Pop Culture Happy Hour - East of Eden

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

A new series on Netflix is taking a bold crack at the American classic. Maybe you read John Steinbeck’s East of Eden in school. Or maybe you’ve seen the very loosely-adapted film starring James Dean. Anchored by a fantastic Florence Pugh performance, this new adaptation follows multiple generations of the Trask family. The series is an epic retelling of their story that offers a fresh perspective for new audiences.Looking for more adaptations of classic literature? Check out these episodes:Little House on the Prairie‘Lord of the Flies’ gets the Netflix treatmentOnly Guillermo del Toro could've made this 'Frankenstein'Connect with Pop Culture Happy Hour:Letterboxd / FacebookOur weekly newsletterSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Listen, I've been on the East of Eden is better than Grapes of Wrath train for like 15 years. Sure, sure. Nobody believes me. Until it started getting popular on like TikTok or whatever and now I'm like finding my people. And then Zoe Kazan heard of my proselytizing, right? She heard my sermon about how this book rocks and she decided to turn it into a series. So thank you. Sure.

John Steinbeck's East of Eden is one of those canonical American works. Maybe you read it in school or you know the very loosely adapted movie version starring James Dean. It's kind of bold to take a crack at a fresh perspective for a new audience for Netflix, all anchored by a fantastic Florence Pew performance. I'm Aisha Harris. This is NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. And joining me today is Andrew Limbong. He's the host of NPR's Book of the Day podcast and a reporter for the Culture Desk. Hey, Andrew, welcome back.

Hey, what's up, Ayesha? Great to have you here. Also with us is the host of the podcast, Happy to be here, Greta Johnson. Hey, Greta, welcome back to you too. Hey, glad to be here. So excited to talk to you both about this. So East of Eden is about multiple generations of the Trask family.

Christopher Abbott and Mike Feist play the adult versions of half-brothers Adam and Charles, who come of age in Connecticut in the years following the Civil War. Now, their sibling dynamic is soured by their father's overt favoritism toward Adam. Adam falls for and marries Kathy Ames, played by Florence Pugh. He knows nothing of her. pass, which includes sex work and patricide. I like how you just lifted. Oh, you know, just sex work and patricide, by the way.

Yeah, just listen to that. It happens. You know. On a Thursday. Look, this woman's got a lot of baggage here. Yeah. A lot of baggage. So, yeah, sex work and patricide.

Also, against her protests, Adam insists they moved to California to start a new life. An unhappy Kathy eventually gives birth to twin boys, Caleb, and Aaron, and soon after, abandons them. I didn't want to come here. I don't intend to stay here. And as soon as I can, I will go away. Man, if only Adam would just listen to her. Listen, man.

So she changes her name to Kate, becomes the enterprising star of a brothel in Salinas. And in their mother's absence, the boys are primarily raised by Lee, a Chinese American servant, who becomes something like an adopted member of the family. He's played by Hoon Lee. This is the Cliff's notes summary.

The main thing to know is Adam repeats a lot of his own father's mistakes in relating to his sons. And Kathy is a uniquely wicked lady. Like I said, patricide. East of Eden was adapted for Netflix by Zoe Kazan. It's streaming now. And Andrew, I'm going to just start with you. I think you've read East of Eden. Yeah, I read it.

Listen, I've been on the East of Eden. is better than Grapes of Wrath train for like 15 years. Sure, sure. Nobody believes me. Until it started getting popular on TikTok or whatever and now I'm like finding my people and then Zoe Kazan heard of my proselytizing, right?

She heard my sermon about how this book rocks and she decided to turn it into a series, so thank you. Sure. Andrew, I had no idea that you were the inspiration of the new adaptation. That's amazing. Yeah. See, I liked it before. It was cool.

Nobody else had ever heard of the Steinbeck guy until I turned 17 and started reading this book. I loved this. I think the longest part of it, I thought it was great. I think something that I found interesting that I have me a hard time to put my finger on is it feels weighty. It feels like important and it feels expensive.

Sure. Like a lot of times I'll watch a Netflix show and it's like, shout out to Netflix made in original. So it's like, oh, you guys filmed in Vancouver in like a weekend and I'm going to crush this while folding laundry or whatever, right? This doesn't feel like a laundry show. It feels like something you have to sit down and really digest. I thought it was great.

It just reminded me of being a kid and watching. Like ABC used to have these like big occasion limited series. Right. And like, you know, my dad would call them like have a party. So we'd go to a bodega and get like chips and soda and like it would be like an event, right? Because we weren't allowed to watch TV. But for some reason, these events were like something that were allowed to do. And it feels like a callback to that.

It feels like old fashioned in a lot of ways. but it feels like it is trying to say, and we'll get into this more, it feels like it is trying to say something important and maybe even counter to what is norm culture these days in an interesting way. Yeah, yeah. I like what you said about it feeling expensive because when I think about, weirdly enough, this reminded me of roots in a way because you have decades going by, you have multiple generations of families.

And then on top of that, you have like, sometimes. two to three different actors playing the same character because you're aging throughout time. There's a lot of casting here, a lot of characters, and there is a lot of expansive storytelling because it is an epic. It is, it's Steinbeck. And the book, I think, is like around 600 pages long, give or take. It's a hefty. So it's a hefty. So expensive is a great word. Sweeping, I would use to, okay, we're going to hold that thought. Greta, I'm going to turn to you. How do we feel about this? So I have not read East of Eden somehow.

I have read Grapes of Braths and of Mice and Men, but I missed the East of Eden train. Oh, damn, you didn't hear me. My sermon didn't come towards you. No, clearly I missed it, Andrew. I feel like there's pros and cons to not having read the book when you watch an adaptation like this. I think sometimes it's helpful because you're not necessarily like as burdened by feeling like you need to adhere to certain. plot points or themes or characters being exactly the way they are in the book. And I think sometimes it can be really helpful then to just look at the TV show as like how it stands as a TV show and

not an adaptation of a classic text. In this case, I had a number of frustrations. I think my biggest frustration was related to the well-known storytelling adage show don't tell. I feel like in this show I was told a lot. And I found that really frustrating. And Aisha, you actually mentioned the example of Adam, this son feeling frustrated that he has repeated the mistakes of his father. And I mean, we literally had a scene where Adam's like, this is just like what my dad did. And those were the moments that I found really frustrating. I thought the casting was phenomenal.

I thought the setting was gorgeous. Yeah. Clearly, they put a lot of work into this show. But I think for me, the biggest shortcoming was the script. And I just found that there was very little subtext here. And I found that really frustrating. And I don't know. I mean, I have a feeling, Andrew, that you are able to interpret this TV show more broadly because you do have the foundation of the text.

But without that, I felt like the show was really missing something. Yeah, Andrew, did you don't hop on that? Let me think. Because it's actually been a minute since I read it. So I was like, I was turning to my, my wife had just read it like last year. And I was like, oh, nice. I was like, is this what happened? I was like, I forgot about this.

I think for me a lot of it, too, comes down to, like, character motivation. It just felt to me like it wasn't there. And that was one especially where, like, why does Kathy marry Adam? Why does Adam want to marry Kathy? Why does she follow him to California? What does she want? I was not convinced in the show that those questions were clearly answered. See, I didn't have an issue with the character motivation in part because I think,

stemming from your other point, Greta, it did feel like we knew what everyone wanted, like, because it was repeated over and over and over again. Or even, like, not necessarily what they wanted, but, you know, as I've alluded to already, listen. Like, how many characters, I feel like at least four different characters in this show tell Adam that he's not listening to them or that he's not listening to Kathy. And so there is a lot of underlining here. And I'm actually coming at it from the same spaces as you are, Greta.

Like, I did not have to read the book in school. I read grapes of wrath and of mice and men. And then, interestingly enough, travels with Charlie. East of Eden, my sole reference point was because I became obsessed with old movies in James Dean. The version that I was familiar with was the 55 version directed by Zoe's grandfather, actually, Elia Kazan. And that version only covers the third act of the book. And it was really interesting. I rewatched Yise of Eden for the first time in years, the movie version right before watching this.

And it was very interesting to get like a prequel of the movie that I grew up watching. And then also like seeing a new version of the movie that I grew up watching because it does encompass most of the book here. I enjoyed it. I thought Florence Pugh is just really, really fantastic here with a difficult character. And I guess we should probably maybe talk about her because, again, Greta and I haven't read the book. But from what I've read, it seems as though this version that Zoe Kazan is adapting and sort of creating here is actually way more focused on Kathy than the book was. Like the book includes like a whole other family and we only get like a glimpse of that family here, the Hamilton's. I don't even know if their side characters are kind of like tertiary characters in this version.

What do we think of this imagining of Kathy? I thought it was a really interesting way to plumb the deaths of what we consider, like, evil. The whole shtick of the books be like, is inherent evil like a thing? Or people just like born with like a dark heart and just suck and are bad, right? Or like, is it made by choices? And I thought by giving her more heft, her backstory more heft, it doesn't make her more sympathetic necessarily, which is the criticism I've seen people. It's like, oh, you're supposed to like side with her. It's like, not really, bro. She's like, I don't understand. She still seems like a

pretty bad person. It seems like she comes out the womb pretty bad. Like, it's not like something happens to her. At least I didn't get the sense that something happened to her that turned her, quote unquote, bad in the way sometimes those stories do, but maybe I'm reading it differently. I do think that interpretation is really funny Because I feel like so much of this show Is trying to argue that there is no such thing as inherent goodness Or inherent evil But then it's like, well, Kathy's just run

Except for this one This lady, this wicked lady Yeah, and I think it's Especially compared to, especially I think In the back third of the show When you're dealing with her sons And her sons having to, especially Cal Right, having to

The bad one. The bad one, yeah, having to reconcile how he wants to be versus who his mother is. You know, I think the weight of her backstory, her history, gives that tension so much more to chew on, more depth, you know? Yeah. You know, everybody thinks their parents are messed up or whatever, right? And then you'd be like, hey, parent, why did you mess me up?

And they're always be like, you don't understand how I grew up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, this is the fact of this interaction, this relationship. Yeah. They sort of don't have that conversation, but you, as of you are knowing everything that Kathy's been through. It's like you have to weigh. It's like how much does what she's been through matter, you know, on how she treated her children. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think if I had to pick one flaw out of this adaptation, it is the fact that up until the last episode, I feel like it's skirted away from making us wanting to feel bad for her. Like, I was just looking at her the whole

time being like, oh, she's very savvy. She's enterprising. That doesn't make her good person and I don't feel bad for her. But also, like, I kind of understood to some extent why she made some of the choices she did. Not all of them, but like being a sex worker for one thing, it's like, yeah, I mean, and wanting to be good at it. And she is very good at it in a business sense and trying to, and it's always motivated by her own interest. She doesn't actually really care about anyone else. But I liked that. And it was good to see a character like that. And then there is that last moment in in the final episode where I also found the metaphor that they were trying to allude to, like, confusing. I was like, huh? Like, this is a little too vague and a little too,

I don't understand what we're trying to show here. And then it gets into some magical realism in a way or sort of like hallucinatory something. Yeah. Yeah. Choices were made. And I'm not sure those choices worked. But I appreciated that like for most of the runtime, I did not feel bad for her. And I didn't want to because she kept doing horrible things. And everyone she crossed past was that's very, very terrible or at least like kind of sad fates. Like her kids are the only, well, that's not even true either. But like they are better off to some extent because she's not there. That makes sense.

Oh, totally. You could argue that the best thing that she did was bounce. Right? Yes. Well, that's interesting too because she lies so much. Like almost all the time she's lying to people. But she was always very honest with Adam about like, no, I'm going to get the hell out of here the minute I can. Yeah, yeah.

All right. After the break, we've got more thoughts about East of Eden. I'm curious about like Adam to some extent. And again, he's played by Christopher Abbott here, who I think is doing really, really great work. But that's a complicated character too because Adam is kind of like, I don't know, a lot of things happen to him. But he's not necessarily motivating the story. And I think that contrast between him and Lee, who is played by Hoonle, and another character, Lee, who's like way, I think from my understanding is way bigger here or more interestingly explored than in the book. I mean, what do we make of that sort of dynamic of like we're seeing a male figure in these kids' lives in what would be typically you'd see a woman in this role.

And given the time period, you would probably maybe even see a black woman in this role. but we're seeing an Asian American man. And I thought that was really something I enjoy kind of sinking teeth into. But like there are some people who might argue, is this the quote unquote woke version of vis-a-vita? What was that movie? It was like Tom Selleck and two other guys. Tom Selleck. Have to take care of a baby.

Three men and a baby. Three men and a baby. Yes, yes. Or like full house. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

It did remind me kind of just like that kind of, I guess, Nate Bergotsi did just make a similar movie of like, oh, guys are bad at dads, right? Or it's like two guys just figuring out how to dad it up and be like, I don't know, brother. And Christopher Abbott just be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And Lee being like, well, you know, you got to feed them, right? You got to do some of these basic caretaking things.

Oh, my God. In as much as some people have criticized this series for, you know, turning Kathy into a girl boss, right, into like effeminizing the stuff, It is a very masculine family. It is a very masculine show. There are a lot of dudes in this central family. I don't think I was like, I had to go back to Tom Selleck to think of like the last time I saw it such like a guy's family unit, you know.

Yeah. It is very interesting. Other than Florence Pugh, one of the only major female characters we have is Faye, who's played by the great Martha Plimpton, and Faye is the brothel owner. Oh, there's the girlfriend. What's her name?

Oh, Abra. Oh, Abra. Yeah, that's true. Abra just felt so kind of inconsequant. Wow. Damn, shout out Emma. Abra had a way bigger, I feel like, presence in the 55 movie version than she does here. But, yeah, Fay, like, takes Kathy slash Kate under her wing and then eventually has her own fate, unfortunately, tied up with Kathy.

To think about the way that this show sort of, like, brings in all this masculine energy while critiquing it. Like, are there any other things that felt sort of. of, I don't know, modernized or felt just like Zoe Kazan was trying to sort of mine our present day for a modern audience through this very old story. I mean, like you were saying before we started taping, Andrew, this is like, it's the Bible. You know, it's funny. So I have broke person Netflix, right? Which means I get you get the ads every now and then. Oh, sure. Oh, no, Andrew. I'm sorry. Listen, listen, the budget's been crazy. Look, I feel you. Listen, listen, donate to your local public creative station. And you know, you would have the scenes of Lee being disappointed that his mentor

sold out and now works in gambling. And then you're hit with like a gambling ad. You know what I mean? And the attitudes about sex and promiscuity, this is a very like small sea conservative show, right? In the world of the show, there are things that are good and things that are bad, right? There are, you know, gambling is bad. Drinking, you probably. shouldn't do it that often. You know, sex, I feel like it has a weird relationship about sex where it's like, to do it in exchange of money is probably bad, is what the show is trying to say. This show isn't afraid to yuck people's yum in that manner. In the society we live in, it's sort of hands off. It's like, oh, well, you do what you got to do. You know, I'm not going to

try to like rain on anybody's parade. If it's not hurting anybody directly, you know, you should be free to do it. It was interesting how the show was like, maybe we should consider that some things are bad. You know, not people. Right. Well, also people. I think that is also, you know, I think that's also on the table with this. True. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, because for all the bad things that Kathy slash Kate does, like, there are still plenty of people who also, like, will try to take advantage of her and get one over on her. They may not be as successful because she's way craftier and she can see things coming from a mile ahead. But, like, the world around her is also kind of cruel. And And I think that that's something that this story is really trying to hammer home.

But then we also find the moments of softness. And again, I think so much of that comes out of the Lee character that I found really, really compelling. When he gets away from the family, like, it does focus a little bit on what it's like for him to be an Asian American, a Chinese American and the reactions to that. And we get sort of the, what I think has now become sort of the standard conversation of like, I see. speak this one way because white people expect me to, but then, like, and that's how I play the game. And while I found that a little bit like, huh, I don't know, this feels, I've seen this many times before, I think I read somewhere that this is actually in the book, like, that this is. Yeah, I rolled my eyes at it at first and then went downstairs to check

the copy. And I was like, okay. That's interesting. Fine. You can get away with this one. Yeah. Sometimes you got to check yourself because it's like, you know what? Actually, we have been having these same conversations for like hundreds of years. So like, it's not that out of the realm. I really liked the softness that Lee has in this masculine figure. And he's like really the only sort of stabilizing force within all of this chaos. And I just thought that was really lovely. And I thought, you know, Hounli just gives like such a really beautiful performance that like I think stands alongside in contrast with Florence Pugh's character and her performance in such a lovely way. I thought he was phenomenal. He was probably my favorite part of the show. Yeah. And I think too,

like the woke argument is a bit frustrating. I mean, I am also not opposed to diversifying cast in historical shows, but also there were very, very many Chinese Americans in the West in early American history. And also to negate that is just like not factual. I think we all recommend checking it out. It's long. It's seven hours. But people rode hard for little women a few years ago.

like the Greta Gerwig version. I loved that version, yeah. Speaking of Florence Pugh. Oh, yeah. This is not my normal wheelhouse. I'm not a lit nerd and especially not like a period piece lit nerd. That's not usually my thing. But even if I didn't have to watch this for this show, I would probably finish it.

I was that kind of into it and invested in these characters. I was also curious, not to get to just like, metatechial, it's like, let's see how this Professor Xavier is looking. Oh, oh. Let's see. Let's see. Last time I saw Christopher Abbott wasn't girls, you know, nose tight, whatever. But I was like, let's see how Professor X is if he's got the sauce. And I don't know. Funny. I think jury's on that, still out on that one for me. But I thought him, I thought Christopher Abbott and Mike Feist were really great. I honestly wanted a little bit more Mike Feist, to be honest. He's got some tension bubbling under there that I think was kind of in challengers. But I think we get even more of here. And I'm just like, yes, I want more of that from this man.

Well, you heard it from us. Give it a shot if you haven't already. I think we all more or less enjoyed it. Like, it's interesting. It's a really interesting piece of work. Totally. I think it's one of those shows, and I wish there were kind of a word for this, where, like, it's good enough that I have frustrations.

You know, it's not just, like, you don't just totally write it off because it is bad. There are potentials that I wish had been better, but I think it is still, I think that makes for a really interesting discussion, you know? Yeah, the word is Tim Schellett. That makes it. Thou mayest like this show. That may have a show. Are you may have? Oh, my God.

Perfect, Andrew. Oh, that was perfect, Andrew. Thank you for hitting me over the head with that again. That brings us to the end of our show, Greta Johnson, Andrew Limbaugh. Thanks so much for being here. Thou mayest, go off and enjoy your lives. Thank you. Thanks, Aisha.

This episode was produced by Huff's of Bathamah. Liz Metzger, Mike Kassiv, and edited by our sure runner Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamin provides our theme music, and thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris. We'll see you all next time.