Pop Culture Happy Hour - Thunderbolts*

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

Thunderbolts* is the latest Marvel movie and this one's a bit more fun than they've been lately. It stars Florence Pugh, Sebastian Stan, David Harbour and emotionally broken super-people who've done some very bad things. Will they manage to put their guilt aside and come together to form a rag-tag team of losers who somehow manage to save the day?Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopcultureSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Thunderbolts is the latest Marvel movie, and this one's a bit more fun than they have been lately. It stars Florence Pugh, Sebastian Stan, David Harbor, and others as a bunch of emotionally broken super people who've done some very bad things. Will they manage to put their guilt aside and come together to form a rag-tag team of losers who somehow managed to save the day? Are you seriously asking that question in 2025? I'm Glenn Weldon, and today we're talking about Thunderbolts on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is Ronald Young Jr. He's the host of the film and television review podcast leaving the theater. Hello, Ronald.

Hello, Glenn. Hello. Also with us is Daisy Rosario. She's the senior supervising producer of Audio at Slate, where she works with shows like death, sex, and money, and I see why am I. Hey, Daisy. Hey, Glenn. Happy to be here.

Happy to have you. Rounding out the panel is Jordan Morris. He's a writer and podcaster who contributed to the comics anthology Godzilla v. America, Los Angeles, which is a charity project for L.A. wildfire relief. Hey Jordan. Hey, hey. Let's get to it. In Thunderbolts with an asterisk, long story, Florence Pugh returns as the former Black Widow agent Yelena. She's still reeling from her sister's death and feeling pretty crappy about her work as a covert operator for the CIA director named Valentina, played by Julia Louis Dreyfus. Valentina is determined to cover up a secret

project that somehow involves a squirly guy named Bob, played by Lewis Pullman. But her attempt only succeeds in bringing together her other secret operatives, including an off-brand Captain America, Yelina's father, the Red Guardian, played by David Harbour, along with Ghost, whom you probably forgot was an An Man, too, because I totally did, but she totally was. Eventually, the team tries to take down Valentina and her project, whose superpower is wielding guilt, shame, and depression as a weapon. I dated a guy like that in my 20s. Thunderbolts is in theaters now. Jordan, let's kick off with you, what you think? Yeah, I really had fun watching this.

I think if you are someone who has tapped out on the MCU, I don't think this will bring you back in. It still has, you know, some of those frustrating things that I think keep people out of these movies these days. It has characters. You have to remember Ant Man sequels and Disney Plus shows and mobile games that have only come out in Wales to recognize. But I think that if you are still into this stuff and, And if you love this cast, I think you're going to have a blast here. With Marvel, one of their great strengths has always been casting. And I think everybody in here is really, really fun to watch.

Florence Pugh in particular. I agree with that. Yeah, I'd agree. I enjoyed this movie more than I was expecting to. And that's not to say that I went in with crazy low expectations. I was a really big fan of a lot of the Marvel movies leading up to end game, have been, I think, rightfully frustrated with the lack of quality and kind of more them forgetting kind of what really worked about their own movies at various points. But I really thought this one was a lot of

fun. I thought they did do a good return to some of the things that they used to do well, where this felt like the humor was more based in the characters. It didn't feel like just the regular like kind of overly Marvel quippy jokes. Like they kind of let the humor live in other places and built around character dynamics. I also really, really liked Florence Pugh, and I just found myself very charmed by her. I think this movie would have hit harder for me if they hadn't had so many other misses that I found really frustrating. I think I would have just enjoyed it even more, but I actually, I thought it was a pretty good time. I just did like it. I thought the first act was very, very boring. I thought we've done a team up of rag tag superheroes or anti-heroes

in the Marvel universe before with the Guardians of the Galaxy. So you had the blueprint to do it. The idea of like we're supposed to work together, we split apart, somehow we come back together in a very, like, meaningful way. I feel like this may be kind of alluded to that a little bit, but didn't quite get there for me. I think that David Harbor was funny. And I do think that Florence Pugh was charming.

I think that somehow all of them together, I didn't necessarily feel chemistry. And I think the thing that gets to me the most about Marvel movies is rewatchability. like I want to watch them over and over again. I don't ever want to watch this movie again. There was nothing in this movie that I'm like, oh, man, I got to see that one more time. The other thing, and the last thing I'll say is when you have a threat of this size over New York, doing something that is this scary in the city for it not to even be mentioned, like, hey, this feels familiar, guys. Like, I feel like that feels like an oversight.

And that might be some of the bloke that comes with connecting to the other films. But it just didn't have that much goodwill for me. And I feel like I walked into this movie, man, like, I expect this to be. be about a mid movie. And for me, it did not hit mid for me. And I want y'all to know, I'm not an MCU hater. I'm an MCU stand. And I felt disappointed here. Ronald, I understand your argument that, you know, we do have to acknowledge how often New York is getting attacked in these movies. Do you think it would have helped if a cab driver would have turned to camera and said, here we go again? That would honestly, Jordan, I know you're kidding, but that would have been fine.

if they would have been like, not this again, or something along the life. Because I think the humanity of the people, anything like that, because I feel like the humanity of the people is completely overlooked. Like, for instance, during the limo chase scene, there's a scene where they're being chased by these people in Humvees. It's in the preview. And I realize if you watch that scene again, you don't see a human driving the Humvees until the very last second.

I was like, do we care about them or these people? And I felt like that element just made me say, okay, well, then I expect more from the ensemble. And it'd feel like I didn't get that except again for David Harbor. Bless him. And again, Florence Pugh was wonderful. I agree with those points. Just the rest of it wasn't there for me. I will say, though, that when the world has gone crazy for so long, you stop remarking on the day-to-day craziness.

Yeah. That's certainly true. That's valid. Sure. Look, I'm going to go with mid here. I think this slots neatly into what Marble's been doing. I do think it does it better than a lot of the recent stuff because I do think these jokes land better. And I think that has to do with delivery.

I'll talk about that. But my reaction slots in neatly with a lot of my reaction to a lot of marble stuff lately, which is dug the jokes. The emo stuff at the end especially left me cold. But man, I do like Florence Pugh's take on Yelena. You've all mentioned it. She does great things, which what now has become the Marvel brand of humor, which is, I guess, Jordan, you'd call it what, de-escalation, right? Where there's some ridiculous trope about superhero stuff. And the joke is, I'm going to point out how ridiculous it is.

Sure. And that's the joke. And then the thing it is, though, that Florence Pugh does that, she tosses them away. She never lunges at them. She never underlines them. It's the only way that kind of joke can work, especially when it's as wall to wall as it is in this movie. Are you listening, Ryan Reynolds? No, I know for a fact you're not.

Because I saw Deadpool Wolverine. You have gin to sell Ryan Reynolds. I enjoy this along the way. but then we get to what, as I suppose, is inevitable when you stock your film with this many emotionally damaged people, which is you get the final battle as therapy session, the Goodwill Hunting ending, the it's not your fault. Inside out, too. Inside out, too. And on paper, sure, the reason people who complain about superhero fatigue, what they say that they don't like is it's all cosmic stakes.

There's no human emotional stakes. I think this is an overcorrection. I think this is all human emotional stakes. And when you end with a mental health reconciliation, I'm sorry to me, it's giving C. It's giving Buffy Supernatural Charm season finale, and that's not necessarily a dig. But it's just a reference to how often this has been done. There's no meat left on that particular bone. I would say I think the filmmakers would say that, like, this is a movie about depression.

And I think in a lot of ways, it does a pretty good job of that. And I think, you know, the thing you mentioned about Florence Pugh is she's kind of throwing this stuff away. And I think it is a funny delivery, but I also think it fits with her character. Like she is a super spy who is bored with her life and wants something more. And I think that's a fun kind of character that we haven't seen in these movies before. A lot of the comic book characters these days are kind of just like generic super guy and occasionally generic super gal. She's bringing a little bit of spice to this. It is a very funny way to deliver a joke that kind of blasé, I'm bored.

But also I think it fits with the character and the theme of this movie. And I think by the end it does get a little sweaty. This is about depression. It goes from a little spice in the movie to, you know, you're getting balked on the head by it. But I do think it's neat to see one of these movies with something on its mind other than like, I don't know, maybe the theme is always do your best. Or maybe the theme is family is important. It does, it is nice to see one of these with stuff on its mind. And it's nice to see a third act that isn't like we got to.

close the portal or two people with beam weapons, shoot the beam weapons at each other, and they hit in the middle, and eventually one beam weapon overcomes the other one. So you can definitely quibble about how that stuff was accomplished, but I kind of appreciated that it was there, and I think it hit sometimes. Yeah, it didn't bother me. For me, that's kind of the stuff that I actually am more inclined towards. I enjoy that more than some of the other options that are out there. you know, maybe it's because of my own C-P-T-S-D, but I'm like, this never leaves yet. It's exhausting.

But also, again, like for me, thematically, I was thinking of it less has depression, which is definitely very clearly there as well and more of a larger, like, mental health thing. And also, you know, feeling very aware that we're living in a time where we keep talking about how, like, we need more community rather than isolation. That's how we're going to get through life right now. And so to me, it just felt it had its finger on the pulse. If you will in a way that is not always true for some of these Marvel movies. Yeah. But I just really, like, felt like it was justified in some of the characters.

And I also felt like Lewis Pullman had a good performance. Like, I enjoyed him as well. I appreciated how much he looks like his dad, Bill Pullman, who I have nothing but affection for. Did not know that was his father until today. Now I get it. Yeah. I do have one last thing that I need to point out because my brain got so excited by

how stupid it is, which is just this is Lewis Pullman's second major role as a Bob. He's just Bob in this movie and he was in Top Gun Maverick as the only person who had a call sign that was not like an interesting

name. His name was Bob. So I don't know what it is about him being Bob where half the joke is just that the name Bob doesn't quite convey the strength of his character, but I like that trivia. If it works, it works. You need a bob, give me a call.

I don't know. I'm watching MCU movies because I like the punching and kicking and I like the quips and all of that, you know. And I feel like at one point in the movie, they show up as a team and start beating the crap out of these soldiers. And I was like, finally, just give me this for the third act. And I feel like when it slipped out of that into something else. And then eventually when it resolves at whatever place, Glenn, I'm like you saying, what? Like, where did this happen? Where were you all?

It was the friends we made a long time. the way. Correct. What's up like. Yeah, that's the thing. I like both parts, you know. But I feel like you get that in Gardens of the Galaxy when they hold hands in order to disperse the infinity stone.

I'm like, you get a little taste of that, which is like seasoning, as opposed to just be like, we're going to do all that, which is just a pot of seasoning. No, no liquid, just seasonings. I just don't agree. Can we talk about Julia Louis Dreyfus? I really like what she brings to the MCU. And in an interview she's mentioned how she was eager to get into this. You know, she's done previous things for Marvel with this character because it's something she'd never done before, she says.

I'm sorry. She might not have done Marvel movies before, but this is Selena Meyer. This is Selena Meyer. And in Josie and the Pussy Cat's Alexandra Whig. There is no daylight between Selena Meyer and Valentina. She treats her underlings exactly the same way. She's just as scheming and just as funny. Yeah.

Daisy and I left the theater and said the exact same thing. We said there's no difference here, which is fine. I love Selena Meyer and I love Julie Louis Dreyfus, but isn't a big deal that it's Salina Meyer, I guess, is the real question. Does this lead to Tony Hale playing Colossus at some point? If that happens,

I think we'll all be excited. Kevin Fagie, call me, I've got ideas. It's hard for Julia Louis Dreyfus to do any wrong, honestly. She's just, she's great. She's fun to watch. She is great. I do think that these movies do have villain problems a lot of times. The villains can be kind of,

a generic, and it is nice to see a villain that has, like, a thing and is funny and is, you know, kind of complicated. So, yeah, I like her a lot, you know, even though this is a lane that she's driven in before. When you talk about the villain, it just occurred to be that in terms of the villain in this movie, this villain is not very different from the villain in Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness in terms of, like, the type of temperament that is causing the issue and the darkness with everything, because these superheroes are all punching. kicking superheroes, you know what I mean? It just felt like, why wouldn't we give someone that matches that, that they can actually

defeat as opposed to, like, you know, having to rely on the power of friendship? You know, I do realize that we're talking about this movie in terms of, like, all the other movies. And it's hard not to, you know, when things are this interconnected and this, like, you know, kind of all-consuming. But when these started, they were pretty reliable and sturdy. You kind of knew what you were going to get. And even the ones that were a triple and not a home run were still really fun to watch. And I think that, like, we are now in a state where they got cranked out too fast.

But I think we're now in a phase where, like, they're just going to be more hit and miss. And I think if you're out there and you're going, oh, my God, do I see this one? You know, just pay attention to your reviews a little closer. It's maybe not something you're just automatically buying a ticket to on opening nights. Yeah, but I do still think there is, like, a lot of fun in this franchise. and if you don't mind skipping some things and then maybe doing a little Wikipedia research before you go into the movie.

I think there's still a lot of fun here. Yeah. And not to spoil anything, but the very final exchange of dialogue in this film is about diluted branding and not living up to a name. And I have to feel that that is intentional. I have to feel that they knew exactly what they were doing there

and that that is a setup to Phase 6, whatever the hell that means. Oh, yeah. I definitely feel like they were like, look, we can't fix everything, but we need you to know that we have heard some of what you've said. Not all of what you said, but some of what you said. Phase six, it's coming, and it's all musicals. Whoa. Again, from your mouth, man. I mean, like, I would not hate it. Again, I got ideas. All right. Well, tell us what you think about Thunderbolts.

Find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash P-C-H-H and on letterboxed at letterboxed.com slash NPR podcast. culture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week. Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What is making us happy this week? Jordan Morris kick us off. What's making you happy this week, sir? Yeah, I want to recommend a graphic novel that you can grab when you're out there at your local comic bookstore picking up your Thunderbolts issues to bone up for the movie. I just read a great graphic novel called You Belong Here, written by Sarah Phoebe Miller, illustrated by Morgan beam. It is kind of a

way a coming of age story about senior year of high school. It just does like a really great job of capturing just how like emotionally fraught and like hyper specific that year is. Yeah, it's got really, really lovely art and I think it'd make a great graduation

gift if you've got anybody in that age range in your life. Super bonus points if they're a theater kid because there's a lot of great jokes and observations about being a theater kid, which I really Appreciate it. Yeah, it's called You Belong Here, and it's great. Thank you very much, Jordan Morris. That sounds great. Daisy Rosaria. What is making you happy this week? So what's making me happy? I was recently scrolling through YouTube as I am wont to do, and I came across this video that's part of a series that I've really enjoyed before. It's called I Like to Watch. And it is a YouTube series, essentially a Netflix sponsorship where drag queens who have been on RuPaul's Drag Race watch Netflix releases.

and talk about them. The U.S. version features Katia and Trixie Mattel. But the one I came across was the UK version, and it was an episode with Tia Coffee and the Vivian, who is a fantastic drag queen who actually just recently passed away. She's so funny. So I immediately hit play on this video because they were talking about the thing that is actually making me happy,

which is not a new movie, but it makes me so happy every time I'm reminded of it. Eurovision Song Contest, the story of Fire Saga. I love this ridiculous Will Ferrell Rachel McAdams movie on Netflix. I have watched it a bunch of times. I will watch it many more. It was so fun to watch these two queens who I love, watch a truncated version of it and make very good jokes.

And then, of course, I had to actually go watch it again. It is such a treat. The Eurovision Song Contest itself, I know PCA, H has covered before. It's coming up just a few weeks away. So this could be a fantastic way to wet your appetite. I love it. So the main recommendation is Netflix's Eurovision Song Contest, the story of Fire Saga movie. You know, technically a secondary recommendation of watching this YouTube series I like to watch with the Queen's Tia Coffee and the Vivian, rest in peace, the Vivian. That is a great recommendation. Thank you for that, Daisy. I was down on the

Eurovision movie when it first came out because I thought, why would we make fun of something that knows how to make fun of itself? But I have since come around. It's great. And Hussevick should have won the Oscar for Best Song. Yes. Well, that leads me directly into my recommendation because I think, Daisy, you can feel it in the air. You can smell the smoke and the glitter and the sequin glue and the dance belts and the sweat. That is the smell of Eurovision baby. And it's bearing down on us all. The 2025 Eurovision final will air on Peacock on Saturday, May 17th. It is the 69th Eurovision Song Contest, and some countries are having a bit more fun with that than others. There's a lot of songs with very kind of cheesy single entendres this year, but you've got to deal with that.

My favorite entry plays a lot more straight. It's from Sweden. And that's controversial because historically Sweden are the Yankees of Eurovision. I had to look that reference up. They win a lot, is what I'm saying. But I can't help it. I love Sweden's entry. They're actually a Finnish group called Kai.

they are singing in Swedish, which turns out to be a big deal because the first time Sweden has set a song in Swedish since 1998. The song is called Bada-Bada-Bastu, and it's about going to the sauna because, of course, it is. Sauna. In case you're wondering, because I'm sure you are, the lyrics there are, we're going to sauna, sauna. Steam it up and let go of all stress today. Sauna brothers, we're the ones who glow. 100 degrees, oh yes, just sauna, sauna. throw it on till the sweat just sprays.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Sona, yeah, yeah. And at that point, one of the band members just goes, Sauna, which is an interjection that has gotten a lot of use in the Weldon Nune's household for the late. For no reason, just throw in the sauna every so often and your day will get better. Your revision is on Peacock on Saturday, May 17th.

All right, let's close out with Ronald Young Jr. Ronald Young, Jr., what is making you happy? be this week. I feel like my pick is just not as good as the Eurovision double feature we just add. A few things are. I will say, speaking of sequins, glue, and sweat, Andor is back on Disney Plus. I think Andor is the best thing Star Wars has made since the original trilogies, if I'm being honest. It's a Boots on the ground version of the Star Wars universe where we're talking about people that are actually in the rebellion, experiencing the oppression of the empire. It's a spinoff of Rogue One, if folks liked that movie.

But it's back for season two, and it's funny because they're advertising it as the final season, which I love that they're ending it. It's over, meaning that it has a great shot of ending very, very well. I watched the first three episodes. I was perfectly satisfied with them. I know they're going on a journey. And I feel like if you're not a fan of Star Wars, I think you would still like Andor. And if you are a fan of Star Wars and you don't like Andor, then I'm wondering what exactly do you like about Star Wars? And I'm assuming it's the space wizards and the laser swords, which some people prefer.

So if that's your jam, then that's what it is. But that's Andor on Disney Plus. All right. So Ronald Young Jr., that's what's making you happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org slash pop culture newsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Daisy Rosario, Ronald Young Jr., Jordan. Morris. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, this was a blast. Thank you so much. This episode was produced by Mike Katzv and Liz Metzker and edited by Jessica Reedy and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all next week. Sauta.