Postgres FM - Sponsoring the community

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Michael is joined by Claire Giordano, Head of Postgres Open Source Community Initiatives at Microsoft, to discuss several ways to contribute to the Postgres community — from core contributions, to extensions, to events, and (of course) podcasts. Here are some links to things they mentioned:What’s new with Postgres at Microsoft (blog post by Claire) https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/azure-database-for-postgresql/what-s-new-with-postgres-at-microsoft-2024-edition/ba-p/4140085 Citus https://github.com/citusdata/citus Fibonacci Spirals and 21 Ways to Contribute to Postgres Beyond Code (talk by Claire) https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/postgresql_fibonacci_spirals_and_21_ways_to_contribute_to_postgres_beyond_code/ How to contribute to PostgreSQL or, 50 Ways To Love Your Project (talk slides by Josh Berkus) https://berkus.org/pdf_presos/50_ways.pdf pgconf dot dev https://2024.pgconf.dev/ POSETTE: An Event for Postgres https://www.citusdata.com/posette About Talk Selection for POSETTE https://www.citusdata.com/blog/2024/04/22/about-talk-selection-for-posette-an-event-for-postgres-2024/ Claire’s video about how to say Postgres, PostgreSQL, Citus, and a few questionably named Microsoft things https://x.com/clairegiordano/status/1503784151614320640 Citus goes fully open source https://www.citusdata.com/blog/2024/04/22/about-talk-selection-for-posette-an-event-for-postgres-2024/Contributor Profiles https://www.postgresql.org/community/contributors/ Mastodon post by Álvaro Herrera (of EDB) https://lile.cl/@alvherre/112444579030481334 Talking Postgres podcast (formerly called Path To Citus Con): https://talkingpostgres.com/~~~What did you like or not like? What should we discuss next time? Let us know via a YouTube comment, on social media, or by commenting on our Google doc!~~~Postgres FM is produced by:Michael Christofides, founder of pgMustardNikolay Samokhvalov, founder of Postgres.aiWith special thanks to:Jessie Draws for the elephant artwork 

Hello and welcome to PostgresFM, a weekly show about all things PostgresQL. I am Michael, founder of PGMustard, and this week with Nikolai taking a well-earned week off, I am super grateful to be joined by Claire Giordano, the head of Postgres open source community initiatives at Microsoft and host of a fellow Postgres podcast. Welcome to the show, Claire. Thank you so much. It's exciting to be here, Michael. I'm a big fan of your show and danced a jig when you invited me on.

Oh, well, likewise. You know, I've listened to every episode of Claire's podcast and was also delighted to be on it recently. So thank you for joining me. And you recently published a fantastic recap of a lot of Postgres initiatives going on at Microsoft, obviously, but also have spoken at lots of people who know you from the podcast, but also from the conferences that you speak at, that you organize and all sorts of ways that you contribute to the Postgres community yourself. Do you want to give us a little bit of background on how you got involved in this and also why you do it, why it's important to you? Well, let's see. I first got involved in Postgres back in 2017.

And that's when I joined a small San Francisco startup called Citus Data. I've worked in engineering. I've worked in product management. I've worked in product marketing. And it was wearing the product marketing that I joined Citus. And obviously, Citus is an open source extension to Postgres. And so that's what brought me into the Postgres community. And people who were there will tell you that I kind of said no a couple times first. I didn't think of myself as a database person. And so I just wasn't sure if it was the right fit. I'd worked

in operating systems. I'd worked in scale-out storage. I'd worked in developer tools. But was Postgres, were databases the next place for me? And so I had some hesitations in the beginning. And I'm so glad that other folks persisted in nudging me to talk to the team at Citus because I love my job and I love working with the Postgres community. So yeah, from my team at Citus because I love my job and I love working with Postgres community. So yeah, from my work at Citus, that's obviously the connection. And then I first started meeting people in the community about a year and a half later. I gave a talk at my first Postgres conference, which was PGConf EU in Lisbon. And that talk was like, why Postgres? Why this database?

Why now? Where I was sharing all of my observations about, you know, the popularity and where it was coming from and everything I'd learned in my first year and a half. Nice. So you've done talks in the past about all the ways you can contribute to the community, you call it. I think we probably roughly agree on what the community even is, but for anybody out there trying to think, what does this include? What would you say to them? Well, so I think one of the talks you're talking about was called

Fibonacci Spirals and 21 Ways to Contribute to Postgres Beyond Code. And that is a talk that I probably first gave at PGConfU, Coffey U, but also gave at Fosdome and at Cytoscon and different variations. And it was interesting to create because obviously Postgres is an open source project. It's a global project. People from all around the world contribute to it. But a friend of mine, who doesn't work on Postgres at all, was recently started working on an open source project. And he told me just the other day, he's like, you know, I thought when we first started talking

about open sourcing my project, that it was literally just about releasing the code on GitHub. I didn't realize how much more there is to an open source project. I can't mention the name because this project is not yet open sourced. But the talk that I gave covered all sorts of ground, like not just documentation or translations of error messages, which, you know, are obviously closer to the code, but also things that you can

do just with blogging and sharing your expertise or giving talks at meetups and again, sharing your learnings with the local community. Posting your slides online after you've given a talk so that other people who were not there have at least access to the slides. What else? Reporting bugs, that's important. And the different way you need to report security bugs, you know, that's important. Some people have written books and that's not for all of us. Obviously, that's a lot of work. But like Dimitri Fontaine's book, The Art of Pest Crest is so popular. Marcus Winnanth's books are so popular. So in my talk, I have screenshots of some of their books as well. Is that what you were thinking of? Yeah, I actually watched it earlier today. I rewatched it and the Cytoscon version

and a couple of the ones that I noted down as I don't always think of those are, for example, shining a light on others' work in the community. I thought that was such a good reminder that part of, like it is difficult when you're in open source to keep like telling people what you're working on. And people can get tired of always hearing about your work from yourself.

But if you spot someone else doing great work, sharing that and championing that, you can say nicer things about it than they can say about themselves. So that was a thought of really good point that I don't think of doing as much as I should. And the other one was like organizing meetups or offering a space for a meetup to be in. Like there's so many small things that are difficult, but it's not that difficult to organize a small meetup. You don't have to do a talk. You could like a meetups I've been to. Some of them are just gathered around a table or, you know, just a drink or something like that. It doesn't have to be serious. So there are lots of these small ways that are really important, but they're also quite difficult for a lot of the people that are deep on the

technical side of things to always contribute to. But having said all that, you're not just doing that. Those contributions are all very important, but there are lots of code contributions as well, lots of extremely valuable things on that side. So yeah, I think you only covered the non-code ones in that talk. So I'll link up that talk. I also want to give a shout out to Josh Berkus. When I first started working on the ways to contribute to Pest Press Beyond Code talk, I was partway through. I think my talk had been accepted by this point, or maybe I was still working on the proposal. And I thought, you know, what if somebody's already given this talk? What if I think it's my idea, but it's not really my idea.

So, you know, after just a few Google searches, I discovered that he had written a talk almost 10 years before the alternative title for it, which is the one that I always remember was 50 ways to love your project. And he had this beautiful pie chart in it where he showed that, you know, the code contribution is hugely important. It's what everybody thinks of, but it's like a slice of pie. And all the rest of it is the non-code contributions that are really important part of a healthy open source project. Because, you know, it takes all aspects. People need to be able to learn the technology. People need tutorials. And of course, people learn differently, right? Some people learn by podcasts, for example, which is why you do what you do. Yeah, absolutely. And I personally

love listening to podcasts. Like I find that I learn a lot through them, but it also helps me connect dots that I hadn't connected previously. You know, sometimes it's, you read something and it doesn't say that it hasn't completely sunk in until you hear someone describe it, but you see it in action. And having those multiple touch points really helped me personally learn. So I'm curious on the, like the motivations behind that talk as well, though, do you see a lot of people that want to contribute more to Postgres, but are struggling for ideas on how to do so? Or do you see it more as trying to sell the benefits of doing so? I think it was probably twofold. I think

one of the things that I'm always thinking about is how do I help grow the Postgres community? And the talk I gave last year at PG Coffee U and subsequently I also presented at Nordic was a beginner's guide to partitioning and sharding in Postgres. And it specifically was a beginner's guide because that's what I thought I could help the most with is helping somebody who's brand new, who's never used partitioning or never used sharding or wasn't even sure what the difference was between the two of them, that I could help them understand those concepts. Just because I think if we're going to grow, that means we need to help people who are new to the technology and new to the space learn. And so in some sense, this different ways to contribute to Postgres talk was also motivated

by this desire to just help people who were new realize that, okay, maybe they're not a C programmer. And so they're not going to be contributing to Postgres core, but there are ways they can actually contribute to the project that are just as valuable. Actually, coming soon is the pgconf.dev event happening in Vancouver, Canada. It's kind of like a rebrand or a next generation of what traditionally was called PGCon that used to happen every year in Ottawa, Canada. And on the last day of PGCon, now PGCon.dev, is an uncomfort. And so I'm toying around with the idea of proposing an uncomfort session where we talk about like,

how can we recognize or better recognize the different types of contributions beyond code? Like right now it's impossible to track them. So it's really about who you know or who your friends are and things like that. But when you merge PRs and code into GitHub or into the Postgres workspace, you get this beautiful coin when the release comes out. And engineers absolutely love it. And I feel like, well, people contributing in other ways would probably also absolutely love it. But we don't have a really good way to track

those contributions right now. So I don't know if it's a problem that'll get solved anytime in the next year or two, but I'm hoping to facilitate a conversation about it at pgconf.dev, which I'm so excited to go there. It'll be my first time at the old event and the new event. And so, yeah, coming soon. Wonderful. Well, speaking of events, by the time, so this will come out probably around the time of that unconference, but shortly afterwards, POSET will be happening, which is your Microsoft's online conference, would you call it, event? How do you describe it? I describe it as a free and virtual developer event. And it's in its third year. It's called POSET, an event for Postgres, but it used to be called CitusCon. So if you're wondering what's the difference between CitusCon and POSET, an event for Postgres, but it used to be called CitusCon. So if you're wondering,

what's the difference between CitusCon and POSET? Well, the difference is the name. We renamed it. I'm not on the organizing team this year, though. Teresa Giacomini on my team is chairing the organizing committee on a road, and she's put together a fabulous team. And it's really exciting. Every year, the event gets better. And sure enough, this year, the event is getting better. My role was chairing the talk selection team. So that was pretty exciting. There were a lot more submissions than I expected, even when we forecasted for growth. And in fact, I published a blog post that was all about the talk selection team process

and shared some of the metrics and how we went about making the decisions. And I had, you know, there were three other amazing Postgres Open Source people on the talk selection team with me. So I obviously did it as part of a team, but yeah, the speakers, the talks, it should be pretty fun. And it's four separate live streams, June 11th through 13th. Yeah. I've watched a lot of the talks in the past. I love that it's all online. You can watch it from anywhere. No travel involved. Extremely accessible globally. There's pretty much, I think wherever you live in the world, you'll be able to watch some of the talks live, which is amazing. I don't know of an event like it from that perspective.

So I'd be keen to hear a bit more about how you came up with it, what your goals are with it, why it needs to exist, that kind of thing. Let's see. It's in its third year, which means that CitusCon, an event for Postgres, was conceived kind of near the tail end of COVID when a lot of things were happening virtually, right? Makes sense. And I love in-person events. I mean, it's how you and I first met in person, right? At PG Day Paris, you make friends, you build relationships, you get that face-to-face hallway track experience at in-person events, which is pretty wonderful. But at the same time,

people have young kids, elderly parents, things they have to be doing in their community. Maybe they don't have budget to travel to another location, pay for hotels, food, planes, etc. So there is, I think, accessibility is key. These virtual talks are accessible to people, anybody with an internet connection, right? And we're hoping people come and attend the live streams because then you can like be on the live text chat with the speaker while their talk is being presented this year, which I think is kind of cool because all the talks are pre-recorded. But we also know that a lot of people are going to watch these talks online on YouTube on their own schedule, right?

At their leisure. And that's fine too, right? i think microsoft as a rule is very big into accessibility like we also put a lot of thought into the captions of these videos and making sure that postgres is is actually spelled like postgres you know we want to we want to make it easy for people to consume this nice obviously during covid we had a lot of online events, and that was wonderful. And it makes sense that most of them have gone back to in-person. But it has left us with not as many online events as would be nice. So thanks for you and your team for continuing to run that. While we're on names and spelling things correctly and all sorts of things like that, whilst we did only meet in person recently, I did come across you a long time ago via your funny videos on how to spell and pronounce

Postgres, but also the name of the conference, I think, was what you were joking about. Do you remember those videos? I do. I think if you go to my Twitter feed, I still have pinned that 60-second video monologue that was inspired by a comedian named Alexis Gay, who I think does wonderful monologues. And yeah, I got to play around with CitusCon, an event for Postgres, all the ways people misspell and misstate Citus, as well as all the many different ways people will pronounce Postgres. So people got a kick out of it. It had a ton of views. It's

probably the most popular thing I've ever published in my entire life. And so that's why it's still pinned, even though I'm a couple of years old now. Actually, maybe you can help me. I have promised Teresa to create some kind of cool monologue or trailer, something, some little short YouTube short type thing before Posette happens. And I'm trying to find the hook with the story and the Nutella. How can I possibly beat that, you know, different ways to pronounce Postgres video? And I don't, I haven't figured it out yet. So I'm looking for inspiration. If you have any ideas. Well, your videos are way funnier than anything I've ever done in my life. So I don't think I'm going to be able to help you.

But one thing we haven't talked about yet that maybe is an idea is what POSET stands for, the letters. And maybe you could have some fun with what it doesn't stand for. So it's interesting. I'm going to segue to Taylor Swift for just a second. There have been all these videos and reels lately exploring like, well, what's the process? How do these sounds get written? And this is true for other musicians as well.

They're starting to like let people in to these kind of homemade videos that show them during the creative process. I don't know how many people that are listening know how naming is done, but it's really kind of interesting. And I don't know how everybody does it. I've only done naming projects at three different companies. One was when I was at Amazon, one when I was at Sun Microsystems, and now at Microsoft. So I will not claim to be the world's expert, but part of the

deal is you have to ideate a ton of options, right? A ton of options, like 150 different possible new names. And they kind of all fall in different categories. And sometimes you think of the category and then you just rip, rip, rip, rip, rip. And you let yourself write down bad ideas. Like that's really important, is that permission to come up with a stupid idea. Because it's only among a field of stupid ideas that you can find a brilliant one, right? So long story short, as we were exploring the names, one of the things that struck me is that, huh, FOSDEM. A lot of people don't really know what FOSDEM stands for.

Like it was an acronym, but now it's kind of a word. It's kind of a name. And you know, it's free open source developer, blah, blah, blah. Like, what do the rest of the letters stand for? So then I found out there was a whole story there. It was originally Osdom without the S. And then I think Richard Stallman insisted that the F be added. Not 100% sure of the details of that story.

It wasn't there at the time. But anyway, so there was this whole category of, okay, what if we were to create a name that was inspired by an acronym? And that's exactly what FASAT is. So the inspiring acronym stands for Postgres Open Source Ecosystem Talks Training and Education. And separate from Postgres, I feel like the most important word in there is actually ecosystem. So we absolutely were trying to welcome and invite talks, not just on the Postgres core, but also on extensions, also on tooling that make the Postgres technology work. Because there's this rich set of tooling that exists

in that world. I mean, do you consider PG Mastered tooling or do you consider it guidance? Good question. I consider it a tool. Okay. Yeah. But it's a great point because one of the best things about Postgres is how extensible it is. So making sure people feel included there is a great, great idea. But we don't ever expect anybody to remember what POSET originally stood for or to ever spell it out in long form. It's not an acronym in that sense. While we're on the ecosystem and extensions, is this a good time to segue into that side of contributing to Postgres?

Are you hinting that I should bring up Citus? Is that what you're thinking? Well, it's not just Citus. I read your blog post and I knew already that there were contributions to even the likes of pgBouncer and all sorts of extensions. But yeah, Citus is, I think,

the one you're probably personally best well known for and it is obviously a huge extension. And yeah, well, maybe we could start with Citus is now fully open source right that wasn't always true that's a that's a heck of a contribution in itself do you see that like the open sourceness of contributing to Postgres as being really important so the fact that Citus is open source was really big news when we first made it fully open source a couple years ago no it was mostly open source was really big news when we first made it fully open source a couple of years ago. Now, it was mostly open source prior to that.

But taking those last few components and making them fully open podcast that I host, as well as just friends within the Postgres world and to a person, everybody says that part of why they're so committed to Postgres, part of why they chose to run their business on Postgres, part of why they were first attracted to working on this technology is because it's open source. When I did the Postgres Person of the Week interview that Andrea Scherban has been running for a couple of years now, which is pretty awesome, I think I gave him a graphic that I called like a virtuous circle or a flywheel, right? And the fact that Postgres is open source, I think, and then it's easy to get started and

easy to kick the tires, which means developers start flocking to it. And then developers, you know, get all this positive feedback from using it, they contribute to the tooling, which makes it even better to use, which makes it even easier to start with. And like, it's, yes, I think the fact that it's open source matters. You mentioned pgBouncer a second ago. And yeah, Yelta Fenomenio on our team is now one of the maintainers for PG Bouncer. And it's been really exciting to see his work and see some of the improvements to PG Bouncer that have happened in recent releases that I can see his fingerprint on that work. And so that is another aspect of our contributions to the ecosystem that got flagged in that big blog post.

But the other thing in that big blog post that I think is so interesting that I put a lot of thought into is there's a whole section on the Postgres open source contributor team at Microsoft. Yeah. And I mean, the part that a lot of the technologists will be most excited about are some of the Postgres 17 features. No, Quick Postgres 17 isn't GA yet. So I walked through some of the features that my teammates told me about

that they had worked on themselves, that they had authored or co-authored. But before that, I also went and tried to articulate why does a company like Microsoft pay these open source committers to work on Postgres open source nearly full time, right? What's the motivation? What's the strategy? And why are we going after these big architectural changes like asynchronous IO and direct IO? And so if you're curious about why, hopefully you'll link to that part of the blog post in the show notes.

Thomas Monroe even gave me a really nice quote to add to that section that was like his personal view. Because he's one of the authors of the streaming I.O. work that has come into Postgres 17 that is part of our async I.O. path that people are pursuing. It's so nice looking through that list of contributors. There's a list on the postgresql.org site of all the core team and the major contributors, contributors. And at least for the first couple of categories, they include the company that people work at. And I don't think everybody realizes, but the vast majority of people working on Postgres are employed by a company that's either involved directly with Postgres or uses Postgres, but increasingly by major cloud providers, but also a lot of the consulting companies. So there's one of the

things you did mention in that post was by employing people full time, you're able to work on these deep architectural things. People that contribute part-time, it's harder to take on the bigger tasks because they're just going to take forever. Well, even full-time, it's multi-year, multi-release. And obviously anything that you, like the streaming IO work, for example, had to have users, right? Had to have user code that was implemented to take

advantage of it. You're not just going to put some new capability on a shelf that isn't getting used and tested. And so, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty exciting. And then, of course, Melanie Plagment, who is now a committer, two new Postgres committers added, which is pretty exciting. All this work is, any work that gets done in Postgres is almost by definition multi-company and global in nature, right? So the reviewers, the authors, the committers might all be from different companies and collaborating together. So any of the work that I flagged where my teammates at Microsoft were authors, they're probably with somebody else involved from some other company. It is a global project.

And so shout out to all those folks too. It was really funny because I got a note on Mastodon from Alvaro Herrera, who was, did you see it? He said, I can't help but feel slighted on Yelta's behalf that you didn't include the libpq query cancellation.

But I have since rectified my mistake. It has been added to the blog post. Nice. And if anybody doesn't know, Alvaro works for EDB. So this is not a Microsoft person chiming in. Anyway, it is so great. And I did actually look through some of the commits. I went down a bit of a rabbit hole in research for this one. But yeah, reviewers from AWS, reviewers from Neon, reviewers from EDB. Anyway, it's a great post. I do recommend people checking it out partly just to see how things work, but also to learn. I want to make sure we do talk a bit more about your own podcast. So it's a monthly podcast. We record it live on Discord, which is kind of a whole social audio thing, because then there's a parallel live text chat that's happening on Discord at the same time that we're doing the

actual recording. And it can be a lot of fun to participate in. And we typically explore what I call the human side of Postgres. So it's all about, you know, how did you get your start? What was your first job in Postgres? What were the challenges you ran across in doing that? Or even sometimes, even earlier, how did you get your start as a developer? And then in Postgres, which is not to say we'll only ever talk about that. But the backstories that contributors have, they're just fascinating to me and to a lot of our listeners. So the podcast is called Path

to Citus Con, but we're about to rename it. The new name is going to be Talking Postgres. So we will be making that available. We'll be redirecting all the old episodes to the new name. So it should be super easy. If you've been subscribed to the RSS feed, everything should still work. If it doesn't, just reach out to me on Twitter or Mastodon or something. I'll work to get it fixed. But yeah, Talking Postgres. Yeah. And I can vouch for this. There's been about 15 episodes, I believe. And I've listened to everyone. They're about an hour long conversations with one or two people about all things Postgres. And it's really great.

I've learned a lot from it as well. I wish there were more Postgres podcasts. And actually, yeah, we chatted for ages. A lot was comparing notes on how to run a podcast. You know, I like meeting other makers and other people like in the weeds of things because you just get to chat really nerdy but basic things. So yeah, if anybody else out there is considering

starting, like doing this kind of thing, feel free to hit me up for comparing notes on that kind of thing. You've been very generous with your tips and your suggestions. I really appreciate it. Well, likewise. On that note, what contributions do you think are most needed at the moment in the community or perhaps for folks out there who want to contribute more to Postgres or want their organization to contribute more in some way any advice for them on how to get started with this? Two ideas come to mind on your first question and I think my brain started to go down those paths but one idea is something that the PGConf dev team is already working toward, which is they have a bunch of workshops planned that are intended to help

new contributors get feedback on their patches, for example. So there's an advanced patch feedback session that's invite only. So, and it's probably full by now, but there's an intro to hacking on Postgres, big, long session, you know, multi, more than just the length of a talk, right? There's another one that's called a patch review workshop, again, with special registration required. And so I think as I talked to Melanie Plankman about it, the goal, the intention is to help new contributors understand how to get it done, how to make it happen, what skills do they need? Because it's not just about the quality of their work, but it's about integrating into the

processes that exist and how to be most effective within the Postgres development processes. So I think making it possible and easier for more developers to begin contributing to this very complex database is an important thing to do. And I love the fact that there are people and committers focused on this problem, right? Focused on. Because right now, it can take a couple of years to get your patch accepted, depending on other priorities and competing priorities and things like that. So people need tips and guidance as to how to navigate that process. Nice. Yeah. As soon as you mentioned Melanie, it went off in my head that she's been doing a great job banging the drum of reviewing other people's patches, being a big bottleneck as well. I guess

it's along the same, it's also helping new people right but yeah reviewing others patches is what it feels like a bottleneck as well at the moment lots like we've got probably in the last few commit fests probably more waiting on reviewer than in other other statuses so that's yeah great thank you yeah and the second thing that came to mind is the uncomforts i'm hoping to facilitate at pgcomp.dev we're focused well, how do we recognize these non-code contributions? And they do it already. We do it already. It happens already.

But how can we recognize more of them, right? That are harder to see and harder to measure, you know, with today's systems. So I think recognition is really important, both to incent behavior, because people like getting recognized, right? Don't you? I love it. And so I think it's something that we can always do better on. Oh, and now the third thing I will just flag is I always, when I look at, because I've worked in different technology spaces, I'm always wondering, what more can we learn from the Python community, from the Django community, from the Kubernetes community. And so in fact, one of the keynotes for Puzzet, an event for Puzzpress is going to be delivered by Sarah Novotny, who spent a lot of her years in open source working on the Kubernetes project. And so

I'm really curious. I have not seen her slides. I don't know what she's going to say, but I'm really curious to see, are there things that happen in the Kubernetes community that we in Postgres could steal from, right? That could benefit our community. Wonderful. Thanks so much, Claire. And just as a reminder for people, when is Pazet and how do they tune in?

Pazet is happening June 11 through 13. There are four live streams. Two of them were in America's friendly time zones. So like 8am Pacific PDT to like 1.30pm on the Tuesday, the 11th and the Wednesday, the 12th. And the other two are in your time zone. So in Europe's friendly time zones happening on the Wednesday the 12th. And the other two are in your time zone. So we have Europe-friendly time zones happening on the Wednesday in Europe and the Thursday in Europe in the morning. So we're trying to hit as many time zones as we could. And the way to tune in is to go to aka.ms slash POSETTE.

P-O-S-E-T-T-E. And from there, you'll be able to see the live stream coming from YouTube at the top of the page. Just be sure to refresh and reload. And the other thing I would do is add it to your calendar now. If you go to the schedule page from that same aka.ms slash Pazette for the live stream you care about, you can add it to your calendar and then you don't get double booked that's always my concern i get double booked yeah and it somehow it's different like i in my brain i don't treat an online conference or an event the same way as i treat an in-person one in an in-person one i block my calendar but why don't i do the same for an online one i should do it's anyway good reminder

i'll link up all of these things in the show notes so people have got easy access. Thank you so much for joining me and us today, Claire. Thank you so much for everything you do in the community and see you soon. Thank you. Appreciate it, Michael. Ciao, ciao.