Podcrushed - Tyler James Williams

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Tyler James Williams (Abbott Elementary, Dear White People, Everybody Hates Chris) tells stories of jumping over tables to impress his middle school crush, recalls memories of how he quelled his own internalized feelings of rejection from his years playing a reject on television, and offers his philosophy on how film sets with both adult and child actors should run.    Follow Podcrushed on socials: TikTok Instagram XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada I can't remember what we were doing We were like coloring or something like that And she needed something She was like I need a whatever A pencil or crayon and whatever it was I got in trouble because apparently I jumped over And on top of one of the tables

To then go run to where the cubbies Or whatever it was To go get that And didn't know understand why no one else got the stage was so hot. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we could have been your middle school besties. Coordinating our outfits to match our mood rings. Welcome to Podcrushed. That's not what they want to hear. It's just not what they want. I think people want to hear it. I don't. I agree with Penn.

I apologize to everyone He's like, let me just do that again Give the people what they really want Take three Nava, is it true That you take a picture of your dog Oliver Who does really have beautiful natural highlights Beautiful hair

You take a picture of him To show to your stylist I take a picture of him and a woman So like I'll choose like a woman whose style I like But Oliver, I'm going to post a picture On the podcast account so you can see it Oliver is my dad's long hair dachshin who I take care of like 30% of the time I steal them and keep him and he just has the most beautiful main with like beautiful natural highlights

and so yeah I use them as a reference photo would you say that perchance they've been made even more beautiful by mave I would say truthfully that I think when we talked about this about a month ago I was sharing that one of the reasons why I wanted to get my dogs on you know better food raw food was for them to have long lives. And honestly, the other big reason is vanity. I get stopped, I get stopped frequently with people commenting on how beautiful my dogs are. And I don't want that to ever end. I know that Penn's favorite part of being a celebrity is getting stopped for photos. And my favorite part,

love, favorite thing ever. Do it more guys. If you see him, just run, run for him. But my favorite thing of being a dog mom is getting stopped for people to tell me how beautiful the dogs are. I don't want it to ever end. This happens with my, this happens with my dog too. Really? It's the big one. It's the big, the lobo, the Husky, he, he gets stopped all the time if they haven't already stopped and recognized me. And usually one be like, oh, your dog is so beautiful. Oh, yeah. And then they look at me. Because also, let's be real, people look at the dog first. Yeah, it's true. Which I effing hate. You just want all that spotlight for yourself. Just right here, guys. I'm just going to, I'm just going to rain down fury on dog owners right now.

I know, like, but the way that, you know, they look at the dog first. You have a dog, the dog's, oh, what's the dog's name? Yeah. But the people don't really like that's each other's names. In my case, they look at dogs, then they glance at me and they're like, no, no, no, dogs were better. Just right back down to the dogs. When people, when I'm walking by with, this is not about a dog, but my dog, my pet, Anaeus, my version of a dog, when people don't stop, like when people don't look at her, I'm like, how could you? Like, you are cold-hearted.

Maybe you need to get Anaeis on some may, but I know, I've heard it does wonders. Human-approved. Yeah. Human-proof. Penn, I have a serious question for you. You have told us many times that Lobo is a picky eater. It's very hard to get him on the same meal more than once a day. Has it been going with Maeve? He eats now more regularly than I can recall him eating. I think he does love raw.

It's clear that it's better for them. In fact, I'm not entirely sure, but just two nights ago, I got home from work really late. Everybody was asleep. He was on the couch. And I looked at him, and I thought, oh Dom got him got him groomed today

like his hair he looked like very freshly cleaned yeah and then I went and gave him a little nudge and a kiss and I was like oh I'm pretty sure he's not clean

so I'm not sure what it is you know who else I want to just waltz over and give a sweet little nudge and a kiss Tyler James Williams honestly saying

Tyler is an actor you know and love from shows like Abbott Elementary where he plays the first grade teacher Gregory Eddie. Everybody hates Chris, where he played a young Chris Rock. I mean, he's been an icon as a child and an adult. He's got a slew of films like Let It Shine, The Secret Life of Walter Middy, dear white people. He's also got some trophies in the case, got a Golden Globe and a BET Award. We really loved having him here today. You're going to love this too. Let's get to it.

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the best. Hold on. Let me start again because I've only been talking about Louie. Louis is my bait. Louis, you might have heard him growl just now. Louis is my little baby, and I'm committed to only giving him the best. I love that Nom Nom Nom's recipes contain wholesome nutrient rich food, meat that looks like meat, and veggies that look like veggies, because shocker they are. Louis has been going absolutely nuts for the lamb pilaf. I have to confess that he's never had anything like it and he cannot get enough.

So he's a lamb-peelaf guy. Keep mealtime exciting with nom-num, available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try-n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad, the Reddy Devine, Eva Du René, and more.

We're talking about their journeys, their creative process, and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season 2 drops July 29. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. Hello, Tyler. on, man. Dude, of course. Thank you for having. Sorry about the wait and all of that. No, no, not at all. Was it two minutes? That's, well, you know, we'll, we'll have a talk afterward. I'd try to be a bit more punctual. I'm so sorry. I'll rake myself over the colds later. There, we start in adolescence because it's such a formative time. Right. And the joke or the hook

or whatever, the reason it works if it does is that I did not finish middle school because I was, you know, working. and some of middle school drop out technically. And then Nav and Sophie were middle school teachers slash administrators. And they don't do that anymore. But, you know, so we all have this kind of thing in common. And that's, we start there. And then we kind of go anywhere. You and I have more common than I thought.

Did you also? Sixth grade. Yeah, yeah. You might be an elementary school dropout. Yeah. Oh, hey. But yeah, like six, seventh grade. and all that.

I got like my first show and that was it. I haven't seen inside of the school since. Until, well, now, until. It's only sets. You run the school. Exactly. I guess I knew that you got this at 13. Everybody hates Chris.

But yeah, so you really, so you didn't even finish your first year of middle school? Well, Tyler started acting when he was four, right? Right. I was four. So work had started picking up enough that the school was getting. annoyed. By six break. I was like, we're being up then. So I had kind of gotten pulled out into this, like, hybrid-coast homeschooling thing. And then by the time I turned 13, I was completely moved to L.A. Wow. How did you feel at that point? First, I genuinely hated going to school.

That was like, I really, it was not for me at all. So when it was time to, like, lead the brick and mortar part of it. I was like, hype. I then ended up doing this like online hybrid program thing. And yeah, I kind of, I did that all the way up through high school. Do I remember anything?

No. Because I was doing a show at the time and it makes it really easy to, your short-term memory is really strong. Yeah. Interesting. So I would essentially just cram stuff like I would lines, test, get things done, move on. I didn't grape in Spanish.

You can't speak a word of it again. The good thing is, like, I was on a show with other kids that were around the same age. So we were all kind of doing the Hydework, homeschool, studio teacher thing together. It kind of resembled what, I guess, a small classroom would be like. Yeah. What was it that you hated about school? The same thing I kind of hate about. life, and I say this in the most possible way, people.

Like, I just, I'm not, cool, cool, cool. It's not specific to anybody. I say it's all the time. That's the other thing which all specifically is great. I just, I don't know. I guess I've always kind of been like more introverted than extrovert and so big groups of people never really work for me. I fundamentally always had an issue with the idea of testing.

Yeah. I don't like to be tested in general. in life to see if I'd go or see if I have. And that always threw me a bit. I did really poorly in testing it. But then they would find that I knew all the information. I'd had it. I just looked like that.

It always felt fairly antagonistic. Interesting. That's true. Yeah. I don't know if that's anyone else's experience. Totally. Totally. It resonates.

Yeah. I feel like Nav and Sophie, you guys might be good testers. Are you? No, I'm not at all. No. I don't know. I think I'm good. No, I'm a good tester in certain things, but like math science. I was going to say I'm not a good tester, but I think I just actually don't understand anything in math and science. The test might accurately reflect my ignorance. So I might be an accurate tester. I don't know.

The reason that I asked you, Tyler, impressed, like, what was it specifically that you didn't hate about, that you hated about school? It was because I'm like, I think I also hated school, but I've never really, like, articulated that. And when you said it, Nava's response and my response were quite different. Nava was like, really? And I was like, ooh. No, honestly, the word antagonistic resonated with me because I'd never thought about that word

in relationship to tests, but I also felt pressed and antagonized. Like, why are you coming at me? Like, tests can feel so cold and hard. And they're like, do you know this? Do you know this? Do you know this? You don't know it, do you? And I think because, and Penn, you probably resonate with this,

so much of what we do, especially at that time, auditioning as frequently as you are, that's so much a part of your life it was just another area that was happening that I wasn't passionate about you know what I mean like at least with auditioning I get a chance to come forward and give you

what I love to do. There's my interpretation of this thing. There's something driving me through it. I think I just, it was a lot for me to handle that much of a proving ground over and over and over again in multiple areas in my life. I wasn't particularly passionate

about the things I was, you know, learning in school. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I wasn't passionate about the SAT. I wasn't, oh, yeah. Gosh, what nightmare. So you mentioned, you mentioned, like, being able to deal with rejection. Right. As a young actor, you're always dealing with it.

But it sounds like a love, you know, a love of a form, of an art form, a craft, got you through it. So, so let's get into that. Who were you at 12? You know, how did you see the world? How were you experiencing it? How are you feeling and thinking? Just give us like a portrait if you can. At 12, I really wanted to make people happy.

I think that was the number one thing. I wanted to do a really good job at whatever it is I was tasked to do. As a performer, I think just as a child, I was a child that I really aimed to please. I was the one that, like, I was like, oh, he's so well behaved, partially by way of parenting and otherwise, because it's, there was something that I felt a need to, to deliver. Oh, the world was so cute, but I really think about it. Like, the world was so cute. I was in New York, and New York is one of those places that's so big while also being so small. Yeah.

And it cultivates a real sense of independence when you grow up. there. It felt like really anything was possible. I also felt like I had a lot to prove. That was like a huge thing. I remember there being this overwhelming sense of like I have to prove something. I didn't know why or what, but I felt it strongly. Tyler, you always speak really fondly about your parents and I sometimes assume that like child actors just like, I'm like, oh, their parents must be terrible, which is a terrible assumption to make, but that doesn't seem to be the case for you. God bless. And I was just curious about your dynamics with your parents and how you got into this sort of world at such a young age. Whose idea was that?

And yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, my parents were definitely different in the way that they handled things. So they were already on the entertainment side. They were sayers and musicians for some. That's how they met. So when my brothers and I came out fairly creative, no one was surprised. yeah um they just didn't treat it like a career which was so interesting they treated it like you know you take your kid to suffer or you taking your kid to soccer making sure that they

like are driving at going to play professionally no they just do it because they love it so that's what we did it first and i think that was like the core difference and i think my experience than with a lot of people is the states were always really low um my father particularly is one of those people who was always made it very clear that he was down to walk away from the industry and I think waited for opportunities for it to happen so he could put his foot down

and just say it and walk off. So we always felt like the door was open. We always felt like the door was open to walk out whatever we wanted to. So, it really helped a lot of things. But I'd also say that, you know, I think what happens a lot of times

is parents and child actors themselves get a bad rap because there's this period of time when stuff starts to happen that I've seen it happen a few different times I don't think there's any way for the parent or the kid to be prepared for it it's almost guaranteed that everyone makes massive mistakes in that period of time I think a lot of people think about the what if they make it without actually considering the like what if they make it not just the upside the down as well. Right.

There's no way you can know as well. There's just no way you can know before you've... It's fraught full of unknown unknowns. You know what I mean? And I think we judge a lot of parents and child actors themselves on the missteps of the unknown unknowns. And there's no... There's no way to be able to handle that properly.

And that's the thing that they just don't see. I think I'd particularly try to give my parents as much grace as possible for those sites. Penn, is that, in your experience, right, of what we all went through in a very specific way that's unique to each of us? Do you feel like there are any common denominers that you find people who have any transition well? You're talking about the transition from auditioning and not quote-unquote making it to working consistently and then having, sort of turned the dream into a reality at whatever level it is? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Regardless of what the level is.

What happens when it goes from something you're chasing and something you're living in? That's a good question. So there's a set of people who I grew up with amongst whom I like, you know, and I didn't, I wasn't really close with any of them. I had a lot of mutual friends, but people like Hillary Duff, Shia LeBuff, why are they the only? to it's coming in mind now and I can't think of any others I don't know I don't know who else they there's a there's a you know

Nav and Sophie have heard me it's there's just a lot of people I came up alongside in LA though well I'm maybe the common denominators at some point you don't handle it well I feel like everybody lost their humility for a second at least including myself and it didn't have a lot

it didn't actually have that much to do with fame and it had a lot more to do with pace of work the nature of the work how unrelatable that seems to be to virtually everyone else who's not doing it at the time. Right. That actually, I think, has the most part. Yeah, I don't know if there is a way.

That's what I try to explain that as much about because I think sometimes I at least find my experience get put on an interesting pedestal of like, oh, well, you did it well. And I'm like, based on what you saw. Yeah, I don't know if there is a way to not have that period of time. But whenever I talk to people who seem to have, you know, done that well, I always ask that question and see if they've gotten any more clues to that answer, as I think you've all searched for it. I think what would help, which I want to hear about if you had any, I think what would help are great role models.

And if you're, you know, I think... gender probably plays some role in it. Like, I think if you're a boy, like, it's, it would be great if you had a male role model. If it's not your father, like, somebody, you know. If you're a girl, well, the way this business also objectifies women. I mean, it objectifies everybody. But it objectifies women and little girls, of course, even more to a degree we're all very familiar with. Needs no reference here.

But, like, I think you need, I mean, you need adults, you know, you need adults around you. and I think it's like, you know, your parents can't ever really be that clued in how, you know, they've not gone through it, right? Right. So when you, so when you were starting to, I mean, everybody hates Chris was the first time that you were on something where you were,

I'm assuming a lead and like, you know, it was huge. Yeah. It was huge. Especially because, I mean, the show was so connected to Chris Rock. You know, even people who might not have seen the show, where everybody knew of the show.

So for you, I'm curious, like, how did you, whether that, in the good ways and the bad? First thing that comes up for me is always the bad. Like, my initial reaction, whenever I hear that, it's not well. Everybody I had grown up with and, like, it'd come from my family, I had by that point, reached a point and level that was past their understanding of life. you know, you're immediately dealing with more money than anybody has ever fathomed. I remember this one day I realized

I worked longer hours than my dad. Wow. And then within the industry, particularly with that show and like kind of growing up around stand-up comics, it's no secret to know like stand-up comments. They're not the best role models. I wouldn't go.

That's really surprising to me. I wouldn't follow. I wouldn't follow them. I don't, I don't recommend it. So there was this uncharted territory, and I think how I interpreted it initially was I was actually really upset about that. I was really, I remember there being this, I mean, eggs that comes with that age in general. Yeah.

But there was this kind of animosity that there was no one who had laid out a path for me to follow. that I had to kind of figure it out. And as I was figuring it out, I was going to make mistakes here and there. And it just felt like the states were really high. So I think that's my initial thought of that period of time. I think also doing comedy in general that that comes up quite a bit. It feels like there was a, there was like one lane for the architect I was trying to

follow. And at the time, that was like Will Smith, right? You lead comedy, you're also romantic interests. There's like one way to really do that. It's a very safe or what can now be seen as safe. I think radical at the time. But now it would be seen as safe way to handle yourself in that way. And that just wasn't who I was.

And that was, I think that was, Difficult. I kind of raged against that for a while. I raged against the box that I think I was supposed to fit into that I never did. Until eventually, you know, you get older and you realize that that's the point of all of it. You exist to break that norm so that somebody else can see that so that they can then push the boundary even further. But this was also like, you know, everybody needs Chris came out in 2005. Yeah. It was a different world.

We were scared of a lot of things It's particularly around masculinity But I noticed that on set That even just in Hollywood in general The masculine archetypes that I had Usually came with people who were like pieces of shit He's a dick I don't think we have to be a dick

To do this I don't think that's how this has to go So those two things went hand in hand for me Um, choosing to be, and I use this word because I choose to use this word in a sense of when that, you know, everybody resonates with, but choosing to be solved because that's where I performed from. That's the only way I can access what's in here, um, was definitely not the norm at the time. Yeah.

And it went counter to how I worked. How old were you when you feel like you made that choice somewhat consciously? I was like 16 or 17. Everybody needs to just end it. And I was in this place where I knew there was one of the paths that was forged for me would have ended my career immediately, right? I could have very quickly ended up in the Urquil archetype.

And I knew I didn't want to do that. So I knew the only way out was to choose something different. So I made the choice at like 17. I didn't think I got actually like, grounded in it in a decent place until I did dear white people. And it was like 2012. So I was like 20. I wasn't even 21 yet.

It was like 20. And then it really, really solidified with Abbott, telling the truth. It wasn't until Abbott came forward and I was like, all right, I'm done. I'm done trying to do this any type of way other than mine.

And then Quintagoda gave me the room to do that and run with it. That's what I'm reading. He got ruining it. So it was like a 15 year. Yeah. I made that decision over 15 years. Yeah. Yeah.

And we'll be right back. All right. So let's just real talk, as they say, for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. how important is your health to you you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed

you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. My family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly, I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the

differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called? Liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. Comes out in the packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. I think it tastes great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health, and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed

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sign up today at IXL.com slash podcrushed. Visit Iexel.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. we do like to get these classic sort of first crush or rejection or heartbreak or love for most people who've been to by the way like middle school and high school there's a you generally have those experiences i don't know in like on lunch there's lockers involved yeah and but you know for you there was none of that so can you could you have any significant like stories or memories of of your like introduction to love and heartbreak kind of. I was one of those kids that came out immediately wanting to be monotonous. I remember having like my first crush, which like at the time felt like love. Like it was like monumental.

I was like four. So I remember clearly like four and I wanted to like take care of her. in every way possible. Like, mistakes were so high for me. That's the first one I can, I can really track. And I remember that feeling of wanting to take care of it.

How did you express that at four? I remember I got in trouble because I can't remember what we were doing. We were like color eight or something like that. And she needed something. She was like, a, whatever, a pencil or crayon and whatever it was. I got

in trouble because apparently I jumped over and on top of one of the tables to then go run to where the cubbies or whatever it was to go get that. And didn't understand why no one else got that the states were so hot.

I just really didn't understand why it was in trouble. And she said we needed it and I went to go get it. So I remember that feeling for sure. I was always a kid who looked much younger than what I was. So I remember being still in school and looking like I was in like the fourth grade, but I was in like the sixth. So I remember experiencing a good amount of rejection in that way and being feeling this sense of inadequacy as I would have crushes on people. At that point, I think everyone's trying to get away from their adolescence.

So you're definitely not looking at somebody looks younger. Yeah, yeah. So I remember feeling that like, and it felt like, you know, musically when notes create dissonance. And it just, it doesn't sit right. I remember that it just didn't sit right with my energy. But then when I started the show, it really turned up. because there was an aspect of everybody aged Chris that was this person can never win.

That's the whole crux of this show, right? The comedy dies once he starts to win. And I think at that time, I was having a really difficult time separating the work from me and me from the work. When you're that young, I really had the same, yeah. It's almost impossible. Yeah, you take everything personally.

right so i'm being brought in love interest after love interest to deny you exactly so that was my four years that was all i was all four years and i found i carried a lot of that into my adulthood where it had felt like there was a lot more rejection than there actually was because of that yeah yeah so it's like you lived through the 80s in Brooklyn, New York, getting rejected by girl after girl after girl, even though that's not what happened. That's actually not what happened because that's how it sits with you. Yeah.

So I defar that, yeah, that's set the stage for my 20s. I felt like I was like working through that in my 20s. And even now, there's this aspect of like, what I love about Abbott is I get to play that sense of longing, play that. tap into this childlike aspect of this character in mid and late 20s, but Bray be hurt in the pain and stuff from 12, 13, 14 and like mix that in there with them. But that's, I think it's part of my artistic being at this time. Nothing has shaped me more than that aspect of my life as an artist. Yeah.

Tyler, this is, I mean, this is like skipping ahead a little bit, but just because we're on the topic of love, love. I was thinking about your character and Quinta's character and they have this like, you know, classic will they won't they which I actually feel like a lot of shows don't do anymore and it's been really nice. It's like, it's always like enjoyable, juicy as I like to say. But I was

wondering in real life, do you think it's a red flag when people have that dynamic or do you think there's like something to say for a slow burn? The like 13, 14, 15 year old to me says, yes, that is a red flag run. But as an adult like, no. I don't I don't think so. If you want to know something is like true and real, it has to evolve and take several different forms first. I think we put such an emphasis on immediate acceptance. I feel this way for you. You got to feel that way back or else I'm upset and we'll never do this. It doesn't necessarily happen one way. Can you maintain that feeling that you have for me? For me.

multiple iterations of the relationship. I have a thing right now that I'm obsessed with platonic love. I'm like really like, we don't see it a lot. Yeah. We don't see particularly men and women have platonic love for each other in a way that doesn't have to be inherently romantic. Yeah. And when I think about like the purest version of that, like, yeah, that's what it is. It's regardless of where this goes.

or if there is any sense of commitment or attachment or possession, I still feel this word. So no. Is it, do I think it's inherently required? Does it feel like one of the time? Yes. Yes, it does.

I love that answer, Tyler. I feel like that's so accurate. Do you, okay, question back, though. Yeah. What are y'all's opinions on that? Because I could totally be wrong. Yeah. I don't think there's a,

I really don't think there's a right or wrong personally because I think it's really contextual I think everybody you know everybody is actually different especially when they come together now there are obviously so many like we've had a lot of experts on here I say a lot we've had a handful of great experts which makes it feel like a lot and it feels to me like there are definitely norms and kind of laws and principles of relationships so you can

definitely I feel like one of those experts could speak to this in a different way but I feel like when people come together, there's something totally unique about that potential relationship. And you just never, I feel like you can't really say anything across the board. It just matters about what actually then does happen. You know, I think it's, that's my broadest, softest, soft gloves kind of answer. But I'm curious what you guys think. Yeah, I think what you said is beautiful.

Tyler and I agree. Oh, not me. I thought maybe you were going to say Penn. No, no. Penn. No platonic love here. You're sitting on the fence and it's boring. No, I really agree with you. I think that you have to, if someone can, if you can express how you feel about a person and they can not totally reciprocate but still remain friends, but want to remain friends with you. And you can let go of your ego enough to remain friends with them. I think it shows a level of like respect for that person and like genuine love for that like, okay, even if this is not happening in the manner that I expected, I still want to be around you. I still like, there's value in spending time with you. I think if you can have that, then if it does ever become romantic, then it will probably

last the test of time. Like, because there will be times in a long term relationship where it's not romantic and so if you if you can maintain that friendship then then it says something really good about the relationship yeah I think it's not a red flag I think if if there's other things at play like if if somebody is being strung along and still expected like waiting just for like the penny to drop or waiting for you know the time when the person will finally agree then that is a little bit like you're going to be disappointed maybe you have to be totally at peace with it being just a friendship.

I really like what you said. I hadn't thought of it that way. I think for me it's been confusing if I'm being honest. And if the way my TikTok algorithm currently is, it's like this girl is clearly trying to enter this season of her life

because every video is like some relationship expert. You know, just like enter like a committed relationship. Oh, the opposite. And like all the videos that I see and this might just be the way my like for you is curated. it's like it should be like there's like two pieces of advice one is like go go slow to go fast like

don't don't try to like speed up when you have the conversations but the window is about three months that's sort of what I've heard that like within three months people do kind of know how they feel about each other and if you don't have a romantic feeling within three months you probably never will that's sort of what I've seen like curated on my page whether or not you're willing to make a commitment in three months all of that I think varies but yeah I find it confusing some of him Like, I think it is hard to be genuinely friends with someone where the feelings aren't reciprocal, but I would like to be. Like, I would like to be sincere or know that the other person is sincere if I don't have the feelings, but I think it's hard. So I don't know.

But what you said, ideally, yes, I'm like on board. In practice, like it can feel like your heart is breaking. So why don't I give my off the fence hot take then? Yeah, let's hear it. I feel like you know. I personally, now see, here's the thing. I've been in four relationships in my life, okay?

And the fourth one is marriage. Yeah. And I actually feel like my wife and I have been learning all this stuff in hindsight. Like we're learning all it because neither of us have ever can say

that we've had a whole diversity of relationships because actually we both are people who just like, you end up who you end up with based on essentially this, you know, intoxicating chemistry

that's not only physical, because it has a lot to do with how the person appears in the way that they speak and all this stuff but it's but you know that that is the thing that always ends it's the stuff that makes up it can at best last for the first two years or maybe the first six months

you know I feel like I have you know based on only personal experience like I can't imagine not knowing and seeing what happens personally

I I really admire those who find themselves in that position and they actually end up in a good... Like, I've heard of that, and I think that that is real. I actually can see now the way that I've lived my life from relationships. It's not been crazy or toxic or anything, but it's just like, it's just a one-way thing.

You know? And that's just how I've ended up. And I didn't know any of this stuff really until we got married and it's like, ah, uh-huh, uh-huh, right, right, right, right, yes, yes. How old old are you when you got married? Um, 33. Is that right?

No. That's wrong. Yeah. I was like, aren't you 30? I'm 37. No, I was forgetting how. No, that's when I had my son. That's when I had my first biological son.

So I was 30. 29? I don't, I'm not sure. It was seven years ago. Okay. So 30, 29. I was very much so that until like, now and by now i mean like a year and a half ago um and that was like right as i turned 30 i was

very much so like either we're doing this or where are you going this and like that's yeah that's really a go but i think there is something about the context of time i don't know if that's something that i would have come to before that period of time yeah if i had to do all this now i would probably operate differently tyler what switched you what What made you go from like, we're in it or we're not to like, let's be more open. Let's have space. Um, I had a relationship where I saw what happens when it has to happen right now. Yeah.

Um, and this happened for me around, like right before the pandemic. Hmm. And what did it admit would we? up locked in the house and we're not ready for that. Yeah. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, wow. And it killed it honestly. It really, it did because I was so like, all right, this is

either we, or I'm not, you know, whatever. And then I found after we got released from the prison that was home, that I still deeply cared about this person at a distance. And that's when it started activated.

It's like, okay, so that would have been here regardless. The timing would have been better had we done it differently, and it probably wouldn't have greened the cascadional amount of issues that then led to what it did. We ended up kind of like coming back around later. But that process is what did it for me. And everybody that I had kind of, updated sense when I approach it that way of

this could be great right person and we could be needing to do something here. The timing can be off. And as long as I put a limit on that timing, I then force us into a reality that may not be conducive for it ultimately working out later. I'm either going to take the L later

by rushing it or just check my ego now and let it play out But I don't think since I've ever been disappointed in just letting it play out and allowing my emotions and feelings for that person to simply exist without needing to make it safe by putting boundaries on it. But it had not been the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. Well, we started talking a little bit about Abbott Elementary.

I have been watching this latest season. And I was just, like, struck actually this morning. I was like, damn, there are so many good guest stars on this show, like every episode. Like a, and I wonder if you could just tell us about one of your favorite experiences with a guest star. Tatiana Ali was in this most recent. One, that she's somebody who had known for a long period of time. I met her once I was like 17. And I always really respected the path that she took.

She could have played her career a lot of different ways. The fact that she chose the way that she did was really respected. And also, I think what people think is if people step away for any reason or given a time, I think a lot of people assume it's because it got too difficult or it's not something that they can do. She showed up on the day and fell right into rhythm with the entire cats. And I love that. I love this like it's there. It's always.

there. Whether you choose to engage with it actively right now is up to you. That's the artist short. She showed up firing on all cylinders. I loved it. Um, another one big was Zach Fox. Zach takes me back to the time in middle school where I couldn't stop stacking a joke on a joke and that's how I get sent to the principal's all. I'm so happy we were it in school at the same time. We just like basketball cold open that we had just, done in this past episode. We turned with like everyone said it. I'm usually very mature and on set and professional.

And I turned into a 10-year-old. That's so sweet. That anybody who can get me there. I mean, we had a conversation about child acting earlier, and you've shared that you would rather work with a child actor over an adult any day. And that's obviously not the common take. So I was curious to hear more about that. And also, we don't try to get click-baiting things.

So I'm not trying to be click-baity. And if you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to answer this. But I've just been, like, reading up on the quiet on set and all of the sort of all that stuff that's come out and really been thinking about why aren't sets safe for kids. Like, what are the missing ingredients? How can there be better adult behavior towards kids? And I also wondered if you had thoughts on that since you've now been on both sides of it. Yeah, I prefer to work with kids because very rarely are kids pieces of shit. they're not allowed to be so there's like boundaries and so like that's really what it is

I generally have more issues with like just pissing adults like it's a job show up know your shit make your choices do your work your crew is carrying all types of equipment all day long we're not here to indulge your whatever's happening today they had to check their shit at the door and you check their shit at the door um and kids again that need to please typically do that they'll show up and if there is a mistake or if they do have a misstep you see it way on them in a way that i think is healthy because it enables them to perform better next go round there's a lot of times it happens with adults that like, my time I've been on set with people who just like,

don't know, Penn, you probably experience just don't know their lines. Like, they just don't, they just show it up, they had no idea what they were saying today. Um, or who are like on their phone, right up until action. And it's like that's something that you only see with an adult actor

and not with a kid because they want to do a good job. Um, and if they're struggling with something, it's usually because it's like, oh, it's really hard. And I can, I have, like, I understand that. This is really hard for me to grab. Let's, like, walk through it together.

What could make sets safer for kids, same thing. If adults could just stop being pieces of shit, it wouldn't be great. It wouldn't really be great. And, like, I've worked on all types of sets, all types of agents and all, like, that's always what it boils down to. Some adult who feels entom. or is in a position where they're allowed to be a piece of shit because I know people in like grip or camera department or also just in their personal lives pieces of shit but they're not allowed to be that when they show up the work there's this very specific thing

that we do in this industry that gives certain actors producers writers show runners the room to show up as their worst self and we excuse it as part of the creative process. And it rewards it, I think, in a lot of ways, it's sort of encouraged and rewarded. Not so explicitly, but in a way that somehow it is rewarded.

That's true. Yes. And that's definitely true. It's very simple for me. That's like we talk about it like it's this really hard thing to grapple with in some ways. In some ways, it may be a simple problem, simpler than we give it credit.

Well, that's what, you know, with Abbott, that's where I draw my line. Like, if they're kids, here, I don't care who you are. I don't care what you say. I don't know. I don't care how hard the scene is living there going through. At any point in time, any of them is uncomfortable. And it's not happening at the time. I'm walking off set.

And thankfully, Abbott built a, you know, I think there was a whole piece in the New York or New York Times that recently went over, like, how we do that. But I've walked off set one time in my entire career, and it was over the treatment of a child. Wow. And it's just because the adults were allowed to be unprepared and let their emotions flare and all that. But there's other adults on the set born allowed to do that. Yeah. Show up the same way.

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schools went is a story you need to hear. From the branch, in partnership with the 74 and Midas Touch, where the schools went is out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast and start listening today. Well, on the topic of the timeline of Abbott, actually, this is my question. I think a lot of shows will throw in references and jokes to try to tie it to a specific time, period, that end up feeling a little bit like cheesy because they're just like a few months too late, but Abbott does not feel like that. It feels like it was written last week and it's now on my screen.

and like there was this joke in an episode I was watching where Bradley Cooper came in and did a cameo and there's a joke about like he's on a critically acclaimed he's in a movie and they're like oh yeah Oppenheimer and then like it's just this whole joke where I'm like this could have been written last week I swear and I don't know how that's possible

how does that work that the writing it's got to be quick obviously but what's the timeline like of Abbott like how does it come to us so quickly and feel so fresh you're off by like three weeks but that's really it wow like especially this season so the strike ended and we knew a scene to strike ended golden and say you guys are coming right back yeah are you on set right now no no I should be they are for something

it never happens but we are shooting currently um got it so once the strike was lifted we were back that next week um um So we've had this breakneck schedule where we're only, I think, like episode, we'll just aired, like eight, like seven or eight just aired. And we're, how many episodes do you do two? We usually do 22. You're like one of the last relevant network shows. I guess that's what I'm realizing is that most shows now will shoot the whole season, sit on it. And then it will come out episode by episode or come out all at once.

out the case with Abbott. I see. No, I think you guys just got seven. Yeah, I think so. And we're currently shooting 12. We're in the middle of 12. Wow. We're not far ahead, usually.

And I think that's one of the things that's nice about network TV is that we can do that. I can give you a joke that we can realistically look at like Bradley came in. It feels like last month. Like, I think it was like last month. He was just like just ended up now. Like it would. It's that tight. But it keeps our writers room on their toes.

I think a lot of people look down on network TV. But when they really think about it, it's really hard. No, it is. No, it is. Very hard. It is. But actually, even if you, there are things about network television that obviously people are frustrated with like the, I don't know,

the standards and practices, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. And rightfully so. But, I mean, the amazing thing about Abbott is that it stands. in a class not entirely of its own because there are others i mean the office was there but that was uh before streaming still so like i can't think of the others that are but there's now just so few network shows that feel truly relevant like you know really good i mean is it i would imagine for you that there's some uh because it sounds like you've carried some frustrations with

that you could even just attribute to being so young as you were saying it's like you can't separate yourself from the project from the role from things that are happening to the characters so you know whatever it's not even a statement about the projects before but it feels to me like you must be having some kind of healing or just some kind of real evolution like being on something that you can

that you can feel so unabashedly proud of is that accurate yeah that is especially on network I came from network that's right yeah yeah you're like coming home coming home and also like I didn't like particularly the network

comedy we know that like within the industry coverage just doesn't get respected the same way that things are dramatically and I think at the bottom of that respect bow with the network comedy and I you know almost like they enjoyed me and I took that personally

I took it personally because like it can be done very well And there are shows that are doing it well, but I think we came into it wanting to turn down on its head, wanting to be one of the funniest shows on TV with those guidelines, with only having 21 minutes and 40 seconds to do it because we need those commercial breaks at a 22 episode clip where we got to, you know, we can't just, my brother broke it down one day. And it was like, it really changed where I looked at it. Even if you have just a joke for page over the course of 30 pages, if you have to do that at 22 episodes for like six to seven years, that's over like 29,000 jokes. Wow. That have to land. Yeah.

Like land. I love that. I love how difficult that is to do. And it's nice to be able. that math is difficult I'm just like yeah 29,000 that's definitely correct

whatever it's some kind of stupid yeah yeah but that's like I don't know that's what I'm most proud I'm most proud of the fact that it is that we are still here

and that I can I remember when I did it the first time I remember especially with like all the award stuff which doesn't matter but like it is a good calibrators to like how the industry

views the health of the industry I like the said. No, that's true. I would say that awards are a little bit like that relationship advice we were giving earlier contextual. Sometimes they feel superfluous and kind of like irrelevant. There are times where it's helpful to

everybody to be like let's appreciate that this particular show is getting what it does deserve because it actually means there's levels to it of course there's so many levels to particularly Abbott

you know it's like it's like thank God that show is getting its flowers like thank God you guys are are feeling the way you feel about it you know like and everybody else can say it too like I actually had not you know look I don't watch a lot of TV I was watching it

mostly for the first time to to prep for this episode and I was just like man I don't know why I hadn't watched it yet apart from the whole just TV you know just I don't It's like so few things I do watch. I was just so, like, I can't say I was pleasantly surprised. I wasn't surprised, but I was like relieved.

I was like, oh, it is good. Oh, it is as good as everybody says. Like, oh, yes. Well, it's such a joy. Yeah. I love that. I love that's how people could feel about it. Because I do think that as an art form and are like a medium specifically,

network harmony means to. and think for the health of like the country almost you know what I mean like I think network is very specific because we have to get everybody we can't have a niche we can't exist they're just how that works so if we can find stuff that everyone can laugh about we're really good at finding stuff that everyone's talking about we got that we're so fucking good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But we're

finding things and everybody can laugh about. And when you have people from different walks of light all saying we found the same thing fun of them. They have more in common than they thought.

And that's why I'm most proud of that. I think that's the thing. It's not necessarily anything like how well it does or how how many like awards should get.

It's the fact that we got more people laughing together. than they thought they would have. Yeah, that's really sweet. You know, Tyler, there's this study by the Norman Lear Center. I don't know the official name of that organization, but it was sort of looking at how do you, what is the most impactful way to change someone's perspective

and to get people like to take action? So for instance, if you're trying to change people's, the study that they did was if you're trying to change people's perspective on immigrants, and in this case it was like to be more pro-immigrant, what was the best way to, do it and what actually led to people voting that as like you know voting for for changes in that at the municipal level anyway long story short there was like shows that dealt with it really head on like through dramas were effective to a certain extent but comedies were the most effective

and it was like where they would like slow boy like it was like a very slow integration of the theme and particularly through a character who was an immigrant and it's not revealed that they're an immigrant until you know further into the seasons and then people are like really bought in And I was thinking how Abbott, it doesn't seem like it's like on the head at all, but it is giving us a message about like funding public schools and like resources for teachers. And it's doing it in such a subtle way that is probably more impactful than things that are hitting it head on. And I think that that's also some of the like the beauty and the value of a show like Abbott is to shed a light on it. But it never feels like it's like beating us over the head with that message.

But it's always there, which is incredible. It doesn't work. It's not, it's just not as effective. When we did have it, we were coming out of the pandemic. So we had shot it like through 2021. But at that time, there was a lot of conversations about what teachers should and should be getting. And like to be completely rude, a lot of disrespect was being falling around.

Yeah. Then this show pops up and it humanizes them in a way. And it has you laughing not at them, but with them. and then next you know you feel something because that's the it disarves people you can make it so we do it

as a male who's heterosexual but then relationships with women and that's the first thing we do we'll make you laugh if I can make you laugh I can bring a guard down then we can actually get somewhere

I think that works universally for all people if you can make them laugh first you can bring them down then you can talk to them give them what they need to get or what they may not be seen But as long as you're like, this sucks and you should care about it.

I don't know if that really. Yeah, yeah. It's true. Yeah. I'm going to try that next time. I think maybe that's probably not getting anywhere. You haven't been doing them? Does it make them laugh?

It's effective. I have to tell you, Tyler, that, you know, there's just like different areas in your life. Right now I'm a mom. I have a baby, a recent baby, a newborn. And I'm in a different era of my life. No, but when I was like single, a student in college, living in New York City with some of my best friends, we had like a, we would have a watch party for The Walking Dead every week. Oh, no one. A bunch of friends come over and we watch The Walking Dead.

So that, like, to me, the Walking Dead is linked so nicely with that really sweet, special time in my life. That one time where you were just really happy. Yeah, yeah, I think about it fondly. But to this day, it's one of the, like, the ones that hit me the most at, like, at the heart when I think about it. I don't think about, when I think about shows, I very rarely watch episodes of things because, like, that's not for me. Um, I remember how I feel. Mm-hmm. That was a good group.

Yeah. Yeah. That was a really good group. And it felt there was one day we were shooting scene against a barn door. And it's like raining and it's in, like, season five, I know. Um, and we're all on this barn door. I'm supposed to be like keeping walkers back. And the crew went to the other side of the door to push on it.

So we actually had something to fight against. And you had all, I think it's 12 us at the time. On this door, really fighting for our last pushing. I think he even cut himself and was like leading. Wow. And that's what I like, that's what that show feels like. It feels like camaraderie. It feels like, look into your left and to your right and seeing a bunch of people who would just try in their hardest.

That's that. I'll always love that shell we have a final question Tyler Okay Depend, do you want to ask it or? No, I was actually just going to say I don't know why I'm always the one of them I've asked it a few times I was like we always throw it to Penn

And he has to find a way to say it Like that feels authentic again Yeah We have a final question That we ask every guest Which is that if you could take a moment Go back to 12 year old Tyler And say anything or do anything

what would you say or do? I tell him you'll be fine. And that's it. He was so concerned about it not being okay. Yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah, that's really, maybe I'll like show up to him with like my shirt off and show them like scars and shit like. That's cool.

I like that. You'll be fine. You're right. The feeling you have that it's not going to get weird is correct. Yeah, that understanding when it's saying a lot of the context of time, you know, you can't get there without that. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, that's it. And then disappear.

Anything else, which is you get too in his head about all the other shit. So you'll be fine. And then leave. You popped your head back and say, the world is really cute right now. Yeah. Enjoy the cuteness. Yeah. Because it won't be like this.

It won't be like this ever again. I appreciate your name. Thank you so much, Tyler. Thank you, Tyler. It's great to meet you. Thank you for reaching out. I've been like, you know, I think outside of even this, I've been wanting to have a conversation. Good.

At some point. So I really appreciate this. You can watch Tyler James Williams on Abbott Elementary on ABC or. or streaming on Hulu, and you can follow him online at Will Tyler James. We are so excited that you can now listen to Podcrush, ad free on Amazon Music. In fact, you can listen to any episode of Podcrushed ad free right now on Amazon Music with an Amazon Prime membership. The other thing that's really successful, sweet about right now is that my microphone

which necessarily has to be very close to my face smells like almond butter because my little three and a half year old took it the other day he picked up the mic and he said I'm going to work that's what I do and then he's like don't cry

and and I got it later and I was and I was like what does that smell? It like It smells kind of good, but like it's a microphone. What's going on? And then I realized there's a, there's like an almond butter stain from where I grabbed it. Oh my God, that's so cute.

Yeah. Because he eats a lot of almond butter, too. He eats so much. That's really cute.