Pop Culture Happy Hour - Black Doves

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

The new Netflix series Black Doves is a pulpy and stylish British spy show starring Keira Knightly and Ben Whishaw. Knightly plays a politician's wife who's been secretly funnelling information to a mysterious spy network for years, and Whishaw plays her old partner who's been out of the game. But when Knightly's character gets targeted, Whishaw's returns to protect her. It's all set in London at Christmastime, so if you like your holiday cheer spiced with British wit and gunplay, Black Doves may be for you. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

The new Netflix series Black Doves is a pulpy and stylish British spy show starring Kira Knightley and Ben Wishaw. Knightley plays a politician's wife who's been secretly funneling information to a mysterious spy network for years, and Wishaw plays her old partner who's been out of the game. But when Knightley's character gets targeted and bodies start piling up, Wishaw returns to protector. And it's all set in London at Christmas time. So if you like your holiday cheer spiced with British wit and a really surprising amount of gunplay, Black Doves may be for you. I'm Glenn Weldon, and today we're talking about Black Dobs on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is Vulture TV critic, Roxana Haddadi. Hey, Roxanna. Hello. Hello. Also with us

Kristen Meinser. She co-hosts the Daily Fail, the podcast that does comedic close readings of the tabloids. Hey, Kristen. Hi, great to be back. Great to have you. All right, so Black Doves stars Kira Knightley as Helen, the wife of the UK Defense Minister. She's got a comfortable life, great house, and sweet kids, but it's a cover. She's actually a highly placed spy who's providing valuable information to an organization that sells that intel to the highest bidder. But when the man with whom she's been having an affair is murdered, her handler summons Helen's old colleague Sam back to London to watch her back. Sam is a queer champagne-swilling assassin who used to work closely with Helen before he was forced to leave the UK for mysterious reasons. He's played by Ben Wishaw. Helen and Sam get

run into an escalating and increasingly, some would say, absurdly violent conflict involving London gangs, a couple of deadpan assassins, both the British and Chinese governments, and Sam's old boyfriend. Black Doves is streaming on Netflix now and has already been picked up for a second season. So, Roxanna, let's kick off with you. What you think? I loved it, like a lot. I have such a huge smile on my face because I am very tired, I think, of spy shows that try to be realistic. I'm no longer interested in that. I only want like John Wick, Guy Ritchie style, very complicated like underground that have like entire worlds of characters. And I thought that this did that really well. The chemistry is so good. I think the action is so good. It really

made me think of gangs of London that is more fun or the gentleman that doesn't make me feel as trashy for liking it. So I had a really good time. All right. So threads a needle, you would say. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Kristen, what did you make of it? You know, I think the cast is excellent. I think the dark, brooding atmosphere is well done. It did a good job of grabbing me immediately, but I just wanted more from this series. I wanted more action. I wanted more surprises. I wanted more intrigue. I wanted more of what the trailer is promising us. The trailer really makes it look like it's nonstop, but there are actually lots of very slow scenes on this show. A lot of moments of just quiet. I'm not here for quiet. I'm here for spies, being spies at Christmas

time, and killing it. And they're not always killing it. They're frequently just looking at each other quietly. Okay. Oh, man. All right. This is a good spread. I like this spread here. I'm going to come down more in the, in the Roxana camp, because I just rolled over like a golden retriever for this show. I let scratch my belly. I can't explain why, though, because I had some of the same issues you did. And I also, I think I came into it wrong. I thought this was going to be what it very much is not, which is going to be, I thought it was going to be cozy British spy stuff that's kind of delighting in the mundane and the punch of clock and the paper pushing side of espionage, like John La Cray, like Slough. Horses. I would not recommend this show to a slow horses fan because this is pulpy, fantasy, just shy of silly, right? Just a few notches shy of Bond. I think it's unrealistic in a kind of hilarious way. Yeah. I lost count of the number of ferocious gun battles taking place on completely empty streets in the center of London, a place that has more CCTV cameras than people, right?

Or characters having secret conversations in incredibly echoey stairwells. And I'm like, guys, there's a, there's a room right there. You could just go off into that room and have this incredibly perilous conversation. There are characters who invade gang hideouts and they would get picked off as soon as they crossed the threshold. But they managed to kind of sail through the hideout and just gun people down like it's nothing. And then there's the main thing about the show, the promise that the show makes, which is that Helen is this incredibly public figure, right? She's the wife of the defense minister. So it's setting up boundaries for itself.

And you think what the show is going to do is spend six episodes navigating those boundaries. You know, how is she going to live that spy life inside those boundaries? The way it deals with those boundaries is by ignoring them completely. She's married to the defense minister, and yet she can slip off in the dead of night to do whatever the hell she wants. Yeah. She can have these incredibly violent fights in her kitchen while her kids and her husband just does upstairs. So this isn't cozy La Cray. It's cozy Guy Ritchie.

There are so many guns in this thing. There's a rocket launcher at one point, Roxanna. There's a rocket launcher. And they need the rocket launcher. Okay, it's not extraneous. It's very necessary. I mean, it's Guy Ritchie, like, without the racism and sexism, right? Like, it's... Yeah, yeah, there you go. And I say that as a fan of Guy Ritchie at certain points. Like, this is more about, like, the knightly and wishaw relationship, I think, than any of the logic of this woman would be surrounded by security at all times, right? This is about, like, the conversations that are happening in this pristine, beautiful brown. BMW, as the two of them talk about, like, the emotional weight of their lives. And I think that, for me, scratches, like, the Americans' itch of we're spies and sometimes we're really sad. But I do understand if you want more of that action stuff, then maybe you want more of the knife

fights, right? Like, Kristen, did you like the action? Or were you also underwhelmed by the action? I think the action, when it existed, was pretty good. I thought it could have been more creatively choreographed at points. Again, I think I was just teased by the trailer into thinking this was going to be more pulpy than it was. It just tiptoed near the edge of pulp. And I really wanted it to go all the way based on the trailer. And I also felt that there were some missed opportunities on this show, frankly, because if her husband is the defense minister, why is she not really tied up and spying on that most of the time? Why is there this whole other plot that we're really focusing on? Because I thought the setup was great. Like, yes, what is happening behind closed doors? in London in this household. We don't really get that. We mostly are dealing with, and this is not a spoiler, it's in the very first episode. We're mostly dealing with her pining over this other guy that she was sleeping with and what's going on with him. And I want to avenge his murder. And I'm all for revenge, but I wanted more revenge. I wanted more fire there. I wanted more of everything. Okay, this is bringing me into a closer focus because that's the stuff. The stuff if you wanted more

of is stuff that actually I didn't care about at all. And I think a weird thing happens with this show, and it's kind of counterintuitive, but when the violence and the espionage is so consequence-free, right, it trickles down into everything. And I start to notice it in everything. At one point, Sam rolls up to a party, and he parks his car on a completely empty street right in front of the house he's going to walk into. And then he and Helen are practicing target shooting under a bridge somewhere.

And I'm like, where is this bridge? And do they just leave those targets there when they, like, that's when it just became kind of a fun watch. Because whenever something tense would happen that's important to the plot, like a character needs to infiltrate spy headquarters and get in and get out, I didn't waste any time worrying about how are they going to, again, boundaries, how are they going to navigate this? They're not. I don't care. All that's going to happen because I'm not going to believe what happens. So it's not important. And that's when I realized I'm watching this show, not for the action, not for the gun battles, not for the spy.

stuff because again, I think the central plot involving the British and Chinese government was kind of like, that was a missed opportunity for me. Yeah. I was in it for the hang. The show's a good hang for me. Yeah. I can see that. And I do think Ben Wischaw is terrific in this role. I think that Kira Knightley is very convincing as a spy in this role.

And Sarah Lancashire, who plays Mrs. Reed, she's fantastic. Americans probably know her best as Julia Child on the HBO series, Julia. I also liked hanging with these people. And I felt that the emotionally resonant scenes between them, some of them were very powerful, especially episode three. I hope this isn't a spoiler. But there's something that happens in episode three with Ben Weshaw and his boyfriend at the time. And that one just punched me in the gut. And I loved that episode so much.

And I just wanted the whole series to be like that with those emotionally resonant moments combined with lots of killing and fighting. I wanted that all together. Roxanna, what's your take on the Sarah Lancashire character, Mrs. Reed? But she's perfect and I love her. I mean, I think every spy series needs this sort of like no BS, very frank, like handler figure. It's like the Marga Martindale on the Americans. You know, it's Gary Oldman on slow horses. But I really love how precisely venomous she is.

And there's this moment in the premiere where Helen is talking about how she was. in love with Jason, her lover. And like, she's really torn up about it. And Sarah Lancashire gives this great sighing, oh Christ. It wasn't working an angle. It was real. It wasn't a job. It was. It was what? Love. Oh, Christ. Those sort of moments that feel very wary, spycraft. I can't believe you're getting emotions in this game. I think for me, the emotions felt effective because we did always have that counterbalance of how could you get caught up in this, right? Like, how could you reveal yourself to another person? And I think that is sort of the interesting stuff for me about season two, because I don't want to spoil too much. But the season ends in a way

where we're not sure that some of these partnerships are going to continue, right? Like some people take different jobs. There's the introduction of a couple new mole characters within the government. And so I do think that for me, at least, the friendships here were like pretty effective and the threat that they're going to get blown up in season two, I think, worked. I am curious if it's going to be another six episode season because that feels like the British standard, right? And so maybe we'll get like a different shift in terms of what these characters are doing or how the action operates in season two. But yeah, I think it's interesting that like each of us sort of respond. responded to something different and criticized something different.

That's fun. I like that. That's fun. And I certainly felt most at home with the show when it was the Sam and Helen show because in those moments where they're in that car, the dialogue is sufficiently witty and fun and sharp in the case of Ben Wischel character, Sam. Caddy, he can occasionally be kind of catty. I kind of love that. Even such that, you know, toward episode five, at one point, there's a character who says,

let's go get your friend. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm here for. But I let it slide because so much goodwill had been built up to that point. I'm glad you guys are praising Sarah Lancashire's Mrs. Reed, the handler, because I didn't pick up on what she was putting down.

I got to tell you. That character puzzled me because on the Americans, Margota, Martindale gets a lot of range to play that person, but her Mrs. Reed, Sarah Lancashire's Mrs. Reed, just kind of is playing her. The choices she's making is Mrs. never blinks, and she delivers all her dialogue in this kind of ASMR monotone, I kind of thought

she was one note in Grey Banks, and I wanted her to get more to do, which is another reason why I'm hoping she's back for season two. And I do hope it is another six-episode season because that means I don't think the show suffers from Netflix bloat. I think this show got in and got out and did what it wanted to do. We'll get a different story next season, and it does tie up the story it's telling in this season, and next season will be more fun nonsense. And I won't believe a second of it, but I'll be there. I mean, how much of the, how much of this Christmas time setting is a factor for y'all? For me, it kind of is. I kind of want to pour myself a hot toddy and just settle in and vibe with this show and hang with this show or maybe just guzzle

some champagne the way that Ben Wischaw does. You know, I'm a Christmas nut. I love Christmas. I have two Christmas trees in my office 365 days a year. I love Christmas. And I thought Christmas was a nice backdrop for this show, but it wasn't necessary. Like if the next series takes place during summer holiday, that's going to be fine. If this takes place at any other time, I think it's still going to be a great show for people who love this kind of thing, or a fine show for people who thought this show was fine. It's going to be fine, regardless of when it takes place. It is a nice backdrop for this particular series, but again, I don't think it was necessary. I like to do a stylistic touch. I love a forlorn spy walking through the snow. I like the

sort of like garish, red and green lighting that keeps popping up, right? Very effective during an incredibly bloody shootout. So I liked it. And I almost hope that it's Christmas time again next season. Yeah, me too. I kind of want this to be a Christmas tradition. But if it is Christmas, don't you want there actually to be a shout out to why it's at Christmas time? I kind of did. And they never did. You know, it's like, is there a murderer on the loose dress to Santa? No. Is there poison being put in the Advent calendar? No. It doesn't. It doesn't have to be during Christmas. And I kept on waiting for there to be a reason for it to be at Christmas.

Never appears. And that's fine. But it might have been fun if we had a reason for it to be Christmas. I just thought it was the excuse that these people had to keep going to these horrible parties and make these very stilted speeches and pretend to be all chummy and then go home and go, oh, my God, I hated all those people, which, relatable. You want to see representation on television. It helps to build in that sort of like extraneous tension. Yeah. Right?

Because can Helen kill this person or does she have to go to this holiday fundraiser? You know, so I do think that element of it is fun. And I do think for me, it felt a little bit like the government stuff. I didn't need any of the government stuff. Like I didn't care about any of that. It just added a little flourish narratively. And I just feel like Christmas added a little flourish stylistically. Yeah.

And it did give her a lot of excuses of why she was out of the house. She was shopping a lot, supposedly. She was shopping a lot. Shopping a lot. A lot of very nice flannel outfits. Lots of like warm, cozy. That mid-length leather trench is like exceptional. So really it's for the clothes.

That's where you've landed. Yeah. I did want to shout out the two assassins, Williams and Eleanor, played by Ella Lily Highland and Gabrielle. Love them. But why do we just fire one miss place? I've got a rocket launcher. Since one of you were to a rocket launcher.

since last Christmas. Again, they don't seem particularly worried ever that they're going to die, so I wasn't worried that they were going to die. It did ratchet down the tension. Again, it's a problem with this show. If you accept that it's a problem, I didn't. And then when the great Catherine Hunter

shows up on episode two, I didn't know I needed. I didn't realize there was a Catherine Hunter-shaped hole in this show, but she's here now and she's filling it, and I am happy. It's a tiny little part. And all she has to do is sit in that track suit and be intimidating.

But she did it like no one else can, and I was totally happy. Classic of the London crime genre. Yes. An evil batty in a track suit. And I love that it's her before we get Andor season two. She just gave us a little bit to tide us over until then. All right.

Well, we want to know what you think about Black Dubs. And if you're anticipating season two and what you're drinking as you watch, find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH. And that brings us to the end of our show. Roxanna Hadati, Kristen Mineser. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you.

This episode was produced by Hafza Fatima and Lennon's Sherburn and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katziv. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all tomorrow.