Podcrushed - Why Won't You Date Me: Nicole Byer Interviews Penn

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Today we bring you an episode of Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer. From Nicole’s feed: “Oh my god, he's here. Penn Badgley (You, Gossip Girl, host of Podcrushed) joins Nicole to discuss why people are infatuated by his serial killing character, why love is not depicted accurately in media, bringing down your walls to connect with people, and the existential insecurities he had when dating.” Follow Podcrushed on socials:InstagramTwitterTikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Hello everybody, it's Sophie here. Podcrushed Season 1 is complete, as you all know. But in the meantime, we wanted to share an episode of another podcast that Penn guested on called Why Won't You Date Me, which is hosted by none other than podcrushed Season 1 alumna Nicole Beyer, who you may remember from her joint episode with Sashir Zameda earlier this year. Nicole is one of our absolute favorite podcasters and her episode of Why Won't You Date Me with Penn is such a blast. So sit back and enjoy. Does anyone else ever get that nagging feeling that their dog might be bored? And do you also feel like super guilty about it? Well, one way that I combat that feeling is I'm making meal time everything it can be for my little boy, Louie. Nom Nom does this with food that actually engages your pup senses with a mix of tantalizing smells. textures and ingredients. Nom Nom offers six recipes bursting with premium proteins,

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get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why. Oh, baby, welcome to another episode of Why won't you date me? A podcast where me, Nicole Byer, tries to figure out how I'm still single, even though you could push me off a clip and say, see you later, bitch. You're flying.

My guest today is an actor from Gossip Girl and the hit Netflix series, and the hit Netflix series, which is my absolute favorite show, you. He hosts a new podcast called Pod Crush, where he reads your middle school stories. I am so excited Oh I'm so excited to introduce you to Penn Badgley What a welcome

That's really amazing I just want to listen to you now Now that I'm a host of a podcast Which I'm not here just a shamelessly plug I'm really excited to be on the show But I appreciate what it is to host And you know I don't want to scare off would-be listeners

I'm not used to hosting yet And listening to you now, I'm just like, damn, she's, you've got it. You know, you've really got it. Thank you. I appreciate it. I just have a lot of energy and I'm constantly exhausted. You know, that might be an answer to the question. No, I'm glad. No, Nicole, you're single because you're always sleeping. You're just so tired. And if you're awake, you're always screaming. Penn, boring question. Your name, Penn. Is this your government name? A name you have chosen? It is. It is all of these things. I've chosen it over time. It's my government name. It's also such a ready nickname that I think people struggle to come up with something new. It's just my name. It's from a tennis ball. That is a true story. My dad was bouncing at Penn Tennis Fall. My mom said something along the lines of, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball right now. They agreed on my name. The joke is that's the only thing they did. ever agree on you know so they they have similar troubles as you i think you know fair i mean that's funny

he's like the size of a tennis ball well let's name him after the tennis ball i like it yeah yeah i mean it's simple it's simple it's fun i wish my name was like like my mom was eating a strawberry and was like i think she's the size of a strawberry called a strawberry strawberry strawberry buyer oh i wish that was my name. Yeah. Oh, well. I don't know, I don't know why it was, yeah, it's funny because my dad is not that much of a tennis player. I mean, I suppose then maybe, but it makes it sound like we're a different kind of family, to be honest.

A very active family. Yeah, yeah. It's not really the case. Just at these courts. Penn, I have a query. So you, was this an audition or was this an offer? How did you come into your life? Yeah, right.

It was a little bit of both in the sense that they pursued me. But it wasn't a straight up offer. I did have a soft read because I have something along the lines of tenure at Warner Brothers. Yeah, I read with Greg and Sarah, the co-creators. And they let me know in a few hours. after they, you know, they made the offer and they were persistent beforehand as well. And so, you know, it was an interesting thing where I chose to do it more out of the conversations I had with them than what the material itself was screaming at me. Because the material was screaming at me and it was screaming so loudly and intensely that I wasn't, I was like, I don't know if I want to play this guy for five years and cut to me five years later.

I mean, I love Joe, which is an insane thing to say out loud. Yeah, well, he murders. No, but I mean, look, you're not alone, and it's, uh, it's definitely a thing. It's definitely a thing. Okay. I think I can explain the thing. So like, he murders, but then he's like, but I did it out of like love, right? And then I'm like, he did do it out of love.

That's nice. Yeah, it is. I mean, on one level, yeah, I think it's that. I think it's that he actually mimics and models and seems to be the, image of love that we're accustomed to seeing. But we're only accustomed to seeing that in movies and TV. And I mean, I actually think, I don't know,

I mean, we live in such a media-saturated age. It's like the things we see on TV and movies, it's hard to not fantasize about your own life in so many moments, like, this could be better if it was like the things that I was seeing. You know what I mean? So he's a, he's a representation, I guess. But then, of course,

you encounter him in real life and I don't know well he's not a real character so I'm not really worried about that one here's a question the choice of Joe I will stop talking about you in a second I promise eventually it's fine hey listen we got an hour right there right the choice to have

Joe wear a baseball cap as a disguise whose choice was that it's very funny to me you know that's a good question I think it must be from the books although I'm not sure I'm not sure because I mean so much of the DNA of the show, not all of it, but much of it comes from the books. I don't recall if that is

not in the book. It wouldn't be so iconic in the book because the book is just such a different experience. So whatever, whatever, if it was in the book, I mean, the choice to have me wear it as frequently as I do. And, you know, look, the truth is when you're shooting something, when you're filming something you just have to get it's i don't know i mean it's just things things are going to look uh i find myself often when we're filming a scene i i i am comically close to the people i am stalking and i and i look comically conspicuous in uh in like a windbreaker and a hat you know it's really funny to me i like it's one of the things i like the most because i'm like in real life joe would be caught so quickly because joe's not very good at hiding no yeah

evidently he's not no uh it's yeah yeah although you know i still find myself um there's a version of of me living my life where where i go very unnoticed and and i and i even find it hard to speak up for myself. And so I find that I can kind of disappear a little bit like that. So, you know, it is, it's like, it's like, it can seem silly, but I don't know. I mean, I think if you wanted, I think if I, I'm not trying to encourage people to try, but I do think that if you wanted to, I do think if you really felt compelled to follow someone and you just had the strange lapse of uh well conscience but also like i don't know insecurity you just kind of go for it and then you know in a big city you could probably find that you

follow somebody for a while you say that but i'm a true cartoon if the person i was following me turned around i'd be like ah um and like look around and be like not me i wasn't yeah that's fair i mean we're all we're all we're all we're all different. Here's another question. So Joe has like an internal monologue. I have an internal monologue. Do you Penn have an internal monologue? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, definitely.

I think the point is like we all have some version of an internal monologue. Some people don't. Just who's do we want to hear though? You know, because you really think people don't? I mean, isn't what is thinking then? What is thinking? I asked my old roommate. I was like, when you go to the bathroom, does your brain go?

hmm I better go to the bathroom and I should do it now because if I wait that won't be good he was like no I just go to the bathroom and I feel like I have to go to the bathroom I was like you don't like think about it first and like oh I see what you mean so so so so so so you mean internal internal monologue like like like like overthinking everything and wondering about the consequences of like whether I do it right now or five minutes from now oh man yeah no I have that a lot of times but I think I noticed that that's when I've either had too much caffeine or I'm hungry or I'm tired. What is it?

Halt. Hungry, angry, late, tired? What's the, is that what it is? Halt? That comes from Halt.

I didn't even know there was an acronym for it. It's basically like stop, try, stop. Oh. If you're coming to an argument, basically. Yes.

I think it's like, it's like, halt. Stop if you're hungry, angry, angry. What is the L? Oh, okay. So, Marr is my producer. Hungry, Angry, lonely, tired.

Lonely, tired. So that is. describes what percentage of the human population at any given point in time. Wow. Yeah. Mine is probably tired. I'm tired a lot. Yeah.

I mean, if we have to record this podcast on the weekends, yeah, we're both tired. Let's be real. Yeah, we know why. We know why. Okay. Penn, I have a question. When did you start acting? Professionally, actually, when I was 12, which has to do with why I'm,

interested in this period of life, which is what my podcast is about. A pod crushed. Available on all platforms. What day does it come out? Talk to people. It's already out. You can listen to it. Yeah, it's been out for like a month or so.

We can get to that. Or I can talk about it now by talking about when I started acting. I mean, so I was 12 when I moved to L.A. and became professional. And I think if you ask anybody, what was going on? in your life when you were 12 that's usually it makes you stop and think so so i'll ask you that in a moment i'll try to answer a little bit more of your question um so i started doing theater when i was about like eight or nine because my family had moved from the east to the west coast from virginia to washington state very different places uh we we didn't we lived kind of in the middle of nowhere

and i wasn't enrolled in a school for the first several months because it was uh the end of that school year going into summer. So I had no social outlet and no neighbors, really. Like our driveway was two tracks up the mountain, really like that kind of vibe. And actually, probably part of it, my cat, who I loved dearly, disappeared after three days. Oh, no. Having moved there, it was probably killed by coyotes. That's what we always figured. Certainly not alive now. We know that much. Be very old. yeah that would be a mystical cat um and and and i was just i was lonely i was one of the things

i was lonely uh and i think my mom out of guilt just was like really wrecking her brain trying to think of things for me to do and uh i don't remember this part so well but as she tells it that she saw an ad in the paper she that must have been what it was because i mean i i wasn't how else would we have known about anything it was a it was an ad to to audition for the music man for like a local community theater it was actually in a church playhouse like 50 miles away from where we lived i went and auditioned uh got it and at that opening night i you know i mean i really do remember just the feeling and wanting to do it for the rest of my life and you know a lot of it i don't think is even it's performing sure but it's community it's

it's it's the experience i mean you know what it's like when you're working on a job you the whole um crew cast and crew everybody is uh just or you know you can have your own feelings about it but you are all there for a common goal you know you are all there working towards something and and you actually especially when i was that age doing doing community theater you really get all types like all types all all walks of life all ages all backgrounds so um i just liked that you know it wasn't like just it wasn't just hanging out with a bunch of other 12 year olds because we're in the same grade or whatever, you know. And frankly, from that point on, I did not have much of an academic, a consistent academic path. I tested out early and I was working full time by the time I was 15. So, so, you know,

so really that, that period of 12 to 15 was like transitioning into by the time I was 15, that was the first time I was like a lead on a show. And for Warner Brothers, actually. And, you know, that's what I do now. And so that's, uh, that's how it all. started that's nice it's nice that you like found it early and then you were like yeah I'll keep doing this this is good yeah I mean there's a lot of things about it because again then the thing the reason I think about this period of life one of the reasons I think about this time in life like around about 11 to 15 you know what we in America call middle school is like this is a formative period of life and for me I had some formative experiences that were just I mean you know Hollywood is

Hollywood and I was technically a child actor and yeah it's just you know it's not not the best of environments so so while I now can appreciate being very in some ways like a veteran you know like for certainly for my age been doing it for what I guess I've been professional for like 23 years that I can appreciate that and you're right there's something very nice about that there's something very streamlined and focused about it I've always been focused on this craft as long as I can remember. And that is cool, you know. And regardless of talent, I have, I have a certain proficiency, you know what I mean? Whereas just like being on a set, being in front of a camera, doing what I do, especially for Joe. I mean, Joe, I stand in front of a

camera and silently emote so just all the time. So much. So often I go to work. I do not have any lines. I don't have any lines. Well, that means because I'm proficient. It's because I've been doing this for so long you know like it's just it's just standing in front of a camera standing in front of a camera and and and and and somehow like opening up like I know what it may in fact if the camera isn't rolling like I can't rehearse the same you know and I think it's probably a difference between television and and theater or like film and television and theater there's just something like I can't rehearse the same as well you know I mean look If you were to do like a, I don't know, if you were to just kind of sketch out what you're going to do when you introduce something on one of your shows, you know, it's not the same as when you're hitting record. It's just not the same.

You are correct. You know, and so I have that, to possibly an extreme degree, I mean, especially on a show where I have no lines most of the time. I mean, my, in rehearsal, I almost have to, um, that's my time. to sort of just make jokes the entire time. That's kind of what I do. And, you know, sometimes I think there, I, I, I hope that I'm respectful to the other actors and know, know the line. Like, no, not. You know, and when we really need to rehearse, I want us to rehearse. It's just that in television, you don't have that much time anyway.

But the point is, is that I'm just very used to, like, just, I know what it is to stand in front of a camera and somehow like really try to open up emotionally and then and then and then the the joke is I think actually for many actors is that it's like you can become far better at doing that in front of a camera than you can in front of another human being and I and I don't try to live my life that way but real emotional health is um I mean that's the that's the that's the kindera that's the sort of holy grail we're all looking for right and and so that actually I I I honestly want to know, like, how serious is the premise of your show? Because I said a few things early on, and I hope you didn't take the wrong way. I'm making a joke based on your

joke. But, like, what's, what's, uh? The premise of this show, truly just, yeah, trying to figure out why I'm still single. And I mean, one of the reasons is I am not good at opening up to people when I'm not working, because people are like, you're very vulnerable on your podcast. But I went on a couple of dates with this guy and at one point he I think it was like three or four he looked at me and he was like I don't really actually know anything about you I know that you're good at joking I know that you're really funny but like how did you grow up and I was like what why do you want to know this he's like because I want to get to know you and I was like oh okay and in that moment I was like oh okay I guess I got to like bring down walls if I do want to be with

someone because when you date somebody hopefully it's not just a surface relationship it's a deeper connection um and i have a real problem with letting people in because then i'm like what if they go away so then there's like abandonment issues so like i kind of know why she's single but you know it's fun to make it funny yeah yeah yeah i mean you know i of course we all yeah we all i think it's interesting with stuff like that because we often know you're able often you're able to name what's wrong but that doesn't mean you can change it yes and that's that's a profound thing you know and i mean that's like that is i am interested in that and that is kind of why you know i guess podcasts are places where people can a little bit more informally explore the things they're interested in and i and i guess a lot of

at the end of the day, what we care about most are relationships, you know? I mean, and so I'm just, do you think, do you think, I mean, if, when we talk about bringing down walls, that's a phrase that people use a lot. Do you, I mean, I guess it feels a little bit like a dumb question to say like, well, why do they come up? When do they come up? But I do think that it's, I have this kind of theory along with my co-hosts of our show that it's, there's certain informative things to start happening when you're around about 12, 12, 13, 14, you know. And it's like, if the wall was built before then, that is a time where you could work on not putting any more bricks on the wall. And maybe the rest of your life you can spend time taking down a shorter wall,

a smaller wall, you know, or it's a time where the world can start telling you things that you really have to buy and embody and then you start building up the walls like even more. Do you know What I mean? Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I would say that probably in middle school, that's when I started like building walls. I went to, I lived in like an all white town. My middle school, I think it was just me and my sister. Maybe there was four other black kids. And I was zitty and chubby. I was fat. And just truly not at my best. So I think I just didn't want to be rejected. So, or. or when I was rejected, my feelings would get hurt. So then I'd be like, well, then I'm not going to try. And I'll just be funny. And maybe that's how I'll find somebody. So then I, like, worked on loving myself.

And, like, I do love myself. But then the thought of somebody loving me is still, uh, that feels, uh, improbable. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, well, do you feel like, uh, do you feel, when you say love, do you, when you say love, do you think of love as being unconditional in a perfect world i think love is unconditional but i think in practice and in reality it is conditional it and yeah yeah you can't be an asshole and still expect somebody to love you you can't keep hurting someone's feelings or pushing their boundaries and then

expect them to love you it's like you kind of have to what is it uh compromise and in compromise i think love can grow. I think. But again, I don't know. No, I think so. No, I think, no, I think that's true. I think that's true. I mean, I don't know. I, you know, I've been married for five years, which is, I don't know. I don't know what that is. But I would say that my wife and I, we've been together for eight years. And there's, you know, I think, I mean, what it really takes to be in a relationship past a few years, because that's what, But, you know, I mean, I feel like in my 20s, in my teens and 20s, it was just a, it was just a couple of really meaningful relationships that lasted for a couple of years. And then it was like, and I don't think I ever knew anybody who had something going beyond that, save for people who seemed, who seemed like maybe they were kind of stuck in something or, or then they did, they would get married. And frankly, when I was in my 20s, that just seemed kind of crazy. But yeah, you know, I do think a huge part. So there's the personal stuff, sure. And, I don't know. That's what it is.

But I think a huge part of people struggling in relationships, whether it's struggling to be in one or struggling to stay in one or struggling to get out of one that you should be out of or whatever it is, like, is like we honestly have seen so many frigging love stories and heard so many love songs that are all about courtship, basically, slash, you know, the moment up until you really have to do. do quote unquote the work you know and then past that all of our stories about breaking up and it's bittersweet and it's like kind of it feels good you know it's like think of think of all the movies and the stories that we've seen which like ah this love exists love is the best feeling in the world it's like well actually all we have is just like the the sort of ramp up and the and the breakdown we don't ever really see a story about the thing itself yeah like what it takes to you know a relationship together that is interesting because it's like chasing someone is like you have euphoria because you're like lots of dopamine is being expelled and you're like will i get

them will they reject me will we come together you get together you have like a honeymoon phase where you're happy for a while and then it's like yeah then we cut to the breakup where it's like rage hate sadness it's just like the height of emotions and then extreme emotions yeah i guess maybe it's because the middle is just like, work? Well, it's not an easy story to tell, I think. Yeah. And it lasts longer, actually, which is ironically what we want, but it's not, yeah. I mean, because I've spent, as I said earlier, like, you know, most of my conscious, mature life, like, before I was an adult, but most of my, you know, basically since middle school, I've been an actor playing.

like people in a relationship, basically, you know? I mean, honestly, so I've thought about this a lot, you know? Like, just thought about how it is that all of our love stories these days do or don't have an influence on us. And I mean, you know, some could accuse me of overthinking. Okay, fine. Fine. But I think it's there.

I think it's like there's a role that all this stuff that we watch us plays. And it's, I don't know, I mean, because I spend so much time doing it, I have to, you know, I mean, I guess I take it seriously. And I really want to see, you know, what I like about my show, you is that you kind of know the whole time that it's not trying to say that any of this is what you should be pursuing. But ironically, it feels a lot like all the things that you see in other shows, it feels like you should be pursuing. You know, it's like, it's like, it's like, but just the asterisk's like, oh, but he's a murderer and this is actual toxic, you know, it's not great. Real quick, we got to take a break. All right. So, let's just, let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now.

That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down

want to know that I'm that I'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but I need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly I turned to symbiotica these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and I'm telling you um even before I started doing ads for these guys it was a product that I uh I really really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with um the three that I use I use uh the the what is it called the liposomal vitamin C and it tastes delicious like really really good comes out in the packet you put it right in your mouth some people don't do that i do it i do it i think it tastes great i use the

liposomal glutathione as well in the morning um really good for gut health and although i don't need it you know anti-aging um and then i also use the magnesium l3 and eight which is really good for for i think mood and stress i sometimes use it in the morning sometimes use it at night all three these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. If you want to try them out, go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. The first few weeks of school are in the books, and now's the time to keep that momentum going. I-XL helps kids stay confident and ahead of the curve. I-XL is an award-win

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slash podcrushed. Visit ixl.com slash podcrushed to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. When you date or when you were dating, did you ever find that since you're an actor and since like you're pretty well known that people thought that maybe you would be different? Has anyone ever articulated that to you? Like, oh, you're way different than I thought you would be. I have had well I've had people articulate that to me which I think has to end up being the case no matter who you are

nobody's who you think they are I think Madonna is exactly who I think she is okay so every exception proves a rule well to be fair I you know I didn't I've scarcely dated in my life I'm not going to lie to you here

And I know that sounds a bit maybe absurd, but I, I, I have, I'm trying to think. So when I was a teenager, I had one really long relationship from, from like 15 and 19. Oh, okay. And then, uh, nothing, uh, until the next significant relationship, which was my early 20s. Then basically I just had three relationships in my 20s that were, very meaningful and then the third one was the person I married and and to be honest I've had no I've been on I think you could you could you could call I've been on maybe two dates and I'm not I'm really not exaggerating here I yeah I never engaged casually the way uh you know so many people do or think they need to and would imagine I a person in my position would um I find I mean look actually the premise that you're exploring and joking about and so many people are are grappling with, like dating culture. I find dating culture to be really reductive.

It always made me so anxious and so insecure. And then, you know, I'm so, so, but to get to your actual question, when I, let's see, when I was 23-ish, 24-ish, I had probably like a date with a person. and she clearly knew I mean knew who I was and stuff but you know and we like we I think we only even met up to hang out in any capacity like three or four times maybe five and you know in that we weren't able to go that deep I just always found it so awkward so incredibly awkward and being famous did add to that because all like a you know every insecurity that someone has is just magnified by fame frankly i mean you know you have your moments where you able to your ego will have its

moments where it will embrace everything and act a fool and be quote unquote cool but really most of the time it just makes you insecure because all you can think about is how you don't live up to the expectation of what people would think would have of you you know so so so I don't know what I would have. I honestly, up until I got married, I wondered when it was that I would feel more secure and stable in the dating culture that made me feel so insecure and unstable. But then I just got married. So there we go. That's nice. I'm not saying it's the answer. The answer is just get married. You got to miss out on apps, which is. I did entirely. Yeah. God bless.

You know, frankly, when people talk about that, I'm like, you know, I'm really happy about not having to deal with that. Yeah, bless all of you. Yeah, it's awful. Dealing with that. It's truly the worst because you, like, in the beginning, when I first started using apps, I would go back and forth talking to people and then meet them and then go, oh, my God, you're not as quick and as witty as you were in the texting, but it's like, oh, you had a couple hours to come up with something to say back to me. or it's like oh you look different or you're like oh man your smell doesn't work with me in my nose yeah it is it's tough i hate it it's really awful i honestly can only imagine it when i have friends i actually was sitting on uh after i recovered from covid i was i was staying at my aunt's place here in london

my aunt-in-law um and i was hanging out with um her son my cousin two of my cousins my british cousins who were like young men like early 30s and we were and and and as far as I'm aware yeah tell them about me yeah I will I will I'll just link them to this episode I'll be really sly initially um and we were we were one of them was just discussing uh how do I even say this he was he was so I he had some form of a DM on this app and he was you know basically saying, oh, I just got this message from this person. And I think we both were like in our own way, kind of interested just to be a supportive person in the room at that moment. But I don't know, you know, is like all I can do when, when, because, you know, these are two

slightly younger men who were both very single or at least, yeah, that's what I, yeah, I think they're both single. And I mean, you know, I've been married for like five years in a relationship for eight. that's that's a while that's a different place than single and so and so all i wanted to do was just break down like oh man all this stuff that you guys are worried about not that it's not real not that it's not legitimate not that it's not valid but it's such the opposite of what you need to be doing in a relationship of any kind that you want to be happy because you're having to sort of perform you're having to like overcome all of these conventions who were created by whom by the way Like, what, what is the, you know, this, like, lowest common denominator standard that develops over time?

You're like, listen, three dates or listen, three DMs or, listen, you can't, you got to go to a coffee shop on the first one. That is wild. During the day. You know what I mean? Basically, who is it usually but toxic men? I mean, honestly, I mean, honestly, isn't that who? Maybe not. Maybe, maybe, hopefully women are creating more to sort of protect themselves.

I'm not sure. Because there are so many weird little rules. where it's like, don't text him immediately. Yeah, right. You gotta hide your, you have to slow your role to make sure what,

to basically do that thing where you act as though you aren't interested so someone will be more interested. By the way, what is that? That's middle school. That goes back. That goes back

to the most adolescent shit. It does go very, very, very far back to being a child. And that doesn't sustain, it doesn't sustain a real relationship. Like, that's not what friendships are based on. It's not what, you know, I'm healthy friendships. Yeah. Yeah. It's just to me, so I'm, I think years down the line, whereas in my early 20s, I actually lied straight up,

by the way, just lied about my dating sort of history because I thought that people would think I was, you know, an alien for not really having one. But now I feel kind of validated and vindicated. like yeah that shit is crazy and kind of like dehumanizing because we didn't have you know feminist language wasn't wasn't the norm that you know it's kind of becoming a kind of a norm now you know like young men are more aware of a lot of this stuff but back then you know even just 10 15 years ago it wasn't and and I and frankly yeah just the things that are expected of a of a young man in particular in New York City, in dating culture, like, I tapped out. I tapped out real early. You're like, this is not for me. Yeah, it's not for me. I like that, though. How did you meet your wife?

Somewhat, as they say randomly, a mutual friend was one of the things, was hungry and actually two of the things, lonely, maybe even tired, because it was late. And she was at, uh, she was at this old meatball shop on Bedford Ave in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, those who live there know it. I love meatball shop. And, uh, this friend, this mutual friend of ours was, was texting, I think as many people as she could to, to no longer be lonely, you know? I mean, not that she was struggling with loneliness. She was just sitting alone and was like, hey, I want some friends to come meet me. And so that's what she did. I was one of them. I actually, I actually wanted to leave. I was, I was, I was, it was cold January. I was tired. I was sick. I was in the period of had bronchitis

repeatedly. I was not in a position to be hanging out and having a drink, let alone dating, let alone, you know. So I thought I was going home and just doing like a kind of a like a, a nice charitable. friends stop like hey and when i found other people were coming i was like oh great i can leave and then she told me she told me uh oh my friend domino's coming and i said the words i said this i said i said i feel like i could fall in love with that person and that's insane i mean it's a little insane you know it's actually it but but that's what i said and that's kind of what i felt and then she came and i and you know we did have that moment of eye contact and she's a bit glowy and i think she has this effect on a lot of people,

not even in a romantic sense, but she's very, you know, she's like a, I don't know, she's, there's something about her that, you know, you do kind of get that. So I didn't think it was maybe unique to me. I was actually, again, you know, I was not feeling up to the whole dating culture element of it.

In fact, here's the response that I would always have when I would meet somebody that I, quote, unquote, liked. I would immediately just be like, well, it's not going to happen because, because because of all of that dating shit, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it would give me deep pangs of insecurity and inadequacy and just like, actually the beginning of every serious relationship I've had is marked by

by like a heartache of like woe and anxiety. But then, you know, I guess I get over that and then it can be. great in a relationship you know but that's yeah that's that's how that's how it started where do you think the insecurities in dating come from with you or used to used to come from with you yeah it's like you know you're a very handsome man so like yeah what is it well yeah i you know pretty people get insecure it's true it's true i mean i honestly think it's it's it's it's kind of like it's existential stuff It does. I mean, for me in particular, I've, trust me, I've wondered what it was for a long time and unturned every stone I could. And I think there are some specifics that go back to childhood that I can understand. You know, a lot of that stuff has to do with kind of how you were raised, environments in the home. For everybody, as specific as it gets, it does go to some common universal, I think. thing, which is, I think, like, you know, we talked earlier about love being unconditional,

but really not. I think that love in its nature is unconditional, but the way that it's usually expressed between people, even parents and children, is quite conditional. You know, and that, and that, I think is like the fear, so I was an only child. I actually have a half-sister who I do love and have, like, a good relationship with now, but we didn't grow up together because she's so much older within me. And so I just think, like, isolation. I just think isolation was maybe part of it. I mean, that explains a lot.

Whenever I have too much time alone with my thoughts, I'm like, oh boy, we're spiraling. How was the pandemic then for you? So the pandemic was okay only because I had a roommate. I had a roommate and his boyfriend moved in with us. So there was three of us. And then as soon as they were like, you could be outside. I was like, great.

I'll start a roller skating gang where we'll meet once a week. I was just, I knew in my head that I like people. I need to be around people. People either suck my energy or feed my energy. And that's just who I am. So I just like made sure I saw people regularly enough to keep myself healthy and sane. Yeah. Yeah.

But if I lived alone during the pandemic, I don't, it would have been bad. Yeah. Well, I guess that was probably true. I mean, yeah, I was thinking about, for us, we, I mean, my wife was pregnant and I have a stepson who's 13. Well, he's 13 now. What was he? He was like 10, 11, 12. We had two dogs.

We had my stepson's father nearby. We had, I mean, we just had like a full house. like kind of at all times so it was like every now and then we dreamed about the kind of isolation of our younger friends you're like I wish I could have a moment alone yeah but but at the same time it was uh quite bonding in some ways you know um how did you propose to domino or did domino propose to you well um there was a moment that was like a proposal but I did I kind of opened it up you know, this is going to sound kind of obnoxious, I think, depending on, I, I didn't really propose, because if you think about it, you know, if you're making a proposal, like, what's that

word, you know, you're saying, will you marry me? But really, the question should be, what do you think about marriage? What does it mean to be married? do we feel that we're ready for this? So it was romantic in the sense that I like filled an Airstream trailer on her mom's backyard property. I filled it with a bunch of roses,

although not that many, not enough. I imagined more. When you say the number that you think is a lot and then you see it, it's not as many as you'd think. You got to just get some more? Well, you know, Christmas lights and all that, it was actually really beautiful. And, yeah, I didn't, I didn't, like, as they say, pop the question, but it was more, it was more. And I did, you know, I had a ring, which, by the way, you know, you think about this.

I remember when I was getting the ring and I was like, I don't like that one of the first people I'm, who knows that I'm hopefully about to get engaged is, is working a cash register. like talk about capitalist patriarchal blah blah blah like it really hit me then you know i was like that's not right the first person who should know that i'm doing this technically speaking should be the person i want to get engaged to yeah you know and i and and like buying the all of it felt like such it we're talking about norms and conventions like none of it felt it felt good but it didn't feel natural and it didn't always feel the way the good the kind of good that i think it should like And I say this now in the security of, like, you know, having lived through the ups and downs and been married for a while. And, like, we, you know, it's like, in a way, like, we're so good that I can, we can now look back and see all those things that make you so nervous and make you so scared in the beginning in certain points, you know?

Like, but I remember feeling so, part of the reason I was so nervous leading up to that point was because I didn't feel as though I could talk to her about it because I had to be all mysterious and romantic. and propose you know what i mean whereas you should be you should be talking about it yeah and then she's like an object that i'm like all right i've done all the figuring out i'm ready will you that's not that's not again that's not like the grounds for a super stable or at least good and exciting relationship where there's like a quality you know and so that was that was another moment i was like this all of this just feels so like it's not my nature to do it like this but i'm having to follow this friggin guidebook who wrote it yeah who wrote it who did it i think i think it was k jeweler or something maybe not k i don't know there was one jewelry company that just created engagement

rings they were like you got to get your girl a ring and then it became like a thing in like the 50s that must be true which is like so interesting to me and it's also interesting because it's like it's a very big decision that involves two people but one person has to go away and think about it on their own until they choose to include the second person. My parents got engaged. I think, I don't even know if my dad had a ring, but I know he said to my mother, so do you want to do it? And she said, do what?

He was like, I don't know. Do you want to get married? And she was like, well, can you ask me nicely? So it was like a cute little conversation because my dad was the furthest from a romantic person. But yeah, I think it should be more. It shouldn't have to be a thing. I think it could be more of a conversation.

And I think that's nice. And then you could talk about it. It's like, do you want a proposal? What would you like? Yeah, right. I mean, obviously, romance is a nice thing to have. Mystery, surprise. Yeah, okay.

But at the same time, like, what is in the foundation of the thing? What's in the engine of the thing to really make it run and last and be good and be enjoyable? And I just don't feel like those things play as much of a role as we. think partly because you know we see all these stories where it's nothing but mystery surprise and romance but then again like these people like romeo and juliet die at the end you know in a way that's by the way i'm just thinking about it because someone was talking about uh you know we got the we got the the other baslemy movie coming out now elvis and so someone was mentioning his version of romeo and juliet and my stepson is reading reading shakespeare in his in his class and and i yeah i was just i was just you know

revisiting that that one and it's such that story has so many different levels to it because you have so many people who just kind of see the love story of it and like want that you know and it's like guys they they both like commit suicide at the end yeah it's a full-blown tragedy for so little reason yeah for so little reason you know yeah it's a miscommunication and then and aren't they 15 I believe they're 15. They're younger than we think. They might have been like, maybe like, maybe it's like 13 and 16 or 14 and 16. Yeah.

But they're young. I want to see a production with kids that age. And I think we would all be like, what is this? This is devastating. What? I'm devastated. What is this? Yeah.

It's funny because when you watch it with adults, you're like, well, they're adults. They made a choice. But it's like, no, they were children. Yeah. A lot of love could be, I think, categorized under tragedy, which is sad, but also, I don't know, feelings are feelings. And in therapy, I'm learning about how, like, how to hold a space for my feelings.

Because my other therapist, she was like, feelings aren't facts. And I said that to my current therapist. And she's like, well, yeah, feelings might not be facts. But there is a world where you just hold some space and feel those feelings. And know that it's not necessarily. true but like you can just you know feel it for a little bit until you can move on and I was like ooh I like that yeah I think I think the balance between those things I think because feelings aren't

facts you know they but they may as well be because you feel them yeah and you can't ignore your feelings that's you know I mean that's actually the strange beautiful irony of it which all of our lives whoever is able to really lie to themselves about their feelings like serial killers maybe maybe but even then i think they kind of have like a point where they're like hmm i don't feel great about killing but ma i think i'm going to do it again just one more time yeah that's that's that's my character work for joe just right there okay real quick we got to take a break As the seasons change, it's the perfect time to learn something new. Whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends,

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Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com slash podcrushed for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash podcrushed to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash podcrushed. But really, though, it's kind of amazing how we forget. Like, our feelings in a way are all we have. have like we are feelings completely eclipse facts regularly i mean regularly look at what's happening to our fill in the blank i don't even have to say the word look at what's happening to fill in the blank

feelings truly like feelings are not facts but feelings seem to eclipse them and i don't know i think as human beings we have to be a bit more honest about that like what does that mean that's that we have to we have to that means actually what your what your second therapist is saying which is, you have to give space to your feelings. And, you know, as an actor, what I feel like I try to do, I have this really brilliant coach, Harold Guskin, who passed and then kind of like in death passed the baton to his lifelong wife, and they were this incredible duo,

and this kind of anti-method that they practice is like, you can't ever. like you know you might think you're an actor this is my inference so this is not necessarily exactly what they would say but you know who do we think as actors who do we as actors think we are some special breed of human who can lie about how they feel just because you're playing a character I don't believe that um so to be honest what I try to do is just be honest about how I feel as I have to say the thing right in the spot wearing the clothes in front of the you know and it's like if you can actually be emotionally present

and honest about how you feel in the moment, that actually is always going to be very powerful you know, no matter what. And if you're saying the thing you have to say, it's just going to seem like a cool choice. And so to me, I'm trying to practice what I preach,

which is this, what we're talking about in terms of emotional health. It's like, you can't, I just feel like so much of what's wrong in the world comes from people lying about how they feel. And it really is even systemic. You know, it is profoundly systemic. It's in our, the infrastructures of our, like, institutions from top down, bottom up, everything, you know, and it's just like, I don't know, people being more.

And this is why I could never date. And this is why, thank God, I don't have to anymore. I'm sorry, Nicole. I'm sorry to you that you have to do this. It's okay. It's my cross to there. You and how many billion others. So many people.

It is interesting that, I mean, I. find it genuinely very hard in the moment unless I'm on a set and unless I'm acting to say how I feel in the moment like when I'm with a friend or if I'm on a date or dating somebody and they've made me angry my go to is to be like no I'm fine I'm yeah don't worry about it and then later be like well I mean I was upset and it's like well why don't you just tell me in the moment and it's like I don't know I guess it's like I maybe I don't want to like make waves but truly like on a set I have no problem advocating for myself being like I don't feel safe doing that this stuff and the other but in life I'm like oh

I don't want to be a bother and I have no idea why I'm like that oh that's interesting so I think that when I'm on set I'm kind of I'm learning how to advocate for myself I mean when you're you know I'm at a point where being number one on the call sheet and like obviously there's people want to make sure that I'm comfortable and happy. But even then, there's such a stigma around people at the top being difficult that I certainly don't want to be that either. I'm not naturally that anyway. And so, yeah, I actually have real trouble advocating for myself on set. I do add things to it where I'm like, I'm not trying to be a bitch, but here's the reasoning behind it.

Is that okay? Do you hate me? You should. No, you, I mean, I think that's. great. I think that's great. I mean, I am an advocate for you advocating for yourself. Oh, Ben, thank you so much. I didn't know this. Wait, are you in a band? Well, the band is not so current, but it's good music that I would encourage anyone to listen to. It's called Mother spelled with a hipster X. Because we had rights issues to the name Mother.

There's so many other mothers. But yeah, M-O-T-H-X-R. You can find that wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, Spotify? Yes, you can. And that's the only thing I could think of. I don't use Spotify. It's very hard for me. Really? I use Apple music and people are always like, oh, Nicole.

I just, okay, so is your phone in dark mode or is it in light mode? Do you know what I mean? Dark mode. See, I don't like the dark mode. It doesn't give me joy. I like the light brightness of- So you just want the white background. I guess so.

And Spotify doesn't have it. Because Spotify always had the black background, right? Yeah. And it makes it both. me out it's too dark interesting interesting that's a good enough reason i mean really what what other difference is there no that's it apple has the the white background and i find it to be bright and poppy that's nice yeah it's a little bit about me that says a lot about you you should share you should share that on on a first or second date i should i should be like do you like

spotify i don't and i'm like okay she's a little intense about this Like that. Okay. I have a question. So you and Cardi B had an interaction on Twitter. Was this an actual interaction? Or was this like a press thingy? It was a Twitter action.

No, it was real. It was real. In that sense, it was totally real. It was spontaneous. I'm trying to think of how it happened. Oh, there were some Barty gang members who, that's what they're called, by the way, right? I'm not just making that up.

The Barty Gang, like her fans. Yeah. They had found some old clip of me on a press tour with Shea Mitchell in the Philippines from 2019, I think. And I was talking about how I don't really feel that comfortable on social media, but I can respect people who do have a more authentic, like, kind of spontaneous relationship to it. And I cited Cardi B as a reference. because I think particularly in 2019 she was in a sweet spot before she

I mean she wasn't diamond then you know what I mean and she was still huge but there was something about the way she was on all her socials that was I found very endearing and it's just directness you know as I guess you know so much the world does and I was just I don't know I was saying something about that

and this clip went out to it was just on Twitter and so this little clip I guess Cardi saw it because people were adding her and me or something like that and then she just tweeted what she tweeted

which was something like oh my god he knows who I am I'm famous famous and you know of course me being who I am and she being who she is I had my response which was what it is

which was just I dashed I mean, it was all genuine, but that's all, you know, I mean, if you think about it, everybody made way more of it than it is. We've still never met in person. We would like to. I hope one day you will. We've tried to make it happen, but I guess it's just going to, we're just going to, it's up to fate now. Up to the universe. I, the reason why I asked I was like, I thought it was just a cute, fun interaction. And then I was like, I hope it was real. Because sometimes you see things, you're like, oh, it wasn't real. Penn, I need to ask you. Penn, I need to ask you. about your podcast. I need to know more about pod crushed. Well, it's, it's, it comes from me and my co-hosts, uh, co-facination with this period of time that we call middle school. And for very different reasons, by the way, like I would say, so my co-hosts, Navakavlin and Sophia, I'm sorry, um, they both actually are in some way former teachers. Uh, one of them was a middle school director, like a vice principal slash director and the other one was a fifth grade teacher

which is funneling right into middle school so they have a lot of like they're very competent professional individuals NAVA used to work at the at the UN as a researcher and a writer and so you know just two people who don't come from media which I liked a lot

and you know we actually knew each other through the Baha'i community in Brooklyn, New York where we were just yeah so I'm I am Baha'i and is the Baha'i faith. It's based on this body of writings and teachings that, you know, you could call it an

independent world religion, but I think its conception of religion is very different from what most of us say when we say religion. But, but, you know, core to the entire teachings, to the Baha'i teachings, is the oneness of humanity. And so all around the world, basically, in every locality, Brooklyn was where I became a Baha'i and found it and explored it and met other Baha'is. is basically where, you know, all these community building activities, which emanate from this essential teaching of the oneness of humanity, you know, what does it mean for people to become protagonists in their own community, regardless of where they are, regardless of who they are, what does that mean? And so there's this essential age that we call the junior youth, which is like 11 to 14 or 12 to 15. And in America, that aligns with middle school. And the reason that this period of life is considered significant is, is it's kind of.

like, you know, what it means to be human, that's when these powers and potentialities, these capacities are all finally really blossoming, you know, your sense of individuality, your sense of justice, your sense of selfhood, your sense of service to others, you know, your sense of just all these qualities that we call human. Before that age, they're not, you know, they exist, but they're not really that developed. And after that age, you know, depending on what you did in that period of time it's like you might be configured one way or the other so so it's like it's just a time where there's a unique window to really empower people that age so I happen to I had a junior youth group I don't know I don't think they at that point had a junior youth group but anyway the point is novice sophia and I years later were just like talking about this and and the concept came out of that because you know it's like And Nava specifically, whose idea it was, like she was, it was really her baby before she brought it to us.

I mean, she used to work at a middle school and she would see how, I mean, you know, as, as, as beautifully as we might imagine this period of life, you know, thinking of all the spiritual potential, this and that, at the end of the day, kids in middle school can seem bipolar, you know, because of all the things that are just going coursing through them physically, you know, it's like, and so she just thought it was like a hilarious time full of insane stories. that everybody must have them. So her idea was to have people send in real stories. And even the idea was initially to have me narrate them. But then we realized that, oh, that's something that I do already. Why don't I just narrate some of these stories? And then we can talk to guests about their stories and that time in their life. And it's so far the sort of thesis that we have that this period of life is uniquely formative for everybody.

It seems to hold true. Oh, it sounds fun. It sounds interesting. Yeah, I like listening to your voice, so maybe I'll listen to it. I like, you narrate very well. Thank you. That is, I do, I honestly, voiceover is, I really like it. I really enjoy it.

It's fun. You did, I think it was a TikTok where you, like, narrated what a girl was doing or something. And I was like, oh, boy, this is a nice genre. I like it. Yeah. By the way, I think people think that I was doing that. just off the cuff, I was not. I was reading a script watching this, you know, it was like a Netflix press thing and it worked. Ah, see, okay. I thought that was organic. There we go. Yeah,

they know how to do it. Well, Penn, we've come to the end. Thank you so much for doing this. You're truly delightful. And I ask all my guests this question. Would you date me? Well, if I wasn't married, I certainly would. Wow. That's delightful. Thank you so much. Penn. Do you have anything you want to promote besides your podcast? Oh, just, just peace and goodwill on earth. You know, we need, that's actually a project I'm in. It's about the dissolution of society that's coming out in 2024. Yeah. It's a, it's a Netflix special. No. Yeah, no, I got nothing else to promote. I got nothing else to promote. That would be very funny. if you had said all that, and you're like, actually drops on Netflix. I would be like, boy, oh, boy, what a dream.

You're nothing like I thought you were. When does the next season of you come out? You season four? It must be. So I'm in London right now shooting that, and we're about halfway through. It should be out. I don't know. Of course, don't know the date.

I would think that it will come out end of year, but no one can hold me to that. Okay. When you get to set on Tuesday, say to a producer, let's get Nicole Byer there. Let's hide her behind a tree and she'll go, ooh, is that Joe? I don't know. And then I'll never appear again. I'll talk to them. As I said, I need to learn to advocate for myself.

So this will be the first step towards, the first step to you advocating for yourself. Self advocacy is. This lady I met over the weekend really wants to be on the show. So can she come? I will pay for my own flight and I could be a local hire. Don't say that on air. Don't take that on air.

Don't do it. I have a lot of points. I'll do it. I love Delta. Thank you so much for doing this, Penn. Thank you for having. me well that's it for this episode of oh why won't you date me if you liked it you can subscribe you can rate it you can give me five stars on apple podcasts if you write me something hitting on me

a nasty little come on uh to why won't you date me podcast at gmail dot com i will read it aloud this nice person said hello nicole i'd like to take you on a romantic candlelit dinner then we'd take a lovely stroll on the beach in the moonlight i take you home kiss you on cheek, then go home to jerk my vainy man meat in the shower. Holy crap. Wow. That's soft. Wow.

Bye-bye. Bye. That's it for Why Won't You Date Me? With me, Nicole Beyer. Why Won't You Date Me is produced and engineered by, oh, the sweetest woman I know, Marissa Melnick. It is executive produced by other wonderful people.

Adam Sacks, Joanna Solo Taroff and Jeff Ross. Thanks for listening. I love you. Thank you so much. We'll be seeing you next Friday with a brand new episode. What a dream. What a dream.

This has been a team, a Cocoa production.