Postgres FM - Why Postgres?

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Nikolay and Michael discuss why they chose Postgres — as users, for their businesses, for their careers, as well as some doubts. Here are some links to things they mentioned:Our episode on why Postgres become popular https://postgres.fm/episodes/why-is-postgres-popularDatabase Systems: The Complete Book (by Hector Garcia-Molina, Jeff Ullman, and Jennifer Widom) http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ullman/dscb.htmlOur episode on the Postgres startup ecosystem https://postgres.fm/episodes/postgres-startup-ecosystemWill Postgres Live Forever? (talk by Bruce Momjian) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYVxWpyaGpA "Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune" from Monty Python and the Holy Grail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qT-C-0ajIThe Cathedral and the Bazaar: Musings on Linux and Open Source by an Accidental Revolutionary (book by Eric S. Raymond) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar ~~~What did you like or not like? What should we discuss next time? Let us know via a YouTube comment, on social media, or by commenting on our Google doc!~~~Postgres FM is produced by:Michael Christofides, founder of pgMustardNikolay Samokhvalov, founder of Postgres.aiWith special thanks to:Jessie Draws for the elephant artwork 

Hello and welcome to Postgres FM, a weekly show about all things PostgresQL. I am Michael, founder of PGMaster. This is Nikolai, founder of Postgres.ai. Hey Nikolai, what are we talking about this week? Hi Michael, I thought sometimes it's a good idea to reconsider decisions, you know. And if you chose some tool or some project to work with, sometimes it's good to look back at recent experience and further back in the past why you made this decision

and think, is it still the right decision? And should you keep using this product or system or project or anything or tool, or it's time to change it. Yeah, I hope you're not having second thoughts. You can doubt anything. Why not? Just I had on my list of people I expected to doubt things,

Nikolai Samokhvalov doubting Postgres was very, very low down my list. Okay. So, by the way, good pronunciation of my last name. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. And, yeah, so honestly, it's not a joke. I'm thinking, should I still use Postgres?

And for me, of course, it's a much more fundamental question rather than for like, compared to people, even if you're CTO and all your data in Postgres, it's a big question for you too. But for me, it's even a bigger question because a company called Postgres.ai and last 19 years I put all data to Postgres. And last, okay, how many years? Postgres consultants like source of income depends on it.

Not only data in Postgres but also all my activities are in Postgres and since 2007 so since 2007 I'm also a community activities having some community activities all my thoughts related to professional stuff very close to Postgres around Postgres But I must admit I have doubts. So I what I would like to for us today discussing our topic, which is why postgres what I would like to have like doing during this discussion is to I would like to look inside myself raise all the doubts I have. And honestly, if if the doubts grow, and we don't resolve them, I'm ready to switch to different, no, different database system and to

different type of business. I'm not joking. Not joking. David Bainbridge. Okay, well, I'm looking forward to this, then. I see huge potential recently, we started growing in like all aspects and it's super interesting and so many things not not yet accomplished. I have I have big ideas I think I have just which I must implement and so on. But I also have doubts. Let's talk about them and if they start to overweight these ideas and desire to build and so on, then I'm honestly open to switch. Really.

It's also probably I won't be present on this podcast anymore. I'm not joking. Really. So let's go back. I won't be present on this podcast anymore. I'm not joking. Really? So why Postgres? Let's go back. Should we start at the beginning? Like why did we each choose Postgres initially, both as like users,

but also to build tools around, build companies around, build careers around? It'd be interesting to hear why you chose it, even if it's, I know we've covered it briefly before, but... You want to start from me or from yourself?

Why not start from you, I think? Sounds good. I went to a great university in 1998. I think elite, like very good. I'm MIPT, it's in Russia. It's like hard to get into one of the best technical universities.

And applied maths and computer science was focus, but smaller focus starting third grade, you need to choose speciality. I wanted to do hardcore stuff, so I went to kernel and the personal systems and so on. But I remember it was a couple of Armenian guys who were your professors that like responsible for this direction. I went to them, they said, write us a letter, we will respond and it's great. So I wrote a letter, no response wrote a letter once again, no response. So in my head, I was thinking, damn, like, I tried to be hardcore. Now I'm like, I approached like guys who are older than me have experience in the same

institute and same same subdivision, right? Many directions, by the way, AI was already one of directions, very different than today, of course, but still, like neural networks and so on. Somehow it wasn't interested in that direction. I personally once asked, like, what's the easiest? And they said, oh, professor for like, which is doing databases is the easiest. And he's like so kind, you know, like, and definitely it's the easiest. Like, hmm, good.

I go there. This is how I chose databases, honestly. Then I started saying, you know, databases are in the heart of any information system. It's where data is stored. It should be in good shape. If it's where data is stored and it should be in good shape if it's in bad shape then like kind of not good like everything can be bad slow and so on not efficient or not bad quality like not secure or something so many things it's really in the center right i believe in this but at that time i chose just like by

accident so and then then i worked with oracle slightly more than one year with sql server maybe up to a couple of years and then somehow by accident i got into startups in 2004-5 and they said of course course, we cannot buy, we have, like, budget to build something. I joined and became CTO, like, started growing team, and I was responsible for almost all decisions technically, and they said we cannot afford the Oracle license, of course. I was a big fan of SQL Server, and I told them, okay,

then we use the most popular open source database system, which is MySQL. And you know, I probably mentioned, right, one week later, I was already almost like quitting, because like, it's like ridiculous repair table 0000 date, like I cannot work with it I have good foundation because professor was kind and easy going but it also it was great professor and the best I think in Russia at that time in terms of academia and very well known books and so on I was very lucky to to be his student and then PhD student. And his name is Sergei Kuznetsov. His name was, unfortunately, he died recently. So, yeah, he was a very great guy.

And I learned a lot from him. And, of course, I learned, I studied books like Chris Date, that's like kind of simple thing. But also Garcia Molina woman, right? Which woman right, which is the later I learned these guys are from Stanford. It was unexpected. I thought maybe if it should be from Berkeley or so but then I also like found they are like already not active but from stanford so many good stuff like relational theory calculus right these things sometimes i learned many things in russian so

sometimes i'm having difficulties finding proper english names so but in general i had a good foundation sequel at that time i already learned like it's actually from him i learned that nulls is a big problem in sql model there is a relational model and there is sql model and they are not completely the same at that time i studied also sql standard it was i remember 1992 sql 92 then 1999 then they they started doing this 2OM or X, like kind of not whole big release, but release in parts, right? So a lot of stuff learned there. Standard is hard to deal with, for sure. So I like big respect to guys who deal with it.

Peter Eisentrout and Vic Fearing right right from the closest to standard these two guys right big respect for sure it's hard so i was i was very young like 20 21 22 i was already reading the standard then Then I work with MySQL, and what a piece of something it is. Actually, honestly, we learned some principles, but you touch something and it doesn't work, or it works in the opposite direction than you compared to what you learned in Oracle. In SQL Server,

of course, there are some specifics, but in general both systems were mature and worked quite well and definitely like grown up systems. MySQL wasn't a grown up system. You need to choose at that time, right? You need to choose

if it's MySum, RepairTable, but it lacks full text search or you need to do what's the second engine? NADB? NADB energy be right but it's super slow super slow so one or two weeks i was on this and but we just hired a guy from astronomical university from the same place where alek barton off I think, is still doing some academia activities. Maybe already know,

I don't know. But at that time, so that guy said, I know this guy, Oleg Bartonov, and try Postgres. And everything went in the right place immediately. I converted super fast everything, super fast. I needed to write additional layer of caching because work i i had my own orm at that time it was before i think current popular orms became popular it was before jungle i think jungle and ruby rubin rails already existed but was not we're not super popular and we were using php So I wrote my own, and it had a lot of work with metadata. I quickly switched to Postgres

and worked with metadata in Postgres, but it became very slow. Everything is good, but working with metadata is much slower than in MySQL, so I needed to add caching for queries to pgClass and so on but this is the only concern everything else went like it was like all the pieces of the puzzle in the same like where they

should be right because posgus probably has issues like replication like we learned later and needed to use Slony and Londesty later. But it works as expected if you studied databases from books, right? From theory, switching from theory to Postgres is natural, which was not so if you

switch from theory to MySQL. This is how I end up actually loving Postgres, because it saved me. It's free because we couldn't afford license being a small startup. It's open. Maybe I didn't really care that much at that time about openness, but I liked it. Extensibility, openness, I liked it like extensibility openness I liked it immediately and most importantly for me things work as expected in terms of relational

theory like there are triggers there are views right and like null behavior and so on like these things as you expect them to be. Reliable, right?

ACID principles, strict system was already very strict to ACID principles. It probably was not super performant at that time compared to MySQL, MySUM, but you didn't lose data. Yeah. Except it's a bug, right? Bugs happen, of course. Right? David Gellar, Ph.D.: Yeah. So that was like, originally why

you chose Postgres. And I guess we've gone a little bit into why you continue to choose it in terms of you fell in love with it. But why? Yeah, why do you continue to build products and services for it? Well, this is my personal life. I've built three social networks. Well, I was in Russia then. Twelve years ago, I migrated to the US and lost my interest to social networks already. But interest to databases was constant all the time. And yes, Postgres popularity grew, demand started to grow, I think in 2014-15, and this

is exactly when I needed additional source of income, so I started helping other companies which started having bigger databases in Postgres, like Postgres databases, and started having bigger databases in Postgres, like Postgres databases and started having troubles. It was natural for me to use my knowledge and desire to work with Postgres and that interest into databases to start a consulting practice. And then, you know, this podcast was born out of these seeds, meetups in the past and desire to go online with meetup activity because i know people are everywhere like and meetups are only in one place it's good to meet in person but yeah so it was quite natural everything was natural so why postgres because it's just i have interest i have opportunity like match, and we continue working with it, right?

Yeah, perfect. I'm only hearing positives. Ha! Shall I go through mine quickly, the reasons for choosing it initially? Mm-hmm. Sure. it initially sure so i mean i think yeah i think i think some of them are quite different to yours but it's also later my my journey's later so i first came across postgres through work rather than like through academia or anything like my degree was unrelated so i ended up coming across it first while i was working at a database tools company. So I first fell in love with software and like quite, it was almost entirely graphical user interfaces to things like databases.

So our biggest divisions at the company were for SQL server tools. So that was my first experience. And I came across Postgres first as something people started requesting support yeah can you do you do the same tools we'd love to buy the same tools from you for postgres you know companies that used and loved our tools for sql server were starting to do some projects on postgres you know move not that many migrations at the time but like greenfield projects they would often choose postgres so this move not that many migrations at the time but like greenfield projects they would often choose postgres so this was about that same time that that 24 2013 2014 2015

so it's those years that i started to hear it more and more and then in late 2014 i actually moved to a startup in london um who were payments company are a payments company go cardless and their team there was exceptional engineering team still is yeah yeah and they love postgres and that really like hearing that bigger companies were starting to use it and then also knowing that the cool yc startup scene were also using postgres that really triggered something in me it's like ah this isn't just something like i already knew that it was up and coming i know it's really old at the same time but i already knew it was becoming more popular and that these engineers that were much younger and vc backed startup in the UK chose it and loved it really inspired me to like

think this could be a platform I'd want to build for this this could be going places and also it's clearly a technology that is already like sound and fundamentally sound if the all of these companies are choosing it and I'd also really kind of reacted negatively to some of the other things that had been hyped up at a similar like i really couldn't get behind the whole mongo db like the no sequel movement at the time and also do you remember big data do you remember that as like a phase just just really reacted strongly like strongly and negatively towards a lot of the people that were hyping those up because it just didn't seem based on solid foundation, like on good principles.

And it didn't make sense to me that these things were needed or like fundamentally better. And so when I saw Postgres was coming, was up and coming and it was based on good fundamentals and they prioritized, like I saw a lot of value alignment, like you. And I think like most people, correctness and reliability are more important than performance. Of course, performance matters after that, but there's no point in it being fast and wrong. Like that's, it's just that priority order seemed so much better in the postgres ecosystem but then beyond that there were loads of other benefits like as you say free

as in price that's obviously extremely attractive and i think i'm probably still underappreciated like actually free like totally free and then also the fact is open from a source code perspective of having built tools for sql server and oracle having been involved in teams having to you know research new versions or look back to why things are broken or you know all sorts of things if you don't have access to the source code i mean yeah so you don't have access many companies don't have access. Many companies don't understand that. I first felt this. I was experiencing this insight, what you're just sharing, that source code is

like a kind of deeper documentation. When I first had it in 2018, helping some company which were migrating to RDS, they were huge already. They needed logical replication to first to Vertica, then to Snowflake, doesn't matter. But they considered some tools and

one of the tools was maybe one of the popular at that time was Qlik, X-attunity. And the documentation didn't cover so many questions I had. And I just, like, I realized, I was like talking to my client, I just said, you know what? Like if they had the source available, not open source, source available, I would just answer myself because I can read code. It doesn't matter language. Like I could find this place

for how exactly they create logical slot. Spend a lot of time and effort, I realized they create logical slot spends a lot of time and efforts i realized they create logical slot using sql function not replication connection that's what that was their problem but uh for me lack of source code means lack of full like ultimate documentation basically right so ultimate and accurate and up to date source of truth it's also about transparency if you don't provide source code you always can say oh we fixed

this problem but not in all cases but you cannot bullshit if you have source available with all versions and tags and releases like anyone can see it's about transparency and transparency is why I have doubts in Postgres. Oh, interesting.

Yes. But it's not technical. Let's talk about technical first before we go. Well, I think we can intertwine them. I've got a couple of other reasons I chose it that are on the non-technical side. I think when you're building for so i uh i'd worked at places that chose postgres but i wasn't the decision maker at those you know it was an already

made decision when i worked there i never chose it explicitly until i started my own business so it was only then i mean when we chose it not just as users of course but as as a platform to build on and because i was trying to build something like long term it's very much you know uh small slow steady not vc backed hopefully for decades that kind of business i didn't want to build for a platform that there was that was like that could shift and change drastically from underneath me and also that was really at risk of a company changing their mind or changing something drastically so it's often described as platform risk and it felt really low with postgres not just because it was built on really solid foundations but also because there's no one

company that can if they you know there's no company behind it there's no one company that can, if they, you know, there's no company behind it. There's no commercial entity that is dependent on its success. Like MySQL AB, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like all of this, if you consider all of the companies that have changed their licenses in the last few years, for example, that's just one example of how things can shift from underneath you, but also like they could go completely closed source or, or in my skills cases, stop publishing test cases,

which is like one step towards like, again, I don't think we've had any awful examples where businesses really would have suffered, but they can, if there's a single company behind it. And the fact that Postgres was not just, not just had seemingly had policies in place

to prevent that happening, but also seemed to live those values. There's a real, there's lots of companies that employ contributors and there's real collaboration between those on new features and on bug fixes and it seemed truly collaborative truly a community project even though lots of those community members were almost all were being paid to work on it it was still a community a group effort between

collaborative organizations that could all benefit from it getting better and it it just didn't seem like it was as likely to have a fundamental shift as some of the other platforms out there it's interesting actually it resonates with my idea that sometimes vc backed company recently we discussed companies which are closing postgresgres-led companies, startups, right? It resonates with the idea that if you VC-backed, you have pressure, right? And you can have, because of that pressure, you can make some unpredicted moves, unpredicted for your users and customers, right?

For example, if you're a great, successful postgres startup, but not successful enough for VCs you suddenly can decide to switch license and make more money if you lose some users right? This is about Postgres but you apply the same logic for

this is about Postgres startup Postgres related startup right? But you apply the same logic to Postgres core Yeah as, right? But you apply the same logic to Postgres core. Yeah, as a platform to build on. Yeah, this is interesting. And if, for example, distributed nature of development, basically, right?

Distributed nature of development. But of course, there are some key people. And if they have gone, for example, disappeared or decided to quit or something, Postgres has more chances to survive, right? This is what Bruce Malmjohn describes in his talk, Will Postgres Live Forever? Right? Because Postgres was dead several times already and someone picked it. Well, it was dead after it was basically closed in Berkeley.

And then it resurrected in the middle of 90s as open source. Right? So, yeah. Yeah, you're right. There are a few individuals who contribute a huge, huge, huge amount. But it also feels like there are others who contribute hugely too. And obviously, if a few of them or several of them stopped, like when MySQL joined Oracle via Sun, and you had the split with MariaDB, if there was a fork like that in the Postgres world for some reason, and several of the contributors all left at once

or one or two really, really big important ones did, I can imagine it being detrimental to the speed of Postgres enhancements. But I do think there would would be there's still so much momentum and actually i don't think i mean we could talk about it but i think feature growth is it really helping with postgres but i actually don't think it's as now that now that it's competitive with oracle and sql server on a bunch of enterprise and performance features, it's not as important that we keep innovating as quickly on the feature level.

Perhaps things like PG Vector and making sure we're available for new use cases via extensions or via core could be important. But yeah, I'd be keen to go back to, you already raised, do you want to cover kind of technical reasons why others are choosing it maybe us or others or do you want to move to doubts and things like let's quickly cover technical reasons so first of all it acts it has strong foundation follows principles follows standard not fully but quite quite well much better than many others and this is like it has principles like extensibility and so on like these are technical things like and extensibility is constantly bringing new features uh pgvector relies on extensions framework, right?

And it has its own lifecycle, but maybe it will go to the core at some point. Maybe, right? As Full-Tek Search or XML did in the past, they were separate extensions, but then went to core. And this means also features are coming, coming, coming. That's great.

Or it could, there's another success case where it could be more like PostGIS, which has been incredibly successful and helpful for the growth of Postgres, in my opinion, and has stayed an extension. And I think a lot of people are choosing PostGIS, and Postgres comes along for the ride rather than the other way around. And that's really cool. And it could be the same in PG vector. Like people could be choosing PG vector and Postgres comes along for the ride in those cases.

So yeah, either case could be a huge success still. PostGIS is an interesting example. And it's kind of a whole different world, right? But imagine it was part of... Like Postgres documentation doesn't have PostGIS. Would Postgres be even more successful if PostGIS was in core and documentation had it? Or, for example, if Timescale, the company decided to go all in with Timescale DB and make it super open, eventually contributing it to core. Just imagine, with all compression and all the stuff and Postgres documentation added.

I know it's not good for their business, maybe, but imagine this world we live in. Postgres has PostGIS, it has TimescaleDB, PgVector, it has everything, right? The level of quality is unified, right? It's being tested all the time in the same manner as Postgres itself. And people don't spend time trying to understand how to bring these pieces together. And if it's managed Postgres like RDS or something, all the pieces are there already. Yeah, I can see arguments both ways. I've seen people I respect a lot arguing completely the opposite direction. So maybe we should define what Postgres is. This is Postgres when you just install it with a few extensions,

not a few, dozens of them, so-called CADRIP modules, right? And also CLI, ToolPi, SQL, and that's it, right? That's it. It also can create a user in your Ubuntu or Debian or CentOS and set things up and be installed as service. Of course, right? But that's it. There are also super popular extensions which make Postgres very different,

like PostGIS or TimescaleDB or PGVector, right? Great. It's also Postgres or no? It's also postgres or no that's also postgres right bigger postgres i think so it's like there is los angeles but if you live in i don't know long beach you still live in los angeles right it's like there are there are yeah bigger postgres that's a great example because it depends in what context you're speaking and who you're speaking to and you know how familiar they are with the area if they say where are you from but it's if you if you're a local coffee shop in near la and someone asks

where you're from you'll probably be more specific but if you're from you know if you're in thailand and somebody asks where you're from, you'll probably just say LA. Yeah, same here. It's exactly the same. We use Postgres, but if you say we use Timescale Cloud, you're already like, okay, it's also Postgres, but definitely with Timescale DB and probably without some things they don't provide, right?

So like, yeah. Interesting. So there's bigger Postgres. There are also many tools around, like you're building one and we're building something. So these tools, yeah, but a lot of options and it's like quite rich ecosystem. Great, right? Yeah. So this is also reason why Postgres, because ecosystem is could be an argument against it. Definitely when I first was looking at Postgres, I'd actually say that other ecosystems were a little bit more advanced. There were more people building external tools

for some of the other systems. So I do think that's not as obvious a one for choosing Postgres, in my opinion, but it's great that everyone that more and more popping up the the last like technical ones I had were obviously the extensibility not just in terms of pre-made extensions but the fact you could ex like as a user you can extend Postgres in various ways I think a lot of people do choose it for those reasons of course yeah starting from creation of your own data type to your own type of index and extensions and now like even more things up to storage engines and so on right yeah exactly i think people can dip their toe in with a new data type and then like

gradually get more and more excited by what they could build and then the last technical one i had on my list was and this might be more why people stay rather than why people join in the first place but backwards compatibility is so helpful like it's because of the good fundamentals and because postgres has like five year support of major versions people aren't forced to upgrade like that often and things don't tend to break when they do you know obviously we've done episodes on this and there's a lot of complexity around major version upgrades and you do have to re-release notes and things but compared to other systems that are changing compared to other platforms that people are building and building for

things like there are major breaking changes in a lot of database major version upgrades and having seen people have to deal with those and have to get stuck on really old versions it's just so much better in the postgres world so i think that might be a reason people stay or like maybe some very smart people the reason they choose it but i why i definitely wasn't aware of that when i was first coming across it right yeah yeah so on the on the doubt side of things you mentioned transparency transparency yeah for me transparency is the key factor i dislike I dislike in Postgres because the source code is open. In mailing lists, they are open as well. Sure. But if you look closer, and I know people who just use Postgres,

they don't see problems. But I know for sure, not only based on my experience, but based on many companies, not just one, not just two, many companies, people who are in the head of those companies, Postgres-related companies, big ones, big names, they feel this lack of transparency in processes. Postgres project doesn't apply this principle to itself. Processes are not transparent.

Question. Just to ask where you're going with this. Do you consider any other alternative projects more transparent and more open, like, along this axis? Honestly, I'm not a big expert here. I just see if, like, well, usually organizations which are built recently, which are quite strong and so on, have kind of democracy, right? They have elections, some rotation of power when i'm looking at alternatives if i'm thinking like mysql redis sqlite not none of those have as well like i but it doesn't mean there's no problem maybe no no i'm no no i'm just no. The question why Postgres partly asks, if not Postgres, what else?

Oh, database. Do you know what I mean? If you doubt it and then say maybe this isn't it, what would it be? What's the alternative? Yeah, good question. It can be forked Postgres

with different principles interesting yeah yeah honestly I like I I when I raised

in the beginning of this discussion I raised this I have doubts I have them for long I just wanted to look inside

myself and validate but while we discuss all these things are good I'm still staying honestly like I are good, I'm still staying honestly, like I already feel it I'm still staying with Postgres

but people must know I'm not fully satisfied with things and at some point I might say it's enough for me I don't feel it right now, I'm very far from it but lack of transparency.

Yeah, so we've got lots of reasons why we chose Postgres in the first place. Lots of positives, like still that we would choose it again today and that we do continue to choose it every day. Some areas for improvement, for sure. I don't see a great alternative. Like I think it's still exceptional

and love building for it and i'm hoping to for decades to come um it'd be cool to hear from anybody that works in or with like similar organizations with different governance structures and how those work i all i can think of is like benevolent dictator types you know linux and and sqlite and things but i'm sure there are other good communities. Like I think the Kubernetes one keeps coming up as a… Cloud native maybe. Yeah, so there are some interesting ones out there

that are run slightly differently. So it'd be great to hear from people that are heavily involved in those. Right. So, yeah, in my opinion, Postgres is definitely one of the greatest examples of open source and i i see it as a big bazaar right yeah with with one big cathedral in the center right now which now i recognize and smaller cathedrals on this bazaar, maybe. Well, cathedral is one, it's one, right?

But it's still bazaar, and no matter what, I think it has good chances to be a good bazaar, like with many voices, even if people inside cathedral in the center don't agree with those voices, right? These voices cannot be, due to to probably due to original nature license chosen in 90s and and the original nature of the project itself even if there are conflicts this bazaar will still be huge and i think it has good chances to be huge with different opinions and sometimes very contradicting. So yeah, I'm glad it's a bazaar because I think it's a good thing, like an open source. You know, I'm referring to cathedral and bazaar by the way. Yeah, yeah. I love the analogy and you've used it multiple

times in the past, but it's always been cathedral or bazaar. Yeah, but now I see bazaar with a big cathedral in the center. There is a cathedral in the middle. Maybe it's not that big, though. It is a cathedral, but maybe the bazaar is bigger. I feel sometimes this cathedral in the center tries to pretend there is no bazaar almost, or this cathedral can define all the rules. It cannot.

It cannot define all the rules. Have you seen Monty Python? There's Monty Python. I think it's, which one is it? Maybe Search for the Holy Grail? Have you seen the Monty Python films? No. No.

I think you would like them. My son loves it. He tries to convince me for years to watch everything. You have to watch it. I think you'll enjoy it. But there's one moment where the king is going up to the peasants working the land

and tells them what to do because he's their king. And they're like, I don't believe in a king. So it's quite funny. I'll link that up. Yeah. I should see it.

So, yeah. For sure it will remain to be cathedral and it's good. So, yeah, I think, thank you for help validating that I still want to use Postgres. For me, I have enough reasons to use Postgres no matter what, no matter what happened. Nice. Maybe we'll discuss again in a couple of years and see where you are there yeah well yeah I'm quite positive I will keep using it and help other people to use it in better way me too wonderful thanks so much Nikolai catch next week bye