Pop Culture Happy Hour - Babygirl

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

In the new movie Babygirl, Nicole Kidman plays a high-powered CEO who has an affair her mysterious intern (Harris Dickinson). Their affair gets complicated by the many power dynamics involved — not just in the office, but also in a sexual relationship defined by dominance and submission.Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture.Subscribe to NPR Plus at plus.npr.org or make a gift at donate.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

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In the new movie Baby Girl, a high-powered CEO has an effective. affair with a mysterious intern at her company. Nicole Kidman stars as the CEO, while the intern is played by Harris Dickinson. Their affair gets complicated by the many power dynamics involved, not just in the office, but also in a sexual relationship defined by dominance and submission. I'm Linda Holmes. And I'm Stephen Thompson. Today we are talking about Baby Girl on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining us today is our co-host, Aisha Harris. Hey, Aisha. Hey, Aisha. Hey, Stephen. It is a pleasure to have y'all here. In the opening moments of Baby Girl, a tech CEO named Romi is having passionate sex with her husband. She's played by Nicole Kidman and he's played by Antonio Banderas. We quickly

learn, however, that things aren't quite right. She wants more than she's getting from her marriage. It's a situation that gets extremely complicated when Romy meets one of her company's new interns. His name's Samuel, he's played by Harris Dickinson, and there's something strange about the way he talks to her. He's presumptuous and demanding in ways that seem to both repel and intrigue her. Soon enough, they're having an affair that's rooted in power exchange. As she explores her submissive side in dramatic sex scenes, the power balance between them keeps shifting and their relationship grows increasingly complicated, with tremendous risks to her marriage and family, as well as both of their careers.

Baby Girl was written and directed by Helena Rain, who also made the film Bodies, Bodies, Bady Girl is in theaters now. Linda, I'm going to start with you. What did you think a baby girl? You know, I mostly thought this was a good movie. I think that it benefits a lot from good lead performances. I think what I found intriguing about it was the way that, and you kind of alluded to this, the way that it mixes a variety of, you know, the kind of capital P power that she has because she's the CEO and he's an intern, which I think is, to me, the most important.

power dynamic in terms of analyzing the relationship. But there are also a lot of kind of lowercase P power dynamics in the sense that she has kind of this interest in submission and playing out scenarios of that in their affair. It demonstrated to me the ways in which it's not actually that difficult to tell what she enjoys and what parts of it are him genuinely not respecting the boundaries that she tries to then put around it. And again, this all sounds like you're saying, well, they're both wrong. She's the CEO of the company. That's not what I'm saying. But within the relationship that they have, there's also an issue of the difference between her enjoying a submissive relationship with him, but also her wanting to be able to say, here are the boundaries of it. Here are the things

I actually do not want you to do, such as showing up at my house, for example. And his desire to transgress not just the boundaries that are part of the scenarios they're playing out, but the boundaries that are legitimately her boundaries, right? I don't necessarily think the movie comes to a lot of conclusions about, you know, who is right and who is wrong. I think it's just kind of exploring the many different ways in which it's kind of impossible for this to be an ethical relationship. Yeah. Especially because of obviously, like I said, that capital P power that she has over kind of his economic existence, but also because of the different ways that they're interacting. Yeah, I mean, plus one to everything Linda said. But also, during my screening,

about 10-ish minutes in, the cackles started coming and then they didn't stop, really. I mean, I don't know if we had a particularly giggly audience. Yeah, that didn't happen at mine. Some of the audience members in mind seemed a little bit younger. I don't know if maybe they were Like, because this is such a very sexual movie, it is, you know, I know the kids these days, I'm like, I don't want to blanket them all with this, but a lot of younger people have lately, at least online, been kvetching about there being too much sex, even though some of us older people have been like, well, we feel like there's not enough sex. This feels like just the right amount of sex, in my opinion. And so maybe this might make some people uncomfortable or giggle because they're uncomfortable. But this movie, it was hard for me to take too seriously. It is, as Linda said, interested in positing these ideas and thoughts around power dynamics and what it means to be a woman in power and a woman who also has sexual agency to some extent,

even though she somehow can't tell her husband of how many years that she's not satisfied. It's 2024. I don't know. I don't know what to say here. Once I was able to sort of let go of the fact that this movie doesn't quite play out the way I expected it to. It's labeled an erotic thriller, but I found it more erotic than thrilling, especially towards the end. This does not kind of veer in the same direction as like an Adrian Line movie. No, no, no, no, no.

It does not do that. Once I got over that and just took it for what it was, which is like really strong performances, some funny and also some sexy moments, I was just like, you know what? this is fun. This is a fun movie that I don't think, like, you need to think too deeply about. But I'm curious, Stephen, I know that you were kind of struggling with this, or like, you were still processing this long after the movie ended from what I've gleaned from you. What did you think? Yeah, and I agree, really, with everything both of you have said about it. I think there are strong performances. I sort of in some ways felt like it's like thought-provoking without being interesting. I was reminded several times watching this film of a classic Onion headline from way back.

Romantic comedy behavior gets real-life man arrested. We're like watching the way this kid talks to her in their early interactions in this film. I felt like needed a subtitle and arrows pointing like, don't try this at home. Like anyone talking to someone with the power dynamic that they have kind of intrinsically, the way he speaks to her is incredibly foolish. And I am somebody, and y'all's mileage may vary, but I'm somebody who sometimes struggles when I watch a film and I think this entire film unravels if anybody just has a conversation. Yes. And obviously, this is true to the way many couples operate. I don't mean to suggest that it's unrealistic.

But it is sort of shocking the way, like, these people have reached the ages they have reached and not ever had a conversation about what they want. There is an extremely chilling scene. And Linda kind of alluded to this between Samuel and Romy about consent. That is one of the most coercive conversations I have seen in TV or movies about consent. Like, he is explicitly coerceding. her and kind of blackmailing her in a conversation in which he is sort of demanding her consent. Yeah. And it is genuinely unsettling to watch.

And it's important to separate my frustration with characters in a movie from my frustration with the movie. Because these are not supposed to be avatars for how people should act in these scenarios. They are flawed characters who are screwing up and that conflict is. why we're watching the movie. But it was at times sort of baffling watching these characters navigate these things without ever having a healthy conversation about it. Yeah, I get what you're saying. At the same time, I think one of the things the movie is about is the way that shame can be very dangerous for people. And so one of the things that you eventually learn about Romy is that, and I was grateful for this, it's not a thing where she's like,

Once I became a CEO and I was in charge all the time, I just needed somebody to sometimes be in charge of me. It's not that. She says I've always felt this way. I've always had these desires and she's always been deeply, deeply ashamed of them. And I think that is a thing that can really happen. And because she is so deeply ashamed of these feelings and these desires, she doesn't talk about them with her husband. She just assumes this is all deviant and bad, and I shouldn't feel it. And so she tries to ignore it.

And because she feels shame about it, she's very vulnerable to, first of all, making bad decisions herself as getting involved with the intern. But she's also very vulnerable to being shamed by other people in a sense where she's being treated disrespectfully. But because she's so ashamed, she has no willingness to kind of defend. herself. And it's because it's not an ethical way to have this relationship, right? Yeah, I think that's a really great point, Linda. And I see that. And I think the more I think about this, the more I feel as though the shame aspect of it is the part for me that really clicks in this movie of all the sort of different threads that the filmmakers pulling on here. Like, that to me is the one that is manifested the most clearly. There's a moment where Romi and Samuel are having what I believe was their first

encounter, like their first sexual encounter, explicitly sexual encounter in a hotel room. And it's a very, very long take of him doing things to her. And we get a close-up of her face. And in that long, very long take, which I think is, you know, this is Nicole Kinman at her height peak. And her actingist. Actingist, but in the best way possible. She is firing and also like just here. You see her face, like, wash over with pleasure. And then, like, oh my god I shouldn't be like you can see she's like I think at one point she kind of like

tries to cover her mouth or something like she's clearly both enjoying it and hating herself at the same time and that to me is so clearly drawn and probably one of my favorite scenes in the movie where I think I kind of felt more of a disconnect or felt as though it was a little bit more muddied and I couldn't tell if it was muddied because this was intentional or muddied because it's just not trying to dig too deeply into it is the character. of Esme, her assistant, who is played by Sophie Wild. Sophie Wilde is great, by the way. I didn't realize she was the actress from the great horror movie.

Talk to Me. And she's here now playing a Romy's assistant who's like, she's a black woman. That is not really delved into too much. But the fact that she's like trying to get her, she keeps asking, can we talk about my promotion? Can we talk about my promotion? And there's a conversation of the two of them have where Esme is, you know, she's saying I know about this affair and then, you know, but it doesn't quite play out the way you would expect it to. And I wasn't quite sure what the director was trying to say about this idea of power and a woman, like, if the rules were reversed, if this was a man who is doing this versus what a woman is doing here, how would we feel about that? And that also leads me into sort of like the ending, which we won't spoil too much. But I felt the ending, it leaves a lot of ends like too need.

tightly tied up in a way that made me wonder, you know, is it progress or is this just, I don't want to say lazy, but it didn't connect for me. I don't know, Steven, you look like you might understand what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it kind of speaks to this film's ambiguity and how much of it is a Rorschach test. How happy, how satisfying you're supposed to find that ending, I think, is going to vary so widely from viewer to viewer. I, as I was watching this film, I did a occasionally paused to dread the discourse around it. I also think the discourse around it may end up being part of it because I think each person is going to have a different reaction to how these things played out and how satisfying you're supposed to think that ending is and how each one of

us is supposed to feel about these different power dynamics in play, including the ones involving Esme, who in a way I at least appreciated kind of having somebody to root for because it was hard to root for anyone in this central relationship. Yeah, it's interesting because I think I found this to be a movie that in a way was refreshing because I don't think it's trying to reach conclusions, as I said, about who is right and who is wrong, except that I think, you know, it's very clear that this is an offense against her marriage, and it's very clear that this is inappropriate because she's the boss. Yeah.

Everything beyond that, it's a much more. kind of gray area. And to me, it was interesting to see a film where I think they're really just positing the existence of this woman and her experience. I certainly felt by the end of the movie, like I knew and understood her and who she is and how she comes to do the things that she does. The shame is the thing that is the most toxic for her and the most damaging because it's the thing that holds her back the most. from handling this preference that she has in a way that's, you know, more healthy and ethical. Yeah. And to be clear, I think I'm still trying to work out sort of what the film reveals about this idea of power and especially power as understood between two women.

Oh, for sure. For sure. But also this is a movie where there's an entire dance sequence, like not since the Keanu movie. movie starring Keen Peel has George Michael's father figure been used so effectively. Oh my God. It's kind of silly and I think that is one of the things I like about is that I think it understands that some of this

yes, it is ethically gray but also some of it is kind of silly in a way and silly in a way that is not judgmental at least. Even though the character of Romi might have a lot of shame it's very clear that like this is not a film that is trying to

shame her. And I admired that about it. Yeah, I think the one asterisk I would put next to this, I do kind of wish they had just left out the parts that allude to her having experienced childhood trauma. Yeah. Like, not every transgressive sex act is rooted in childhood trauma. Because it's kind of tucked into the dialogue in such a perfunctory way, I wish they had just left it out. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Because I think the people are so interesting. And I, You know, we've talked a lot about Romy and who she is and how she operates. But I also think that Harris Dickinson and this is really interesting.

And this kid is so the thing I like about it is that he's not that fascinating. No. Like he is sometimes menacing, but also kind of a doofus at certain moments. And you feel like it's not like he's some kind of master player. and he's so magical and he's been at this for years and knows how to manipulate people. I think this kid is like, he's kind of goofy in some ways. Yes. But also, it's just that he listens to her and kind of tries to get a feel for what's going on.

Go ahead, Aisha, sorry. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. And I also think to that point, he's not that. But I think there are moments where we see that he thinks he's not. And it's like, oh, my goodness. Because he talk about the power imbalance. Like at one point, he really does say, like, I have power over you. You are the one who has more to lose than I do.

I guess that's where I get, I also kind of trip over like, okay, what is this trying to say about power? Because it did to me in many ways kind of suggest like, okay, like people who enter into these situations as people empower. Having gone through Me Too and all these other things, it's like you can see a little bit of that in that interaction. between him and her where he's like, well, this could all end for you, even though, like, in reality, that's not necessarily really how it works. Although, would it, is that how it would work for a woman? I was wondering that same thing. I don't know. So it's like, it's, it's tricky. This movie is messy, and I think that's what I admire most about it. And if I'm going to see Nicole Kinman play yet another very rich, powerful woman who has secrets.

Makes terrible decisions. Like, this is one of the better examples of this. I'm for it. I'm here for it. Yeah. I was happy to see her doing this rather than another, like, kind of rich, chilly, distant. Brittle socialite. Brittle socialite.

Yeah, perfect. And I did appreciate that I think this calls on more the kind of more daring part of her repertoire. and her willingness to kind of, you know, do things that are a little bit, you know, out there. And eyes wide shut a little bit here. Like, that's what I kept making. For sure. And I did like that. And I was happy to see that.

And I'll tell you, I just, Harris Dickinson just, who I first saw in The Iron Claw, in which he played one of the wrestling brothers. Also, beach rats. I highly recommend beach rats. Yeah. Yeah. I think he is in this movie does. a great job of sort of really keeping you in suspense about, not suspense, but like, really keeping it very ambiguous. What exactly is up with this guy?

Yeah. What's this kid's deal? I kept asking, what is this kid's deal? And it should be noted, it's a Christmas movie. Like, diehard. Yes, a Christmas movie. That talks about cookies and milk. It's very on brand. That's right. It does. It does. My goodness. There's milk for Santa. There's milk for everyone. All right. We want to. We want to. to know what you think about baby girl, find us on Facebook at Facebook.com slash PCH and on letterboxed at letterboxed.com slash NPR Pop Culture. We'll have a link in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show, Linda Holmes, Aisha Harris. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you, Stephen. This episode was produced by Ramele Wood and Lenin Sherburn. It was edited by Jessica

Reedy and Mike Katzif. And Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Tom. and we will see you all tomorrow.