Podcrushed - YOU Roundtable: The Women of Season 5

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

[SPOILERS AHEAD] In this series finale actors roundtable (I’m not crying, you’re crying!), the incredible women of YOU come together for a conversation to discuss that epic finale, intuition and erasure, and how they worked together to seal Joe’s fate. Featuring Madeline Brewer, Tati Gabrielle, Amy-Leigh Hickman, Charlotte Ritchie, and Anna Camp. [Watch the episode on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/qAr3KFeejO4]   Massive thank you to DNS Productions Inc for shooting & editing this! Director / Supervising Producer: Daria Scoccimarro Co-Producer / Line Producer: Madia Hill Scott Post Producer / Lead Editor: Owen Donovan Associate Producer / Assistant Editor: Jesse Williams Director of Photography: Charlee Harrison Camera Operator: Dylan Endike Camera Operator: Stacy Mize Gaffer: Graeme Dempsey Key Grip: Chris Angarone Production Designer: Denise Pascal Sound Mixer: Sergio Reyes-Sheehan Sound Mixer Assistant: Chris Barone Sound Mixer Assistant: Dylan Andrew Lappin Production Assistant - Set PA: Madison Collins Production Assistant - Set PA: Jay Hernandez    Preorder our new book, Crushmore, here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/book...   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Want more from Podcrushed? Follow our social channels here: Insta: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedInsta TikTok: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTikTok X: https://bit.ly/PodcrushedTwitter You can follow Penn, Sophie and Nava here: Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pennbadgley/  https://www.instagram.com/scribbledby...  https://www.instagram.com/nnnava/ Tik Tok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@iampennbadgley  https://www.tiktok.com/@scribbledbysophie https://www.tiktok.com/@nkavelinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada Welcome to a very, very special episode of Pod Crush I'm joined by my co-hosts Navajavon and Sophie Ansari and these lovely women I am not going to host today. I'm a participant hands off the wheel.

Yes. Welcome to. You can actually just leave. Just kidding me now. If you want to, it's very good. No, just a warm welcome to most of the women of you for this final season. We are about to, just for our viewers at home, we're about to get into some major spoilers. We are about to spoil everything for you.

So this is your chance right now. If you want to click off, go watch the season, come back, and enjoy everything that we're going to divulge. Three, two, one. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava and I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties plotting the takedown of our exes. They had it coming.

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Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast or watch us on YouTube. There are two things that unite all of the women who are here today. You are all the women who got away from Joe Goldberg, but you are also all the women who brought Joe Goldberg down. So congratulations to you. And we want to kick things off with a question that's open to all of you. Well, half of Anna. We're going to be talking The better half some would say

So we want to We're actually going to jump right to the end We want to know from each of you Do you feel like Joe got the ending that he deserved? We don't want to know that from you yet, Penn But from all the ladies here Do you feel like Joe got the ending that he deserved? I do

I couldn't say that firmly I think he got the ending that he deserved I don't think that there could have been a more fit final moment for him not just in that like he's in a cage he doesn't have access to women anymore

but that he still won't admit what he's done and that it's like he is at fault I think it was like right through to the very end he is this character

he is it's consistent and I think he gets what he deserves I think whatever the outcome would have been everyone would have been like there was

would have been like a, like another opinion on it. So I think, yeah, because he has to live with it, you know. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, no, I definitely think that him, like, I know a lot of people wanted him to die. Like, but I don't, yeah, it's like that dying in itself is an escape. It would, like, it doesn't allow one to suffer properly the way that he should. So, yeah.

Is he done though? I mean, oh my gosh. Come on. I'm saying he gets the fan letter, right? Is he done? But is he going to learn something? Is he going to change? But he was done.

Okay, I'm just asking. I'm just throwing it out there and there you go. I wouldn't have minded maybe a bit of redemption, some kind of realization. I agree. I think it's fitting that he didn't because he wouldn't realize what he's done. But part of me feels so frustrated that he finds a new channel in blaming the writers or the viewers and just some sense that there is

a possible redemption for somebody like that that there's a moment where they left with no channel except for to look inwards finally to like look at themselves but it wouldn't have felt right but kind of can you do that with a psychopath right right no humane or empathetic truly empathic person like this is full-blown psychopath

right so it had to be yeah yeah if we're going to try to bring reality to it at some point Joe was an innocent boy And it's like, again, not worried about him now, but like, how could we save more innocent boys? And people, girls, whatever. But I do think, like, there's something unique that a man is capable of becoming. Is something, some kind of unique predator, a man is capable of becoming if all the conditions exist. And then he makes certain choices of certain points, right?

So, like, I'm just wondering about the innocent boys who could be prevented. That's, like, a whole toxic masculinity conversation, too. as like the way we treat boys and condition boys to not be vulnerable to be men and to be strong and powerful and domineering and then you know uh and to have no vulnerabilities and to not explore their emotions and to to not be scared and it's like a whole thing if there were those accommodations and those like not even accommodations but if we were a society who supported Joe Goldberg exists the way that he does, even though he isn't real. Speaking of the way that we treat boys, I think it is hard to escape this world as a woman

without experiencing some of the broader themes from this show, manipulation, gaslighting, toxic relationships, then also like reclaiming power, pushing back. And I'm curious to know, to the extent that you're willing to share, if for any of you, any of those broader themes resonated for you, the actress. for the character that you're playing. Oh, loaded questions. Yeah. Let's go through to pass.

No, no, no, no. Let's talk about it. I mean, for me, it definitely hit home a lot just so even from the beginning. Like, I was in a very abusive relationship at a point in my life. And just a couple years before getting on the show. And so it brought up a lot for me in the course of doing so. or in the course of shooting but it was also

in some ways particularly with with Marianne herself it was also healing in ways like over time and like especially the conversations that she has with love in season three and then with Bronte in this last season like it's

I could hear I was I could hear myself talking to myself and sort of telling the same things or trying to reconcile with some of the like because it's a hard thing of like you know you don't know until you know and you make certain choices and you do have to live with those choices but there's always room to there's always room to grow there's always room to be a different version of yourself um and to not lose faith in oneself and think that just because even if it happens more than once even if it um it can it can it can always be brought back um that that that that that little voice in the

head that that that that girl inside can can still be made happy yeah we went back and watched that scene with love in season three and i started crying it's really powerful thank you yeah thank you i found myself getting very mad at joe i mean i'm always mad at joe like in every season but this season like what i'm just watching him lie to you his wife and and watching that scene where, like, you see her coming down and the massage, you bought the massage. And I just was so angry at this man. And I was so, like, oh, pissed off at just how he can, like, look at somebody in the face and just lie to them. And, like, everything is okay. So that really resonated. We can talk about that later. You know, there was a Vanity Fair article recently.

Maddie, you were interviewed. And you talked. about how, even before the show had come out, there was already some, like, backlash about your character. And I found it really straight. And I think you talked about, like, how people were angry, had anger towards Bronte more towards her than, like, Joe, a mass murderer. And I was thinking about how one of the female leads who didn't get as much heat was love, who was the other mass murderer. And I was like, what is, yeah. Yeah. I think so. So, and I was thinking, like, what is that? Like, what does that tell us about society that people really actively root for like bad people? Like, and I'm just curious if you have thoughts on that. I think there's

something interesting about the playing out of like internal or like darker fantasies. There are sides to us that you don't get, we all have light and shade, right? So then you, I do think there's something about entertainment or this format that means that you can exercise that. And you can kind of root for a person that does things that you know if you met them in real life, you'd think they were horrid, but because they're not real, because they're distant, because you can control your relationship with them, I think it's something about that enjoyment of the transgression. I think we kind of like, I don't know, I'm looking straight at you, I think we kind of like that.

Well, I say we, sorry, I try to speak just for like for myself, but I think I have, I definitely enjoy watching awful characters because there's like, there's a sense of decorum and like reasonable kindness and normal ways of behaving that you, you uphold, but as a human, you have sides that you can kind of lean into that are fantastical. It's so thrilling to watch someone just kind of throw it all the way. Not care and just do it stand and be this, yeah. I mean, it's also probably like a really bad indictment on where we're at, like, as a broader world. But I think Joe goes back to that sort of mental health conversation of like, like, we live in a world that does, that likes to play nice, that we've been taught, like, since like, both girls and boys, it's like, you know, be a good boy, be a good girl.

Like, it's like, that you're never, like, we all have a shadow self and that there's balance is necessary to create a full person. person, but it's like we have, as a society, we've made this odd agreement that like, no, no, everybody's shadows stay in the shadows. And so like because, but like TV and film and stuff has started to bring that out. And, but still we are not like addressing it or allowing freedom for everybody else to like sort of address their shadows and walk in in life in this like full manner. Yeah. You're right. There's like an extremity to it in the media because it's not integrated. And then when you cage an animal like that, then it's just, of course, It's going to, and I think that then goes into why the chaos in the world and why everybody's like raging now because it's, you, you keep a dark thing in a cage for something. It's going to grow. It's going to get bigger. And yeah, it's kind of, yeah. I know that Penn wants to make a joke about the word cage.

No, I can feel it. In this one instance, no. I mean, it's the first time ever. I don't know. Try. I just, he's rubbing off on me because I was like, cage, cage. Well, Penn is the person who has received like almost only love for a character that you famously hate on. What are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on like your female colleagues receiving like some maybe unmerited hate or critique? I'm curious. Oh, sorry, just to say, I don't you've made of it. I feel I was justifying that it's specifically a sexist thing.

Like I would say that was a more broad thing about why. Yeah, yeah, but please Penn, go on. Yeah, I guess that's, yeah, I mean, it's definitely there. I've found in this press run because we're in the middle of a press run the press cycle for the release of the end of the show. I really do I'm finding, like I'm scraping

the bottom of the barrel and trying to find new things to say about him. I mean it's there. I'm having my own personal revelations that are actually quite profound and kind of intimate and maybe in time can share.

But yeah, look, the social thing is of course there. Like, there's a difference in treatment of men and women. Yeah. It's there. He's also the star of the show. So then it's just focusing on the main character, main character energy, right? And then it's like, you know, he looks and acts the way that he does, which is specifically there to make him charming. I mean, he's never been a clinical portrayal of a serial killer. You know what I mean? Never, ever. The show's not about that. It's about love. It's about like the things that we understand about love and don't understand about love. And like, you know, you fall to its conclusion.

Actually, it's closer to possession. That's not love. It's closer to abuse and jealousy and coercion manipulation. So that's what the show's about. He's constructed to be actually impossibly likable. Paco, first season, impossibility, I think. He would sooner abuse that boy than he would. Well, if anything, he was grooming him, you know.

He was grooming him. He gave him a sandwich. In the end, he kept Beck in the cage. He groomed Paco, okay? He's not nice to him. season two Ellie killed her sister

need I say more oh no love killed her but come on he slept with her so to keep even happen so that's where Joe is you know

he's actually like not most dangerous in the box when somebody's in the box Joe is finally transparent about who he is he's the most transparent about who he is

like those plexiglass walls where he's the least transparent and most dangerous is in the bedroom which is why we took his dick

speaking of villains we do get to see a new side of Kate this season in Charlotte. And I'm curious what it, did that change your interactions with Penn, the dynamic between the two of you as actors and what was it like to bring out that new side of Kate? Yeah, I was so grateful to get to kind of broaden her out a bit and kind of, I think she's so guarded and so icy in the fourth series.

We only really get to see her kind of thought a bit when she starts to really fall for joke if she does it and so we see that and it was a real pleasure to get to see her in her kind of element with control and power

and a vision and a sense of like possible redemption and this it was great and she kind of you almost has a sense of humour and it's really great

and I felt that particularly there was a scene where I really get to go at you about everything that you've done and there's something about Kate's ability to see things quite she's quite kind of rational in some ways and there's a kind of icy like intellectual way of not feeling things and just analyzing them but that that scene in particular was really fun

because it changed the power dynamic there was this but also there's a kind of link by this point they kind of know a lot about each other so that was really fun I really enjoyed that I thought yeah such a great scene too oh it's great yeah I loved this new breath that you brought to keep in this season really good I think I yeah I think I also sort of was resisting her quite a lot in the fourth series. Because I felt like I was judging her. I was like, God, I was like, no, get in, get in here. Get in here. So that was fun. Yeah. Love it. Some of my favorite scenes of this past season were the arguments between Joe and Kate. It was something, there was something happening there that hadn't been able to happen yet. It was like maybe the most mature stage of a relationship

that he'd been in. Right. So therefore, there was like, you know, it was like its own version of it was like an evolution of the marriage therapy scenes in season three which i also really enjoyed with love um i love yeah actually so i forget there's one episode episode six where i'm like mostly not in which was phenomenal i just remember because it's like it's like it's all yeah yeah he was in miami um just not getting in the sun can't yet continuity stay pale stay pale stay pale um But the huge argument that we have, you know what I mean? That was like, I really loved. That's quite fun.

Also, it's just great to get, when you've watched the show and you watch him, that I got to like list the things that you've done to your face, and be like, hello. And if we had to respond at length, too, because he often usually doesn't respond. Yeah, yeah, of course. So I was responding. And we're like, we're like really, probably more give and take than I can think of,

save for the final sequence. Yeah. Because so often you all know most of you, it's like you have to sort of like, I'm especially thinking of Marianne in season three, like the trauma that she is just like sharing with Joe, you know what I mean? And that's what he did with Beck, season one.

It's like, let me listen to you just monologue about your trauma. And I'm never going to give anything back. You know, like just, it's just that. And so I really loved these scenes where he's, because with you, with you, he's still trying to like accomplish something with you he's like giving up

and so he's like and so that was for me for all the heaviness that I've often spoke that was not that was like fun because it's just like there's no limit to how confident I can be

about hating this that was fun Kate is pretty complicit and I think in this season we find out that she's complicit in poor Nadia's fate sort of in like like sealing her fate and getting her in jail and stuff.

And so I want to know, do you feel like in the balance of things she achieves redemption or she's still pretty complicit? Oh, great question. And there's a fellow countryman as well. And then I have the same question for you. You know, how do you feel about it? I don't know. I'm not sure how clear cut it can be about like there's no denying that Kate has done terrible

things and she'll have to carry that with her always. I think she manages to she wants to have when we have that scene between the three of us when she decides she's going to be the one that tries to kill him that there's a real sense that she wants this redemption but whether I don't really like I don't know if she she's done it there's nothing she can do about the fact that she's done this to and she had all the intentions to do that I don't know

but you do feel like she's changed I don't know how to answer that only because it's like a really fair question but I just still not worked out my feelings around that like whether she can do a kind of tip for tat like I did this and but now I've done this so am I good am I cleat like I don't know she'll have to hold it all together

don't you have a scene I know that you have a scene at the end with with Lady Phoebe right but then are you two interacting at the end because there's this like sort of thing I'm Kate yeah um no

the last time is when with the gun and then you go back down to And then we just, we made a joke. We were like, where do we go? We go to the same. That's it. Like, yes.

One back. A celebration. How do you feel? Do you think Nadia should forgive Kate? Do you feel like, no. I mean, I lost three years of my life. I mean, she didn't really have a choice, did she? It was Kate or nothing.

It's weird because when the show, I watched the show before and you do get, like you say, get behind the characters that you spoke about in such weird way. And I found it so interesting that when season four came out, how many people were like, she got what she deserved. Glad she's impressed. I thought people really liked you.

I saw people were like Justice for Nadia. I saw a lot of shouldn't have gone snooping, things like that. Oh my God. It's awful. I saved her life. Not me, but you know. And I thought that so I found

I was a lot of, I didn't know that either. I'm kidding. There was a lot of nice things as well. But I did find it interesting because you would think that given the circumstances, there would be none of that. But there were so many things about snooping around. So to have, to come to, I'm really interested to see how people I don't too react. Well, that's just also like a woman trusting her instincts is a bad thing.

Right. It's like that. And also, Joe's whole thing is snooping around. Right. That's like crazy. That is, that lady is real on that. That's wild. It's really how it all changed.

It's because you didn't have that bar cap. If you had that bar cap and you would have that bar cap. It made a sin. And a penis. There you go. And probably. Great. Yeah.

You should have had a penis before you did. Penis and a bar cap. Come on. Can we wait. Thank you. Pieness. But no, I did, I did think. Sorry.

No one wants to say ball cap. I say bar cap and apparently that's not a thing. A hat? A baseball cap. I thought you were saying bald cap. That's why I was so confused. Anna, are you okay? I suppose it's a ball cap.

Like a baseball cap. A hat. I was thinking can we make penis bald caps? I was going to what we're saying now. Did you think Kate should be forgiven? Sorry. I have an idea. No, no.

I love it. Because it's, you know, yes, she helped get her out, but you still put her there. You know, snakes, three years of punishment for what? So I think no, I think no. And I think she just had to go with it because there was no other option. But it was nice to have that moment. And I think that's, I mean, out of us, Lott, I'm the only one that wasn't. a love interest?

No. Yeah. It was technically not even, yeah. No. But, and that case, point is a void. You're still in a minority there. But it was nice to have, like, when we had that moment when Joe was in the box cage, whatever it was, it was, it was nice to have that you guys were coming from a completely

different perspective. Yeah, you're like ironclad in a way. Yeah. Well, in the sense that you weren't ever pursuing a relationship. relationship. Like, Nadia wasn't ever pursuing. You know, you're like, no, I was put in prison. I went to fucking school, guys.

That's what I did. I was pursuing an education. I shouldn't have gone sleeping. That's the crazy thing about people turning on Nadia, which I didn't know. I hadn't seen any of that because Nadia, like every season there's a mentee and that that character, that's the like save the cat. We've had like the showrunners discuss this. And that's the sort of thing that helps the audience root for Joe, right?

It's like, but in season. before he imprisons that character and blames her for a murder shooting commitment. And then we see Joe from Marianne's perspective from the first time. And it's the first time that we see Joe without like the artifice of like, what's that word charm? There's no charm when we see him from that perspective. So I feel like that should be the season where everyone stops rooting for him. And it's amazing.

Like the writers lift the veil and they show us the monster fully. And it's amazing that we don't stop rooting for him. But it's good because we see Joe be so charming. and I think when people have asked me this before I'm like that's why it's so important to know that like you know it's not as obvious when people bad people aren't obviously bad people

they are good at what they do and that's why we have you yeah that's why I'm performing a tremendous social service Nadia did you know at the end of season 4 that you were cut your character was coming back Amy Amy sorry Amy

Did you notice that I got to you now? Did you say that? No. You're face didn't change. No, Amy, did you know that Nadia was coming back at the end of season? No, I knew, I really thought that I was just, like in season four, I thought that I was just going to be, come in and do scenes with you in the university and not be on the side of anything.

So I found out, like, watching an episode, essentially, like, and then in, I think when everything was going on with, like, Marianne and Nadia, I thought, I'm going to be dead at 10. So I was sort of waiting for that scene where I was going to be killed. And then when I went to prison, I kind of hoped, but I didn't think because I knew that they were going to do something completely different to take it back to New York. So, no, I was pleasantly surprised, yeah. Stick around. We'll be right back. all right so um let's just let's just let's just real talk as they say for a second that's a little bit

of an aged thing to say now that that dates me doesn't it um but no real talk uh how important is your health to you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it it's sick. When you have responsibilities, I know myself, I'm a householder, I have two children and two more on the way, a spouse, a pet, you know, a job sometimes has its demands. So I really want to feel like when I'm not getting the sleep and I'm not getting nutrition, when my eating's down, I want to know that I'm being held down some other way physically. You know, my family holds me down emotionally, spiritually, but I need something to hold me down physically, right? And so honestly,

I turned to symbiotica, these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious. And I'm telling you, even before I started doing ads for these guys, it was a product that I really, really liked and enjoyed and could see the differences with. The three that I use, I use the, what is it called, liposomal vitamin C, and it tastes delicious, like really, really good. Comes out in the packet, you put it right in your mouth. Some people don't do that. I do it. taste great. I use the liposomal glutathione as well in the morning. Really good for gut health and although I don't need it, you know, anti-aging. And then I also use the magnesium L3 and 8, which is really good for, I think, mood and stress. I sometimes use it in the morning, sometimes

use it at night. All three of these things taste incredible. Honestly, you don't even need to mix it with water. And yeah, I just couldn't recommend them highly enough. Do you want to try them out? Go to symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. That's symbiotica.com slash podcrushed for 20% off plus free shipping. The first few weeks of school are in the books, and now's the time to keep that momentum going. I-XL helps kids stay confident and ahead of the curve. I-XL is an award-winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning. Whether they're brushing up on math or diving into social studies, it covers math, language arts, science,

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Yeah, it was. Right? And that is what Nava just mentioned where like it's the first episode, I think in the whole entire show where we see Joe, but we don't get his inner monologue. Like we're hearing Marianne's inner monologue.

And so we see Joe for like how vile he really is. And I feel like it wasn't until, for me at least, It wasn't until that moment where I actually felt that way. Like, I really embarrassingly, I represent, like, I represent the girls on the internet, okay? I think also because I know pen in real life, like, it's hard for me, honestly, to really be fully against Joe until that moment. And then when we see him without hearing him, his manipulation, then I'm like, oh, shoot, he is a monster. And the way you're telling it, the way it's written, where you're telling the fairy tale to your daughter, I mean, it's,

gorgeous um what was my question about that i think i just wanted to give you your flowers i'm like it's made me obsessed with you but no but funny enough like i had this date because it's like i i think for half the time not i didn't wasn't ever rooting for joe i guess in my watching the show but just was like why am i charmed by this person um and then i wasn't rooting for him but like for me actually too even being in like and i think it also did had to do with the fact that during the shooting of season four like i didn't get to interact with you as much either. So then my hatred for Joe grew significant because I couldn't have the love of Penn. So it was like and then even days on set like I remember like being scared

by like I remember sitting that that first scene I think in episode eight when we're sitting at the table and like Joe's like watching the video of Reese and like and feeling this like super disconnect from you like like as like both like as the act like Bravo by the way like that was. really scary um but like it made me like from that point on and then even like watching this season like I was like from the jump I was like fuck this guy like why are we even fuck this guy like yeah so yeah we did talk about this a little bit but in in season three love and marian have this really incredible moment where we think love is going to kill marian she's ready to kill marian and then they actually have this conversation where Marianne says something really, you know,

meaningful and tells her to sort of go back to herself. And then you kind of pay that forward with Bronte and that conversation with Bronte is really what seals Joe's fate. And so I'm curious how you felt about the decision for the character Marianne who got away from Joe in kind of like the most epic way to come back into the dangerous fold. How did you feel about that? Um, I, I guess not scared. No, not scared because I did always like hope that Marianne could for her own self and her own ability for closure and moving on that she could have some part in

taking him down or seeing her own justice because justice in her life is, is something that is very important to her that she never received for herself. So to have her own, her own hands in taking that justice back, like I was actually really excited to be able to do that um uh and then particularly too with like i liked in the way of like when we have that scene between the three of us and like kate is like you didn't stop her and i was like what was i supposed to fucking restrain her like i like that like that marion just had a conversation fronte and like it just was like we to give us the power to not be him to not have to like use physical force that like we have our own uh

as women that we have our own I don't know the words that I want to or just like this this energy this power that we just that the world tries to make us forget that men can try to make us forget that we can just that it just takes one little instance to bring it back um so yeah I was I really I really loved that episode in the way that like and especially even being so angry and she could have taken the anger that she just had for Joe in that moment to Bronte and then like what are you doing um but instead she was was like no like it was almost like this is what I would have wanted to hear um it said to have brought me out before it got to the points that it got for me um so yeah can i so sorry

well no go ahead thank you there's this so it's so beautiful the way you do that and that there's something i think really particularly important which i guess you start to learn as you get older which is marianna's not trying to control bronte and what she feels she's just sharing her own and that is enough that that exactly that's what's so beautiful she's not saying do this don't do that she's having her arrive at it herself yeah and it's that's really I think that's beautiful

that's that was what I want to underscore is like when you were trying to find the word you said the charm or you know maybe it's a power what you're actually describing is power and it's empowering and to empower someone is way more powerful than to coerce them exactly and so just let's talk about some social dynamics

right here this actually is about, like, for a moment, it's about, yeah, no idea. It's what I'm saying. Let me say it like this. In this one sense, this is about power dynamics because mutual empowers, if you give power to, that's not, you don't need to take that power away from somebody. Like, the sort of power that is only valuable when you have to, when someone else doesn't have it, is not very powerful.

But that is the power that we currently believe, it's a very... I hate to say masculine because masculinity, I don't want to actually paint as bad, as inherently bad, not at all. Like, it's sad that actually maybe men believe, and the world responds to most, this notion of power that is dominant and coercive, and it isn't mutually empowering. But the sort of power, if it's feminine, I don't know, I think it's broader than that, but the sort of power that you can give to somebody while having, while keeping every, bit of your own. That's just logically, mathematically, that's more power. So actually what you're saying, like, you know, it's funny, I just wanted to underscore that you were struggling to find a moment, find the word for a moment and, and sort of skate it over that it's power. But like, no, that's powerful. Some of the most powerful moments are moments where it's like, yeah, I'm not

trying to control you. I don't need to control you. I can't control you. So what I'm going to do is share. And if that's empowering, great. Then we both have it. You know, and that's just, it's also, it's just, it's just, it's just so much more powerful. So, yeah, we've, we've, we've, so yeah, anyway, we'll cut that, we'll cut that one down. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Bronte and Marianne have this really meaningful scene together in Mooneys. I want the two of you to take us into that experience. What was it like filming that? Tell us more about it. I was great to shoot. I was so,

I was so excited to work with you. Was that the first time you guys were working together? First time we worked together, we'd like not bring each other and been around each other a few times. But I mean, it's a pivotal moment, at least in Bronte's journey.

As you said, it like sets up the entire finale, sets up Joe's fate. And I love that scene so much for what you just said about, about kind of giving power, not giving power, but empowering. And it could only come from someone who truly understood what Bronte was experiencing. Because, and I think what's common about, I mean, maybe Nadia doesn't forgive Kate, but maybe opens the door to her because she knows this man and knows what she might have experienced with him. him. Do you know? It's like unless if you know, you know kind of situation when it comes to Joe Goldberg. But I think for Bronte, it was so easy to write off Kate's warnings. It was so

easy to say that woman is a jealous ex-wife and I'm the mistress and she's going to say anything she can to make me turn away. Just so many reasons why. I mean, Bronte makes the same excuse, like for Kate, for, God, what is Natasha's character's name? Dominek for Clayton is like there, they don't get it. They don't know what I've experienced. And then this woman that I thought was a ghost, like I walk into Moody's and I'm like, there's a ghost standing there. Um, because Bronte has been like studying you, studying you and, and knows who you are, presumes you to be dead. And then you stand there and you just list everything. Like, every experience. Every thought Bronte's had herself, but maybe wouldn't dare herself to, to let it, like, come out.

And only someone who has experienced what Bronte has also experienced can do that, could show her, this is not going to end the way you think it's going to end. And especially highlighting the way he makes you feel. And what you think, oh, God, the one about the other women, about like, that happens to stupid women. that doesn't happen to us and it's so easy to fall into that that like that's something that happens to other people it's the same thing with like you know with anything you never think it's going to happen to you but you also think you're smarter and you're more savvy than that and um i never let a man do that to me um but it's in the end yeah um it's so it's 180 for bronte

at that point because of what you allow her to find it herself just through your own experience Well, and I think, like, it's really, it was really interesting, too, because, like, through it, like, Marianne uses all you statements. She is, like, technically, in the same way, it's just, yeah, like, saying, yeah, you, you, you sort of pointing the finger in the same way that, like, I guess Kate has done it, that, that Dominique has, like, of, but it's gentle. And it's, like, though using these you statements, she's expressing from her own experience. Yeah. One, and it's like, and two, dang it, don't lose the thought. ADHD. Uh, darn it, it's gone.

Um, but basically just like the fact that like, uh, it's, it's just more welcoming because it, that, there it is. In reality, like, to Bronte, if Marianne had come using those use statements, using the same way of coming at, because you could, in the same way Marianne could be coming from the same place as Kate from this angry, like he put me in a fucking box and trying to kill me. Like it's like she has every right to also be angry, too also be hateful to also. but it's like somehow still she I guess it's more so she's speaking to the empathy that they both have shared for Joe even in the his monstrosity

I think it's like you acknowledge like the good parts of him the parts that you fall in love with whereas everyone else is like he's a murderer he's a murderer you're insane and it's like you don't get it you don't get it and you acknowledge that there are there are parts of him that make you fall in love that you become attracted to

and you can't blame yourself for that that's all part of it though and yeah yeah yeah great scene lots of fine I was too

I was weeping in that scene and he was just so beautiful and you were like truly felt like it came from the heart and it was God it was yeah thank you thank you you know it was really a pleasure to do that with you

yeah like even from the the jump that coming in the door like I was like it was a very interesting energy because like I don't think that Marian had ever I don't know experienced much of Joe's world too before that or any any other no that's not sure she did leave me love but not extensively only in that one little moment but it's like to to to meet the like oh this is the and I think to Marianne I guess even seeing parts of herself in Bronte of like already off rip of like just energetically um they're two of the most similar characters i think because they're both very like mistress energy you know like keeping keeping them in not a literal box but the figurative box you love these boxes i show's about that's beautiful Anna yes we've got to come to you

your character kind of stumbles her way into sealing joe's fate she um You know, she lights that fire. She lights this kind of iconic fire. And I'm curious, sort of before we get to that moment, she murders her twin. She intends on murdering Joe doesn't quite accomplish it. So I'm curious for you, like, in the end, do you think Maddie is the bad twin? Great question. And sort of like, what is your thought on Maddie?

Oh, my God. No way. She's like coming from a place of pure love, honey. Like, no, really, I don't think so. I loved her so much. I mean, I think that she obviously will do whatever it takes to get what she wants,

but ultimately, well, wait a minute. She killed her sister, but her sister, I mean, he makes up the best point when he's trying to convince me to kill my twin. He says, do you think that she would hesitate for a moment if I asked Reagan to kill you? So ultimately, I think she's saving

herself because I think Reagan wouldn't think twice about it and would just be like done can you put on your Reagan hat for a second and like do you think that there's that you yeah um yes do you sorry ball cap ball cap thank you I can't understand you if you don't say put on your Reagan ball cap got it do you do you think there's a girl is there a penis on gorgeous it's kidding nuts again and then let's back here okay go Do you think there's a world where she would save her sister? I'm forgetting what was the ultimatum, like you both die or one of you?

You said if you don't kill Reagan, you both of you will die. That's what you said. I remember that. That's a tough one. I was there. It's on camera. That's a really tough one. Yeah.

I mean, and I believe, I believe you. Heart goes out to those girls. That's a real tough one. That's a real hard one. All the ultimatums he's giving them. that one's, oh my God. I don't think she's evil, though. But that's like the

Carrie Carrie and Carrie. Sherry and Carrie, they both got out. They found a way to not kill each other. They get the same ultimatum. Maybe ultimately Maddie wanted to kill her. You're impatient. I mean, I think that scene that I finally, you know,

I got to act with like the best scene partner myself. I'm just kidding. No, she needs a little work. No, but I finally got to that. scene though just how horrible Reagan was making her feel yeah it's just like maybe she couldn't wait for a reason to kill her you know and she was just looking for that and there happened and so yeah I don't know who's evil I don't know who's more evil now it's a great question you filmed with real fire is that right yes yes what was it like were you

hot it was so cold um no it was really cool I had just actually just worked with fire before. So I was kind of like, oh, okay. And everybody was like really freaking out. And I was like, ah, I just did this, you know, and I just lost one eyebrow. It's fine. No, it was really cool. They like lit the whole aisle, obviously, with like gasoline and they had everybody and all the guys were around, like checking in on me and making sure everything was okay. But I remember Marcos, the director said, don't leave the shot until I tell you to. So I was like, Marcos, I trust you. I really trust. you here and he said, I'm going to yell, leave when I want you to leave. So I lit the match and I

like throw it on the fire and it's raging and it's getting hotter and hotter and hotter. And I just was like, he's going to call it, right? Like he's going to call it. Or is this how I go? Because this is what happens? This is the end. And then I hear him go, leave. And I go boom. But I waited. I did wait. So it was really fun. It's so funny because, you know, Penn was telling us, We interviewed Lee. We watched the finale episode with Lee who directed it. And they were talking about how there are some, like, safety precautions around, like, you. Maddie, you and Penn couldn't, like, be in the water.

And, like, there's all these safety issues. But then there's, like, you could be in front of the fire. With, like, hairspray? Yeah. Air solve it. So just to be clear for a moment, I mean, yes, all that's true and dangerous and she's very brief. Thank you. But we were inside a giant soundstage.

is a, the entire thing is fireproof. And it is, it's highly, highly highly. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not. I'm really proud of myself. Um, we, we, we, so it's not to say that it's like, I understand what you're saying. And what you're, what you're pointing to is like there are weird inconsistencies in this safety standards. Yeah, yeah.

Because they're like, he cannot drive that car. Put him underwater for eight hours. It's right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. That makes sense. Yeah.

Um, so, yeah. There were a lot of fire stuff, though. Like, all the clothes were had like, had, had, had, be covered in like fire retardant. Oh, right. They were stiff. I was wearing like a very stiff version of my outfit. So, to be clear, so for two entire episodes, because it had to match what we were all wearing

in the episode prior, we were all wearing specifically fire retardant clothing that had been sprayed so that it's like, it's like, yeah, it was like, yeah. It was like, jeans. Oh, my God, no. So, you know, so, and that's where the, that's where she was fine. They also rebuilt, I was brave. They built two versions. of so moonies they like fully build that library and they built a second one on a fire safe

stage yeah to that's one that was lit on fire i was really happy my improv got in though when i was like dousing the books with um with gasoline with vodka i go goodbye books yes i love that i was wondering if that was you guys i just added it goodbye goodbye books a bit of Anna that it's a little me yeah don't make me laugh Okay. It's amazing. And we'll be right back. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look.

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And I am curious, like, she's meant to trap him, but somehow Joe traps her, and he's not, he doesn't know sort of what the ruse is. And I'm curious here from you, but also all the other women, how do you think Joe keeps pulling this off? How does he keep trapping people? Even when he's not deliberately trying to trap someone who is trying to deliberately trap him. Yeah. He likes the wounded bird, so he plays the wounded bird. like that's that's what he does almost like like it's like like that's how it's kind of how he gets it's kind of how he gets braontages in his writings and things no it's formulaic exactly like yeah he gets

that's how he gets marianne that's how he like I mean love is a different story they were psycho together but like it's how like yeah he he plays the wounded bird and so it's like it's like oh we can be wounded together like it's like and yes we could hear part of that in his in his inner monologue but it's also how he lays himself out in front of the women. Like, he also, like, he, he finds out the very specific thing about them that through his, like, recon and, like, stalking and all of that, all of the other questionable stuff he does. Then I called it recon. Then I called it back.

Through his research. He, he figures out who they are and what very specific way he can kind of warm, his way in there. He, um, I mean, Beck, it's like her friends, her, her family, her ex-boyfriend. Um, love, it's her family. It's her brother. Uh, Marianne, it's her daughter. Her ex. Her ex. Yeah. Kate, it's her family. It's her friends. It's and Bronte's kills all those people, doesn't they? Yeah. Yeah. And so he like builds himself up and finds the one thing and just like gets in there. and becomes who they need just morphs himself, shapes himself into this kind of white knight figure for them.

And the white knight is not right. It's just like. Yeah, well, I mean, it is. That's what they're called. Is that what it's called? So he's, yeah. Yeah, don't you say that? Yeah, let's say you're not a white knight.

Yeah. And so he just changed. Yeah, but I'm a bad bitch. Oh, boy. I can't believe I didn't see them. I wish. I wish. But so he does, he, it's formulaic.

He does it every single time. He does it. It takes a different shape every time, but it's always the same. It's for the same purpose. And then he starts killing the people around the object of his affection at any given season. And under the guise of protecting them or, and the only reason it doesn't really work with Bron. is that she has no past that he can find out about. And she's positioning herself exactly the way she wants him to.

Or like, because she figures out the formula and makes herself into the perfect candidate for Joe. Yeah, I think it's, I really like that this is how. it was brought to a conclusion in the writer's room because in a way she kind of does everything she could have possibly done you know

she kind of checks all the boxes establishes as many safety guards as there can be and I hadn't really funny enough I hadn't quite realized all this hadn't thought about it that deeply in a while but

she does set the perfect trap but that doesn't realize like I'm the trap like she doesn't realize how much she is really putting herself in danger yeah which is to say it's i'm trying to think of the perfect way to put it yet i almost don't have enough perspective but it's like she's not giving enough credit to feelings actually which is that which is the age old thing like it'll never happen to me yeah and i'm smart in that i have all the information i know everything about this guy i've been stalking him for years that's the power of feelings yeah they just can sway anyone

anyone so hard once she allows him to get to know her uh when she speaks about her mom like that is true i mean that's like kind of her fatal flaw is that she does open up to him it's not fatal you know but uh she does open up to him as bronte but with things that are real for louise and when he does what he does and and and creates space hold space for that um because that's all he's doing. He's holding space. Yeah. It puts the walls just for me. He creates that space.

You need space. I'm creating space. If there's no walls, there's no space. But he creates that space for the real Louise. And that's how he gets in to her, to the real side of herself, to the Louise side of herself. And Louise has had a tragic, I mean, losing her mother and having. no other family that we know about and being a caretaker for all these years, a caregiver,

he, there it is, boom, he nails that he gets, he takes care of her, that's which is all she wants and he adapts to fit her. And, um, I find it, I mean, I can't help but look at her this way, but I find it to be like a testament to Louise and to any person who's, who feels that it's their fault when they um find themselves in a situation with a manipulator a gas later an abusive person is that you were accepting love you were allowing what you thought was love into your life and um and you weren't right but that's not your fault yeah yeah can you tell us what went through your mind well there's a couple questions here what went through your mind when you first read the script for the finale which I have to say is epic.

I watched it and live messaged our group. I was like through every moment I was like, you better not kill her. Okay, thank God. She said, fuck you. She said fuck you because she thought he had killed you. And they really don't swear that much.

I was like, Sophie, I'm three hours ahead. And like I don't stop texting. It's not real. Stop texting this number. Yeah, I thought it was epic. I want to know what went through your mind when you read it. And then also, if you both could tell us what it was like to shoot those scenes together, the fight scenes.

And, yeah. I mean, I was stoked. I couldn't wait to get to the end. I think the first time I read it was at our table read. I mean, it was like, so we kind of like read it together and got to experience it. and um you guys remember what I wore at the last table read did you have a bandana on your head

I'm surprised that you don't read because you were like oh you came back from a run running yeah but I forgot and I like had a bandana on like a running shirt and so and you just you just had particularly

you're like oh my god yeah it was just I think there was something about the run that really got to me yeah because we were all waiting we were like where's that I thought that the table read was a half an hour later and it was my lunch break

and so I was like, I'm gonna run which I like did once. It just happened to be that one time in the entire show. Ted Sarandos was visiting that day. Sorry, it was in the middle of your answer. That's okay. I don't have anything interesting to say.

No, that wasn't a joke. I feel like I really don't. It was great. I was super stoked. I knew I had a feeling I didn't tie. I wanted to know Bronte's fate, But I also wanted to, I mean, when we end episode nine, I was really excited to see like, okay, she's going to see this thing through.

Where is this going to end up? And, you know, we get to like the, I mean, reading all the voiceover was just thrilling. Like, it was so exciting, even though like a lot of it isn't in. I mean, I recorded so much. It's not in there. But that's fine. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that.

I mean that, truly. Yeah. Yeah, but shooting it was incredible. I mean, we shot like 18, 16 days over, like, what we usually shot episodes for like nine days. And I don't know why I chose to wear my hair up for that first half. It was a lot. It looked cute. Can you talk about the shoe, like the feet shoes that you were wearing?

Oh, my God, our toes shoes. I know it's not important. Our Vibrum shoes. Before we, if we move on from this too far, so he said, the feet shoes. These guys were having to like run in barefoot. But you weren't barefoot, were you? No. You're wearing, oh, yeah,

how do you have the cat's out of the bag now? Wow. You have to talk about it. Yeah, we were wearing these like flesh-colored, yeah, like toe shoes. To shoes. Which, when you're far enough away, they don't even have to, like,

paint it out in post. They can, it's just sort of, you don't see them. But they're, like, sort of slip on. They're, like, fake toes. You put your toes out. They're like barefoot shoes. Yeah, I see. You're like weird foot shoes.

Like, like, marathon running. Yeah, that's like that. I get, but these ones were like completely matching your skin tone. Yeah, they were. And no, like, it's not like the ones that people wear that, it's their their own thing.

There was, I mean, maybe it's not a huge deal, but I just couldn't take my eyes at that point. You said the photo. I feel like Penn made a big deal on our finale rewatch about running barefoot in the forest. Did you know? And he wasn't. And you didn't say anything about the shoes you love so much.

It was so hard. Yeah, I mean, no, no, a lot of times. I'm so brave. I ran through fire. Yeah. So it was about half and half. I mean, it was like half the time we were barefoot, half the time we were wearing shoes.

Sorry, so not a big deal. I wish I hadn't mentioned the feet shoes. I loved them. I loved them. I was on the way to see her on WikiPee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you going to become a barefoot guy?

Well, no, I mean, my wife wouldn't allow that. I mean, it's just, it's just wouldn't. And I agree with her. Yeah. Like, I'm not going to become up. Less toes? He does. Yes.

So what we did, I mean, this is also the thing. Like, he's meant to have, meant to be missing two toes. So do you remember how we had to wrap two of my toes and green tape? Yeah, because we also had like, I feel like we shot half of like a love scene. Yeah. And then you were like, oh, I've got to spend out this whole time. What are we going to do about that? But in the end, I would encourage anybody to, if you know, you have the time and the patience.

Go find it. Go find those toes. Are they green screened out? Do they get rid of? No, because that would take a lot of like, consider it. Like, it's, so much money. So what we avoided was, well, I think we avoided in many of the shots is just like, you can't, just as blurry.

It's just you can't really see. Yeah. It also has that, I mean, there's that effect in a lot of the shots where it has like a blurriness to it. It's got this kind of, you don't even know the aesthetic of your own show. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't. Oh, you mean. Like in the shots, the lens has like,

A little bit of like a blurry kind of dream-like thing. Whatever, man. Whatever. Anyway, shooting the final episode, we don't often get to do this in shooting television especially, but shot a lot of it in sequence because we were, I mean, by the end of it in various states of like undress with like cuts and blood and wounds from guns.

and other things the continuity actually finally so there's like stages of blood and sweat and dirt um and different wounds different times like for instance when she stabs the cat claw thing yeah so it's like you know you've got to because we're just shooting everything out of order it was like we were just constantly having to remember like no there's a mark of dirt there yeah i've got to have the blood dripping but then this one has to be you You know, it was like so many things doesn't necessarily make for an interesting answer, but it's just highly technical. And so I think, for me at least, it was, it was, it was kind of, you know, Joe in general

has been a very technical role all throughout. And so it was sort of like a final crowning technicality. It was just like everything was, the fights, the, the, was. whatever danger there was of like, you know, she had to be underwater and like fake, fake, fake drown? Fake drown. No, it's a fake fake drown. And it looked really real.

Yeah, which does that mean it's just a real fake drown? Yeah. But, you know, like all these, everything about it, highly, highly technical. And so there's something that's really satisfying when you're just doing a lot, you know? Yeah. And again, it may not look like much on camera. No, it looked incredible. But it was, yeah, it was just a really satisfying way to bring it all to an end.

Even, again, just from that technical perspective, and then, like, those moments where it's so intense. I mean, I remember, like, there's two moments, one where Joe, um, he punches Bronte in that, in that, in that fight sequence. And, um, then there's also the moment where he's saying, like, you know, you want to, you want to know what happened in Beck, well, I'll show you. And then, and then he strangles her. And I remember, like, that was, that was, you know, that, those are some of those moments where the audience is, purposely been withheld from seeing him do that explicitly, you know? And then there's moments where finally doing it, and it was just like, this, you know, feels awful. And so I think my voice, you know, and like the voiceover, it's a little bit of like

a mask for him. And imagine if he was like, and then I, I see you come into the store and, you know, so like that. You know, so like that. Hey there. How are you? Oh, yeah, wow. You know, but in that last moment, I don't know that I don't, I haven't seen it in a bit, but I remember just knowing like I didn't want to go even deeper and be more gravely.

It's like for the I'll show you, I remember a little bit. It was a little nasly. It felt to me, it was like, like the over the top version to make the point is he was just kind of like, I'll show you. You know, kind of like that. It's like, ew, bro. You know, it's no longer even in that moment using this sort of performance of

of maleness to like make it, you know, attractive. So it just all felt, it felt like if it had been a movie, we would have done this and the, like, we would have done this with Beck. But we had to see it all come out. And so it was, it was weird after seven, not seasons, but years to, to finally make him as kind of,

of just gross as he could be and it was like you know just felt like no there were periods of time I think it was definitely during the fight sequence and then um out in the grass with like I you're strangling me I'm crying and a whole thing and we're like shooting this over and over again and we're like should we hug yeah no I remember one point well also it's just like you know you're smaller than me and I just felt like I was really it it felt there were points where you know we're like panting it's three in the morning there were people surrounding us but like we're just doing this super intense thing and I

just remember being like kind of put my hand on you being like are you all right like this is this is really because you were hyperventilating and like crying I think how could you not and like and I and even though you know my hands were just like limp as limp can be around your neck

and it was so choreographed and then that's why your neck hurt so much is you were like not actually strangling me Right. But it's like I just, it was just all still so physical. And there's, you can only fool your body so much before it just starts to feel like, you know, there's real abuse happening. There was like, I was ignited in a way, like my body was responding in a way as though I was in danger because you don't know. I mean, but like I'm sure we've all experienced that at some point in our careers where you're like doing something that is like this isn't real. But my body, I've been doing it so many times now and taking myself to a place now that I have to, I have to protect myself from, from this.

And it just became so, so real. I don't know. It just kind of, um, and it felt we, I think it was, and it's to say like you have, we don't show it on camera or you don't show it on camera for the first four and

three quarter seasons. And then, uh, finally to see this abuse on camera, um, it really brought it back home that like this is a domestic violence. This is like, like a,

an interpersonal violent relationship. Like, and they're common, especially between men and women. But it's violence in inter-partner relationships are so, it's so common all over the world. Yeah, it was intense. And I'm so grateful for where we take it and where it ends and to kind of like bring that point home to him right at the end there, like out in the woods. I also love that Bronte is smart and savvy and she still fell for Joe and she still saw

her question through to the end. She set out on this journey to figure out what happened to her friend Beck. And she answers that question. And yeah, I'm very proud of her. As you should be. That is a perfect segue to our last question for the women. And then we have a final question for 10. Okay, when all of you were 12 years old.

I was waiting for that. How would you're 12 years old I was think of? No. So the theme of the finale and really like brings the series home is listening to your intuition. So sort of like in the previous four seasons,

Joe is able to succeed or accomplish what he accomplishes because the women don't listen to their intuition. He helps them kind of erase their own voices. And Bronte names that. And she listens to herself and she has him kind of redact himself. And so just want to hear from you, like, in your own lives, what have you learned about listening to your own intuition? Or if you have a specific moment, like, was there a time when you had a feeling of intuition about something

and you followed it and you were right? Yeah. And actually the one, like maybe a couple of times where I haven't, sorry, I've really been trying not to move. someone say isn't it really poignant i'm like just be still if i look weird and anyway so um the couple of times where i haven't listened to my intuition i'm sorry i'm not like where i haven't listened to my intuition i have then realized that i should have in the first place and that's kind of like you know speaking for nadia she always did go on her

first instinct and she was always right so that's what I'll say on that I think I've learned in recent years how much stuff I have to get rid of to find my intuition I feel like the constant messaging from so many various places from such a tiny tiny age so you you pile on all these things and for me it's been a thing of just like trying to actually work out what which one of the many many voices is is my intuition and that's been really amazing to try and find that yeah and then listening to it once you can hear it for me even hearing it was an issue not necessarily even having it um yeah I would say that's a big thing um for me I guess like I don't want to make it dark um but no like I mean for me I like

Like I mentioned in the beginning, like there was a situation for me that I denied my intuition entirely and went through what some of these women have, not to the extent, thank God. But yeah, and so from that point forward, and when I, like, thankfully, due to the powers of the universe that sort of got me out of that situation, like, I sort of vowed to myself that I would never deny my intuition again and learn that the more like even in little moments of like picking what like pastry you want at the coffee shop it's like that listening to even pressure to put in yourself it is man but no like I just even in because the more we tell ourselves like or we quiet it like that the more the the more that we quiet it how do I want to put this in words the more

that we quiet it but like the more it's going to go go away the more that like it'll think that like your body will stop to just stop trusting you entirely and then kind of worse things are are capable of happening so yeah I just in every moment now like I I try to just just listen just listen and if I don't have it then just like shoot for something but yeah just made a very very strong promise to myself that yeah yeah I think that intuition's been a difficulty of mine because I've been so riddled with anxiety my entire life I have I don't have a memory before anxiety

I just I've been an anxious kid my mom calls me a raw nerve I'm just like buzzing with electricity and anxiety and so I've struggled with honestly trusting the anxiety more than the gut and like thinking but but but but I'm thinking I'm thinking I'm feeling I'm feeling and not realizing like thoughts are not actually feelings I'm thinking of every single thing that could go wrong and everything I've done wrong and everything I have ever said and thought is wrong and I'm learning more now the difference between the two and that I can trust myself and that there's peace in that trust and that I my trust in myself is enough and I don't need to be

constantly getting validation and reassurance because that is what anxiety does and to me at least the way it manifests is like, are you sure? Do you think? What do you think, Hannah? Tell me what to do. um i like constantly needing that validation and like i and maybe it's just like being in my 30s now and i've like landed in the knowledge that i know what's right for me i've been with me long enough i know and um it's something you can't possibly know when you're like 20 i guess like things are different and and and you might not know yourself as well or you might not know who you're going to be or what is possible for you because at every age I feel like you know I don't feel like you start learning that you can be constantly reinventing and anything is possible at any age but at 20

it doesn't feel that way and so um yeah separating the anxiety from the intuition has been a huge thing for me in my life I'm 40 uh two actually um and I have I mean I'm so happy to be getting older as a woman. I've changed so much over the years, but I was raised to please other people. I was raised to please my dad, the patriarchy. I mean, I've been serving. I go to set. I make people laugh. I try to make sure everybody's comfortable. You know, I still do that kind of thing. But I've really learned that if I get that gut feeling, I mean, I've been in relationships with men before because I didn't want to upset them. I've stayed longer.

You mean like from the outset? Like from what? You mean like from the beginning? Not from the beginning, you know, but I've stayed longer because I didn't want to upset them. I didn't want anyone to be mad at me. And I had these moments where I would be sitting in my room or in the door was closed and I just go, something doesn't feel right. Something is off, just get up, just go downstairs, just say you don't want to do it anymore.

But instead I would get up and I would give them a hug. give them a hug. And I finally decided I'm never doing that again. And I've never been happier. So lovely. Yeah, I've got nothing ahead of that.

Okay, well, that's good. Because Penn, we have our final question. Wait, wait, why doesn't Penn get to do the intuition? The intuition? If you want to, you can't. Sure. I don't. I know it was like a women's question.

No, no, no, no. You're right. You're right. Yeah, what have you learned about listening to your intuition pen? Hmm. Um, I, I've very much struggled with a relationship to that because I think it's like it's something that, uh, you know, very early on seemed like I had to learn to stop listening to it. So, you feel like you need to unpack that a little bit. What do you mean? Well, I think Culturally we don't have a lot of... I don't know. What is intuition? So... Do you know?

Sorry. No, please, please, please. I just heard about this study that was done where they collected the sweat off of two groups of people. Has anyone heard about this? One group of people, they had just sweat from running on the treadmill.

The other group of people, it was from when they were skydiving. So there was like adrenaline, fear. Moral fear. And then they took those samples and they had like a group of people smell each sample. Try sweat. It smells worse. Yes. I stink right now.

No, not that it smells worse, but they were like, maybe they were scanning their brains at the time. I don't know. They were measuring activity in their brain. And that when the groups would smell the sweat from the skydiving, their fear signals would like shoot up. Interesting. You're kidding. Yeah. So there is like a gut.

instinct that like some i think some of intuition is mystical and divine probably spiritual and then some of it is also just like a physical like your reaction to physical environment things that you don't even realize you're perceiving yeah yeah well that yeah i think i pose that question um i think because it's difficult to answer and that gets towards it it's it's it's a combination of physical and spiritual it's like the nervous system is actually a place where those two things meet and you're learning how to, are you all touched on this in some ways, like learning to listen to your body, but of course we're not just bodies. So it's like you're learning to remember to have a right relationship with your body where you can listen to it, it can listen to you if there's separate

things or at all distinct, but then ultimately like remembering about the right relationship there and that you're not, you know, sometimes it is anxiety. And it's very hard to discern from the two. You know, so I think it's like, um, Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this before. I think it's just coming up in Hollywood and finding myself in a lot of environments where listening to my intuition would have meant like leaving a place that I couldn't, you know? And I experienced that from a very early age, that particular sensation. So I think I really

I think for a number of reasons I have spent most of my life ignoring my intuition but having it that's actually why I'm oddly comfortable being like the poster child for something I don't like I'm uncomfortable all the time

I'm perfectly happy about stating the ways in which I am uncomfortable to millions of people because I'm nearly 40 and that's just, you know, the position I've been in. So, you know, and so, so, but, but the way that I've been slowly reclaiming my relationship with my intuition is, um, solely in meditation and prayer. That's the only place where I feel like I can really listen to it and completely agree with it. And then I open my eyes and try to enact it and I'm like, oh, real life.

Yeah. I don't know, you know, but I'm serious. It's true, it's about the interaction with the real world, isn't it? Yeah, I had this experience. The internal coming to. Yes, no, really, like two nights ago. I was just like in this like languid, lovely, like, hot tub mental state, just like super relaxed, coming to terms of all this stuff.

And then, you know, open my eyes. And it's like the moment you start to move, you're like, I don't know if that was real. Anyway. Well, there's that like, just to touch on that, there's like that corporeal, like, instinct or intuition that you feel that is like a sensation almost and then there's like the spiritual intuition that is is I don't even know how to describe it but there's also like a divine intuition that feels like it comes from somewhere or something else and it's not you yeah you don't feel it or maybe you hear it or maybe you sense it um I just call it like divine intervention all the time

happens in my life. But that, like, spirit is the one that I think is almost like the gut instinct. Like, it's a part of you, but it's something you have to listen to. You don't feel it, but you know it. And there's, like, different kinds of intuition and instinct that, like, I think when you, we are someone who practices meditation, I am not, I never will be. Sorry. Never say never.

I don't. Thing I don't like about people who meditate. If you don't want to do it, that's why you need it. It drives me crazy. But there is like that I know the piece. Do you know that David Lynch died in meditation? I didn't know. He was in meditation.

Because he was an active transcendental meditation practitioner and he died. Is that why you're not going to do it in meditation? I mean, if there's a way I want to go out, it's the way David Lynch went out. But like, it is a beautiful thing. but I So pick it up when you're 80 Maybe I'll get there someday It's not like I haven't tried

It's not for lack of trying It's that I sit there and I'm like Go crazy Anyway, but yeah That like divine spirit And corporeal intuition And instinct and Knowing the three of them

And knowing which is which It's like It's like the great work of your life Yeah Anyway Well Watch you on That's what this shows about

We have one final question And it is Penn Do you feel We've asked everybody in the room But you Do you feel that Joe got the ending That he deserved? Absolutely

I mean How long do we have? I think someone literally Just came to be like you have one minute Yeah Easy answer, yes Basically I think I think it's

As you were saying I'm at the beginning of this this this uh this this is um this enterprise

this journey we've been on uh it wow I lost my train of thought hold up hold up I don't remember I said

I think Amy said there was a two divine intuition there's always could have been another option someone else oh yes yes yes it's like it's

it really it's not possible to have a perfect ending I don't think there and one of the reasons is because Joe has done too many impossibly dynamic things.

I think he's too many things at once. That's a normal thing for a protagonist of a show that lasts this many seasons. It's just too many things have to happen to keep viewers, to keep exploring something new. He's just, you know, I don't know that he, like, does he really love Henry? Like, you know.

I don't think so, but like, there has to be some reality to that in order to make it even a possible device at some point in the season, you know? I think it's as good as I think they had a nearly impossible task for themselves, the writers of this season and they and they I've actually been saying it all my other press like you know hats off to them to Michael Foley, Justin Lowe in the whole writer's room they they kind of checked every box that needed to be checked in a very satisfying way

and I've been joking about it a lot but the removal of his genitalia is the removal specifically of I think again one of the tools he used the most to manipulate in the most insidious way because it's and I don't mean actually like sexy what I mean is he didn't do it in the box

you know the box was like a bumbling fail safe where he was like all right gigs up this is what I do so how are we going to get out of here you know but the bedroom is the symbol of it's the representation of how he just always was

he's like no no no no no no no no you know no no no no no sit down i'll listen to you you know like i'll i'm here for you you know that's so so i think he was brought to his absolutely best end um possible like make him real bring it to the real world give him real justice what would that look like i don't know um but i yeah i think i think it's i think it's i think it's yeah i think it's yeah i I think it's perfect, basically. Me too. Thank you guys so much for joining us.

Yeah, thank you. I actually want to extend a heartfelt gratitude to each and every one of you, in particular my co-hosts, because, if you shall know, this is basically the end of my press tour. It's the end of the... I have to do a few things, minor things. Someone at Netflix just gasps. Yeah.

This is the last, the most substantive, bit of it all. Yes, we have a lot of, a lot of carpets to walk and things to do. But I hadn't planned it this way, but this feels, in this interview, I was sort of zoning out at some point being like, hey, I can't listen to all these women. No, I'm of course kidding. What I meant was really like, this is crazy that this is the way it's all ending. Like it was, I actually really was lovely to listen to all of you rather than have to find out new things to say. So, and thank you both for leading it and guiding it. This is a dream.

Yeah. I love you all. Thank you for having it. Thank you so, so much. Podcrushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Navacavalin, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Manada. And as always, you can listen to Podcrush ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

Okay, that's all. Bye. That's lovely. Are we rolling? We're all good? All right, lock it up. Whoa. Did you say rock out? Lock it out.

Yeah, I like that better, but lock it up. Okay. Rock it out. Lock it out. Lock it out. And, um... Oh, okay.