Pop Culture Happy Hour - Dying For Sex

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

The premise might be a tough sell: a young woman attempts to finally own her sexuality following a terminal diagnosis. In the new show Dying For Sex, Michelle Williams stars as a cancer patient confronting the unsatisfying relationships in her life. The series is also a raunchy sex comedy that suggests it's never too late to insist on your own happiness. And it's got a stellar cast, including Jenny Slate, Rob Delaney, and Sissy Spacek.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Okay, so the premise might be a tough sell. A young woman attempts to finally own her sexuality following a terminal diagnosis. And sometimes the new show Dying for Sex is a challenge. It starts Michelle Williams as a cancer patient confronting the unsatisfying relationships in her life, both romantic and familial. But believe it or not, the series is also really freaking funny and horny. It's a raunchy sex comedy that suggests it's never too late to insist on your own happiness. And it's got a stellar cast that includes Jenny Sox. Slate, Rob Delaney, and Sissy Spacic. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Dying for

Sex on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Join me today is the host of NPR's It's Been a Minute, Brittany Luce. Welcome back, Brittany. Thank you for having me. Great to have you. Also with us is writer Kat Chow. Welcome back to you too, Kat. Thanks for having me. Thanks to you both for being here. So a quick heads up, dying for sex is sexually explicit. And it also touches on issues related to sexual abuse, and we're going to be talking about that today. In the series, Michelle Williams is Molly, who's diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. The diagnosis causes her to reevaluate how she wants to spend her remaining time. And she separates from Steve, her inattentive and unaffectionate husband with a savior complex.

He's played by Jay Duplas. Molly sits out on a personal journey to enjoy sex for the first time in her life. I actually don't know what I like or what I want. I've never even had an orgasm with another person. And now I'm going to die. The show also follows Molly's best friend, Nikki, played by Jenny Slate. Nikki gamely steps in to be her primary caretaker, but this presents its own challenges to their friendship and to Nikki's personal life and career. I saw Steve.

I got your records from him. And now they're not in my bag. You lost my records. Well, they were in my bag. Your bag is a black hole. I hate your bag. I've always hated your bag. You need to clean your bag.

You need to organize your bag. Oh, okay. Very relatable. My bag is also a black hole. Dying for sex was inspired by the life of Molly Cochin, who shared her experiences on the Wondry podcast of the same name, which was released nearly a year after her death. It's streaming on Hulu now.

Brittany, I'm going to start with you, and as I've already kind of suggested, this show, it really, really tries to balance the tragedy and the comedy of, this person's life. And I'm curious what you made of this and how you reacted overall to what the show is trying to do. I really enjoyed watching this show. There's so many great performances. Michelle Williams, of course. Yes. Jenny Slade is so good. Rob Delaney's so good. Sissy Spacex so good. I mean, there's so many phenomenal performances throughout that even if things in the plot were a little

convenient or like a little tweet, I asked myself a question where I was like, okay, I feel like, like it's a bit of an exaggeration or a bit of fantasy in the way that it's constructed. In dealing with illness and grief and death, as somebody who's done some caregiving, some of like the best gossip sessions of my life have happened during those times. You know what I mean? Right. Exactly. I think I thought if anybody deserves a fantasy, it is this woman or people in her situation that deserve that. Like, why not? You know what I mean? There's so many, I mean, there's

fantastical films about God knows what. I'm like, why can't this woman have all of these, you know, amazing coincidences and conveniences pop up in her life so that she can become, you know, the greatest stage four cancer, Dom of all of, you know, Brooklyn. Why not her? Why not her? But also very true to real life. Some of the actual funniest moments of your life can happen when you are looking at very serious illness or death. But yeah, I laughed. I cried. I gasped at times. I first sit over Rob Delaney. I had a good time.

Oh, Rob Delaney, yeah. The graying chest hair? Wow. Yeah. He was good. Yes, yes. Rob Delaney, actually, he plays neighbor guy. I think that's all he's ever called in the show.

And he winds up living across from the Mali character. And they have like a very fascinating journey together of like hating each other, but then turning that hate into love. lust and something like love? But yeah, Kat, I'd love to hear what you thought about that and so much more. First of all, I, you know, should have gotten a bigger clue from the title Dying for Sex. And I knew intellectually that this was a show about somebody who is terminally ill. And I should have been more prepared for the ending, which is when Molly the character actually dies. And so I was just so moved by that ending. And of course, as the show is progressing, I found myself liking it more and more, but I was really mixed at the jump because I just wanted more. I wanted more of this

character development so that I could see the friendship dynamics between Molly and also Nikki, just how messy that is. You know, when we're friends with someone for 20 years, things are just so, so layered. And we kind of just got this really finite snapshot of this moment. So in my eyes, I was like, okay, Molly has one family member, that's Sissy Space who is just like the most infuriating mom character ever. We were like, I wanted to pull my hair out in scenes. A mother with zero boundaries. Zero boundaries. And then also she has her one friend. I just kept thinking like, what else does she want besides sex? But under the like tight focus of, you know, the series called Dying for Sex, it makes sense. But.

I found myself just craving a little more, like, does she have a career? Is she worried about money? That was the thing that really struck me was, like, I don't know if we ever get a hint of what she did. Like, because part of the Molly's journey, and this was apparently true of the real life, Molly as well, who inspired this story, is that she had previously had cancer. And then this new diagnosis, it's like, it's come back or like a different version has come back now. And so you get the sense that, like, Steve. her husband was like caretaking for her for a while. So like she hasn't necessarily had a career for a long time. Right. But like what could that have been before or did it exist? And like yeah, she had 401K from that time that she lived off of. But that's all we find out. The show, I guess, isn't afraid to at least explain a little bit as to how she's able to for these things. Like she separates from Steve, but she stays with him legally so that she can stay. For his health insurance. So like that is.

understood. But like, we also have to recognize that like so many people who are going through this do not have any of those types of resources. And they often don't have someone like Sonia, who is the palliative care social worker who's at the hospital where Molly's receiving her care. Sonia is played by Esco Jolie. I will say, overall, I really, really loved this show. I, like you both, like was laughing. I shed a few tears. Like, I also just love that that real balance between anytime there's a sad moment, it's undercut by humor, but also oftentimes when it's undercut by humor, then it's undercut by sadness again. Yes, it's just that toggle. It's a toggle.

And I think the show, for the most part, handles it really well. And this is a show about exploration of yourself and learning to love yourself. I did struggle with the Sonia character just because they are a black queer character whose main purpose of being there. Yes, it's their job. they are a social worker. This is what they do. But there are times when it bordered on didactic a little bit in terms of like what their purpose was, which was to help Molly discover her own sexuality. I thought Sonia and Esco Jolie, who plays Sonia, great performance. Loved it. Yes. So good. But I also wanted a little bit more of like who Sonia is beyond being like a queer

sex positive, you know, social worker. Yeah. That is something that also I noticed. I mean, Because it also wasn't just that Sonia was, for all intensive purposes, like almost a death dula, like somebody who was really. Always present. Always. Always there. I was thinking, like, at my notes, I had other patients. Takes them to a sex party. Yes.

When they all went to the sex party, I was like, hip a violation. And then there's a scene where Molly meets Sonia's Dom. Robbie Hoffman. Right by Robbie Hoffman, exactly where I was like, oh my gosh. But yeah, there's like a moment where Molly goes to see Sonia's Dom, who's played by Robbie Hoffman. G's the character's name. Yes, goes to see G. Yeah.

Where G and Molly meet up is like G works at, it looks like some type of crate and barrel-esque type store. Like West Dome, yeah. Like a pottery barn or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So then they go back to the stock group and there just happens to be a mattress back there for them to kind of like connect and, you know, for Molly to open up. And it's like dimly lit in a good way, not in like the gross fluorescent light way. I'm like, I've never been in a stock group that looked like that.

Never in all my years of retail did that happen. Yeah. That was also a moment where I was like, let me just suspend this disbelief. The woman is dying. She is dying. Yeah. I feel like it was well intended. But, well, also another thing I noticed is that the only black people that the characters

interacted with were, for the most part. And the health care role. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, they were their support staff, basically. Yeah. You know, I also know what it feels like to have black characters peppered in in places

where it didn't make sense. It's not like I needed them to have like a black friend or something like that. But I just was like, did every black person you needed to interact with me, an employee at the hospital? Yeah. And that's where I struggled. But I do think the fact that Sonia is more or less really integrated into the story, even if their only purpose is as like the death tool.

It felt a little less egregious than like what I usually see. Yeah. So like I appreciated that. And even if Sonia had to deliver some clunky lines about how black women tend to get even worse treatment from doctors. I'm curious what you both think about. Yes, it's about like the sexual misadventures of Molly. But it's also in other ways about like how you maintain your humanity within the health care system. And I'm curious what you thought about that.

Because I loved the Dr. Pancoitz character played by David Rashi. Who's from Succession also. Carl. Yes, long time character actor. Like as soon as you see him, you're like, I've seen this guy. But like Molly has to teach him like bedside manner. And I thought, you know, that could have been didactic, but it felt different to me. I'm glad you brought that up because that was a scene I was thinking a lot about where it was almost like this sweet parallel after Molly learns how to be a dom super quickly from G. And suddenly, I was like, wow, that was the fastest lesson ever. Like you didn't even have to. practice and suddenly you're just like telling Rob Delaney and like all these other people to like, I don't know, crawl on the floor. I will say as like a side note before I actually answer your question, Aisha, I did think that at least the kink stuff was rendered with care instead of it being a joke, which I think is just like very important for me to just say. Absolutely. So that was nice to see that represented in a moving way. But I also think that it then served as a nice parallel between how Molly started to take charge more of her own care. Because previously her husband, Jay Dupluss, was just kind of controlling his way through the caretaking and not really giving her the agency that she wanted. And it came from a good place, right? Yeah. So it was really moving to see her be able to kind of articulate what she wanted. Yes. Yeah. I think that for me, what I really appreciated was just the way Nikki, the Jenny Slate character, like it's very complicated. their relationship by the fact that like now that Molly decides to leave Steve, now it's like, oh, of course I'll be a caretaker, but like, what does that mean? And I think the show does a

really good job of putting that into context as well. We should say that on top of everything that's happening with Molly, she is also dealing with trauma from her childhood, having been sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend when she was around seven years old. And that comes out throughout the show. And on top of Nikki having to take care of all of her medical needs, you start to see Molly kind of putting all of the trauma onto Nikki. There's a really like kind of heartbreaking scene where Molly is finally describing for the first time in detail to Nikki, like what happened to her. And Nikki suggests like, I'm really glad you're able to share that, but like maybe you should talk to a professional. And Molly responds like, no, I can do it.

I have you. And the look on Nikki. to me, that was like one of the strongest moments of this show because it really kind of put into context like what Nikki is dealing with. I mean, Nikki's life kind of falls apart as she's caring for her. And I think the show kind of juggles a lot of tones. And I think it also juggles complexities around like what that means. Because by the time it ends, like that is also kind of conveniently in many ways tied up as well. Like her life, Nikki's life kind of surprisingly comes back together. She loses her job. Her boyfriend. Oh, Calvin, you also so darling in this.

Yes, yes. We've seen many stories about people who are experiencing, you know, terminal illness. We don't often see in so much detail what it's like for the caregivers. And I have not been a caregiver myself, but I have seen family members be caregivers. And at least from my sort of limited scope of things, it felt like a very real encapsulation of like what that emotional weight and toll and financial, frankly. Because, again, Nikki loses her job. Yeah. I mean, it is a job caretaking like that, right?

Yeah. And that's a job that Nikki didn't necessarily agree to. And there's this just really powerful scene where Molly and Nikki are talking. And Molly turns to Nikki and says, I told him I don't want to die with him. Oh, okay. I want to die with you. That part also took my breath away.

Because, I don't know, if I were on the receiving end, of that, I would feel so heartbroken if I were Nikki, but then also weirdly honored, but then scared, just afraid. Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad you used the word honored because that is one of the things that I felt caring for a sick friend a few years back. And also that I feel like comes through so clearly in Nikki's character for all the ways in which, like, her life does fall apart. she still ultimately feels so honored to be able to be there for Molly at the end of her life. And there's a really beautiful moment between Nikki and her boyfriend, on and off boyfriend, Noah, where she's talking about how she didn't realize that you could love a person that much until going through this with Molly.

And Noah says, like, oh, that's how basically he felt when his daughter was born. Nikki kind of says, you know, I know I'm not going to be there for the beginning of someone's life, but I can be there at the end of someone's life. What family looks like is changing so much for people more and more with every generation, with every passing decade, it's not so conventional. It's not so cookie cutter. It's not like, you know, and also too, when you look at the statistics of who cares for women when they get to the end of their lives or who cares for women when they are looking down

a cancer diagnosis or a terminal illness. And their husbands are like six times more likely to leave them. When they receive a cancer diagnosis, not saying that's what happens. happened with the husband character in this series, quite the opposite. And I like the way they treated his character. He wasn't like all bad. Like you kind of saw where he was coming from sometimes, but you're kind of like, I can't be too mad at you. You mean so well. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't too bad. But he also still like never was fully redeemed. Like when he brings his new girlfriend to visit Molly in the hospital while she's getting chemo. Why do you think she moved on to

side? I know. But then she does kind of quote unquote, like, win that situation when her lover comes and he's like in a pup costume. Who's into acting like a dog for sexual? Like, yes, that was quite funny. Being there for the end of someone's life, it is just as valuable as being there for the beginning of someone's life. I think that there are a lot of women who do a lot of work like that for their family members and for their friends. And it doesn't get the same value in society. And I thought that was really interesting. I love that point that you make. And it just made me think to, you know, when you were saying the way families are shaped now is just changing. I thought about how friendship can be so romantic too in so many ways.

And I think that this is one of the shows that illustrates that pretty well. I loved that thinking about how your friend can actually just be your partner. Yeah. And I think it's so notable that the neighbor guy, Rob Delaney, character, they have a moment. It blossoms into something that becomes more than just, you know, sex and lust. But at the same time, she's like, she says something along the lines of like, I don't want to die with you. I want to like get a dog with you. But like that's her way of saying like, I still want Nikki to be there for my last moments. And there is a romantic element,

but it doesn't end in the way that you might like, like a usual narrative might do. It's like, oh, of course, like she's moved on to a new man. And this is like, this is the true fulfillment. And it's like, he's going to propose to her on her death. Yeah. Right. Exactly. No, that's what happened. Like he served like, I mean, the crude way of saying it is like he served his purpose. And she's like, okay, I'm done with you now. But also it's like, you brought purpose. to my life. I appreciate you. Everything is for a season. And I thought it's just a really lovely moments that they had and the fact that he doesn't appear in the final episode. It's like, this is interesting. Yeah. I kind of liked that in the end, it was just Nikki, Molly,

and Molly's mom, that it was just these trio of women. And they were kind of just doing their own thing and quietly sitting with their own grief. Yeah. I also thought that Michelle Williams is acting in that last episode was just so beautiful. Yeah. The way she portrayed someone who is actually about to die. I was like, this is just so carefully rendered. It was so heartfelt. This is really a show that for all it's like suspension of disbelief that you might have to do,

I think overall it's really well conceived and the performances are what put it over the top. And that is what makes it you stick around. And Michelle Williams, like she's always great. I think this could be one of her best performances that I have seen of hers. Agreed. And I've always loved Jenny Slate. And this just felt like a new thing for her in the best way possible. Oh, my God.

I wrote Oscar, like one day, Oscar someday? She gave a lot of good comedic relief. One last thing I will say that I want to make sure that I mentioned that also really stuck out to me is there is in, I believe, the seventh episode is like an extended series of scenes that involve sex taking place in a hospital bed. Yes. While Molly is like in her gown and has like the nasal as receiving nasal oxygen. One of the things that where like society is lagging in the way that it thinks about

people who are like ill and disabled is their sexuality and their sexual agency. Yes. Like she was able to be in the context of illness very visibly and still be desired. And I thought that that was really, really important. And to that point, I think one thing we haven't even mentioned either is the fact that this show, it's a very sex positive show that also is basically it's advocating that like there are other ways besides penetrative sex to find pleasure. Sex. Sex is a way. No.

Sex. Sex is a mindset. Largely in part because she's getting all these surgeries, she can't do the things that a lot of people can do. And so she is finding her way to be fulfilled without the quote unquote normal hetero way of doing things. And I really appreciated that like that is part of her journey is not just like the vanilla way, as G calls it. Yeah, I think that was one of the first times I did. saw that portrayed. And so I really also just appreciated each partner she had. She learned something new. I mean, she was miraculously really great at being a Dom naturally. I could have watched more episodes of

her, you know, struggling and kind of trying to figure it out. Well, it sounds like we all absolutely recommend the show. It's a lot, but you've got some great performances and you've got, you know, a lot of really beautiful, lovely moments. So, definitely let us know what you think about dying for sex. Find us at Facebook.com slash PCH. And that brings us to the end of our show, Kat Chow and Brittany Luce. This is such an enlightening conversation.

I really appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you. This episode was produced by Hussipathema and Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katziv. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy and hello. Come in provides our theme music.

Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all tomorrow.