Podcrushed - YOU Finale Rewatch (with Lee Toland Krieger), pt 2

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

Our YOU Season 5 celebration continues! This is part two of our YOU Season 5 finale rewatch episode with director Lee Toland Krieger. And if you want to see clips from the show, watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/zp7H_9NxJso   And preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Nava-Kavelin/9781668077993   Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here: Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok  X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter   You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pennbadgley/  https://www.instagram.com/scribbledbysophie/ https://www.instagram.com/nnnava/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@iampennbadgley  https://www.tiktok.com/@scribbledbysophie  https://www.tiktok.com/@nkavelin  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonado I love when Bronte says I could spot your clumsy rewrite before I knew you. I'm like, yeah, because you know that that would piss Joe off. Yeah. Oh, nothing more than that. That would get him. Yeah, for sure. So good. Welcome to Pod Crushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties.

Which means we're just waiting to sell you drugs. It's so stupid. We're not going to use that one. Hello and welcome. Part two of the finale. Blah, da, blah, da, ba. Da-ba. If you want to hear real words, go back to part one.

No, this is where we are hopefully unpacking Joe Goldberg for the last, the final time, and you are right here with us. We have a friend of the pod. Was it Eddie Redmayne? No. Sorry, it's Lee. Lee Krieger. Not nearly as interesting as Eddie Redmayne. Or, I mean, your guests are great.

I mean, people are going to see this and go like, I don't need to watch this one. You need to watch this one. You do need to watch this one. Maybe this one just because it's the finale. This is the director of the pilot, the second episode of the first season, and then the finale of the last season.

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So we left off where they hit Joe, Joe, and I was going to say Beck, Joe and Bronte were frozen in time in bed. in disarob and disarray. Bronte pulled a gun on Joe. And Penn was making the case that it's the first time that we don't want to see Joe and his you be amorous together. Yes, right. It wasn't enough that you took her life.

You had to take her fucking voice to? You took what was hers. You made it yours. Redact yourself. Take on every fucking word you added. Then what? Mission accomplished? Is this really what you set out to do three years ago? Stop. Stop pretending this is about Beck. Since the day we met, Joe, you have been erasing me.

Peace by piece, my intuition, my compass, myself. The least that I can do. It's erase you. I feel like that scene is so powerful as a viewer, especially as a woman. I feel like so many women feel that way that their intuition is erased, that their voice is erased.

That was just captured so well. And it kind of, I don't know if this is the right word, but it almost justifies the whole series that this is included. It's really meaningful. I really agree with you. I feel like this whole episode is, in moments and fits and stars,

capturing brilliantly all these little moments that justify the entire thing. And in fact, specifically justifying, like, I've always sort of struggled with how palatable we make Joe because you couldn't bring the Joe from the books directly onto the screen. It just doesn't quite work.

But then there's certain things that we really, really, really steered away from the books and just made just so different, like Beck's death, of all things. Beck's death is not seen in the show at all in a way that you're always allowed to sort of, not remember exactly what happened.

You're specifically sort of made to forget about it, which until this moment, I think, was dangerous. And we've been conscious of the fact that, like, we need to be brought to account here. We need to be responsible. And that's why freezing him in this state of vulnerability was important. That's why for her to have the opportunity to say all of this and to communicate it effectively, it was like it's so rewarding. because again in the book you know

you really see it all it's visceral it's it's awful so the books are such a different kind of experience so anyway well and also her now this is what we talked about in part one about her agenda this whole time and and it's going to

giving Beck her voice back right and and the way her voice has been stripped and and Beck's was stripped and all the others along the way love etc we're going to give back her voice back. And I think that's, I'm hoping, very satisfying for audiences who have been with the show, especially since season one. One thing I'll just say, you know, pulling out on kind of a couple

of technical notes here is just that, again, producers were great. We built this bedroom on stage, which really we would not have been able to do everything and we needed to do had we had to do it in that house. And the other thing just I'll mention is there's a really important line in my mind in here, she's saying how did you do it about Beck's death? And we finally get Joe to say you don't want to know, which as far as I was concerned was the first

sort of unqualified admission of guilt from Joe. And we even went back because we were in this bedroom for a couple days, right? And we went back and I was like the second day, I'm like Penn, I'm going to come in really close and let's just do like a series of that line

because I just felt like it was so important to hear him say that. And this is the first time, right, in five seasons. Oh, it's definitely the first time. And making sure that landed with sort of maximum impact. Yeah. And I'll actually say about that, too, this is where I think. I actually think this is what I was trying to do.

You know, the reality of somebody like this is not necessarily as interesting and compelling as it's always dramatized. You know what I mean? And this is where I really was conscious that, like, You know, you get diminishing returns from a sociopath, a psychopath. They're not as compelling as, like, Joaquin Phoenix to watch. You know what I'm saying? And so to me, what I was trying to do with Joe specifically is, like,

actually there's ways that he is uninteresting and dead and predictable and low and narrow and base, and the kind of person you don't want to be around and you don't want to watch. And so this is where at some moments and turns, I thought it was really important to actually be uninteresting because by the end, you want her to be the most interesting. You want her to be the hero. And that's to me where I feel like there's moments of drama,

but this is where I think actually Joe is becoming less interesting. That's a very, I hadn't heard you describe it that way. It's very interesting and very gracious. Did Ted Sarandos just love that pitch? No, no, but I, but. Joe was going to be so dead and then interesting way. You're like, that's why I had trouble finding the right take. No, no.

I just, it was so dull. No, but I mean, I know what you mean. And I think that because by the end of this, we've been rooting for Joe through all of his transgressions. We're rooting for Joe the same way you root for Tom Ripley to the bitter end. And now we really need to pivot in this final episode halfway through. We need to pivot to really rooting for Bronte to win. So I think your point is like,

His, the gig, his little his schick, for lack of the work, is getting, is like, it's getting old now, right? It's done. It's done. It has to be old. And I really don't know. And so as we're getting to, maybe we should just go to the next clip. Well, so if he was going to, I was just going to say, I don't know, I don't know.

I love when Bronte says, I could spot your clumsy rewrite before I knew you. I'm like, yeah, because you know that that would piss Joe off. Yeah. Oh, nothing more than that. That would get him. Yeah, for sure. I don't think it bothered him. that much. Sophie. Can you hear me?

Henry? Are you there? What did you do to mommy? What? Nothing, Bob. But is it what Uncle Teddy said? Well, I'm sure Teddy's just confused. What did he say?

Can you hear me, Henry? Do you remember what you used to tell me there were no monsters in my room? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you were so scared. You lied. What are you saying? It was you.

You're the monster. Oh my gosh My heart breaks for that little boy Frankie Mao He's so good Honestly, I'm not kidding That moment Where he just says

You're the Monster That is one of the best moments I think in the entire series It's also Such understated controlled acting from a

young child like he's not turning on the kid actor thing yeah he's not overwrought he's not I mean it's crazy actually how old is he at that time do you know nine? Eight right he's nine now the boy

is meant to be seven yeah the actor but the actor was he's nine now so he was eight yeah maybe yeah Frankie my God Just what a performance. I know, incredible. It was a dagger to the heart.

That's what I texted the group last night. But I was wondering, the whole time, anytime anything's happening in this season with you as a father, I'm just thinking, like, as a parent now, I'm thinking of you as a parent. Like, what is it like for you to film a scene like this? Like how easy or difficult is it for you to, like, get into that headspace? So, yeah, that's the funny thing.

Because here's the thing, my whole working understanding with Joe and someone like Joe is that, you know, I think to feel love in a way that really gets you. I think you have to have parts of you that are accessible that someone like him doesn't have accessible. So actually I think love, even for his son, is totally performative. That's what I understand. That's what I've thought about Joe. So there's a lot of times actually where I never quite know how it's going to hit.

know if I'm going to have an easy time becoming emotional or not because for Joe I actually think it's like he doesn't really feel these things. He doesn't actually you know what I mean? He doesn't really... And there are parts definitely throughout

the season, throughout this episode, or this season where I'm like, how could he love this child? You know, he's like dropping in, he's playing a game with him, he's doing whatever, like how could he actually love him? But in this scene, I did feel like... But he loves... He does love his sense of self

in relation to being a good person. Like, he thinks of himself as a good person. So this would shatter that. Yes, it would. So I think he would have a real emotion. Right. And so that's what... But if anything, I think the emotion

that starts coming out more is anger, you know? It's like... That's where, to me, where Joe makes the most sense. When he's really, really vulnerable, he starts to me to fall apart as a coherent figure. And sometimes I feel like... I really nail it there and sometimes I'm like, well, he feels flat to me. So I'm giving it a flatness that it's just like he's performing this.

It's not, you know, it's not real. But so this is where I think he's like he has a moment. He starts to shatter and maybe have the vulnerability where he's realizing. But look, like it turns to anger. He starts to scream and say, why does this always happen to me? And then the wall's gone back up. And then what does he do but begin to fight? I'm the victim.

Well, I mean, it's true of a lot of, you know, sort of narcissists and sociopaths, right? That he has this image of himself, like you said, as a great father. And that is more, when that's shattered, that hurts him more than thinking about little Frankie being so heartbroken. You know what I mean? That's the sort of the difference for a guy like Joe. And, you know, that makes me wonder if, like, would the Joe in the book then be like, that little shit? he would like have the moment but then he'd be like even he has been he's been poisoned by his mother you know what i mean like like a lot of men like joe that's that's where he would go he's been poisoned by

his mother and now he's going to turn against him as well right he might not abuse him physically fully because he also can't he's he's out of reach but like you know to me that's where um joe is his hardest when he's somehow theoretically i guess being authentically vulnerable and upset because I just don't know that he could actually go there you know so I'm so that's that's that's throughout the entire series where I was always like it was a balancing act for me Lee it was also just just wanted to give you kudos it's amazing all the emotions that like Joe's emotion

Henry's emotion Bronte's emotion and Will's emotion like how it's all captured in that moment it's just so beautifully woven together it's really powerful Bronte her face you almost feel like okay is this enough for her like his son having this reaction to him is that enough for her that's what I thought and something that's something that

Maddie and I talked a lot, not a lot about, but there was a key moment where Madeline came to me, like, asking a question. And it was one of these things where it's like, because we still never have enough time, it feels like, and, you know, you feel like you're wanting to deliver so much. And there was a moment where it's like, I think we were just really rushed, and she was just sort of like, again, I don't remember exactly how she asked it, but she was asking this clarifying question that was based on her instincts,

and I just confirmed it for her. was like she still loves him certainly part of her still loves him and and so even though aspects of the scene were asking her to turn away from that and say things that are like no I'm on to you it it's hard for her because she's like but I actually still love him and I was like yeah I think look right wrong good bad I don't know but but this is what I always do with Joe like when in doubt mean it don't play all the levels don't play all the levels of

deceit conceit you know like just mean it because then it's more interesting yeah and Maddie's I gotta say incredible on this I mean this is so much heavy lifting and I remember we started on your side pen

and really kind of rang you out because it was just so much you know just an unraveling of Joe Goldberg like five Cs We shot the whole sequence all in one stretch, I think, right? Yeah, and it's like a very long sequence. And then I was like, oh man, poor Maddie, you know, we're going to finally turn around. And she just, like, the pro that she has just turned it on.

Totally, yeah. Fucking Bronte. This is the first time you see him with a hand. This is the first time you see him with a hand. Abuse a woman. I think that's true. Because he does the rock with Peach. right but that's you know that's one of those things where it's like real real real sort of like

feathered and everybody's like yeah fuck her i didn't like her anyway yeah this is like where you see him with his hand strangle and beat a woman and that was it's visceral it's awful even as i say it it's like it feels but like that was so important yeah to show it's like guys this is what he has been The true full monster We see it with Kate a little bit in the in the cage Sort of in that down there's getting there He's getting there like that fight scene is the most physical We've seen him with a woman

That was that's right so that's so that this is more This is true But it's with a tool Yeah I guess maybe that's like the thing It's like he's using this tool It's something between It's in an environment where again it's not the bedroom

It's like now it seems like he's a sexual predator Right here Yeah Yeah this is definitely the most sort of at least of this season and maybe of the series the most sort of primal you know just and and going back to tony our amazing stunt coordinator he he choreographed this fight with with his team and showed it to us and we wanted it to be as messy and nasty and yeah primal as it could be and i think you guys were great because you i mean there's a few shots where we

use doubles but you and mattie really got in there and wanted to do it which is always makes such huge difference. Yeah, it was really striking. I mean, the device of the light coming in and out, making it feel like you're actually in the fight, you know, like you're tussling, you don't know what is happening, what's going on. I just don't feel like I'll ever forget that shot. I thought it was so good.

Well, thank you. We had to kind of, you know, it was a bit of a battle because like it was a, obviously again, we fought to build it on stage primarily to be able to do something because you can't get that shot on location. And then we even had Adam our amazing productions and had cut a whole. in the roof that we can then lift up the ceiling piece so that we get a little jib arm up high enough to see it all. And yeah, it's a nice sort of like,

meditative is the wrong word, but sort of in the, you know, you've got this a lot of kinetic handheld coverage, and then you're just going to cut to this locked off piece of seeing all the geography. And for me, it was sort of like remembering that they're just out in this house in the woods and nobody can hear her scream,

And we're just going to watch this unfold in real time in sort of painful real time. How do you come up with an idea like that? I don't know if you can share that. Well, I mean, in the script, it, Michael and Neil had written this thing like, you know, we're just seeing little snapshots of it. That's right. But didn't write. Because they didn't want it to be too, even though like the severity of what I said earlier,

like we need to see him finally do this thing in the way that he's done it and the way that we've not seen him do it like be an abuser, be really like awful at the kind of highest level. They also didn't want it to be too much of that. So the way that they had written the scene was like

it was unclear. I remember reading it thinking like this is the right thing but it is hard to imagine. How is it going to be just pieces of this messy fight? How are we going to go into a sequence that somehow like you don't quite know what's going on you're not seeing the whole thing continuously so well so yeah and I and I was sort of like

how are we going to render what's on the page because it sounds pretty on the page but then how do you do like little snapshots of it I mean it can be an editorial choice but so at one point I pitched well he tackles or the gun's going to go off can it knock out a light and it's moving so you have this sort of you know they're falling in and out of the light right which we've seen versions of before I mean my fear with it and I hope I hope people don't feel this way is that I didn't want it to suddenly feel like a bad old Western was like you know and the you know that kind

of thing and and so I'm glad it worked but it enabled us to get this sort of almost you know abstract moments of the fight without feeling like we're cutting around to sort of shape it because again to your point pan I wanted it to feel

real time I wanted it to feel we're not going to cut away and shy away from how gruesome he is and how monstrous Do you know what I mean? And I think, so to do that, I was like, I need something that feels like I can shoot this from beginning to end and not shave the edges off with an editorial trick

that makes it feel more like you're in a scene from a TV versus just like looking in a more clinical way of how, like, nasty and horrific Joe Goldberg is, if that makes sense. So good. Yeah. Onward. Stick around. We'll be right back. all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit of an aged thing to say now that that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to 10 and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh

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Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com slash podcrush and start learning today. It was always going to end this way, wasn't it? No, no, it didn't have to. But you're ungrateful. You're spiteful. I made you special. Ronsei and you're too selfish to know how good you've had it. There it is. There it is. That's the real you. You pathetic misogynist. You want to know how I killed Beck?

I'll show you. No. No. Okay, last night I watched this And I was live texting our Pod Crush group chat Which I'm now on as a member of the team And I took a picture of Penn Like running away from the river

And I was like, I never say this word by the way I'm going to fucking kill you for killing Broadway That's right, yeah, you did drop an F bomb on the text And I was like, whoa I loved it And then the next text is me going Yeah You'll see why

yeah well this i mean again i'll say that about this sequence really till the end of the episode and the end of the series is is for me a lot so much of this and i'm sure it's the same for you it's like you picture it you have every sort of frame pictured perfectly and then it what comes out is sort of like your best you know facsimile of that and it always feels sort of bastardized in many ways and you just want to see compromise after compromise after compromise after what's the David didn't want to cast him just to see yeah I mean this

fucking guy again but no I mean this I'm again because we had the time it really feels like from here to the end of the episode I feel like we for me at least is as close to what was in my head as I feel like I've gotten with with work for better or worse you know what I mean like that it felt for better

it was so good and your line pen of like I'll show yeah that delivery it's so good sorry when I read the script the first time and I got to that moment you want to know how I killed back I'll show you it was just like

oh I mean for me as somebody who's just like came in season one and then was like and good luck to you and I'll see you and seven years later coming back and still like you know thinking about and part of it is like sweet Elizabeth Lail

he's like a literal angel in real life and I'm like no she's alive she's not a literal angel Sorry, sorry, sorry. She's a little angel. She's an angel that walks among us. I was like, I cannot wait to get to this moment.

And I'm like, we have to. And you, yeah, that, your delivery is just better than the best version I can imagine. So, kudos to you. One interesting thing, just like that behind the scenes vibe, the BTS that we know the folks want, the content you need. So this is where we shot for two weeks all nights. It means we're all living nocturnal. and I spent every night in my underwear in the woods in the summer

barefoot every scene to be sweaty bloody exhausted every single scene I had to start I was doing like burpees I have videos of you doing this before we roll

I have I mean by the end of this two and a half weeks however it was just it was so intense everything was so intense and I remember I started like developing this new like kind of laying down meditation practice where I was like because if I didn't I was going to just die You were also on a kind of a

stringent diet as I recall since you had to be naked basically. At that point I was eating plenty of carbs because I was so active. It was the weeks leading up that I was like I didn't want Joe to be super ripped but I was in pandemic father form. I needed to shave I needed to be slightly different. I needed to shave just a few

a few LBs off the old tire. What do you call this? The fat tire. Spare tire. I know it well. The fat. The fat tire. Wait, but walk us.

I know we're a little turning around, but can you just walk us through that sequence a little bit more? Like, how many days did it take? You know, just tell us as much as you can. It was, well, it was actually, it was, wasn't it one week that we were out at the house at night? Not too? It felt like to. It was definitely more than, because just being at the house wasn't also, we were doing more. Daytime stuff.

We did. When all the said and done, that whole sequence definitely took, it at least took nine filming days. So you were staying out there or you were going home? Sometimes you were staying there. Sometimes we'd go home because it shot and even though it all looks beautiful. We were shooting it kind of all over the state at different points in different times for different reasons.

So to answer your question, yeah, one week at that house. So answer your question about this sequence of basically Joe coming out of the house having this you know back and forth with this is how it ends this is how I'm going to kill you

and then tackling her and that you know it's not actually wildly complex but I did board it just so that everybody could see what we're doing and what kind of gear we would need

in this case it was a 50 foot techno to kind of like pull them through a lot of that real estate and yeah I mean for me what i remember was we came in at like 7 p.m it was still very light out we had like a full two hours to really block that and rehearse it right and then as it's getting dark we send you guys away to hair makeup we start to light and then you guys come back it's now dark and we just roll and we just i think shot for yeah i don't know seven hours until the sun was coming up and

said good night how do you keep doing the water scenes like them jumping into the water yeah these We did little pieces every night and a lot of it was your doubles as I recall right? The tackle into the water was the doubles. Yeah, they wouldn't let us do that. Because also the water by the way, so I did get in the water for the final bit. I had to be fully submerged but the water was like

Laced with eco-lides So they did test it beforehand and they said it was they said it was like they said it was manageable. Yeah manageable but like what we all had to do when we got in we had to put in every orifice, I'm not kidding wax. So ears knows, others.

And I remember right before I had to do this, I'm putting on, putting on like the tightest speedo that was made of this really, really thick. It's like, because you don't want the bits being exposed to it. And I'm like, I'm getting in here naked. You were exposed to the geese shit? Is this the rancet thing?

Yes, yes, yes. Because it was like a small, small man-made little pond. And guys, the grass was covered in goose it. Like all the grass everywhere, everybody could feel it. And so there were like four of us, I think, who ended up having to get in that water. And we all had to, like, cover every orifice, seal it with, like, this waxed pomade. Wow. And in noses.

And then right after when we got out, we had to, like, spray our mouths and nose and ears with an antiseptic. I forget what it was. Wow. Yeah. And I was just like, oh, okay, cool. I think the other thing is, because I remember seeing all the water testing from safety. and it was not like something you'd want to go and swim some laps in, but a lot of this is out of an abundance of caution.

Granted, I was sitting up on the shore with a cappuccino in my hands. Get in the water. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. I'm saying all this not because it was dangerous at all, but because it was just gross. Yeah, it was for sure. A thousand percent.

Yeah. A thousand percent. I would never ask you to do something I wouldn't do myself. I didn't get in the water for the record Have you put wax in your rectum? No I think that's why we're wondering

I remember I have not done that I have not done that I remember later that night you telling me that Tony what did he came up to you and he's like I'm only going to ask you this once

and never again I need you to put this in your rectum and I said Tony that's not a question Oh, my God. All right, next clip. You get to be the one who kills me, Bronte.

This is how our story ends. My name is Louise. No, I'm done. I am done, Joe. And I have been asking myself over and over. Why? And I finally, I see it clearly now. The fantasy of a man like you is how we cope with the reality of a man like you.

Okay, so first of all, bars, preach, sis, that's it. That's the thesis of the show. Against all odds, we delivered it. We had an answer that was worth giving. And I think that's all the writers right there. Yeah. That's, you know, that's great. That's great.

So case closed. Joe is done. But what I also want to bring to attention here is like at this point, again, I think she's more compelling. She becomes powerful in understanding this and saying it to him. And he, what does he do then? He's like a lizard. He's like, yeah. Yeah, it malfunctions.

It's like, fuck you, bro. You're done. That's not interesting. I don't care about your emotions here. You don't have them. You don't have them in a way that is valid. It's like, no, you're done. You're done.

You're cooked. And this is to me where, you know, the climax actually is not for Joe. Because even, like, yeah, I don't know. To me, this scene is where it's given, it's truly given to Bronte. Yeah. Yep. And that's great. Nothing else to say, really.

I think we're done. I've all said. Preach. So we have like a trick ending. have this beautiful montage, this Elton John song that you wanted. Do we want to focus it all on the twig and the beans getting shot off?

Is that a thing? That was a very, I think, a hotly debated thing. And I was sort of, I'd been sort of asked by the powers that be to sort of shoot it in a way where it could suggest that, but also not be to point. And which, by the way, I agreed with

that kind of philosophy of like, we want to have it, but we don't want it to be unintentionally comedic. It's okay for it to be slightly comedic a few beats later in this sort of wrap up post-mortem. But in this moment, we want it to be holy fuck, she just shot

Joe Goldberg and finally put him, you know, put this to an end, right? So sort of balancing those two things. And again, big sort of kudos to both Maddie and Penn for a long night under rain towers with not a lot of clothing. Even though it was summer

just very uncomfortable. And this area we were shooting and turned I don't know how it managed it was cold and then of course it was like the area we were shooting just turned into like a giant mud pit I want to say somehow guys again I spent so many nights with

only underwear on I didn't get one bug bite wow that doesn't mean how is that possible in summer no bug spray New York summer Penn I feel like you would have loved them making Joe a eunuch

how did you feel about that no I did I did to me thought the only debate was, was it the twig or the beans? Not all we going to include it, but which part is gone? According to Cardi B, it's the twig. By the way, the Cardi joke was in my cut

and then somebody was like, oh, is it too sticky and it like came out? And I remember calling Michael, I'm like, that is so fucking, first of all, big Cardi B fan, obviously. Love that she loves the show. But also, that joke just crushed for me.

And I was like, that has to be. to be in. Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's good. I didn't quite grasp that, but I'm glad. I'm glad. So, but either way,

you know, here's what we know it doesn't mean. He can't come back for another season, another, another like somehow, never, never say never. No, but nobody. But this is the thing.

Nobody wants to see a dickless Joe. And that is the sort of, you know, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the epilogue, the,

the, that's the, so, so, so, so, so, So the crowning thesis is the way we cope with the reality of a man like you is a fantasy of a man like you, or however it was better said and delivered. But then the sort of like subtitle is nobody wants a dickless Joe. And that's the thing. It's like he, again, that's why he wasn't taken apart in the cage. He was taken apart in the bedroom.

He wasn't seized when he was like, you know, looking like the bookstore manager. He was seized when he was looking like a romantic icon. You know, and then what did we do, but take away, not his hands, which have murdered, but... His most powerful weapon. Whoa. No, but it's like, yeah, it's just, it's, it really, it was so important. It was so important. So there's like a double ending.

There's this beautiful, you know, Madeline, sorry, Bronte is narrating. We see how it goes for all of the characters. that we care about. We get to flash it back. We get back one more time. But there's a real ending. Can you tell us about that? We heard that you shot in a real prison.

Yeah, so I mean, I think part of it obviously is that we want to take Bronte out and sort of see that her journey is she's going to be okay and she did so much good for so many people in Joe's orbit, right? But of course, this ultimately is Joe Goldberg's show. And so we had to end with Joe. the thing you're talking about now is we of course end the show with him in a prison cell which i thought was a suit you know perfect ending there was a lot of debate about can we get to a real prison which is what i wanted to do and even with our really luxurious schedule it was just proving

very difficult to get to a prison and there's obviously shooting in new york is very restrictive and and so i fought for literally months and we finally agreed on this hybrid where we took a tiny unit literally about 10 of us went to a prison in upstate New York shot two long pieces in a hallway and then there's little sort of cuts as we move along the hallway and we're sort of getting to Joe and then the third or the second cut

the third shot is now on stage for prisons prison the cell itself they couldn't put me a twink in a real prison they're like we can't get Penn Badgley within 300 meters of a prison So you never went. You'll be done. It's too dangerous.

Think. Somebody think. I know. There was Dan Humphrey's posters on the walls of this prison everywhere. And we just thought we can't expose them like this. But again, we this was, and we also, Penn and I both fought pretty hard to make sure this was the last thing we shot. So this is the very last day. It was the only thing we shot that day.

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so in the end my punishment is even worse than I imagined the loneliness oh my God the loneliness

No hope of being held, knowing this is forever. It's unfair. Putting all of this on me. Are we all just products of our environment? Hurt people, hurt people. I never stood a chance. Goldberg! Ah, yes.

Another fan. Why am I in a cage when these crazies write me all the depraved things they want me to do to them? Maybe we have a problem as a society. Maybe we should fix what's broken in us. Maybe the problem isn't me Maybe It's you I'm a crazy

I feel like that was also perfect For the way that you've played Joe Goldberg The way that you've talked about Joe Goldberg Like the ending was a perfect pen ending too Yeah it was They just took our tweets Yeah, yeah

It was just fan tweets next to mine It's what it seemed like It's like can you write this? Shave his head like Dan Humphrey This thing is this thing is done It was meta Here's the other thing And it literally just hit me as we were watching it

Is because when we shot this episode obviously The, and I'm sorry for Davey Franco guy Louis Mangione Oh right That hadn't happened And I actually sent you a text message When that unfolded

a picture of him being like, this is perfect inspo. And I said, too soon, bro. Too soon. But the letter he's reading in this sort of like the fandom, and you hear about that with everybody from the Charles Manson's of the world across the board is like the fan letter. And they get married to one of the fans. It's a real phenomenon.

And how that sort of ties into maybe it's you and this sort of meta of like, I mean, look, I remember mostly first season how many women were sort of like I want Joe Goldberg to stock me basically some version of that and you were very as I remember it very sort of vocal about like no no no this is not a guy to admire and revere and pine after

it's not we're gonna bell but anyway I just I mean for me that this the is it Louis Mangioio Luigi excuse me it's a me surely there must be sure there must be some memes right

was been made. Yeah. With the white gloves. I'm so sorry. Luigi. I mean, it is a perfect parallel. I mean, Luigi is hot. Yeah.

It is. Maybe it was warranted. All right. Well, Lee, thank you. Guys, thank you for having me back. This has been so much fun. This does feel. like now really the end

of the you journey we're never going to speak again knowing how bad you are on the phone probably not no thank you guys so much for having me I love being a part of the show this is still the show that I'm the most proud of and it was such a joy to talk about it

so thank you guys for the time thank you thank you for your time bye that's a wrap pod crush is hosted by Penn Badgley Navacavalin and Sophie Ansari Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at Lamanada.

And as always, you can listen to Pod Crush ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.