Postgres FM - Postgres online communities

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

Nikolay and Michael discuss online Postgres communities — the ones they prefer, the types of conversations in each, and some other places to ask questions or follow news.  Here are some links to things they mentioned:https://www.postgresql.org/communityMailing lists https://www.postgresql.org/listIRC https://www.postgresql.org/community/ircSlack https://pgtreats.info/slack-inviteStack Overflow https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/postgresDBA Stack Exchange https://dba.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/postgresReddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PostgreSQLDiscord https://discord.gg/bW2hsax8WeHow to run ANALYZE (merge request discussion) https://gitlab.com/postgres-ai/postgresql-consulting/postgres-howtos/-/merge_requests/35This episode on YouTube https://postgresqlco.nfPlanet PostgreSQL https://planet.postgresql.orgPostgres Weekly https://postgresweekly.com~~~What did you like or not like? What should we discuss next time? Let us know via a YouTube comment, on social media, or by commenting on our Google doc!~~~Postgres FM is produced by:Michael Christofides, founder of pgMustardNikolay Samokhvalov, founder of Postgres.aiWith special thanks to:Jessie Draws for the elephant artwork 

Hello and welcome to PostgresFM, a weekly show about all things PostgresQL. I am Michael, founder of PGMaster. This is my co-host Nikolai, founder of PostgresAI. Hey Nikolai, how's it going? Hi Michael, everything is all right. How are you? I'm good, thank you. So this week it was my choice and I have picked the topic of Postgres online communities,

partly because when I was new to Postgres I would have loved this kind of conversation as to if I've got a question if I've got like a deeply technical question where should I post it or how should I post it there's so many online forums communities social media sites that I found it quite daunting to kind of know where were people what kind of things worked well in different places that kind of thing so I thought I what kind of things worked well in different places, that kind of thing. So I thought I'd bring that and see. I know we're kind of on slightly different social networks or where we tend to spend more of our time.

So I'd be really interested in your views on why you like the ones that you like, that kind of thing as well. Yeah. Well, first of all, we exclude offline communities, right? Yeah. And for example, long ago in Russia, I was organizing meetups. But then we had a rise in 2014 and 2015, 2016, and then I saw a decline.

And I saw a decline in the Bay Area, where I moved around the same time before that. So I was visiting both places and I saw a decline of this kind of offline communities on both parts of the world. And I still don't understand why, because at the same time, front-enders had huge meetups. And at some point, I decided to move fully online, all my attention and focus and activities. You know, last time I stopped going to conferences. So I like online because online you can communicate asynchronously. This is the key, right? You can think and follow up and so on.

And you can do it with your convenience. Of course, we lack a lot of stuff online, but for our work online is great because you can share code, pictures, everything, discussing. Actually, some online formats are not like that. For example, podcast. And I know we have our own small community of permanent listeners, and I'm thankful to the fact it's growing. It's really good to hear feedback, to see feedback, to see from customers mentioning that they constantly listen to our podcast. It's great. It feels great. lot of various places right there's no there's no big central place there are quite big places

right but there's no a single well maybe we should start there because on the i thought i'd go to the postgresql.org site and there's a one of the top headers is community and that links to mailing lists like single community single community, right? I guess so, yeah. I think it's just community with a Y. Yeah, so one community. But it links to mailing lists, which I think probably would count as the big hub.

Like if you want to say that the official online community of Postgres is probably the mailing lists. Yeah, mailing lists and IRC. I don't remember. That's the other one. IRC is like, ooh. And I know they say community, like single, single community, but I don't feel I belong to this community. We discussed a few times in the past, I think there is a bigger community and how I see it, it's different from the definition of this so-called official community, right?

So, but you say communities, so many, many of them, right? I see, I'm closer to you in this understanding. So there are many groups and they are interconnected. And the single community, it's like, it's good. There is such concept, but it's against open source idea. Because open source idea, there should be many, many, many, many, many things around, right? So, well, mining list I don't like.

IRC I don't almost touch. It means this also, like this is just form, but there is also content deviation, right? And there are many other places where people live. And I remember times, now it's much less, but I remember times when something was discussed somewhere and always some people obviously feeling belonging to the main community. They started saying, oh, it it's not right place to discuss things you should go to mailing list my reaction is yeah obviously if i react as i want to react you will cut this out so i won't react publicly but i guess our listeners can guess my reaction if i want to be on twitter or on

telegram or slack i want to be there that's it i guess it's a bit about like development processes so when i've i've got a background of being a product manager and part of your job as being a product manager is listening to your customers listening to what people think of your software and you can encourage them to use the official forums. Maybe your product set has an official way of giving you feedback. But if you want the truth of what people really think of your software, you need to make sure you're also on social media and looking at mentions of your brand wherever people are talking about it, not just via your official thing.

So I think i've seen some of those conversations and i understand what probably people whether whether they say it in a nice way or not what they're probably trying to say is if you want the maximum chance of your feedback being listened to constructively and actually some improvements coming off the back of it you're best off reporting it in the official channels, like the official places. But from the flip side, I've definitely seen a lot of people that have got very high influence in the

Postgres development circles, hanging out on Twitter, but in IRC, on LinkedIn, wherever people are talking about Postgres, you know, their product and doing that product management kind of role of listening to what issues people are having, listening to what suggestions people have. So while some in the community or communities might encourage the more constructive places to have that conversation, there are also people listening and interacting everywhere else as well.

So I can see both sides. Yeah, but there are no postgres managers in this project. Yeah. So if some hacker listens in some place and just picks up the idea, that's great. Exactly. Yeah. But it's like just random, right?

Well, I think random's a bit... Well, yeah, I see what you mean. It relies a lot on those individual hackers. But that's Postgres development. Postgres development, there's no roadmap. There's no... We all rely on individual hackers to do various things. Yeah.

And form matters. I don't like email. I don't like IRC. So what? If I prefer, for example, Twitter and I keep calling it Twitter and I don't like Elon Musk and so on. But it's just comfort zone. And you mentioned Blue Sky before we decided. Oh, yeah.

That was one of the reasons. So it looks very like Twitter. So I thought I'd bring this conversation up now because i saw a lot of people a lot of technical folks that i follow on twitter on mastodon i'm quite i'm probably the most active the place i read the most is on mastodon because i'm seeing some really good technical conversations happening there a lot of those people are checking out blue sky this week last week it feels like a not necessarily people are switching to it but a lot of people seem to be checking it out this week so they've gone from like i think something like 10 million users to about 15 million users in a

overall week oh total so it's still tiny so who knows how many of them use podcast maybe just a few what all i mean is more that like it's still tiny i didn't want this conversation to be about tiny. So who knows how many of them use Postgres, maybe just a few. What all I mean is more that like, it's still tiny. I didn't want this conversation to be about that. But I thought, oh, it's actually a good time to discuss where are the good conversations happening around Postgres. If you want to keep in the loop of what's happening, are you best off having profiles like in which ones, which site should you be checking? Like these are the kind of questions I had at the beginning and kind of just had to figure it all out myself. Yeah, I think a lot of good conversations are happening on both Twitter and LinkedIn. It's just there is critical mass there. And I just feel very comfortable discussing something on Twitter. And I know many, many, many hackers also, and

just very experienced users, not only from this Postgres community, like from capital C, but also from like backend engineering in general, with good experience of Postgres and good problems they observe. They are there and just sharing sometimes ideas. It's super, like, I feel really comfortable just on Twitter. And I know Slack is huge.

It's an official, right it's it's this slack i think like how many more than 10 000 people there just for postgres and special slack uh space right and work workspace how is it called and uh yeah many many discussions and troubleshooting sessions are happening right there. I think it's already kind of a good alternative to IRC. Yeah, I would say. So I definitely am more positive about the mailing lists and IRC than you are. I do find email really helpful. And I still think it's incredible the quality of support you can get on both of those. So as a user, not necessarily as like a...

So as a hacker, you have to use the mailing list like it's the the way of communicating but the other mailing lists the non-hackers ones so like general performance a few others i find it amazing that you can email the performance mailing list and probably within a day maybe within a few days you're hearing back from very very experienced postgres hackers about your specific performance question and it and it helps if you've if you've done some background and given them really good information to go on but even the people that don't do that get great advice or at least encouraged to get to find out the things they need to be able to be helped which is unbelievable like when when you consider what you like that's

free support it's i think that's incredible and then irc is a similar standard it's not threaded i love the emails threaded and asynchronous irc is like the opposite it's not threaded and it's very very synchronous so i i actually hadn't i when i first joined postgres because of i suspect this community site i spent quite a lot of time logged into irc you know watching the conversations as they were happening and asking the odd question myself and i did learn a lot there are some extremely experienced people on that that are still very active and still help people but to give you some numbers there's about 800 people live in the postgresql irc channel how many years ago 800 or 783 right this minute

and there's 24 000 in the postgresql slack at the christine I'm checking Russian-speaking Postgres Telegram, and it has more than 13,000 members right now and more than 5,000 online. Oh, wow. But quality of discussions there, I cannot stay there for more than 10 seconds because it's like, ah. As in, is it beginner-level questions questions it's very beginner a lot like like it's like huge wave of beginners and they have sometimes emotional discussions

not quality like like sure sometimes collapsing like clashing into each other and so on and i can check also english speaking telegram groups have like a couple of thousand people, maybe less. Yeah. Actually, I created one. It has more than 2,000 members, 165 online, and there is an alternative one, almost 3,000 members, 300 online. And I don't know about the other, the second one, but that one I created well it also sometimes

not good quality it's better quality than than russian speaking but when people share screenshots with poor like you cannot understand what's written there and it's terminal so like it's just text but there's screenshot on or even not screenshot a picture made from phone. Yeah. It's just... And I'll just wait. Maybe someday we will create, you know, GPT API has it. Like we can understand automatically and just, you know, transform to text from the picture. Someday we will probably have such bot, you know.

But sometimes really interesting discussions, but often no often no so i visit this group maybe like once a week yeah so i personally avoid though that i find these huge channels that are not threaded impossible well telegram was like kind of threaded you can it's not it's not convenient it's not like in slack right in slack it's great that i actually find the postgresql it's like even though it's 24 000 members there's probably only about in at least in the general channel there's probably only five or six new conversations per day and people have got into a really good habit of replying to those in threads so if you're

interested in a thread you can post in it or you can get notified of new replies most people are familiar with how slack works but it means that if you're not interested in a part of a conversation you can not follow it whereas in telegram or if you're in one of these non-threaded environments you can't avoid it you could all you can do is log out for a while you know you know just not check it for a while you know or you know just not check it for a while scroll for a while and so i yeah i find those quite difficult but as a imagine you're sending email right well email has topics i mean like there are threads obviously right but yeah but sometimes there's huge discussion and it's hard to there should be some sub threads right some tree

but there is no such thing there yeah so yeah definitely pros and cons but it's really I think it's good that there are places that beginners can go to ask questions and get help it's remarkable that people are willing to help them but I've got a huge amount of respect for the people

that do have the patience for those conversations I agree i see people with huge experience i know there's people and they're still there like dealing with this storm of new people we're asking well it's just you know like some people enjoy it helping others and then i can understand i can relate i did it also in the past on stack Overflow, for example, right? Another place where... Another great place. Another additional community, right? And if you just like helping people, it's great. Yeah, there is critical mass for sure. And yeah, there are sometimes good discussions

even if there are many, many, many, many new users. Yeah. I actually think I wanted to give Stack Overflow or at least Stack exchange there's a dba.stack exchange as well that's great and reddit i think i want to put in a similar category because i think they surface they surface answers quite well so there's they're quite good at showing up in search results so if people are using a search engine to ask their basic beginner question there's a decent chance they'll come across a Stack Overflow post

or a Reddit post increasingly that has a good discussion already on the topic. And they maybe then don't have to ask the exact same question again via Telegram or Slack, which don't have as good search, or at least they don't have long histories. Well, actually, maybe Telegram does, but people don't seem to use it. Yeah, you know, I'm checking Telegram right now, and actually, the last many days, I don't see these pictures of console made on phone. And quite good discussions.

And I see people use threads. If Telegram has kind of virtual threads, it's still flat, but you can open specific discussion. If people use reply, you can see only part of it, kind of thread, but visually it's not thread, right? So yeah, and I agree with you on Stack Overflow points. I cannot agree on Reddit. Maybe I just have not a lot of experience hanging out there. What about Hacker News?

Just to quickly, oh yeah, let's get to Hacker News. I think Reddit is surprisingly good. Like, I think it's the PostgreSQL Reddit. I'm not talking about Reddit generally, but the PostgreSQL subreddit specifically. There must be some people, and I've set this up recently as well, I think it's the PostgreSQL Reddit. I'm not talking about Reddit generally, but the PostgreSQL subreddit specifically. There must be some people, and I've set this up recently as well, that subscribe to the RSS feed of new posts to Reddit. Again, there's probably only something in the region of five to ten new posts per day to the Reddit. And some of that is people sharing blog posts and, you know, promoting things that they've written or they've found good posts from other people. But a lot of it is beginner level questions and there are some people again some of the same people i'll give definitely people like i see depeche on pretty much all of these helping

people out and i that guy has such good patience and so helpful to people but people like sean thomas in the discord there's a discord as well that has a very similar beginner friendly vibe um david johnson i'm sure there's tons of people that we could give shouts out to but even on the even on the reddit people are replying same day often within within an hour of the post with very helpful stuff um so it's surprisingly synchronous for an asynchronous channel a bit like the email thread a bit like the mailing list and a bit like stack overflow you know you can get an answer really quickly for something that's designed to be asynchronous and then i think they're doing a better and better job of surfacing those questions to people asking

the same via google so if if to people asking the same via Google. So if you're asking the same question someone asked two years ago, there's a really good chance you'll still find it via the Reddit. Whereas I don't think that's true. Like on Slack, for example, the history is invisible after a certain number of messages. 30 days if it's not paid, of course, for 23,000 people, it's not paid. Because it would cost something to give you an idea of volume in terms of just numbers there's 47 000 people that have joined the postgresql subreddit 47 000 over many years right over many years yeah not well it says it

it's super easy to join there because it's it like in Slack. You need to pass through some gateways. There is just a one-button follower. That's it. The Slack one is not necessarily easy to find the invitation link. So I'll post that in the show notes. Yeah. And what about, again, what about Hacker News? And what about maybe MetaThreads or some new stuff, some new places

well I actually don't even have I don't have an account on meta threads I saw a couple of Postgres folks there but not active I think it's not for Postgres yet and who knows there are many discussions there and they push all the time

notifying through Instagram or maybe through Facebook, I don't know I use Instagram for family pictures so I see notifications from thread about different topics not about Postgres yet we're probably the wrong generation for that but I definitely only use Instagram for personal stuff rather than for professional things what about Hacker News it It's not social network. It's just single place, right? Topics, random topics. Postgres is on front page.

Postgres-related topics are very often on front page. I think Hacker News is a good place for seeing things that are happening in the tech space in general. But if you relied only on hacker news for your news around postgres i think you'd be missing out on a bunch i think only certain types of topics do well they have to be i don't know quite i don't know quite how to define what it is it seems to be a certain depth of technical article does really well on there, but not too niche. And also I think there's maybe like a dev,

it's very dev focused rather than DBA. Like it feels very backend or full stack developer crowd. And there's many more of such people around, right? So in general, backend number of backend engineers is many more than like database engineers. For example,

there can be extremely good conversation. I know it gets a bad reputation for the quality of conversation on this in some circles, but sometimes I come across really good conversations there, and sometimes it's people that really know their stuff from the database world popping

into Hackenews to help, you know, to answer some questions or to comment on some things. This is a place where you intersect with other very different communities. Because you can see people who hate Postgres, they come in to comment.

Unlike, I think they don't go to Postgres Slack to comment how they hate Postgres right they are on Hacker News even on Reddit if you don't like you don't follow so you don't participate but on Hacker News if some topic Postgres related is on front page obviously

some people will comment with some hate speech little bit but not often not often but in general obviously people often, but in general, obviously, like, people love Postgres in general, this is for true, like, for sure. But sometimes there is, there are useful grains in this, not hateful speech, but you know, like skepticism, and sometimes you hear people struggle with MVCC design and bloat or something, they just like complain. And these people are quite

good educated and good engineers. So it's like, Hacker News is a place where you can hear people struggling with some issues Postgres still has. And this cannot be ignored, right? So this is a place where people express in very technical, very good technical form what's the problem. Yeah, and I would add Twitter to that as well as a place where you can get that. Exactly. And LinkedIn, LinkedIn as well. LinkedIn.

Yes. Although I've seen less of it on LinkedIn for some reason. I don't see that much negativity about Postgres on LinkedIn for some reason. Maybe just the people I'm connected to. Maybe LinkedIn just deprioritize negative stuff and just prioritize positive stuff, right? People just congratulate with every step in career all the time. This is what LinkedIn is, right? Like, what a great post. everything's so good this is just

corporate style you know but true it is more positive stuff isn't it that is a good point yeah but i like to find problems and think about them so yeah i think most of these communities are not great for self-promotion but linkedin is one that where promoting your own stuff is encouraged and it's very much part of the culture so i actually think that might be worth knowing if you if you're looking to be able to promote your own blog posts or your own videos and things that that is a good reputation right to build reputation as an expert LinkedIn I think is a good way to collect to gather attention and yeah yeah true share ideas collect feedback yeah but I would expect true feedback not on LinkedIn on Twitter maybe because on LinkedIn, yeah, well, I don't know. Maybe just like some overall impression.

But yeah, what else? There are sometimes unexpected communities. I mean, discussions. For example, remember we discussed limitations of analyze single-threaded and how to run it multiple threads, and I created how to. It's still, this merge request on GitLab is still not merged. Right? Because suddenly we started having discussions there. And a couple of folks chimed in and started sharing experiences.

Right. And it's interesting because new things appeared and I explore new things. For example, this post-upgrade analysis of partitioning, partition tables turned out neither vacuum DB nor auto-vacuum take care about root partition tables. They don't update statistics at all. If you run it manually, it's updated both for individual partitions and main root table.

But vacuumDB doesn't do it. And it means post-upgrade, if you do need the statistics, you need to additionally to vacuumDB, you need additional single-threaded analyzer on partition tables. It's kind of interesting, right? And there is no analyze only.

So if you run on partition tables, it will scan also partitions. So it's like some rabbit hole I didn't expect at all. And these discussions are happening still in Merge Request, you know? And they are threaded. It's like commenting particular piece of my write-up, it's definitely threaded on GitHub and on GitLab. It's very convenient. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that that is happening there because it's great for sharing code and for being specific. And you can write a really long... If your comment is best communicated as a very long piece of writing,

that's easy. On Twitter, that's trickier is you don't have code formatting and there's like a few subtleties of that being much easier to communicate clearly on some of these other forums yeah so what i think is to get all my i have almost 100 how to's written like started a year ago then I had a marathon lasting three months or so. So I'm thinking to create a book, online, free book, constantly growing on GitHub, GitLab, maybe on both,

and having community around it. Some small community, you know, people who want to have good runbooks, how-tos, how to analyze at full speed, for example. Vacuum DB and like number of cores, what to think about and so on. This is a simple task at first glance, but it turned out not so simple. Yeah, things not to forget. And yeah, I just need to structure these recipes.

And I'm very curious what people think. Let's test it. Let's test if we have community. I ask people who listen to this, until this point, please comment somewhere. If you listen on YouTube, you know there is a comment section below, as always people say. But if it's broadcast, just Twitter. Yeah, I use Twitter. say but if it's if it's broadcast just twitter or yeah i use i use twitter so you you can just comment there because we have postgresfm account on twitter right well yeah but if anybody else

was thinking of starting a podcast around this i originally i think if you'd asked me in week one would i recommend doing it to youtube as well i wouldn't have been that fussed i would thought it's not that big a deal um most people are going to listen to your podcast via the audio stream so it doesn't matter that much but we would have missed out on so many comments it's the the barrier to to leaving somebody some feedback via a podcast about an audio only podcast it's hassle you have to look it up or you have to write a review it's that it's always tricky it's always a little bit of extra work the barrier to writing a comment when you're watching a video on youtube is so low that we get the vast majority even though

most of our listeners don't listen on youtube the vast majority of our feedback and comments come on YouTube. Yeah. My ask is to go to postgiz.tv. It will redirect to YouTube channel where we also publish PostGizFM podcast and under this episode, please comment if you think it's a good idea. Because I'm thinking for some time and I just need

understanding that it will be useful for other folks. Because I'm not doing for for myself for myself i already wrote a lot of stuff but i want to publish for free and see if this resonates and is is actually useful my i was like a bunch of how to's yeah do i i don't know if i have to leave a comment on youtube but i would find that useful. Good. Plus one. Yeah. Yeah. Plus one. I think,

and maybe I have a bias here, but I've seen places kind of try to encourage community involvement before. And it's been a little, like sometimes the way that you have these discus things or you have, like, I think there's a site I like by the team at ongress called postgres girl, co.nf. And that has,

it has a whole section for comments but either nobody does or the quality of the comments or like are dubious so maybe some kind of i don't know how you would encourage comments or and also moderate them for quality and things it's a tricky topic i i our website postgresqli website and blog section doesn't have comments there is a request and there is demand for comments

people ask from time to time my idea is this goes and all

the approach to comments doesn't work this morning I wanted you know we discussed topic about

query ID and auto explain and the fact that on Aurora it didn't work

and then it turned out that it was Postgres 15 and I

saw a blog post on AWS blog and there are a couple of comments there asking why it doesn't work and I wanted to leave a comment sharing my finding which I thank you actually comes from you that it starts working only since

Postgres 16. I spent 20 minutes trying to register there and like created the Blitz builder account. I have builder account, but they say it's already blocked. I just created it. Why it's blocked for violation of something. So these comments don't work. And also I feel the urge to create something new here, but I don't know what, like we just discussed that there are sometimes comments in merge requests or pull requests, and they are very contextual. They belong to some part of the text or the code. And what if you publish an article, normal thing is, I think you also have it, source code is already published on GitHub, for example, right? Sometimes even there is an edit button to propose correction of typo. Also, not many people do it, right? But what if the discussion would be coming from GitHub or something

and related to code? I don't know. It's a job of GitLab to provide some snippet so I could embed into my website and have a discussion maybe leading to some corrections or additions to the text and improving it. So this is something I'm thinking, but it doesn't exist yet. GitHub doesn't provide it. GitLab doesn't provide it.

Maybe it's a good idea for them to consider. For those who keep Markdown, for example, there on GitHub or GitLab, and then it's a good idea for them to consider for those who keep markdown, for example, there on GitHub or GitLab. And then it's published to like in form of blog post. Right. Because if you have discourse, it's disconnected from, from everything.

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in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in comments work, right? Yeah, same on my blog. Oh, great, great. What do you use? I use Squarespace for that blog, yeah. But it works. But I like having comments enabled, but I also like to be able to moderate them.

If someone leaves a spam link and then needs to delete it, like if someone, you spam link in them needs delete it like if someone you know so they are important and i find them really i actually find them quite energizing most comments are really positive like some people just saying thank you for writing a post that's helped them so i feel like that's quite nice and it's also quite nice for other people to then read that that it helped us others you know i think that's quite almost like makes you feel like other people have actually come across the same issues as you that kind of thing you know community stuff yeah so anyway like folks who listen to us please leave a comment on youtube and say if you

think it's a good idea to have my how to's published in different form, in form of book, online book. And also just say simple words if you consider this podcast useful. We need it, right? Do you know, actually something I didn't even think to bring up was, I've seen, both of us have done it, but I've seen you have quite a lot of success with this, polls on certain social media. Oh yeah, on Twitter. it works on twitter very well yeah and i think linkedin quite well as well like people are way more likely to be able to answer a poll than to answer a question on some of these some of these sites yeah and it can be really helpful i know it's biased i like polls yeah well it's it always depends like, you can influence it, choosing proper language and, like, options you can influence. But I mostly consider it more like fun, but sometimes good insight.

Yeah, that's cool. But the bias thing, I actually didn't mean as much the wording, which can definitely sway. Survey design and stuff is a whole another topic. But I actually meant bias because who does it reach like it reaches your followers and then depends a lot on who likes it retweets it that kind of thing of course as to who it's even reaching so for example if you with your followers asking a question about postgresql versus mysq, it would unlikely be a representative poll. It is so. But this is my small world and I like it and I'm curious what people around

my Twitter account think. This is what I'm most interested in. I'm not interested in people who are just very far and MySQL users and what they think about PitcherDump. Although sometimes we have intersections as well, and quite often CEO of PlanetScale chimes in asking something about Postgres, so it's interesting. Which, by the way, that's incredible, right? We're having a conversation online, and the CEO of PlanetScale... Well, I don't have such, how to say, perception.

So CEO, so what? It's good that I'm dealing with himself, not with his assistant. Because sometimes, you know, democracy works in the US, for example, but I cannot reach the director of my daughter's elementary school because she sends assistant organized zoom call and doesn't respond to emails for two weeks. Yeah, well, I just appreciate when any level of manager, they just go and talk directly. It's great.

And listen to users. Whether or not it's listening is another question, I guess. Actually, before we wrap up, I had a couple of others just quick. They're not really communities, but I realized when you mentioned Hacker News, it was kind of like a little bit of staying in touch with what's happening. And I realized I actually rely on non-community. Well, I guess one's relatively community driven, which is Planet Postgres, which is a blogging syndication platform. That's kind of a community site in a way.

Lots of people from non-official sources posting about postgres and i find that an extremely helpful way of staying in the loop of what people are thinking about what issues people are hitting what products people are building that kind of thing and on a similar vein especially if you don't want to follow all of those postgres weekly is a good newsletter for like what are the highlights this week from the postgres world. Yeah. Is there anything else in that kind of vein that you'd point people to? Well, I don't think newsletters are communities because you don't have a full-on discussion there. But yeah, I agree.

It's a good source of what's happening. Yeah, true. Any last advice or things for people? Well, thank you for all who are listening to us we will just like very interesting topics are coming i must say stay tuned yeah i like that as a i i'm going to consider that a performance pun stay oh yeah performance tuned as well stay tuned yeah exactly good all right take care thanks a lot nikolai thank you bye