Podcrushed - Sam Smith

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Sam Smith joins us for a raw and revealing conversation. Discover the surprising revelation about their journey from a young, talented singer to a global pop sensation. Sam talks about overcoming stage fright, the inspiring moments of writing their hit songs, and the unique way they find peace in New York City. Plus, get a sneak peek into Sam's intimate Brooklyn residency and learn why this next album might be their best work yet.    For a limited time, you can try Pretty Tasty for free -  just go to prettytasty.com, pick your flavor, and use code PODCRUSHED.    Take the guesswork out of your dog's well-being. Go to ollie.com/podcrushed and use code podcrushed to get 60% off your first box!   00:00 Intro 04:53 Sam Smith’s Childhood and Early Influences 06:28 Navigating School as a Queer Kid 09:52 The Power of Music and Female Voices 20:41 Struggles with Weight and Self-Acceptance 26:27 First Experiences with Love and Heartbreak 31:30 Embarrassing Moments and Overcoming Stage Fright 34:21 Pursuing a Career in Music 36:22 Early Career and Record Deal Challenges 37:11 Deciding Between Musical Theater and Pop Stardom 37:58 Musical Influences and Recording Experiences 40:04 Family Influence and Early Performances 42:04 Themes of Love and Safety in Music 46:18 Personal Growth and Mental Health 47:34 Creating Authentic Music and Overcoming Challenges 49:40 New York Life and Relationship 54:27 The Importance of Water and Flow in Life 59:27 Reflecting on Career and Future Projects 01:07:55 Intimate Performances and New Music 01:12:07 Final Thoughts and Advice to Younger Self   Our new book Crushmore is out now! Go go go! https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993    🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada And I was so scared that I pissed myself. I pissed myself. It was horrendous. In cackies. I pissed myself in cacki, so it was just piss everywhere. And then I was like next in line to go up and perform. And I can't believe it, but I fucking, I walked up on stage.

I stood on stage and I said to the audience that I just spilled water. all over myself. So excuse this. And then I stood there and I sang heroes by Briar Carey. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. Squarling away sausage rolls into your fanny pack. When fanny packs were not cool. Welcome to Podcrushed. I am joined as always by my co-host, Sophie Ansari

and Navakavan, who are now my co-hosts. co-authors. Yes. Not only my co-authors, my best-selling co-authors. That's right. Read it and weep.

Read them and weep. Actually, I think that is presumably, that is mostly what happens. There's a lot of weeping. There is some laughing. But we wrote a little weepy, didn't we? We did. This is the book, Crushmore.

If you haven't had a chance to get it, pick one up now available pretty much wherever you buy your books and you know I have been creeping a little bit on the good reads and the Amazon reviews and they're pretty encouraging so hopefully you'll like it too I mean I think you should just

we shouldn't just say they're pretty encouraging we should say they're on fire they're hot they're hot they're hot they're good everybody loves this book what more do we need to say it's a best seller did I mention that we're bestselling co-authors yeah Ben what was it like to do press with two normies

I was a little stilted and awkward frankly I think I'm I think I'm better on my own you're like someone call in elizabeth and victoria get rid of these two they clearly have no media training yeah actually you know i find media training to be first of all i've never had media training but but but i find people who are media trained to be it's just it's just it's like it's like a professional athletes particularly european soccer players when they're like well you know

it's all about uh it's all about the game and it's all about the teammates and it's about the ball it's about the game you're like okay you're okay And I learned nothing. No, I have to say that it was a different experience than usual because this will sound like a bad kind of compliment, but it is interesting, it's true. It was the first time I'd done press for something in a while that didn't have this kind of guaranteed success apparatus behind it.

You know what I mean? When you're on one of the top Netflix shows, you kind of know that Netflix is going to place that thing where it needs to be. Or whatever the thing might be. be these these giant corporations they they know what they're doing um and although simon and schuster is of course a big publisher i i do feel like it's a it's it's different we we we were us writing a book and it succeeding is not the most obvious thing no you know it's maybe a little random a little strange and unlikely so so that was different and i think and i think um uh so many

things about it i mean i like did not see being an author so much on my bingo card for this year as they say or a best-selling author and honestly doing it alongside you too I think it was just the perfect

way I would have never done this on my own you know and I'm but I'm actually really glad that I've done it and I'm really proud to be to be right there alongside you I'm really proud of everything that we wrote and yeah so it was like it was like very very deeply meaningful

while also being wholesome. Love that. All right, enough about me today. We have, this is a good one. This is a bit of a powerhouse one. We have Sam Smith, singer, songwriter, the powerhouse voice behind hits like, Stay With Me, too good at goodbyes, unholy.

I mean, there's many, many, many more, but we don't have time to list them. Sam has become one of the defining artists of the past decade, and I was reminded of that, listening to their catalog. I was really, really impressed and excited preparing for this interview. Sam immediately just opened up a delightful human being. I'm really glad this is one of our relatively few episodes where I get to be in person. Unfortunately, Nav and Sophie, we kept them in the dark.

We kept them far, far away. But they also left their indelible, inimitable, inimitable, invalienable, invaluable. That means it's not valuable, right? They're invaluable contributions to the interview space. No, they really did. Guys, I loved this one.

I really, really loved talking to Sam. I know you two feel the same way. This is in support of their residency here in Brooklyn. So if you're not in Brooklyn, sorry. But it's a pretty special time for this artist. Blossoming.

You'll hear all about it in our interview. Stick around. You're not going to want to miss it. As we head into the cozy season where the days are shorter and the nights are colder, I love taking the opportunity to slow down and do something that's just for me, which is rare as a mom. So it's really important that I do it. I figured, why not get a head start on this year's New Year's resolution with Rosetta Stone? Learning a new language from the comfort of my home in my PJs, my favorite thing to wear. it sounds like a win-win to me honestly. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning

for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain a new language from your computer or your phone whenever it fits your schedule. I have been running into a lot of Spanish speakers recently. I mean, I was running into a lot of Spanish speakers in L.A. and now I'm in Texas and I'm still running into a lot of Spanish speakers and I always, you know, people kind of expect me to speak Spanish sometimes. I get that quite a bit like, did your mom speak to you in Spanish? People aren't quite sure if I'm Latino or not. And so it is really my goal to be able to just like seamlessly answer, yeah, I speak Spanish and to have it be the most normal thing in the world. I, there's nothing I want more than that. Honestly, it's on the top.

of my priority list. The issue for me with having the courage to speak in a language that I'm learning is feeling like I don't have the accent down. And so not feeling confident enough to just like go with it. That's why I love this feature on Rosetta Stone called True Accent. It's a speech recognition feature that provides real time feedback on your accent. It's always been the hardest part of learning a new language. I feel like it's tricky to just like nail it. You think you've got it, but you actually don't. don't. And so I love that about Rosetta Stone. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Podcrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited

access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash podcrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosettastone.com slash podcrashed and start learning today. the folks at ollie know how special your relationship is with your dog while your kids may grow up and head off to school your dog stays right by your side just peeing right on your ankles you know it's waiting for that next walk wants that belly scratch or meal time frankly they just they just have needs that don't end am i right i want the absolute best for my dog as much as i might make jokes about i resent his neediness um the truth is he's a lovely lovely lovely little guy. And I got to tell you, he recently went through a bout of sickness where there was a little

bit of concern. He's getting older. And I was reminded just how sweet he is. One thing that has given me real confidence going through his bout was that I've switched to Ali food. And this is no lie here. He eats Ollie and only Ollie. He's extremely picky. He's hardly eaten any other foods before for very long. He keeps coming back. I think it's probably because Ali offers him. for his fresh protein-packed meals that are made with real human-grade ingredients. I have not tried it, but I don't need to. I can tell. My dog's personal favorite, I think.

I mean, of course, he hasn't told me, but from what I can tell, I think he loves the beef with sweet potatoes. Maybe the turkey with cranberries is a close second. He also loves the lamb. He loves the chicken. I got to say, he kind of loves them all, which is so rare for him. I mean, it's actually, I think, the only food that he's ever consistently come back for more than a period of, like, you know, a month or two. He's a husky.

He's extremely, he's got this, like, this idiosyncratic personality. He's, like, just controlled chaos. He's got too much intelligence and personality. Too much judgment. Too particular of a palate. And yet, no lie. He loves Ali. And I love Ali just as much because they make it easy for mealtime.

Each meal is perfectly portioned and comes. in mess-free packaging. There's even a scoop for easy-serving and a storage container so any extra doesn't stink up your fridge. Your dog's well-being starts with their food. And that's why OLLI delivers fresh human-grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.com slash podcrushed, tell them all about your dog, and use code Podcrush to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's OLLL-I-E dot com slash podcrushed and enter code podcrush to get 60% off your first box. Sam Smith, thank you for being here. As I shared with you

a moment ago, if you're ready to go there, we start at 12 years old. And to give, you know, when we can, we like to give a little special color to our standard question of a snapshot of you at 12. You have spoken about this concept for you, this place for you, a pink house, right? Pink house in the woods and how

different spaces, you've spoken about like dance floors, et cetera, different spaces shape who you are. So we're curious, what are the different places and forces shaping Sam at 12? Well, at 12, I was in at 12 hours in my pink house.

Have you heard of Mr. Blobby? No. Mr. Blobby. No, what is that? I used to call it the Mr. Bloby House. He was a kid's cartoon in the UK. It's very scary, actually, if you Google it. But it's this man in a large pink suit,

and it had yellow polka dot spots. Okay. And as a kid, I moved into this house, and it's always been kind of this dream house. I'd call it Mr. Blobby House because it was this beautiful pastel pink house. And my mom had saved up her whole life really to get a house like this

and then it had little yellow spots of moss on it and so I called it the Mr. Blobby House and it was such a dream, it was an incredible house and just so many informative moments and memories there so at 12 I was there with my two younger sisters who would have been six and seven at the time and I was just at 12 years old it was like I was in secondary school

and secondary school was brutal especially those years for me in it was a Catholic school in England and it was just yeah it was when I think back to 12 I just think about like

the discomfort of being in school at that time it was I was so gay and that was always my thing is I was never in the end there was no closets in my life There's no question. There's no closets.

I was just so obviously gay and everyone knew before I did. So secondary school was just, those first few years were crazy because everyone was just calling me gay the whole time. I'm sorry to laugh because it's just the way, because obviously you have lived through it and accepted so much. So I'm laughing for you. You can laugh because I was a funny, I was a funny kid. I was, like, I wasn't, I was, I was popular.

Okay. I was, I was really chubby and round and pink. Were you tall? Yeah. I was tall. You were, okay. Yeah. I was really chubby and round, and I just, like, was just addicted to sausage rolls.

Who is it? Sounds great. And I was, I was just singing, left right, the center, just singing the whole time. It sounds pretty obvious. It was very obvious. It was very obvious. but I was very dramatic, I was very sensitive but I was, I had loads of girlfriends all the time

like I had no problems making friends I had loads of girlfriends around me I was all the girls best gay friend What was the year then? Was it like 2000, you're young so it was like 2002 something like that? Must have been maybe 2005 Oh yeah that's right

because you're born and I don't know I'm sure yeah Yeah but that's like that's that's late in the game Thinking culturally Yeah I mean well I came out when I was actually 10 years old to my best friend who was a girl in primary school and then kind of kept it

a secret with her for a few years and then in school it was just like when in school thinking I was going to keep this secret but everyone was just like gay boy again I'm laughing for you and my God

it's okay it's okay that's hard it was it well yeah was it maybe was there a period of difficulty maybe before that like no No, no. Okay, that's cool. I had beautiful memories of primary school

where I was kind of accepted to be wherever I wanted to be. And being young and queer, it was kind of nurtured all the way up until, I'd say, around the age of 11 and 12, which is when you just started to just be exposed to boys in school that just were so angry, obviously, from shit that they were going through at home.

Can I swear on this? Sam, I've heard you talk about this on your own podcast. The Pinkast, by the way, everyone should listen. It's a beautiful, like such a welcoming podcast. Oh, thank you. And I think you talked about how at that time when it was really challenging, you would listen to Always Be My Baby on your podcast again and again. Sorry, on your iPod.

I love that song. It's such a good song. But I'm curious, what was it about Mariah or that song or music in general that felt like a safe space for you? I mean, as like all of my friends were women, my sisters I had two sisters my mum was the breadwinner in our family so my mum

would go to work every day she was a banker in the city and my dad was a house husband and my dad is very soft and sensitive and quite effeminate so I was just surrounded by feminine soft beautiful energy my whole life

so when it came to music just the power in the storytelling from the divas, and not just the divas, like, you know, even I was obsessed with Winehouse and Corrin Bailey Ray and Lily Allen and, no,

just all female artists from a young age. And to the point where there was just, I just didn't listen to men at all, probably to the age of like 19. I just didn't listen to male singers. I had an absolute block when it came to male voices and kind of male anything,

male comedians. just anything. I was just obsessed with women. I think that when I look back of that now, I think that there's just such a strength to those female voices. You know, they were going through so much and I think that it matched with what I was going through

because I had a hard childhood of being queer and being so loud and effeminate and too big, always just too much the whole time. And so that's why I think that I really just bonded with the divas in my life and those experiences because they were larger than life people. It's true that you really don't have,

I've thought of this many times before, and there isn't the equivalent of a pop diva for a man. I don't think there is, right? I can't think of one. Well, there is me. I'm joking. No, I'm joking. No, no, no, I'm joking. Do you mean a pop diva for a man

as in, like, it's in like a man that's a pop diva. Yeah. Well, I think the closest for me growing up was George Michael. Okay, yeah. Was George Michael. And I'd even say like Stevie Wonder.

Ashley, yes. Elton John. Elton John's a diva. That's true. I mean, Prince and Michael. Prince and Michael. There's many. But in terms of like queer

femme divas. Yeah. And it's something that I've learned a lot, actually. I've been, there's an incredible artist. You may know. them they're um no her her name's anoni yeah anoni and um so powerful i mean the most powerful i've actually not listened as much since the like formal transition of the

name and stuff but i mean previous works are previously known as anti the johnsons one of the most incredible live uh shows i've ever met you the greatest i went to see them live and um recently and um i've actually like we've when i moved to new york they we we started to have tea parties together. I don't think they wouldn't mind me sharing this. Yeah, I feel the vibe. I did meet Anoni before, and that makes it a lot of sense. They're incredible, and she sat me down and she schooled me a little bit,

and it's something that I needed. Can I ask when this was? It's been over the last year. Oh, great. And I've just had a bit of educating, because, you know, I haven't, I'm part of a very small lineage of queer femme, queer femme, trans non-binary musicians and voices from the UK. And if you think about the generations, it's me,

and then before me is Anoni, and then before Anoni is Boy George. Yeah, right. And I never really understood that. And weirdly, I had this synergy with, as a kid, I watched documentary, He's on Boy George, and it was always so insanely close to my life. And then now as I've got older, I've started to realize, like, oh, gosh, like, they are my mother's. They are my lineage in what I do as an artist.

And it's, yeah, it's very interesting thing. I can talk about it so much. That's actually really cool. So we will get into the maturation and the evolution of you as an artist, because I do like that and um i do have a lot of questions once we get into your career and your work so let's let's uh let's think about all those formative times where you know the seeds of what's now blossoming yeah you know we're being planted so it sounds like you had a lot of support at home crazy i mean it which is beautiful because not it's you know not everybody has that especially with the orientation you

have the sort of identity you have you know that's like that's really great I'm curious, so it sounds like your father set the bar very high for you. Yeah, I think with, there was almost two mes at home. Like there was me as the child that was growing up, a non-binary queer child growing up and trying to find my place in the world in that way. But then there's also the singing me, which is something that was a superpower and a burden from a very young age. I started singing when I was, people first started hearing me sing

when I was like 10. I sang around a friend's house once. And they were like, well, the mum, the mum of a friend was like, what? And then they had me singing a duet with the girl that I came out to, Beth, who was amazing, who I still know now, and she's just the best. And so we would sing together. So at school, like, having shows or we went to like holiday camps together as kids and were like sing for sweet tokens and stuff.

So we'd sing together. And that's how I started to get heard by my school and stuff. And my parents would hear me singing in the car. But from a very young age, it was just like... Clear. Yeah. Well, clear to everyone else. Yeah.

Not to me. I was always... And still to this day, I find it hard because I don't hear what people hear. Wow. I'm curious what you mean by that. You said it was a superpower but also a burden. What do you mean by that? When I sing, people stop and listen.

From a young age, it happened. And that was something that felt quite powerful, even as a young child. It was nice. But it was a burden because I am petrified to sing in front of people. I find it really, really hard. Still? Still. Really?

Yeah, like, I find it really hard. Really? Yeah, I find it. It's, it's, I had a panic attack on stage when I was 26. which was kind of the peak of everything. Yeah, I mean, it changed my life. It was in South Africa and I froze on stage and couldn't sing for a year after that.

And I didn't tell anyone publicly, which I'm happy I didn't, so I could work my way back to performing again. Yeah, then there wasn't like a headline. Still to this day, I'm just like shitting myself. Wow. The whole time. I mean, so as a performer,

I feel a little bit silly calling myself one in your presence, but I'm a, but I, but I, so I am. say, hey, you don't like to sing. Okay, so... Thank you. So, um... You know, Tom Takamastai is my favorite baby, ever. Really?

Yeah, ever. Wow, okay. I think that might make three of us. I love that film. That's interesting to hear. Okay. Well, Sam, I have a question about a different kind of performance. In your premiere episode, you talk about the dance.

floor is like a place of, like a place of freedom in this, like, wild city. And I was curious what your relationship to dance has been throughout your life. Oh, just always love dancing, even from the age of 12, like being a kid, just dancing all the time. I used to, I used to actually, like, get into, like, my mom's clothes and lock my door in my bedroom, and I just, like, dance in my mom's clothes to, like, to, like, pop music and all the pop divas the whole time. It's actually how I got my exercise as a child. Yeah. That's the best way to do it. Yeah.

I think you had mentioned somewhere that as a kid you used to look in the mirror when you were crying. Like you'd watch yourself. And I used to do the same thing. And I have some thoughts about why I did that about, like, you know, as a youngest child, just like wanting to be witnessed when lots of people in the family were not. You know, I just kind of was taken along for the ride and wasn't seen a lot. But I'm curious what you think it was. for you. What was that about? Me and my friend used to call the mirror montages by ourselves.

You're so cute. I don't know. I used a kid. I was just fascinated at seeing myself cry. You've just made, I think, made sense of it for me by saying that. I think that I was so strong as a child, like coming out at such an early age. And when people would tease me in school, I wasn't like, I'd be like, I'd give them hell in in the playground and I'd have these amazing girlfriends that would jump in front of me and fight the guys and like and I'd be sent out of class for fighting back you know I was a loud mouth when and didn't go down without a fight so um the kind of inner the sadness that I

had to deal with later in my life that that was happening inside I um I think that it came out by myself and what you just said is so true I don't think anyone got to see me me cry in that way. So maybe I was intrigued about how it looked. Something that's just striking me meeting you. Before we started the interview,

you said you're an open book. And I find that to be very true. And so I guess I'm just wondering, like, of course, all people struggle. And it's so clear, like you're in touch with your struggles, which is how you communicate as an artist. It's part of why you have a voice,

you know, that mysterious thing. So, but I guess I'm just, I'm just really interested in, you're talking about feeling so just like uncomfortable all the time. I'm curious, what, if you can name a thing or a few things, what do you think it was? For me, it was always my weight. Okay. My queerness was something that I could handle and I could have a grasp on it. But it was my weight as a kid was the hardest thing for me in school. And weirdly the thing I probably got teased.

the most about right okay yeah because i and i i i i've spoken about it before and i get misquoted all the time on this stuff but i i i had um surgery on my chest when i was 13 years old wow and um because i had like a growing chest right right right and there was you know all sorts of reasons why but mainly i was just getting so teased i couldn't like go swimming in school and I couldn't like getting changed in the locker room was hell so I got liposuction when I was 13 years old

What was it like convincing your parents They were supportive They were They were hugely supportive of the whole thing Because they just saw how much It was crippling everything about me But honestly It was just all a struggle with food and stuff

And the liposuction was It worked But it was also a nightmare Because they gave me a band Which is like a bra Which is like a bra But I was only meant to wear it for a month But if I wore the bandage

It meant that I would get to the front of the lunch queue Because everyone had to be sensitive about my chest So I just kept So I kept this bandage on for nearly a year And I'd be like Oh don't come close to me And then I just get first of lunch to luncheon And I'd eat more and eat more and eat more

and so the surgery never really worked because I just love food I think that actually beautifully that beautifully captures this interesting I don't want to say contradiction but you know we're all many things like that beautifully captures something of what you're saying is like this thing that made you painfully insecure

you're also like hey check this out I'm going to skip the line that's very interesting I made lemonade out of the situation I'd say my weight was my weight is what made me feel uncomfortable in school and and just as I said before just I was

always just too much it's something I still deal with now in my relationship I'm in now it's just I'm a lot like I'm just naturally just just be even me being quiet is a lot and so it's

and it's and it's and that's hard and I think that's down to the to the way I speak to you know what I wear all these things it's just like So for many, many years, at the beginning of my career, which all of you knew me from at the beginning of my career, that was me trying to...

Toning it down. Toning it down, but enjoying the doors that were opening because I was toning it down. It was fabulous. Like, I'm going to tone it down. Let's get 17 people behind me singing, you know? Like, that's amazing. That's you're toning it down.

And we'll be right back. All right. I just discovered this. It's a pretty unique drink. I'm a little obsessed. It's called pretty tasty, pretty tasty tea. So it's like a collagen ice tea in these little packets. And I think it's kind of genius. So there's 10 grams of collagen. There's 10 grams of protein. And there is zero sugar. Like me, no sweetness whatsoever. Just kidding. There is some in there. But it's not cane sugar. It tastes good. Like it's not fake sweet. or like chalky it's it's clean and it's refreshing and it's tea so there's no artificial flavors no dyes it's just a delicious drink that I can feel good about it has collagen something I've heard a lot about I've had it in fits and starts they say it's good for your skin the truth is I do have good skin but what I can tell is when I drink it I feel good and knowing that it's having this effect that it strengthens my hair and my skin the truth is I'm mirror

the end of my 30s, going to be 40 very soon. I do need this. And I have 8 million children. I have four children, four boys, two newborn twins. So I am having to think about how I take care of myself. And this feels like it's really doing something for me. It's a win-win. It's good for me. And I like it. Seriously, skincare has never tasted so good. I'm pretty sure. I don't usually eat my skincare products, but in this case I do. You can try pretty tasty for first. Just go to pretty tasty.com, pick your flavor, peach, raspberry, lemon, or black tea, and use code pod crushed. That's a whole case over $40 value for free because your glow deserves a taste test.

As we head into the cozy season where the days are shorter and the nights are colder, I love taking the opportunity to slow down and do something that's just for me, which is rare as a mom. So it's really important that I do it. I figured why not get a head start on this year's New Year's resolution with Rosetta's Stone, learning a new language from the comfort of my home in my PJs, my favorite thing to wear. It sounds like a win-win to me, honestly. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain a new language from your computer or your phone whenever it fits your schedule. I have been

running into a lot of Spanish speakers recently. I mean, I was running into a lot of Spanish speakers. in L.A. and now I'm in Texas and I'm still running into a lot of Spanish speakers. And I always, you know, people kind of expect me to speak Spanish sometimes. I get that quite a bit like, did your mom speak to you in Spanish? People aren't quite sure if I'm Latino or not. And so it is really my goal to be able to just like seamlessly answer, yeah, I speak Spanish and to have it be the most normal thing in the world. I, there's nothing I want more than that, honestly. It's on the top of my priority list. The issue for me with having the courage to speak in a language that I'm learning is feeling

like I don't have the accent down. And so not feeling confident enough to just like go with it. That's why I love this feature on Rosetta Stone called True Accent. It's a speech recognition feature that provides real time feedback on your accent. It's always been the hardest part of learning a new language. I feel like it's tricky to just like nail it. You think you've got it. but you actually don't.

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Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash podcrush to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. I heard you have a conversation with Ocean Vong on your podcast and in it you said that we could all kind of benefit from bringing parts of ourselves from when we were children into our adult lives, which I really loved. And I'm curious, if you think back to your child's self, what would you benefit from bringing into your present? That's a great question. Thank you. I wrote it myself.

I just loved when I was in primary school, like from the age of like three to 10 years old. I just didn't compare myself to anyone. That's what I just didn't look left and right anyone. And I just, I, well, I didn't have a lot of jealousy when I was young. So I think that's something now that I, I'm just really trying to master that so much. It's hard to master. That's a wise answer. That sounds really nice. Yeah. Not looking left and right. Yeah. Sam, I was thinking about when you were sharing just a moment ago, um, about like feeling like being too much. I think I've shared this before but I think the best piece of advice

I've ever gotten was from a friend named Isaac and it was like at a time where I just kept being really interested in men who wanted like really meek women and I'm not a meek woman and so I would feel like oh I'm like I'm too much I'm too much so I had like opened up to him about it and he said just find someone

who likes the default version of you like that's what you should look for don't try to change the person that you are and that's something that I still like sit with And when I start to feel that way, like, oh, I'm too loud, I'm too outspoken. I'll just be like, it's okay. Like, there's someone who likes that in a woman. There's people who like that.

My boyfriend says something so beautiful. I've said, there's a lid for every part. And I think it's such a nice saying. And there is. You don't have to change. And all my relationships before the person I'm with now, it was just, I never, I just didn't like myself enough to, and that reflected in the relationship. And so after my first ever proper relationship,

I took five years being single. And in those five years, I did so much work on myself through therapy and just with all like body stuff and analyzing my mental health. And just I've done so much work over the years. And so now I go into the relationship and everything he brings is an addition to what I already have. and that I have built, which is a beautiful life without a lover, you know? Yeah, that's beautiful, Sam. We ask all our guests about their first experiences with love and heartbreak.

You're talking about your experiences now as an adult, but what was it like for you as a 12-year-old if you were having any of those feelings or whenever you did have those feelings? My first, all of my first experiences, which I think a lot of queer people can relate to what, Well, maybe they can. I don't know. I mean, queer people of my generation. Now, young gay kids,

and they're able to have partners in school and go through those things. For me, it was all make-believe in my head. It was wild. I would fall in love with these straight guys in school, and I would be around my friend's houses, and I'd just daydream the whole time about this one guy. And then I would claim that I was in love with a guy.

um who i probably was like he was probably like the lead in a show that we were doing because i did all these pantomimes and fucking like i did so many shows as a kid it was exhausting and so i probably like had a nice friendship with with the guy that i was in love with but i yeah i just i fell in love with guys there's this one guy actually that i he was the brother of my best friend and i've beth best brother no this is another friend called mabel is my friend It's my friend called Mabel. And she was my best friend, and I fell in love with her brother. And I would see him all the time because I was always around Mabel's house.

And I actually became really close to him. Yeah, I actually got to the point where I wrote him a letter, telling him how much I was in love with him. Did you give it to him? And I gave it to him. Wow. How old are we talking? I was probably 14. Okay.

That's curious. Was he gracious about it? incredible. He wrote me a full letter back. What? And told me how much he loved me. He's doing great stories. Isn't it beautiful? And it was such an amazing thing. So like

even in those desperately lonely moments, there was still love being experienced. I still felt a little bit worthy. That feels to me like it actually warms my heart. And that actually sounds like the evolution of culture in a certain way where it's like you are not describing the typical experience of total isolation,

you know, and like suffering in the closet as people have described generations past, you know what I mean? But also, I don't think people understand their queer history, and I don't think they understand that, like, my generation was really the first that had this opportunity to live so outly, and if that's a word. I think it's a great word now. But it's a huge burden to bear as a child because it's all new territory. You know, like my parents were so accepting as me coming out.

But, you know, parents nowadays won't just be happy or accept that their child is out. They'll also go and seek information. They'll go and listen to podcasts, listen to maybe this podcast. They'll go and read some books, watch some queer movies, stuff like that. My parents didn't do that. And so I think it's important now that it's just accepting. someone as being out as gay is the first step, but

there is a history that is important to listen to and learn so you as a parent understand the community that your child's about to walk into, you know? So I think that I had it great, but the history for me

in the UK, when it came to queerness, especially femme queens, is different, you know. Just because of the way you're talking about parenting, I'm curious if you thought about it, don't have to answer if you don't want to. Have you ever thought about kids?

I want kids immediately. Really? Okay. I'm ready right now. I'm ready right now. I've always wanted children. I'm excited. Sometimes I hang out with my friend's kids and I have the best time

and then like seven hours into it. I'm like, get me out of people. So I'm scared about being tired. Well, yeah. Trust me. That's part of your own. It's different, right? Yeah.

Well, I mean, look, I have waiting for me when I get home And they're roundabout texting me right now Being like, yeah, what's, I was it? Yeah, when they're yours, you just, you can't, even though it's hard You can't imagine life without them, you know? You really, you really can't. It's interesting. I'm ready for it now.

I want kids and we've got two tortuces, fish and two dogs in the house. You're just collecting the animals until you can have anything. Before we officially go into all career things, as much as we have time for, another classic question we ask. You've actually, I think we've got so many good stories, but we do ask,

is there a particularly embarrassing moment, you know, a cringe, particularly cringe-inducing memory from this time? There is. I don't think I've ever said this either. or maybe have on my podcast, but your podcast reaches way more people. So this is actually the most embarrassing thing that happened to me.

And then three years ago, it became my champion story. And now I look at it differently, and I'm like, actually, this was the making of me. Great. I, you know, I said I was scared of performing. Yeah. I still don't understand, and I want to talk about that more.

I'm petrified. But this will show you just how petrified. I'm 11 or 12. I just started secondary school. So it's an intense environment for me with all the boys knowing that I'm gay and all this stuff. I start singing in music class. And this teacher just kind of like grabs onto me. He's like, you have to perform at this annual evening at the show for the school.

It's called Shades of Autumn. It was every autumn. And it was all the kids would be like kids would go up. you'd be chosen by teachers, and you go up and you read a poem, you can play piano, or you can sing, or you can, you know, just showcase some sort of art. And it was only a select few of kids that would do it. And I said, yes, I was so scared that I was sitting, waiting to perform,

and I was wearing these khaki pants. And I was so scared that I pissed myself. I pissed myself. It was horrendous. I pissed myself in khaki so it's just pissed everywhere and then I was like next in line to go up and perform

and I can't believe it but I fucking I walked up on stage I stood on stage and I said to the audience that I just spilled water all over myself so excuse this and then I stood there and I sang heroes by Ryan Carey Wow

amazing that's incredible and then there was a picture of me in the music block covered in piss for the whole of my time I was in school. And no one knew, no one you except my best friends. This is your origin story. It was. And then so recently when I've been trying to attack my kind of nerves on stage, my therapist

is like, look at that moment. Like, you still went on stage and did it. You can do this. You have the courage to do this. It's in you. So yeah, that's my embarrassing story. You were always singing. And as you said, people would stop and listen.

but when did it go from being like I'm the one who can sing at my school to, you know, this is a path? This is like, you know, it's hard to say at such an age, like a career, but you know what I mean? Like when does it become that? For me, it was like 12. Yeah. So I had, I was always getting parts in shows and stuff from the age of 12. The problem was I was so queer that there was never a part for me in any shows. I was always in the chorus or I'd have like a random solo in shows

because I could never be like a lead or a character because they're always straight guys and plays and musicals. So there was never parts for me in things. But for me at the age of 12, I was kind of being like groomed to become a musical theatre singer. So at 13, I remember having panic attacks with my mum about what musical theatre schools I'd be auditioning for at 15 years old and all this stuff. And I was working, doing like four or five shows a year after school,

singing lessons, like singing lessons, musical theatre, singing lessons, trying to learn instruments, just like really, really a lot of work. And then when I hit, well, I went to, there's a musical theatre school in London called Sylvia Plaths. I think we've had somebody else who went there. Not Sylvia Plaths, that's a pilot. No, Sylvia Youngs.

Yeah, musical theatre school that went to on a Saturday and the singing teacher there basically heard my voice and put me into a recording studio. And I started, I basically got a record deal when I was 15. Is I? Wow. With a record company that they started.

signed me and my mom signed for me because I was a minor and they had artists on their catalogue that had written loads of music and they had me singing the music in the studio. And it was it was a it was a situation that was actually in some ways helpful and I learned how to be in a recording studio but it all became really nasty and to this day they still sell music of my voice from when I was a kid it's all on iTunes and stuff and they sell things

and put things online of me when I was 15 which is really strange that is strange yeah but at 15 years old I basically decided I had this chat with my mum I was like I don't know what do I do I do musical theater

or do I try and be a pop star a 15 years old that's amazing and me and my mom decided together that I was going to try and be a pop star and so I, then from the age of 15, I just, it's all I thought about. And it wasn't necessarily about being a pop star.

It was being a singer-songwriter. I decided that I didn't want to do musical theater. I wasn't an actor. There wasn't, it wasn't life that I wanted. I love the idea of, you know, gigging and writing songs about my life and traveling around the world. And, yeah, so I decided to do that at 15. Did you have, when did the influence of like soul, dance hall, like R&B really come, really come in to play? Because I feel like that was, I mean, it's there on your first record, but then it of course develops more over the course of your career.

And then also like, you know, I'm curious about the interplay between like gospel and R&B and your experience at a Catholic school and the church and the fact that later you would sing and record Gloria like in your childhood church, is that true? So I'm just wondering about I'm triangulating around a question I don't know how to ask but you know what I mean? I think something people need to understand about my music is that my music is just as non-binary as me.

It's not, I'm not one thing I'm a flow person. I flow and I can't stand still. It's just how I'm built. But for instance the thing that I, it's not that I don't hear it as though it's missing because that's not at all but like I'm because of the way you describe yourself

I'm not surprised but like I don't hear musical theater in your music but I mean that in a good way as a person I think if you hear my voice on some of my first on latch with disclosure and some of my first on my album there's still musical theater in there and very pronounced

I guess you know what that's true that's true and I have a bias against musical theater because I started a musical theater myself and I had to sing I had to sing, what's the Aladdin song? I could show you the world or what's it called. A whole new world. A whole new world, that's right.

Oh my God. I had to sing that so many times. And it just, there's something I probably need to look at with my therapist. You find musical there as a trigger. Yeah. Yeah, so do I. Yeah. So do I.

I struggle with musical theater now too. Right. And so the bias I have is that we've actually had people on who come from musical theater and they're so, so good. I mean, Ariana is actually one of them. But, you know, to me, you just sound like, like somebody who knew themselves musically from like the jump at least on your first record and and everything after you know what i mean so i'm curious no matter how much musical theater i did

in my teens the the queen of our household when it came to music the the voice that i remember growing up listening to and was always somehow there was aritha franklin yeah and then it was always Aretha or Shaka Khan or Whitney Houston or Stevie Wonder. Yeah. They were just these pillars of voices that my parents were obsessed with. Like when I first started, like I first started doing gigs when I was probably 13 years old. I'd do gigs in pubs. And my dad would come with like an amplifier and a microphone and I would sing to these backing

tracks that my dad would train me to singing to backing tracks every night after school. He would cook the dinner. and I would stand after school and do like an hour to two hours of singing to backing tracks and my dad would kind of ignore me until I got something right and then he'd sit and listen

it was quite wild was he doing that intentionally was he intentionally training you yes wow yeah now I know that he was and he's now finally let go of it now he can come to my shows and he came to my show the other day and he can now actually

you were flat on the bridge he did it at the beginning of my career He would give me this honest feedback. But now he enjoys it, and it's fine. But, yeah, he really worked my voice as a singer. And my dad loves jazz music. So he really was the first things I was singing was Frank Sinatra songs. And then my mom loved this Stevie Wonder song that my mom loved,

called Overjoyed, I think. And so she'd have me sing that the whole time. Is that early, Stevie? Because I know if Stevie Wonders... That's from Songs in the Key of Life, I think. this song, yeah. Overjoyed. It's overjoyed? Maybe. Yeah. Maybe I've got it wrong.

It's something over something. No, I feel like I can hear it in my head. Yeah. I'm not going to sing it, but I would be singing those classics the whole time. Stick around. We'll be right back. Have you heard of Rakuten? Trust me. When you start using it to shop, you're never going to want to go. back. Racketon partners with all of your favorite stores to offer you cash back. That's right. Racketon partners with all of your favorite stores across categories like fashion, beauty and wellness, electronics, home essentials, dining, and so much more. Macy's, Nike, Alta Beauty, Instacart. The list

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You talked about, I think it was in a conversation with Rebecca Sugar, which also I was so delighted that you brought them on. Rebecca's amazing. But you talked about when you were young, your grandma showed you Pete's dragon and like how influential that was. And then it kind of blossomed into this love of lighthouses. And then you mentioned a recurring theme in your music, which is calling lovers back to safety,

which I thought was so gorgeous. Then I went back and listened to a lot of your music with that in mind, and it's definitely present. So I have two questions. One is, if you could just share a little bit more about that, sort of what it means to you to call lovers back to safety in your music thematically, but then also you've shared that you're recently in love for the first time. And I want to know what it feels like for you.

What does it mean to have a lover call you back to safety? That's very sweet. Well, first of all, I lighthouses, sirens, My grandma grew up in a place called Whitley Bay in Northern England, which is a beautiful coastal town. There's an incredible lighthouse there. And she also introduced me to Pete's Dragon. And I think that that's where that obsession has come from.

It's also just from, as I said, from being in love with so many straight guys and growing up through my teens. And I felt like I, I don't know, I just felt like eternally lonely. And there's something about a lighthouse that has. that but it's also such a warm place of safety too so I think I've related to that

so deeply and I still do to this day there's an amazing song from Pete's Dragon called Candle on the Water which is the most amazing song and I wrote a song called Lighthouse Keeper which is my favourite song I've ever written in my life which is all kind of about that stuff

so it's really it's about a longing And it's also, I guess it's about my voice as well, weirdly. It's like I have this thing that creates some people want to listen to it. So I guess it's about trying to, through my life, trying to come to terms of stepping into that, how I hate saying the word, gift. But it's like something that I've had to face recently. Like it's to like what I do and to like my job and to not feel so scared. I think I have to think about it in that way a little bit more.

but I'm English and we find it hard to look at ourselves in that way it's actually a great point I mean so it's funny because my wife is English but she moved here when she was 12 so she very expressly does not have that British been kicked out of her yeah like no she's a very I mean I think my co-hosts can corroborate

she's like a she's so not English in that in that one respect a lot of her family members Did she move here to New York? Yeah, when she was 12. That will do it. It's like, even just being in the last year and a half, it's like, wow, it really shakes you up.

It's like, but it's great. You start, I'm, you know, it's a skin that I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, all my family from England, so I'm always there still, but it's, I'm enjoying the change. So you strike me, though, as somebody who, like, in your debut record, you strike me as, you know, which I don't think you find a lot in, in pop music or well music you just

ever really you arrive to me to my ear somewhat fully formed now I know that you of course that's not true for anybody and I know that it's not true for you um because there's of course growth that I can hear on the rest of the records but but um I'm I guess I'm

curious you know what was the experience like of finally making that record you know like you're you were what like 19 to 21 or something and I'm just curious you're finally doing what it might feel like you were born to do

they're also like really afraid of performing or maybe afraid is not the right word but you know you have these conflicting feelings about performing so I'm just really interested in that formative time it was just so excited I want to answer your question by the way about question at some point so I'll come back to it

but I um that yeah that first album was was, it was just so exciting. That's all I can say is like I was work, I worked, I had jobs as well as doing all the musical theatre stuff and everything. I worked in I worked in like a newsagents, like a

corner store from the age of 15 and then when I left school at 17 and I immediately started working in a bar in London and

And so for about four years, I was working in a bar. I used to clean the toilets in this bar. It was the worst job in the world. And, like, clean all the glasses and, like, it was in the city of London. So it was, like, the Financial District of London. So I'd work these horrible hours to, like, 4 a.m. in this bar. And so I'd worked, I felt like I'd been working non-stop since I was, like, 12, doing school. All these theatre performances, recording albums being signed.

I had, like, six managers by the time I was, like, 19. and then all these jobs trying to get money and trying to move to London and stuff so I was by the time when I got my record deal and when that all kind of came to fruition it was just like I was just so desperate to sing for a living and to not have to work so hard

and so I just really ran with it that whole album process I was just I was being putting sessions with all different writers like four or five sessions a week with different people so writing five to six songs a week for a couple of years

and it was a wild time it was very orchestrated by the label it was a very commercial experience and it had and it can that commercial music pop writing experience continued up until right now in my life it was I really gave myself to pop music

fully and full heart Well, and what's so impressive about that, too, is that I think with, like, a lesser artist, the forces of commercial pop just, I think they, they obviously threaten to sanitize something. They threaten to bring out the best, I think, when you're, like, the best of all art, I think often is when you're being mindful of all of those, like, the tension between commercial and critical to oversimplify it. You know what I mean? It's like, because you're actually figuring out how to truly make something that is, like, masterful, but, like, open and appealing. There's nothing wrong with that When you can do it, pop music is actually The most incredible music. Like, for instance,

I still marvel at some of Michael Jackson's biggest hits. It's like, this is weird. Yeah, it's wild. This is weird music. For sure. You know what I mean? For sure, but it's so open-hearted. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, Quincy and the whole thing

is just incredible. Yeah. Incredible. He was the greatest of that. Definitely. So I had a question there somewhere. Wait, there was a question that we sort of interrupted of Nathos. What was that? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tell us the end of that. Oh, just being in love now. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah, it is an incredible feeling. And I feel like, you know, talking about lighthouses, it is wild to have someone who is that home for me now. It's incredible. And I moved to New York to be with him.

and New York comes with the package of my partner because he weirdly, this is a weird story so he's lived in New York for 10 years with similar age and when I met him I was here in New York visiting and I met him for a date and he on the date

he told me that he grew up 10 minutes from my house that I grew up in the countryside of English Wow like down the day the street from me. So that whole time when I was like a lonely gay kid

the lid to your pot was just right down the street. The lid to my pot was down the street. Isn't that crazy? It's wild. I think we're all supporting characters in your story. That is a great story. Isn't that wild? So we have all the same

obsessions, experiences. Wow. And yeah, so it's really, really beautiful. What makes what makes you said New York is part of the deal with him if he's British why is New York such a big part of his life well he came he's a fashion designer and he he he came here

he started making clothes for Lady Gaga when he was like 22 or 23 straight out of fashion school wow it's amazing in the UK is incredible and he moved here and started his brand when he was like 23 and he's lived here ever since and he's so deeply inspired by New York and his fashion is all about New York York. And so he just loves, he thrives in the madness and the chaos of this city. And so I've got

to experience New York through his eyes, which has been absolutely incredible. I still need to get out. Every two weeks, I run for the hills. Totally. Yeah. And go upstate because sometimes I need to like hug a tree. No, it's definitely true. I was actually, my mom visits somewhat regularly now, coming from upstate where we own a home, and she brings our car down and then drives back out. And the other night, I was loading her bags into our car, into my car, which she was going to drive out. And I just had this feeling like, oh, my God, I wish I was, like, I just had this sense memory of being like, I could be getting in this car and driving out of the city, which you just, if, when you, once you have that ability, you're like, oh, my God,

it's so much here. Yeah. It's so, it's like you can't live without it. And, you know, And it is hard to live with it. It's a lot for your nervous system. It is. Sure, the key is to New York, for me. What? Baths. Wait, like a bath at home?

A bath. If you can soak your body, I think that your body gets so tense from the noise. Yeah. The literal noise. Yeah, so you're like, you're heightened. And so I think if you can have, I sometimes have two baths today, if I can. If I can get one in the afternoon or in the morning. And then at nighttime, definitely at nighttime, have a bath if you have a bath.

one or even just hot showers great but just like calming the body down physically it has to become part of your ritual in new york no you know you're right you're right i had a question for you about water because i played your song to be free for my husband last night we were both dying over it it is my husband's a musician he's played music all his life drums and piano mostly and he was like this is the best song I've heard in a long, long time. He loved it. Thank you so much. There's a line in it, I mean, the whole thing is very

moving, but there's a line where you say to be free like the river and it made me think, I think I feel freest in the water. And then also the water also has some memories for me that are

the exact opposite. When I think about swimming when I was a kid, like you talked about feeling like insecure about your body, but generally the overall sense is like a sense of freedom and I was curious if you had any memories or moments to do with water that are connected to that for you first of all I want to say that that question is my favorite question I think I've ever been answered to me I mean it I'm not just saying that

because like that I could talk about this all day I I am obsessed with water in many ways I grew up near a river in England there's a little river on the street that I was born on. So I was always by rivers. But I, people don't know this. I mean, I am an incredible underwater swimmer. Really? Yeah, I'm like a seal.

Can you hold your breath for a long time? I can hold my breath for a long time because I sing. But I can weave and like swim incredibly underwater. Do you like to do that in natural bodies of water? My favorite thing to do is wild swim. Yeah, I actually have to say. I travel around the world touring. Do you really?

And I jump into wild water everywhere I go. Oh, man. That's amazing, Sam. to freezing, and then all in the Caribbean in Australia, I seek out wild water swim. That's the best.

And I'm good in cold water, I can stay in for a long time. You're like a silky. I am. You're a mythical creature. I'm a Celtic. Actually, when you were describing the Lighthouse earlier, there's a gorgeous children's film by a cartoon saloon

who like they make a, they win like Academy Awards now. They make like really incredible children's films but it's an Irish production company and the first one I think is called Song of the Sea and it's like a lighthouse is central to it and it's like and it's a it's beautiful I just so the first time I saw it was with my now 16 year old but when he was six we watched it and now that we have a five year old we we just watch it with him for the first time and it's like really moving yeah and there's something about what you're saying so

wait so you um but water is everything do you I I wonder if, because I have had, I think there's a real difference between scuba diving, which I don't know if you've done, or like this, that free swimming that you're talking about. Do you have a preference? Free swimming for me, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for me, water has become not something that I just physically love.

It's become a, I, so I was, like, diagnosed of, when I had this panic attack, right, in South Africa or on stage, it was the first time I was ever not able to do my job because of my, anxiety. So I had to go back home and I had to have therapy and figure out how to overcome this. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to sing on stage again. And so I got diagnosed in the UK through therapy with OCD, had started on medications to help me with that and all of that stuff for I'd say three, four years. And I never got past it. I just felt like I was living with an illness and I never could, I wasn't mastering it. And so then I tried a different route of therapy with a different therapist.

And I stopped all my medications and I basically started to describe myself. Instead of saying I have OCD, and by the way, this is like anyone who maybe listen to this who has OCD, ignore me because you have to like, we all have our own brains and chemistry and we all have to do our own. own thing. So you have to seek that out. But I, for me, I came off my medications and instead of saying I had OCD, I've started to describe myself as a flow person. That I am very much like water in terms of my gender expression, my music tastes, the way that my body fluctuates. My mental health is just like water. My mental health is always moving up and down. So now when I'm feeling anxious and if I'm getting a wave of anxiety or panic attacks

and things like that I think of it all as weather things that will just flow past you at some point and as long as you know you hold on to things you know and just don't resist too much and move with the weather and let it

come through you so water has become this symbol that it's so linked to my body and even in the way I dress you know like I'm not happy person if my wardrobe just has one type of thing. I need, some days I want to wear a beautiful long skirt. Some days I want to just wear a t-shirt and some, some, you know, some jeans. And I need, I've lent into this flow, water state, into every single element of my life. And it's made me

an incredibly happy person as someone who can finally manage my mental health and my issues. So water is just the act of flow in life and letting go and allowing yourself to change and grow it's such a powerful thing if you can master it's really beautiful can we talk a bit about your growth from record to record I want to respect your time so we won't go into the nitty gritties but I guess you really know how to open and close a record I think I've noticed and you kind of arrive on the scene doing that

from your first you know you have you have I really love money on my mind I have a feeling I had a feeling you would so I did so just shout out to Ariana I kind of did this with her and shut up she was like why are you bringing up

shut up and it's like I heard something that probably I would bet your fans have a real soft spot in their hearts for it and that's why I'll never diss my music because like there's it's like looking back of bad outfits but I don't think I've ever mastered an album, by the way.

When you say I open and closed an album, I love my records. I think they're great collectives of songs of the times and for the things that I was trying to achieve when it came to pop music and being a queer voice in pop music, it felt exciting for the albums I've made. But I don't think I've mastered, right actually until I've made a record now,

and it's the first time that I actually think I've mastered a proper, like, cohesive. body. Are you talking about Gloria? Are you talking about something else? The record I've just, I've made now. And it's like up and to that point, my albums that you know, they, I love those records, but they are

they're, I've had to, for me to make what I've just made, I've had to look at everything and better myself. Yeah, well, going back to what you were saying before about the, like, how up until now you were in this incredibly pop commercial sort of, apparatus right and what i was remarking on and and really do still feel like i just want to reiterate i understand why you i can i can understand why you would feel that way about your songs and in particular

the one i mentioned um but i but i actually think that you you have so much capacity that it's amazing that that that song is good do you know what i'm saying like it's really good because you are taking the the pop forces and you're doing something like I just think it's really impressive I just think it's because you're saying something incredibly authentic because you're saying

by the way for anybody who hasn't heard it the whole point is that money is not on your mind but you've called it money on my and anyway I just think it's an I think it's a really infectious hook and just that like the swerve you have on it because it's the same swerve you have an unholy

too it's the same like it's the same like there's this thing you do with your voice that you don't do on all of your songs. It's kind of like, it's clever, it's cheeky. It's like, I guess what I'm saying is like, to me, only the greats really rise above the forces of pop music. Because pop music, otherwise,

because it's got so much money behind it, it will anesthetize. And it can still be great. There's so many good pop artists. But I think ultimately it's hard to be yourself. And that's what I feel like I see you on a journey towards being able to do which only the greats can do.

Only the grates can be themselves in pop music. And this is a person who, like, pop is, I listen to the greats. I don't really listen to a lot of other pop music. You know what I mean? That's just my... I think that for people, the one thing that I think people are misunderstood about my music

and I don't read critics anymore or anything about my music, because it's unhealthy. But the thing that is misunderstood is to understand. understand the type of music I make, you have to understand the context and you have to understand the nuances. And you have to understand that I, like what I was telling you about my childhood,

about being a young queer kid and the voices and the things that I listen to, you have to understand that to understand my music. My music has always been compared to a straight person's exposure to pop music, which is very different to a young queer person's exposure to pop music. So what people may find cheesy about my music, what people may find simplistic about my music,

actually, if you look at it in a different lens, could actually be taken as quite radical. It's like me leaning into those pop things, and you have to understand where I would go out drinking at 23. You know, I didn't have this luxury of, like, going to these cool bars, listen to Radiohead. It didn't happen for me. It wasn't like that for me.

I totally know. For me to meet men and to have gay experiences, I had to go to gay bars, which had sticky floors, a lot of them had awful drinks, and they were playing, like, intense pop music that wouldn't be classed as, like, great music to many critics, you know?

And so I believe that my music is radically centric. That's interesting. And I enjoy that about what I do. I think it's important, actually, for me to be, that's me being authentic. I'm not trying to make a buck off you when I'm writing this music. I'm not sitting there trying to think of what's commercially going to turn people on. This is what I like. That is what I listen to.

But I also at the same time do now listen to beautiful quality music and amazing albums. And I'm trying to deepen my sound. But I think it will never be enough for a, certain audience, honestly. And this whole record I've been making recently is I've made it with five people in a room. I've produced

it myself with them. I've pushed everything as credibly as I can to be free as the beginnings of that. The music I've made now, I've pushed so deeply. And even after doing that and even sitting here with what I believe is my best body

of work, it's only going to be truly understood when you take time to understand me and where I actually come from and don't compare me to straight artists and to artists that have had different life experiences and exposures to music than I have. And that's what I ask of people, you know, if they have the time.

For that reason, is the song, him, any kind of marker? Yeah, that was a huge, that was a beautiful moment for me that song. It was, you know, my first album I didn't, I said he, on the album a few times. But it's ambiguous. It was ambiguous, but it was meant to be ambiguous. I came out at such a young age that there was this whole media thing

when I first brought my first album that was trying to hide my sexuality. And it just wasn't true. I wasn't. I was trying to appeal to a wide audience because, you know, why is it that when I'm a kid, I listen to Stevie Wonder

singing songs about women and listen to all these female artists singing about straight heterosexual relationships and I can relate to them. But still, to this day, when someone knows something is gay, they find it hard to relate to. They think it's not about them. And so that first album was my first chance to get my voice heard in the world.

So it was important for me to reach everyone and make sure that everyone, especially the women in my life, could relate to that music. So I made sure that there was a neutrinist to that first album. But then after getting stick for it, I was like, I have no problem saying him. I wrote the song, Him, and I love that song. And, yeah, and now the album I've just written, obviously, is mainly, you know,

been so inspired by my relationship right now. And it's, you know, five albums in, finally I can actually sing love songs from a real place and from a reciprocated place, which is beautiful. I wish we could talk to you about it having heard it. Yeah. Well, Sam, let's talk about your residency. So your residency is called To Be Free. It's in Brooklyn.

It's in these, like, intimate spaces. sort of tell us about the thinking about that and then anything you do want to share about your album we are receptive well the residences after all these years of performing in these big rooms

it was always incredible and when I had that panic moment in South Africa when I was 26 I then you know made sure I worked back up to arenas and then I did the whole of my Gloria tour last year which was incredible

also exhausting like getting into a thong every night and singing in a thong every night when you're tired and fat and shattered and still terrified of performing and still

you don't realize how it is like I've had my best friend come on tour with me last time to basically just push me on stage but once I got through the last tour which was actually really powerful I felt like my last tour

tour on my last album was really about autonomy. It was about putting a hand in front of myself and saying, I am going to do what I want to do in my life. And that's what comes first. And so I really felt like I regained some strength from that tour. And after the tour, I just missed that, like,

those first gigs when I was 22, when I first came to America, were in these rooms that were built for music. And I got to just really look at the audience's eyes. And that is where I, like, connection and fire of magic has created for me as a musician is in those rooms that are built for music where people they come and they arrive

and they're there to listen and to and to experience something in an intimate space so i just wanted to get back to that and i had no idea that these shows would do what they've done the last two weeks have just been insane i i haven't my first time i performed in those rooms there wasn't a lot of queer people in those spaces actually when i was 20 years old And then over the years, in the arenas, my audience got bigger, so I've kind of, I lost perspective of who was coming to my shows. And now I'm doing these shows in New York, and I'm looking out at the crowd, and it's just so diverse.

There's just so many different people who are there and who feel connected to me and want to hear me, and it's just making me fall in love with my work again. That's beautiful. And I'm just so happy that we've done it. Yeah. So that's great. And the new music that I'd be making is just,

It's just been the best. Just me, five, six friends, all just singing, and they're all smacking wood in a studio. Amazing. It's the whole album, you know, there's no autotune. There's minimal electric, like electronic music. There's a few drum machines that we've used, but actually in the room.

That's cool. And creating these things together from a really organic space, and it's been wild. Can I ask where you've been recording? I've been recording in Brooklyn. Okay. Yeah, in Prospect Heights. Yeah.

And, yeah, amazing little studio. Can't wait to hear it. I know the guy who... Shazad? Shazad, yeah. You know, she's that. Everyone knows. I love it.

He's actually been on producing, like on the record, playing on the record, writing on the record with me. That's amazing. He is a gift. He is a gift. This is somebody who walks around in, in, like, incredible dress. and he walks around with like a nylon string classical guitar and we'll just sort of play in a way that makes sense for the moment and I remember we were walking getting coffee one day

I don't know him well but I know people who know him well and I just remembered as you were saying that that anyway he's amazing incredible mystical magical person he's the wizard of Brooklyn yeah that's exactly what he's exactly what he feels like well Sam it's been such a joy to have you on thank you we do close with one final question if you could go back to 12 year old Sam

what would you say or do if anything oh what did I say or do oh I would um I would I would I think I just

I would just give them the biggest hug in the world I really would just give like I just needed a hug like my I got great hugs at home but I just need I needed a big old hug as a kid

because it was exhausting I just had my fists up the whole time so you know what that's actually when you say that as sweet because like my newborns when they're nursing they just like they don't know what's going on a lot of times but so when they're when they're having

and because they're twins they like are never getting their needs met at all times unlike a lot of newborns So when they're like, when they're nursing, they just kind of have their fists up like this. They're just kind of like. A little fighter. Yeah, definitely. And also I just, I would just say that there's some people that will never change.

And there's some things you can't control. You know, I think that's what something was so confusing as being out so young is that just didn't understand why people could, didn't like me or that that was. something that was definitely going to change, that people were going to come around. And I took it upon myself a lot of the time to try and break people's homophobia, I think, a lot of the time as a kid. And I think that I became a perfectionist in that sense of just wanting everyone to like me. So I would say just, I would say to not to try and stay away from perfection like that.

Sam was so wonderful to meet you. Thank you. It's lovely to meet you, too. Yeah, such an honor. Thank you. You can check out Sam Smith's new residency to be free in Brooklyn at Warsaw from October through December, and you can follow Sam Smith online at Sam Smith. Pod Fresh is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari.

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