Podcrushed - [Rerun] Ziwe

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

[Original air date: December 20, 2023] In our Season 2 finale the one and only Ziwe stops by! Her legendary sharp wit and inimitable comedic voice are on display as she showers us with stories of adolescence and coming of age. She shares why being completely herself has been critical to her career, an update on her future foray into pop stardom, and why the keys to success are within our own reach.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lemonada And so I used to wear these Grammy panties that would hike up to my chest and I remember one day sitting out at lunch table and my Grammy panties being fully exposed and everyone at the lunch table laughing at me ah ha ha look at our panties and me just being like oh I meant to show them

and laughing it off and that was like my first memory of me using comedy to deflect trauma Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties.

And high school. And then we would have been super close in college. And then we're going to get married and have kids. Wait, what are we talking about? In the darkest period of the calendar year, we come to you. Just days before the eve of the equinox, the final episode. episode of the second season of Pod Crushed. It is indeed the finale.

I come to you now with my co-host Navakhavelin. Nowba, how are you? Hello. I feel like I can't follow that. You can't. You can't. No, how are the shorter days treating you right now? How are your dogs?

Yeah. My little dog, Louis, got in a little accident this morning. so, you know, everyone pray for Louis, although by the time this is out, he should be okay. The shorter days definitely throw me. We really got to start. We got to start. Yeah, pray for Louis. Pray for Louie. Let's make a trend. If it's a dog, I feel like everybody who's understanding be frustrated with the ideas of thoughts and prayers,

I'd be like, no, no, I'll pray for a dog. I'll totally pray for a dog, obviously. Yeah. The shorter days throw me. Like at 6 p.m. I'm like, it's 10. We're wrapping. We're going to bed, right? Yeah.

How are they treating you? recently my toddler has been going to bed at ungodly hours and I don't know what I think it's I think it is the day change but there's just something I don't know you know maybe stop spiking his food with rum maybe he'll relax I'm trying to keep his development I'm trying to slow it down so I don't have more to do yeah no I mean even though even though you know I don't celebrate Christmas traditionally I just

it is my favorite time of the year It's just beautiful. I love it. What a heathen. Yeah, I know. Just kidding, just kidding. I love Christmas. I love the.

I just love, yeah, I love it. Speaking of things that I, segue, segue, segue to the guest, always, my strong suit, we'll say. Yeah. No, really, but coming to us, when times are darkest, who do we need? A ray of light, like Z-way. Yeah. We have Z-way. is more needed.

I feel like if you listen to us, you know who she is. If you don't, she's really had a meteoric rise as a comedian and writer, but a mononym, as a mononymatic, can you say that?

As a mono, she's a, she's a, she's a multisyllabic mononym, multi-hyphenate. Huge talent. She's, she is,

I think, a genius. she agreed to come on. Zeeway, who is typically the one interviewing others, known now iconic for her interview style, she did not once make me feel uncomfortable, which was so gracious of her. She did not take any veiled staves. She was just a gracious guest and really happy to be here, it seemed like.

We were so happy to have her. and you gotta try. And what better way than with a delicious pre-organic coffee? Starting with just $1 all day, every day now until December 31st. You gotta try breakfast at A&W. At participating A&W locations in Ontario. Have you ever watched someone you love struggle with addiction and had no idea what to do? I'm Stephanie Whittleswax, and I certainly have.

My show last day started with a question I've been asking myself. ever since I lost my brother Harris to a heroin overdose. What could have saved him? After years of talking to experts, advocates, and people in recovery, I've written the answers into my new book, Last Day, How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis. If you've ever been impacted by addiction or you want to better understand this crisis or you're just a human who cares about other humans, this book is for you. Get your copy of Last Day at bit.com slash last day book or wherever books are audiobooks are sold. You wrote yourself, I'm going to quote you, I create art to heal my inner child,

the young girl that did not have the words to explain the world herself. So I think this is very relatable and beautiful for so many people. Thank you. Can you tell us about that 12, 13-year-old Zeeway who, what words do you have now that she did not have? I just have the vocabulary to point out what was really obvious to. me at the time. So I would find myself as a 12-year-old in really awkward conversations. Oh my gosh, one time particularly, I remember I was at the Loop, AMC Theater in Methuen, Massachusetts. And me and my friend Andrew are walking, and this little girl is playing and she drops her wallet.

And I see it. I don't say anything and we just keep walking. And then a minute later, a mom approaches me and says, hey, do you know where my daughter's wallet is? And I was like, I saw her drop it. And she's like, did you take it? And like, no. And she, of all the, the people in this entire theater, she, like, accosted me. And as a child, you're like, that was weird. But as an adult, you're like, oh, wait, like, this is a really political act. And so I went, you know, when that happened, it took me maybe two hours to be like, wait a second, she's the bad guy. And I wish I had defended myself. I honestly was trying to help her. I was like, oh, the wallet was over there. I saw it two minutes ago. It was green, right?

Go back. Hurry. And it's like, I should have, like, like, kicked her in the shin or something. Like, I was a kid, I was 12. Yeah, totally. Like, I wasn't responsible for her little daughter's little wallet. So I think as I get older, I have more confidence and more of an understanding of the world around me and how I fit into that world. And as a result, I can, like, engage with people in a way that, like, felt so awkward. And I was, I avoided, like, the plague when I was younger. See, way, I'm curious, sort of in your adult self-assessment, what were your best traits as a 12 and 13?

18 year old and what do you think you were like struggling with the most? My best I mean my best traits were that I'm funny and so I was a really funny child and I even then I got some zingers in in a way that were like too truthful and hurtful but needed to happen and my worst

traits I mean I've always believe it or not I've always been shy which it seems uncharacter I can actually in the best way I can feel that now in person in a way that is not you know what you're doing when you're like, you know, in your work.

Totally. You know, you've spoken about this before, so I was like, yeah, I believe her. But I can feel that now, which I think is great because that's your humanity. That's my humanity. People expect me to walk into a room and uppercut everyone.

And it's like, no, I am just a tiny little 19-year-old girl. Yeah, you actually, you're so young. I'm so, I'm, well, I'm not actually 19. You know that right. Sorry, hang on. No, I'm 19 for the record. No, so it's right here. You're 31.

right? Gougu Gaga. Yes. But seriously, like that's, that's, you know, you seem to be getting this experience where people are, I don't know, intimidated, partly because of just the nature of how you interview people, you know, like, there's so many things.

There's the stuff that you referenced before, like inherent racism, all this stuff. Is that lessening? Are you having, or is it being magnified? As you kind of, like, you know, just the expectation when you're, come into a room. That is a great question. I talked about this yesterday with someone because my interview I've been doing since 2016, but I wish I could say that I'm this genius maestro that

pioneered a new discourse of questions. But the truth is, it's based on like my trauma and how I engage with people privately. I just put that in front of a camera. So it is not changing. It's not changing. People have always felt that energy around me. And now I'm able to codify it in a way that is crystal clear. But if there is no show, no interview,

this would always be the dynamic I've had since my childhood. Okay, so that's interesting. So let's go back to where we were on like, you know, again, you in middle school. Yes. You had this vibe? I felt others feel it towards me. But I did not walk around like, I have such power!

You know, but maybe culturally I'm Nigerian and Nigerians are very direct. Some would say rude people. And so as a result, like I was raised by my parents in America and I, some of their, the way of communication rubbed off on me. And so maybe that's it. Maybe the fact that my parents were always like really brash and really to the point, like it's something that I take in every conversation and that's the thing that people are feeling.

Yeah. Maybe. You'd have to ask, you'd have to survey 100. people and be like, what's your problem with her? And they'd be like nothing. She's perfect. Is it true that you went to an elite boarding school? And if so, I think you might be our first guest. So we're kind of curious just what that whole experience was like.

Well, so I became a huge fan of you Penn. Did you really? Of course. Oh, you don't know that I'm a fan. So let's be clear, I'm a huge fan of your work. I think you're a fantastic actor. Oh, thank you. Oh, you freaked it on you. Amazing.

You're such a good actor. I love your feature film experience as well. You've had a couple spots that have been really cool and underappreciated. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. And then I first came across your work in Gossip Girl. And I went to prep school. And Gossip Girl is sort of like it ages these teenagers up in a way that is really controversial and worrying to much parents' chagrin.

And I was alive in that environment as a boarding school student as well. that's okay so so tell us a bit more about it wasn't as risque like no no no of course of course but but i mean one of the ways you couched it in your book is like you you've lived away from home since you were 14 yes i have that's not what everybody gets yeah i like for instance i was not living away from home but i haven't really gone to school since i was 14 about and you know so i can under i can understand some of those strange forms of independence but to literally just not be home i mean So what was that like? And how do you think that maybe influenced you?

I think there's, I mean, I'm independent. I get really mad at people who are not independent. Like get it together, you baby. Like, what would you do if no one was here to help you? I've dated a lot of guys where I'm like, how are you not dead? I'm deeply concerned for you. I was doing this at 15 years old. But then I think to mention your point about like how people,

interact with me and how that's changed over time, it's like I've had a really crystal clear sense of me as an individual and me in the way that my individuality has moved through multiple institutions. And so that was really something that happened in my boarding school time specifically. Because when you live at home in elementary school, your parents are your heroes. Like the capital of the universe was Boston, Massachusetts. What do I know? And then you move out of that space and you're like, well, the laws of the world aren't my parents' laws. Like the things that they watch aren't the things everyone watches, the music that they watch, the religion.

So it really expands your mind at a really crucial age. And so that was just, that sort of allowed me to be an adult, maybe too soon. But it gave me some wisdom. We've had a few people on who are like real experts in their field of like, say, family therapy, psychology, this kind of stuff. I'm thinking of two in particular, one was Dr. Gabbermate, the other was Dr. Stan Tatkin, and they talk a lot about attachment theory and just how, like, you know, we're human beings. It's a scientific way, I think, of just saying, like, it's in our nature to love.

Like, we get attached to whoever we're closest to, physically. In the beginning, it's our parents, but then if we move away, did you start to form, were you able to form strong relationships there? Did you, you know, what were your friendships like? Yeah, I had a, my strong. longest relationships are with the people I went to boarding school. Are you saying still? Still?

To this day. My friend Andrew is probably one of my closest friends and we went to boarding school together. That's cool. But what your question was, my attachment style is actually avoidant. So I am avoidant attachment style, which means that if I, what they found, so basically, if you don't know the study, is they had babies, they took the parent away from the baby, and one baby cried, cried, cried, one baby didn't react at all. and when they found the baby's like heart tempo,

they were just as anxious, but they didn't show it. Exactly. And so that's me. Like, I don't give off the sense that I am constantly tweaking, but I am. Yeah, for sure. And similarly, I'm okay with people leaving me. I'm like, people come, people go.

Like, I have really close friends in all over the world, all over the country, that I might not talk to for six months, and I still consider them close friends. If I picked up the phone again, we would start where we left off. So I don't know how healthy that is, but it really just shaped the world that I see. And it made me into someone who was like endlessly curious,

endlessly thoughtful, endlessly aware of other people having different perspectives. Like that, I think is what you see in my interviews or maybe my strength, is that I appreciate the fact that it's like, oh, my perspective is not gospel, even though I wish it was. And I do think it should be. There's a phrase out there The Church of Z-Way Was that just an article headline?

You didn't coin that. I did not coin that, but I would love to start a church slash tax haven. I don't know how that would work and I'm not trying to get... Very well, probably. Yeah, exactly. But no, that was New York Mag, I think, or the cut.

Yeah, it was the cut, I think. I'm just curious, you just talked about sort of being someone who's open to different perspectives and you've shared that your mom is conservative. I'm guessing that you have a different sort of political belief. And I'm curious when you were growing up with your mom, did you guys ever clash? Like, was there a point where you also had that perspective and it changed over time? Sort of how did that affect you having that sort of political perspective in the home?

I definitely shared, so I grew up really religious. And so most religious, children with religious parents, they are like, okay, religion, religion, religion. And they either like go with the family or they break in a really like severe way. And I probably broke in a really severe way. And so we've been clashing since then. You did say in your book, I think you said like the only, I mean it's obviously a bit humor, but you said like the only thing you can talk about

with your parents is food and God. Yes, that's true. So that's interesting that you had a break, but then you, you know. Because I've learned, the hardest thing I've found in therapy is appreciating that I cannot change people. I cannot change my parent. I am the child.

And there was a lot of like, maybe I was, I don't even know if bitter is the right word, but like I definitely didn't appreciate the fact that I would have to kowtow to them culturally. Like why couldn't they meet me where I am? But life is so short. My parents will be here for as long as they are.

And if I want to have a relationship with them where I learn about them, where I learned about the parents that came before them, I have to respect that this is culture. And to them, to me, it's not the gospel, but to them it is. Yeah, right. It's hard, though. No, that is huge. I want to be like, let's talk about real housewives, and they don't want to talk about it.

They don't want to talk about it. So actually, that segues nicely into, like what, you seem like you're, I mean, you seem like you really consume pop culture in this way, like just voraciously. Nava is similar. Actually, you two remind me of each other. The frankness, the directness. Such a compliment to me. Oh, my God.

The high intelligence, but then, like, you know, you love pop culture in a way that for me, it just doesn't. He's like, only dumb people do, so it's hard to. No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, you are pop culture. Well, that's probably it. Yeah. And it's just never resonated with me. When I'm able to kind of glimpse what it's like to consume pop culture without feeling like you're part of it, I'm like, oh, that's what that is.

Yeah. That's relieving. That's different. But anyway, I was talking about you two. Pop culture queens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what, like, we do love the kind of cringe, embarrassment, awkward thing here.

Yes. What are some trends that you were into in middle school and high school that, like, make you cringe now? Is there anything you can think of? Ballet flats are deeply uncomfortable. That was cringe. That was probably from Gossip Girl. I was like they're back now.

I brought a Mew, Mew, bag, because of Gossip Girl Day. Like, I am sorry. so deeply inspired and like sitorially by your your, oh, that's awesome. Um,

but ballet flats. What was him? I was, oh my God. I mean, I had the squishy black earrings and then like the studded,

um, bracelets. Like I wanted to be emo so bad. I had an electric guitar, black electric guitar. Oh my gosh. That's cool. I wrote a song

called Lone Wolf. I was really into the emo phase. This was when Green Day was really, I don't know if Green Day's email. I wouldn't consider them because I'm a bit older and they were like yeah they were my chemical romance were they emails yeah they were really hard

like the black parade oh yeah the black parade that was our human rhapsody and so that was really really cringe even though the music was popping yeah yeah actually just on that friends anyway you are kind of a secret

or I don't know if it's a secret but you're kind of of a pop star too like you write pop music and will you ever release it and could you tell us the type of of one of your pop songs? I've been working on pop music all year, and maybe I'll release an album in 24. I don't know.

It's hard because with music, I like being good at things. And so writing my book was so hard for me, honestly. My editors told me that my book was done years ago, and I was like, no, it's not done. I have to fix every word. And I was rewriting and writing it until the, like, May. and the book came out in October.

Because I am so controlling. And so with music, similarly, I become obsessive. And so I've done a bunch of demos, but I have to figure it out. Like, what is the sound? What am I saying on this God's Earth in this 13 song album, you know? So, TBD.

Well, if you do release it, come back. We want to listen to it with you. I would love to. And it's not like a y'all thing, like I would be happy to. It's more like I become, I get in my head. Yeah. But I think to the benefit of my art.

Could you leak the title of one of the songs or no, not yet? No, not even. No, because I would talk, like, I told everyone the book was called The Book of Zeeway. And then a month later, I was like, this title sucks. We did a new title. And then I didn't lock a title until May of this year. So I changed things constantly. Okay.

Fair, fair. But we will bring you back at Zeeway to stream your album. I would love to come back just to talk about the weather. This is fun. Okay. So as you're coming of age, what, you know, what was motivating you creatively, artistically, spiritually, like how that all kind of blends together, you know? Like, who was inspiring you and what led you into? What would eventually become writing and comedy?

I had a really amazing teacher, my freshman year of high school, my first semester, named Miss Benson. And she introduced me to Tony Morrison. and I was shocked that someone could have bars like that in a novel like shook. And then she introduced us to satire in the form of Jonathan Swift, who wrote the essay about eating babies and Stephen Colbert, the Colbert Report. And his White House correspondent speech and his show. And I thought, wow, the power of words. Like I became a sycophant about words being so powerful.

They can change anything. And I was, it almost was naivete, but it allowed me to really just immerse myself into writing. And that is the beating heart of all that I do. It's like an obsession with writing and how it can, I believe, move mountains. And we'll be right back. You gotta try breakfast. And what better way than with a delicious pratt organic coffee? Starting with just $1 all day, every day.

until December 31st. You gotta try breakfast at participating A&W locations in Ontario. New from Nespresso. Blend wellness into your coffee routine with a coffee plus range infused with functional benefits.

Choose the coffee you love with added B vitamins, like coffee plus B12 to help support immune function, and coffee plus B6 to keep your day moving. Or go with the flow and choose ginseng delight.

Our new double espresso with ginseng extract. Whatever. eyes ahead, don't change your morning. Let your morning change you. Discover Coffee Plus on Nespresso.com. Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Michael Bruce the Sleep Doctor. I've spent decades studying sleep, counseling thousands of patients and giving loads of lectures. But there's always more to learn in the world of sleep science, especially right now. That's why I started a podcast better in bed with the sleep doctor. In each episode, I leave you with the tools you need to

improve your sleep, which in turn will change your entire life. Whether you're entering mental to get your kid down for a nap or overwhelmed by which sleep supplements are worth your money. My guests and I are here to help you sleep better. From Lemonada Media and Sleep Doctor, Better in Bed with the Sleep Doctor is out now. Subscribe on YouTube or follow wherever you get your podcast. We have two classic questions we ask everyone, so just want to ask you those. The first question is if you have an embarrassing story from middle school that you remember that you could share with us. an embarrassing story

I mean my parent my mother would dress me up horribly I did not have any Riz and so You know what I think that's like one of the few times I heard somebody say Riz in real life Yeah I haven't had any I didn't have Riz And so I used to wear these Grammy panties That would hike up to like my chest

And I remember one day sitting out at lunch table And my Grammy panties being fully exposed And everyone at the lunch table laughing at me Ah ha ha ha look at her pants and me just being like, oh, I meant to show them. That's amazing, though. And that was like my first, like, memory of me using comedy to deflect trauma. No, that's really.

Because I was ashamed and humiliated. But the joke was on them because they didn't know. Avoid it. Avoid it. That's impressive. Okay, the other question we ask everyone is to share about their first, like, big crush or infatuation or love and their first heartbreak. my first crush and this is like a real human being

a real human being yeah well I mean if it's like if it's an actor and if it's Dan Humphrey will take it oh yeah okay real my first crush

was probably this kid in my freshman or first like first grade named Patrick who was blonde and I didn't even think I liked him I think it was just that he was blonde and everyone else liked him

so I was like oh yeah I like Patrick and then I remember I told Patrick like, I want to kiss you. And then he told his mom. And then my mom had to talk with me about like consent and not telling people you want to kiss them. So that was the end of my crush was me getting a lesson on boundaries.

Was it really, I mean, it wasn't framed in that language then, was it? Consent and boundaries? It was just like, don't say that to people. It's like, don't do that. Why? Don't. That's really, that's how we learned things back then. And we also would get like if we got a cut where they'd just like push us down the stairs and be like, walk it off.

But my first heartbreak was in high school and it was this guy who ended up going on to be like a Harvard libertarian. So really that was God blocking, saving me. But it was just like an on again, off again thing where it was abundantly clear he had no interest in me. I remember him specifically telling me, pitting me against one of my friends and being, like she is much prettier than me. Oh, no. Pretty prettier than you. And me being like, she is brushing my hair, like trying to dress like her.

Like super, super sad. But that was probably my first heartbreak. And that taught me the lessons of men being sometimes deeply, deeply annoying. Yeah. And just like, oh, God. Like I poured so much into this crush that had no interest for me. never, like, I couldn't have, like, handcuffed him to me and made him be my boyfriend if I tried with, like, at gunpoint. And, but you want to be loved so badly.

You're like, please, please, how can I change myself? And it's like, okay, the answer is right in front of you. Like, please just take it in sometimes. Like, that is much healthier. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Spilling tea.

Wow. All right, yeah, let's get into your career, because I really feel like that's, um, that's, that's, what we're all here for. Sure, my career. I do want to say just on the record, I feel like you're a genius and that you're at the level of Sasha Barron Cohen.

Wow, thank you. I mean, again, now meeting you, it's also so clear how young you are, which is phenomenal. Gougu Gagha. It's not anything, I hope you don't feel like I'm, but I just, you know, I can't.

Keep calling me young. So I just, you know, I think we're curious first of all, our research indicates you say something like or it's in Wikipedia or whatever that you have you had a double major but then there's like four majors listed

and having never gone to even high school myself I'm a little bit confused so what you had, you had film Oh, radio television and film Oh, that's a thing. African American studies and then poetry minor certificate Okay, so the two are

radio television and film, that's one and the other is African American Studies and then the minor is poetry. It's up to this poetry. Okay, okay. Yeah, it shows how little experience I have with formal. Can you explain a major to pen? But do you read a lot? I feel like you read a lot.

Yeah, I feel like you read a lot. Hey, education, I can tell you how to move through an institution. If you want advice, I will tell you how to do it. But I think the thing that I've been coming back to as I get older is like reading, the importance of reading and immersing myself and learning. Because I remember a lot from school, but to expand my mind I have to like oil that motor.

Yeah, it's so true. You, in college, is that when you started really developing your craft of like the sort of the interview that you're famous for, this sort of like iconic, I don't want to say trapping, but maybe leading people to answers that they wouldn't give in any other interview.

Is that something you started honing in college? No, I started honing that after college. But it's something that, I mean, it is such an indicator of like the Obama era of journalism. Like you really feel like the Fox News impact invading as a style. So I first perceived that when I was in high school and then and always thought it was funny but did not activate it until after college, like 2016. I'm just, I'm remembering your, is it the one that maybe you were first most famous for, is it Pat? Oh, Pat Riegan? He's going to love that.

Yeah, that's funny. So to be clear, I think what wasn't totally clear to me, like, he's a friend. Yes, for sure. Totally. Yeah, no, they were all friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Initially. So you started trying this out on your friends. And that, I guess what I'm curious is like this triangulation between, at some point you did stand up. Yes. I did stand up before. You did stand up before, right? Which is like the path that so many comedians are on. And you seems like you kind of dovetail the way from that.

Or I don't know. I still do. I just did a tour, honestly. I mean, I started as a writer. I was afraid to be on camera, super shy. And so I started writing and I would like that for the onion. And that includes stage, by the way. You didn't want to be on stage.

I was afraid. I was afraid. And then someone asked me if I did stand up and I lied and I got on stage and killed. And it was like, this is easy. And then I performed and I was like bombing. And it was like, okay, this is a craft you have to work on. And I stand up for me, there are a lot. of really great stand-ups, but I couldn't find a way to do it as like a special that I felt

engaged me in my ADHD brain. And so my solution was like, okay, I love interviewing. I love talking to people. How can we use like these mechanics I pulled from improv and stand-up in a space that is new and fresh? And so what you see is like the marriage of like a journalism background with like the marriage of like comedy and stand-up and improv into this format of like, like, okay, I'm going to confront my comedian friends

who are also stand-ups. We're going to have an interview that is entirely unplanned other than the questions, and we're going to improvise our way out of it. Yeah. Did you have a heavy kind of interest in journalistic, political, I'm not sure what to call it apart from that, but is that what you, partly what you studied?

Well, so I wrote from my college newspaper for one week and was like, this sucks. I'm not talking about myself at all, and I quit. But I had grown up reading the news every single day. I read the news, the Eagle Tribune every day. Did that come from your parents? Came from my parents. And then I watched the evening news at 6 p.m. and 6.30, David Muir, every single day of my childhood.

Like, I remember when we went into Iraq. I remember that as my childhood memories of, like, watching the news with my parents, the Dixie Chicks News with my parents. Are you talking about, do I, like, read the news? Yeah, I read the news every single day for 20 years. Okay, okay. So you do have this kind of this ethos backing up. And that makes sense because it's something. like it feels to me like what you're doing is veiling that journalistic ethos and curiosity and

seek and search of truth and i think a passion for justice it feels to me like of course but you're veiling it in like so many layers of a very like you know just in with your comedy this unique brand that you've that you've created so i'm curious like when did you who did you who So like, you know, a few people we've had on, like, say, I don't know, there's somebody like Conan O'Brien or there's somebody like Julia Louis Dreyfus. And then people who talk about, like coming from an S&L background, let's say. There's always that time where somebody saw them and then they went to perform and blah, blah, blah, you know, this and that. Like, so what's your origin story narrative? of how did you, as a conscious adult,

with all the set of powers that you had, who was it, what started happening where you were like, I can do this, so that you started to try this out on your friends? Oh, so artistically, what happened? So that I started to try it out on my friends? Or just at all, but then you did try it out on your friends. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, gosh, that is an impossible question. But here's something I'll share. No, it's not a bad question. It's because it is like a mirror. of different like moments because like the first ever baited episode came out the day after Hillary lost. So that is such like like. Who was it? This man named Mr. Trump won the presidency.

Who was the interview? Michael Antenucci was his name. And so and it was about interracial love or something like that. And what was but that is such a crystallized moment. in American history and where I had these eyes wide open of like, oh, this is a watershed moment. The world, as it seems,

post-Berock Obama is not what I expected. Like, how do I adjust? But I could name those watershed moments like every year going back. I think maybe the biggest, most impactful new story to me was I was in college when the George Zimmerman trial happened. Specifically, I was interning at the Colbert Report when the George Zimmerman trial.

happen and I remember them covering it that week and I was shook because Twitter was becoming this like juggernaut and you Twitter, excuse me, Twitter is wild because you get to see the opinions of people who should be out of your life. And so and so not only do you get to see like, oh like what does like Joni loves Chachi think about the news, but you also get to be like, oh, this person I follow from high school like this is their specific take on the news. And I was shocked. I'm from Massachusetts. It's deeply liberal, highly educated background. And people had different opinions of me or people have different opinions than me.

And that really shook my foundation because while my word isn't gospel, certainly we have a shared reality. But that moment taught me that we didn't. And the fact that it's even a dispute I find to be sort of heartbreaking. But that was a moment where I had to take a step back and think, things are not how they seem. and I can't be so binary in saying yes and no. Like everyone exists in a different plane than what I consider right and wrong. And how do I engage with others knowing that they are not coming at things from the same place that I am? And so that really shifted my art and my work.

And also depressed, that means depression. Zewa, you've said that you think of yourself as an accountability coach. And I mean, I think I have to... Oh, that's a joke. Oh, okay. I was going to ask like, what are you holding people accountable for? That's a real housewife character as an accountability coach. I am curious that you do have such an interesting way of influencing the discourse.

I mean, it's sort of like your unique stamp, I think, on what's happening. Or I don't know if stamp is the right word. But you're doing something that really catches people's attention and I think lingers with them. And because it's through comedy, maybe defenses go down. So it seems like it's pretty effective. But I wonder for you as like, you know, a human being in a room with someone who probably feels uncomfortable at the moment. How does that feel for you when you're in those? You're doing something important, meaningful.

That also makes another person uncomfortable. Like, how do you sort of navigate all of that? So I'm going to be honest with you and say that at no point in my life have I ever thought I am doing important work. Never. Oh, my God. I think I would be mentally ill. If every time I stepped through a door, I said, it's in time for work importance. Like I am really just moving through the world as myself, and I'm reflective of my experiences.

I wish I could say I had an agenda. I love having a job. Really, this is just me existing, and I understand that for a lot of people, that is a radical act. And that's probably the sense of where my work feels so important is because I am calling to the fact that me just being myself is like a loco and the cocoa. Like I have a dream, March from Washington. It's like I am just like keeping my head down and like trying to fake it through the day. And also similarly, like I, when people are feeling uncomfortable, I am feeling uncomfortable. I am human.

And so I am like, I know that this discomfort is happening. It's just that I have a superpower where it's like, okay, I see it happening and I'm just going to sit through it. Because I have been required to sit through that discomfort. all my life, right? Like, I, I'm constantly in these uncomfortable situations where people approach me and, like, touch my hair or tell me about their, like, black nanny, and I'm like, why did you bring that up? Or, like, this one time I was at dinner and this woman was like, I don't listen to Michael

Jackson. And I was like, why did you say that? Why are you bringing up Michael Jackson? What? Like, and so, but it's just, I'm constantly being confronted with these politics, and I feel uncomfortable. So this is me exacting revenge. Like, if I have to do this, you got to do it too.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Also, there's something in there where I feel like if anybody is authentically themselves, especially in a public space, like, I think that inherently has this effect. It's going to sound like such a modern, trite thing to say. But to truly be present and authentically yourself. is, I think, a radical act.

Oh, thank you. And whether you do it or actually, I do think, if anybody does it, it's just that so few people have the capacity to do it in any way that is witnessed by, like, large numbers of people, you know? Yeah, and even so, sometimes I'm like, don't share those opinions because they don't deserve you. So I'm constantly, like, negotiating with myself, how honest am I going to be right now?

but I am not I tried comedy for a very long time and was flopping you mean as a stand-up as a writer flopping because I was trying so hard to be other people and so I was just derivative it's like why would you want the derivative

Steve Martin when Steve Martin's still alive and he's making hits still you know and so where I found my lane in my bag was me just being myself when did you first interview somebody when did that become the thing the first time I interviewed interviewed someone.

I mean, who knows? Because this, like my, this is so performative that it's like probably on stage, you know, like probably an interaction

for a group of people. I remember the first time, I actually remember the first time I ever baited someone was in high school. And that, and it was deeply problematic, but I remember that really well.

But yeah. But on stage, I mean, I would probably be, what I shot in 2016 but I've been working through these jokes forever and high school was probably the first time I ever

baited someone and I like remember their name and who I baited them with and it was really offensive and I won't say anything because What you said was offensive or would they? Oh absolutely what I said was offensive and they had no reaction but I feel uncomfortable and that was the magic that I knew would stay

Don't go anywhere We'll be right back And what better way than with a delicious pre-organic coffee? Starting with just $1 all day, every day now until December 31st. You gotta try breakfast. At participating A&W locations in Ontario. Have you ever watched someone you love struggle with addiction and had no idea what to do? I'm Stephanie Whittles Wax, and I certainly have.

My show last day started with a question I've been asking myself, ever since I lost my brother Harris to a heroin overdose. What could have saved him? After years of talking to experts, advocates, and people in recovery, I've written the answers into my new book, Last Day, How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis. If you've ever been impacted by addiction or you want to better understand this crisis or you're just a human who cares about other humans, this book is for you. Get your copy of Last Day at bit.ly slash last day book or wherever books or audiobooks are sold. Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Michael Bruce the Sleep Doctor. I've spent decades studying sleep, counseling thousands of patients, and giving loads of lectures.

But there's always more to learn in the world of sleep science, especially right now. That's why I started a podcast, Better In Bed, with the Sleep Doctor. In each episode, I leave you with the tools you need to improve your sleep, which in turn will change your entire life. Whether you're entering menopause, trying to get your kid down for a nap, or overwhelmed by which sleep supplements are worth your money, my guests and I are here to help you sleep better. From Lemonada Media and Sleep Doctor, Better in Bed with the Sleep Doctor is out now. Subscribe on YouTube or follow wherever you get your podcast.

In your essay, just because you're a racist, doesn't mean you're a bad person. You say who you are is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. But I want to know, do you think it's a little bit their fault, who they are? No. I don't know.

I don't think that's for... So when 2020 happened, And a lot of, talking about accountability coach, a lot of people like would send me DMs of people doing racist things being like, what do you think about that? And I'd be like, I'm deeply talking about. And by people sending you, you mean friends or just like, audience, like, yeah, followers, whatever. Just like, I would get literally hundreds, hundreds of like racist things. And they'd be like, do you see this? Call them out.

And I'm be like, oh, you know, like I actually like am deeply traumatized by this. It actually really hurts. Like what, you know. And they wanted me to be sort of like this police. attack dog, the bashed, someone who holds the mantle for all things

that determine what is racist and what's not. So I cannot say that. Even though I have opinions, it's like I don't want that job. So is it some people's fault? I'm sure some people are like, yeah, I'm actively bad to the bone.

But I think by and large, most people are a product of their environments. But some environments are flowers and other environments are toxic waste. And you get what you get. Yeah. I agree with that in large part. Like I think understanding the difference between what is, well, fault and responsibility.

That's. But regardless, it's like, what do they say? Impact and intention? Yeah, intent. Like, impact is not intent. So you can mean so well. Yeah, and have negative impact. Exactly.

And then you have to be an adult and say, this is an impact that I don't want. How do I change myself? How do I rectify? And that's the growth. But we can't, I wish I was a NEPO baby. I can't control that I wasn't. But now, no, what do I do with the cards that I have? I have to move through life as is.

Or build a time machine. I think that metaphor also, though, does kind of highlight, not that we can, like, impact this necessarily, but the importance also of, like, creating more gardens in society. Like, how do you cultivate environments where people, where actually it's not so hard to come up and believe in like the on the onness of humanity and enacted or or sort of work on like removing prejudices that we all have. So what are the conditions that are a lot of that?

It's a work every day you have to work to unlearn bullshit, myself included. Sometimes I'll be, I'll have these biases and I'll think why did I think that? And I'm human because I'm human. Yeah. And how do I change that? I can't change humanity, but I can certainly try to change myself. Yeah. Well, that is humanity.

That's one person. I think you are changing humanity a little bit. Yes, one interview question at a time, or your money back. No, don't bring money to this. That just reminds me of when you asked, did you ask Drew Barrymore what money is? Did I? No, who did I ask? Was it Hannibal Burris? No.

Or Nicole Beyer? It was Nicole Byer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who I love, by the way. She's so funny. our show and I'm so funny. Yeah. That actually, I've been curious,

what draws, who do you want on your show? You know, as it has existed. Like, that was kind, that's been a compelling question for me. Like, because you're sort of offering, on one hand, like, a platform and acceptance and on the other, it's highly, uh, I mean, I think, I think a really great example is Michael Che. Oh, yeah. Oh my God.

You know, where he was just like, basically so nervous the whole time, but he came. And, you know, you wanted to do what you did, and you wanted him there. Like, so I'm kind of curious how, how, how, how, you know, not like a criteria list, but just what do you, what do you, what do you want when you want somebody on your show and like, what do you want to interview? This is a great question because I now have a follow up question for you. So with how I decide who to interview, it comes down to who is honest, who is going to stand on what they believe 12 toes. because I don't love we're in this

the like cancel culture element of people being afraid to just say what they think like just say it please just say it as opposed to harboring this illness and then and you like when you have whatever beliefs in your heart you still and like act on it people just don't know so I'd rather you just

say it and so those are my favorite guests are the people who say it and they say it and they're not afraid they're not like Chet Hanks was not afraid to double that. Those are the most compelling guess. I actually find actors to be really hard

because they're really aware of the camera and the artifice of it. And so it's hard to penetrate into like, who are you really? Because all I want to do is have like a human connection. Like I think of it, the interviews as scene partners working together. And it's like,

the interview is successful because of me as it is because of you. Because it's like I can't talk to a brick wall so I must listen and like learn and move around as you dictate. I'm constantly re-evaluating who is interview worthy and what net positive am I contributing to discourse by talking to this individual

and letting them be themselves. I don't have an answer. But for me right now, it's who is going to be honest and does their honesty reflect actual tropes in media? Or is this just some random wild person? I wouldn't do a random wild person. I wouldn't do a random wild person but I would do someone who is like

entrenched in like American pop culture. And what do you think somebody like that is coming on your show for? You know what I mean? I always thought the same thing with Ali G and the whole... Oh yeah! You know, I was like, I mean, in his case he was like deeply undercover. You're the

opposite. You're not... I can't hide. I wish I could hide, but I can't. Also, Ali G would like people would threaten to beat him up. I do not have the stomach for that. Okay, yeah, fair, fair. I know I know that he's like an extreme, but I do think you guys share. No, for sure. No, I pull from him and I pull from Nathan Fielder a lot too.

Okay. And Zach Delphinakis. What do I say? Why do people do it? You'd have to ask them. I think some people like just want to do right and want to and think that it's a space for them to to atone. Other people like think it's funny and love the challenge of being in this space where they get to have like a rapport. I don't think we have debates like we used to.

Like back in the day, you would have the Dick Cavett show. And James Bondwood would come up there and they would argue. They would argue. It's so good. It's so good. And we don't really have that anymore. Like, we just have celebrities being like, this is my movie. And here's a story about my movie.

And this is much more dynamic. And the clips also sustain themselves over years. So like a clip that I shot, like in 2021 is still just as current now as it was back then. of the evergreen element to it. So, like, attention, I don't know. You'd have to ask those people. What's next for you? What's next for me?

Because it feels to me like you surely have a, you surely have some kind of team around you, knowing you could build a lot. Like, what's, I'm curious? I don't know. People keep asking me that. And I finished a book. That's a lot. You've done a lot.

So I wish I could say maybe. When's the second one coming out? You know. I think the second one will come out in 10 years. So it's actually good. But I'll talk about like doing Victoria's Secret or like walking Mugler or something.

I would love to talk about like fashion and gender. But interviewing George Santos, hopefully this week. Like that's the goal. Hopefully it's happened by the time this episode comes out. I pray he is such an iconic figure in American history. What an interesting one. Final question.

Do it. If you could go back to 12-year-old Z-Way, what would you say or do? Honestly, I would tell her that everything that she needs, she already has. That's something that it's like the worst advice you get growing up that is actually the best advice is you always get told, be yourself, be yourself, be yourself. La-la, what does that mean? It's hard to penetrate. Then you're like, what does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean?

But it's, but I, as I've gotten older, I realize. that my keys to success are within my reach. And everything that I, like, it's here. I was so doubtful of myself and I would be so envious of others, seeing them thrive and thinking, why don't I just have that? Why couldn't I just figure out this before them? And the truth is everything happened at its own time.

And if, like, looking back on my career, it seems easy. But it's like, oh, man, I hustled and worked at a barbecue restaurant. and I was miserable and all of those experiences contributed to me being the person I am today that is both artistically really like strong in my perspective but also as a human who has like grace and decorum and kindness and understanding that like all the experiences that I went through make me into the human that I am that I am proud of but it's but it's hard to hear be yourself Yeah, you basically, yeah, right. It's hard to hear it.

And so I'll keep saying it, and I know that it sounds whack because it is whack, but it's like, you know in your heart what you want to do. And then all these external forces will try to beat it out of you, and you'll chase things because you think that that's what you should do. And it's like you know who you are. You know. And it's like, it's because we went to school and we're told, this is not how you be yourself. I used to get told that all the time in my improv class.

You know what my improv teacher would say? He made me cry because he said, I asked too many questions. Well, jokes on him. These questions are amazing. So that is to say that just like, just be loyal and support yourself because that's the only person who will ride for you till the end. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. You're daven.

Thank you. You know what I have stuck in my head? I have like a New Year's Charlie Brown Christmas. like, what's that song? All, all, it's really, I can't think of it. What's the New Year's Eve song? It's like the passing of time. Silent night, no, no, no, that's Christmas.

That's Christmas, that's Christmas, okay, I don't know. What is it? Old Langs Sign. I don't know that song. This is what we need to be playing. Penn, can you sing a little bit of this song? For Old Langsine, Fidelius, oh, hold on.

And all acquaintance. Yeah, yeah. Right? That's where it is. Yeah. Stitcher. Have you ever watched someone you love struggle with something really hard and had no idea how to help them? I'm Stephanie Whittles Wax, and I certainly have.

My show, Last Day, started with a question I've been asking myself. Ever since I lost my brother Harris to a heroin overdose. What could I have done differently? That's what my new book is all about. It's called Last Day, How to Stop Losing Our Love, ones to the opioid crisis. I'm going to read you a little preview. I hope you enjoy it. We hear about the opioid crisis so often that we've become desensitized to it. It's a headline, a political pawn, a collection of tally marks that stand where our loved ones should be.

Overdose deaths in the United States can be broken into three phases. Doctor prescribed Oxycontin, starting in the 1990s, heroin taking hold in 2010, and fentanyl, which surfaced. in 2013 and spread like wildfire in 2016. The Sacklers, who owned the pharmaceutical company that developed, produced, and aggressively marketed Oxycontin may have lit the match, but our broken system allowed it to burn. Since 1999, this preventable tragedy has claimed more than 800,000 lives. My little brother was one of them. Thanks for listening. Get your copy of Last Day at bit.ly slash last day book or wherever books or audio books are sold.