kind of like tracking devices on kids and where are you every minute. and it was just, it was a very different scene.

I wonder what you're, as a comedian, like what your relationship to embarrassment, it has been as an adult, but then also as a tween, like we're learning more about you in school. I'm in Matt, I'm like, I'm developing a really sweet picture of you carrying your bassoon and your pottery equipment. Which is just hard physically to carry a buss. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a workout.

Yeah. So I'm just, I'm wondering what, how have you dealt with embarrassment over the years? what's your relationship to it? Yeah, it's, you know, I think comedy, comedic performers are a strange breed. I described, you know, how kind of rough and tumble my school was and how nerdy I was. And I was kind of spent most of my time terrified. But at the same time, I'm remembering the eighth grade talent show where my friend John Valid is an eye, we found his sister took baton twirling classes.

she had a little 45 record and it was a song called Watch Me Twirl My Baton for you And it was Watch me twirl my baton for you It is bright and shiny new Under one leg and then up high Behind my back now I will try How about that?

I did it right I must always hold on tight When I march it is high and low in a parade or in a show. Wow. We thought this was just so hysterical that my friend John and I, we got tutus and batons.

And for our eighth grade talent show, we got a record player on stage and put that on. And then we choreographed a dance in tutus with batons. Wow. Wow. And how to go over?

It went over like gangbusters. Like we really should have won the talent show, but I think the teacher judges were like, well, we should give it to the girl who sang the beautiful Judy Collins song and actually had some talent. But the kids are like, oh, we were like. So here's this weird thing where I was really self-conscious and nerdy, pimply and gawky,

and at the same time I was willing to twirl a baton on stage in front of people. In a tutu. In a tutu. So it's this weird, it's this weird thing that performers have. So I spent so much of my youth really self-conscious about my looks. And I was like I had this giant head and this really skinny body.

Fortunately, my body is fleshed out to disguise the fact that my head is so huge in my middle age. So, but at the same time, I was a class class. because I also realized that, you know, I could make people laugh and they would actually laugh and like me, you know, if I got the giant globe out of the globe stand and rolled it down the aisle of my history class towards the teacher. And they guffawed at that. And so there's just been this constant dance in my life of, you know, low. self-esteem and feeling like a misfit and yet doing all these kind of outrageous things to

get attention and which helped me build my voice. And that's kind of who I am today. And I'm really actually happy around that because it's who I am. Lately, I've been so intentional about what I wear every day, really wanting every day to feel like a moment. I'm leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable, and still put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler and way more fun. Quince has been my go-to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Quince makes it easy to refresh your every day this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra-soft denim. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start

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for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. That's QI-N-Ce.com slash podcrush for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. One of the ways that we know each other is is through the Baha'i faith. So growing up, as an American kid in the 70s, I mean, I don't know how much you identified as a Baha'i at that age, but coming from a family that was this, you know, a minority religious identity. Yeah. Did it contribute to you feeling like I have this other quality that is like, that is maybe unusual or unknown, which I have to explain, or it's something that I don't think about much?

And then it's also being that it is a body of teachings and writings of spiritual sustenance. I mean, it can also provide support in ways. So, like, how did being a Baha'i contribute to your sense of identity then? You know, as you're saying that, I was like, wow, here's this really weird, gawky, misfit, nerdy kid. And then on top of that, my parents were Baha'is. And I was the member of this kind of weird sounding religion, a very loving, inclusive, kind of, quote unquote, normal faith. If you explore it, there's nothing really that weird about. it but certainly a weird sounding name so that was this whole other level of of me just not fitting in

and it was a combination of being really mortified and embarrassed about the fact that i was a bahai and at the same time i i i felt it deeply in in my heart um the truth of it of the teachings and writings of bahawah the founder of the paha'i faith and wanted to share my faith with people and um did you have conversations about god with your friends like the way that you talk to your other friend in d and d who like had the peace out for like sunday school on sundays yeah did you like how were those conversations between you guys did you talk about god did you talk about spirituality did you know we did you know we actually did and that was another thing that was different about the 70s is that people were open to discussions around spirituality and bigger ideas

And two of my nerdy little D&D friends later became Baha'is. Wow. I think for short amounts of time, I'm not sure how long it lasted, but John and Sean both eventually became Baha'i. And that came out of, you know, long discussions around Baha'i ideas and going to, you know, Baha'i youth events, service projects, and kind of seeing the diversity and the enthusiasm towards making the world a better place.

So, yeah. One way to look at this period of life is like it's the first time you start experiencing these feelings of love and rejection, which are some of the greatest teachers in this life, you know? Like just those feelings of love and affection and then how they get crushed. You know, so, you know, you don't have to go into any details you're unwilling, but I think just, yeah, like, what's a, what's a, do you remember your first crush?

Um, I had, I don't really remember my first crush as weird as that sounds. I, I had a lot of crushes on cute girls through like, you know, sixth and seventh and eighth grade and, but I didn't. And, you know, again, I didn't really think anyone would want to have me as a boyfriend. I wasn't boyfriend material. I was busy on the weekends as we've gone into, you know. Exactly. You're a working man. Yeah.

So, but then I had a few little dates here and there with some handholdings. And then when I was 16, I had a girlfriend in Seattle. And she was the smartest girl in the school named Jill. And, but she was pretty and we had a really nice time together, very innocent, uh, relationship. And then when I went to Chicago, then I started to have more relationships. And that's when I got my heartbroken. Um, and one was this girl, Tria. And she was like the first person I met at the high school.

And I was just totally smitten with her. And then she was actually interested in me. And we went out for a while. while and I was just, I was hooked. I mean, she was amazed. She was funny and she played me Joni Mitchell records and she played the piano and she danced. And I was just like, oh my God.

Johnny Mitchell, that's, yeah, that's formative right there. Right? And then she dumped me for John Sherman. Oh, John. We were doing this play called Time Out for Ginger. So many kids tried out for it. They did two casts. We had rotating casts.

So one night it was cast one and then it was cast two. And the dad on cast one was me. And the dad in cast two was John Sherman. So she left and she was assistant director and she left me for John Sherman. But here's what's funny. Tria and I are now like best friends. Wow. Did you reconnect or did you like stay friends?

We've always been in touch. That's great. That's cool. And we're really close and we talk all the things. time and I'm close with her husband and she's close with my wife and and I just like we just know each other really really deeply was there a period of like intense rejection you felt after that you had to recover from here's how intense it was I had never been dumped before and oh my god that is just the worst feeling in the world I don't know why I did this but I always used to throw my dirty clothes on the

floor of my this closet and it was kind of those closets that had like a cord doors so you can open the doors and I would sleep in my dirty clothes on the floor of the closet. Oh, right. During this period of rejection. You were like literally like stewing in it. Yeah. And it was, I would do that for for days at a time. I would just, I would just, I would just be in there.

It must have been a big closet. I mean, you said you were tall, right? It was six feet long. Or you were really scrunched up. I'm just thinking about the dimension. There's some nice closet. Do I mean to draw you a sketch? Yeah.

Which way the door is open? Rain, I have a related question that I just really like to ask married people. I'm not married and hope to be one day and trying to learn about it. What is really good relationship advice that you've gotten? And what is really bad relationship advice that you've gotten? Well, I think bad relationship advice is this whole thing of like, we never fight. Like, we never fight. We never, like, that's bullshit.

And then something's really wrong because, there's going to be resolving conflict is a central part of what it is to be in relationship with someone. So difficulty in conflict and budding heads is part of what intimacy is about. So that's true intimacy is being able to get through that, you know, and it's hard. It's hard work. It's difficult. And I think for a lot of people, there's a vision. Maybe it's in television in the movies.

or whatever that, you know, if you find your quote unquote soulmate, that you're never going to have conflict. And it's just going to be romance and love and beauty and, you know, and instant unity. But, you know, it's, that's really difficult. I think another misconception about fighting is that, or, you know, struggle in a relationship, like resolving conflict, as you say, is that it has to look like what you then do see in the movies,

which is like the sort of romanticization. of rage and conflict. And like, you know, you see actors just tearing up this furniture in a scene and it's so persuasive. And I think, like, I think it's in a way, you know, my experience of resolving conflict and relationship when it works is, like, coming to understand that the way that, like, resolution really looks is not, like, winning an argument.

I think the problem with so many of the ways that we look at arguments is like it's almost like debate rather than consultation. It's like it's competition rather than cooperation. That's my sense. It's like, you know, in my marriage, it's like if something comes to a fight, then it's like, well, it's not so much about fighting through it, which has happened, or trying to win a fight, which has happened. not winning the fight but trying to win. It's more like, why do I feel the need to fight right now? Yeah. You know, what's happening in me where I feel unsafe

or I feel untrusting or I feel unwilling and to the point that I'm like, I'm angry? You know, I think that's transforming dysfunction into function, I think. I don't know, that's my perspective. No, that's, yeah, that's well said. I would agree with that. In terms of good advice, again, going to this idea of community that if you look at marriage,

and that doesn't mean you have to like have a ceremony to get married, but you look at like really long-term partnership, there's this great book that was really popular in like the 80s and 90s called The Road Less Traveled. And it's I highly recommend it to everyone. It's a really brilliant book. It's not a self-help. It's not a gooey self-help book. It's got real psychology in it.

but he talks about marriage being two people supporting each other's spiritual journey. So this idea that you're, there's something bigger than the marriage. The marriage is not just you and me and love and we have sex and we have a good time together and we like the same shows. Like you're on a journey together and you're supporting each other on that journey. You're mutually supporting each other. So again, it's going for something larger. kind of bigger than the two of you, really.

So I thought that was very good. So you mean like a mini-series rather than a show? You've got to like the same miniseries. I'm struggling to follow. Trilogy? It's TV analogy. No, it's like Gray's Anatomy. It's going to be on for 25 years.

Rain, I have a question for you. I think something that everyone grapples with is this kind of dance between fate and free will, choice and agency, like effort and confirmation, and then things just going in a completely unexpected route, even when you've, like, put in all the effort. So what has sort of been in your life, like a big plot twist or something that went in a completely different direction than you had anticipated? But that was, like, important. And, like, what could you learn from that? Wow. That's such a great question. I think that there's so many different stories like that.

Like, let's just go with, I'll throw out some stories about being an actor, okay? When I look back on it now from middle age, there were so many things that needed to line up for me to become an actor. One is we moved when I was 16 from Seattle to Chicago. My parents, speaking in the Baha'i Faith, my parents started to work at the Baha'i National Center. And we went to a nearby high school and it had like the most, amazing drama program like in the country. This high school called Nutriere High School as a legendary theater program. And I'd always wanted to do some acting.

I'd never really done acting other than the two-toes and the batons. And so here I was and I was in an acting class and I had these incredible acting teachers. And that was, that was, so that's, that's amazing. That was just pure happenstance. if I never had made that move, I would probably be a high school English teacher in suburban Seattle. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's an awesome profession, but I wouldn't have been an actor if I had stayed in Seattle. The other thing that happened is, you know, when I was started to kind of be a little bit good at it and get cast and make people laugh, I went into my drama teacher when I was 17 and I said, hey, Mrs. Adams,

do you think that maybe one day I could potentially be a professional actor? And I was so nervous and I was really insecure and asking her this and she was like, oh, yes, I think you could. Yes, you have lots of talent, but you have to travel the world and you need to fall in love and read books

and have adventures, but yes, you must work at it and study and just keep studying. And my heart was just filled with like, light and hope and and that carried me, you know, that helped me so much. But what if she had said, well, it's tough. Yeah, it's a tough road. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Good luck with that. You know, maybe, you know, then maybe I would have been less motivated, you know, less inspired. It's so interesting how, I mean, I've heard similar stories for a lot of people. Thinking about my grandfather, he is a writer,

or was a writer. And the reason he became a writer is because his high school English teacher read a piece of his writing and said, you could do this professionally one day. And then that just sent him down that path. And I think I don't know if adults always realize the effect that their words and their passion can have on young people. Your encouragement.

Encouragement and inspiration. This is part of the problem these days is it's so. it's so easy to be cynical. Like it's just the whole world is kind of set up to be for you to be cynical. And I know it's something I struggle with. It's an easy fallback position and be like, oh.

It's cool. We're still trying to fit in in some way. Yeah. It's a very easy skin for me to dawn, by the way. You know, especially when I'm in interviews or I'm in, because I actually have great faith and optimism and hope and sweetness. It's sometimes hard to communicate

those parts of yourself as much as being like, yeah, yeah, fuck that. man. It's unfortunate. It really is. But, you know, something you were just saying about, like, the role of older people, of adults, and I'm even thinking, like, young adults in encouraging people going through this time, this, like, middle school era, what would you say to yourself then, you know?

I mean, I don't think the point is, is, like, what would you change? Because that's life, right? but like what was what was something that you were struggling with the most then that you would that that looking back you're like oh you know it's taken me so long to learn this what would you tell yourself then to give yourself some relief and encouragement? There's a number of things, but the first thing that popped into my head was, you know, so I'm describing this kid that always was like putting on two-toes and, you know, rolling globes down the aisle and with batons and, you know, being a clown and trying to make people laugh.

And so when I was studying acting, I was always doing the same thing. I was always like trying to do stuff. I was always working hard to quote unquote entertain and working hard to be liked. And I guess if I could say anything to like eighth grade reign, I would put my arm around his shoulder and just be like, you know, you are lovable, you are likable, just as you are.

You don't have to do anything. You don't have to perform to be lovable. Like you're okay just as you are. And I had to learn that lesson as an actor When I went to acting school, I was always working hard like in a kind of a sweaty, performative way. And my acting teacher said to me like,

you know, Rain, what are you doing? You know, you're pushing so much. Like, you're interesting. You don't have to do much. You don't have to do anything. And I broke down in tears. Like, I broke down in the class, just sobbing because I really part of acting, and you know this pen too,

there's a therapy aspect to being an actor. Absolutely. You're using yourself so much. You're using your body and your memories and your emotions. That's a very spiritual thing to do. It's a blessing when it's a blessing. Yeah. Yeah.

So, and I still, it took me years, but that's been a, you know, a big lesson for me. Like, I still have to remind myself like, I'm interesting. I'm lovable. I'm okay. I don't need to do all this stuff all the time in order to kind of get attention and affection and to be able to do my craft. For people at that age,

I'm wondering like, what are some of the things about our culture? What is a thing about our culture that makes feeling lovable hard? And particularly for that age. Because an adult, anybody can tell you something, but you ultimately have to live through it to learn it. you know so i'm just wondering like for those out there going through this time or they're older and it's just the same the same lesson what are some of those forces that make it so hard to feel

just to accept yourself and feel lovable and what is a way to combat one of those forces that's deep man i'd a big question yeah that's a big one maybe it's just the question that we don't have to answer i'm literally thinking about it yeah yeah yeah I'm just thinking about it. I don't know. I don't know what that is. But I, you know, the one thing that just popped into my head of like, why do we struggle with this so much?

Have humans always struggled with this? Maybe they have. But I think that not that things in the olden days were like necessarily golden days, but I imagine that kids didn't deal with this as much when they had really strong communities. because if you have a community, you're buoyed and lifted by that community, your tribe or your extended family life, you know, where... It used to be without community.

There was no way of subsisting, I think. Like, we've never been in such an isolated, individualistic. Like, you can live on your own in a way that you never used to be able to. It's a good point. We're social creatures and we need, you know, we need those Dungeons and Dragons games. I mean, that was more my family than my family was, you know. But creating community is really important for teens and being feeling a part of something. We just love to feel a part of something.

Then we get our identity of like, I'm a part of this thing that's bigger than me. Yeah. And I want to contribute to that. And then you feel valuable. Well, thank you, Ray. Thank you for coming on our show, which is taking place in your house today. Yes. Thank you for coming. I think this was a particularly nostalgic conversation.

I mean, there's nostalgia in all of them. But there was something about his nerddom. Oh, yeah. That felt like I was living in the beginning of stranger things, which is, by the way, where evidently most people want to live. And props to rain, because he really, like, went to those memories and stayed in them with us. And it was kind of tender and sweet. Very much, very much.

I love that Rain goes all in. You know, he'd start a bit, and I'd expected him to trail off, but he just kept going. He finished the whole song. Yeah, that was actually what I enjoyed the most was hearing Rain sing that song. It was so sweet, and I just love it when a guest sings. Well, it's interesting you say that because our next test is... I want everybody to like me and to be impressed by everything I do. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

I can sing even more than Ray. Yeah, no, you like Rain? Okay, well, watch what I can do. Layton was down to Earth. I'm more down to Earth. This is my show. Can I just say, I actually played Dungeons and Dragons for a little bit. Really?

And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it a lot. And so I was living vicariously through Rain's prototypical nerddom. I felt the joy and the sort of the camaraderie between those boys, you know? One of my favorite parts of the interview with Rain was when he gave marriage advice to Naba. I loved his advice. It was that some people say that you shouldn't fight, and he felt like that was BS, and that having conflict and being able to resolve conflict is a really important skill and something that creates intimacy. And I think it was really valuable advice.

Tell us about your most explosive fight with David and Domino. Go. Well, it was yesterday. I'm just kidding. It actually was, yeah. No, but I actually. was thinking like, wow, we're getting really good at diminishing the time between like an intense argument and then resolving it. That's, that's what it is. It's recovery time. But, but you, dear

listener, we hope that your recovery time, this is a good segue, guys, just wait. We hope that your recovery between episodes is no less, wait, no, no longer that, wait, I got it, no longer than a week. Seven days. Next, what is it, Friday? Wednesday, I don't know what day

this episode is coming out. Wednesday. Wednesdays. Um, Dear reader, no. Oh, shit. You know,

you can catch Rain Wilson in the upcoming movie Weird, the Al Yankovic story, or his podcast metaphysical milkshake that he co-hosts with Reza Aslan, or his podcast

Radio Rental, which explores strange crimes and all things paranormal, or just follow them on socials. Podcrush is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navakavalen, and Sophie Ansari. Our executive producer is Nora Richie from Stitcher. Our lead producer and editor is David Ansari.

Our secondary editor is Sharaf and Twizzle. Special thanks to Peter Clowney, VP of Content at Stitcher, Eric Eddings, Director of Lifestyle Programming at Stitcher, Jared O'Connell and Brendan Bryans for the tech support, and Shruti Marante, who transcribes our tape. Podcush was created by Navakivalin and is executive produced by Penn Badgley and Navakavalin and produced by Sophie and Sari. This podcast is a ninth mode production. Be sure to subscribe to Podcrush. You can find us on Stitcher,

the Serious XM app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you'd like to submit a middle school story, go to podcrush.com and give us every detail. And while you're online, be sure to follow us on socials, or we're telling everyone that your mom still walks you to the bus stop. You don't want that. It's at Podcrush, spelled how it sounds. And our personals are at Phembadjley, at Nava, that's Navajo with three ends and at Scribble by Sophie. And we're out. See you next week. Bye.

Doing that again, even more conversation. Yeah, do you want to try? It was good, but just another one. Just another way. It's a touch less red and more said. Oh. Wow. That's a new.

A touch less bad and more rad. Oh, snap. Less shit, more it. That's pretty good. Sophie, come on. Give us a rhyme. I'm like, oh, shit. I don't have anything here.

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