Podcrushed - We’re Crushing On: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Today we're handing our feed over to one of our favorite shows: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Each week, you’ll hear Julia have insightful, funny, and important conversations with these ladies who have so much to teach us about living unapologetically and focusing on the stuff that really matters. This season is yet again chock-full of marvelous guests, and, as always, every episode ends with a conversation between Julia and her 90-year-old mom Judy.  On the premiere episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down with the one and only Jane Fonda. With a career spanning over six decades, Jane – now 85 years old – hits all the highlights: staying fit at any age, fantasizing about funerals, getting heckled on set by Katharine Hepburn…and something about a fake thumb. To hear more of Wiser Than Me, head to: https://lemonada.lnk.to/wiserthanmefd  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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with NomNum available at your local pet smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed. Spelled try nom.com slash podcrushed. Why do we do what we do? What makes life meaningful. My name is Elise Lunan, and I'm the author of Honor Best Behavior and the host of of the podcast, Pulling the Thread. On Pulling the Thread, I explore life's big questions with thought leaders who help us better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. I hope these conversations bring you moments of resonance, hope, and growth. Listen to Pulling the Thread from Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so I am looking at my high school yearbook, and at my senior page in particular,

for those of you listening, I don't recommend doing this. If you could see this photo of me, it is just so unattractive. It's so unfortunate. It really is. I'm so somber. I look depressed while at the same time pretentious. So it's an interesting mashup of different horrible teenage characteristics. By the way, I'm also wearing a Searsucker type of jacket.

And I remember thinking, God, this is the chicest jacket. And guess what? Newsflash. It ain't. Anyway, underneath, you know, everybody back then, I don't know if people still do this, but you put a quote or something that's supposed to sort of represent who you are or whatever. And so the quote I have underneath my picture is from the movie Julia, which was a 1977 film that starred Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave. And in the film, Jane plays Lillian Hellman.

It's an incredible film. I loved it then. I love it now. And I wanted to look at this quote because I recently saw this documentary about Jane Fonda on HBO called Jane Fonda in 5X. And I was thinking the whole time that I was watching this doc, My God, this woman, Jane Fonda, she has done a lot of shit in her life. I mean, it was really riveting to me. And as I watched her, I was really struck by the fact that we just don't hear enough about

the lives of older women. Do you know what I mean? When women get older, they become less visible, less heard, less seen in a way that really it just doesn't happen with men. We are ignoring the wisdom of like more than half the population. It is just stunning to me that women, old women, and by the way, not even so old women, are so easily dismissed and made invisible by our culture. You know, fuck that bullshit.

I want to hear from older women. And that's how the beginning of the idea for this podcast was born. I'm going to talk to old ladies. I want to know how they do it, how they did it. How do they navigate aging and life? Give us some tips from the front lines. And that's what we're going to do on Wiser Than Me. We're going to talk to women who are exactly that, Wiser Than Me. And guess what? Today, we're going to be talking with Jane Fonda. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus. This is Wiser Than Me, a show where each week I get schooled by women who are

are wiser than me. When I tell anybody that I'm doing this podcast thing where I get to talk to women who have lived extraordinary lives and have lived long enough to become truly wise, the first thing people always ask me is, Are you going to talk to Jane Fonda? Really? Yeah. I'm going to talk to you. Wait, Jane, I'm introducing you. Okay.

I'm going to talk to Jane Fonda. I'm talking to Jane Fonda. Honestly, there's nobody like her. She's an actual American icon who has lived a life of passion, artistry, reinvention, controversy, commitment, and advocacy. She was at the absolute forefront of all of these huge cultural movements. the anti-war movement, the environmental movement, women producing their own work in Hollywood movement, the whole exercise aerobics thing, that was Jane Fonda, and now the climate crisis and a whole new

way to think about and talk about aging. Oh my God. And just mentioning the name Jane Fonda can still really piss certain people off. How cool is that? She's the model of the kind of person we all need to listen to, I just can't wait to talk to Jane Fonda, who is, oh, so definitely wiser than me. Hi, you, Jane Fonda. Hi, it's so, it's an honor to talk to you. It's an honor for me to talk to you. I just, oh, my God. You know what I love?

I'm watching you on Veep, and my grandkids are watching you on Early Seinfeld. And, you know, you cross generations. And when I told them, I'm sorry, but I've got to go upstairs. I'm doing a podcast with you. they freaked out. They were so excited. Isn't that great? Yes, it's fabulous. I'm so pleased. Yeah, I think young people are watching Seinfeld right now, which is completely bizarre. So are you comfortable if I say you're 85? 85. I'm 85. Yeah. Hey, how old do you feel? I feel 85 in my body. And mentally, I feel much, much younger. But going back to when I was much younger wasn't so happy.

So I don't really want to say that mentally I'm younger. I'm not. It's just that in spiritually and mentally and psychologically, I'm way younger than 85. But, you know, one of the things that I've learned is I've gotten into serious old age is when you're inside it, as opposed to looking at it from the outside, it's not nearly as scary. Oh, wow, that's incredible. That's one thing. And the other thing is that the number, the chronology of age is not what's. It's important. It's health. For example, my dad died at 76. I'm on my way to 86 now, and I'm much, much, much, much younger than he was. He was so old at 76 because he was sick. He had a heart disease. I'm fine. I'm healthy. I've had cancer, but it's in remission. And, you know, if you're healthy, 85 can be quite young.

Yeah. Especially if you stayed fit, you know, and I move a lot. I just finished a workout. What kind of workout do you do, by the way? Slow. That's, you'll find out. That's the operative word. I do kind of the same moves, but slowly and with less weight. I see. Yeah. I wanted to show you something because I think you're going to get a kick out of this. Well, you might. I say that. But you see that picture? It's you. It's me, and it's my senior page. And the reason I'm showing you this is because on everybody's senior page, you put a quote. And guess what my quote was? Oh, gosh, what? It was words that you spoke

in the exquisite movie Julia that you spoke as Lillian Hellman. And I put it on my senior page, and now here I am talking to you. What did it say? Well, here, we're going to pull it up right now, and then I was hoping that you might read it. Yes. Old paint on canvas as it ages sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens, it's possible in some pictures to see the original lines. That is called pentimento because the painter repented, changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception replaced by a later

choice is a way of seeing and then seeing again. The paint has aged now. And I wanted to see what was there for me once and what is there for me now. How about that? Well, that's quite a mouthful for your senior book. Wow. For an 18 year old? I have to say. I'm impressed. Yes. And maybe a little bit horrified because it's somewhat pretentious for an 18 year old to put that on her senior page. Yes. Are you leaving? I see you. No.

No. No, I'm not leaving. I'm looking for a quote that I like better. Oh, good. But shit, I wish I'd known you back then because then I would have used the quote you liked better on my page. All right.

Here it is. This is T.S. Eliot, Little Gidding from four quartets. We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our explorers. will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. That's a much better quote for my senior page, Jane. I should have used it. God damn it. What a missed opportunity. That's a fabulous quote. And it's a quote that I use at the beginning

of Act 3 in my memoir. Because what I discovered as I prepared for my third act was you spend your life exploring as I have. And what you realize is you go back to your girlhood and you become all the things that she was supposed to be, that you never knew at the time was really who she was because you were trying to be what other people thought she should be. That to me was why I quoted that. Right. That's been your journey. Yeah. Can you define what the third act is? Yeah, well, I was married to Ted Turner. I was on a ranch in New Mexico, and I realized that I'm about to be 59. And holy shit, in a year, I'm going to be 60. And for some reason, for me, figuring I'm probably not going to live past 90, next year is the beginning of my last act. First 30 years, second 30 years, last 30 years. And, you know, you're an actor. You know how important third acts are. They can make sense out of the first two, right? They're very important. It's kind of the legacy that you're going to leave behind.

And so I thought, I have no idea what I want to do with my third act. And then it hit me. I know what I don't want to have happened. I know that I don't want to die with regrets when it's too late to do anything about it. So one thing that I want to do in my third act is make sure that when I do die, I've cleaned up everything. I mean, you always have some regrets, but it's not going to like make me. feel bad when I die. And then the other thing is, you can't really know how to go forward if you don't know where you've been. So I spent the year between 59 and 60 researching myself

very objectively, like it wasn't really me, it was somebody else. And what I discovered was that I'm really brave. I didn't know that before. I've been brave all my life. And that made me feel, it gave me a lot of confidence. I was a much more confident person at the end than I was when I started this research. So anybody that's approaching 60, think about doing what I discovered later. It's a thing. It's called a life review. Psychologist, psychiatrist, gerontologist encourage older people to do this, especially older people who are depressed. Because one of the things that happens is that you discover, you know, a lot of who we are and how we behave and everything is because of how we were parented or not parented, right? Right, right. And we always, because that's what kids do,

we always assume that whatever happened, it was our fault. Right. And what I discovered and what people do discover when they do a life review was, guess what? It had nothing to do with you. Yeah. My father, whom you met. Yeah. A force, by the way. Yeah, a charismatic guy. But also a narcissist, which I think we have that incommonant, our fathers. Yes. But a wonderful man in a lot of ways. Anyway, it was his birthday or something, and he already passed. And my mom wrote me a note saying, you know, oh, because they were divorced and had been my entire life.

And she wrote me this note saying, I know this is, you know, a day for you that you mark and so on. And I wish that there were ways that we could talk about what happened, you know, i.e. in our family. And I wrote it back and I said, what's keeping us from it? And so when I was like 60, she and I went into therapy together. Wow. Yeah. That is so great. It was so great. It was such a gift. What did that do for you? It was a release as a lot of things fell into place. Yeah. There was an understanding. I understood where she was coming from. She came from a fraught family situation. And she understood what I was living through in my childhood with her and my father and my stepfather and my stepmother and so on. And it was just, it was like something opened up. I mean, I guess that falls under

life review to a certain extent. It certainly falls under the regret heading, right? Yeah. So when you're talking about regrets, what are the regrets that you've worked through yourself? I mean, it sounds like you've forgiven yourself, which is great. There's a few things that I haven't forgiven myself for and that I can't really work I was not a very good parent what can I say and I talk to my kids about it or I try to yeah and I and I I try to understand why I did what I did and I try to show up for them now in ways that I didn't back then so that's the main way that I deal with regret are you a good grandparent uh I am yeah yeah I am I like being a grandparent but I can always walk away.

Yeah, I know. That's sort of the perfect relationship in that sense. So would you say from your third act vantage point, what advice would you give to someone who's in their second act or in their first act, for that matter? Okay, let's start with the first act. Yeah, let's talk about that. It's really, really hard to be young. Yeah. People always think it's hard to be old.

No, it's hard to be young. Oh, amen. I couldn't agree with you more. It is so hard. And I personally think that it's important to let young people know. It's not you, honey. It's just really hard. And middle age is where you try to become an operative person.

And it's very charged. When you get older, it's like, oh, I've been there, done that. Didn't kill me. Okay. Okay. listeners, this is Julia, and I'm cutting in here because the wildest thing happened right here when we were taping this, and I have to explain it to you. So Jane and I are having this lovely conversation, blah, blah, blah, right? Well, you might remember a while back in California,

we had what they called a bomb cyclone, which means a big-ass storm with an atmospheric river, and that storm hit right at this moment. And the power at my house where I was on the Zoom call with Jane went out. Listen to this. Oh, no. My God, do we lose power? Yep. Oh, fuck.

It's such a bummer. Okay, I don't have service, and I don't have Wi-Fi. Wait a minute. Oh, wait, it's connecting. It's trying to connect. Why aren't my lights coming back on? God damn it. I can't call anyone.

Fuck. So the power was out, and I couldn't communicate with anyone, and as you can hear, I was freaking out. And I didn't know, though, that I was being recorded, by the way, because the tape recorder has a battery backup, very clever. But what I also didn't know was that the power was still on for Jane. So she's still talking to no one because my power was gone. You know, you have a perspective. And you discover, you know, you, you know, people are thinking and saying you're over the hill, but then you realize, oh my God, but there's whole new vistas over the hill, other hills, other views. You just keep going and growing. Yeah, meanwhile, back at my

house, this is happening. That's my alarm going off. Yeah, okay, so to recap, I've got no power, I've got no Wi-Fi, got no cell service, everything had gone completely to shit. Oh, but my alarm seems to be working just fine, even though nobody's breaking in. And my very first podcast is a complete disaster, except at Jane's house where everything is great, with Jane talking to nobody. Do you know what I mean? As you get older, you realize the importance of being intentional. Really, that's why doing a life review is important, understanding what things have meant

in your life. You know, that's how you become wise. And so here's where Jane realizes what's up. I think I've lost her. Yeah, we have one second. So sorry. Is it my fault? No, no, it's not at all your fault.

You're incredible company. Hi, I'm Rachel. Hi, Rachel. That's our producer, Rachel, who swooped in, and Jane was just so cool. It's not anything I said. Not at all. This is incredible. She didn't hang up on me.

She did not. She did not. Not at all. Your outfit is incredible. You look great in the eyes. the color. Thanks. This is a Lulu Lemon top. Lulu Lemon is great. Yeah, so Jane Fonda is completely smooth and chatting about Lulu Lemon while I'm freaking out. And when we realized the power was absolutely not coming back on anytime soon, Jane very generously agreed to record

the rest of the interview another day, which we did, and you'll hear that after the break. All right. So let's just, let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? You know, on like a one to ten? And I don't mean the, in the sense of vanity, I mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well, right? You want to be less stressed. You don't want it as sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a a household I have I have two children and two more on the way a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down I want to know that I'm that I'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but I need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly I turned to symbiotica these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and I'm telling

you even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with the three that I use I use the what is it called the liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that I do it I think it tastes great I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning, really good for gut health, and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes use it at night. All three of these

things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrush for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb.

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Get IXL now. And Podcrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up today at IXL.com slash podcrushed. Visit IXL.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Hi, Jane. Oh, hi. Hi. Hi. Hey, I got power back. Thank God.

I was worried that you were going to starve to death and freeze. Isn't that amazing what happened? is that the most amazing thing? It was so bizarre. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to come back and continue our conversation. So can we talk about body and self-image and, I mean, you're this incredible aerobics pioneer. I don't have to tell you this. You know this. And so much of your life has been about fitness. Talk about your body now, if you don't mind, and what has surprised you about your aging body. I'm curious to know because as, I mean, I'm not a young person anymore and I'm surprised by what the hell's happening to my body. For real. It's really like,

you're kidding. Yeah. And I'm wondering what your experience is. Well, I'll tell you one thing. I am really grateful that I spent not all my life, but a good chunk of my life getting thrown. Right. Because I have muscles, even at 85. I'm strong. And yet even so, getting in and out of those really high up cars. Yes. Picking up my 3.5-year-old grandson is hard. And yet still, you know, I'm surprised at how hard things get even when you are strong. But I have made peace with my body. It has gotten me a long ways. It's stood up for me. So I appreciate my body. I don't criticize it. on it anymore and I it's such a blessing but I live alone see Julia I don't have to show it to anybody yeah I'm vain enough so that it would be hard for me to get naked in front of not if I'd lived with somebody 50 years which I wish it had been my fate but you know I wouldn't be able to get undressed in front of a new lover really no I've got too many nicks and you know scars and

holes and all kinds of things that I mean I've got two fake sip and a fake knee and a fake shoulder and even a fake thumb fake thumb how do you get a fake thumb what are you talking about they removed I couldn't even hold a pencil they were they removed a bone in it and replaced it with a cadaver's cartilage now it works fine look at that yeah you've had plastic surgery correct yeah I'm sorry to say yes are you really sorry to say yeah I'm sorry that I that I did plastic surgery I am. I wish that I had been able to grow old at peace with my face, but I wasn't able to. And I don't feel good about it. It's not real. But I can't do anything about it now. Well, I think you look marvelous. Thank you. You're welcome. I was at a dinner once with Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft. This is

before she passed over. Yeah. Did you ever get to know them or meet them? You must have. Well, I mean, I made a movie with her called Agnes of God. And I knew her because of the studio and at least Rosberg. Yeah. It was sort of at the towards the end of her life, but I didn't know she was sick. And I said to her, Anne, you're such a magnificent actress, which of course she was. And I said, we don't get to see you anymore. Why are you not out there? You're so wonderful. And she said to me, I can't look at this, she said. And she was referring to her face. And I thought, first of all, the most exquisite woman practically ever, in my view. Absolutely gorgeous. And the fact that she was saying that, I think aging is hard for a woman in ways it is not for a man. And it was,

right? I mean, Greta Garbo retires at an early age, among many, many other great beauties for the same reason that Annie's talking about, you know. And yet the guys go and, you know, their jowls are hanging and there's all kinds of, and nobody cares. Nobody cares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been hard for me to watch myself age on screen, that's for sure. I haven't even noticed it. Oh, thank you very much. So now you're single. Do you think you have to be single to be your own authentic self? It totally depends on your early childhood. I mean, I unfortunately don't think that I can totally be myself in a romantic relationship. with a man. I'm not willing to try again. The last time I tried was about eight years ago. And I just can't do it. I don't have it in me to really be myself with a man. And then when you were trying to do it

eight years ago, what happened that made you realize, uh, I can't do this again? I don't know. Since my very beginning of my life, I think I was conditioned to not be who I am in order to make a man love me. And I just don't want to do that anymore. I don't have time. Do you miss having sex with a man? Yes. But I tell you, after the season of Grace and Frankie where Frankie and I created a vibrator for older

people, everybody in the world sent me vibrators. I got a drawer full, so it's great. What's your favorite vibrator? Do you have a fave? The rabbit. The famous rabbit. The famous rabbit. Right.

Okay. When did you know that it was like, time to call it quits? When did you come to that conclusion? Time to call it quits with a man. I usually know that the relationship should end when I begin fantasizing about their funerals. I'm not kidding. I plan their funerals. And then I realize, what am I doing? You planned the funeral. Are you speaking at the funeral? Yeah. I'm the main speaker. No, for some reason, when my relationships end, I always think of death. And it is kind of like dying to have an important relationship end. I remember when I was working with the lawyers on my divorce with Tom Hayden, I put into the document that he's not allowed to speak at my funeral.

See, in that case, I thought I was the one that was dying, and I didn't want him speaking at my funeral. Wow. Do you have anybody you want speaking at your funeral? now in today? I'm making a list. I'm making a list. Yeah. Not only that, but the music that I want played. I'm going to be buried in a shroud. I've already, I know where in the same wildflower, wild grass-filled, no headstones field that Tom Hayden is buried in because I don't want the children to have to go to two different places to talk to us and think about us. So it's all

arranged. I'm going to be wrapped in a sheet and put in a hole. And who's speaking? at your funeral, ideally. I'm not going to tell you. This could be a whole... I'm just so fascinated that you have the plan. I just love it. I know. Yeah, no, it's good.

So I get the sense you're not afraid of dying. No, not at all. I kind of look forward to it. It's like a new adventure. Yeah. You know it's a new adventure. I have a friend, actually, who just lost her mother, and her mother was so looking forward to leaving this earth because she'd been in a lot of pain

actually. And just about 20 minutes before she died, she said how excited she was to go. And then she says, oh, my God, I haven't put my lipstick on. Oh, that's like my aunt. Yes. And she put her lipstick on. Yeah. And then she died about 20 minutes later. Oh, I love that. I love that. I do too. My father's sister, one of them, when she was dying, she also made sure to have the right lipstick on and the right nightgown because of who she was going to see on the other side. See, I'm not so sure about seeing anybody on the other side, and I don't care about the lipstick, but I want to be able to have things to say to the people that are with me. I hope that there'll be people with me who care for me and that I won't just clam up. My dad just clamped up. I couldn't get him to say anything.

Really? Not one word. No. Assuming you get to see him again, you can open up the conversation. I'd like to. So in the documentary, you said, I wanted to be a good girl. A good girl is not an ambitious person. So how did you find your ambition?

I don't know. I've never felt very ambitious, particularly. Really? For a long time, I just kind of went from one thing to another because somebody wanted me. I couldn't believe it. The idea of saying no, if somebody offered me a job, seemed impossible. I was just so grateful that somebody wanted to hire me. Then when I started to do my own stuff, starting with coming home, and in a way with Clute, even though I didn't produce Clute, I started to care more than about what I was doing.

Right. I didn't look at parts in relation to what's this going to do for my career ever. Well, I mean, as somebody on the outside looking at your career, I would say that this is a woman who is ambitious. And maybe the word is wrong. I also think that if you call a woman ambitious, that can sometimes feel negative as opposed to when you call a man ambitious. Yeah. I mean, if you say, oh, that man is very ambitious. So in your. your mind, you think, he's powerful, he's successful. That woman's ambitious, you think, hmm, stay out of her way. Probably a bitch. Yeah, exactly.

And that's why when I was trying out for the lead role that Natalie Wood ended up having in splendor in the grass, Ilya Kazan asked me, are you ambitious? And I said, no. In the minute the word came out of my mouth, I knew that was a mistake. I could see it on his face. Oh, he didn't want that answer. No. But it's also not a very fair question to ask, and that, I mean, you know, anyway.

Who says that any of them are fair? Correct. Patty Chayevsky once said to me, what have you ever done besides being Henry Fondis' daughter? I mean, those guys, they were, you know, they were never compassionate or anything. Who was a good mentor for you, who gave you healthy advice or steered you in a way that was good for you? I'll tell you what. I, you know, I was brought up to never ask for advice or help, and I erroneously thought, that that was the way you were supposed to be

if you were a grown-up until I was about 60. And so, no, I never asked for advice. I mean, that seemed to me to be a weakness. But Catherine Hepburn, without my ever asking her, gave me a lot of really good advice when we were making on Golden Pond. Like? Oh, like.

I am terrified of going over backwards, whether it's a backward somersault or a backward dive. So doing the backflip was really, really challenging for me. plus I hate cold water and dark water. Cold dark water in a backflip is my biggest nightmare, and I had to do it because Catherine Hepburn challenged me. And so when I was practicing, practicing, practicing, and covered with bruises, I finally did it.

And as I crawled out of the water, she had been hiding in the bushes, and she came out, she came over to me. I was shocked. And she said, Jane, you've taught me to respect you. you never want to get soggy. You always have to stand up to your fears. Never get soggy.

That was a really good piece of advice. Stand up to your fears. And I thought that was pretty good. And she wasn't a very nice person and she didn't really like me, but she was there. Wait a minute. What do you mean she didn't like you? Why didn't she like you? She told Dominic Dunn once, Jane Fonda has no soul.

Well, she told me the first time I met her, she said, I don't like you. Anyway, there's all kinds of reasons, but she was jealous. Talk about competitive and ambitious. Oh, my God. I had to, you know, I realized early on that I had to be subservient. And once I started being subservient, then she was nice to me. Did she know that you did a great impression of her? Because that's a great impression.

No. No, she didn't. You know, when after the day after the Oscars, we were all three, me, my dad, and her were nominated. Yeah. And I'd won two already. She'd won three. So if I won and she didn't, we'd be tied. But if I didn't win and she did, then she'd have four and I'd only have two.

Right. Neither she nor my dad went to the Oscars. They were both ill. And I called her to congratulate her and she said, you'll never catch me now. No. Seriously. And how old was she? How old was she when she said that, Jane? A little younger than I am now. Yeah. Wow. I know. It took me a minute to even realize what she was talking about. What she was saying. Yeah, exactly. But then I got it, you know, talk about competitive. Wow. Yeah. Did she have a sense of humor? Was she, like when she said that, was she trying to be cute and clever?

No. No. It was just her, what she was really, that was her really, what she was thinking. And she just couldn't keep it in. Oh, she was really competitive. Yeah. I have to say, I don't like women like that. It bums me out. It makes me feel, because there's a lack of generosity there that, for me, it's Steinmey's creativity.

You know what I mean? I mean, there's nothing I love more than working with generous actors and actresses. I mean, I get the sense that Lily Tomlin is incredibly generous. Incredibly. She's got a huge heart, yes. Huge heart, yeah. Female friendships are a huge part of your life now. Yes. It sounds like they're kind of your life's blood in a way. Is it in this third act of your life that you really realized the value of female friendships,

or did you sort of always know that? I never knew it. Oh. Yes, it was only when I was older. No, I grew from the very beginning of. my life. As far as I was concerned, if I'm going to make it through life, I'm going to hitch my wagon to my father's star or to some other man's star. I've got to be with an alpha male. I didn't know that word at the time, but, you know, a strong man, interesting man who can take

me into worlds that I'm not familiar with. And I had no women friends. It wasn't until I gave birth to a daughter that I started very tentatively having women friends. And then when I became an activist, it was the women that I met here in this country, the women activists that were the most responsible for my new consciousness and transformation. It was being with them was like looking at the world, looking through a keyhole at the world that we're trying to create. They behaved like what we should all behave like with kindness and generosity and humanity and oh my gosh i thought isn't that interesting men have never treated me this way before these women and there's you know three or four that specifically that when they looked at me i know they were looking at me not a

the celebrity and i felt seen and they asked me how i felt and what i thought about things men never did that. More with Jane Fonda after the break. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big, without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall.

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Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrush spelled try n-o-m.com slash podcrushed. August 2025 marks 20 years since Hurricane Katrina changed New Orleans forever. There have been many accounts of the storm's devastation and what it took to rebuild, but behind those headlines is another story, one that impacted the lives of thousands of children. Where the schools went is a new five-part podcast series. about what happened to the city's schools after the Levy's broke and how it led to the most radical education experiment in American history. Hosted by Ravi Gupta, a former school principal,

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branch, in partnership with the 74 and Midas Touch, where the schools went is out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast and start listening today. Do you think in terms of your activism and being an actor, do you consider yourself an activist first and an actress second, or are they on par with each other? How do you feel about that? They're on par with each other because, you know, when it's a good script and a good character, I love it so much. Me too. And it connects to my activism because it gives me a platform. I mean, listen, I have been an activist at a time when I had no hits TV series or movies or anything. And how I was treated then, as opposed to how I was treated with Grace and Frankie at my back, totally different.

Describe that difference? Well, police roughed me up. You know, I was called names, hair pulled out of my head in chunks, all kinds of things like that. Now that I had a successful TV series, that didn't happen. also don't you think being older too is helpful they're not going to pull hair out of your head well it depends on where i go i'm going to be spending a lot of time in the gulf region coming up so i'm going to see we'll see what happens what are you going to do in the gulf region well the Biden administration has issued more than two dozen permits for new gas terminals in an area that is already buckling under cancer and heart defects and lung diseases because of all the the the pipelines and refineries and everything in the Gulf. And if these gas terminals go through, it's a climate time bomb. It's the end. It's a disaster. We have to stop it. So I'm going to go there with fire drill Fridays and film interviews and try to build opposition to this locally and nationally

so that we can stop it. Biden should be ashamed of himself. I'm glad you're doing that. When are you doing that soon? Well, I go in June. I go in May. And then the second half of the year, we're focusing on California because, you know, we got Gavin Newsom, the governor, to sign a bill that was so important to create a 3,200-foot health and safety buffer between oil wells, fracking pits, and communities, schools and playgrounds and stuff like that. And now the oil companies have got a ballot that we'll vote on in 24 to undo it. I would like to be a part of the work you're going to do here in California. Wow. Well, that's a big deal. Well, I would love to do it. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you. Please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So now I just want to ask you a couple more quick questions and then you can bolt and get the hell out of here. Unless the power goes out and then I'll have to call you back a third time. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? No is a complete sentence. Yeah. No apology after it. Just no. Just no.

That's a good one. I love it. I love it. that that came from i'll tell you who that came from annie lamat who was um doing a book signing in atlanta was the biggest turnout for any author i had ever been to i love her books me too and somebody asked her to read a script they had and there were like 2,000 people in the theater and she said no i learned at aa that is a complete sentence oh that's so good i love that i love that I'm totally going to use that. Yeah. Speaking of saying no, is there something you'd go back and say yes to?

You know, I often think I'm sure that there were a number of men that came my way who were perfect for me, who were not afraid of saying, come on, Fonda, show up. Let's be real, okay? Show up. And could have taken it and could have revealed himself as well and didn't need drugs or alcohol or anything else to, and I wonder who they were. And if I had been wiser, I would have said yes. I see. Yeah. This is not a question. This is a comment. I have to say your hair color is stunning. Isn't it wonderful? And it's just my own hair color. When did you decide to

go gray? I just decided that I didn't want to have to keep putting chemicals on my head. So I said to Marta Kaufman, who was the showrunner for Grace and Frankie, Marta, I want to go gray. can grace go gray too? And so, you know, put it into the storyline. And we did. We had grace gradually getting gray. Wow. I'm looking forward to doing that. I really am. I'm very gray. Is there anything that you want me to know about aging as I'm entering this third act of my own? Is there anything I should know, Jane? Can you tell me from the front lines? Well, successful aging in the large part depends on good health, so stay healthy. Okay.

Posture is important. You can seem very old if you have bad posture, even if you're not all that old. And keep exercising. You've got to stay strong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Just moving, just moving. Just keep moving. Yeah. Okay. Well, I just adore you. And I, you know, it's funny. just so the audience knows this, we both went to a huge mansion to celebrate Norman Lear's 100th birthday. And on the way, I saw you, and I came over and introduced myself. And I assumed

that we knew each other, but we didn't. We'd never really met before. You know what, though? We did meet once very, very briefly at a, this was back when you were married to Ted, and it was at a global green event that Mikhail Gorbachev is at. Oh, I remember that. I remember that very well that event. But I'll tell you a story about Ted really quick. Yeah. I was seated next to him and he made a comment about all the money that we, him and me, had made from the syndication of Seinfeld, right? And I said, well, actually, Ted, you know what? I don't own Seinfeld, so I didn't really make that kind of money. and then he reaches into his pocket and he gave me a hundred dollar bill. Oh, thanks, Ted.

But that's Ted. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I was surprised that you looked so surprised when I came up to you and greeted you at that Norman Lear party. And I think I was just waiting to become friends with you because I admire you so much. And so this has been really fun for me. This has been a really a big treat for me to be interviewed by you and talking. talking to you. I appreciate it a lot, Julia. I do too, Jane. And I can't tell you what it

means to me that you want to work with us on the California oil issue. Yeah, I do. And I admire you and feel very, very blessed to have been able to have this conversation with you. I just think you're an extraordinary human being. Thanks. And keep that power on. Okay. Okay. We'll talk soon. Thanks. Okay. Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. First podcast, completed. What I have to do now is call my mom. I've got to tell her about this. Her name is Judy, by the way, and she's 89.

And, well, I hope she takes my call. Hello, hello. Hi. Hi, Mommy. How are you? Okay. Can you see me okay? Yes, can you see me?

Ah, I can see you and you're blue? Mom, did you get new glasses? No, I can't find my other glasses. These are great looking, Mom. Thank you. Mom, I talked to Jane Fonda today. Oh, wow. I think I have a new, really good friend, and I am not kidding you.

I think that we became friends in this conversation. She's an incredibly interesting woman, and I think you would really like her. Well, she has done so many things. I don't even know where to begin because it was really such an exciting conversation. Actually, I do know where to begin. So I showed her my senior yearbook page because, do you remember, I put a quote on my senior yearbook page, and it was from Lillian Hellman. I asked her if she would read it, and she did. She read it aloud.

She must have been so touched by that. I mean, and you're so touched by it. That's incredible. But what she said was, this is a better quote. And she pulls a book out and she reads the following from T.S. Eliot's Little Getting, we shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. That's so wonderful.

Can you talk about where I started? Like, in your mind, are there remnants of who I? I was when I was young now? Oh, absolutely. Because there was a direction that you had innately. And it was sort of both improvisation and it was what happened to you when you became a character, when you were playing and you were being improvising. It was completely believable. And I remember when you were like five and we were, you were sitting in the backseat of the car and you would be having a conversation. with Mickey Mouse. And it would be not just a little pastime. Ha, ha, ha, ha. It got to be,

and I'm not saying it was a lose nation. It was something that you were creating, and it had mass to it. By the way, I remember being in the backseat playing Mickey Mouse. I think it might have been Mighty Mouse, actually, if I recall. Not to split hairs. But I do remember having an epiphany thinking, what if Mighty Mouse fails? What if he's got something to do and it doesn't work out? So I was sort of rewriting something. Anyway, it's stayed with me ever since. Right.

Well, that's very interesting because, I mean, I think all play is about life. Right. Don't you? Totally, yeah. I think it's wonderful. All right, Mommy, I have to say goodbye to you now. I'm being told by my producers.

that I have to say goodbye. Well, I guess you have to listen to them and I say goodbye. Oh, and I'll also say I love you. I love you too. Very much. Very much. Bye. Okay.

Bye. Okay. Bye. Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McOwen, and OHA Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content, and our VP of weekly production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is

by Cat Yore and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Christman Cohen, Ivan Kriyev, and Keegan Zemma. And of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Thank you.