Podcrushed - Ziwe

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

In our Season 2 finale the one and only Ziwe stops by! Her legendary sharp wit and inimitable comedic voice are on display as she showers us with stories of adolescence and coming of age. She shares why being completely herself has been critical to her career, an update on her future foray into pop stardom, and why the keys to success are within our own reach. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada And so I used to wear these Grammy panties that would hike up to like my chest and I remember one day sitting out at lunch table and my Grammy panties being fully exposed and everyone at the lunch table laughing at me ah ha ha! Look at our panties! And me just being like, oh, I meant to show them.

That's amazing though. And that was like my first like memory of me using comedy to deflect trauma. Welcome to Podcrushed. We're hosts. I'm Penn. I'm Nava. And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties. And high school.

And then we would have been super close in college. And then we're going to get married and have kids. Wait, what are we talking about? In the darkest period of the calendar year, we come to you just days before the eve of the equino. the final episode of the second season of Pod Crushed. It is indeed the finale.

I come to you now with my co-host Navakhavelin. Nowba, how are you? Hello. I feel like I can't follow that. You can't. You can't. No, how are the shorter days treating you right now? How are your dogs?

Yeah. Yeah, my little dog, Louie, got in a little accident this morning, so, you know, everyone pray for Louie. Although by the time this is out, he should be okay. The shorter days definitely throw me. We really got to start. Yeah, pray for Louie. Let's make it trend. If it's a dog, I feel like everybody who's understanding and be frustrated with the ideas of thoughts and prayers, I'd be like, no, no, I'll pray for a dog.

I'll totally pray for a little dog, obviously. Yeah. The shorter days throw me, like at 6 p.m. I'm like, it's 10. We're wrapping, we're going to bed, right? Yeah, how are they treating you? Recently, my toddler has been going to bed at ungodly hours. I don't know what, I think it's, I think it is the day change. But there's just something, I don't know, you know.

Maybe stop spiking his food with rum. Maybe he'll relax a little. No, I'm trying to keep his development. I'm trying to slow it down. So I don't have more to do. Yeah, true. Even though, you know, I don't celebrate Christmas traditionally, It is my favorite time of the year

It's just beautiful I love it What a heathen Yeah I know Just kidding I'm just kidding I love Christmas I love

I loved I just love Yeah I love it Speaking of things that I Segway Segway to the guest Always

My strong suit We'll say Yeah No really But coming to us When times are darkest Who do we need A ray of light

Like Zeeway Yeah We have Zeyway is more needed I feel like if you listen to us you know who she is if you don't she's really had a meteoric rise

as a comedian and writer but a monon as a mononym matic can you say that as a mono as a she's a she's a multisyllabic mononym multi hyphenate um

huge talent she's uh she is I think a genius, she agreed to come on. Zeeway, who is typically the one interviewing others, known now iconic for her interview style. She did not once make me feel uncomfortable, which was so gracious of her. She did not take any, any veiled staves. She was just a gracious guest and really happy to be here, it seemed like. We were so happy to have her.

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Keep mealtime exciting with NomNum, available at your local pet-smart store or at Chewy. Learn more at trynom.com slash podcrushed, spelled try-n-O-M dot com slash podcrushed. Hey, it's Lena Waith. Legacy Talk is my love letter to black storytellers. artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us. This season, I'm sitting down with icons like Felicia Rashad, Loretta Vine, Ava DuVernay, and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process,

and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season two drops July 29th. Listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast, or watch us on YouTube. You wrote yourself, I'm going to quote you, art to heal my inner child, the young girl that did not have the words to explain the world herself. So I think this is very relatable and beautiful for so many people. Thank you. Can you tell us about that 12, 13-year-old Zeeway who, what words do you have now that she did not

have? I just have the vocabulary to point out what was really obvious to me at the time. So I would find myself as a 12-year-old in really awkward conversations. Oh my gosh. One time, particularly, I remember I was at the Loop, AMC Theater in Methuen, Massachusetts, and me and my friend Andrew are walking, and this little girl is playing, and she drops her wallet, and I see it, I don't

say anything, and we just keep walking. And then a minute later, a mom approaches me and says, hey, do you know where my daughter's wallet is? And I was like, I saw her drop it, and she's like, did you take it? And like, no. And she, of all the people in this entire theater, she, like, accosted me. And

as a child, you're like, that was weird but as an adult you're like oh wait like this is a really political act and so i went you know when that happened it took me maybe two hours to be like wait a second she's the bad guy and i wish i had defended myself i honestly was trying to help her i was like oh the wallet was over there i saw it two minutes ago it was green right go back hurry and it's like i should have like like kicked her in the shin or something like i was a kid i was 12 yeah totally like i wasn't responsible for her little daughter's little wallet um so i I think as I get older, I have more confidence and more of an understanding of the world around me and how I fit into that world.

And as a result, I can, like, engage with people in a way that, like, felt so awkward and I was, I avoided, like, the plague when I was younger. See, way, I'm curious, sort of in your adult self-assessment, what were your best traits as a 12 and 13-year-old? And what do you think you were, like, struggling with the most? My best, I mean, my best traits were that I'm funny. And so I was a really funny child. And even then, I got some zingers in in a way that were like too truthful and hurtful, but needed to happen.

And my worst traits, I mean, I've always, believe it or not, I've always been shy, which it seems uncharactered. I can actually, in the best way, I can feel that now in person in a way that is not, you know, what you're doing when you're like, you know, in your work. Totally. You've spoken about this before. I was like, yeah, I believe her.

But I can feel that now, which I think is great because that's your humanity. That's my humanity. People expect me to walk into a room and uppercut everyone. And it's like, no, I am just a tiny little 19-year-old girl. Yeah, you actually feel like you're so young. I'm so, I'm a bit, well, I'm not actually 19. You know that, right? Sorry, hang on.

No, I'm 19 for the record. No, says right here. You're 31, right? Gugu Gaga. Yes. But seriously, like that's, that's, you know, you seem to be getting this experience where people are, I don't know, intimidated, partly because of just the nature of how you interview people, you know, like there's so many things. There's the stuff that you referenced before, like inherent racism, all this stuff. Is that lessening?

Are you having, or is it being magnified as you kind of, like, you know, just the expectation when you come into a room? That is a great question. I talked about this yesterday with someone. because my interview I've been doing since 2016 but I wish I could say that I'm this genius maestro that pioneered a new discourse of questions

but the truth is it's based on like my trauma and how I engage with people privately I just put that in front of a camera so it is not changing it's not changing people have always felt that energy around me and now I'm able to codify it in a way that is

crystal clear. But if there is no show, no interview, this would always be the dynamic I've had since my childhood. Okay, so that's interesting. So let's go back to where we were on like, you know, again, you and middle school. Yes. You had this vibe? I felt others

feel it towards me. But I did not walk around like, I have such power! You know? But maybe culturally, I'm Nigerian and Nigerians are very direct. Some would say, rude people. And so as a result, like, I was raised by my parents in America and I, some of their, the way of communication rubbed off on me. And so maybe that's it. Maybe the fact that my

parents were always like really brash and really to the point, like, it's something that I take in every conversation and that's the thing that people are feeling. Yeah. Maybe. You'd have to ask, you'd have to survey 100 people and be like, what's your problem with her? And they'd be like, nothing. She's perfect. Is it true that you went to an elite boarding school? And if so, I think you might be our first guest. So we're kind of curious just what that whole experience was like. Well, so I became a huge fan of you, Penn.

Did you really? Of course. Oh, you don't know that I'm a fan. So let's be clear, I'm a huge fan of your work. I think you're a fantastic actor. Oh, thank you. Oh, you freaked it on you. Amazing.

You're such a good actor. I love your feature film experience as well. You've had a couple spots that have been really cool and underappreciated. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. And then I first came across your work in Gossip Girl, and I went to prep school. And Gossip Girl is sort of like it ages these teenagers up in a way that is really controversial and worrying to much parents' true grin. And I was alive in that environment as a boarding school student as well.

That's okay. So tell us a bit more about. It wasn't as risque. No, no, no, of course, of course. But, I mean, one of the ways you couched it in your book is like you've lived away from home since you were 14. Yes, I have. That's not what everybody gets. Yeah.

Like, for instance, I was not living away from home, but I haven't really gone to school since I was 14 about. And, you know, so I can understand some of those strange forms of independence, but to literally just not be home. I mean, so what was that like? And how do you think that maybe influenced you? I think there's, I mean, I'm independent. I get really mad at people who are not independent. Like, get it together, you baby. Like, what would you do if no one was here to help you?

I've dated a lot of guys where I'm like, how are you not dead? I'm deeply concerned for you. I was doing this at 15 years old. But then I think to mention your point about, like, how people interact with me and how that's changed over time, it's like I've had a really crystal clear sense of me as an individual and me in the way that my individuality

has moved through multiple institutions. And so that was really something that happened in my boarding school time specifically. Because when you live at home in elementary school, your parents are your heroes. Like the capital of the universe was Boston, Massachusetts. What do I know? And then you move out of that space

and you're like, well, the laws of the world aren't my parents' laws. Like the things that they watch aren't the things everyone watches, the music that they watch, the religion. So it really expands your mind at a really crucial age. And so that was just, that sort of allowed me to be an adult, maybe too soon. Yeah.

But it gave me some wisdom. We've had a few people on who are like real experts in their field of like, say, family therapy, psychology, this kind of stuff. I'm thinking of two in particular, one was Dr. Gabramate, the other was Dr. Stan Tatkin, and they talk a lot about attachment theory and just how, like, you know, we're human beings. It's a scientific way, I think, of just saying, like, it's in our nature to love. Like, we get attached to whoever we're closest to, physically. In the beginning, it's our parents, but then if we move away, did you start to form, were you able to form strong relationships there?

Did you, you know, what were your friendships like? Yeah, I had a, my strongest relationships are with the people. I went to boarding school. Are you saying still? Still? To this day. My friend Andrew is probably one of my closest friends and we went to boarding school together. That's cool.

But what your question was, my attachment style is actually avoidant. So I am avoidant attachment style, which means that if I, what they found. So basically, if you don't know the study, is they had babies, they took the parent away from the baby. And one baby cried, cried, cried. One baby didn't react at all. And when they found the baby's like heart tempo, they were just as, anxious, but they didn't show it. They're frozen. Exactly. And so that's me.

Like, I don't give off the sense that I am constantly tweaking, but I am. Yeah, for sure. And similarly, I'm okay with people leaving me. I'm like, people come, people go. Like, I have really close friends in all over the world, all over the country that I might not

talk to for six months, and I still consider them close friends. That if I picked up the phone again, we would leave, we would start where we left off. so I don't know how healthy that is but it really just shaped the world that I see and it made me into someone who was like endlessly curious

endlessly thoughtful endlessly aware of other people having different perspectives like that I think is what you see in my interviews or maybe my strength is that I appreciate the fact that it's like oh my perspective is not gospel even though I wish it was

and I do think it should be There's a phrase out there The Church of Z-Way Was that just an article headline? You didn't coin that. I did not coin that, but I would love to start a church-slash-haven. I don't know how that would work,

and I'm not trying to get... Very well, probably. Yeah, exactly. But no, that was New York MAG, I think, or the cut. Yeah, it was the cut, I think. I'm just curious, you just talked about sort of being someone who's open to different perspectives and you've shared that your mom is conservative.

I'm guessing that you have a different sort of political belief. And I'm curious when you were growing up with your mom, did you guys ever clash? Like, was there a point where you also had that perspective and it changed over time? Sort of how did that affect you having, having that sort of political perspective in the home? I definitely shared, so I grew up really religious. And so most religious, children with religious parents, they are like, okay, religion, religion, religion. And they either like go with the family or they break in a really like severe way

and I probably broke in a really severe way and so we've been clashing since then you did say in your book I think you said like the only I mean it's obviously a bit humor but you said like the only thing you can talk about with your parents is food and God yes that's true so that's interesting

that you had a break but then you you know I've because I've learned the hardest thing I've found in therapy is appreciating that I cannot change people. I cannot change my parent. I am the child.

And there was a lot of like, maybe I was, I don't even know if bitter is the right word, but like I definitely didn't appreciate the fact that I would have to kowtow to them culturally. Like, why couldn't they meet me where I am? But life is so short. My parents will be here for as long as they are.

And if I want to have a relationship with them where I learn about them, where I learned about the parents that came before them, I have to respect that this is culture. And to them, to me it's not the gospel, but to them it is. It's hard though. No, that is huge.

I want to be like, let's talk about real housewives and they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about it. So actually that segues nicely into like what, you seem like you're, I mean, you seem like you really consume pop culture in this way, like just voraciously. Nava is similar. Actually, you

You two remind me of each other. The frankness, the directness. Such a compliment to me. Oh, my God. The high intelligence, but then, like, you know, you love pop culture in a way that for me, it just doesn't. He's like, only dumb people do, so it's hard to. No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, you are pop culture.

Well, that's probably it. Yeah. And it's just never resonated with me. When I'm able to kind of glimpse what it's like to consume pop culture without feeling like you're a part of it, I'm like, oh, that's what that is. Yeah. That's relieving. That's different. But anyway.

I was talking about you two. Pop culture queens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what, like, we do love the kind of cringe, embarrassment, awkward thing here. Yes. What are some trends that you were into in middle school and high school that make you cringe now?

Is there anything you can think of? Ballet flats are deeply uncomfortable. That was cringe. That was probably from Gossip Girl. I brought a Mewu Bag because of Gossip Girl all day. Like, I am so deeply inspired. like sitorially by your

oh that's awesome but ballet flats what was him I was oh my god I mean I had the squishy black earrings and then like the studded bracelets like I wanted to be emo so bad I had an electric guitar

black electric guitar Oh my gosh that's cool though I wrote a song called Lone Wolf I was really into the emo phase This was when Green Day was really I don't know if Green Day's email I wouldn't consider them emo because I'm a bit older and they

were like, yeah, they were not email. My chemical romance, were they emails? Yeah, so they were really hard. Like the Black Parade, ooh. Yeah, the Black Parade. That was our human rhapsody. And so that was really, really cringe, even though the music was popping. Yeah.

Actually, just on that, Frans, the way, you are kind of a secret, or I don't know if it's a secret, but you're kind of a pop star too. Like, you write pop music. And will you ever release it? And could you tell us the title of one of your pop songs? I've been working on pop music all year, and maybe I'll release an album in 24. I don't know. It's hard because with music, I like being good at things.

And so writing my book was so hard for me, honestly. My editors told me that my book was done years ago, and I was like, no, it's not done. I have to fix every word. And I was rewriting and writing it until the, like, May, and the book came out in October. because I am so controlling. And so with music, similarly, I become obsessive. And so I've done a bunch of demos, but I have to figure it out. Like, what is the sound?

What am I saying on this God's Earth in this 13 song album? You know? So, TBD. Well, if you do release it, come back. We want to listen to it with you. I would love to. And it's not like a y'all thing, like I would be happy to. It's more like I become, I get in my head.

But I think to the benefit of my art. Could you leak the title of one of the songs or no, not yet? No, not even. No, because I would talk, like, I told everyone the book was called The Book of Zeeway. And then a month later, I was like, this title sucks. We did a new title. And then I didn't lock a title until May of this year. So I changed things constantly.

Fair, fair. But we will bring you back at Zeeway to stream your album. I would love to come back just to talk about the weather. This is fun. Okay. So as you're coming of age, what, you know, what was motivating you creatively, artistically, spiritually, like how that all kind of blends together, you know? Like, who was inspiring you and what led you into what would eventually become writing and comedy? I had a really amazing teacher, my freshman year of high school, my first semester, named Miss Benson.

And she introduced me to Tony Morrison. and I was shocked that someone could have bars like that in a novel like shook. And then she introduced us to satire in the form of Jonathan Swift who wrote the essay about eating babies and Stephen Colbert, the Colbert Report

and his White House correspondent's speech and his show. And I thought, wow, the power of words. Like, I became a sycophant about words being so powerful, they can change anything. And I was, it almost was, naivete, but it allowed me to really just immerse myself into writing. And that is the beating heart of all that I do. It's like an obsession with writing and how it can, I believe, move mountains. And we'll be right back. All right. So let's just let's just real talk, as they say for a second. That's a little bit of an aged thing to say now. That dates me, doesn't it? But no, real talk. How important is your health to you? you know on like a one to ten and i don't mean the in the sense of vanity i mean in the sense of like

you want your day to go well right you want to be less stressed you don't want it as sick when you have responsibilities um i know myself i'm a householder i have uh i have two children and two more on the way um a spouse a pet you know a job that sometimes has its demands so i really want to feel like when i'm not getting the sleep and i'm not getting nutrition when my eating's down i want to know that i'm that i'm being held down some other way physically you know my family holds me down emotionally spiritually but i need something to hold me down physically right and so honestly i turned to symbiotica these these these these these these these vitamins and these beautiful little packets that they taste delicious and i'm telling you um even before i started doing

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we have two classic questions we ask everyone so just want to ask you those the first question is if you have an embarrassing story from middle school that you remember that you could share with us an embarrassing story I mean my parent my mother would dress me up um horribly I did not have any Riz and so you know what I think that's like one of the things I've heard somebody say Riz in real life yeah I haven't had a new I didn't have Riz And so I used to wear these Grammy panties that would hike up to, like, my chest. And I remember one day sitting out at lunch table and my Grammy panties being fully exposed and everyone at the lunch table laughing at me, ah, ha, ha, look at her panties. And me just being like, oh, I meant to show them. That's amazing, though. And that was, like, my first, like, memory of me using comedy to deflect trauma. No, that's great.

Because I was ashamed and humiliated. but the joke was on them because they didn't know. Avoid it. Avoid it. That's impressive. Okay, the other question we ask everyone is to share about their first, like, big crush or infatuation or love and their first heartbreak. My first crush, and this is like a real human being. A real human being, yeah.

Well, I mean, if it's a good story, it can be... If it's an actor and if it's Dan Humphrey, we'll take a kid. Oh, yeah. Okay. My first crush was probably this kid. in my freshman or first, like first grade named Patrick who was

blonde. And I didn't even think I liked him. I think it was just that he was blonde and everyone else liked him. So I was like, oh yeah, I like Patrick. And then I remember I told Patrick like, I want to kiss you. And then he told his mom. And then my mom had to had to talk with me about like consent and not telling people you want to kiss them. So that was the end of my crush

was me getting a lesson on boundaries. Was it really, I mean, it wasn't framed in that language then, was it? Consent and boundaries? It was just like, don't say that to people. It's like, don't do that. Why? Don't.

That's really, that's how we learned things back then. We also would get like, if we got a cut, they'd just like push this down the stairs and be like, walk it off. But my first heartbreak was in high school, and it was this guy who ended up going on to be like a Harvard libertarian. So really, that was God blocking, me. But it was just like an on-again, off-again

thing where it was abundantly clear. He had no interest in me. I remember him specifically telling me pitting me against one of my friends and being like, she is much prettier than me. Oh, no. Pretty prettier than you. And me being like, she is? brushing my hair, like trying to dress

like her. Like, super, super sad. But that was probably my first heartbreak. And that taught me the lessons of of men being sometimes deeply, deeply annoying yeah

and just like oh God like I poured so much into this this crush that had no interest for me never like

I couldn't have like handcuffed him to me and made him be my boyfriend if I tried with like at gunpoint and but you

want to be loved so badly you're like please please how can I change myself and it's like okay

the answer is right in front of you like please just take it in sometimes like that is much healthier. Yeah.

Yeah. I like that. Spilling tea. Wow. All right, yeah. Let's get into your career because I really feel like that's, that's what we're all here for.

Sure, my career. I do want to say, just like on the record, I feel like you're a genius and that you're at the level of Sasha Barron Cohen. Wow, thank you. I mean, again, now meeting you, it's also so clear how young you are, Like, which is phenomenal.

Guga. It's not anything, I hope you don't feel like I'm, but I just. No, I love it. Please keep calling me young. I, I, so I just, you know, I think we're curious. First of all, our research indicates, you say something like, or it's in Wikipedia or whatever that you have,

you had a double major, but then there's like four majors listed. And having never gone to even high school myself, I'm a little bit confused. So what you had, you had film. Oh, radio, Radio television and film. Oh, that's a thing. African American studies. And then poetry, minor certificate.

Okay, so the two are radio television and film, that's one. And the other is African American studies. Yes. And then the minor is poetry. Poetry. Okay, okay. Yeah, shows how little experience I have with formal. Can you explain a major to pen?

But do you read a lot? I feel like you read a lot. Yeah, I feel like you read a lot. Yeah. Hey, education. I can tell you how to move through an institution. If you want advice, I will tell you how to do it. But I think the thing that I've been coming back to as I get older is like reading,

the importance of reading and immersing myself and learning. Because I remember a lot from school, but to expand my mind, I have to like oil that motor. Yeah, it's so true. You, in college,

is that when you started really developing your craft of like the sort of the interview that you're famous for, this sort of like iconic, I don't want to say trapping, but maybe leading people to answers that they wouldn't give in any other interview. Is that something you started honing in college?

No, I started honing that after college. But it's something that, I mean, it is such an indicator of like the Obama era of journalism. Like you really feel like the Fox News impact in baiting as a style. So

I first perceived that when I was in high school and then and always thought it was funny but did not activate it until after college like 26th. I'm just, I'm remembering your, is it the one that maybe you were

first, most famous for, is it Pat? Oh, Pat Regan? Yeah, Pat. Ah! He's going to love that. Yeah, that's funny. So to be clear, I think what wasn't totally clear to me, like, he's a friend. Yes, for sure. Totally. Yeah, no, they were all friends. It was comedians.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so you started trying to, you started trying, this out on your friends and that I guess what I'm curious is like this triangulation between at some point you did stand up yes I did stand up before you just sent it before right which is like

the path that so many comedians are wrong but then you seems like you kind of dovetail the way from that or I don't know I mean I still do I just did a tour honestly I mean I started as a writer I was afraid to be on camera so super shy and so I started writing and I would like and that includes stage by the way you didn't want to be on stage I was afraid I was afraid I was afraid. And then someone asked me

if I did stand-up and I lied and I got on stage and killed and it was like, this is easy. And then I performed and I was like bombing. And it was like, okay, this is a craft you have to work on. And I stand-up for me, there are a lot of really great stand-ups, but I couldn't find a way to do it

as like a special that I felt engaged me in my ADHD brain. And so my solution was like, okay, I love interviewing, I love talking to people. How can we use like these mechanics? I pulled from improv and stand-up in a space that is new and fresh. And so what you see is like the marriage of like a journalism background with like the marriage of like comedy and stand-up and improv into this format of like, okay, I'm going to confront my comedian friends who are also stand-ups.

We're going to have an interview that is entirely unplanned other than the questions and we're going to improvise our way out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a heavy kind of interest in journalistic political? I'm not sure what to call it apart from that, but like, is that what you, partly what you studied? Well, so I, I wrote from my college newspaper for one week and was like, this sucks. I'm not talking about myself at all, and I quit. But I had grown up reading the news every single day.

I read the news, the Eagle Tribune every day. Did that come from your parents? That feels to me. And then I watched the evening news at 6 p.m. and 6.30, David Muir, every single day of my childhood. Like, I remember when we went into Iraq. Like, I remember that as my child. childhood memories of like watching the news with my parents on the Dixie Chicks news with my parents.

You're talking about do I like read the news? Yeah, I read the news every single day for 20 years. Okay, okay. So you do have this kind of this ethos backing up. And that makes sense because it's like it feels to me like what you're doing is veiling that journalistic ethos and curiosity and seek and search of truth. And I think a passion for justice, it feels to me like, of course. but you're veiling it in like so many layers of a very like you know just in with your comedy this unique brand that you've that you've created so I'm curious like when did you who so like you know a few people we've had on like say I don't know there's somebody like Conan O'Brien or there's somebody like Julia Louis Dreyfus and then people people who talk about um like coming from an S&L background let's say There's always that time where somebody saw them

and then they went to perform and blah, blah, blah, you know, this and that. So what's your origin story narrative? How did you, as a conscious adult, with all the set of powers that you had, who was it, what started happening where you were like, I can do this, so that you started to try this out on your friends? Oh, so artistically what happened so that I started to try it out on my friends? Or just at all, but then you did try it out on your friends. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, gosh. That is an impossible question. But here's something I'll share. No, it's not a bad question. It's because it is like a myriad of different, like, moments. Because, like, the first ever baited episode came out the day after Hillary lost. So that is such like... Who was it?

This man named Mr. Trump won the presidency. Who was the interview? Michael Antinichede was his name and it was about interracial love or something like that and what was but that is such a crystallized moment

in American history and where I had these eyes wide open of like oh this is a watershed moment the world as it seems post Barack Obama is not what I expected like how do I adjust but I could name those watershed moments like every year going back

I think maybe the biggest, most impactful news story to me was I was in college when the George Zimmerman trial happened. Specifically, I was interning at the Colbert Report when the George Zimmerman trial happened. And I remember them covering it that week. And I was shook because Twitter was becoming this like juggernaut. And Twitter, excuse me, Twitter is wild because you get to see the opinions of people who should be out of your life. And so not only do you get to see like, oh like what does like Joni loves Chachi

think about the news, but you also get to be like, oh, this person I follow from high school, like this is their specific take on the news. And I was shocked. I'm from Massachusetts. Deeply liberal, highly educated, like background. And people had different opinions of me or people have different

opinions than me. And that really shook my foundation because while my word isn't gospel, certainly we have a shared reality. But that moment taught me that we didn't. And the fact that it's even a dispute I find to be sort of heartbreaking. But that was a moment where I had to take a step back and think, things are not how they seem.

And I can't be so binary in saying yes and no. Like everyone exists in a different plane than what I consider right and wrong. And how do I engage with others knowing that they are not coming at things from the same place that I am? And so that really shifted my art and my work. And also depressed, that means to depression. Zewa, you've said that you think of yourself as an accountability coach. And I mean, I think I have- That's a joke.

Oh, okay, okay. I was going to ask like, what are you holding people accountable for? That's a real housewife character as an accountability coach. Okay. I am curious that you do have such an interesting way of influencing the discourse. I mean, it's sort of like your unique stamp, I think, on what's happening. Or I don't know if stamp is the right word. But you're doing something that really catches people's attention and I think lingers with them.

And because it's through comedy, maybe defenses go down. So it seems like it's pretty effective. But I wonder for you as like, you know, a human being in a room with someone who probably feels uncomfortable at the moment. How does that feel for you when you're in those? You're doing something important, meaningful. That also makes another person uncomfortable. Like how do you sort of navigate all of that? So I'm going to be honest with you and say that at no point in my.

my life have I ever thought I am doing important work? Never! Oh my God, I think I would be mentally ill if every time I stepped through a door I said, it's in time for work importance. Like I am really just moving through the world as myself and I'm

reflective of my experiences. I wish I could say I had an agenda. I like, I love having a job. I really, this is just me me existing and I understand that for a lot of people that is a radical act, but And that's probably the sense of where my work feels so important is because I am calling to the fact that me just being myself is like a loco and the cocoa in the cocoa.

Like I have a dream, March from Washington. Right. When it's like I am just like keeping my head down and like trying to fake it through the day. And also similarly, like I, when people are feeling uncomfortable, I am feeling uncomfortable. I am human. And so I am like, I know that this discomfort is happening. It's just that I have a superpower where it's like, okay, I see it happening and I'm just going to sit through it because I have been required to sit through that discomfort all my life, right?

Like I'm constantly in these uncomfortable situations where people approach me and like touch my hair or tell me about their like black nanny and I'm like, why did you bring that up? Or like this one time I was at dinner and this woman was like, I don't listen to Michael Jackson. And I was like, why did you say that? Why are you bringing up Michael Jackson? What? And so, but it's just, I'm constantly being confronted with these politics, and I feel uncomfortable, so this is me exacting revenge.

Like, if I have to do this, you got to do it too. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Also, there's something in there where I feel like if anybody is authentically themselves, especially in a public space, like, I think that inherently has this effect. It's going to sound like such a modern, trite thing to say. But to truly be present and authentically yourself is, I think, a radical act.

Oh, thank you. And whether you do it or actually, I do think if anybody does it, it's just that so few people have the capacity to do it in any way that is witnessed by, like, large numbers of people, you know. Yeah. And even so, sometimes I'm like, don't share those opinions. because they don't deserve you. So I'm constantly negotiating with myself. How honest am I going to be right now? But I am not, I tried comedy for a very long time and was flopping.

You mean as a stand-up? As a stand-up, as a writer, flopping. Because I was trying so hard to be other people. And so I was just derivative. It's like, why would we want the derivative Steve Martin when Steve Martin's still alive and he's making hits still, you know? And so where I found my lane in my bag was me just being myself. When did you first interview somebody?

When did that become the thing? The first time I interviewed someone, I mean, who knows? Because this, like, my, this is so performative that it's, like, probably on stage, you know, like, probably an interaction for a group of people. I remember the first time, I actually remember the first time I ever baited someone was in high school. and it was deeply problematic but I remember that really well but yeah but on stage I would probably be

like what I shot in 2016 but I've been working through these jokes forever and high school was probably the first time I ever baited someone and I like remember their name and who I baited them with and it was really offensive and I won't say anything because what you said was offensive or would they absolutely what I said was offensive

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Audience, like, yeah, followers, whatever. Just like, I would get literally hundreds, hundreds of, like, racist things. And you'd be like, do you see this? Call them out. And I'd be like, oh, you know, like, I actually, like, am deeply traumatized by this. It actually really hurts, like, what, you know. And they wanted me to be sort of like this police attack dog, the bashed, someone who holds the mantle for all things that determine what is racist and what's not. So I cannot say that

Even though I have opinions It's like I don't want that job So is it some people's fault I'm sure some people are like Yeah I'm actively bad to the bone But I think by and large Most people are a product of their environments But some environments are flowers

And other environments are toxic waste And you get what you get Yeah I agree with that in large part I think understanding the difference between what is well fault and responsibility that's but regardless it's like what do they say um impact impact intention yeah intent like impact is not intent so you can mean so well and have negative impact exactly and then you have to be an adult and say this is an impact that I don't want how do I change myself how do I rectify and that's that's the

growth but we can't i i wish i was a nepo baby i can't control that i wasn't but now no what do i do with the cards that i have i have to move through life as is yeah or build a time machine i think that metaphor also though does kind of highlight not that the that we can like impact this necessarily but the importance also of like creating more gardens in society like how do you cultivate environments where people where actually it's not so hard to come up and and believe in the on the oneness of humanity and enacted or sort of work on removing prejudices that we all

have. So what are the conditions that allow that? It's a work every day you have to work to unlearn bullshit, myself included. Sometimes I'll have these biases and I'll think, why did I think that? And I'm human

because I'm human. And how do I change that? I can't change humanity, but I can certainly try to change myself. Yeah. Well, that is humanity. That's one person. I think you are changing humanity a little bit. Yes, one interview question at a time, or your money back. No, don't bring money to this. That just reminds me of when you asked, did you ask Drew Barrymore what money is?

Did I, no, who did I ask? Who was it Hannibal Burris? No. Or Nicole Byer? It was Nicole Byer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who I love, by the way. She's so funny. She's been in our show.

She's so funny. Yeah. That actually, I've been curious, what? What draws, who do you want on your show, you know, as it has existed? Like, that was kind, that's been a compelling question for me. Like, because you're sort of offering, on one hand, like, a platform and acceptance. And on the other, it's highly, uh, I mean, I think, I think a really great example is Michael Che.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. You know, where he was just like basically so nervous the whole time. But he came. And, you know, you wanted to do what you. you did, and you wanted him there. Like, so I'm kind of curious how, how, how, you know, not like a criteria list, but just what do you, what do you, what do you want when you want somebody on your show and, like,

what do you want to interview? This is a great question because I now have a follow-up question for you. So with how I decide who to interview, it comes down to who is honest, who is going to stand on what they believe 12 toes, like, because I don't love, we're in this, the, like, cancel culture element of people being afraid to just say what they think like just say it please just say it as opposed to harboring this

illness and then you like when you have whatever beliefs in your heart you still and like act on it you just people just don't know so I'd rather you just say it um and so those are my favorite guests are the people who say it and they say it and they're not

afraid they're not if like Chet Hanks was not afraid to double that and like those are the most compelling guess I actually find actors to be really hard because they're really aware of the camera and the artifice of it and so it's hard to penetrate into like who are you really

because all I want to do is have like a human connection like I think of it the interviews as scene partners working together and it's like if the interview is a successful because of me as it is because of you because it's like I can't talk to a brick wall so I must listen and like learn and

like move around as you dictate. I'm constantly reinventing re-evaluating who is interview worthy and what net positive am I contributing to discourse by talking to this individual and letting them be themselves? I don't have an answer.

But for me right now, it's who is going to be honest and does their honesty reflect actual tropes in media or is this just some random wild person? I wouldn't do a random wild person but I would do someone

who is like entrenched in like American pop culture. And what do you think somebody like that is coming on your show for? You know what I mean? I always thought the same thing with Allie G and the whole... Oh, yeah. You know, I was like, I mean, in his case, he was like deeply undercover. You're the opposite.

You're not... I can't hide. I wish I could hide, but I can't. Also, Allie G would, like, people would threaten to beat him up. I do not have the stomach for that. Okay, yeah, fair, fair. I know that he's like an extreme, but I do think you guys share... No, for sure.

No, I pull from him. I pull from Nathan Fielder a lot too. Okay. And Zach Gelfanakis. What do I say? Why do people do it? You'd have to ask them. I think some people like just want to do right and want to and think that it's a space for them to, to atone.

Other people like think it's funny and love the challenge of being in this space where they get to have like a rapport. I don't think we have debates like we used to. Like back in the day, you would have, you would have the Dick Cavett show. And James Baldwin would come up there And they would argue They would argue Buham Ali arguing And we don't really have that anymore

Like we just have celebrities being like This is my movie And here's a story about my movie And this is much more dynamic And the clips also sustain themselves Over years So like a clip that I shot Like in 2021

Is still just as current now As it was back then Because of the evergreen element to it So like attention I don't know You'd have to ask those people what's next for you because it feels to me like you surely have

you surely have some kind of team around you knowing you could build a lot like what like what's I'm curious I don't know people keep asking me that and I finished a book that's a lot so I wish I could say maybe when's the second one coming out you know I think the second one will come out in 10 years

so it's it's actually good but I'll talk about like doing Victoria's secret or like, you know, walking Muglare or something. Like, I would love to talk about like fashion and gender. But interviewing George Santos, hopefully, this week, like, that's the goal. Hopefully it's happened by the time this episode comes out.

I pray. He is such an iconic figure in American history. What an interesting one. Final question. If you could go back to 12-year-old, Zeeway. What would you say or do?

Honestly, I would tell her that everything that she needs, she already has. That's something that it's like the worst advice you get growing up that is actually the best advice is you always get told, be yourself, be yourself, be yourself. La, la, what does that mean? It's hard to penetrate. Yeah, what does that mean? But it's, but I, as I've gotten older, I realize that my keys to success are, within my reach and everything that I like it's here I was so doubtful of myself and I would be so envious of others seeing them thrive and thinking why don't I just have that why couldn't I

just figure out this before them and the truth is everything happened at its own time and if like looking back on my career it seems easy but it's like oh man I hustled and worked at a barbecue restaurant and I was miserable and all of those experiences contributed to me being the person I am today that is both artistically really like strong in my perspective but also as a human who has like grace and decorum and kindness and understanding that like all of the experiences that I went through make me into the human that I am that I am proud of but it's but it's hard to hear be yourself yeah you it's hard to hear it and And so I'll keep saying it, and I know that it sounds whack because it is whack, but it's like you know in your heart what you want to do.

And then all these external forces will try to beat it out of you. And you'll chase things because you think that that's what you should do. And it's like you know who you are. You know. And it's like it's because we went to school and we're told, this is not how you be yourself. I used to get told that all the time in my improv class. You know what my improv teacher would say? He made me cry because he said, I asked.

too many questions well jokes on him these questions are amazing so that is to say that just like just be loyal and support yourself because that's the only person

who will ride for you till the end thank you for coming on thanks for having me you're dabbing thank you thank you You know what I have stuck in my head?

I have like a New Year's Charlie Brown Christmas. Like, what's that song? All, all say, it's really, I can't think of it. What's the New Year's Eve song? It's like the passing of time. Silent night, no. No, no, no. That's Christmas.

That's Christmas. Okay. I don't know. What is it? Old Lang sign. I don't know that song. This is what we need to be playing. Penn, can you sing a little bit of this song?

For old lang. sign Fidelis Oh, can't Hold on In all the acquaintance We forgot Right

That's where it is Yeah Stitcher Stitcher