Podcrushed - Simu Liu

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Marvel superstar Simu Liu (Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Kim's Convenience) joins the hosts to delve into his fascinating origin story -- including candid memories of his early childhood in China, his wholly unexpected journey to Canada, and the biggest moments in his stratospheric acting career. Plus, he offers exclusive insights into his latest project, the espionage thriller series The Copenhagen Test, premiering all episodes on Peacock on December 27th. Podcrushed listeners can grab Rosetta Stone’s LIFETIME Membership for 50% OFF at https://rosettastone.com/podcrushed. That’s unlimited access to 25 language courses, for life! Go to https://airalo.com and use code PODCRUSHED for 15% off your first eSIM. Terms apply.  Make changing time easier for you and your little one… order Magnetic Me today! New customers get 15% off your first order when you go to https://www.MagneticMe.com  Check out our new book CRUSHMORE, out now! https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993 🎧 Want more from Podcrushed? 📸 Instagram 🎵 TikTok 🐦 X / Twitter ✨ Follow Penn, Sophie & Nava Instagram Penn Sophie Nava TikTok Penn Sophie Nava See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Penn, are you saying that you're the only person in this who can't speak Chinese? So if I was to say, we're going to say, but he just is the only way of the word of German. Yeah, what a loser. I'm pretty sure what you said is next to the OC

and the other show you mentioned. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Gossip Girl number one. Welcome. to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties. Comparing Penns. Yeah, I like comparing pens. That was just a thing I like to do. Okay. Hello and welcome to Podcrushed. I'm joined by only one of my co-hosts right now. And it's not the one you think. No. So quick. So quick.

Actually, so as much as you might feel left out, I think in terms of who I've been joined by only these like kind of only two of us, I think it's sort of half and half. I think you would have an absent, you know, a handful of times each. I think I was absent more recently, so that's on my mind. Yeah. You're just absent-minded. Yeah. I know.

You kind of said that I had no experience being a nerd or something like that. Oh, and did you feel like you were such a nerd? No, no, not at all. But I was like, but then when I said, I mean, I shared this, I said it, but I felt like when I, my reaction is exactly that, like, no, I definitely wasn't a nerd. But that comes off as like, I was super cool. That's very cool. No, you feel like a nerd is meant to be smart.

Is that what it is? Yeah. And you don't feel smart. Yeah. Let's not get into that. Moving on. Why don't we just get to our guests? I don't see why not.

Let's do it. Nobody wants to listen to us to without Navajo just trying to generate chemistry. We can't do that. We need the linchpin. Today we have the phenomenal Simulieu actor, author as well. So you're going to know him, of course, from things like Kim's Convenience, Barbie, and the giant Marvel film, Shang Chi, and the Ten Rings. But he's got a book out.

That's not what he's here to promote. But I just want to say, great, great, great book. Such a good book. Such an unexpected joy. In just a handful of years, Simu went from accountant to an extra on a Guillermo de Toro film, then to basically a global movie star. He was named one of times 100 most influential people. But before that, he has a very, very, very cool story.

We start actually, rather than at 12 years old, we start at 4, because that's when he moved from his hometown in China to Ontario, Canada. Right now, he's here to promote his new series, the Copenhagen test about an intelligence agent who is compromised and must prove his intelligence. No. Must prove his allegiance, you know, to the system, to the man. It is a real nail-biter. I did watch some of it this week.

Looking forward to finishing it. Today we just, we got into Seymu's unlikely path to Hollywood. You'll love it right after this break. If you have got travel coming up visiting family, heading abroad maybe or maybe you've got a dream trip for the new year imagine feeling confident greeting people where you're going in their own language rosetta stone makes it easy to feel more connected and have a richer experience wherever you go with 30 years of experience millions of users and 25 languages to choose from including Spanish french german japanese and more rosetta stone is the

go-to tool for real language growth. Rosetta Stone fits your lifestyle with flexible on-the-go learning. You're able to access lessons from your desktop or mobile app, whether you have five minutes or an hour. For me, my 16, nearly 17-year-old, he is now in, I think, Spanish 3. He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish if he had someone in the house to speak Spanish with. I really want to be able to live on this. I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that.

I love how their true accent feature gives real-time feedback on my pronunciation. It's helping me feel a little bit more confident, sometimes a lot more confident in my Spanish-speaking abilities. Don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. Pod Crush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com slash podcrushed to get started and claim you are 50% off today. Give a gift that keeps giving.

Go to rosettastone.com slash podcrushed and start learning. Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard-earned wisdom. Every conversation leads me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91-year-old mom, Judy, to get her take on it all. Wiser than me from Lemonade Media premieres November 12th, wherever you get your podcasts. old, that is what we do, who you are at 12, right? Like, there's just some serious stuff, like, where you were born,

and the fact that you didn't meet your parents, technically speaking, until later. I mean, so there's a lot about that, you know, you coming to Canada. So if you wouldn't mind, you know, we'd love, at least for our listeners, for you to situate us with this major life transition you had at about four years old. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, we're just going to do the whole shebang. If you could summarize your book, you know, just get this with notes. Summarize the, yeah, no, 100,000.

Okay, yeah. Basically, I was born in China, and my parents, shortly after giving birth to me, I mean, they knew that they were going to try to pursue an opportunity kind of to go to America slash Canada. They didn't know what it was going to be yet. But when I was about six months old, my dad got a scholarship. scholarship at Arizona State University. So he left. And then I was with my mom and my grandparents and he stayed at ASU for one semester. And they said, okay, we'd love to have you back, but

we can only really cover your tuition. We can't really cover your living expenses. And then there was this university out of Kingston, Ontario, Queens, that did better, basically. And so you know, him not having really any money to his name at the time, you know, that decision was kind of made for him. So he, so he moved to Canada. And that's why I grew up Canadian. And that's why I had to spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills in order to get an 01 visa in order to be able to work down here. But, but no, it was the best, it was the best move for us at the time. And then my mom joined him kind of shortly thereafter. So I was, I grew up with my, my yeah, yeah, my nine-eye, who were my grandparents.

And we spent every day together until I was four and a half. And one day in January, my dad showed up at the door, although I didn't know that he was my dad at the time. He was just like a strange man. And he told me that he was going to take me away to Canada to this new life. And it sounds really like warm and fuzzy, but really at the time, like he was a complete and total stranger and I loved, I loved my grandparents, like, more than anything. So it was actually quite hard to kind of, you know, just like enter an entirely new family unit. But yeah,

I, you know, we immigrated to Canada. You know, I grew up. And then, yeah, I actually at about 12 years old, I got into this, like, really kind of prestigious, I guess you could call it like a prep school in Toronto. It's called UTS, University of Toronto school. and yeah, that's where my adolescent journey began. When you were, do you recall like the sense memories? I mean, early, you know, for all of us, no matter what happened, four or five years old, I think your memories start to come online. Yeah, for sure. You start to get lucid.

Yeah, I'm curious, you know, the way you speak of your grandparents, it's like it's so palpable and felt your love for them. I mean, there's even a point where you speak about how you would give anything to sort of, you know, have them back and you, I thought, I'm pretty sure I was hearing you become very emotional in your audio book reading and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Would they tell you stories of your parents?

Was that were your parents like, you even say that meeting your dad was almost like meeting a celebrity or like you've heard about this man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he asked you who, do you know who I am? And you spoke of, you gave his full name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm meeting Johnny Depp.

maybe not the best reference to make now but you know like I'm curious what was what would do you remember what they told you about them yeah I guess if you can imagine this like weird

you know it almost like this like prophecy yeah that like you were being you know it's like you're being inundated with this from from birth basically like your your dad is it's like you're the Messiah like your dad is going to come and take you

to this like new place and then in this new place, you know, everything is better. And, yeah, you, you know, the sky is blue and the whatever, you know, and it's utopia. And of course it's not true,

but like, that's the kind of legend that they sell you. Yeah, it's just, it's just Canada. I mean, it's a pretty good country, but, but, you know, every country has its problems. But, but yeah, it was, it was kind of this, this narrative that had kind of been etched into, into my brain. And so, and I had spoken to him on the phone, you know,

but, but it just, It's just a voice. So you have nothing. Like you have no ability to become attached to this person. And then he shows up right in front of you and you're like, that's not. It's like, well, whoever he was in that moment, he couldn't possibly have met that, like, amount of prophetic expectation that had been placed on him, you know. Yeah.

So cut to you, you know, I mean, we'll probably go in and out of other parts of your childhood. Sure. But, but, you know, so as we. typically start snapshot at 12 years old i'm curious you know how has that evolved you you you do go into it in great detail in your book and i mean as a as a host as a co-host of this show i was really appreciative of how much you get into not only your own adolescence but the actually the childhood and adolescence of your parents and i'm curious how much that i actually wished i was like i wish every guest had a memoir where they talked about their parents origin story because it's so informative you know

I guess I'm curious about, so first of all, just day-to-day life then, right? Like just day-to-day life, what was it like at this new prep school? And then I'm also curious, how aware at this age were you of the specificity of their stories? Did you only learn about that later? Like, I know you felt the burden, as you kind of described. So please just give us a whole, you do the storytelling. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, I mean, 12, you know, about the time that we were all kind of starting to develop hormones

And I was, you know, I think up until that point, very much living the life that my parents set out for me. And, you know, it's based on their upbringing and their values. But, you know, the long and the short of it is that their whole mechanism for upward social mobility was academic achievement because they couldn't possibly, they didn't understand the culture here. You know, it wasn't like they really spoke the language, you know, they weren't native speakers. And so whatever success that they had and even their ability to leave. their country was predicated on this idea of, like, being a really, they were both engineers, so being really great engineers, being really great at their job, testing really well. And so, like, so, I feel like, like, so many immigrant parents, like, you hear this over and

over again, you know, like, oh, my parents told me I can only be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer when I grew up. And a lot of that is because of familiarity, right? It's because, you know, those are the lines of work that they're familiar with and that they know that they could provide some sort of guidance in, that, you know, there's some sort of tangible tactile factor to these jobs that they can understand, whereas things, ephemeral things like artists and writers and things like, they were just not even begin to know how to broach that. And so, yeah, I would say, before I really knew who I was or who I wanted to be, I was just

who they wanted to be. And that was, you know, a kid that studied hard, tested really well. And then kind of puberty rolled around. And I started to realize that I was really not cool. It was a very, very distinct feeling where I was like, why is this guy Thomas McDonald with the frosted tips? I was like, why do all the girls that I have crushes on have crushes on Thomas McDonald? And it was this, you know, coming of age was this like really sobering feeling for me where I was like, wait, so none of the skills that I have are attractive skills in the like romantic. marketplace? That's what you're telling me? And so

and so me going to this to this like academic whatever prep school that I had to test into really unfortunately coincided with also the time in my life where I was desperately trying to to like shirk all of that

and be kind of my own person and what I thought was cool which was like you know like the OC came out when I was, you know, when I was like 14, I think. And it was like, I wanted to be that. I wanted to be like, One Tree Hill. Yeah, Ryan, maybe a little bit of Seth. I don't know, but just a little. Just a little sprinkle of humor in there. You know, One Tree Hill, Star Athlete. Like, I was kind of like really chasing, chasing that feeling when deep down, I guess I was like,

you know, my family, I was, I was like, oh, we're just, we're just like nerds. We're just, we're just a little nerdy people. Just on this topic of being nerds, a family of nerds. Sophie can relate. No, I... I mean, maybe the uncoolness, but not the smarts. But you talk about this in the book,

like you come from parents who seem like exceptionally brilliant and driven and that you talk really honestly about the tension. And just for clarity, they are objectively exceptional in the sense They belong to these very small groups. You know what I mean? So just for people start, keep going.

And you talk really honestly about the tension that that kind of caused between, maybe in particular you and your mom in your like adolescence. And I was curious because. You do say she's the bane of your existence. Yeah. The bane of your adolescence. I did not expect this level of research. Can I just say?

This is, we're one of the best. The three of us just co-wrote a book. And one of the things that I really struggled with was this feeling of, like, loyalty to my family and, like, not being able to be, like, totally. Candid, yeah. Maybe not to tell the stories that I might have told because, like, out of, like, honoring them. And I know, you know, your family is Chinese. I spent five years of middle school and high school in China. like filial piety, respect to your parents is such a, like, cornerstone of the culture.

So I'm just curious, because I know you interviewed them, too. So they must have had some idea about, like, what you were writing, read the book. I was curious how that played out. What was their reaction? What were the conversations like between you and them around them? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, when this kind of book project even came around, I was actually, like, I was Facebook messaged by a,

like a literary agent in 2019. I would almost say, before I even had Changchi, I was just this little Canadian microcelebrity because I was on this show called Kim's Convenience that did quite well. But, you know, I'd written this column for this Canadian magazine. And then so this agent, her name is Jackie Kaiser,

reached out on Facebook, which no one does anymore. Yeah, that's like, hey. Is this real? I know, totally. Yeah, no. You want to write a book? book, just send me a check for $5,000.

$10,000. Yeah, $10,000, and I promise, I'll write you a book. Yeah, she reached out and I very cautiously responded, but it kind of became very clear that she was very legitimate and was like, have you ever wanted to tell your story? And it was a big thing, you know, I was like 28, 29 years old. And I was like, well, first of all, I'm a fetus. So I don't know what, I don't know what really I have to offer. to the world in terms of in terms of something that they would want to read in a book. And then

I was thinking about it. So I initially had said no, and then I was thinking about it and thinking about it. And, you know, I was like on a call with my parents and they were telling me about something about their childhood. And I was just like, I remember thinking like, you know, to your point, Penn, like, wow, this is pretty incredible

stuff. Like, someone should write a book about that. Wait, I should write a book about that. Because really, everything that I've accomplished and every opportunity that I've been given and I'm able to have is because of them. And so that kind of was the mechanism that started at all. And then I typed up this proposal, you know, kind of half involving my parents, half me. And then we sold the book, which is really awesome. And then of course, you know, throughout the writing process, to your point,

Sophie, I started to like get into this territory of like this adolescent, you know, my relationship with my parents in my adolescence, which was kind of our most kind of acrimonious time, just because so many of the things that we wanted were in direct conflict with each other. So, yeah, there was a discussion of, like, how honest do we want to be? And there was an element of, like, I was trying to undo this idea of being a good Asian son and honoring the filial piety because I think, you know, I think mental health is quite a big issue in our community. And I think part of the reason why that is is because nobody wants to talk about the problems. And I think presenting face or presenting the image of a perfect family

and of perfection is so ingrained into a lot of our DNA. I want to speak for everybody. But certainly, you know, for my parents, that there was no transparency and there was no ability to be vulnerable with each other. And so, yeah, I think I, you know, I wanted to be honest about my experience not because I hate my parents and I want them to suffer and I want to air out of dirty laundry. But I knew that there were people out there like me who were struggling to make sense of their lives and struggling to make sense of what they wanted out of their lives and that this would be valuable for people like that to read in a book and to say there are people out there who are going through this and I'm not alone.

And I think that was more valuable to me than maybe this perceived idea of like saving, saving face for not only my parents, but for me too. I hope I was equally honest about how much of a shithead I was as a kid. Yes, yes. No, I don't know if I were articulated this when I asked the question, but I was inspired and moved by the honesty. I thought it was really refreshing.

It wasn't, yeah. Yeah, hopefully that was. Thank you so much. I want to go back to wait, you spent five, years in China. Navajo was in China too. I don't know how long. I spent two years. Yeah, I was there for two years. As an adult, though, I was teaching

at Chinghua University for a couple years. Wow. That's the best, that's the Harvard. Yeah, it's an amazing school. I met the coolest people in China. Yeah, Navajo's top Chinese scholar. I don't know if you were aware, but she's about to break into Chinese. Are you saying that you're the only

person in this entire who can't speak Chinese? So if I was to say We're going to say We're going to say But we're only the only Don't know Yeah, what a loser

I'm pretty sure what you said is next to the O.C and the other show you mentioned Yeah, that's true, that's true. Gossip Girl number one. Yeah, he said Dan Humphrey is tattooed on my chest. In Chinese, though, it's Chinese name. Yeah.

Mandra. What would his Chinese name be? I have no idea. Oh, I would have. I want to know. And we'll be right back. Okay, I'll be honest with you. There are some things where there's areas in my life where I still find it hard to truly adult.

You know, go full adult mode. I may have four children. I may never feel like an adult. We'll see. One of the things that I never do is set up a plan when I'm traveling. to a foreign country so that I have service when I land. It's almost, it's comical, it's terrible, it's really frustrating. And to be honest, the last several years, considering how many children I have,

the only time I travel is for work for like maybe say an event, you know, and I land and I've really got to find people and I often discover that I cannot. And, you know, if it weren't for having an airport greeter and a driver pick me up, I'd be completely lost. I would be in total panic mode. Now, for those of us who, you know, might not have a greeter at the airport or a driver hired by the company that's flying you to another country, what you got to do is you got to pack the internet with you. Right? This is exactly what Aero lo lets you do. Your phone probably supports ESIMs, which is where Aeroa comes in. Before you even leave, just download the Aeroa app, pick your destination ESIM, choose your plan length and data amount, install it, and boom, you're connected the moment you land. It's really that easy. No surprise roaming fees, no sketchy airport kiosks, no desperate hunt for public Wi-Fi. Just pay for the data you need and top up any time.

You can stream, scroll, text, navigate, and even video call home without stressing about your bill. Aeroa works in over 200 destinations and is trusted by over 20 million travelers. Honestly, I just wish I'd known about it sooner. So do what I'd do. If you have an international trip coming up, download the Aeroa app now or visit AeroLo.com. that's a i r a l o dot com and use code podcrushed for 15% off your first e-sim terms apply all right so if you're a parent like me i'm a father now of four boys if you haven't heard me mention it before then you're probably not a listener of the podcast much are you uh it's really hit me hard because guess what

uh i i have twins i have pretty newborn twins they're they're just over three months old now and in fact if you listen closely you can hear one on my chest right now, sleeping in a wrap, which I love. I love wearing my babies whenever I can, truly. But that means that when they're pressed up against me like this, guess what? There's zippers and buttons on so many baby clothes, on all of them. And when they're pressed up against me like this, it can be kind of uncomfortable for them, depending on, you know, the item of clothing.

Some of them more so than others. now there's this brand magnetic me that makes this way easier it's a serious game change your parents really if you haven't tried these clothes with the easy to use magnetic closures now is the time so i just got a couple of things my wife might prefer you know one item or another there's the magnetic romper that i know we like for me it kind of doesn't matter it's it's the fact that it makes diaper changing a breeze when it's in the middle of the night anybody who's ever changed a diaper in the middle of the night i mean it can get messy Uh, you, you, you need to be able to act fast, you know. Uh, this is essential. I actually can't

believe it took someone this long to figure this out. Trust me. You need Magnetic Me to make changing time easier for you and baby. If you're a parent or shopping for one for the holidays, go now to MagneticMe.com. They have the cutest gift boxes to wrap gifts and have anything from baby to toddler. Plus, new customers will get 15% off. Don't wait. That's magnetic me.com. If you have got travel coming up, visiting family, heading abroad, maybe, or maybe you've got a dream trip for the new year. Imagine feeling confident greeting people where you're going in their own language.

Rosetta Stone makes it easy to feel more connected and have a richer experience wherever you go. With 30 years of experience, millions of users, and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese and more. Rosetta Stone is the go-to tool for real language growth. Rosetta Stone fits your lifestyle with flexible on-the-go learning. You're able to access lessons from your desktop or mobile app, whether you have five minutes or an hour. For me, my 16, nearly 17-year-old, he is now in, I think, Spanish 3. He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish.

If he had someone in the house to speak Spanish with, I really want to be able to live on this. I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start, naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that. I love how their true accent feature gives real-time feedback on my pronunciation. It's helping me feel a little bit more confident, sometimes a lot more confident in my Spanish-speaking abilities. Don't wait, unlock your language learning potential now. pod crush listeners can grab rosetta stone's lifetime membership for 50% off that's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life visit rosettastone.com slash podcrushed to get started and claim you are 50% off today give a gift that keeps giving go to rosettastone.com slash podcrushed and start learning simu can you tell us a little bit more about your relationship with your grandparents what

What was it? I'm curious what it was like after you left, like when you went to Canada. Were you able to see them? Did you talk to them on the phone much? Yeah, you talk about this really sweet, sweet and sad moment in the book where your parents send a video back to your grandparents thinking it's going to be kind of like a funny. You're getting scolded in the video and they think it's going to be funny, but your grandparents were saddened by it because they had this like really affectionate loving relationship with you. Also, that makes sense because you were zero to four. It's a different, you know. It's a different, yeah, it's a different relationship. If you had five, you got to tell these kids what's going on.

Yeah, yeah, no, completely. I have a five-year-old, just for reference. You got to, yeah, you got to lay the hammer down. Now, I mean, I think there's something to be said, too, for my parents of, like, you know, they obviously weren't able to be with me for the first five years of my life. And so it was something they always dreamt about. And so that reunion of the family is very much a happy ending for them. And if it were a movie, and I think I say this in the,

the book but if it were a movie it would you know the music would swell and we'd zoom out and we'd be like oh the family's finally together they lived happily ever after um but but the reality of that situation was that they were completely unprepared totally to have a chip right like they they they completely missed the formative years which means like the diapers the cry you know the sleep schedule the crying and then and then all of a sudden attachment too it's just yeah and the physical level you just you know so much love and attachment is built up and like your own crash course as a parent. I have a two-year-old and I was trying to imagine like what would it be like if I was just dropped in at four? It's like totally different experience. Like I'm building up

this, yeah, attachment to her. Yeah, I like to say that I was adopted by my biological parents in a weird way. That is what happened to you. Yeah. So it was this like instant family in a lot of ways. Whereas, you know, with my, with my, yeah, yeah, and my nine, I think also because they were older, like, just were less, you know, they were just kinder and wiser and more patient. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I remember I slept in the, in the same bed with them every day. I don't know if that's, like, weird nowadays, but I'm so sweet. I slept in between them with my, my, yeah, yeah, and one side and my night and the other. And, yeah, I mean, it was, it was the best. I, I literally have nothing but good memories. And so when they were like trying to sell me in this

idea of a better future, it was always like, I don't, I don't see it, you know? Um, yeah. And then, and then I was able to keep in contact with them. They were able to come over to Canada for a short, short period of time. And then when I was about 10 or 11, um, we started to go back. So we were able to go back during my summer breaks and I would spend, yeah, like probably half my summer in China and I would be with them and I and I just like remember the first time I came back and then it was you know it spent the four weeks and it was great and then you know when it was time to go I was like bawling my eyes out and like begging to begging to stay you know because also yeah so I mean I think things with things with my parents and I again like I think we started off

okay but I think it was just very quickly like I just realized it was such a different familial dynamic and I was missing a lot of the warmth and a lot of the affectionate people. And yeah, it was really jarring for me, I think, growing up in that environment suddenly when I kind of the parental figures that I knew for most of my life were these, you know, just beings of like just limitless love. Simul, then you add to that the fact that you're like, like assimilating to a new country, your parents are assimilating to a new culture. And it sounds like there was a pretty strong element of like xenophobia and discrimination. So that's just like so

much to metabolize as a young person. And I'm curious how how it impacted your feeling of being Chinese particularly. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was like, like no one was like, you know, like throwing rocks at us or pitchforks or anything like that. But, but I think you would, you know, I feel like a lot of the prejudice that I felt and that we feel as a community, you know, the flavor of it for us is not overt. It's not direct. It's kind of this like always under the surface thing, which kind of, I'm not going to say it makes it worse, but it definitely makes it harder to call out. It makes it harder to, makes it very easy for people to say, whoa, whoa, hey, what do you mean? I wasn't, you know, but it's there. And, you know, and, you know, growing up, I would say the easiest way that I saw it was just the way that I just, I saw the way that the world treated my parents once they realized that they weren't native English speakers. Like, they just became, you know, it was just like a gloss over or it was just like a kind of impatience.

And, and, you know, I think we've all kind of felt that at some point in our lives, too. Like, I've even caught myself feeling that at times about, you know, whatever people that I account are. encounter in life and it is like I always have to catch myself and like remind myself like this whoever this person is they came from another country to be here and there's always always a pretty incredible story about how that came to be and and so I've just got to be a little bit more empathetic about it but but yeah it's it's a lot of that just like things that you can't necessarily say this was an overt act of discrimination but it's it's there you feel it you feel the vibe of it And that was, yeah, that was the flavor of a lot of it.

And, you know, what that kind of resulted in was just this, like, I guess this, like, feeling of shame, the feeling of shame of being different, which I think we all have to some degree when we're young, you know. I just feel like, especially in that if you grew up in the 90s, it's like, whatever made you different got bullied out of you. I think that was just the name of the game back then. And for me, it was, it was being Chinese, you know, down to the lunches that I would bring to school. and things like that. So, yeah, I was like, don't give me the ethnic stuff. I just want luncheibles. Like, please stop cooking for me.

Lunchables is like the worst food. I totally don't know. I totally so bad. Yeah, yeah. And it's all I wanted. Yeah. Not my parents' lovely cooking that they, yeah. I really like the point you made, Simu, about how each of us, like, in our daily lives

or at some point we'll encounter someone from another country who's maybe struggling in some way. and like we have a choice about the way to treat them. I just want to share, I lived in China for two years in my 20s, and I can imagine that not everyone of every nationality has this experience in China, but the experience that I had was like being met with intense curiosity and like hospitality. Like any, I can't even think of one person I met in China who I didn't have honestly that kind of a pleasant experience with

where it was like, this is my country and I want you to love it. Can I like show you around? Like what of China would you like to experience? And, like, that's a way that you can meet new people. Like, it doesn't have to be with, like, suspicion or wishing them ill or, like, you know, like a distance. And I, like, I've lived in many countries and I've only experienced that in China where, like, people want you to be, like, welcome and, like, are hospitable and are curious about you. It was so amazing to experience that. Oh, man.

Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. Ironically, I don't feel like I get that in China because they're like, oh, who are you? I'm not as curious about you. No, well, they're like, I think there's a sense of like, they're like, oh, he grew, like, he's one of us, but he didn't grow up with, and then the moment I open my mouth, I give away that I'm not a, like, I'm not a native Mandarin speaker anymore. And so it's, yeah, it's, it's, there's always this like, he doesn't even speak Chinese. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Was there, um, were there moments in your youth where you felt like unexpectedly proud of being Chinese or Canadian Chinese? Unexpectedly proud. Or expectedly.

Yeah. Or expect. Like it sounds like, I mean, the food, like real Chinese food is amazing. When you started to describe the difference between bastardized Chinese food and real Chinese food, like a simple steamed rice with some stir-fired vegetables and brazed meat, I was like, I literally started talking about where can I find good Chinese food in Austin. It's so good. This is so pitiful.

I did go to, I was in Beijing for like, like very, very, like 36 hours or less. Oh, man. But it was the first time I had, what I would say is authentic Chinese food. And I was like, this is phenomenal. This is, you know, it's, but the bastardized version in America has always been one of the, it's like, it's not my favorite. It's really, it's like not what I'll ever go to. Yeah.

It's amazing the difference. Yeah. But it sounds like the food wasn't that for you necessarily because you were wanting luncheables, But were there other aspects? Yeah, I feel like all of my, all of the like pride that I felt about my culture has been almost like after the fact. Like it's, it's, I really hit it in my, in my like mid to late 20s looking back because it's, I think that's the moment that you like real, you spend so long trying to run away from where you came from, whether it's, you know, and for some, I think it's their culture or the things that made them different, you know, for me. And my parents, by the way, had something to do with. all that too because it was like I had associated, you know, them with the culture and also with

like, you know, in me making the decision to pursue acting for the first time as a, you know, 23 year old adult with no connections and no training, they were like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And they had a pretty fair point, but I kind of, I had to run away from all of it, you know, and so, yeah, the book and writing the book and interviewing them, it kind of came at a point in my life where I was ready to embrace it again. And then it was like, oh, no, this is pretty, our food is pretty awesome. Like our culture, you know, not without its flaws, but it's something I'm very proud of. And it's mine, which is really, really cool.

But yeah, at the time, I would say I was probably doing everything that I could to, like, I guess you could say to whitewash myself. There was a term in our community even called a banana, which was like yellow on the outside, but white on the inside that was like almost weirdly aspirational like I knew kids that would go around

being like yeah I'm basically like a banana like it was almost a point of pride like yeah I don't even speak Chinese anymore like that's how white I became and there's something really sad about that that all is relatable my family moved to Puerto Rico

when I was really little and my dad's American my mom's Persian so anyway I'm relating to almost everything you're saying like the food rejecting it like not being proud until I was older and all that but I'm going to pivot which is earlier you talked about

having all of these skills that didn't apply in the romantic arena and that made me curious what were your first experiences around like crushes and fatuations? How did you navigate all that? Yeah, poorly, poorly. I guess, you know,

and I'm not saying that like swag or like Riz can, is, you know, is hereditary or is somehow, you know. But I do think that if you have like, you know, kind of cool, charming parents who, you know, who did well for themselves back in the day, it certainly helps you. And for me, I mean, I definitely, at least, at least none of it would, none of it translated.

So it didn't make it quite past the cultural gap. Yeah, no, the Riz didn't, was somehow lost in, lost in translation. Did you talk about your, I think your mother's father, you said, was quite, he had some RIS. Is that true? my dad's father my yeah yeah my dad's father he he I think like he was like courting my my grandmother at some point and like made some grand romantic gesture I think I think he was like he his family like owned a factory or something and then he really really liked my grandma and she was you know like really big on education and she was like I want to go to college and I don't think I can be with you unless you go to college and he like upended his whole life and he went to and he became a professor to taught chemistry in a university.

So he, I mean... You come from a long run of professors. Well, it's not professors, but academics. Yeah, academics. Like heavy STEM academic people. Yeah. So no Riz.

How did you, did you fake it until you make it? You just kind of like let it go. Yeah, I just didn't have anyone to talk to it about. And my parents were anytime I would even try to like broach a conversation, And they'll be like, what are you doing? Like, you should be studying. Like, this is not your focus right now. And so, yeah, it was, you know, so I get into this new school and it's, and it's tiny.

It's about 100 kids in a grade. So everyone, everyone knows each other. And I'm like, I feel like puberty manifests in a lot of different ways for different people. And I'm like this very attention seeking, very like, come look at me, but like no substance. So I was, I was like, you know, if I'm just like, like, that was how I enjoyed. internalized it. If I was just like loud and flashy, then maybe I, you know, that, that's what would attract the girls, which of course didn't work. But I will say we did have like a number of dances every year. Like every school does. But like we had like Halloween dance, holiday dance like Valentine's Day, semi-formal or whatever. And then Easter dance. And so those are the like little moments where I was like, that's how I'm going to get them. And it was it was the slow dances. but it was also the like build-up to each dance, right? Because then as soon as one dance finished,

it became about like, who am I going to ask to the next one? And it just enacted this whole two-month plan to like become friends with, you know, a girl enough to be like, hey, do you maybe want to go to this dumb thing together? It's very charming. Just so that we could get the, you know, the like, I do this because I was a small kid. Like, totally tall in me.

Do you remember a particular slow dance to a particular song? Like when you said slow dance at a school dance, the first song that came to my mind was, Hey, there, Delilah. I specifically remember dancing with Enzo to that song. God, you sound so young when you said. That is really young. That's a college, yeah, that's a college song for me.

No, it's Casey and Jojo all my life. Yes, that's the, yes, that's it. That's the one. Penn and I are the same generation. Yeah, you guys are. Yeah. Yeah, it was all my life. It was, you know, this I promise you in sync, shaping my heart.

Yeah, those are all amazing. Yeah, but all my life was like the coolest one. Simu, how do we transition, like, how do we go from young, man, like, line of academics to where you are today? Can you kind of walk us through your journey? I understand there was like a brief period as an accountant. Can you sort of walk us through your journey from where you were then to sort of your your career now. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think over the course of my time at this like very academic prep school where everyone, you know, part of the reason why my parents were willing to spend the

money to send me was because they were kind of known as this like doctor factory that like out of the 100 kids that were graduate like 20 would wind up going to premed, like 20 would go pre-law. And so it was like it was like the school to go to for for immigrant families. And so that was their hope. And I think it was just becoming like, increasingly obvious that I wasn't that. Like, I really, and to their, you know, to their defense, I think I really set them up for it. Like, I think over the first, like, few years, like, in primary school, I was, I was, like, academically stellar. And so, you know, by their, by their metrics, they're like, oh, yeah, he's doing what he should be doing based on our long line of very, very smart people, you know.

Brilliant. Of brilliance, exactly. I've expected brilliance. People who literally toiled in the fields And made their, like, fought their way into the one spot In a reopened university Yes, yep Be every social and economic odd

Yes, yes, in order for this kid Yeah To fuck it all up because he wanted to take a girl to the dance Yeah, that's, um Who is this Casey and Jojo? Where are there? Damn it. Yeah, so, so, um, So that was kind of, it was a rude awakening for them, unfortunately.

And it was when we fought definitely the most. But going to business school was kind of this like compromise, this unspoken compromise that we had. Because I knew I wasn't going to be an engineer and I knew I wasn't going to be a doctor. What did you want? What did you feel? This is really tough. I don't think I ever like really thought critically about my future in a way, which is weird. But I think it was also because my, my, growing up in that kind of household with those kind of expectations, it was very difficult to think for yourself, I think. I don't want to put the blame. I want to blame my parents necessarily. But it was, it was hard for me to keep in touch with like who I was, what I wanted because it was like these things never mattered. So how could I, what reference points that I even have other than episodes of the OC that I was watching?

You know? And so I wanted to be the captain of my basketball team. I wanted to play sports and be a jock. I didn't necessarily know what I wanted beyond that. And, you know, maybe business school was like it was this, it was a gateway to this like maybe kind of life that felt like it was aspirational, right? Like you put on a suit and tie to go to work every day. You maybe have a nice apartment in the city. Like that felt like. And hopefully you made a lot of money. So at that point, I was, I'm, you know, I'm maybe being like really hard on myself. But I think that's all I really knew. And I was like, okay, that's enough. Because at that point, we had had zero conversations about what I wanted. We had a zero conversation about passion, about interest, anything like that. So I was like, yeah, okay, business school, sure.

And I was a shitty student in high school. And I was a shitty student in college and business school. and then somehow, you know, found my way to an accounting job. And then I spent nine months as an accountant was the worst nine months of my life. I was truly like soul-sucking and terrible. And I apologize for anyone who's listening who is an accountant. That's exactly what I imagine accounte is.

Right. And the thing is, I've met lots of happy accountants out there. And I want, like, I just, it makes me so happy. Yeah, they're out there somewhere. Somewhere. My sister is an accountant. Oh, I didn't remember that. My sister's an accountant, and she's really good at it.

Yeah, hi, Jenna. I think she's currently, her job is, like, so much work that she's going through a rough patch. But in general, she loves it. She's really good at math. Okay. There is people who love it, yeah. There is specific personality traits that will excel in that kind of line of work. And I had none of those traits.

And so I was going to work. I hear you need Riz mostly to be an accountant. It was really a Riz heavy job, which is weird. Yeah, it's really weird How much risk that Yeah, it was tough I think I had a lot of like creative, creativity in me

I was a part of my hip hop dance team My competitive hip hop dance team in college And that was kind of like How I, yeah Wait, hold on That means you're like amazing at hip hop I'm like kind of good, yeah Yeah, wow, okay

I never want to you know our culture it's all about humility but no I'm pretty I'm pretty good at this which is why I really appreciated Penn your spirit tonal dance I was like that man that white boy can move

there's somebody who posted in something like a like a weekend like a weekend at Bernie's I think it's I think Bernie might be wearing a white suit or there is some thing that like a gift or a gif that somebody posted of Bernie

like being moved around in this way that I thought looked so much like what I was doing because I was also very embarrassed and having an out-of-body experience. No, not at all, not at all. But, you know, you're a natural performer. And I think I was like, that was where my performance first started to, like, come out

and my love of performing first started a show. And then, yeah, you know, fast forward to, you know, being an accountant, smash cut to you're at an office and and you're literally your only job is to do this spreadsheet exactly the same way as you as the person last year did it like exactly i mean there is creativity is like a bad word in accounting like there's absolutely no room for creativity the the the law is what it is the generally accepted accounting principles are what they are and um and so yeah it was it was pretty it was pretty terrible and i skipped work one day to be an

extra on Guillermo del Toro's movie Pacific Rim and I got caught. How'd you get caught? Yeah, how did you get caught? Who's looking out for you? Who is this? The Copenhagen test?

Yeah, this is a... Nice. And now we segue. And now we segue. No, no. Seriously, how did you get caught? Well, I turned my phone off. So I should say, so it was around

March, April. Our accounting busy season is like January to April. So it was kind of on the tail in a busy season, but I was not a great accountant, so they were purposefully, I was not on like a heavy-duty client. And it had been maybe like a week and a half since anyone had wanted anything from me. I was just basically like doing filler work every day. I was like coming in and doing like small spreadsheets for like, I was floating. And, and I, you know, this ad on Craigslist came, came by. And I was just like, I was on Craigslist every day because obviously it wasn't doing

work. And so I really wanted to do this. I really wanted to be on a movie set. So I dragged my best friend Jason along with me. And yeah, I was like, yeah, no one's going to call. No one's going to ask for me. There's no way. It's like the perfect crime.

And then I literally, I finished the day, it was a 15 hour day, freezing cold, but it was awesome. And I turned my phone on, and I had like 47 missed calls. Oh my God. This is insane. It was because for some reason, I think I had like on a spreadsheet incorrectly.

And on that particular day, there was a senior manager that was like looking for me and couldn't find me. And so, and so yeah, I had a big talking to and then I was fired probably like less than a month later.

And I think that was the big kind of demarcation point in my life where I was like, oh shit, yeah, like, you know, everything in my life, all of the culmination of like all of this, you know, this expectation

that had been put on me by my parents, all of it had kind of resulted in just this epic, spectacular failure. And I was kind of at this rock bottom. And you're about how old now? Like, do you said 23? I'm a week away from turning 23. It was April 12th, 2012. And I guess I was just like, look, none of this, like, living for my parents,

none of this, like, trying to make them proud thing has worked so far. And I might as well, I didn't have this thought, like, all right in April 12th, you know? It definitely came gradually, but I was... Around like April 13th and 14th. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely more of a 14th kind of thing. But, like, I thought, like, I might as well try to live life on my own terms because this life that I had built, according to somebody else's definition of success,

had just collapsed so spectacularly. And so, yeah, I was like, why not? Let's give it a try. And I think in the beginning, I was like, if I could just get a speaking role on a, on a TV show. I would be so happy. I would be able to show my kids, hey, your dad gave it a go.

And that's worth something, you know. And no one could ever take that away from me. And then, you know, went to like a boutique Toronto talent agency and kind of lied my way, kind of gave him like a fake resume and somehow I was able to like get an agent and start auditioning. And I booked my first speaking role. like not too long after that,

which is like crazy unheard of. Wow. It would be crazy unheard of in L.A. But, you know, Toronto's a, it's a small market. And so, and there were like very few Asian actors in that market. And it was a time where diversity

was becoming more and more of a thing. And so I think I was like, I just like felt myself being pushed into audition rooms, maybe before I was even really ready. But I got a lot of chances. And yeah, I got to play Hong Kong Descop number one on a show called Nikita.

Nikita. Nikita's great. It's a good show. Yeah. I watched that show. With Maggie Q and Shane West. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It was so good. Amazing. Amazing. I'm in episode 301 for like three seconds. Okay, I'll have to go back to it. But it became, yeah, once I booked it, I mean, I knew that it wasn't going to be enough and I knew that I wasn't going to be able to stop. And I just kind of kept going after that.

Stick around. We'll be right back. If you're a last-minute shopper like me, you are very familiar with this feeling. It's the week before Christmas, store shelves are starting to empty out, and even worse, you're totally out of ideas. Well, the good news is there's a super easy and super personal gift idea out there just waiting for you to add to cart. A digital picture frame from Aora frames.

ORA makes the best digital picture frames out there. I know I have two. They have timeless designs. crystal clear displays. You can upload as many photos and videos to your frame as you want. Just download the ORA app, connect to Wi-Fi, and start loading it up with all your favorite picks. You can even preload photos onto your frame before it ships. So it's all ready to go when it arrives, keeping it simple for the less tech savvy people in your life. Plus, every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. And you can add your own custom message

before it arrives. Every single year, I struggle with what to get my sister for the holidays, but not this year. I've already ordered her a carver matte frame from ORA, and I know she's going to love it. I've already preloaded it with a bunch of cute pictures of her kids, of me and my dad, of her little dog Toby. What more could Jenna want? It'll be like having her family around all year, which I know is always her biggest desire. You can't wrap together. You can't wrap together. but you can frame it. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting oraframes.com to get $35 off ora's best-selling carver mat frames, named number one by wirecutter by using promo code podcrushed at checkout. That's a-U-R-A-Frames.com promo code

podcrushed. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. I mean, what's the point? Otherwise, is just more stuff. But Quince has beautiful, timeless pieces that people are going to wear for years. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everyone. It's got leather jackets, silk tops, and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm, but still looks good. Their Italian

wool coats are a standout for me, beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and crafted to last for seasons. I have one in my shopping cart right now because I have been the type of person who, when I get invited to go to like a dinner or go out at night and it's cold, I'm stuck. I have nothing nice to wear. I've got like a nice outfit on and then it's ruined by an ugly puffer jacket. And so it's a bad time. I'm 31. I need to step it up in life. I need to have a beautiful coat. And so I'm going for one of these quince Italian wool coats that are just classic but beautiful. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com slash podcrushed for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's

Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash podcrushed to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. There's no feeling quite like seeing my favorite store pop up on Rackettin because you know what that means. I get to buy all the items that might already have in my cart, and Rackettin is going to reward me with cash back after purchasing. It's a win-win. Rackettin is especially great around this time of year because it lets you stack cash back on top of the holiday deals that stores are already offering. For example, If your favorite store is having a sale for 20% off and Racketon has 15% cash back, you can stack the two deals together to maximize your savings. That's savings on top of savings. That's what I like

to hear. Racketon partners with all your favorite stores across categories like fashion, beauty, wellness, electronics, home essentials, travel, dining, and so much more. They have their hands in everything. I recently picked up this under-eye color corrector from Tart, and luckily, tart is on Racketon, so I was able to get some cash back. There's nothing I love more than that. It justifies the purchase for me. It is super easy to sign up for Rackaton, and membership is free. You can go to Rackatin.com, download the app, or install the browser extension. Join today for a new member welcome bonus after minimum qualifying purchases, terms and conditions. apply. I'm really curious about the, about the, what got you into that room on that first call,

you know, being called up by Marvel is obviously, it's like it's, it's, it's, it's like being called up by the government, you know, it's like being, it's, uh, it's that it's, there's only one call. There's only one, uh, you know, Marvel. And, and, and it, and it happens to the, biggest actors, the most talented actors of our generation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why this guy? What the hell? Yeah, if I could reverse engineer it and try

to make some sense of how this all happened. Well, like, I guess I'm just curious, like, because this is what I'm least familiar with, is this period between you kind of breaking in and then getting there. So just give us a quick, you know,

quick arc of like how all that happened. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Sure. So April 12th, 2012, I get laid off for my job. I decide, hey, I'm going to give this acting thing a try. I think I booked the first speaking role on Nikita episode 301 in May June. And, you know, I'm like, oh, at this rate, I'll be like a series regular by the end of the year. This is easy. And of course, what followed was like four years of just abject poverty and like living below the poverty line. And, you know, not talking to my parents because, of course, they had just owned, you know, really effectively just owned me. But I was doing what I could. I was maybe, I would get like a commercial here. You know, I was, we all know that life. Like, you know, if you book like two, you know, two roles on two TV shows and you're in a national commercial, like, you're cooking.

You know, that's a good year. Yeah. And so, and so for four years, it was a lot of time off. A lot of time off. A lot of long, sleepless nights, a lot of frustration. A lot of time off. But I did everything I could. I loved being on set.

And, you know, I was a more motivated person as a struggling actor than I ever was as a shitty student at prep school. So, you know, I was, like, digging this new part of me. I was like, I could get behind the fact that I'm, like, at least, like, motivated and passionate about all this. So, yeah, four years go by, really, really hard. But, like, you know, making incremental problems. And then in 2016, got cast in a sitcom called Kin's Convenience, which at the time was this little Canadian show about an immigrant family,

which was really, really sweet. And I didn't know it, but that show would change my life. Because in our second season, first of all, it was good enough to even go more than one season, which was pretty great. And then in our second season, our rights sold to Netflix, are international rights.

So all of a sudden, kind of overnight, we were international in like over 150 countries and just completely blew the world wide open for me. And I started going down to L.A. to audition, you know, partially out of this sense of like feeling like I love Canada. I loved where I came from and I love Toronto. But I did feel like there was a lack of a star system

and a star-making ability there. And so if I stayed, you know, and this show, you know, played out when it's course, and then it ended, which of course inevitably it will. All shows do. Even an amazing one like Gossip Girl has to end Sunday. It's a reboot, you know? Yeah, no, and then it gets rebooted years later. It lives on forever.

But I knew that I would, if I didn't make moves, I would be back at Square One and I would be auditioning for those commercials and for those like little, you know, day player roles again because that's how the Toronto system worked and so if I wanted a shot at like you know just getting to actually make something I had to go to L.A.

And so I started auditioning. I would shoot the show during the summers and I would like hop over to L.A. for the pilot seasons and whatever other time I could and I did that for a number of years until 2019 when I had a manager in L.A. at this point

who I had cold emailed and had just, like, I never really met. But he was like, hey, Marvel's, you know, Black Panther was super successful. Crazy Rich Asians were super successful. Diversity is in right now. And Marvel is fast-tracking this Shang-Chi movie. And I was like, great, who's Shang-Chi? I have no idea who that is. And I read comic books.

I'm like, who is that? But, you know, sure enough, I got to send in a tape. And of course, it's one of those things where, we've made so many tapes over the course of our career you know so many go into the ether so many get forgotten but for whatever reason um you know they were like oh the director like saw the tape and he really liked it so um you know would you be willing to fly down to to meet him and that was about july june june of of 2019 and then i was cast in i was cast in july so yeah that's crazy that's like a meteoric arise is that Because just because of the way it's done, what I was realizing, as I was learning about your arc, I was like, I just kind of assumed that you had, that, I want to say this in a way it's constructive

because it wasn't at all like, not even close to criticism, but it's just like I, because of the way Marvel is, I just would have assumed like, oh, this guy has like a lot behind him already. And you didn't, which I think is far more impressive. You know, it's just a lot more about the fact that you, when you have this opportunity, you were like, there's so much pressure. It's not like you're being grandfathered in

because of some career behind you. You're like trying to get this thing. I would think. But also like that must have been one hell of an audition. I really want to see your self-tape. You must have like blown them away. It was, yeah, it was three stages. It was the, you know, the self-tape was dummy sides

because they're always so secretive about it. So I was doing scenes from Goodwill Hunting. Interesting. And maybe trying to tone down the Bostonian. accent as much as I could. But it's hard. But it's hard. It's hot.

How do you like that? But I was curious. I asked Dustin later why it was Goodwill Hunting because I also fucking love that movie. It's one of my favorites. And he was like, well, Goodwill Hunt. If you think about it, Goodwill Hunting is also about a man who's in hiding. The entire movie is trying to hide himself from, you know, he's tried to hide from

himself. He's trying to hide from the world. And he's like kind of in a, he's running away from his, from his trunk. And in a lot of ways, Sean is doing the same thing in Chongchi. So, yeah, I did scenes from Goodwill Hunting. And then in the second audition, I think, were scenes from the movie. But at some point, I mean, it all really just, it's such a blur in my mind. But I think at some point, we like, I remember physically throwing the pages because

he was like, let's just try, like, improvising through the pages. And we were improvising with each other. It was like something special happened in that callback that I think. And you would have to ask Destin, what he thinks? thinks, but, like, I think that won me the job. It was something about the, like, or the, like, state of play that we entered into, something that's special and doesn't happen in most audition rooms, you know? And then the screen test, I think I did fine, but I think I was really, I think the callback

was really what won him over. Wow. And then, yeah, I mean, I hear your point about the, about the, like, you know, not having that much behind me. But then, and then, to be fair, it's, like, not a lot of Asian actors did. And then when you like narrow down the parameters of what you were looking for, which is like someone in their like maybe mid to late 20s who is specifically Chinese because, you know, Shangxi is a very specific Chinese character.

There was, yeah, I mean, I think the list was like this long. How was that screen test? I would think, I mean, I feel like for anybody, it doesn't matter even if you're like Robert Downey Jr. I think a screen test for Marvel is probably quite nerve-wracking. Yeah, you know, I was, I was shooting. my pant. No, that's as crazy as it gets in terms

of stakes. Yeah, I just remember, I mean, I'm such a nerd. I was like playing, I like played the Avengers end game like, you know, the score. Oh, wow. I was like listening to it in my ear pods, like the entire flight over. It was, the screen test was in Brooklyn and I

remember I had to get up at like 5.30 in the morning to fly in. But, but yeah, it was the most nervous I've ever been in my entire life. I would say that's number one. Hosting SNL was probably number two. Yeah.

Oh my God. But of course, by then, I mean, I already had the job then, so it wasn't that bad. But that, I mean, you talk about like, winner takes all, right? Like, there is no second place in that. Like, you either get it and your life is changed forever or you don't. And, you know, you go back to what, you know, and I didn't have a bad life, but it was like you go back to, you know, being on a sitcom and trying to make something work. Were your parents excited? Like, how did they respond to you representing the first ever Chinese superhero?

Yeah, I think they didn't really realize how big it was until, like, Chinese social media started to report it. And then they were like, oh, shit, this is crazy. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. No, they're stoked. And, you know, obviously, like, I was cast in 2019. So obviously, the pandemic happened in 2020.

And we shut down, you know, our shoot for four months in the middle. But over those four months, my dad, both my parents were furloughed. And my dad actually made the decision to retire during that process because he took a package because he, you know, I think I'm an only child. So he didn't really. His son was a marvel. Yeah, his son was a boy. He was like, I think I'm set. I'm good.

I bequeathed a Marvel superhero. I can retire. And at the end of the day, I think the, if it's. If it was something that I was directly responsible for was giving him a little bit more time, I think that's the best that I, you know, it's like the best gift that I could ever give. So I'm glad, I'm glad that he did that. And my mom retired shortly after. And now they're just, like, living their best life.

They're, they've gotten weirdly into hiking, even though they're, like, fast approaching 70, like long distance hiking. Like, Tour de Mont Blanc, like, crazy Europe hikes. I'm jumping around so much. but like that's like that's the rhythm of their of their lives right now rather than being worried about their you know struggling artist son so yeah they're the real winners in this you wait in the book you kind of start like you know i i realized once i was deep in i realized like you kind of you start your own story first by describing the the moment you got the call from Kevin. I still don't know. I think this man's not his name. Feigy?

Kevin Feigy. All right. Every time. I've seen it in writing so much, but, you know, having never had that call myself, I can only mispronounce his name. Kevin Feig.

My parents don't know how to pronounce his name either. To be, yeah, I think they change it every time they mention it. Fair, very. You start with that call, and, you know, I don't know how much you, were aware of your own sort of storytelling choice here but you know you go from that call where if i recall you say you sort of you sort of weep and and repeat over and over i'm going to be a superhero i'm going to be a superhero and which is a beautiful poignant

moment because right from there you then go basically to mid-century china to explore the origin stories of your parents yeah yeah and And I guess I'm just curious, like, you know, and now hearing about your meteoric rise, like what an event Shang Chi was and is, you know, in your life, I guess I'm just wondering, like, you know, knowing how much training there is, how much you kind of have to focus on the immediate future.

But did it also start some kind of, like, journey of deep personal deep introspection deep you're also kind of you're in your late 20s at this point is that right yeah yeah which is a time just turn 30 just okay so but either way that's it's a pivotal time

where you're where you're really reflecting on like your youth basically because your youth is sort of coming to some kind of a close you know I mean we're all quite young yeah I'm just wondering what it was like to be doing that while also possibly having this

like, I don't know, deeply personal experience of what it all, quote, unquote, means that I, you know, I don't think that all people who've been a Marvel superhero would have that moment necessarily. I mean, I think the dangerous thing that actually happens when you get a call like that.

And I think we've, you know, and I would say, I think, Penn, you've had, you've definitely had calls like that. I can either confirm nor deny if I've ever spoken to Marvel. Maybe not Marvel specifically, but I mean, you were a part of the biggest show in the world for a very, very long time. And, like, I think there's a danger because when you get a call like that,

it then retroactively, it's almost like human nature to, like, assign meaning to all of the steps that led you there. And it's like, this all led me here. It all led me here. And therefore, it was all the right decision. And then everyone around you is like, how did you do it? And then you're like, well, this is how I did it when, when, you know, the reality of it is that actually none of, you know, it could have been those things.

It could have been none of those things. you could have been an asshole the entire time, but just for that one moment in your auditioner, when it counted, you showed up, and then you got the part, and then all of a sudden it validated all of the asshole that you were before then, you know? Yeah, I think, and in trying to make sense of my life

and trying to find meaning in the prep school and the awkward and the not having any Riz and trying to get Riz and everything, there's something really grounding to me about, making it not about myself and um and thinking back to my parents and thinking back to you know the whatever they had to overcome in the midst of cultural revolution china which is you know just a very turbulent time in chinese history it's a novel by the way like the like that opening third or whatever of your book is like it's it's it really is like the story of your parents is this incredible story it's it's pretty rich that should be a of a trilogy of

films. I agree. I think actually my one critique on myself is that I really shot myself in the foot opening with that because it's so strong. Now we're going to Mississauga. Yeah. And then you're in Mississauga, Ontario and you're like, who's going to be this? What is this? No, it should be a film. It should be a film or a series. You've got to somehow figure that out. You already own it. I mean, it's a, it is a pretty spectacular just. just, you know, aesthetic and moment in history that I feel like not a lot of people here know about. And also if they, like, I just want to validate your, you know, the enterprise I'm sure you went on. I guess the reason I even asked the question that way is because it's like, I'm not, I'm not an idiot.

There are things I read about. I got to say, I was realizing as an American, I know, like, virtually nothing about Chinese history. I know, like, very, very little. And that's, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. they're not just, not just my own short kinds. And you do that in a really lovely way. You were telling Chinese

history of the last like 75 years or so. I mean, you know, you're not like getting super, super in depth, but in order to make story points in your parents and your grandparents' lives to be relevant, you have to then explain some of the particulars. So it's like,

so you're really feeling what it's like to live in this place and time in a way that I was just like, This is very, I mean, it's not what I thought I was getting into with your memoir, you know, and it's very, very, very interesting and beautiful and poignant. Oh, dude, thank you so much for saying that. That means the world to me. And, yeah, it was something that I had to, that kind of Western-centric bias is something that I also had to confront, by the way.

Because, you know, in the first draft of the chapters that I was turning in and showing my parents and, like, really excited to show them. I mean, like, look, I wrote about, like, you know, how hard your life was. I think they were like, this isn't, this isn't right. And I think I was leading with this kind of, again, very, like, Western lens on Chinese history, which is that it's all bad. It's all bad. It was so hard. There was so much suffering.

And, you know, I think it was objectively a very difficult time for the country. But I think also, you know, my parents, something they said that really kind of resonated with me is that they're like, When we think back to our childhood, we don't think about what we didn't have. We think about what we had. And if you summarize our entire childhood based on what we didn't have, then you're missing the whole picture. You're missing the whole point. And that really, really stuck with me. And I went back and I just rewrote the entire chapter because I was like, yeah, I had it so wrong.

I had it so wrong. And this isn't their story. This is my very Canadian or American impression of what their story would be. Right. And then I'm going to history or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One point like that is you say at some point that your mom would like covet these five cent pencils that had erasers on them. Yeah.

Because the ones that she would typically be able to buy are the three cent ones without the erasers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's things like that to really bring it to life, to bring anybody's story to life, like a moment in time. Like that's, that's the, some of what you're saying is like I can, you can really feel, I think what that, what that does, I mean, you know, this is maybe a bit in the weeds and we don't, we can cut this out. But I think having just written our own book and thinking about what it takes to tell a story, I think a moment like that is really nice because there's so much specificity there. And it's like, that's so relatable. Every eight-year-old wants, like, if, whether it's a tomogachi or a pencil with an eraser. or, you know, for like the rich kids of Park Slope.

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just found out what a looboo is. I thought it was a dog, by the way. Somebody asked me. Oh, nice. I thought it was some kind of a Labrador. Like boo the, well, you know,

boo the dog was like a whole celebrity for a while, so that makes sense. But anyway, you know, this, it's, I think, I want to honor what you, are saying you were trying to honor in your parents that you do, you feel a lot of, you feel, there's an incredible amount of, love and admiration there, you know, in the tellings of their origin story. Oh, thank you so much, man. Simu, I'm going to move us to a different topic. Back to Sean.

You're also here to promote, well, you're here to promote the Copenhagen test. That's right, right, right, right. We were so lucky to receive screeners. Did you pass? I usually will watch, I'll just watch one to, like, you know, be conversant enough. And your performance is incredible. You're so. There is a whole, like, a sheet that NBC gives us, like, what we can't say.

So we're like, okay, so it comes out December 27th then. Yeah, there's not much. But I did want to say, I feel like a lot of this series hinges, at least the pilot on your micro expressions. And, like, so much of your delivery is in these micro expressions in a way that, like, released it out to me. And so I was just curious, how did you master the art of the micro expression? Like, how did you, who you are is a mystery in the show, like, whether we can trust you, or not, there's so much there. So how did you sort of attack that performance?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, really. I think I just did my bad. No, yeah, the, you know, my character, Alexander Hill in the show, he finds out kind of midway through the pilot, and I think I can say this, but if I can't, whatever, what are they going to do? Your publicist will write us. Yeah, exactly, yeah, a very angry, angry, no.

He realizes halfway through the pilot that his eyes and ears have been hacked by this, like, like nanotechnology that's kind of broadcasting his brainwaves to an enemy. And so everything that he sees and everything that he hears is compromised. And so I think that's why he has to be extremely intentional about where he's looking, where he's not looking when he, you know, and he has to be very careful with the way he shows emotion and how he speaks. And so I think it's just, it's a, it's one of those like very cerebral kind of hooks that, you know, I think makes a viewer lean in, hopefully.

And yeah, it was a lot of like planning out where the, you know, I think actors kind of sometimes do this even just in general, but I think knowing that that was the premise of the pilot, like you, I think I just made like so many notes about where he would, where his eyes would be looking so that he wouldn't be looking anywhere, you know, where he wanted the audience to not be, or the audience slash enemy to not be looking at. And yeah, it was just this cool like inception kind of diary

that I, that I was keeping to try to keep track of it all. Oh, interesting. So you did, you were, you were you were, you were tangibly keeping track of that in a way? I was doing my very best. Yeah. I was doing my best. Yeah. So difficult. But that was the, I mean, that was the like, even

you know, for myself and all the cast members and our showrunners, it was constantly like, I mean, the amount of times that we were like, wait, okay, so, like, we know that they know right now, right? But then they, but then how are we, like, how are we doing it? So, do they know that we know that they know or not yet? And it was, I mean, it was truly like every day you would be hearing stuff like that. Oh, my gosh. There's a character in the show whose whole job is making predictions.

I loved that aspect. I thought it was so interesting. She uses a mix. They use a mix of research and intuition. I was curious what your relationship is with intuition and if you've ever had a gut feeling that you've trusted and it turned out to be right. Yeah, probably the biggest one.

I mean, the biggest one was coming out of that career in accounting. And like, I think I, going all the way back to 2012, I think there was like a very real, a very significant part of me that was like, don't press the button, man. don't do it like don't blow the whole thing up maybe you could go to law school like maybe you maybe it was just a bad office and like maybe you can interview for another firm and and just get back on the horse you know like this doesn't have to be the end we can keep trying and I think the gut like my gut was the thing that was was telling me um to kind of give this whole thing a go

and then and then I think a few years later when I was on Kim's convenience and starting to come out to L.A. for the first time, I think I was feeling a lot of resistance from my friends, from my parents, from even like people on the show that were like, what are you doing, man? You know? And my dad in particular was very, very adamantly against. He was just like, you should just be grateful for what you have. Like, this is incredible. Like, don't, you know, don't waste all your money now going to L.A. Like, you're going to need that money. And it was my intuition was like. So then when you let him retire, you were like, just so you know yeah no trust me there's been a lot of that told you so there's been a lot of that

yeah we're going to pivot back to adolescence for our final question yes please um if you could go back to your 12 year old self um 12 year old simu what would you say or do if anything yeah i think the advice that i would well first of all i would have a big existential debate about whether or not you know like the butterfly effect was a thing like i might just want to kind of keep it, keep it. Not interfere, keep everything as it was. But I think if I were to say something to young me, I think I'd probably just say like, you don't have to like stop living. You don't have to have validation from the outside is maybe less important than you think it is. I think that's something that was just ingrained in me so young. And like I struggle with it today, as I'm sure we all do in our own way. But like really, I, I struggled with it really, really badly. And I'm such a people pleaser my whole life and like wanting, yeah, just wanting

to be enough for other people. I think it's that. It's like you don't have to try so hard for everyone else. You know, try, try for you. I know, that's cliche, but yeah, that's what I got. Thank you so much, Sima. Yeah, thank you, Sima. What did you guys say?

Just out of curiosity. Well, you'll have to read the book. It's about 29.95 currently hard. When you were just saying, like, I'd have to have an existential debate, I was realizing, actually, I don't go up, I've said before I would go up to myself and say something, but I think now I would just, like, secretly, this sounds creepy, but I would just secretly, like, take a video and just, like, have that. I just want to watch me at 12. No. I just want to, like, watch me at 12 and then have that as, like, I don't have any, like, recordings like that. Yeah, interesting. I can go back and see myself at that stage. That's a great point, Sophie. You know, I mean, it's funny because you're bringing up, like,

it's like an unsurious but serious sort of way to... It's true that, like, you don't... You don't want to tamper with it because actually it's like you have to learn. Something magical about having to learn. Yeah, and that's like the beauty of the struggle, strangely. But I'm with you, Sophie. I actually, I would love to be able to see...

what that boy was actually like, you know, at 12. I probably, I would probably not step in and then I would see me, him talking to a girl and just failing miserable. And I'd be like, oh, my God. If I watch this for like one second more, I will physically die. You're going to be choosing between wedding planners. It's all going to work out.

Yeah. Oh, man. This was fun. Thanks so much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much. You can check out Simul. Leo in the Copenhagen Test, which premieres on Saturday, December 27th, on Peacock,

and you can follow him online at Simulio. Podfreshed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time, because guess what? You can listen completely ad-free. Plus, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content. Like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film Into the Wild had on him, the conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear

it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to LemonadaPremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's Lemonada Premium.com. Don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to Pod Crush ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David DeCovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe.

Make Life Suck Less. ads with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co-host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonata Media.