Pop Culture Happy Hour - All’s Fair And What’s Making Us Happy

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

Ryan Murphy’s latest show All’s Fair centers on an all-female law firm led by Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, and Niecy Nash-Betts. The high-powered law firm specializes in obtaining hefty divorce settlements for wealthy women. The show is barbed, nasty, over-the-top and maybe too much. It’s got us wondering: Is it fair that Murphy’s unleashed this utter silliness upon the world?See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

It's quite possible you're at least familiar with Ryan Murphy's latest project, All's Fair, because in terms of utter silliness, it's a doozy. It's about an all-female law firm led by, wait for it, Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, and Nisi Nash Betts. And true to the Murphy brand, the show is barbed and nasty, over the top and all around so much, maybe too much even for him. It's got us wondering, is it fair that he's unleashed this upon the world? I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Alls Fair on Pop-Futcher Happy Hour from NPR.

Joining me today is Volture TV critic, Roxanna Hadati. Welcome back, Roxanna. Hello, thank you for having me. It is great to have you here, Roxanna. Also here is Christina Tucker. She's the co-host of the podcast, Wait, is this a date. Welcome back to you to Christina. Hello, hello.

Get ready to pin your wigs back, team. The wigs are pinned. The makeup is done. The nether regions have been pricked and plodded. and plumped and all those things. Per God. Look, this show. My goodness.

Okay, so All's Fair stars Kim Kardashian as Allura Grant, Naomi Watts as Liberty Ronson, and Nisi Nash Betts as Emerald Green. That's redundant. Together, they form a high-powered law firm specializing in obtaining hefty divorce settlements for wealthy women. Their mentor and colleague is Dina Standish,

played by Glenn Close. Their sworn enemy is rival attorney Carrington Lane, played by who else, Sarah Paulson, who is basically inhaling the scenery whenever she's on screen. Boy, do I love coming here, walking down that hallway, shaped like a clown cervix. I hate you both so much that I'm specifically taking on clients now just to come here and make your life a living hell. Ooh, that is just a taste. When the ladies aren't fighting for their clients, they're dealing with their own personal problems, like a cheating ex who also happens to be an NFL player or negotiating a pre-nup with a fiat.

or difficulties dating at all because no one wants to be with a woman who's so rich and successful on her own. Ugh, this show is so relatable. Alls Fair is streaming on Hulu now, Christina. I'm going to start with you. Are you on board for Alls Fair? I am on board. And I need to say this because I feel like I resisted being on board. I said, maybe this is enough.

Maybe putting this one on screen is maybe just too far. Maybe we've let Ryan Murphy go too far. And yet. And yet. I sat there and sure, did I feel my brain shutting off as I watched? Absolutely. But did I feel my fist pumping in the air? As I heard every nonsensical line that came out of these actresses' mouths?

Yes. Also that. And at the end of the day, I'm always going to be here for Ryan Murphy letting older women do insane things on screen because no one else is letting them do anything. So let's go. throw a tea kettle, Glenn. I want to see that. Okay. Tyler Perry would like a word, but I hear you, Christina. Roxanna, come on. What are we doing here?

I mean, I am on board, but I'm, like, on board in the way that Kate Winslet was, like, clutching the door at the end of Titanic where you're like, I don't actually know if this is good. Like, I'm, like, holding on for dear life. I'm seeing all my hopes and dreams sink to the bottom of the ocean. I do think that it is fun, and I think it's fun because it's a nighttime soap, right? Like, we all sort of miss the nighttime soap. Yellowstone is essentially a nighttime soap. Like, all shows are basically this format. Yes.

But I do appreciate that this show isn't trying to do anything other than what it's doing, right? Like, it fully knows that these characters are ludicrous, and these problems apply to, like, like the point one-one-one percent. It is girl-bossing fully in the mode of, like, 2011. You know what I mean? Like, it's... So, yeah, I mean, it is, like, lowest difficulty setting. Exactly.

Absolutely. Yeah. But I think I personally am very tired of shows that use the girl boss format for some sort of, like, political statement. Like, I never want to watch the diplomat again, homeland. is like, blah. But I don't know. There's something about this that I'm like, oh, they're fighting about jewelry.

How quaint. How pleasant. It bizarrely does have a quaint energy. Like, I don't know how because some of the words you're hearing are far from quaint, let me assure you. But still watching it, it does have an energy that's like, yeah, this is a soap opera that I feel kind of charmed by. Like, there is something quaint about it.

Fully what I think it's trying to do is like, what if the goal. girls were lawyers. And there's something about that that is, I don't know, very familiar. And I think just weirdly tolerable for me personally. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the Golden Girls because that definitely came up for me as I was watching this. And I just completed a very slow first time watch of the entire series of the Golden Girls. So it was fresh in my mind. Top of mind. Yes, very, very top of mind. I got to say, you know, look, I have a extremely high tolerance for trash TV. I have watched a lot of really bad reality TV. If you've listened long enough, you know that, like, I've watched pretty much every episode of Teen Mom. Like, I have

no druthers about watching and digging into the muck. There's something about this show, though, for all the reasons you actually mentioned, it's just like repelling me away from enjoying this. I kind of love that. Yes, it's a show that knows what it is, but I think it knows what it is too well. Like, it's winking too hard at me. I feel like Ryan Murphy has, has now reached a tipping point. And I am not by any means like a Ryan Murphy completeist, who could be and still live a fulfilling life. Like, no one has time to watch everything he's put his stamp on. But, you know, I go back as far as one of his first shows popular, which I remember watching when I was probably too young to be watching it, but I definitely watched it,

loved it. I've watched the feuds. I've watched, you know, American crime stories. I've never been into American Horror Story. That's not my thing. And I've watched Hollywood, the sort of memory hold really not great show that like sort of fan fix this idea of like mid-century Hollywood, classic Hollywood being more perressive like than it ever was and ever even is now. So I enjoy Ryan Murphy and Benson Pieces. I do think on this show it seems very meme forward. It feels like a show that is intended to be so over the top that it's not anymore like for me anyway. And so to see Sarah Paulson getting off all of these barbs and jabs and frequently referring to, you know, body parts and being like the staunch anti-feminist who's like, I don't care about women. Like, it's every person for

themselves. There's something just about it that I can't latch on to and enjoy. And I want mindless things, but this one felt beyond mindless for me. It felt as though I was just retreating into the dark abyss of nothingness. And I wish I had the joy that you both have. I'm so fascinated to hear this. Aisha really said hello darkness, my old friend. Truly, about this show. I did. I mean, I understand where that feeling comes from.

It's not that I can't see approaching this show with that kind of energy. And I quite honestly, I think for probably the first half of the first episode, I was like, is this going to be fun enough to deserve my attention and time? And I think it almost manages to succeed almost exclusively on the strength of the sudden switch we make. I think it's an episode four or five onto Carrington Lane, Sarah Paulson's character. Yes, yeah. Giving her some more dimension. I was like, well, first of all, this show should just simply be about this woman.

I don't really understand what we're doing here. Yes, I agree with that. There was something about like that slight bit of dimension that I was like, okay, I'm ready to hang my hat on that. And yeah, I mean, there are some moments where I was like, is it possible that this is everyone who's involved in this show creating a Shutter Island scenario for Kim Kardashian specifically? I don't know. It's possible. It's just something I'm wondering. But it is really has been just making me giggle. And unfortunately, a large part of my joy is just the giggles that come from hearing Glenn Close say things like, I'll pack you a lunch with Peppered Farm Goldfinn. What? Yeah. Here's what I'll say. Fun is a subjective word.

Yes, as we know. And so I would hesitate to say that episodes in their entirety are fun. I think the thing we sort of have to talk about is that each episode has sort of this like a plot with what's happening in this law firm. And so there's always sort of like a divorce case. And this is where you get your guest stars, right? Like Elizabeth Berkeley for like five minutes, Jennifer Jason Lee. Jessica Simpson. Jessica Simpson.

Jessica Simpson. And Rick Springfield, bring her older husband. Exactly. They ate down. I'll say it. You get that classic like nip-tuck Dr. Odyssey format of like, here's this like recurring hamster wheel of guest stars. I personally enjoy Murphy's work best when he has sort of like a short attention span.

And I think this is why I don't react as well to like Monster and to the other. and to the other miniseries, which are really like the classic miniseries problem of a movie that stretched to like 10 or 13 episodes, I think he does better episodically. And so I think like, you know, that 15 minutes of Jessica Simpson like screaming at her ex, that's fine with me. And I do think that like as the show has sort of changed, there are elements of it being like a murder mystery. all of a sudden. It's like a portrait of Carrington Lane. Like, it's doing different enough things that each episode to me, I'm like, I honestly have no idea where this is going to go.

Yes, yes. But I know that we're going to hear the C word so many times. So many times. So many times. We might as well be in England over here. Hanging with the land. Yes. Yes.

That sort of A plot B plot thing also kind of reminds me of like the earlier seasons of scandal where it was like, you know, the white hats. We're going to try and clean up these messes for all these, you know, very important people, politicians, whatever. But even Nacho had a little bit of, yes, it was also ridiculous. And I think Shonda Rimes and Ryan Murphy kind of sometimes play in similar sandboxes. I've already mentioned Tyler Perry. I also put, you know, Lee Daniels in there as well.

100%. Yeah. For me, I guess it's like, I think I would be more okay with all of this, like, ludicrousness. if it wasn't so raw, raw for the 1% like sisterhood. And so many scenes are like, we're going to do this. We're dealing with this. And then it's like, but you know, it's so hard being rich and successful woman. Like it's impossible to do this.

And we have to live up to all these expectations. And I'm like, well, okay, you cast freaking Kim Kardashian. I'm just going to say, I don't like her. I don't think she's a good actress. I think she. No, she is not. That is not a revelation here. No, it is not.

Anyone who's seen Tyler Perry's temptation, confessions of a marriage counselor, knows that she is not, or even American Horror Story, like she is not an actress. No. But this is clearly a show that's sort of pulling, if not directly from her own life, as someone who has been married and divorced several times and who is very rich and wealthy. There's just something that doesn't sit right with my soul, watching her sort of play this role of a woman who, and I believe she believes that she is someone who is like four or one. And I'm just like, okay, but really, this is, again, as you said, Roxanna, very 1%

rah-rah. And if it didn't hammer so hard on those points, I think I would be able to enjoy it more. But those points make it ickier for me in a way. Yeah. I do think some of that meta-commentary, especially around like the scenes specifically where they're all talking about like the surgeries and procedures that Allora goes through. So the other day, I did this new miracle laser that makes the time. tiniest microscopic holes in the skin that stimulate collagen. There's also the most wonderful

new long-lasting filler formulated from salmon sperm. That was really the moment to me that kind of stood out as I like, are we having our cake and eating it too? Because the message of that was like, definitely don't get plastic surgery unless you want to. And then that's fine. It was just kind of like, yeah. Okay, but then why is this conversation here? And a lot of the conversations kind of felt like that. like they were kind of introducing a very special episode energy to like today we're talking about this at the table with the girls. Yes. Yes.

And something I wrote in my notes was that I underestimated like the sleepover energy that it would have. Like I didn't really expect sleep over in the law. Yeah. I just like didn't really expect like the amount of like girlies giggling around somehow a roaring fireplace every four seconds even though you're in L.A. Yeah. I was a little delighted by that but also kind of like interesting that this is like very

special. And then also, you know, adding in the B plots are always like, hello, here's a perfect plot to comment on what someone is going through in the cast. We will explain exactly how this woman deserves money because she was involved in this marriage and this work and et cetera, et cetera. The same score will play. It will swell at the moment and everyone will nod. And I'm just kind of, again, I come back to quaint. I'm like, that feels quaint to me. Yeah. And I do think this sort of like broader question is hanging over everything, which is like, how long can they keep getting away with this. Like they have been renewed.

It's been renewed. Yes, for season two. Yeah, it's already been renewed. So clearly like we're dealing with an Emily in Paris or the hate watches fueling the renewal situation. Yes. Yeah. But I do think like when I actually try to think about the politics of the show, there is clearly

like the show thinks it's doing an intersectional feminism thing, right? Because like the cast involves people of like various races, like various backgrounds, like, backgrounds, et cetera. Hari Neff is in it. Hari Neff is slaying in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think all of the clients have been white, if I'm remembering correctly. So far at the time of this taping, yes, that is another thing.

I've been like, okay, so we've just got all these rich white women that we're catering to. I mean, again, this is like a classic Ryan Murphy thing. When you stare at the show too long, like Cthulhu appears and the abyss opens up and we all get pulled inside. Guys, this is why I'm saying it's Shutter Island. Yeah, like it resists any type of, like, logical point of view. Aside again from that, like, 2012, yes, go girl, do everything you want. Nothing is bad as long as you choose to do it wave of feminism. And so maybe I'm watching it out of, like, nostalgia for what we lived through.

And I do think there is something. in our kind of current online like, LOL, I'm just a girl trad wife content. I am kind of like, fine, bring me back a girl boss. Like, bring me back a girl who's working. Well, there's also going to be a new devil wears Prada soon. So we are firmly recycling and going back into that era. Listen, I mean, the All's Fair season two, screening at the wing, it'll all be back. Oh, God, the wing. Yeah, yeah. I just look at this and I think like, where is the middle ground here? I feel like there is, you know, we have this moment where women, actresses like Glenn Close and Sarah Paulson and Naomi Watts, they are wading in the muck, I would say, of Ryan Murphy very glomerously. But like, is this that different from when women like Betty Davis and Joan Crawford had to like sort of uglify themselves in movies that I think hold up better than, you know, you would expect? I think whatever happened to Baby Jane is a classic. And of course, Ryan Murphy did a whole season about. Behind the scenes of that film, which I think it's actually very good.

I loved the way they kind of attack that. And that's what I think, like, I find so fascinating about Ryan Murphy is even with all the ways, I think he's kind of made things sometimes, if not worse for women of a certain age, it's lowered the bar for what we want from them. It's like, yes, I'm sure they're having fun. These women clearly enjoy working with him, good for them, but also, like, to what end? And while they get to look nicer and they get to have better. jobs and not be necessarily cast as, you know, old hags as like, you know, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford had to do and women in previous eras had to do. At the same time, I don't know if it's that much more progressive. Even just the way they handle sexual assault on this show with

U.T. Nash-Betz's character, it's the one time the show seems to be trying to do things seriously in a way that could apply to women who aren't just rich and white. It felt icky. to me. I was like, oh, okay, so they're going to try to do this. Like, this could happen to anyone. This is perils of being a woman in the world. And then at the end for them to be like, no, this is payback for another larger crime later on. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. A Ponzi scheme thing. Also, like, how would that actually be? I have no idea. I have no idea. It's kind of why I'm desperate to watch the next episode, frankly. You know, I kind of like it better if you're pulling this back and at least saying this is very specific to this, like, tiny insular world.

and we're not trying to comment on larger pings because, yeah, when it was like, oh, yeah, this could happen to anybody. I was like, I'm not loving the energy you guys are bringing to this. I don't like this at all. The explanation for that just felt so, like, how do you pull that out of your butt? Like, how does anyone, I'm sorry, it's, it's, yeah. Again, like, this to me is like, we are an audience who is watching it with, like, an ironic level of detachment. Or speaking for myself, I don't want to speak for you with.

I am watching it with an ironic level. of detection. No, I'm dialed in. And so, like, accepting all of these things as, like, fully ludicrous. But I'm thinking about how, like, on Dr. Odyssey, wasn't, like, Joshua Jackson's character, like, Patient Zero for COVID? Like, we just live in these absurd, fantastical Ryan Murphy worlds. And so I almost feel like he isn't someone who I want talking about the realities of life. That part. I think. That's part of what bothers me with the monster franchise is because it is trying to do this very true crime affects us all. It is like a cultural scourge. I'm doing it, but it's a cultural scourge. When it's really with this, it's like maybe I'm just so like accustomed to the world not depicting realistic women that at least in this way there's something about it that I am being moderately. entertained by, while also being completely aware that this show is, like, in no technical way good?

Oh, yeah. Sure. I get that. I absolutely get that. And I think, you know, again, if it was just that show, if it was just kind of silly, I think I would be able to, like, digest this better. But it sounds like you all plan to continue watching this into season two. Am I correct?

Is this? Wow. Into season two is bold. at least until the end of season one. Yeah. I will probably finish this season, but as to what happens after that, I'm not so sure. Yeah. I mean, we'll see.

I'm curious to see how quickly they're able to get season two off the ground because, you know, Kim Kardashian's probably going to be trying to take the bar again. I don't know if she's going to have time. Like, who knows? Like, if we could all have such hilarious, like, failures on our resumes that are like, you know what, though? like she keeps doing it good for her. That's the show.

She fails, but she keeps doing it good for her. That's All's Fair, like in a statement. That should be the season two tagline. Well, it sounds like we all had varying responses to the show. You've probably watched the show if you're listening to this episode. Tell us what you think about All's Fair. Find us on Facebook at Facebook.com slash BCHH. Up next, we're going to talk about what's making us happy this week.

Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week what's making us happy. Christina, going to start with you. Woo-hoo. As ever, this time of year, it's fall. I crave a mystery novel. And this time I said, I'm going back in time. I've read a lot of current mysteries. I said, what about ones I'm missing?

What about my girl Dorothy Sayers? Let me tell you, friends, sign up for a Dorothy Sayers read. You will have the time of your life. I'm here to specifically wreck the trio. of strong poison, half as carcass, and gaudy night. They are so romantic in a way that we don't really write books anymore and kind of made me feel like I was really swept up in romance in a way that I haven't felt in a while with also like fun, silly murder mysteries happening all around. And a foppish lord, like this is all I need, you know? So Dorothy Sayers, strong poison,

have his carcass, and Goddy Knight specifically, a gorgeous trio of fun, perfect for fall, mystery novels. Thank you so much, Christina. I love a good mystery novel, and somehow I have not read Dorothy Sayers. So thank you for that recommendation. Yes, yes. Roxanna, what is making you happy this week? I mean, we all know this because we all cover TV. But I feel like at this point, I am watching like two seasons of television a week.

And it's like too much for my brain. It's like very overwhelming. But it's our job. So I have been trying to, like, improve my memory, I would say, because I feel like it is so inundated with, like, just all of these television shows. So I have really gone back to the early days of my childhood, my formative years. And I'm watching Jeopardy again. It is making me so happy. New episodes.

Like, we watch Jeopardy every night as a family. So did I when I was a kid. Yeah, we watched it every night. I am humbled every night by how much I don't know. know, but it really feels like if I'm watching All's Fair, I, like, also need to watch Jeopardy. Yeah. I need to balance it somehow. So that's what's making me happy, like getting back into the Jeopardy grind.

I love that. Yeah. And now it's available on Peacock. So that's great to know. Man, I miss Jeopardy. That really was appointment viewing for, like, I don't know, 10, 15 years in my life. And somehow it just kind of fell off. But thank you, Roxana.

Well, what's making me happy this week is the best. Valid of Wallace Island. This is a charming British dramedy that came out earlier this year. I was actually kind of shocked how much I enjoyed this. It's like not necessarily in my wheelhouse, but it stars Tim Key as a quirky widower who he basically hires this defunct indie rock folk duo to reunite for a concert on a remote island where he lives. They're played by Tom Bazden and Carrie Mulligan. It doesn't go over quite as well as Tim Key's character expects. The duel broke up both professionally and romantically on not great terms. And so they haven't spoken in years. But, obviously, there's definitely some tension and some awkward moments and just kind of cringe things that

happened. But it's also fun. It's heartwarming. I feel like it's a nice pick for a family, friend movie night during the holidays. It's very delightful. The performances are great. And Key and Bazin actually co-wrote the script for this. So it's fun. It's charming. Really enjoyed it. That is the Ballad of Wallace Island, and you can find it streaming on Prime and on VOD. And that's what's making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org slash pop culture newsletter. That brings us to the end of our show.

Roxanna Hadati, Christina Tucker. Thanks so much for being here, even if I completely disagree with you on Alls Fair. This was so much more fun than watching the show, in fact. Thank you. What an honor. Thank you. This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Caitlin Latimore, and Mike Katzith, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamen, provides our theme music.

Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next week.