Predictive History - The Story of "Civilization", "Secret History", "Game Theory" and more - Dante #10: Purgatory Cantos 5-14

Episode Date: August 22, 2026

Watch on YouTube: https://link-to-youtube.s.gy/dante10

Good day, everyone. And welcome back to the Dante Workshop. Today we have a very, very special guest dialing in from Connecticut, our beloved throne professor of English, David Bromwich, live with us today. Besides being the Sterling Professor of English, he has been a very well-read literary and cultural

critical. He was a Yale college grad and a PhD alum of ours. His one of his, some of his many books include Haslett the Mind of a Critic, Disowned by Memory, Wordsworth Poetry, The Intellectual Career of Edmund Burke, and most recently American Breakdown, The Trump Years. He has also been a committee member for the committee on on trust in higher education, which just published this report about a month ago. He still teaches English 125 at Yale directed studies,

a course on Moby Dick. And we're just so delighted to have you contribute to this enlightened conversation with your student, Jiang Shechin. And without further ado, I'm gonna turn the podium over to you. I should also say we're so grateful that actually thanks to Jang's introduction, we've had David Bromwich, Professor Bromwich, join Yale Center Beijing programs and workshops on Shakespeare and poetry during COVID,

which was comfort during difficult times, comfort and enlightenment equally. So I'll turn the mic over to Professor Bromwich and John. Do you want me to just start? Yeah, just feel free to start. Okay. Let me set this up in a slightly classroom way and point out that Shakespeare is an irregular, an unwieldy, a sort of untamed author in many ways. This is shown, especially in the way he was received by neoclassical French critics, who held against him that he wrote plays that didn't obey the unities,

the supposed all-important aristotelian unities of action, time, and place. The ideal play would have an action that took place in the amount of time it took you to watch the play. You can see how rare this is as a successful strategy. But Shakespeare was what went astray of it far more than most successful playwrights. And I chose Macbeth in part because this is a relatively rare instance among his works, where you do have strong unity of action, and it's welded together with character, a portrait of character that is really brought out by the nature of the action. action and the moral judgment I think we're asked to make about the play, about Macbeth's ambition,

goes with a sequence of actions that have that sort of interconnection that we look for. It is an imitation of an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude. I'll try to expand that a little or get your thinking started on it. by just reminding you of the aphorism which we have from Heraclitus, character is fate, the Greek of it is ethos is the daemon, both of those key words still with us in English in different ways. And then a much later writer, but interesting in the same way of bringing our attention to this unity of character and sequence of events. Henry James in his essay on the art of fiction asks,

what is character but the determination of incident, incident coming to a sharp emphasis in the form of character, and what is incident but the illustration of character? I'm going to concentrate on the idea of action of the idea of a deed, and Shakespeare's sense in dealing with Macbeth, most of all, but also Lady Macbeth, who is in some sense the instigator of his violent action, the murder of Duncan,

by calling attention to the strange focus, Shakespeare pretty much demands that we give to doing, the very idea of doing. Lady Macbeth says, soon after they've committed their murder, what's done is done. But she'll say much later, on the brink of or some way into her madness,

what's done cannot be undone. Now, you can hear the difference between those two asserts. And of course, those are often used idiomatically by ordinary speakers in English today. But they logically mean exactly the same thing. What's done is done, and what's done cannot be undone. No contradiction there. But they're said in a very different tenor.

The person who says what's done is done, or to use the more modern formulation, which is even more seemingly bland, It is what it is. When somebody says that to you, they mean there's no point thinking further about it. It's in the past now. No more reason to contemplate, to have regrets, whatever. But that second statement, what's done cannot be undone, points to something fatal about the nature of a deed. That it is a bearer of fate. and it is a bearer of the fate of the person who has performed the deed that does a great deal to illustrate the character of the agent himself.

Macbeth seems to be nursing the nature of the deed he will perform almost as soon as the witches plant the idea that he might become fain and then become king in his mind. He speaks it in a way that's a little elaborate and at the same time rushed as if his mind is overcome by the merging of the idea of usurpation, killing, and this prophecy, which places him already as king. He says, and these are the lines from the first act, my thought whose murder yet is but fantastical, shake so my single state. of man that function is smothered in surmise and nothing is but what is not one thing clear even though that's an incoherent statement and i mean think of what it means to say my thought whose murder yet is but fantastical it's as if murder surrounds his very thought that's a kind of conceit i think

that Jang will probably want to have something to say about in relation to Dante. The idea that one of those condemned speaking from a flame in the inferno just is what the deed bounds him as having been. But Bet's living that already in his speech, even though he hasn't yet, to his conscious mind, decided to do what the witch's prophecy might be possible. They don't say you're going to murder Duncan. They say you're going to be king.

But this concern, this verbal and psychological freight of the idea of a deed as defining the character and fate of a person is strongest when he's just on the verge of, of committing the murder at the very end of Act 1. It's a great speech, and I'll speak all of it and apologize in advance for the inadequacy. Very hard to act this part. It almost exists to be read more than acted, the part of Macbeth,

partly because he is imaginative, because he is full of fantasy, in a way that a mere warrior wouldn't normally be relied on to show. He has both aspects in him. But the fact that he is haunted, the fact that he has a certain depth does not change the fact that he's bent on the deed that the witches have told him all but told him could make his assent to kingship possible.

So here's the speech at the end of the first act. If it were done when tis done, then for well it were done quickly. If the assassination could trammel up the consequence and catch with his surcease success, that but this blow might be the be all and the end all here, but here upon this bank and shoal of time, we jumped the life to come.

But in these cases, we still have judgment here, that we but teach bloody instructions which being taught return to plague the inventor. This even-handed justice commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice to our own lips. He's here in double truss, that's Duncan. First, as I'm his kinsman and his subject, strong both against the deed,

then as his host who should against, his murderer shut the door, not bear the knife myself. Besides, this Duncan hath borne his faculties, so meek, hath been so clear in his great office that his virtues will plead like angels trumpet-tongued against the deep damnation of his taking off, and pity, like a naked newborn babe striding the blast or heaven's shereb hoarse upon the sightless couriers of the air, shall blow the horrid deed in every eye that tears shall drown.

the wind, I have no spur to prick the sides of my intent, but only vaulting ambition, which oral leaps itself and falls on the other. It's quite a remarkable speech, and I'll stop at a couple points of it, but only say now that Lady Macbeth comes in, tries to work him up to the crime again, but Macbeth in a very different vein from what we've just heard says to her flatly, we will proceed no further in this business. There he speaks like a general, giving a command that is in keeping with his normal duties. But you can see the amount of fantasy and the sense of ambition, just in the way the metaphors work in this speech.

he says that he'd leap the life to come. In fact, in the first part of that speech, if you could trammel up the consequence and catch with his surcease success, it's almost as if the echo of those two words, surcease is a fancy word. It's a euphemism for murder. But if success and surcease,

the way they almost rhyme is just the way I could take him out, how convenient it would be that but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all here right now in this place, no consequences. But then he comes to the idea of judgment in these cases. And cases is already a legal term. Our idea of casuistry, which is metaphysical and theological too, comes from thinking about cases. In these cases, we still have judgment here on earth, right? that we but teach bloody instructions which being taught return to plague the inventor.

And this even-handed justice commends the ingredients of our poison chalice to our own lips. So Macbeth, in those words, enacts justice upon himself. There could be no more direct or complete judgment of the wrong of what he's doing. His sense of the wrong is expressed only in terms of duty, but the duty is strong and binding. And he practically breaks down himself in that strong metaphor about the newborn babe pity striding the wind and confesses that he has only vaulting ambition,

which or leaps itself and falls on the other. So the fantasy is in this bank and shoal of time like crossing a river, but when you leap, you just fall. You don't get to the point you would. like to arrive at. So that's Macbeth trying to make the depth of the crime just a local event. It stops now, but here, but by this blow, might be the be-all and the end-all. I think that might be the first use of that interesting phrase in English. You can just be over with. It's just over with.

And that's what people going to commit some terrible thing, I believe often say to themselves as a sort of consolation. It's true to life in that regard. Lady Macbeth, of course, all this while, has been setting herself up as the person willing to face violation of nature, violation of duty, because of the great gift that it will bring them, the gift of power, the gift of being king and queen. And she has said, just when McGrath is about to arrive, following the message that she has read already from him, that he got this strange hint from the witches, she has said, I'm no longer part of nature. Come, you spirits that tend on

mortal thoughts, unsex me here, and fill me from the crown to the toe, top full of dire cruelty, make thick my blood, stop up the access and passage to remorse, that no compunctious visitings of nature shake my fell purpose. And that's a beautiful phrase, the compunctious visitings of nature, as if nature can't be undone. But when she says unsex me here, and in other places where she says, you know, I would beat out the brains of an indecive,

rather than quit this deed before it's done. There's a very strange suggestion that, you know, Lady Macbeth sees herself as witch-like, sees herself as, in some way, supernatural, outside nature. She can't live up to that aspiration, but it's she who, as it were, starts the engine of Macbeth's ambition to turn it into something efficient,

efficient, which he is hanging back from quite committing himself to. What's interesting about their relationship is the progression of it, the kind of exchange it undergoes as the play advances. Because already in Act 3, that's the dinner scene where Macbeth is quite haunted and is acting so much so that guests wonder what's up. They begin to be suspicious about something strange going on in this family. But already in that scene, Macbeth is comforting Lady Macbeth, no longer having to be roused by her,

as he eventually is to commit the murder. And when she tells him to put on a good face, gentle your looks, he says to her, full of scorpions is my mind, dear wife, but he's not going to tell her exactly what's up. Be innocent of the knowledge, dearest Chuck, till thou applaud the deed. One of the, I can only call it Shakespearean touches all through this play, is what a good team they are, how well suited as husband and wife. I won't say loving, that almost seems a larceny against the word love,

but they're very compatible. Let's just say they like each other a lot, and they're suited to each other, and they care about each other in a way that they're not capable of caring about anyone else. Macbeth continues the self-deception that a deed committed right here, right now, can stop right here, right now. He knows that this is a deception. He says as much when he speaks the line to know my deed toward best not know myself,

as if you could separate your personal agency from the things you do. That's the fantasy nursed by Macbeth, and I want to suggest it's also a fantasy common to all ambition. Ambition in that sense, in that hard sense, is something as if outside you that takes you over. And that makes the person no longer inwardly able to care about right and wrong,

no longer part of nature, to use the word that Lady Macbeth has used. that idea of being here where there is the be-all and the end-all the fantasy of jumping the life to come persist throughout the play and I want to point out that in one of the speeches of Shakespeare that people most like to memorize

every bit as much as Hamlets to be or not to be we're not getting a piece of you know more than ordinary human wisdom, but a typical evasion by Macbeth, when he speaks the speech I'll now remind you of, because you all know it, she should have died hereafter. There would have been a time for such a word. Notice those words here and there, trying to locate the deed in one place rather than have it stretch out to cover the whole meaning of your life. And that's when he goes to the goes on, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,

creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle, life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. signifying nothing.

And again, I'll just say, because it's bewildering and more so, the more you know the play, this has been taken as a indication of profound wisdom about life, as if Shakespeare is speaking everything he knows about good and evil, love and death through Macbeth. But it is no such thing. This is Macbeth's locating, of Lady Macbeth's death in a hereafter where she should have died.

And then his revelation that to himself now, life has become a tedium. It's just one thing and another and another and another. We're all just actors on stage. And that word shadow is an Elizabethan synonym for actor, among other things. But let's call this speech nihilistic. but the nihilism belongs to Macbeth, and it's an exposure of the cost of ambition. It is not Shakespeare's information about the nature of life.

I think I'll stop there. I had other things to say and a couple of other wonderful speeches that I would have recited. But let me just pose two possible topics for us to come back to in discussion. one topic is the witches. What do you make of them? Because they seem to know everything in advance. So is a human agent even responsible in that case?

And the second is children. Lady Macbeth says that she's given suck. So she's had a child. But the Macbeths don't have children. And there is a curious moment in a scene of Act 4 where the bad news of McDuff's whole family being slaughtered comes to him. And he's told by Malcolm, the heir to the throne, you know, don't cover your face. Just take it like a man in effect. And McDuff's answer is, very interesting answer, he has no children.

So what is this about the idea of children as something deeply related to what's not present in Macbeth and Lady Macbeth? And then the dynamic, to call it that, between nature, the nature that Lady Macbeth hopes to separate herself from, and the supernatural element in this Scottish play. So I'll stop there. Thank you, David. Professor Bromwich, that was wonderful. So in this class, we tend to be imaginative. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to paint a scene where Dante has been to the, has, is at the premiere of Macbeth.

And Shakespeare comes out at the end and gives, and everyone gives him sending ovation. and afterwards, Shakespeare and Dante have dinner alone together. And, of course, Dante only has effusive praise for Shakespeare, the language, the poetry. But during the dinner, he raises three concerns that he'll have about the play Macbeth. His first concern is, the first question he'll ask Shakespeare is, are you fundamentally pessimistic? Because Donnie, as we learn in this class, he is a fundamentally optimistic person who believes in free will, who believes in salvation, who believes that we are ultimately the masters of our own destiny. And as you point out, Shakespeare does come from the Greek tradition. And the example, of course, is the Oedipus Rex tragedy, where Oedipus, regardless of his character, regardless of,

what he does. He's bounded by fate. So that's his first concern. Is Shakespeare fundamentally a pessimistic person? Do humans have actually no agency and free will in this world? That's the first question. Second question is, would Shakespeare, does Shakespeare believe in God?

Is he a Christian, in other words? Because as you point out, Macbeth, there's conception of nature. but it's, as you point out, pretty nihilistic. And it seems the witches of all the power. Now, in this class, what we did discuss is Donne has particular hatred towards fortune tellers. He has a place in hell for them, and he thinks that they are the cause of all misery in the world. and it's because they reduce people's capacity to make choices.

Because if you think about it, if Teryseus, the fortune tellers didn't provide these fortunes, then Oedipus would not have had the tragedy that he had. He was forced to act in the way that he did because of these fortunes. So is it just the gods manipulating us? That's the second question he would have. And the third question he would ask is this, how does Shakespeare feel about women in society? Because the Greeks, there are a lot of extremely evil women in their tragedies that drive a lot of action. But if we read the Divine Comedy, and we did read the Divine Comedy, Dante is very pro-woman.

In fact, in heaven, it is Mary who's queen of heaven. It is Mary who redeems humanity, not Jesus. So these are the three concerns that Dante would have about this play, right? First, to summarize, is Shakespeare pessimistic about human nature? Second question is, does Shakespeare believe in God? The third question is, how does Shakespeare feel about woman? So, well, Lady Macbeth is a thoroughgoing female villain, and yet she is quite humanized by the end. She not only says what's done cannot be undone, but she says, you know, not what are the lines,

not all the perfume in Arabia will sweeten this my little hand. I mean, that's the fantastical imagining of the harm to nature that their deed has done is actually common to Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, but she thinks she can elude it at the time she is urging him to commit the deed. And when Macbeth is hesitant. Later, he is more determined, and the last decisive action before he goes into his duel against McDuff is to put on his armor. I mean, that's to forget even the grief that he expresses over his death. She is showing her consciousness of being part of her deed when she tries to wash that in her sleepwalking,

She's trying to wash her hands of the blood. So they both, they share that awareness and they share the repression of that awareness, the not wanting to acknowledge the thought that Shakespeare lets us see, nevertheless, is in them. Macbeth's version of, you know, not all the perfumes are rabia, will sweeten this little hand is even more famous. You know, can Neptune's, all the water in great Neptune's ocean, wash clean this hand of blood, no rather will my hand the multitudinous sees incarnadine,

making the green one red. I mean, it's an extraordinary speech. And I mean, Macbeth is rather, they're both rhetorically powerful to each other, not least, especially she for her influence on him. but they do have consciousness of what they've done, and it doesn't ever rise to the point of conscience that would stop them from doing it. So I see Lady Macbeth as a bad person who is becoming something worse than that, but she begins only as a rather conventional person

who hasn't yet had her chance. She's no great indication of Shakespeare's attitude towards women in general, You can look at the character of Cordelia in King Lear, of Desdemona, in Othello, and a good many women in the comedies, if you want an idea of just how naturalistic a feminist Shakespeare was capable of being. I'm going backwards in your three questions, but about Fortune, and that brings us to the role of the witches. I think Shakespeare there too is being naturalistic by his lights. That is to say, observing what people in society are like. And this is a Scottish society. There is a prevalent belief that witches exist and operate in the world in Scotland,

even at the time Shakespeare wrote, the witch burnings are into the 17th century. So, you know, the belief that witches operate is real. What credit does Shakespeare give to it? I think he treats it as something people believe and Macbeth most of all. But not all people believe it in the same way. He is listening to the predictions that they make in company with Banquo. And Banquo says something like, look how our partners,

wrapped. But Beth is so struck by what they're saying and is, you can use the other meaning of the word, sorry, the other spelling, it's a different word of he's wrapped up in it. He can't tear himself away from what they

have brought to mind. This murderous thought that smothers function and surmise. So Macbeth is a believer. He was apt prey for the witches. But, you know, treat the witches in that regard as something like a statistical prediction of, you know, what the likelihood is of me living another 10 years.

I get this from statistics. The doctors, you know, from reputable medical journals tell me that my genes are such that it doesn't much. matter what I do. I have a very good chance to live 10 years on. So I go on a rampage of all sorts of dangerous things because I think, you know, the doctors have predicted that that's the way it's going to be for me. I think that kind of, I'm going to call it superstition, but it's just obedience to ideas about the future, has been common in human nature forever, and Shakespeare's using it. I also just from being, from having visited Wales and certain parts of Scotland, where the mists are on a twilight time, it becomes easier to believe in things

that are a little beyond nature. About his pessimism, again, I'd only go back to what I said in response, or rather in interpreting that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow's speech. Shakespeare is acquainted with nihilism and with the Machiavellian version of nihilism in the character of Edmund, for example, in King Lear. But I think he sees just as one of the human occurrences. These people exist, therefore he is going to portray them.

Unlike Dante, as far as I know Dante, and my knowledge of it is nowhere near as good as what this class probably has by now, Shakespeare is not going to comment on the things he sees in human nature, in human nature and society. He shows you good and he shows you evil. He usually makes it possible for you to see how good could triumph over evil, but the judgments come from the characters, not from the author, and maybe that difference is also partly owing to the difference.

between dramatic form and the kind of epic poem that Dante's writing. Just a last point, it's just a point of information. Shakespeare didn't know the Greek tragedians, and he probably didn't know Aristotle, though he would have had rumors about Aristotle. So... Right. So, again, Dante and Shakespeare are having dinner,

and now that Shakespeare has responded, Donnie hears all this, and he only feels a sense of horror at these ideas that are being articulated. And he has to ask this question, does Shakespeare, do Shakespeare, do you believe in God? And if so, what is God? Well, this play has been called by many commentators, you know, Orthodox Christian, its time in the beliefs that it reflects. That is to say when you, you know, when you rend nature, when you do something that tears the fabric of nature and pulls yourself away from it, that is an offense against God and nature maybe from the Dante point of view

to weak a word for what you're doing. But, you know, again, I'm going. I'm going to I'm going to come back maybe very inadequately or unsatisfactorily with my secular view of Shakespeare, which is that he takes seriously the things that people take seriously. And belief in God is inevitable. What the theology is behind it exactly, you know, depends on the occasion of the play he's going to write at a given moment. If you look at King Lear, I think there the pressure is greatest on any belief in something beyond the human realm that could save human life. In Macbeth, I think the idea of a restoration of an order of things which God supervenes in is stronger by the end. It's strong because of the nature that Macduff feels is in him and what Mcduff's family must be to him.

I mean, we're made to feel the absence of children in Macbeth and Lady Macbeth only by the planting of Macduff as a counter character in that strange moment when he is told of the death of his whole family. So it's a terrible play. It's a frightening play. It does not give you any image, clear. image of the good, but I think it makes you able to think about why it is that someone like Macbeth doesn't survive. Okay, so I'm going to ask one more question and then we'll open it to the students. But in Divine Comedy, there are lots of prayers. Either Dante is making a prayer in vocation by himself or maybe someone else in Divine Comedy is making a prayer.

And for Donnie, that's very important because when you make a prayer to God, you are also speaking widely to the universe. So in Shakespeare, in all is like 37, 39 plays, does anyone make a prayer? That's the first question. And the second question is, if not, if the Slyiqui is just you're just talking to yourself, what exactly is the point of that? Well, there is a prayer I can think of right off, and I'll just use it as an illustration, and that is Claudius, the uncle of Hamlet, who has murdered Hamlet's father, is overheard by the audience, not by Hamlet, praying, for confessing his sin. And that's the only moment in the play where we know for sure that the ghost was right in what he said about the matter of his death. He prays for forgiveness, I suppose, and he confesses, too, that his prayers aren't going up to heaven, but sinking down to earth and then sinking himself into hell. So there's a prayer.

It's just used in the play. It's a prayer of forgiveness by a bad man, which is not granted. It's the kind of little moment you do get in the inferno, I think, but it's made a passing moment in the play. It bears on ambition, too. Ambition knows what it is, even though it's something that blocks self-knowledge. and a curious fact about that speech, when Abraham Lincoln, who knew Shakespeare pretty well,

wrote a letter to the author of a book on Shakespeare and says some interesting things about several of the plays. Macbeth was his favorite, by the way, and Lincoln knew that he, Lincoln was ambitious, confessed it in an interesting notebook entry to himself and in other places less openly. I thought ambition was dangerous, but that his ambition is probably what allowed him to become president

and to lead the campaign against slavery. It had to be somebody who had a great idea of his own abilities. Sorry. But when he was his favorite speech... The word Donnie would have for this is not ambition, but hope. All I was going to say is Lincoln says, Lincoln says that that's his favorite speech in Shakespeare. That speech by Claudius, and it's just a passing thing.

But it's a confession of just how damned he feels by what his ambition led him to do. So make of that what you will, but there's a prayer in Shakespeare. Okay, thank you. Okay, so we're going to open the floor to question. Or any questions for Professor Roberts? Yes. Is there a specific moment in Shakespeare's life that you think unlocked his imagination

and could have shaped his view of the world? No, but I tend to be skeptical of such singular moments. I know that Dante is an exception to that and that other artists are too, and some of them say so. But Shakespeare gradually became the greatest playwright in English. I don't think from his very first plays, you could say that he'd pulled away

from the very, you know, impressive crowd of competitors that he was surrounded by, including Marlowe, including Ford at a later stage and so on. So, no, I think it was his knowledge of people, his knowledge of the court at a tangent, his knowledge of some aristocrats,

his knowledge of people who had fought in battles, his knowledge of people in the theater who themselves are a diverse lot. They're not isolated, not living in what we now call a bubble. So he was worldly, but especially with regard to London and the work he did, you know, as somebody who helped to run a theater outfit. Sorry, so to expand the question, in this class, we speculate on weird things, right? So we discuss, is it possible that Don had access to psychedelics? Is it possible he had visions? Was he an average dreamer?

Did he have a near-death experience? And so is there any scholarship on Shakespeare and how he was able to achieve his visions? Well, there's lots, and there's this new movie called, what is it, Hamnet? I mean, about the, you know, the unhappy, pregnancy of his wife and how much that mattered to him and how much that mattered to her. There are lots of stories like this. I think Shakespeare is an unusually hard case for making much of his life.

That's actually one of the things that I think bewilder people about him. He doesn't seem exceptional. And there's that same quality about Mozart, but at least Mozart has one exceptional thing. He seems able to have composed great pieces at the age of six or seven. That you can't say about Shakespeare. But, you know, there's not a story of the germinal incident or the terrible near-death experience or trauma that I think lies behind, you know, all the interesting productions

that we have the highest respect for. I was saying earlier, before we started this officially, that I'm teaching a course on Melville next term. And I think you can say about Herman Melville that his years at sea were the thing that mattered to him much more than his much longer period on land. That's clear. But can you trace to one point

what made him right in Moby Dick? I'm not able to do that. Okay, great. Question back there. If Dante was directing Macbeth, in the scene where Macbeth does the speech, is this a dagger that I see before me? Do you think Dante would instruct the stage production to have a dagger appear on the stage or continue to leave it in the imagination of the audience, as is common? Ah, Dante might let you have, I mean, Dante is serious Catholic. Catholic are not against idolatry from objects.

I think he might well put the knife right there. And I think it's common but not universal to have the knife be only imagined by Macbeth. That's another interesting moment of acting as if he is led on by forces outside himself, as ambition does for you. Because he says to the dagger, thou marshless the way that I was going, which confesses that he was going. which confesses that he was going to do it anyway, but the hallucination helps him. And, you know, he embarks on the deed right after that with the words, I go and it is done.

So, you know, it's a stage prop. And it's a favorite performance piece isolated from everything else in the 19th century. But, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. I mean, that is, that's one more instance of the consistency of this portrayal that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are always

putting off onto something slightly external the impulses that drives the ambition that is in themselves. Okay, thank you for that. Yes? Yeah, so I'm interested in your perception

of the witches. So, witches we could say they're humans, but you know, We have demons in the divine comedy. So are the witches possessed by demons or what's like the, how do we define the witches? Like why are they doing what they are doing? So I'll first point out the naturalistic, that is to say, non-supernatural, almost dismissal of the witches that we get from Banquo in lines that

something like the earth has bubbles as the water has these are of them so there you know almost as if he's a professor of physics there is Banquo the the ordinary you know not over ambitious warrior alongside Macbeth just saying this is all very strange but maybe it doesn't mean much of anything. And that's a fascinating proposition, isn't it? William James, a great American philosopher, who was interested in psychic phenomena and was the head of the Society in Britain that studied that at one point.

After years and years of studying, it said he came to believe that there were ghosts, that there was another world, that it actually existed. but the disappointment from his many years of conversing with the things on the other side was they didn't have very interesting things to say. They were like gossiping about the housekeeper in the basement and ordinary, dreary, stuff like that. So similar to William James in this case, there is Banquo saying, the earth has bubbles as the water has, perhaps these are of them.

But Beth brings something of himself into the way that he is haunted. And it's a portrait of him that the nature of that haunting gives us more than anything sure about the witches. But as I say, my own, I think, true doctrine on the witches is people believed in them and believed in them. And it was right to put them there because if you believe in something strongly enough, strongly enough, you will probably experience it. You will even experience your own self-righteousness if you believe in it strongly enough. Great question. Okay, any more questions? Yes? I wonder, is Shakespeare naturalistic in his nature, or is he just adapting a naturalism view when he's writing his play?

For example, does the sonnets reflect more about what he really believed than his play stuff? The sonnets are very – they're written a good deal before – they're written around the same – a little bit – about the same time as Romeo and Juliet, a little after towards the time he's writing Hamlet. Macbeth comes a few years later, and in a way is much plainer in style than the sonnets, as sonnets. sonnets are of course an ornate form compared to what Shakespeare does with drama. I sonnets tell you some things about Shakespeare. And this this takes us back to my dodging the biographical premise, but I'll say this much. He was he was interested in the

lives, the posture, the different quality of experience that he found among aristocrats. And the aristocrats Southampton that he is dealing with in some of the sonnets made a deep impression on him. And at the same time, he was wary of how much these people had at stake about the deception and self-deception that it could put them onto. And to a great degree about their ability to manipulate others just through the status and sometimes,

stature that they held. So, I mean, the sonnets tell you something about his attitude toward aristocrats, which is careful and admiring and wary. It also tells you something about Shakespeare's, what to say, erotic intensity. He was capable of very strong feelings towards a woman, including deep, physical and other kinds of attachment, and also including suspicion, jealousy. So, you know, the sonnets are a personal statement to some extent, and yet they're written from within, you know, a genre post-petrarch

that is already setting the terms of much of what Shakespeare says. Any more questions? Yes? you view Dante's creation of a universal architecture, kind of an articulation of capital T truth, or would you view it more as a longing for moral certainty? And how would you compare? You're asking how I see Dante? Yeah, Dante the author, Dante the poet. And then how would you compare Shakespeare in that? Dante, I've just been reading the chapter on the structure of the Divine Comedy to prepare for questions I thought I might get from Zhang.

You know, Eric Auerbach's book Dante and The World. And I think Dante gives form to the world and form to moral. and, you know, what to say, any thought about nature you might have, being shaped by larger surrounding, circumscribing understandings that are religious, that are essentially religious. And what he's doing in the Divine Comedy seems completely different from the sort of thing Shakespeare is doing in his plays. I don't see any unity that you can add up from the three dozen odd plays that Shakespeare wrote. But in the case of the divine comedy, the unity is obviously

there and a single-minded vision is there. So are they just up to different things? T.S. Eliot said, you know, Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between them. There is no third. We had a question back here. Yeah, so can you expand a bit on Shakespeare's perception of fate? Sorry, did you catch a question? Yeah, I did. Expand a little on Shakespeare's conception of fate. I think he, I may be confusing his views with mine, so please allow for that.

I feel that I've learned a lot from Shakespeare and can't be sure. sure where some thoughts come from. But I think he believed that there is a moral order in the world. This comes out in King Lear, which is the most despairing of his plays in some ways. And yet what you see in it is that evil is not one undifferentiated thing. There are people who are made worse by the other people around them or by incidents that happen in their lives. And the, what to say, assurance or clarity that Shakespeare seems to have from outside this all,

is that I'm going to use a very kind of slang expression for it, what goes around comes around, that there's, is order in that sense, that the people who do wrong in some sense know exactly what they are doing, and that others know, and that the fact that this can be known and shown, gives order to the world in itself. So let me put it a simpler way. He believes in the redemptive, sorry, that's too strong. He believes in the strength. He believes in the strength, power of truth and that truth comes out because to all human actions there are human witnesses and people want to know they want to know truly and and people are interested in the good and prone to despair when they find nothing but the absence of the good uh over here it's kind of combining um professor john's question about shakespeare's

view on women is something that's also very perplexing to me about Shakespeare, that half of his female characters are either bad like witches or Lady Macbeth. And then on the other side you find Portia in the Merchant of Venice, the very wise lawyer, and then also Othidia, who's Ophelia, who drowned herself in despair, who's loving and all that. And then there's Taming of the Shrew where with Katrina, I think, Kat, And I can't reconcile. Yeah. How are we supposed to look at the timing of the shoe?

It's like the biggest issue in my life. I was like, I can't accept. Really? Oh, yeah. Don't let it be. It's not such a great play. It's not, it's not, it's not full of wisdom. It's done to a theme.

You know, details of it show Shakespeare's greatness. But I don't think, I don't think the plot or the characters, make you think in the way that his truly greatest plays do. But you're mentioning all these women. What about Rosalind as you like it? Yeah, yeah. She's completely commanding. What about Cleopatra?

And Anthony Cleopatra, she's the most interesting character in the play. And I think you could say not only does Anthony die in worship of her, but Shakespeare kind of worships her too. So, I mean, there's great variety in his portrayals of women. And you're right. there you know there there there are those bad ones but they're they're they're part of the story um okay so we're right out of time okay so um um it's set o'clock and it's very late where professor bromwich is so um professor bramwich before we conclude do you have any questions for us as

as a group maybe a question for the students um or i would like to know and i say this as someone just, let's say, barely conversant with Dante, and having been reading it more than I have done lately in the last few days just to prepare for this encounter with you. So let me ask you, what kind of satisfaction do you have from reading Dante that seems quite special and absent, for example, example in a less overtly religious writer like Shakespeare. Wow. Okay. So guys, that's a question for you guys. What is unique about Dante?

Anyone? Okay. Back there? Oh yeah. I think Dante's works is really making me feel impressive because before the Dante's, I just feel confused about money, about power, about AI, about technology, and all of these things I think that's come from human mind. After Dante's, I know that Olive Singh may be just the same, this kind of original thing. And even though you can say that AI is kind of kind of technology, but it doesn't mean that it really do not let people to be controlled, right? So even the money, which we think is quite needed, but it also, we have to admit that money surely can let people to be like slave, you know, to be enslaved people with mine.

So maybe Dante has really made people recall about what we've been through about history. What is history and keep telling us about it? about a truth thank you um yes i just find it quite reassuring i don't think shakespeare would ever let any of his kings or queens end up in purgatory languishing in the sweet-scented valley and it's a nice thought that dante allows even people who have great power a little bit of leeway as long as they have a good heart but i never read it in shakespeare okay uh yes i think i i i think maybe it provides a moral framework to work off of, especially if you're religious in the first case. And also, whether you agree with, for example, how he puts some people in hell and some people

in purgatory and some people in paradise that maybe you don't agree with, it's still, I think, a good more of very reassuring moral framework. And you can really start working off of that to get your own moral framework. And it's just really reassuring to, you know, feel also, I guess you said that Shakespeare also has a similar thought of fate is that bad people that do bad things have a bad ending and good people that do good things have a good ending and I think that's a reassuring moral framework to have even if you're not religious thank you uh yes I feel like the difference is that Dante is more certain in his judgments like he is trying to like he his works have a lot of are very certain and he gives people as the calm was saying this reassuring moral certainty but as you said I feel like Shakespeare he more or less

just observes people and then tries to show them for like how humans act so in that way he is giving his readers less certainty yes so there's less certainty for sure yeah I have read shake for AP language and AP literature and memorize most of the quotes that you mentioned as a high school and I loved it But after reading Dante, I feel like he's the ultimate synthesis of a lot of the theology that I've encountered because I also went to Bible school and every day we have to you know Reckercise out paradoxes and stuff and I feel like Dante is one of those that kind of answers a lot of my questions that Shakespeare may not I feel Shakespeare is like this is the world that me presented on the stage for you to see what life is.

But Dante is like, well, this is Earth, but there's more beyond Earth. There's heaven and hell and like, you know, all these things that you need to be aware of and why there should be retribution for the wrongs. So I feel like, yeah, Shakespeare is more like a matter of fact of what it is, and Dante is more like this is the interpretation or the, you know, outside of the cave vision. Okay, any more? Any more? Yes? I actually think you need both because in reading, of course, to me, yeah, what everybody, whatever has been saying is true.

But what I've been here, I'm not a Shakespeare scholar. I haven't studied Shakespeare in detail before, but I think that observational, naturalistic approach that Shakespeare has actually might complement whatever that we've been learning so far in the Dantean framework. Because if you're able to put yourself in the shoes of another person and evaluate this moral framework, you might be able to find answers that are more pertinent to like modernity, what we're facing now. Thank you. How about you, Carol?

Well, I would just say that this conversation across time and space and generations and years have been enormously enlightening. In this workshop, we've been talking about the channeling of the author's mind and world and architecture, implanting it into ourselves as we become a reader and a deep reader. And, you know, at our age, it's not something that we do that often, usually in the mundane. mundane vicissitudes of life.

So I think, and you also see that in the audience, we have people from different walks of life, different places and all of that. And it's just been enormously enriching, you know, not dissimilar from what would be like on the Yale campus in a seminar or class with you. And so, I mean, actually, I want to follow up with an invitation for you to come over in person perhaps next summer and bring

us through some deep readings as well. I think we would really welcome that. I would love to and I hope it's possible. If I can only make, but this will be my one comment on Shakespeare and Dante together, that if think about ambition, think about ambition as a, Not ambition as a necessary desire to perform something, but ambition as a vice, as a vice that takes someone over. Shakespeare gives you a story, a whole story, and the story is deepened by the way characters rub up against each other, the friction of characters.

That's a difference between drama and an epic poem that Dante can give you ambition and there'll be background incidents very shorthand about why these characters are guilty of it and what their punishment is in hell. But they're just very different ways of coming at it. And the rewards are accordingly, I think, different and both very great.

Great news. The federal EV rebate is back. Eligible customers get up to $5,000 with the federal EVAP rebate on select 2027 Volt and 26 Equinox EV models. Visit your local Chevrolet dealer today for more deals. And we definitely hope to see you in Beijing. And maybe we can have a seminar on Shakespeare and Dante together.

And we can have a conversation between the polls of the whole world, right? That sounds like a greatly tempting offer. Thank you for the whole class and the engagement that I just saw. And, you know, I was glad to stay up late for this. Thank you so very much. Okay, well, that was Professor Bromwich, and again, he was my mentor at Yale. I took three seminars with him, and as you can see, we are very, very different. But a lot of it is because when I was at Yale, I tried very hard to emulate him.

I learned a lot about teaching from him. He was basically my... No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. That's a trap. That's a trap question. No, but it shows you what the learning process is. You first want to emulate, and then once you emulate,

you can then become your own person. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to do in this class. So it seems as though I'm trying to force ideas on your throat, but it's really just to help you provide a framework for you to understand Dante so that you can develop your own interpretation, okay? So, but as you can see, Even though he was my mentor at Yale, and we're still very good friends, he and I see the world very differently.

And I think that's a very positive thing. Okay. So any questions or comments or concerns from last class that you want to address before we continue proletory? Anyone? Yes? Yeah. So yesterday we concluded hell, right? Was it a day before?

No, I think a day before. but I thought like because we discussed, you know, or said that this is Virgil's conception of and not really Dante's, then what would Dante's conception look like? And how far would he then agree with Virgil's conception? Yeah, that's a really great question. And it's something that I thought a lot about yesterday as well. Because we went a bit extreme yesterday. And maybe we said a lot of things that were actually not appropriate.

For example, we speculate as to if Virgil was in fact Lucifer, if in fact he was master of hell and why that's the case. We also said, well, maybe what happened was that Virgil was the one who was being tortured by Lucifer and he made a deal with Beatrice and then he got out of it, okay? that's a bit extreme and it's great to imagine but it's also important to reflect and see how true our imaginings are and in that instance where beatrice makes a deal with Virgil that would never happen in Dante's conception of the universe why not do you guys know why not and it's really important yes because then it doesn't really make sense because like your punishment would change and so it breaks the whole thing about inferno where you're supposed to be punished for a certain act yes and so like why would you move and that's right that's right uh yes and it's almost like beatrice has the right to kind of do packs almost like she's gone yeah yeah but but this is really

important okay in dante's world god is not transactional maybe in our world maybe in the catholic church but god himself is not transactional he would never make a deal That's what the devil does, okay? All right? So you are judged for what you do and what you believe, not because you have an offer you can make to God. Okay, so that's, so, so it's really important we clarify this. Beatrice would not have the power to make a deal with Virgil,

and quite honestly, it wouldn't have, it would have happened, okay? So this then leads the question like, what? leads the question like what then is going on and um i think what dante wants to say is that everything in the universe is a co-creation process okay it's very important because um i think in shakespeare's conception what would happen is like god creates the universe he's like a get master and then we just live in it whereas for dante no it's we all participate in the co-quition process. So hell, there are some aspects of God in it, but there are also aspects of imagination in it. And poets, because they have the most vibrant imagination, they can have the

most impact in the co-creation process. So it's not a simple saying, like, who created hell? Was it Virgil? Was it God? I would say that, first of all, it's a co-quation process. But what's much more challenging to understand is that it's an evolving process. Right? So hell itself evolves where Jesus can come and take out people from limbo, and then there would be like a sundering of hell, so it changes the physical landscape. Right. And then Virgil can walk around it and interact with people and change the dynamic of hell. Right. So that's something that's really important for us to appreciate about Dante. Maybe for Shakespeare, things are much more static, but for Dante, things are much more dynamic.

It's a co-quation process that is constantly evolving. So with each reading of inferno, inferno itself changes, if that makes sense. Okay? When you read inferno, the way you perceive infernal changes, and your perception of inferno changes to inferno itself. Yes? I remember yesterday when we read about when someone does a really bad sin, their soul is immediately taken down.

That's right. I just want to work out a bit of a problem I have where in Macbeth, the fact that towards the end of the play, Lady Macbeth and Mabeth go kind of crazy and there's like a flicker of conscience in them, how do I reconcile that? Because their soul would have already been taken in Dante's conception. So is that Shakespeare saying that even if your soul is taken, taken, your body could emulate conscience in a way, even though you're irredeemable.

Okay. That's a really interesting question. And this is how I would reconcile this, okay? I would say that what's really important to understand is that your soul exists in even dimensions. So your soul exists in hell, procuratory in heaven at the same time. And depending on your action, your soul emphasizes different parts differently. Okay. So it's not as clear as, okay, you do one bad thing.

And in an instant, your soul is transport to hell and a demon comes in and you're just a demon. I think it's much more complicated. I think like now there's a demon aspect to you. Okay, that doesn't make sense. Yes? Yeah, just like the guy who died next to Jesus because he deserves to be crucified to show that he's probably really bad. But right before, like, seconds before he died, he said to Jesus, I repent. And then Jesus was like, okay, heaven welcomes you.

So then there is this aspect of redemption to the end of a very evil person's life. Otherwise, all these last ending repentance, right, asking the priest to come to your house and forgive you, what has happened to Oscar Wilde, actually, right? He has lived in the life of Dorian Gray till the last end, right? Like literally the day before he died. And he converted to Catholicism of a sudden, which he was the most end. anti-Christ person right in his age but you know so then we can safely assume that Oscar Wilde somewhere in purgatory if we pray for him maybe he would speed up to

heaven right like so there is this yeah so it's really interesting because because what Dona is referring to is the unity of the universe of the cosmos right so not only are you do exist among like amongst different dimensions but you're also connected to everyone else okay if that makes sense right does that answer your question I mean, but it was still Virgil who kind of started off hell when he wrote the Inniad. Or was it was hell like because in the Roman or Greek, like religious views there isn't really a conception of hell. So before Virgil, there wasn't hell basically.

Okay. So first of all, there was conception. It was called the underworld. Right. Right, right? So if you read the Indianiad, Innius journeys to the underworld, and he meets the shades, right? Ditto is there, they're all shades.

So Dane is drawing from that. That in the underworld, you're all just shades. That's point one. Point two is that if the fundamental law of the universe is free will, that means these places are constantly changing over time. So maybe before Christianity, this was a pagan hell, pagan underworld, with the rise of Christianity,

then we added Christian elements to it for a collective imagination. So the nature of hell changes over time as a consciousness of humanity changes over time. Does that make sense? Because I thought of this question probably as well because you said in an interview, I think one said you yourself don't believe in hell, really?

Right? Yeah, what I believe is that we exist in infinite dimensions. And you can describe some of these dimensions as hell-lish right there are just low dimensions uh where your lowest lowest emotions are based or uh are stored right so um what i mean by that is when people refer to hell they mean eternal damnation right like when you go to hell you're there forever you can't escape hell and i think what dante is saying is like no um there's no such thing as eternal damnation you can't choose eternal damnation, but it's your choice. So if you make the effort, you can always

leave hell. And there's something that we will learn in procuratory, okay? Because what Virgil is saying is that you can never, you can never leave hell. You are not a Christian, and so you are, you must be in limbo, okay? So there's an absolute sense to Virgil, whereas for Dante, there's nothing absolute in the world, okay? Everything is evolving, everything is changing, it's dynamic, depending on how you feel yes yeah everything's organic yes right so uh the difference between heaven and hell is hell is mechanical whereas heaven it's organic okay okay does that make sense to you or maybe well one thing also that springs to my mind is like how well people who only read for example the innier only know that you don't have a choice to get out of

of hell so if you die without ever reading the divine comedy then it's kind of difficult to get out of hell for you that's right and that's why and that's why dunay had to read divine comedy to give hope to the world and the system we'll discuss actually as we go as we go on in proletary because again Virgil is absolute here right yes I think it's also uh where you would put yourself it's not like god created hell and then like he just chooses is like we said also yesterday that the difference between in inferno and puritory were was the attitude growth mindset and optimistic and so like it would change like if your attitude would change then your place would change and you would like transcend in like these dimensions that's right that's right and

that's why for Dante the hope of the world is poetry right because okay you bring a new emperor and he conquests the world and he establishes peace for 20 years where you're back the same situation after he dies right so what you need to do is expand the human consciousness for poetry. And that's why, you know, he feels he needs to respond to Virgil. Okay. He's not trying to cancel Virgil, but he's trying to respond to Virgil and add to Virgil to give people hope.

Okay? Does that make sense? All right. So any more questions? Yes. Yeah, maybe to build off that. I'm reading Bart Ehrman's journeys through heaven and hell. Yes.

And essentially what they do is that he talks about every single. story that's ever written, it's like Dante's. Like, hey, I went downhill and I walked around and stuff like this. And they're all, it's almost like how I read the Inferno like back in high school, where it's like, ooh, there's lots of punishments and stuff like this.

And they were all, all these stories were created because they're like looking for a way to control in the real life. The elites are like, enjoy your poverty because you're going to have eternal blessings. And if you get out of line, if you do any revolts, then these are the bad things that are going to happen. Dante is revolutionary because he was able to take Aquinas and Augustine and actually make a philosophy behind all of this and tie it up with the theology so that we can have these amazing conversations that we're having.

Exactly. That's exactly right. Yes? So as we move from Inferno to purgatory and heaven, it seems there's this linear path to things get better. There's more hope. But what confused me a bit is that purgatory still seems fairly arduous, but before we spoke about Limbo, which is technically still in hell, and it seems easier. Yes. Right. So this is a paradox, right? Limbo is a very pleasant retirement community, okay? but purgatory is arduous

well the difference is in emotions of people right in limbo they're sighing all the time because they've given up hope they feel hopeless whereas in proletory even though it's arduous they are saying they're excited they're curious

does that make sense so it's not about the actual place It's about how you feel while you're there. Okay? Yes. With my husband, like, I just want to thumping, like lay flat and enjoy my life. And he's like, no, you should work.

It's kind of the same as a retirement community versus working arduously to climb a mountain because my husband is totally into hiking. He's having the purpose of men is to, you know, achieve something to an end where I just want to live in retirement. And he's like, then you are less of a human if you live in retirement community. I'm like, well, thank you very much. to say I have no pursuit in life but I think it's the same idea that's what men ought to be

Yes I don't know if this is too literal way of looking at it So you've got this journey right Through purgatory and if you can clean yourself All the sins you'll finally get to heaven Do we have any idea I don't know if we'll see it later

of how successful people are In actually making it all the way Everyone is successful Like once you end up to perpetuity, you will succeed. Right? Because you've made the choice to succeed. Okay? Yes? So, so before you mentioned,

there's some people done bad deeds that too bad they're in annihilation. They're not in hell. Does that mean these people don't have a chance to redeem themselves? No, no, they choose not to redeem themselves. They're happy in hell.

No, you mentioned they're in annihilation. Nilellation Well I mean, yes, they're an annihilation Because they chose not to live So after Oh, so after their choice They're forever

Yeah, because Like, they just chose to Do nothing in life They just chose to Sleep food life, right? How's that different from like animals or plants? So does that That choice

is instant like yeah they don't exist it's your choice not to exist you have that choice okay okay yes I was trying to

maybe foolishly correlate like ethics with the inferno and I was thinking like we don't hear it maybe we do and maybe I missed it

but we don't explicitly hear anybody say like this is a a punishment for rapists, probably lost somewhat. But modern ethics would say, like, what's the three worst things you can do is like rape, murder, but then slavery. And there was a lot of people today that would say, like, slavery is worse than murder because slavery is like, slaves would happily kill themselves and stuff like this. And it makes, so I did some research on this. And Augustine would say

that it's a, it's a byproduct of the fall, is that when sin entered the world, then people learned to be less kind to each other and there were hierarchies, involved and then slaves were involved because even in Dante's time slavery is less and we're moving into feudalism but it's not gone and it's just a economic reality yeah you've been a great point about slaves in the divine comedy there are no slaves okay and there's a very good reason why because in this world you choose to be a slave because you rather forfeit your life uh sorry you rather for for for your freedom than your life you give it your free will in order to protect your life.

And if you think about it logically, for Dante, you can't do that because free will is God's gift to you. And you just keep giving up for like nothing, really. Okay. So, so slaves don't matter. Like if you choose to be a slave, it's like I choose not to live anymore. Okay? You're basically a zombie. Yes?

But what if you didn't choose to be a slave? You were forced to be a slave? No. That's what about Dante? say you've always made a choice. You've always made a choice. Even if you are born a slave, you can choose to run away. If you're born a slave, you can choose to rebel.

I know it sounds a bit extreme, but that's how Donnie sees the world. Yes? Yes, back there? I mean, I hate to just beat a dead horse, but like, what if rebelling would just mean instant death? And you know that for certain. So that's your free will. Would you go to hell or limbo or where? Yes.

It's called civil disobedience, right? I bet there were, I forgot who, one of the great philosophers where he was put to jail if he did not agree to one of the government. Socrates. Yeah, I think so. Socrates. Yeah, and then so he was stoned to death and so.

Right, so, I mean, if you think death is worse than that can happen to you, you don't have any faith, you understand? I do actually agree with you. I would just, right, right, right. that's what Donnie would say, right? To have faith is to believe that God gave us free choice, God wants us to live the best life possible, and if we cannot live the best life possible,

then our souls are immortal, and we'll come back at a little point, okay? But what matters is to protect the purity of your soul, and that means to protect your free will. Okay, if you rather, like, surrender your free will, just so that you can be, you live, lift, than, you know, Yes? It's kind of that the Dragon Bowl Festival, which is celebrated, like Cheyenne rather die and throw himself into the river.

So there's another act of civil disobedience. We still celebrate a lot of these saints, heroes, whoever we call them, right, who die, chooses to die. Exactly. Yes. But then are we saying it's inherently simple to stay as a slave because you'll have no free will? But what if you're a slave and you're treated fairly well and you're somewhat content with how you are? Is that simple? Yeah, I mean, what this is, again, is this a lack of faith, right?

It's a lack of understanding of who you are. You are here to live the best life possible. You're here to be an inspiration to others. You're here to co-create the universe. You're not here to, like, I don't know, like, just get by, yes? I suppose where then I go with this is then, surely through Dante's lens, should we all just quit our jobs? Because basically in modern society, right, if we're working,

that free will is also taken. No, that's not what Donnie would say. Donnie would say trust your intuition. If your intuition is, I should just quit my job and do something else, sure. Right? But it depends on your situation. It depends on your intuition. There can be no absolute rule, right?

There can be no general principles. It depends on your own individual understanding of the situation, and your own intuition. Yeah, that's what I mean. So if the slave is a slave, but their intuition says it's fine, I'm looked after, then it's fine. Yeah, if you think you're being a slave, then you should quit your job. Yes? Yes, yes.

Yeah, I was wondering if you can just maybe give us some diagram about the dentist, because I think dentists make a diagram, which is we can put every people into the diagram. for example like some hero in china or some hero in the like hamlet right so i don't know if hamlet is on the one hand and just try to revenge right but he also tried to make justice for his father so what do you think about hamlet for example do you think he would be in the dentist limbo world in the yeah in the jeopardize uh in the paradise well i mean i think that hamlet would be in paradise um because first of all hamlet is a poet and second of all he chose to live a righteous life right um um i'm sorry he wouldn't be in heaven because he did kill um claudius right uh so he'd be in

purgatory but i mean he wouldn't be there for long okay he would have to repent uh when we We didn't miss him of a sin. But, I mean, like, I don't want to go to Hamlet because it's a very complicated situation. But if you actually understand the plot of Hamlet, it was not vengeance. It was not murder. It was justice. The reason why is that first, Hamlet conducted an investigation to confirm the guilt of Claudius. And then there was a trial.

If you remember the plot of Hamlet, there's a trial. an open trial where Evan could see the guilt of Claudius. Okay. And so for Hamlet, he was ordered to avenge his father and he delayed the process because he wanted to turn the act of vengeance

into an act of justice. Okay? And again, I don't want to get too much into Hamlet. It's a better complicated play. Okay. Yes? This would be in the first circle of heaven

because they are just content with their life and they abandoned free will. For me, this just makes sense to put them here. Not in heaven. They're not in heaven. But you know, like, we saw, like, the first circle of heaven, it was, like, people who just gave up free will. So it was, like, nuns who, like, married some guy

and just, like, accepted their, like. Right. So that's the moon, which is about the moon. Picarda didn't give up her free will. She made a vow to God. Okay. And then she was violently forced out of the vow by her brother. You're right.

Okay. So that's not slavery. Yes? Like, is this sort of philosophy that you'd better give up your life than your free will? Why Cato is in purgatory instead of in hell? Because, like, I remember you said that he killed himself as to, like, not be one of Caesar's followers. You're right. And that's why he's in proletary. Right.

Okay. Was that a question? Okay. Yeah. That's right. Yes. Exactly. Okay.

Yes? Obviously, I'm not an expert on slaves or history. But from, like, the limited knowledge that I know, slaves, oftentimes slave owners would really terrorize their slaves. Like, every single week, there would be public bashings to really, instill fear into the slaves to ensure that they don't run away. So the slaves in turn, they like learned, okay, I can't run away, but they still had acts of rebellion. For example, a lot of times you would have slaves, you know, poisoning their masters drinks, you would have them spitting in their

food, you would have them like just doing these rebellious acts. So in this case, they are still rebelling, but it's just like the constraints of society. I don't know where you get history because it's completely wrong. That's not how slaves are. I don't know where we're getting this information. Like slaves like poison their masters and spit in their food. Where are you getting this information from?

Okay. So let's think, think about how slavery happens, okay? In ancient times, we had slaves because I would, my army would go conquer your city and then I give you a choice. You either die or you become slaves, right? And it's your choice. And so when you become a slave, it means that you are now my property.

You forfeit your humanity. You forfeit your free will. You are now my property. Because it's your free will to make this choice, you no longer can resist. Do you understand? That's where slavery comes from. So slavery is people who choose to become slaves rather than to die. Yes?

But I'm not I'm not saying I disagree But like the question here is You are essentially if you go to help Like you're punishing people For their own individuality and their own choice But I feel like you're kind of disregarding The influence of society on them

Like the like Shouldn't you be criticizing society for having slaves And limiting their freedom And not allowing them to exercise their free will rather than criticizing the slaves for not having faith enough to criticize their free will? Yes. I forgot who said it. But men are born free, but everywhere he goes, he's in chains.

Virgil, will take, yeah. And so in your case of slavery, I think you refer to North American, black, African Americans, right? So they are born into slavery and there is no, you know, choice, you know, because they are beaten like Uncle Tom, right? But Dante is saying that it's every one of us who are born into this world. We are born women who are inferior by society, judge usually, but compared to men. They are black people who are born with black skin. There are people who are born into slavery. There are all kinds of people who are born into, you know, DNA defecis it, where you are, you know, shorter or you live shorter.

You get cancer, you know. So all of us are born. but you live in chains. So you can always make your, you know, choice to live a better life, like Mother Moses who got away, where we heard a lot of underground railroad, where a lot of these people try to run away, you know, and yeah.

Yeah, back there. I just want to say two things. Number one, it was Rousseau, not Voltaire, who said that. Yes, that's correct. Yeah, a contract, yes. And number two, just in reference to your point about the slaves spitting in the food and poisoning the master's drink. Spitting in the food is one thing.

Poisoning the master's drink would be a true act of rebellion trying to reclaim your free will, but it would just be very difficult for a slave to acquire poison without money. And these things are you exercising your free will, but you are not reclaiming your full free will. You have to break free 100%. Okay. So you guys are working on the assumption

that slaves aren't happy. Okay? You're thinking to yourself, that slaves really want freedom and it's just like they're being beaten every day so they can't have this freedom that's not how it works okay if you read these um iron curtain dissidents like vackal havel an actor showing this then they say the same thing about life under totalitarian regimes which is it's all just a facade it's all just theater and we're all just actors on this stage and what What is shocking to them is everyone chooses to participate in this facade.

They just say, it's all just a lie. Right? It's like, and the moment people are like, you know what, screw this system, the system collapses, which is exactly what happened to the Berlin Wall in the Soviet Union, right? Just one day people were like, I no longer want to participate in this facade and then the system collapses, okay? So we're working an assumption that these slaves are being controlled by these overlords, evil overlords. But the reality is that slaves believe I should be a slave.

I want to be a slave. I find meaning in being a slave. And for Dante, that is just outrageous. Yes? But I mean like how could you assume that the slaves are happy about themselves in the first hand? Because I feel like generally is, like at least easier for us to understand that they are not happy because of all those violence that is slaveholders kind of like cast onto them and also like at the same time if they are

truly happy isn't it in some ways reclaiming their own free will if they are happy like that's my two questions i'm just kind of confused with okay so happy is a very strong word they're just complacent okay uh yes so i opened this can of worms and i didn't even explain what i what I learned at the end of it. Bringing ethics into Dante is incorrect. Racism is unethical. There's no racist in hell. And so Dante, the question isn't, is slavery unjust or unethical?

It's, is the social order properly ordained toward God? And so slavers, the people that own slaves, can end up in hell for any number of things. But slavery is just a byproduct of the fall. And so you're not going to end up in hell for the fall. you're going to end up hell for violence or any number of things there are guests in your house so if you kill your slave then you would be in the bottom level of hell um that sucks in this modern world where we equate slavery as one of the worst sins it just doesn't yeah so remember in in divine comedy there are no slavers there are no slaves anywhere okay it's not really really an issue

at at this point all right okay so let's uh continue um uh to divine comedy okay so this is what kennel five now Yep. All right. Pergatory, Conto 5. I had already left those shades behind and followed in the footsteps of my guide when there beneath me pointing at me. One shade shouted, see the second climber climb. The sun seems not to shine on his left side, and when he walks, he walks like one alive.

When I heard these words, I turned my eyes and saw the shades astonished as they stared at me, at me and at the broken light. Why have you let your mind get so entwined, my master said? that you have slowed your walk. Why should you care about what's whispered here? Come, follow me, and let these people talk. Den like a sturdy tower that does not shake. It's summit through though the winds may blast.

Always the man in whom thrusts ahead of thought allows the goal he's said to move far off. The force of one thought saps the other's force. Could my reply be other than I come and somewhat colored by the hue that makes one sometimes merit grace? I spoke those words. Okay. Okay, so let's figure out what's happening here visually, okay? So Dante and Virgil are walking, and they're trying to get to the gate of purgatory

so they can climb the mountain of purgatory because Beatrice is waiting for Dante, right? And as they're walking, they get spotted by lots of shades. And why are these shades interested in Dante? Why? Because he has a shadow. Yeah, right? because he has a shadow because he's different from they are so they gog and they want to talk to him

right and what does donnie do in response listens he doesn't he doesn't listen he slows his walk to kind of consider what they're doing and wonder why is he slowing his walk because he's second guessing or not second guessing but why is he slowing his walk Virgil's like speeding ahead and Virgil is like you know walking really slowly walking really ginger But why is he doing that? Anyone? So we've seen this quite a few times already, right? Where the soul's cock at him and says, hey, shadow.

And then Dante just gingerly slows down. Why would he do that? Yes? He wonders if he can help them in some way or if they can give him information about the assent. You're such a generous and optimistic person. No, yes. Like, you're like the celebrity of, purgatory. Exactly. You understand. Okay. It's like a movie star walks into a shopping mall and gets

mob. Does he not know he's going to get mob? Right? He's going to walk into the shopping mall to get mobbed, right? And like so Virgil's pissed off at Dante. Like, because it's happened quite a few times now, right? Where he's like slowing down just so like the shades can surround him and said, hey, can I have your autograph? Right? And so, um, so first of all why is Dante famous why is he famous no no no no why why is he famous like he has a body no no why it's a shadow right it has a shadow okay what is this a reference to you worship shadows what is this a reference to Plato right how you go to the cave all reality is a shadow if you worship shadows you are in

hell, right? Out of the cave, Plato. So let's expand this, okay? They're in purgatory, which is the light. So it's like, Dante and virtue have escaped the cave, but what? They're still stuck in the cave mentally, right? They still think shadows are real, and these shades worship Dante because he has a shadow. Why, what is Donny trying to say here? What's the shadow? Anyone? Yes. What is the shadow?

Explain the metaphor to me. Well, it tries to imitate something real. Right. But it's not, yeah. It's two-dimensional as well. It's two-dimensional, yes? It means that in the platonic idea that a form has been instantiated so that when light shines on it,

beings can perceive it and that it's not in the formic world anymore. Okay. Yes. Yes? I think it's the negative aspects of Dante that he collected in hell. So it's still like his, you know, like when he was dirty and he needed to clean himself. He's still like dirty of his shadow. Yes. So it's going to be a process. That's right. That's right. So shadow is an aspect left over from hell. Yes. That, yes.

It's also eclipse of light. That's how shadow is created. What is a shadow metaphor for? Give me? Is this scene? No. No, shadow is a metaphor for what instance? Is it a lack of light? So it's blocking light in a way?

Uh, yes? Ego. Okay, the ego. What? What? Projection? No, no, no. Just concepts that's not God?

What? Uh, so, uh, in the allegory of the cave, there are people who sit at the bottom of the cave and they're in chains and they're looking at a wall and out this wall are shadows. And like if you go outside the cave, there's actually people and then there's a fire. So the, the shadow on the wall is the projection of the fire of the action of people. So that I think the shadow probably means an illusion, an illusion of reality. But why is it meant before? Knowledge that you only gain from looking at it.

Yes. Absence of God. Fame, guys. It's a metaphor for fame, right? You understand? And why is this important? Don is obsessed with fame. You understand?

What is saying is that Don is obsessed with fame. And why would this be important for us? Well, fame as a pride is a sin. Right? But why would this be a problem? for Dante? Yes? It would be something he needs to work on in purgatory. Right, right, but I'm saying like, why is that a problem now? Yes? Because it's just slowing him down. Yes, because he's trying to get to Beatrice, right?

Do you understand? This is a metaphor. Fame is what slows you down from achieving God, from achieving reunion with God. You understand? Okay. Now here's a hard question. Who put this idea in his head? Who said Virgil? Do you remember, where we discussed this right you guys remember what was the correct what was the exact phrase Virgil said when when was what did Virgil say say this what was the context you guys remember we discussed this okay so they are in hell they are in the circle of fraud and they're climbing these boulders right and it's tiring for Dante so Donne's And Virgil says to him,

Hurry up for what? Why should you hurry up? Excuse me? For fame, right? The exact phrase was Everlasting Fame. Remember? Right?

And we said, Virgil, why not to say for Beatrice, right? But instead, Virgil says, For everlasting fame. Right? You guys remember this. And now, Dante

Dante's shadow has made him famous in purgatory Right? But the irony is that it's a shadow therefore we know it's not everlasting And it's slowing him down In fact, he's not actually walking anywhere, okay? He'd rather talk to the shades. He rather just be adulated by his fans. He's not actually doing going anywhere, yes?

And it also tries to then mirror what he wants actually in reality in real life he wants this fame right yes and he but he gets the exact opposite by being exiled yes yes okay doesn't make sense he thinks he he he virtual said you're doing this for everlasting fame and now he's like well i have everlasting fame so i'll just stay here okay but the everlasting fame what gives an everlasting fame is the shadow and we know shadows are just illusions okay does that make sense and this happens this happened a lot where don't is slowing because he wants a fan to come adore him. He wants an everlasting fame.

And where's Beatrice in his mind? It's like, she's kind of gone now, right? He's like, my choice is climb all right up to the amount of procuratory and be with Beatrice or stay here and be adored my friends. I'd rather be adored by my fans. All right. Does that make sense? All right.

Okay. Line 22. Meanwhile, along the slope crossing our road slightly ahead of us, people approached, singing the mystery verse by verse. When they became aware that allowed no path for rays of light to cross my body, they changed their song into a long horse. Oh. Do you see what's happening here, right? These souls are committed to God. This is actually more interesting than God, okay?

And two of them serving as messengers hurried to meet us. those two inquired, please tell us something more of what you are. My master answered them, you can return and carry this report to those who sent you in truth, the body of this man is flesh. If as I think they stopped to see his shadow, that answer is sufficient. Let them welcome him graciously and that may profit them. Never did I see kindled vapors, red clear skies at nightfall or the setting sun cleave August clouds with a rapidity that matched the time it took these two to speed of love.

And there arrived, they with the others wheeled back like rangs that run without a rain. These people pressing in on us are many. They come beseeching you, the poet said. Don't stop, but listen as you move ahead. So, right, do you understand? He's being mobbed by his fans now, okay? And Donny loves this. From going.

Also, who make your way to gladness with the limbs you had at birth, do stay your steps a while. They clamored as they came. To see if there's any of us whom you knew that you may carry word of him beyond. Why do you hurry on? Why don't you stop? We all were done to death by violence,

and we all sinned until our final hour. then light from heaven granted understanding, so that repenting and forgiving we came forth from life at peace with God, and he instilled in us the longing to see him. And I, although I scrutinize your faces, I recognize no one, but spirits born to goodness. If there is anything within my power that might please you,

then by that same peace which in the steps of such a guide I seek from world to world, I shall perform it. And one began, we all have faith in your good offices without your oath, as long as lack of power does not curb your will. Thus I who speak alone before the others beseech you, if you ever see the land that lies between Romania and that realm, the realm of Charles, that you be courteous to me

and treating those in Fano to bestow fair prayers to purge me of my heavy sins. My home was Fano, with piercing wounds from which there poured the blood where my life lived, those I received among Antinor's son, there where I thought that I was most secure, for he of Esté, hating me far more than justice warranted had that deed done. But had I fled instead of toward Mira when they overtook me at Oriaco, then I should still be beyond where men draw breath. I hurried to the marsh, the mud, the reeds entangled me. I fell.

And there I saw a pool poured from my veins from on the ground. Okay. Sorry. So let's stop. And I want to ask everyone a question, okay? Can you become so famous that it takes you to heaven? Let's let's film about this, okay? Will celebrities go to heaven?

Yes? Because the first commandment is You shall have no other God before me And celebrities basically make themselves idols They are literally called idols Unless they are like, I don't know, idols that points to God Maybe, so then they become prophets instead of idols Like John the Baptist

But So John the Baptist was also a celebrity back then, but he points to Jesus, so it's okay. Yeah. Okay. Yes? I guess we've got false counselors in hell, then there can be true counselors.

And so you could be a famous true counselor. Right, right. Like me, right? Like I have my own YouTube channel, and I'm spreading wisdom. Is this going to get me to heaven? Please say yes. I think so.

But I think the answer is no. Is that actually going to help me get to heaven? Why not? What gets you to heaven? If you're in progatory, what gets you up to heaven? Yes? Inspiring imagination. And maybe the problem with celebrities and idols is

even if, say, the message is right, people will blindly follow what they say and not use their own imaginations. Okay, sure. But again, I don't want to praise myself too much, but I feel as though my YouTube channel, I am educating a lot of people. And I am, by teaching you, I am increasing your imagination, right?

So I like to think that I would get into heaven, but probably not. So why not? I think it would be the same as all the great thinkers, though, who has, you know, intellectual giants that we have depended on before, just like Virgil, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato. Yeah, I'd probably end up in limbo. Thank you. Yeah. All right.

Yeah. Yes? Because the journey to heaven is to, personal fundamentally is your journey of self-improvement and self-reflection that will bring you there you can still be a celebrity while doing it yes you can you need to almost turn that celebrity into something that helps yourself improve as opposed to the other way around so how can I like you know get up to heaven faster I think in general the journey to heaven or to purgatory or to

hell really start after a person completes his life journey so until the person completes his life journey there's no you know there's no start okay how can I like give me some personal advice okay yes yes if people pray for you then it's gonna speak and who's gonna pray for me we can not you guys no no my family do understand okay that's what Donna is saying here it's revolutionary You mean as famous you want, you can have a $2,000, you can be a massive celebrity. It doesn't matter, okay? What matters is your family.

What matters are your neighbors? What matters is your community? Because these people are going to pray for you every single day with all their heart and soul. Yeah, I mean, your fans might now and then say, oh, you know, let's give a prayer to Professor John. It doesn't matter, okay? What matters is you have to put your heart and soul in the pray. for someone and only your family would do that okay so so that's what dana is saying here don't chase fame fame doesn't get you anywhere chase love chase family okay be kind to the people around you and they will

pray for you after you die case doesn't make sense all right let's keep on reading line 85 another shade then said ah so may that desire would chaise you up the lofty mountain be granted with kind pity held my longing. I was from Montefeltro. I'm Buen-Conte. Giovanna and the rest, they all neglect me. Therefore, among these shades, I go in sadness. And I to him, with violence or chance so dragged you from the field of Campaldino, that we know nothing of your burial place. Oh, he replied, across the Cassantino there runs a stream called Archeano, born in the eponines above the hermitage. There at the place where that stream's name is lost, I came, my throat with peers, pleading on foot.

and bloodying the plain. And there it was that I lost sight and speech. And there as I finished, I had finished uttering the name of Mary, I fell. And there my flesh alone remained. I'll speak the truth. To you among the living retell it. I was taken by God's angel, but he from hell cried, you from heaven, why do you deny me him? For just one tear carry off his deathless part, but I shall treat his other part and otherwise. You are now in the air, moist vapor will gather and again revert to rain as soon as it has climbed where cold unfolds. His evil will, which only seeks out evil, conjoined with intellect, and with the power his nature grants, he stirred up wind and vapor.

And then when day was gone, he filled the valley from Prado Manio, far as the great ridge was mist. The sky above was saturated. The dense air was converted into water, rain fell, and then the gullies had to carry whatever water earth could not receive. And when that rain was gathered into torrents, It rushed so swiftly toward the Royal River that nothing could contain its turbulence. The angry Archeonoh at its mouth had found my frozen body,

and it thrust it into the Arno and set loose the cross that on my chest my arms and pain had formed. It rolled me on the banks and riverbed that covered girded me with this debris. Pray after you're returning to the world, when after your long journeying you've rested the third soul following the second, said, may you remember me, who am La Pia. Sienna made, Mirema made me. He who, when we were wet, gave me his pledge, and then as nuptial ring, his gem knows that. So these are souls who died in battle, okay?

And right now in history, a lot of people are dying in battle. It's basically gang warfare throughout Italy, okay? Fashion of fighting, just endless wars. And so if you die in the battlefield and you repent, you're put in, in progatory, but if you die violently, you don't even have a chance to repent, but you still put in progatory and you have to wait a bit before you can move on, okay? So again, what Donnie is trying to emphasize is God is merciful and God is just. Okay, count all six.

When diceing stun and players separate, the losers left alone disconsolate. Rehearsing what he'd thrown, he sadly learns, all the crowd surrounds the one who won. One goes in front and one tucks at his side. back and at his side one asked to be remembered. He does not halt but listen to them all, and when he gives them something they desist, and so he can fend off the pressing throng. And I, in that persistent pack was such. This way in that I turned my face to them and making promises escaped their clutch. There was the Eritin who met his death beneath Gino de Tacos, Beesio Hans, and one who drowned when in pursuit he ran. There with his outstretched hands

was Frederico Novello, praying in the Pisan, who made good Marcusew. show his fortitude. I saw Count or so, and I saw the soul cleft from its body out despite an envy, not so it said, because it had been guilty. I mean Pierre de la Bras, and may the Lady of Brabant, while she still in this world, watch her ways, or end among a sadder flog. As soon as I was free from all those shades who always pray for others' prayers for them so as to reach their blessed state more quickly, I started, O my light, it seems to me that in one passage you deny expressly that prayer can bend the rule of heaven yet these people pray precisely for that end is there hope therefore only emptiness or have i not read clearly what you said

okay so what danae is doing is he's listing a lot of people from his real life okay and it's a lot of people from his real life um we don't know who they are he but he knows who they are why is he doing this why is he listing so many people from his real life who who died Why would he do that? Yes? Shakespearean, where if I write you in poem, you live everlastingly. So that's one thing to commemorate his peers and friends. And then the other one is to console their family for red and be like, hey, by the way, your son is in progatory.

You know, like don't be too sad. Yeah, that's a great point. So even though we don't know who they are, his readers will know who they are and they're concerned by the fact that their loved ones are impregory. And so what's the effect of that? To know that your loved one is imporatory, yes? To the widows and the mothers and the family. And what will they do with their hope?

Pray really hard for them. It's making people live a life of faith, hope, and love, right? Because otherwise, they don't know where their loved ones are. They could be in hell. They could be in heaven. So without this hope, what would they do, usually? What are rich people doing at this time? You guys know?

That's exactly what they're doing. That's exactly what they're doing, okay? They don't know. They're uncertain. So they're going to give huge bribes to Catholic Church, which, as you point out, feeds the corruption, which feeds us in a cycle of violence, right? So by saying, don't worry, your loved one is impugatory.

Don't bother church, pray for this person. Okay? Does that make sense? Yeah. All right. Okay. Let's keep on going. Line 34.

And he to me, my... Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I forgot, okay? All right. So, Dante hears and knows that if you pray, if you pray for a loved one enough, this is going to reduce the loved one's time in proletory. But already said, God, is not transactional, right? God has perfect justice. You are punished for the crime you committed.

If your loved ones are praying for you, why should that matter? And what Donna says to Virgil is, hey, in your Indian ad, okay, you said very clearly, we mortals cannot at all impact the decision of the gods. We have actually no say in this divine cosmos. So what is it? Okay, that's a question that funny asked Virgil, and like, let's analyze Virgil's response. Line 34. And he to me, my text is plain enough, and yet their hope is not delusive if one scrutinizes it with sober wit. The peak of justice is not lowered when the fire of love accomplishes in one instant the expiation owed by all who dwell here. For where I asserted this, that prayers could not mend their fault.

I spoke of prayers without a passageway to God. But in a quandary so deep, do not conclude with me, but wait for word that she the light between your mind and truth will speak. Lest you misunderstand, the she I mean is Beatrice. Upon this mountain's peak, there you shall see her smiling joyously. This is such a great response from Virgil, okay? Dunning's asking him, Hey, Virgil, did you say in your text in the Indian ad,

which is the Bible, right? we cannot at all impact the decision of the heavens. And here in Procator, we're seeing clearly prayers are lifting people up faster to the heavens. So what is it? And what is Virgil's response? Can you paraphrase for me what he's saying here? It's such a great response,

and it shows you so much into his character. What does he say? Paraphrase for me. me his response. Yes? When I wrote it, prayers didn't work like that. Why not? Because Jesus hadn't died or Mary had not given birth to him. That's right. So this is, so I was talking about the pagans, guys. This is Christian.

You understand? That's his first response, right? Well, what I meant was the pagan world, not the Christian world. Now it's different. And what is the second response? Excuse me? Yeah, don't bother me, man. Go talk to Beatrice, okay? His two responses are, one, well, it's different now because it's a Christian world. And two, go talk to Beatrice, okay?

So why is Virgil responding the way he is? Again, this is different from Beatrice, right? Where Beatrice will actually tell you the answer, right? What, yes? He really doesn't want Dante to slow down. and just get involved You're such a generous, optimistic person, man.

Yes? With that authoritarian teacher, it's like, shut out and move on, okay? Don't question me, I'm your teacher. Kind of just go, shoot. Like, if you ask someone these questions, that question says, well, it's a different world now,

and also go talk to another person. Why would you think that person has to respond to the way that he or she wants, like, has responded. He's just coping. It's cope, yes. But it's also what? Do you know, audience questions?

Do you mean? Dogeing the question? Yeah, he doesn't want to think about this. You understand? He does not want to think about what this is happening. Dante proposed a contradiction. He's like, well, actually, there's a loophole. Okay?

He's, like, being a lawyer here. He's trying to dodge the question. He's trying to avoid the question. Because he does not, him, he himself does not want to refute. on what's really going on. He wants to maintain his worldview, right? We talked yesterday about fixed mindset versus growth mindset.

He's a fixed mindset, right? Okay, let's keep on going. And I, oh, actually, line 49, and I, Lord, let us move ahead more quickly. For now, I'm less weary than before. And you can see the slope now cast a shadow. As long as it is day will make as much headway as possible, he answered. our climb won't be as rapid as you thought. You will not reach the peak before you see the sun returning.

Now he hides behind the hills. You cannot interrupt his flight. Okay. So Donnie says, Lord, let us move ahead more quickly for now I'm less wary than before. And you can see the slope now casts a shadow. Why is Dante less wary than before? Yes? Because he's left his fans behind, but he's happy that he had fans.

Yeah, again, you're so generous with Dante. No. Think think like Dante is a really proud person, yes? Yeah, that's way too generous for Dante. Yeah. Why is Dante really excited now? Yes? He's like, I saw all the loopholes that you make,

and now I'm above you in the way intellectually. No, no, no. What does Dante care the most about right now? Yes? To progress their journey so that he can. have made more offense? What did Danty see that makes him happy now? That Dante himself?

No, no, no, no. Guys, read the text. I'm asking you a question. What did Darnie see? Yes? The slope now casts a shadow. Yes. What did he see now?

Well, people or... No, guys, what's he seeing now that's like, whoa, yes, great! No, no, no, no, come on. What's he seeing right now? Literally. The peak? Literally. What's he saying? Literally. He sees what? He's focused on this.

Maybe a friend. So 61. We came to him. Oh, Lombard. No, no, no, no, no. You're jumping ahead. I just want to focus on these three sentences. Right? What's he seeing now? That the slope is easier. This is so hard for you guys, okay? He sees something and it makes him really, really happy, excited. What is it? Curtis Let's keep on going, okay? Let's keep on going, huh?

Yeah, like, you guys can't see it, right? He sees it and it makes him really, really happy. Theatrice. Okay, let's read it again, okay? There's only, like, so many possibilities here. And you got, I just want something he sees here that makes him really, really happy. Yes?

Let's look cast a shadow. But what does he see? Like casting a shadow. on something other than himself. Guys, visualize this. What is he seeing right now? What is he focused on right now? Did not line 46, 47?

No, no, no. Let's just focus on these three lines. What three lines? Three lines. Oh, 49 to 51. Sorry, can you read again for everyone? 49 to 51. Sorry.

And I, Lord, let us move ahead more quickly. For now, I am less weary than before. You can see the slope now casts a shadow. What does he see? Isn't that purgatory is real to him now? No, what did he like literally see right now? Another shadow. He sees a shadow.

He's really happy about it. Why? Because he's also still in the cave mentally. Right? So why is he happy to see the shadow? What's going to happen now? Maybe another friend. He's going to chase the shadow.

Right. Right. So this is, what's happening is he sees shadow. And so what he knows? So what does happen? What's it going to happen now? What's the shadow is cast? He's going to be mobbed by his fans again, right?

You understand? So that's what makes him excited. Not Beatrice, not God, not the slope, not purgatory. He's like, screw all that. I want my shadow, man. That's what I care about. Okay? Every time I catch a shadow, people are going to run up to me and says,

hey, can I have the autograph? So he's become addicted to his own fame. Do you understand the idea here? Okay. He's narcissistic. He's like, all I care about is my shadow now. Like, forget Beatrice. Forget Heaven.

I care about my shadow. That's it. Okay? And this is also true for people who are celebrities today, right? All they care about is their fame. Right? If you're a social media influencer, what's the only thing you care about? Exactly, right?

The metrics. The number of subscriptions you have, the amount of views you get, right? That's all you care about. And you're always like, how do I get more of these subscriptions? And so what happens eventually to some? Yes? Piat, consumed by it, so then they are eaten alive, so then they do all kinds of extreme outrageous things.

Because blood and gore is what sells the newspaper, so then you at the end turn into destruction of yourself. Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, there's so many examples, right, of social media influencers who kill themselves or who do outrageous things to attract attention. Because all they care about are the ratings, okay? Right? So, so that's what Donnie is saying here. Like, fame makes you egotistical, narcissistic, and it's an empty life. Because like literally all he cares about now is his shadow, okay? Which is just an illusion.

That doesn't make sense to you guys? All right, let's let's keep on reading. 52. As long as it is day will make as much headway as possible, he answered. But our climb won't be as rapid as you thought. You will not reach the peak before you see the sun returning. Now he hides behind the hills. You cannot interrupt his light.

But see beyond, a soul who is completely apart, and seated looking toward us. He will show us where to climb most speedily. We came to him, O Lombard's soul, what pride and what to stay and were in your stands. Your eyes moved with such dignity, such gravity. He said no thing to us, but let us pass. His eyes intend upon us only as the lion watches when it is at rest.

Yet Virgil made his way to him, appealing to him to show us how we'd best ascend, and he did not reply to that request, but asked us what our country was and who we were, at which my gentle guide began, Montchua and that spirit who had been so solitary wrote from his position saying, Oh, Montchua and I'm Sodelo from your own land and each embrace the other. Okay, so Virgil has met another poet,

Sardello, who is actually a very important poet. He has something called a Trubador, which is a love poet, a poet, a poet of the quality love tradition, okay? And they're both from the same place, and so they embrace each other. And you can see how happy and enthusiastic Virgil is to meet someone from the same area. Keep on going. Line 76. Abject, Italy, you inn of sorrows.

You ship without a helmsman in harsh seas, no queen of provinces but of Bordellos. That noble soul had such enthusiasm. His city's sweet name was enough for him to welcome there his fellow citizen. But those who are alive within you now can't live without their warring, even those whom one same wall and one same oath

and close, not each other. squalid italy search around your shores and then look inland see if any part of you delight in peace what use was there in a justinians mending your bridle when the saddle's empty indeed was there no reins your shame were less are you who if you understood what god ordain and would then attend to things to vow and in the saddle surely would allow caesar to sit see how this beast turns spheres because there are no spurs that would correct it since you have laid your hands upon the bit o german albert you who have abandoned that steed become recalcitrant and savage you who should ride astride at saddle bows upon your blood may the just judgment of the stars ascend with signs so strange and plain that your successor has to feel its terror for both you and your father and your greed for lands that lay more close at hand allowed the garden of the empire to be gutted come you who pay no heed do come and see montecchi capeletti said already and filled with fear monaldi for the peasant come cool one come see the tribulation of your nobility and heal their hurts and see and how disconsolate it's santa feure come see your rome who widowed and alone weeps bitterly both day and night she moans my caesar why are you not at my side come see how much your people love each other and if no pity for us moves you may shame for your own repute move you to act and if i am allowed oh highest jove to ask

you who on earth were crucified for us have you turned elsewhere your just eyes or are you in your judgment step devising a good that we cannot see completely de-severed from our way of understanding for all the towns of italy are full of tyrants and each townsman who becomes a partisan is soon a new marcellus my florence you indeed may be content that this digression would leave you exempt your people striving spare you this lament others have justice in their hearts and thought is slow to let it fly off from their bow, but your folk keep it ready on their lips. Others refuse the weight of public service, whereas your people eagerly respond, even an ass and shout, I'll take it on. You might be happy now, for you have cause,

you with your richest peace judiciousness, if I speak truly, facts won't prove me wrong. Compared to you, Athens and Lacedaemon, those civil cities with their ancient laws had merely sketched the life of righteousness, For you devise provision so ingenious whatever threats October sees you spin when mid-November comes will be unspunned. How often in the time you can remember have you changed laws and coinage offices and customs and revise your citizens? And if your memory has some clarity, then you will see yourself like that sick woman who finds no rest upon her featherbed.

But turning, tossing tries to ease her pain. Okay, so this kind of was about it into two parts, okay? The first part, we see the vanity of Dante, right? All he cares about is this shadow, because this shadow is bringing him everlasting fame where he is. But in the second half of the canto, Dante goes on this lament about Italy. It's returning to the prophetic tradition where he is saying that Italy is full of sin. And he's being very sarcastic about all this. He's being very ironic.

And he's almost appealing to divine justice and saying that Italy is terrible. It's full of sin. It's like Solomon Gomara. And so how can we explain this the economy, right? On one hand, he is just focused on his fame, his shadow. On the other hand, he goes on this little mat about the fate of Italy. Yes? I think because he's thinking what good could my fame ever do other than change Italy?

And he's using this as an opportunity. He's thinking about, well, I'm famous now. It's kind of a meta thing to the reader. Speaking of fame, what should a good famous person do but instruct his nation? Yeah. Okay. Anyone else? Yes?

I think also that he's talking about how he feels the pull of fame. even in his self, but there are people he's talking about that are even beyond that when they're not even asked to do something, they just try and gain power immediately. Who's your favorite celebrity? Like a movie star or like, um... I just tried to ditch all them for Jesus because they all had flaws. Okay. Does anyone have a celebrity that they worship or whatever? What do they like? Yes? Kanye West.

Yeah. Kaya West. Okay. All right. So what does Kanye West say about the world that allows you to admire him? Not necessarily about his opinion on the world. I admire him because he, there's a saying of him is we're just, what we do, we should be, how should you have phrased this?

Basically, he's telling us to be who we are and to embrace ourselves, be more courageous. Okay, so you admire him for his songs which deliver a message of courage and hope. Okay, yes? I would say Kanye pretty much share the same perspective with Dante on the world. like choose love over fear like be fearless and always be certain like always be certain about who you are and like what you impact on the world right and be imaginative right

are you a concern at all about his personal life the fact that you know he marries and divorces and he seems to pay no attention to his kids are you at all concerned about his personal life I'm pretty much concerned about his personal life. And I don't think, it doesn't seem good to me. But besides those, his personal life, I think he still sticks to himself. And he pretty much hadn't changed a bit among all this chaos.

And, yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. So this is harder, okay? But I want to bring up an idea that we learn in paradise, which is there is the absolute will. Absolute will is just what you believe and who you are, okay? Your absolute will, who you are, what you believe, what your ideal state is.

And then there's the contingent will, okay? We learned this in paradise, contingent will, which is what you choose to do. Okay? An example is Picarda because Picarda is a just person who is devoted to God, right? She is a princess and she's like, I don't want to participate in this world of politics. I want to go to a nunnery and devote myself to God. That's the absolute will. The contingent will are the choices you make in your life. and so when her brother sent soldiers to

kidnap her from the comment she did not resist she went with them okay so this is something to keep in mind as we continue to read Dante there is a difference okay there's difference between what you believe and what you say and what you do okay so yes so he is very much concerned about the failure of the world but the same time

Don is obsessed with his faith And this is not necessarily a contradiction. And in life, what we're trying to do is align the two, right? The alignment of the soul. And that's hard to do. Okay. All right. All right.

So let's go to the next, um, canto. Okay. Sorry, sorry. So before we begin, I, I want to like think about this. So Dante is obsessed with his shadow because it's what's bringing him all the, all of the attention, okay? And so he's slowing down. he's looking for like wherever his shadow is okay and he gets really excited when he sees when he sees his shadow it's almost like like a drug now okay and how does virgil feel about all this

what is going in the mind of virgil as he's seeing this anyone yes i can't believe that beatrice sent me for this guy yes right it's like what a douche back this guy is right what a doche back this guy is right what a Pushback. Okay, what else? Uh, yes? Yeah. Um, maybe Virgil is happy. Virgil is happy. Why? Because, um, he finally corrupted.

Yeah, like, I, I told him to do things for everlasting fame. Now he's doing what I want. So now, and so now I control him. Yeah. No, no, that's not how Virgil thinks. What is Virgil's major emotion right now? It's kind of frustration, right? Like, what a doucheback this guy is?

But what else? What's the major emotion? You would feel if you were Virgil. Impatience, right? He's telling, Donnie will hurry up, yes? A little bit of jealousy. I think jealousy, right? I think if I were Virgil, I'd be very jealous about this.

Okay? Does that make sense? Okay. All right, so remember where we are, where Danty is now obsessed with his shadow. and Virgil's like, oh my God, what a douchebag. And so Virgil wants to move as fast as possible, right? Okay.

Okay, let's continue to read. Canto seven. When glad and gracious welcomings had been repeated three and four times, then Sardello drew himself back and asked, but who are you? Before the spirits worthy of assent to God had been directed to this mountain, my bones were buried by Octavian. I'm Virgil, and I'm Depriol.

and I'm deprived of heaven for no fault other than my lack of faith. This was the answer given by my guide. Okay. We know Virgil is lying here. What is false about what he just said? So don't ask him, who are you? And I'm Virgil. And I'm deprived of heaven for no fault other than my lack of faith.

Where's the lie? Yes? I'm not deprived of heaven because of his lack of faith. it's his active ego that he chose to be. Okay, so we know it's a lie, okay? And how do we know it's a lie? But for a fact, it's a lie. And how do we know?

We know it's a lie. He may not know, yes? Because he could never have made it to heaven because he was born before Mary gave birth to Jesus. So he was never going to make it anyway. He was always going to end up in limbo. Well, that's what Virgil believes. But we know it's a lie.

Why? We know for a fact it's a lie. Also because he betrayed God through his work. No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying like, we know for a fact it's a lie because of what evidence? Pagans in Pagans in Purgatory? But how do we know that? Cato? Cato, do you understand? We know this is a lie because we just saw Cato in Pogatory.

And Cato, we know for fact, is a pagan. And Cato was like, oh, I'm a Christian. no no he's like I'm still Cato okay so we know this is a lie right does Virgil know he's lying here we know it's a lie but does he know it's a lie no I'm saying does Virgil know it's a lie right yes I think he he don't he doesn't know it's a lie yes it's hard not to know that it's a lie because he met Cato he talked to him yeah right you know he's like You are the other me and why are you here?

I'm not. Like, hello. We had this major encounter between Cato and Virgil. It's a very embarrassing, awkward encounter, right? So how could Virgil not know he's lying? That's exactly it. Con of Dissinance, okay? That's the idea here.

Okay? Again, what's amazing is Conant of Dissin's, right? What's amazing is that this is written in the 14th century and already, Dante knows about modern psychology, right? This is kind of dissonance. And what's kind of dissonance?

So you hold on to your own worldview because you can't let it shatter. It's too much to you. All right. Do you guys understand? So did you want to add to that? Yes. So when you hear something that someone else says

that is different to your own perception of the worldview, you feel uncomfortable. No, no, you don't feel, you don't feel uncomfortable. What do you do? You rejected, you understand, okay? So what's happened is Virgil had this encounter with Cato. It was so traumatic for him that he just blocked it out. He doesn't remember he this encounter.

He doesn't remember Cato. Did you want to say something? Yeah, just recently I looked at the definitions and etymological origins of an illusion and a delusion. An illusion is like a magic trick. And your mind's like, oh, that's not real, but you know it's not real. And a delusion is when you accept it into your whole essence. Right, exactly. Okay.

So that's what this is really interesting what's happening, right? Where Virgil goes to purgatory for the first time meets Cato, knows for a fact now that pagans are allowed access to purgatory. And he's like, screw this. And he forgets about it. And it's like forever blocked from his memory. Okay. So this reveals so much. about his character and his motivations, right?

All right. Um, let's keep on going. Line 10. Even like one who suddenly has seen something before him and then marveling, dust and does not believe saying, It is is not. So did Sordello seem. And then he bent his brow, returned to Virgil humbly,

and clasped him where the lesser presence clasps. He said, Oh, glory of the Latins, you through whom our tongue revealed this power. You, eternal honor. of my native city. What merit or what grace shows you to me? If I deserve to hear your word, then answer, tell me if you're from hell. And from what cloister? Through every circle of the sorry kingdom, he answered him, I journeyed here. A power from heaven moved me, and with that I come. Not for the having, but not having done, I lost the sight that you desire, the sun, that high sun I was

laid in recognizing. There's a place below that only shadows, not torments, have a sign to sadness. is their lament is not an outcry but a sigh. There I am with the infant innocence, those whom the teeth of death had ceased before they were set free from human sinfulness. There I am with those souls who were not clothed in the three holy virtues, but who knew and followed after all the other virtues.

And if you know and you're able to, would you point out the path that leads more quickly to the true entry point of purgatory? Okay, sorry, so let's feel on this, okay? So, Sardello says, oh my god you are him you are the Virgil

And how And so like So Diolo Humbolded himself Before Virgil He basically bows down to Virgil And how does Virgil

Feel about this? How does Virgil feel about this? Bittersweet Bittersweet Again, you're so generous Not bittersweet No Just happy

He's ecstatic, okay? He can be happier in his life. Why? Why can he be happier in his life? Yeah? I mean, he's gained, he seems to have got a taste of the fame, even though he has no shadow, and that his achievements in life seem to have raised him above the state,

and that the guy still really loves him, even though he asks, are you from hell? And he goes, yeah, kind of, but the guy's like, oh my God, it's still really lovely. What is Virgil really pissed off about right now? What is Virgil not happy about right now? Yeah? He's pissed off for that Dante.

Seems like Dante has gained more famed over him. Yes, exactly, right? He's pissed about Dante. Like, why he's starting more famous here than I am? And now he meets someone like, oh, you're more famous than Dante. And Virgil's like, oh, yes, I am, okay? And how do we know he is ecstatic? Let's read his speech, okay?

And tell me what in his speech? speech tells us he is ecstatic through every, sorry. Uh, sorry. Uh, line 22. Line 22. Through every circle of the sorry kingdom, he answered him, I journeyed here. A power from heaven moved me. And with that I come.

Not for the having, but not having done. I lost the sight that you desire, the sun, that high sun I was laid in recognizing. There's a place below that only shadows, not torments, have a sign to sadness. Their lament is not an outcry, but a sigh. There I am with the infant innocence, those whom the teeth of death had ceased before they were set free from human sinfulness. There I'm with those souls who were not clothed in the three holy virtues, but who knew and followed after all the other virtues. Okay, so he's ecstatic and we know because of his speech. What is interesting about his speech here?

Can you guys analyze the language? Yes? The first point that jumps out is that he says he is in. the other virtues so that he didn't have the three key ones, but that he is very much exemplifying all the others in his life. Yeah. So if you're really happy, you tend to like boast about yourself, right? It's like, look how great I am. Yes. Okay, that's one thing. Yes. What else? Yeah? When he talks about his traveling through the circles, he doesn't mention Dante or the mission. He just says it's the power of heaven. He said, I came up through the surface. He even comes to focus all of his attention, right? He forgets to say,

then before he was like, okay, well, I'm helping guide Dante through how I'm portatory, but now it's just like me, me, me. Okay? Again, that's, if you're really ecstatic, you just focus on yourself, right? What else? And again, this

is different from his other speeches. Okay? Uh, yes? Well, um, I lost the sight that you desired the sun that high sign, the high son I was late in recognizing so in a way he now does recognize the Christian god basically and he he also recognizes that he he's wrong or he was wrong before no he's not that's not that's

what he's doing here actually okay yeah yes I think he's beautifying the places that he he is at and he's trying to kind of Photoshop it. Like, Leman is not an outcry, but a sigh. And I'm with the innocent. And it's just too bad. I died before, you know, Jesus came. It's not really my fault.

He's using a lot of adjectives. Yeah. He is exaggerating. He's creating like this opulent flowery language. And that's different from his speeches before, where he was very terse, very short, okay? Very brief. And to the point.

Now he's just like, like, look, like trying to show off his poetry. you do understand. He's trying to impress. Yeah, it's full of simile and metaphors. And he's making himself an angel almost. He's boastful, he's wagging, and he's trying to impress, yes. Yeah. One more thing. Or, will there more, yes?

He also mentioned that in how they're full of shadows. So this is him saying that the fact that Dente has shadows behind him is not a great deal. That is very clever, yes. I didn't see that, but that's exactly correct. Yes. It's like, why are you guys like focus on his shadow? There's shows everywhere in hell, man. Right?

He's still pissed about Dante. Exactly. Yes. Thank you for that. Yes. Anyone else? Okay. And I, yes?

Anyone else? Yes? I thought the infant innocence go to Parisia. Oh no, no, no. It depends on the situation. Most infants go to live. but there are some parents who pray for the infant and who do so many good deeds that their actions help the infants ascend to heaven. Okay.

So those are special cases. Okay. Yeah, I would also point out that he uses I a lot, right? I. And he also, this is actually pretty long by the standards of Virgil speeches. Okay. So it just shows you how ecstatic he is. That's funny, someone finally recognizes him.

and knows he's better than Dante. Yeah, it takes up six stanzas compared to all his short terse versus... Yeah, yeah, he's usually very, very, very terse. Yes, keep on going. In 40, he answered, No fixed place has been assigned to us. I'm free to range about and climb.

As far as I may go, I'll be your guide. But see now how the day declines by night we cannot climb, and therefore it is best to find some pleasant place where we can rest. here to the right our spirits set apart if you allow me i shall lead you to them and not without the light you'll come to know them how is that he was asked is it that he who tried to climb by night would be impeded by others or his own lack of power and good sordello as his finger traced along the ground said once the sun has set then look even this line cannot be crossed and not that anything except the dark of night prevents her climbing up it is the night itself that implicates your will once darkness falls one can indeed retreat below and wander aimlessly about the slopes while the horizon has enclosed the day at which my lord as if in under in wonder said lead us then to there where as you say we may derive the light from this night's day okay so there's a very particular particular rule to proletory which is like once it's night

you can't move anymore or you can't cross certain boundaries anymore okay why would they have this rule in progatory you didn't have this in hell you don't have this in heaven what would you have it in Yes, you than you, okay? Tating a real place, like as it is on Earth. So if you had traveling on Earth back then in Middle Ages, you can't. Okay, so it's trying to imitate the world as much as possible. What else? I was going to say something similar, but I also think that other than imitating the real world,

you're basically trying to purge your shadow. So in the mystic world of purgatory, it's pretty difficult to know. where you would try and chase if you were like trying to cleanse yourself if there was no light at all to be a reference okay okay okay all right let's let's be very simple about this okay in the day they're walking right and these souls are so excited that at night if they could they would walk as well and so they have this rule which is like at night you cannot proceed any further okay you cannot advance your progress. This is very strange because you would think that

a very idea of purgatory is to encourage you to expiate your sins as fast as possible. So why would they have this rule you cannot advance during the night? Yes? It's maybe a moment for people to self-reflect. Yes. Why? Because you don't move.

Then you're just thinking about where you are, why you are there, and then what's going on? Well, if it's night and you can't move, what are you doing? You're talking to people, imagining, oh yeah, dreaming. You're sleeping, right? When you sleep, what happens? You dream, right? You understand.

And you're right. The entire point of procuratory is to cause self-reflection. And one way to provoke self-reflection is just to have the guy sleep, man, you know? because when you sleep, you dream and your dreams reveal things to you that you couldn't know before. Does that make sense? Okay. So the entire point of purgatory is to force self-reflection. And that's what makes it different from hell.

But there are different ways in which you can force self-reflection, right? So one way is through the discussion, but another way is for dreaming, okay? And what's another way to force self-reflection? Can you guys guess? Dreaming, sleeping is a way to force self-reflection, right? Talking about other people is another way, but there's also other ways. And what are they? Seeing someone else do the actions that you do.

Yes, that's right. Yes, good. What else? Worshiping, praying. Yes, exactly. And they do worship and pray here, yes. What else? Yes?

Abstinence from things. So any kind of endoward indulgence or process that you do just taking it away and seeing what it's left in the void of your life okay all right so yeah that that's correct okay but but i want more common things okay so sleeping is one way and then another way is do people ever take a step back in purgatory there is it is a beeline one step in front of the other always progress because i self-reflect when i fail or i have a shortcoming sure sure yes so so they will be forced to like stand still and and fail yes okay but but and what is the really common way in society that forces our self-reflection

maybe walking excuse me maybe take a walk uh yes you learn for mistakes yes writing maybe writing yes but what's causing all this like like reading or kind of go to class or something okay okay okay okay um we're gonna have time okay but art guys art art A, R-T, art. Does it make sense to you? When you go to a museum and you see all these paintings, when you hear great music, when you watch a great movie, it forces self-reflection on you, right?

Doesn't make sense? So dreaming, artwork, okay, and we'll see a lot of artwork in purgatory. All right, let's keep on going. Line 64, we had not gone far off when I perceived that just as, valley's hollow mountains here in our world so that mountain there was hollowed. That shade said, it is there that we shall go to where the slope forms of itself elap. At that place will await the days coming. There was a slanting path now steep, now flat.

It led us to a point beside the valley, just where its bordering edge had dropped by half. Gold and fine silver, coquineal, white lead, and Indian like night, highly polished, bright, fresh emerald at the moment it is dampened. If placed within that valley, all would be defeated by the grass and flowers colors. Just as the lesser gifts way to the greater, and nature there not only was a painter, but from the sweetness of a thousand odors, she had derived an unknown mingled scent. Upon the green grass and the flowers, I saw seated spirits singing Salve Regina. They were not visible from the outside. Okay, and also nature as well, right?

Your art, yours of nature. Okay, keep on going. Before the meager sun seeks out its nest, began the man chewing. who let us hear, do not ask me to guide you down among them. From this bank, you'll be better able to make out the acts and features of them all than if you were to join them in the hollow. He who is seated highest with the look of one-tilex in what he undertook, whose mouth, although the rest saying does not move, was Emperor Rudolf, one who could have healed the wounds that were the death of Italy, so that another later must restore her. His neighbor, whose appearance

comforts him, govern the land in which are borne the waters of Moldau, carries to the el and the Elby to the sea, named Otokar. In swaddling bands, he was more valiant than his son, the bearded Vensisclos, who feeds unwontiness and ease. That small-nosed man, who seemed so close in counsel with his kindly friend died in flight, deflowering the lily. So see how he beats his breast there, and you see the other shade, who, as he sighs, would rest his cheek upon his palm is on a bed. Father and father-in-law of the pest of France, they know his life, it's filled its vice out of that knowledge grows the grief that has pierced them that other who seems so robust and sings in time with him who has a no so manly wore the cord of every virtue and if the young man seated there behind him had only followed him as king then valor might have been poured from vessel into vessel one cannot say this of his other heirs his kingdoms now belong to james and frederick but they do not possess his best request how seldom human worth ascends from branch to branch and this is will to

by him who grants that gift, that one may pray to him for it. My words suggest the large-nosed one no less than they refer to Peter, singing with him whose air brings Pooley and Provon's distress. The plant is lesser than its seat, just as the man whom Beatrice and Margaret wed is lesser than the husband Constance has. You see the king who let the simple life seat it alone, Henry of England, he has better fortune with his progeny. He who is seated lowest on the ground, and looking up.

is William the Marquis, for him both Alexandria and its war make Montferrato and Kanavese mourn. Okay, so these are monarchs, right? And again, they are anti-Puratoria. They are waiting until they've made their penance and they're ready to climb purgatory, okay? All right, this is going to be Procratory 8. Conto 8. It was the hour that turns seafarers longings homeward, the hour that makes their hearts

grow tender. Upon the day they bid sweet friends farewell. The hour that pierces the new traveler with love when he has heard far off, the bell that seems to mourn the dying of the day. When I began to let my hearing fade and watch one of those souls who, having risen, had signaled with his hand for attention. He joined his palms, and lifting them he fixed all his attention on the east, as if they say to God, I care for nothing else. Teleucci's auntie issued from his lips with such devotion and with note so sweet that I was moved to move beyond my mind. And then the other spirit followed him, devoutly, gently,

through all of that hymn, their eyes intent on the supernal spheres. Here, reader, let your eyes look sharp at truth, for now the veil has grown so very thin. It is not difficult to pass within. I saw that company of noble spirit, silent and looking upward, pale and humble as of an expectation, and I saw, emerging and descending from above two angels bearing flaming swords of which the blades were broken off without their tips. Their garments just as green as newborn leaves were agitated, fanned by their green wings and trailed behind them, and one angel came and stood somewhat above us while the other descended on the opposite embankment, flanking that company of souls between them. My eyes made out their blonde heads clearly, but my sight was dazzled by their faces, just like any

sins bewildered by excess. Both come from Mary's bosom, said Sordello, to serve as the custodians of the valley against the serpent that will soon appear. At does not, knowing where its path might be frozen with fear, I turned around, pressing close to the trusty shoulders. And Sordello continued, Let us now descend among the great shades in the valley. We shall speak with them in seeing you, they will be pleased. I think that I had taken but three steps to go below

when I saw one who watched attentively trying to recognize me. The hour had now arrived when air grows dark, but not so dark that it deprived my eyes and his of what before they were denied. He moved toward me and I advanced toward him. Noble Judge Nino, what delight was mine when I saw you were not among the damned. Okay, all right. So one last question and then we'll take a break, okay? So clearly there are references to the Garden of Eden.

Because if you read Genesis, what happens is we got banished from the Garden of Eden, and there are two angels with flaming swords and now watch over the Guard of Eden to bar entry. What are the two angels doing here? Did you guys spot that? What are the two angels doing? They have flaming swords. What are they doing?

The answer the valley against the serpent. Yeah. So what does that mean? They're to protect on the mountain from the devil, right? from the snake and what does that mean why what what would that mean yes that even in self-reflection the devil can come in or that in like this is a place of art of looking at great people of history for dante but he's being reminded that this is not a place safe from all evil and that there's still temptation and trouble sure yes that's right the snake will always be there okay the snake is eternal yes

Okay, let's just say that you, we're all going to Purgatory, okay? And we see these angels. What would our first fear be? I'm sorry, we'd be afraid, right? Because we think these angels, what are they doing here? You're safeguarding purgatory from Vivo. So if I'm going through the gate, right, I see these angels. I'd be worried that they might stop me.

Yes, right? Right? Because Genesis, the Bible told us that these angels are to protect the Garden of Eden. Which means what now? Which means what? What's this thing? Why is there a snake here? Where's the snake trying to go? Because we're in the Guard of Eden right now. Okay. So the first idea is there is a Garden of Eden and that's where the snake is trying to go, right? So the Garden of Eden is actually on top of Mount Procatory, okay? But what but if you're again if you're Christian you're kind of surprised by all this why

why would you be surprised to hear there are two angels guarding it's a snake in progatory yes I don't know whether this is my paradise lost knowledge talking but I thought that Satan comes into a snake who's in the garden of Eden already he doesn't have to make a journey through any other places so you'd be confused that the snake has to do anything to get in there right so so remember we are now in the future right so what's happened is adam and eve we're tempted by the snake and they ate the fruit and now they've been banished from and they were banished from the garden of eden and so why would this all be surprising for us yes uh maybe because uh people just feel fear in So they don't want to die and they just want to leave and this kind of fear and desire and

If you're a Christian yes after Jesus died for our sins are we allowed to go back to the garden of me? We're allowed to go back now guys. Okay? It's open now The angels are there not to borrow entry. They're there to bar the snake from entry. We're allowed to go in now, right? Were you taught this in Christian school? And it makes sense logically, right? If Jesus died for our sins and we're not redeemed in the eyes of God, theoretically we should be allowed back in the God of Eden.

Right? And that's what Dante is saying here. If it is true that we're redeemed, then the Garden of Eden should be open, right? And who redeemed us from our sins? Not Jesus. Mary. And how do we know that? Because Virgil tells us.

No, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. saying in the text, how do we know that? The Mary, the angels come from Mary's bosom, right?

Mary redeemed us, and so they came from our heart to protect us as we enter the Garden of Eden. Does that make sense? Okay, this is a cosmology of Dante. It's Mary redeemed us, and Mary redeemed us, then we're allowed to go back to the Garden of Eden. Okay.

All right. Okay, so any questions about this? Yes? Is there anyone there in the Garden of Eden? Like is one of the subtext of this fear that Dante feels that he's trying to get there and maybe the snake will be there when he gets there? Is the assumption here that there's already people hanging out in the Garden of Eden? Yes.

Yes. So the Garden of Eden is at the very top of Mount Pergatory, okay? But our goal is not the Garden of Eden, right? Our goal is heaven. So we're going to pass a Garne Eden but we're really trying to get to heaven. But the point is, and this really important is, again, this is where Donne is optimistic. He's like, we've been redeemed already. Therefore, the Garden of Eden has been open to us, and therefore we know we've been redeemed.

Right. God has forgiven us for our original sin. All right. Any more questions? Yes? So the Garden of Eden is earthly paradise, and people in purgatories are concerned with earthly paradise. That's right. That's right.

right okay great okay so uh let's take a break i don't come back at one o'clock okay all right okay good afternoon welcome back um so i just received an email from professor bromwich and he he said you guys are lovely which is a pretty high praise coming from him okay uh but he is right um you uh have improved a great deal and I think that our discussion right now is very deep. If Dante were here, he would approve. He would be smiling at us. Okay, so congratulations on everyone. Okay, so any questions from this from this morning, any issues from this morning that you would like to any questions? Yes. I'm just a little bit confused about what would you say is the major point of the long canto where he lists all the kings, because he's such an economical poet.

Yes. But there's just so many kings listed. I'm assuming that's to weigh down on the read or something, but I'm not 100% sure what that is. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that Dante does not waste words. This is why this is poetry. It is the best economic poetry. So again, this is all speculation. But what I think Dante is trying to achieve is one of totality, one of completion, right? So he wants, so at his heart, he's democratic. So he's trying to speak to everyone. And he's trying to give people a sense of the unity of the world.

And so he's trying to create good role models. And at this time in history, there are a lot of really bad kings. Right. And what he's trying to say is that even if you're a bad king, there is hope for you. Right? Because what's the most common thing to do? If you sin, you're like, well, I'm screwed anyway. So go for it, man.

You know? I'm going to hell anyway. Who cares? I'm just going to enjoy my time on earth for the next 10 years, kill as many people as possible. Then I'll burn in hell for a eternity. You know, at least I'll dive a bang. right because there's no hope for me so um at the summer history people are are very black and white about the way they perceive the world and what the honest trying to say is no no no guys that's not how it works

there's hope for everyone you can you can be the total asshole for all of your life but the very last minute you're like you know what i want to repent and god will give you a chance it may mean you are in proletory for like the next million years but they still hope for you right does that make sense? Okay, but that's what I think is happening. Okay, but there are, I'm sure there are other explanations. And it, but thank you for that. Any more questions before we continue? Uh, yes. My last query is that if Virgil is so smart, why does he feel jealous ever? What do you mean by that? Well, like, I, I was told from when I was young that jealousy is, is bad, so I just tried very hard for all of my life to try and not be jealous of other people.

I thought that was like an obvious mission. So I thought that people who were very developed in their mind and soul would have left jealousy behind. So it strikes me as surprising that Virgil would feel jealous of anybody, but I can see how he would be in this scenario. Right, okay. So that's a very interesting point you make. So there are many religious traditions that teach you that the ego is a source of sin. If you turn away from the ego, you move towards God.

But Darnie doesn't believe that. Darnie believes that the ego is the source of our imagination. These emotions that we have, whether to be jealousy, anger, hatred, they're part of who we are. And they help develop our imagination with color and with nuance. So it's not about avoiding these emotions. It's coming to terms with these emotions through experience, through reflection. and it's a process of self-development, okay? And this is why the divine comedy is constructed the way it is.

It's a journey, right? Because remember, in hell, Donny is just like the biggest asshole, right? He tells the father of his rival, your son's burning in hell. Right, that's just pure jealousy, pure envy. But what will happen is that in purgatory, he will move into a process of redemption and salvation. Okay, so, so, so that's what Dante believes. Does that make sense? Great. Okay. Any more questions? All right, let's, let's continue. Conto 8, verse 52. He moved toward me, and I advanced toward him. Noble judge,

Nino, what delight was mine when I saw you were not among the dam. There were no gracious meeting we neglected before he asked me, when did you arrive across long seas beneath this mountainside. I told him, oh, by way of the sad regions I came this morning, I'm still within the first life, although by this journeying. I earned the other. When they heard my answer, Sordello and Judge Nino just behind him drew back like people suddenly astonished. One turned to Virgil and the other turned and called to one who sat there, up, Corrado, come see what God out of his grace has will. Then when he turned to me, by that a special gratitude you owe to him who hides his primal aim so that no human mind may find the fore to it.

When you return across the wide waves, ask my own Jovana. There were the police of innocence are answered to pray for me. I do not think her mother still loves me. She gave up her white veils, surely, poor woman. She will wish them back again. Through her, one understands so easily how briefed in woman is love's fire, when not rekindled frequently by eye or touch. The serpent that assigns the Milanese their camping place,

will not provide for her a tomb as fair as with Galora's rooster. So Nino spoke, his bearing bore the seal of that unswerving seal, which, though it flames within the heart, maintains a sense of measure. My avid eyes were steadfast, staring at that portion of the sky where stars are slower, even as spokes when they approached the axle. And my guide, son, what are you staring at? And I replied, I'm watching those three torches with which the southern pole is all of one. than he to meet.

The four bright stars he saw this morning now are low, beyond the pole, and where those four stars where these three now are. Even as Virgil spoke, So Delo drew him to himself, drew him to himself. See there, our adversary, he said, and then he pointed with his finger. So adversary is the name of Satan, right? Satan literally means adversary in the Hebrew Bible. So again, it's referencing back to the Garminer Adam. the garden of Eden, and it's saying to us that if we deem ourselves, our adversary has been defeated.

Okay? I keep on going. Line 97. At the unguarded edge of that small valley, there was a serpent similar, perhaps, to that which offered Eath the bitter food. Through grass and flowers, the evil streak advanced, from time to time it turned its head and licked its back, like any beast that prines and sleeks. I did not see, and therefore cannot say, just how the hawks of heaven made their move, but I indeed saw, both of them in motion. Hearing the green wings cleaved the air, the serpent fled, and the angels wheeled around as each of them flew upward, back to his high station. The shade, who, when the judge

had called, had drawn closer to him through all of that attack, had not removed his eyes from me one moment. So may the lantern that leads you on high discovering your will to wax one need, enough for reaching the enamel peak. That shade began, if you have heard true tidings of Valde Marlindon or the lands nearby, tell them to me, for there I once was mighty. Curado Malaspina was my name. I'm not the old curado, but I'm descended from him. To my own, I bore that love that here is purified.

I answered, I never visited your lands, but can there be a place in all of Europe where they're not celebrated? Such renown honors your house, acclaims your lords and lands, even one has not yet to journey there. And so may I complete my climb, I swear to you, your honored house still claims the prize the glory of the purse and off the sword. Custom and nature privileged so that though the evil head contorts the world, your kin alone walk straight and shun the path of wickedness.

And he be sure of that. The sun will not have rested seven times within the bed that's covered and helped fast by all the Rams four feet before this gracious opinion squarely nailed into your mind with stouter nails than others' talk provides if the divine decree has not been stayed. Okay, so he lists a lot of people from his real life, right? And you can imagine what he's doing is he is in exile from Florence, and he needs to make a living, right? So basically by including families that he knows from Florence into this divine comedy,

he's also soliciting donations from them. Does that make sense? It's like Yale, you know. Taking donations. Okay. All right, let's keep on going. Question. Yes.

Are we saying Dante was sponsored in a way? He had patrons. Patrons. That's right. But you could always ask for more. All right. Okay. Canto nine.

Now she who shares the bed of old Tithanas, abandoning the arms of her sweet lover, grew white along the eastern balcony. The heavens facing her were glittering with jumps set in the semblance of chill of the chill animal that a salesman with its tail. While night within the valley where we were had moved across two of the steps it climbs,

and now the third step made night's wings and climb, when I, who bore something of Adam with me, feeling the need for sleep, laid down upon the grass where now all five of us were seated. At that hour close to morning when the swallow begins for melancholy songs, perhaps in memory of her ancient sufferings, when free to wander farther from the flesh

and less held fast by cares, our intellects envisionings become almost divine. In dream, I seemed to see an eagle poised with golden pinions in the sky. Its wings were open. It was ready to swoop down. And I seemed to be there where Gennimadee deserted his own family when he was snatched up for the high consistory.

Within myself, I thought, this eagle may be used to hunting only here. Its claws refused to carry upward any prey found elsewhere. Then it seemed to me that, wheeling slightly and terrible as lightning, it swooped, snatching me up to the fire's orbit. And there it seems that he and I were burning, and this imagined conflagration scorched me so.

I was compelled to break my sleep. Just like the wicking of Achilles when he started up, casting his eyes about him, not knowing where he was, after his mother had stolen him asleep away from Sharon and her arms had carried him to Skyrode. The Isle the Greeks would later make him, leave. Such was my starting up as soon as sleep had left my eyes and I went pale as will a man who terrified turns cold as ice. The only one beside me was my comfort. By now the sun was more than two hours high. It was the sea to which I turned my eyes. My lord said, have no fear. Be confident for we're well along our way. Do not restrain, but give free reign to all your strength. You have already come to purgatory. See there the

rampart wall enclosing it. See where that wall is breached the point of entry. Before at dawn that ushers in the day when soul was sleeping in your body on the flowers that adorned the ground below. A lady came, she said, I'm Lucia. Let me take hold of him who is asleep that I may help to speed him on his way. Sordello and the other noble spirit stayed there and she took you, and once the day was bright she climbed, I following behind. And here she set you down, but first, Her lovely eye showed that open entryway to me, then she and sleep together took their leave. Just like a man in doubt who then grows sure exchanging fear for confidence, once truth has been revealed to him, so was I changed.

And when my guide had seen that I was free from hesitation, then he moved with me behind him, up the rocks, and toward the height. Okay, all right, so let's analyze this. This is a very important section, because this is the first time he has a dream. He'll actually have many dreams because as he points out, dreams come from the divine. The divine is giving you a message.

And what happens is that he falls asleep. He has a dream of an eagle snatching him. And he wakes up, startled, and Virchal says, don't worry, it was actually Lucia who came down from heaven to carry you to the gate of purgatory.

Before they were anti-procatory. Now they reached the gate of progatory. and now they will make their assent. And so that's a plot line of the first half of this canto. Now, if I were Dante's writing teacher, okay? And he came to me and he showed me this. I would be like, Dante, you're lazy. Okay?

It's like you're trying to move the plot along and you need to get to the gate of purgatory really fast. So you're like, you just make something up. I'm like, okay, an angel took me to the gates of purgatory. That's it. Okay, so C minus for you, Dante, which is basically a fail at Yale. Convince me I'm wrong. What would Donne say?

Right? I'm reading this. This is lazy writing, man. You're just skipping the plot, right? You don't know how to move the plot along, so you just, well, then we just got to procuratory because the angels took us. Convince me I'm wrong. How would Donnie defend himself and says, no, no, no, no, this is actually perfect.

Yes? With the divine plan or his cosmology, that you cannot enter progatory without the love for support or the angel prayer of your family or friends, and that's how you get there. So it suits the theory. That's right, okay? So one possibility is that Lucia and all the woman, Rachel, Roof, and, and, and. and and beatrice all praying for him and so this is how he gets to the get of purgatory okay that's one possibility yes um so this whole journey i don't want to say it's a dream but it's like a vision of of some sort and so he's having a dream inside of a a dream so to speak um could this be um him him willing it like where there's a will there's a way so he dreams

that he's carried and then therefore he is carried i would say it's the opposite right because lucia literally carries him right lucille literally carries him all the way to the gate which is a long way and Virgil and so they'll have to walk anyone else want to try yes so this entire trip like down the hell and up the mountain purgatory is supposed to be an experience that the reader can actually like participate in so like if we're if we're to be like truly experienced what dente has experience we need to like like listen listen him like listen someone else reporting what happened during our dream so that we can feel the same sense of um doubt and um yeah doubt towards what he actually dreamed.

Right. And I agree with that. But the problem is like, it's like, if you were to do that, you would write about how arduous the journey is, right? You would write about your emotions during this journey. You wouldn't say, like, I had a dream, and then I got to where I am.

Right? So that's why I would give him a C-minus, because he's being lazy here. I'm trying to get you to convince me. I'm not, he doesn't, he doesn't a plus. Yes? I just think that for him to describe the ardues

journey, any detail is a distraction and not true. Because of course he's creating the cosmology, but he would have to say there were some really tricky rocks, there were some animals, but what do these signify? I just think he doesn't want to confuse us with any detail that we'd read into before we get to the gates, because there's so much symbolic imagery, even when he's trying to get through the gates, there's like three steps made out of different rock and stuff. And I just think Any detail of the journey towards the gate would distract us from the symbolism past the gate. So yesterday we talked about this, right? How the details add to the journey, how details make us part of the story.

Yes? Well, I don't know about Dante, but like in life, sometimes to get through purgatory, to get through life, you need help from other people. And sometimes these forms of help come at you without you necessarily being aware or conscious. I don't know if this is a message that is trying to convey. Okay, but it is conscious because Virgil tells him what the dream is about. Yeah, go ahead. I would connect it back to prior our one hour, prior to our one hour break. We were just told by Sordello that nobody can move ahead at night.

But this is actually, you can move ahead by, by, you can move ahead by, but at night. And so I would argue that, you know, there's transcendence to this, and you can actually transcend whatever rules there are. Right. Okay. I actually took this to, I actually interpreted this as like he was so tired. He stopped for the day. And so like Virgin sort of like him on walking and like he was asleep.

So Lucy is like, I have to come and get him. Okay. Uh, yes? Yeah, I had your same interpretation, but then there's a line. It's like the sun rose and then they were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Um, any other suggestions? Yes. Is it possible that Danty is so happy because many people get so happy to, they can't remember so many things and they just maybe.

Okay. All right. So. We have to remember that ultimately this is a movie. This is a journey, a movie where the characters are real. What is Dante's state of mind right now? What does he really care about right now? What is he in love with right now?

His shadow, okay? Okay? So, he's in love with his shadow. So he's like walking really slowly. He's procrastinating. He's oversleeping. He's spending a lot of time with the other shades, like offering autographs, okay? Beatrice is up there watching this.

And what is she thinking right now? Yeah, she's kind of pissed right now, right? Why is she pissed? Yeah, she's like, what about me, man? Right? I only did you this favor because I thought you truly love me and only love me, and now you're in love for your own shadow. All right?

So if your features, what are you going to do? This guy and just bring him to me closer. No, but like, why not just go in like punch the guy, you know? I just curse the guy. Why are you like lifting the guy and carrying him to the gates of purgatory? Yes? Okay. Right.

But I'm trying to figure out why not just like curse this guy. You're like like like because Virgil would do that, right? Right. interest in heaven isn't going to curse anybody but um what is saint lucia saint um is that a clue uh st lucy saint lucy so there's argument about who she is but um what most most people believe is that she is someone who gave who who um became a christian and then when she was forced to get married she killed herself rather than um um uh get married and so she's like the opposite of of picardia Yeah. There are lots of these saints in the church.

Yes. I think if you're coming from a mother or like a wife perspective or girlfriend, because you love this guy so much and you know that he has his faults and he's stupid sometimes. But you still forgive him and you want to speed him alone. And so then you're like, I'm going to send you help so that you just keep this part of temptation that's going to make you fall or make you slow down. It's a nudge, right? And this nudge is going to force starting to think,

why did this happen? Why did they have this dream, right? Because it's a dream. It's an eel coming to snatch you up. What does this dream signify? Right? So it's two things. It's one, it's like the dream.

And Donnie's forced to think about how to interpret this dream. It's also Lucia coming down from heaven, herself, and carrying Dante. If you are Dante, what are you thinking right now? What are you thinking right now? Yes? I'll probably feel a bit good. and then I'll just stick to my task.

No, you're not gonna feel guilty. What are you gonna feel? Yes? Maybe annoyed? Not annoyed. Lucky. No. If you're Dante and this happens to you, what are gonna feel? Ashamed?

Uh, a shame maybe, but also... No. I mean like... Like... Yes? But it's like, oh man, all my... fence now I don't get to see them no I would feel fear what what would I feel fear it was mad he's no longer going to get all the help from her and then he'll just be left in the purgatory uh no it's actually much more subtle so than that can you try um because the story

of Ghanemite is kind of creepy to me because he was like kidnapped by the eagle yes and he became the cut there. So he's like basically the slave in heaven. Yeah, that's exactly right. The dream is making him afraid, right? Do you understand? The dream isn't like, oh wow, Lucia came to like, you know, take me to proctor. I'm really, really happy. No, it's fear. The emotion in the dream is fear. He's afraid, right? But I'm trying to figure out why he would be afraid. Because Lucia came to help you out, right? Why would he be, why would he be, why would he be? Why would he be afraid. Do you guys not have like girlfriends? Do you not know how girlfriends behave? Yes? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. Guys, do you not have girlfriends, okay? Or wife or mother.

Like they're really pissed at you. What do they, what do they do? Yes? Well, Beatrice thinks that Dante's kind of cheating or on her basically. Basically, yes. And she and so, they will, the angel will judge him maybe for him. So that's what he's afraid of. That, that he's going to get judged based on that. Right. Okay.

So, so I, like, like, this is hard, but, but this is a life lesson for our guys, okay?

Truly, if you're a girlfriend, right, and like, you do something stupid, um, and she shouts, she shouts at you,

right? She hits you. You're good. Okay. But if she, like, she buys you dinner and she gives you flowers. You're really screwed.

She's going to kill you now. Okay? Life lesson for the guys in here. All right. So Dante is now terrified, right? You understand? He had this dream which is like, ha, someone's pissed at you, Dante, right?

This dream is an omen. It's a divine message. And then Virgil says, Lucia came and then Virgil, and then, like, Lucy is British's best friend, right? I'm now in a lot of trouble. right and he knows it's because for the past you know whatever he's he's been in love with his own shadow okay but but you see how how amazing this is right because it gives you complete insight into human

psychology and it's very real okay all right let's let's keep on going verse 70 reader you can see clearly how i lived my matter do not wonder therefore if i have to call and more art to sustain it. Now we were drawing closer. We had reached the part from which where first I'd seen a breach, precisely like a gap that cleaves the wall. I now made out a gate,

and there below it three steps, their colors different leading to it, and a custodian who had not yet spoken. And I looked more and more directly at him, and I saw him seated on the upper step, his face so ready and I could not bear it. And in his hand he held a naked sword, which so reflected rays toward us,

that I, time and again, tried to sustain that sight in vain. Speak out from there, what are you seeking? So he began to speak. Where's your escort? Take care lest you be harmed by climbing here. My master answered him. But just before a lady came from heaven and familiar with these things told us that's the gate, go there.

And may she speed you on your path of goodness. The gracious guardian of the gate began again. Come forward, therefore, to our stairs. Okay. Dante and Virgil are approaching the gates of Procatory. And with each gate in Procatory, there's been an angel guarding it. And this is very similar to Hell, right? Where there are certain demons guarding certain passages in hell.

And Virga has to come forward and say, we come here with a mission from heaven. And what's the difference in responses between the demons and the angels? The demons in hell and the angels here. What is the difference? Again, it's these subtle details that make the divine comedy so imaginative, yes? The demons usually say, why have you come, but the angels say, what do you want? What are you looking for?

The demons are usually angry or just are disturbed? What's the most common response when Virgil says that we have a mission from heaven? What is the most common response from the demons? You guys remember? And again, this is what makes... divine calming so magical because because he pays attention to these details they're silent right okay you don't know the you don't know what the response is they're just silent whereas these angels are actually enthusiastic great sure come in let me help you okay all right

so so again there's attention to detail uh can keep on away There we approached, and the first step was white marble, so polished and so clear that I was mirrored there as I peer in life. The second step, made out of crumbling rough, rough, textured, scorched with cracks that ran across its length and width, was darker than deep purple. The third, resting above more massively, appeared to me to be of porphyry, as flaming red, as blood that spurts from veins. And on this upper step, God's angel seated upon the threshold, which appeared to me to be of adamant, keep his feet planted. My guide with much goodwill had me assent by way of these three steps

and joining me. Do ask him humbly to emboalt the gate. I threw myself devoutly at his holy feet asking him to open out of mercy, but first I beat three times upon my breast. Upon my forehead he traced seven peas with his sword's point and said

when you have entered within, take care to wash away these wounds. Okay, so the seven peas, the peace ends for peccata, which is Italian for sin, okay? So the idea is that Thonnet has climbed seven terraces, which are the seven deadly sins, and he has to purge himself of these seven deadly sins. He's going to purchase himself, an angel will come and take away a pee.

Okay, so he's tracking his progress for progatory. Okay, keep on going on going. Line 115. Ashes are dry earth that has just been quarried with chair one color with his rope, and from beneath that rope, he drew two keys. The one was made of gold, the other was of silver, first with the white, then with the yellow key, he applied the gates OS to satisfy me. Whenever one of these keys fails, not turning appropriately in the lock, he said to us,

this gate of entry does not open. One is more precious, but the other needs much art and skill before it will unlock. That is the key that must undo the knot. These I received from Peter, and he taught me rather to err in opening than in keeping this portal shut whenever sold pray humbly. Then he pushed back the panels of the holy gate saying, Enter, but I warned. you, he who would not, he who would look back, returns again outside. And when the panels of that sacred portal, which are of massive and resounding metal, turned in their hinges, then even tarpia, when good metellas were removed from it, from which that rock was left impoverished, did not roar so, nor show itself so stubborn. Hearing that gate resound, I turned attentive,

I seemed to hear inside, and words that mingled with gentle music, to deum laudamus. And would I heard gave me the very same impression one is used to getting when one hears a song accompanied by organ and now the words are clear and now are lost okay so the angel is saying two things about this gate okay the first thing about this gate is that they're generous they will let in more people than they actually need to they want to give people opportunities and a chance okay second thing is the moment you come in don't look back go in with total faith and be resolute the moment you lose your faith the moment you become doubtful, then you'll be kicked out again, okay? Well, let anyone in, but once you come in, you have to be pretty harsh on yourself.

Okay, and those are the rules for proletory, which is very different from what the church teaches you at this time, which is that it's very hard to get in, but once you're in, you're good, okay? It's the opposite. Okay, so this is progatory 10. Count to ten, when I had crossed the threshold of the gate that, since the soul's aberrant love, would make the crooked way seem straight, is seldom used, I heard the gate resound, and hearing knew that it had shut, and if I turned toward it, how could my fault have found a fit excuse? Our upward pathway ran between cracked rocks. They seemed to sway in one, then the other part, just like a wave that flees, then doubles back.

Here we shall need some ingenuity, my guide warned me, as both of us draw on your, near this side or that side where the rock wall veers. This made our steps so slow and hesitant that the declining moon had reached its bed to sink back and to rest. Before we had made our way through the needle's eye, but when we were released from it an open space above, a place at which the slope retreats,

I was exhausted. With the two of us uncertain of our way, we halted on a plateau lonier than desert paths. The distance from its edge, which rims the void, into the base of the steep slope, which climbs and climbs would measure three times one man's body. And for as far as my sight took its flight, now to the left, now to the right hand side, that terrace seemed to me equally wide. There we had yet to let our feet advance when I discovered that the bordering bank, less

sheer than banks of other terraces, was of white marble and adorned with carving so accurate, not only polyclitous, but even nature there would feel defeated. The angel who reached earth with a decree of that peace which for many years had been invoked with tears. The peace that opened heaven after long interdict appeared before us, his gracious action carved with such precision. He did not seem to be a silent image. One would have sworn that he was saying, Ave, for in that scene there was the effigy of one who turned the key that had unlocked the highest love.

And in her stance there were impressed these words, Eché Anchila Day, precisely like a figure stamped in wax. your mind must not attend to just one part the gentle master said he had me on the side of him where people have their heart at this i turned my face and saw beyond the form of mary on the side where stood the one who guided me another story upon the rock therefore i moved past virgil and drew close to it so that the scene before me my eyes was more distinct there carved in that same marble were the cart and oxen as they drew the sacred ark which makes men now fear task not in their charge. People were shown in front, and all that group divided into seven choirs, made two of my sons to speak. One sense said no, the other said, yes, they do sing. Just so, about the incense smoke shown there, my nose and eyes contended to with yes and no. And there, the humble psalmist went before the sacred vessel dancing, lifting up his rope. He was both

less and more than king. Facing that scene, and shown as at the window of a great palace, Mikhail watched as with a woman full of scorn and suffering. To look more closely at another carving which I saw gleaming light beyond Mikal, my feet moved past the point where I had stood, and there was the noble action of a Roman prince was presented, he whose worth had urged on Gregory to his great victory. I mean the emperor Trajan, and a poor widow was near his bridle, and he stood even as one in tears and sat in his wood.

around him horsemen seemed to press and crowd above their heads on golden banners eagles were represented moving in the wind among that crowd the miserable women seemed to be saying lord avenge me for the slaying of my son my heart is broken and he was answering wait now until i have returned and she as one in whom grief presses urgently and lord if you do not return and he the one who will be in my place will perform it for you she what good can others goodness do for you if you neglect your own he be consoled my duty shall be done before i go so justice asks so mercy makes me stay this was the speech made visible by one within whose sight no thing is new but we who lack its likeness here find novelty while i took much delight in witnessing these effigies of true humility dear to see because he was their maker the poet murmured see the multitude advancing though with slow steps on this side they would direct us to the higher stairs my eyes which had been satisfied in seeking new sight a thing for which they long did not delay in turning toward him but what I would not have you reader be deflected from your good resolve by hearing from me now how God would have us pay the debt we

owe don't dwell upon the form of punishment consider what comes after that at worst it cannot last beyond the final judgment master I said what I see moving toward us does not appear to me like people, but I can't tell what is there, my sight's bewildered. And he to me, whatever makes them suffer, their heavy torment bends them to the ground. At first, I was unsure of what they were, but looking intently and let your eyes unravel with beneath those stones, you can already see what penalty strikes each. Oh, Christians, arrogant, exhausted, wretched, whose intellects are sick and cannot see, who place your confidence in backward steps. Do you not know that we are worms and born to form the angelic butterfly

that soars without defenses to confront his judgment? Why does your mind presume to flight when you are still like the imperfect grub, the worm before it has attained its final form? Just as one sees a time as corbel for support of ceiling and an oar of roof, a figure with knees drawn up into its chest, and this oppressiveness unreal gives rise to real distress in him who watches it. Such was the state of those I saw when I looked hard. They were indeed bent down, some less, some more, according to the weights their backs now bore, and even he whose aspect showed more patience and tears appeared to say, I can no more. Okay, all right, so they are past the gates of the progatory. They're now inside progatory proper. And what's the first thing that D'Ate sees?

What's the first thing he sees? What's there awaiting him in progatory? The first thing. What? Rocks? Rocks. Yeah. Right. And what are these rocks? What's inside these rocks?

Carvings, okay? This is artwork. The first thing that Donny sees when he enters purgatory is artwork. Carvings off the rock that depicts scenes of humility. Okay? These are just famous scenes. And what? What Danty does is that he turns these scenes into basically a movie, right, a story that he plays in his head.

So what he's trying to suggest here is, if you want to really redeem yourself, if you really want to cleanse yourself, what do you need first and foremost? What enables you to redeem yourself? what allows you to absorb yourself reflection yes humility examples of humility to copy you need reflection

but what drives the reflection art but why art imagination imagination okay that's what Donnie is saying here if you really want to start the process you need imagination so what I want to do now is let's drop the Mona Lisa

Okay. Is the, do you guys like the Mona Lisa? Okay. Or maybe something else. Do you guys prefer the Mona Lisa or another piece of art? Huh? The Last Supper? Okay, let's do both.

Okay. Let's let's do both the Mona Lisa and Last Supper. Okay. All right. So now what I want to do is this. What Donnie is suggesting is like the act of looking at art. Okay, the act of interactive art of art betters you as a person. Okay. Now I want to figure out why. All right. So you have the artwork, okay, the painting. And it could be Mona Lisa or the last supper. Let's just do last supper. Yeah, let's just do last supper. Okay. All right. And I want to figure out why this is the case. Why when you look at art, it's just, it's just. changes you for the better and it enhances your imagination okay let's try to figure this out you

go to uh the loo what's the last supper the last supper is in and you've seen it right right so so so let's let's let's say you're you're there right and you're you have the room to yourself and you're sitting down for a whole afternoon and you're looking at the last supper by yourself okay and what saying is that when you do that it changed you as a person and you become a more virtuous person i'm trying to figure why that's the case all right has anyone actually done that has anyone just sat down in front of a painting for a whole afternoon and just looked at it okay well tell me what's going on all right let's let's let's just list them what's your mind doing actually looking at the painting yes uh yeah i used to uh try to keep looking down that kind of painting and uh uh

I don't know, I just feel so strange. I was just in a painting. I was in a painting. I was in the Jesus position or even try to imagine myself. If I were in the painting, I was standing on a table. What should I think? So you participate in it, yes. Okay, what else?

Well, first I would try to figure out who the people are in the painting first. So their background, what? Yeah, like just knowledge about them so I can better understand them and where they come from. Okay. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to fill in the story, right? Does that make sense? There's a story inside the painting. You're trying to fill it in.

You're trying to figure who they are, what are they're doing. Okay? Yes? I try and put, try and put myself in the shoes of, of the artist and ask, you know, why is he put a certain detail in the painting? Okay, right. Okay, so analysis. You do analysis, technical analysis, yes. Sure. Right. So you're switching perspectives. Okay. Sure. What else? Yes. Yes. Good. Yes. Okay. You're trying to connect it to yourself. Connection. Good. Yes. Excellent. Yes. Yes. You start looking at the colors and you see the picture as a whole, but you also start focusing on details. Yes. Okay.

Right, okay. So you're trying to focus on the details. Details focus. Yes. And what would you do that? Because you already see the whole picture. So you want to see what each part of the picture is like. Okay. Right. So you're basically trying to world build. Okay. World build. Okay. Anyone else? Yes? I will try to understand what the, um, what the artist try to convey. Okay, okay, the story, okay, the message. Yes? Anyone else?

Yes? I usually try to dissolve myself a kind of disassociation in order to assimilate within the painting, trying to forget yourself, trying to forget yourself. And it's like how do you get moved by a painting where you have to disassociate into the painting? Okay, that's a really interesting comment, okay? But I want you to break it down for us and try to, like, literally explain what's going on. So it's like constantly trying to ebb and flow between doing what being the viewer and being the artist, being the subject and being the physical object. And you're just trying to play back and forth between who am I and what is the painting and trying to bring them together.

Right, okay. So it's a dialogue, right? A dialogue, assimilation, okay, yeah, simulation, right? Would it be fair to say that when you do this, you're also moving beyond time and space? Okay, so you're moving outside of time and space, which creates unity, okay? Does that make sense, guys? Time and space creates separation, but once you move out of time and space, it creates unity. All right, thank you. Yes?

I like looking at projects of people. So at Oxford, all our dining halls will have, like, all the famous alumni hanging hanging or like and then they will be looking down on you as you're eating and then you feel like you have this connection with them they used to sit at these halls and tables and eat under the same candlelight and then you wonder if they are still somehow alive in heaven looking down on you and expecting you to do some great things as well so that one day your pictures will be hang up here but but like try to explain how this connection works there's connection you're at oxford and all these great people these ports are all around you and it seems as though they're stare at you from heaven. Explain how that could happen. Because the pictures are positioned so high up on the ceilings and then literally they're like looking down on you

while you look up at them while you're eating. And like it feels like there's this eternal capsule of their souls in essence somewhere left in the painting or their memories of this hall resonates with you. Okay. Right. Okay. So like all on wonder resonance, sure.

resonance okay so Benjamin Franklin oh sorry not Benjamin Franklin Walter Benjamin would have a phrase for it

he calls it aura okay and his argument is this okay it's a very strange argument

okay but like obviously we can't know with this right but in the real last supper in the church

in Florence is it Florence or yeah so you're sitting there okay whenever you're sitting there that painting is sucking up your energy, right? So it has its own aura.

It's alive, okay? Right? And so, and that aura then becomes reflected in you as well, right? And so that's what Walter Benjamin would say. Every artwork has its own aura, meaning its own personality, develop over hundreds of years of audience participation. Okay. Any other? Come on, you guys have all looked at artwork, right? Yes?

I guess just looking at the lines we just read. Yes. About resolving paradoxes, but also using your imagination to give life to the painting. Because the first carving, he says, two senses were inside me. One sense said, no, they're not seen. Like, that's the realistic material, Dante. And the other sense, yes, they do sing. Yes.

So I guess it's giving yourself over to the reality. of the painting. I don't know what to call that process. Well, I would say it's co-creation, right? Because the artist has created a reality, but with your imagination, you are making this reality much more vibrant, and you're changing the dynamic of this reality. It's just a co-creation process, right?

Yes? Oh, sorry, sorry, yeah. So this is before pictures or cell phones or anything like this, so you're capturing a moment of time. And there's like a duality going on here, like declaring yourself into the universe or even narcissism however you want to call that yeah also um putting yourself out there to empathize and be empathized with right okay so it's almost like a for meditation right a meditation that creates a sort of mystical experience

mystical connection does that make sense guys right when you look at a painting yes um so when i went to Florence and one of to one of the museums there. I went with a friend and uh when I just thought when I started looking at the paintings I we just started to like debate about the paintings we we've we've looked from different perspectives what the artist was trying to convey yeah and we we like we really went deep and we kind of that's really how I started to understand the picture more to debates to listening to someone else's perspective as well. Yeah but what's interesting is what the painting has done is enhance your individuality.

And so when you're engaging in debate, you're expressing your individuality, right? But the main point is, first of all, your individuality was activated, right? And that's why everyone who looks at a painting is going to have a different interpretation, because we're all unique individuals. Okay, so it really activates your individuality. Good. Okay, anyone else? Yes?

I think this is why the Catholic Church will always have. the stained glass window with a lot of stories and greeted on them. The whole point is that most of the time you are illiterate coming into the church. And then all you can do is look at pictures. And then the pictures can kind of, you know, wash what is seen in a way, right? Like art kind of purifies you. Plus, it makes you bow in humility towards the beauty of God. Like the minute you enter this hall of pictures and light shining through the window shining on you,

and make you feel elevated in a sense of like, Oh, Lilya, you know, you go, you without the organ, you can feel the organ, you know. And then so it's a very spiritual experience. Right. Can we go to the Mona Lisa please? Who's actually seeing the Mona Lisa, like in real life? All right. Okay.

What is unique about the Mona Lisa? Only the Mona Lisa does this. Can you tell us? I'll be talking about the fact that whatever you are in the room, she looks at you. It's really weird. Do you guys like experience it? Yeah. walk around her eyes follow you they track you it's really weird right you really feel it because like

wherever you are in the room the aura is here and you can just like turn her back and then yeah she's still here like you can't move away from like the energy of this it's really weird i've never been but like you know i i've read stories yes not just that but there's a song by nat king cole the singer he's a song called the Mona Lisa, where he says, is your smile to tempt a lover, or is it just another work of art you're putting on your face? So when you're in front of her, it's very about co-creation because it's your inner feeling in that moment defines what you read her smile as because it's such an elusive smile. And it's amazing standing in front of it because sometimes she's upset with you. Sometimes she's like Beatrice, like saying, come on, you need to

rise up. And then sometimes she's saying, wow, it's okay, you're a human being. Right. It's like she's alive. Right. Sorry, did you, did you, your experience with the Monalisa? Can you talk about it? It's really, you know, really hard to actually look careful at Monolisa because there are so many people sitting in front of you. So, uh, I understand that, yes. Yeah. And, uh, I feel the energy. Yeah, I feel the energy, but it's, but you felt the energy, right? Yeah, I feel the energy. Yeah. That's, that's the aura. Yes.

Yes? I guess I wanted to expand on these ideas, then would art show you what is possible and therefore expand your imagination? Yes, that's right. That's right. You're forced to expand your imagination in order to have all these feelings, right? And the more feelings you have, the more your imagine expands. Yes, exactly.

Any other? Yes? Yeah, because I've often heard that her, Melissa's hands is not the woman's hands. It's a baby, infant's hand. And the face is like a man is not a woman. So maybe it's the fantasy who just try to portray himself. So and even the bone, I think it's a combination between the baby,

between the woman, between the men. So it's kind of carnation. Okay. Yes? Just to add on to that about our. is actually one of the reasons why me and my husband converted from Protestantism to Catholicism because in Protestant religion like you you can only have the cross which is a symbol for Christ. There's no art, very little music, well there is hill song but that's it.

So there was no mystical stuff, no incense, no. But Catholic Church is like man, full on, you know, like art, music, incense, all this very materialistic, almost, you know, like down to earth things that really incites, like, kind of all your senses to feel God. And then with Protestantism, it's all abstract ideas, symbols, theories, concepts, that's very soul or spirit. But Catholicism is very bodily. It's very femalely. It's very womanly.

It's very artly or musically. And that kind of has a connection to your soul or your body, like, in a way, your senses awaits your soul or spirit. to feel closer to God. So this concreteness. Great. Okay. So we've established what art is and what the impact of art is on you.

But now we want to figure out why the imagination, expand the imagination, would necessarily make you a more virtuous person, right? That doesn't actually connect. Yeah, we know art expands your imagination, but why would that make you a much more virtuous person ready for catharsis, ready for progatorial? proletary why would the first step to self self salvation and redemption be art why yes can create consciousness about your emotions because like when you see art then you feel something and then

you think about it why am i feeling this yeah okay so so so let's let's let's go over this okay one is the emotions okay the entire point of art really okay is to like shock your emotions to the forefront right so your emotions are now like alive and you actually feel them much more uh closely yeah thank you okay anyone else so that's the first okay art will shock you and then your emotions come to the forefront right then what happens yes well to add to that point it strengthens you your empathy for especially the artist obviously who tries to express his own emotions and then you can start to emphasize with his emotions and then that's how you expand your imagination because you can put yourself into his shoes and feel as though you are him yeah exactly okay so

imagine this okay your emotions are being shocked right they're in jolt they're in motion now and what the artwork does is we focus your emotions in order to empathize with a painting right so it's reordering your emotional state okay does that make sense all right and obviously um it makes you more virtues but why yes yes my first practical answer would be you realize that acting virtuously is what creates a universe where imagination can flourish and come into being so the virtues are designed so agents in a universe act so that everybody can imagine more and

there can be more in the universe. Okay, that's true, but I want to go into the technical details of how this happens, okay? What you say is abstractly true, but I want to know how concrete it happens, yes? The word that comes to mind is

dissociation and then the ability to put your center away from yourself and I guess comes back to empathizing with the artist's emotions, empathizing with the technique he uses, the process, his story, everything, like being able to think outside of yourself. Okay, yes?

Of love with the artist, and you become thankful to him for creating this. Sure, but I'm saying, like, what does that? But it's like love. So, like, basically you, there's a relation between you and the art, and so you and the artist, and then thanks to this, you become thankful through this, like. Okay, okay. Yes, yes, but that's the end, okay? I think you, first of all, your emotions are forced into motion, okay? Then your emotions become more focused on the artwork.

And then there's a step, and then at the end, you have a sense of gratitude to the artist, you have a sense of connection to the artist. But what's the missing step? What focus your emotions? Self-reflection? What is the art? It forces you away from the material and you think about more of the abstract.

You guys are thinking too hard about this. What is art? What do you watch art? Yes? I guess fundamentally it's proof that other minds exist. Like it's against solipsism. What draws you to the art? Beautiful.

It's beautiful. It's beauty, you understand. Okay. You see how this works? The beauty shocks your emotions, okay? It's like seeing a beautiful woman on the street. You're like, oh my God, I need to meet her, okay? Your emotion are shocked into place.

The beauty then focuses these emotions and then orders the emotions into something that is virtuous. but why would beauty be virtuous? What's the election between beauty and virtue? Yes? Because of the surface of beauty and after the surface of beauty and in the depths of an artwork is love. So eventually the greatest artwork

eventually has to be the most associative and the most associative power I think is love. Yes, okay, yes, that's right. Beauty will lead you to love. But what is it about beauty that allows you to love? Yes? I think because beauty as a construct has formulas in a way.

Like we talk about geometry, numerology, and all these essence. Just the same way you see math and science reflect the beauty of the design or whatever divinity reflects in it. And so the moment you see beauty, you kind of makes you think about the smart designer who you know has designed these things yes okay yes maybe because of curving because the you can see the women they got curving waves they're got shape which right to like up and down right so there are mathematical principles to beauty right there's symmetry there's the um um um pie principle right yes yes did you want to have yeah so um i'm a member of the cormac

McCarthy society and he has this line beauty and truth are one yes that's right exactly the the key is the word you just said symmetry in all great art that's symmetrical when you see a beautiful man or woman, there's symmetry in their face. How this correlates to truth is, we don't just say I'm wearing a gray shirt. That's a shirt. That's not truth. That's just a fact. If I say the Vietnam War started because of X, Y, Z, that's not the truth because I need to know what happened right before it, and what happened right before that, and what happened on the move, and what happened a thousand years before.

And the reason that we can't get to truth or no journalists can get to truth is because he can't write everything. But there is one entity that can write everything into all, and that's God. Yes. And so beauty and truth are one. Exactly. Okay. So do you guys see how this works, right? The beauty, there's mathematical principles behind the beauty, including symmetry, all that.

And that takes you into the mind of God, the very center of God. And then that becomes truth, and that's what allows you to love. You understand? Okay. So great artwork gives you access into the very mind of God, allows you to connect. with the universe and that's what makes you virtuous okay it activates the love inside of you all right yes is that not the very platonic view like plato really thought about mathematics and its connection to god yes but he's still but what i don't understand is then he still denied art as a form of god or like

an expression of god right okay that's a really good question okay so it is true that for Plato, mathematics is the mind of God. It's also true that if Plato were to see the Mona Lisa, he'd be horrified. Why would he be horrified? Do you guys know why? Yes? Because it's just a falsity. It's like just an illusion.

It's a shadow. It's being praised as form it. That's right. It's a shadow. And so for for Plato, what to really access the mind of God is you can, you have to avoid the beauty. focus on mathematics you understand for him it's not beauty gives you access to mathematics it's beauty distracts you from the mathematics just focus on the mathematics okay don't don't look at the painting just look at the mathematics behind the painting and that's what

gives you access to god but plato's wrong okay i mean like just because he's played doesn't mean he's right all the time it doesn't make sense okay uh yes do you personally think maybe that's why some mathematicians go crazy is that they're getting i agree yeah Can you explain that? They're getting too close to God? No, I think it's because they're too far away from God. Yeah, I think it's because they create the own reality and they've lost connection to the real.

And that's why, you know, like the best math positions, they do their best math at maybe around 20 to 30, that age group. And then afterwards, they go insane, okay? And it's no different from, I would say, computer programmers, if that makes any sense. Like, once you create your own reality and you try to inhabit this reality, and you lose your connection to the divine through beauty and for truth and for love, you're going to go crazy.

Okay. And yes? But how does that looking at the painting make people a more virtuous person? Okay, so the process is this, okay? The beauty of the painting draws you, okay, compels you to look at it forever, okay? You lose a sense of time and space. you're just focused on it. You become one with the painting.

In this process, what happens is your emotions become jolted. They become out of place. What this basically means is that your worldview is evolving. And through this process, then your emotions become rearranged in a new worldview

that focuses on the painting. Okay? And the painting, once you keep looking more at it, you access truth. Why? Because beauty and beauty and truth are one if it's God, right?

So you're giving access into the mind of God. And then that, because you know that God is love, that forces your emotion to be rearranged in a way that allows for more love, which is more virtue. Does that make sense? Okay. Yes? I have a question just on, about what you personally feel.

So there's a fractal called the Mandelbrot set. Okay. which maybe it'd be good if we saw a picture of it. Sure. Let's sign up. And it's basically a small, very short formula, which lists points to do with primes and you'll see it. I've been obsessed with these and they moved me so much from when I was a very, very small child that you can zoom in with infinite complexity. Do you think this is more beautiful than any human art?

Because it's literally the art contained within mathematics. Yes? At Peking University, and when he saw these images, he's also a computer programmer. He got the Olympics into computer programming. But he said that it is what that moves him to God as a middle schooler, because the minute he saw the science and the design and the numerology, the symmetry, the golden ratio, and all of these, is that you cannot study science without knowing logos, without understanding like all these design.

So that's how he moved from atheism to religion. But let me ask you this question. Would you rather spend like 10 years look at the Mona Lisa or 10 years look at the Monobrot set? You can zoom in the Manabroft set forever and it's never the same. You can zoom in and it changes forever and ever and ever. But what do you feel emotionally when you look at the monobrot set? Not like a human being.

What do you mean by that? Like, when I feel, when I want to feel like a human being, the Mona Lisa and things, they really do it for me. Yes. But then there's some kind of transcendental feeling when your individuality leaves you and you're just trying to be with the mind of God or whatever you think that is. Right. I understand. I understand. And if you do it for a long, long time, that might be problematic. Yeah, I think definitely 10 years, Mona Lisa is better. Yeah. She's a bit of company. She's a bit of company. she's a little company yes yes okay i would think so all right okay good let's continue guys okay

all right let's let's go to canto eleven okay okay so we are now in the first terrace which is to purge you of pride okay so um you have to learn humility in this terrace okay let's uh Let's read, okay? Our Father, you who dwell within the heavens, but are not circumscribed by them out of your greater love for your first works above, praise be your name and your omnipotent by every creature just as it is seemly to offer thanks

to your sweet effluence. Your kingdom's peace come unto us, for if it does not come, then though we summon all our force, we cannot reach it of ourselves. Just as your angels, as they sing Hosanna, offer their wills to you a sacrifice, so may men offer up their wills to you.

give unto us this day the daily manna without which he who labors most to move ahead through this harsh wilderness hold back even as we forgive all who have done us injury may you benevolent forgive and do not judge us by our worth try not our strength so easily subdued against the ancient foe but set it free from him who goats it to perversity this last request we now address to you dear lord not for ourselves who have no need but for the ones who we have left behind beseeching thus good penitence for us and for themselves, though Sheth moved on beneath their weights like those we sometimes bear in dreams, each in his own degree of suffering, but all exhausted circling the first terrorists, purging themselves of this world's scoria. Okay, so again, these are people with pride, and so they're giving weight,

and they have to move very slowly on this terrorist, and they're being burdened by these weights, and this is meant to relieve them of their pride and then they will have learned humility how is this different from hell what's the difference yes okay I don't understand if you were in hell it'd be the same thing right well they but they want to do it like they know why they do it they understand what they do it's the people in hell who punished, I don't think they're like, I mean, they know they're guilty, but they don't think that it's fair that they're being punished. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. Anyone else?

They are receiving this punish in the hope that one day they will reach paradise and then they know that they did something wrong and they're kind of like punishing themselves physically, but then they still have hope that one day they'll make it into like, upper tears or like make it to heaven. Yes, okay, exactly. But I don't understand why the people in hell can't be like, you know what? You just do this for 10,000 years and then we'll send you to proletary.

It's always like, no, in hell, it's for all returning. What's the logic of this? Maybe unlike those in hell, they did not do deeds that puncture the fabric of society and so discord or create societal ills that they would not be doing this forever? Yeah, we don't know that, right?

Because the condition for being in purgatory is that, one, you repent, and second, is that people pray for you, right? It doesn't say there are certain crimes that prevent you from going to purgatory. Okay, so again, this is a question for us where it seems as though the punishment is the same. So if they're not the same punishment, couldn't you have a system where in hell, if you do this for 10,000 years, you're given access to proletory? Why not do that? Yes? Because even the promise of 10,000 years would not give you a growth mindset.

So I think in this scene, they're just singing themselves into the growth mindset. So the actuality of what they're doing is purifying them. And so that if you were in hell, even if you knew that by doing this for 10,000 years, you might make it out, it wouldn't give you the growth mindset that would actually render you above. Yeah, but why? I'm actually you why, right?

Why? Because you have to do it every second with no thought of the end. You can't do it as if there's a finish line. you have to just do it as if you're doing it forever. And the mindset that you have in every second is what counts. Okay, so this is actually a really important question. If you really understand Dante, why are people in hell and why are people in puratory?

What's the difference? Yes? So I'm seeing this as like an Aristotelian golden mean. And so the example I have even though bravery is not something that I'll get you in the heaven, is the two extremes that Aristotle would see would be cowardice, but then also recklessness. And those would get you in this fictional hell. But it's a spectrum.

And so the closer you get to bravery on either end of the extremes, then you're going to end up at a point, which I don't know why, you would end up, God would say that's good enough that you get into purgatory. Yes, okay. Donnie has read a lot of Aristotle, and he would definitely agree on this idea. But that still doesn't clarify for me why, if it's the same punishment, right? Why?

What's the difference between heaven? What's the difference between hell and procuratory? Yes? Maybe people in hell, they just by reason. But in proctorary, people, they don't just always buy reason. They're just by inspiration or what, or hope or what. Okay, this is like hard, okay? But what Dante suggests, I know Donnie believes us, okay, is that people are in hell because they choose to

be there. People are in progatory because they choose to be there. It's a law of free will. Okay. Doesn't make sense to you guys. That's where the growth mindset comes from because you believe you can be better. But if you like I don't believe I can be better than I'm just better off in hell. Right. Okay. What what what why are people in progatory doing this thing because I think that by doing this thing I can be better. What but in hell you're like they, you make you make them do this. And like well, I'll keep on doing this. But it's not going to change me. It's just on punishment. Right. So it's perception where people in hell see it as their punishment but people in purgatory see it as the opportunity doesn't make sense that's a difference it's

attitude and that's this fundamental understanding Dante and how he sees the world okay let's let's let's keep on going line 16 even as we forgive all who have done us injury may you benevolent forgive and do not judge us by our word try oh sorry um line 25 this beseeching thus good penitence for us and for themselves, those shades moved on beneath their weight, like those we sometimes bear in dreams, each in his own degree of suffering,

but all exhausted, circling the first terrace, purging themselves of this world's scorer. If there they pray on our behalf, what can be said and done here on this earth for them by those whose wills are rooted in true worth. Indeed, we should help them to wash away the stains they carried from this world, so that may pure and light,

reach the starry wheels. Ah, so may justice and compassion soon burden you so that your wings may move as you desire them to and uplift you. Show us on which hand lies the shortest path to reach the stairs if there is more than one passage, then show us that which is less steep, for he who comes with me because he wears the weight of Adam's flesh as dressed, despite his ready will is slow in his ascent. These words which had been spoken by my guide were answered by still other words we heard, for though it was not clear who had replied. An answer came, Come with us to the right along the wall of rock, and you will find a pass where even one alive can climb. And where I ampeded by the stone, that since it has subdued my haughty neck, compels my

eyes to look below, then I should look at this man who's still alive and nameless to see if I recognize him and to move his pity for my burden. I was Italian, son of a great Tuscan. My father was Wigielmo Elbaudesco. I do not know if you have heard his name. The ancient blood and splendid deeds of my forefathers made me so presumptuous that, without thinking on our common mother, I scorned all men past measure, and that scorn brought me my death. The Siennese know how, as this each child in Campanaccio, I'm Umberto, and my arrogance has not harmed me alone, for it has drawn all of my kin into calamity. Until God has been satisfied,

I bear this burden here among the dead because I did not bear this load among the living. My face was lowered as I listened, and one of those souls not he had spoken, twisted himself beneath the weight that burdened them. He saw and knew me and called out to me, fixing his eyes, Amila Borisly as I, completely hunched, walked on with them.

Oh, I cried out, Are you not Odorici? Glory of Guibio, glory of that art they call illumination now in paris brother he said the page is painted by the brush of franco boulognezzes smile more brightly all the glory now is his mine but apart in truth i would have been less gracious when i lived so great was that desire for eminence which drove my heart for such pride here one pays the penalty and i not be here yet had it not been that while i still get sin i turned to him o empty glory of the powers of fear humans have briefly green and doors upon the peak unless an age of dullness follows it in painting simabu chimabooe thought he held the field and now it's jato they acclaim the former only keeps a shadowed fame so did one guido from the other rest the glory of our tongue and he perhaps is born who will chase both out of the nest worldly renown is nothing other than a breath of wind that blows now here now there and change his name when it has changed its course before a thousand years have passed a span that for eternity is the space than an eye-blink for the slowest fear in heaven would you find greater glory if you left your flesh when it was old that if your death had come before your infant words were spent all tuscany acclaimed his name the man who moved so slowly on the path before me and now they scarcely whispered

of him even in Siena, where he lorded it when they destroyed the raging mob in Florence, then as arrogant as now its prostitute. Your glory wears the color of the grass that comes and goes, the sun makes it wither for his druid from the ground, feel green and tender, and I to him, your truthful speech has filled my soul with sound humility, abating my overswollen pride. But who is he of whom you spoke now? For Venzhen Savani, he answered,

here because presumptuously he thought his grip could master all sienna. So he has gone and so he goes with no rest since his death. This is the penalty extracted from those who they're overreached. And I but if a spirit who awaits the edge

of life before repenting must unless good prayers help him stay below and not ascend here for as long as time as he had spent alive, did tell me how Salvani's entry here has been allowed. When he was living, in his greatest glory said he

sent off his own free will he set aside all shame and took his place upon the compo of Sienna there to free his friend from suffering in Charles' prison, humbling himself he trembled in each vein. I say no more. I know I speak obscurely,

but soon enough you'll find your neighbor's acts are such that what I say can be explained. This deed delivered him from those confined. Okay, so here we meet a man who did a lot of wrong, okay? But once he did some good, okay, once he helped his friend escape a prison,

and he begged his neighbors to help him free his friend, okay? So the idea here is, look, you can spend your, you could live a life of complete sin, okay? But the moment you choose to do one good act, it will be remembered and it will redeem you. Doesn't make sense. Okay? So this is extremely radical of starting to say, look, for 100 years, you could have lived a terrible life.

But if you just commit yourself to doing one good thing before you die, that's going to redeem you in the eyes of God. So there is always hope and salvation, no matter who you are, no matter what you've done. Yes? So when you ask that question prior to the reading of like what makes the same thing, what makes the same sin differentiate from hell and purgatory, the Catholic Church would say repent at your death. And are you saying that Dante says that works are what can get you into purgatory and not just it seems like I could sin, sin, sin, and sincerely repent at my death and make it into purgatory. would be the Catholic Church's interpretation. Right. The formula isn't that simple.

There are lots of, like, conditions, okay? But the way to understand this is, the conditions to get into purgatory are a lot more flexible than the conditions get into hell. If that makes sense, right? If you do something really, really bad, like murder your guess,

that condemns you to hell automatically. But the criteria, conditions for purgatory are much more wide, much more flexible than people imagine. So it's possible you repent. It's possible you were murdered accidentally. You were murdered and you didn't have time to repent. It's possible that you did one good work and that helped a lot of people.

Okay. So you do understand there's a lot of different things you can do to get into purgatory. And the reason why is once you're in proletary, you have to show total commitment. Okay. All right. So as the angel says, it's easy to get in. But once you're in, you're in, you have to work really, really hard. Okay?

If you want to commit yourself to working hard for eternity, then you'll come in, okay? Because the thing about purgatory that's very upsetting for a lot of people is, it's a really long time, right? It could be 10,000 years. It could be 10 million years. Okay. And some people are like, screw that. I'll spend time in hell.

It sounds a lot easier, right? Okay. All right. Let's go to count of 12. Council 12. X oxen yoked, proceed of breath, so I moved with the burdened soul as long as my kind pedagogue allowed me to. But when he said, leave him behind and go ahead, for here it's fitting that with wings and

oars, each urge his boat along with all his force. I drew my body up again erect, the stands most suitable to man. And yet the thoughts I thought were still submissive bent. Okay, so during his time in the terrace of humility, he lowered himself to develop humility. Does that make sense? Because remember, before he came here, he became really famous because of a shadow, and he was proud. And to redeeming himself, he held himself low. Okay?

All right, keep on going. Line 10. Now I was on my way, and willingly I followed in my teacher's steps, and we together showed what beat we could command. He said to me, look downward, for the way we'll offer you some solace if you pay attention to the pavement at your feet. As on the lids of pavement tombs, there are stone effigies of what the buried were before, so that the dead may be remembered. And there, when memory inciting only the pious, has renewed their mourning, men are often led to shed their tears again. So did I see, but carved more skillfully with greater sense of

likeness, effigies on all the path protruding from the mountain. I saw to one side of the path, one who had been created nobler than all other beings, falling lightning like from heaven. I saw upon the other side, Rereus transvixed by the celestial shaft. He lay ponderous on the cold in fatal cold. I saw them braes, I saw Mars and Pallas, still armed as they surrounded Joe their father gazing upon the giant scattered limbs. I saw the wildered Nimrod at the the foot of his labor, great labor, watching him were those of Shiner, who had shared his arrogance. O Niobe, what tears deflected in me when, on that path, I saw your effigy among your slaughtered children seven and seven. Oh, Saul, you were portrayed there as one who had died on his own sword,

upon Goboa, which never after knew the rain, the dew. Oh, mad, arachny, I saw you already half-spider, wretched on the ragged remnants of work. that you had brought to your own hurt. O Rehaboam, you whose effigy seems not to menace there, and yet you flee by chariot, terrified, though none pursues. It also showed that pavement of hard stone,

how much Elkhmeon made his mother pay, the cost of the ill-omened ornament. It showed the children of Santa Cherub, as they assailed their father in the temple, then left him dead behind them as they fled. It showed the slaughter and the devastation wrought by Tomerries, when she taunted Cyrus.

You thirsted after blood. With blood, I fill you. It showed the route of the Assyrian, sent reeling after Holophony's death. It also showed his body what was left. I saw Troy turned to caverns and to ashes. O Ilium, your effigy and stone. It showed you there so squalid, so cast down.

What master of the brush or of the stylus had there portrayed such masses, such outlines as would astonish all discerning minds. The dead seemed dead, and the alive alive, I saw had bent, treading those effigies as long, as well as those who'd seen those scenes directly. Now, Sons of Eve persist in arrogance, in haughty stands do you let your eyes bend, lest you be forced to see your evil path. We now had circled more of the mountain, and much more of the sun's course, have been crossed than I, my mind absorbed, had gauged, when he who always looked ahead insistently as he advanced to begin, lift up your eyes. It's time to set these images aside.

See there are an angel hurrying to meet us and also see the sixth of the handmaidens returning from her service to the day. Adorn your face and acts with reverence. That he be pleased to send us higher. Remember today will never know another dawn. Okay, stop. Okay, all right. So they passed through the terrorists of pride to learn humility. now they have entered new terrorists

and of course there's more artwork and what is Donda's emotional reaction to this artwork? What's he doing? When he sees his artwork, what is his response? He seems quite shocked and sad. What's he doing literally?

Remembering and like imagining. What's the word? What is his action? He's sad. What is his action? What does the text say? What's he literally doing right now as he's watching this artwork? Looking down, looking at his feet.

No, what, what is he literally doing right now? What is he doing right now as he's watching his artwork? As he's watching as he's looking at this artwork, how is he feeling? What is he doing? Yes? I'd say grieving. He's crying. Yeah, right?

It literally says he's crying, okay? So now I want to talk about tragedy, okay? Because things he saw this artwork, they are tragic. There's tragedy in everything that he's seen, right? So I want to discuss tragedy and why what crying does. Okay? Now, think of a movie you've seen that made you cry. Think about a theater that made you cry.

Think about an artwork that made you cry, a song that made you cry, okay? But just think of something that made you cry. All right. What does crying do? Yeah, it's Cartharsis, right? Okay, Cartharsis. Does everyone know what Cartharsis means? What is Cartharsis? Purifying to release, releasing your tears. Yeah, it's purging, you understand? Cartharsis literally means purging. Basically, throw up and release your emotions, okay? That's what crying is. You're purging yourself. Okay, so why would that be What would that be What would that lead to virtue? Yes?

I guess you can start to feel all over your body Their pain of other people Yeah, exactly Who have also felt tragedy Because like what leads to the crying is the empathy, right? That is what leads to the crying Because you see the pain in others Right?

if you didn't see the pain in others you would be laughing like ha ha ha ha you know he got his head chopped off okay so it's the empathy that allows you to cry okay and so why do empathy what does the empathy come from i think imagination and emulation from evolution i think so it starts with imagining the position of another person or a situation and then trying to feel that within yourself, but a lot of the time it's too complicated for you to feel, so you just try and feel the sadness that you can see another person. And it's to comfort people by showing that you understand and that their pain is enough to move you beyond your normal state.

So are you saying that it is an adaptation of evolution? Yes. Okay. Then where is empathy located in our brains then? I think there are certain regions that activate in a mother's brain when her baby is crying. And I think that crying is like... Has anyone said psychology? Where, where, where, how do our brains actually achieve empathy?

Do you guys know? Or we can call a cortex, the cortex. Okay, let's let's go. Yes. We hear the term is mirror neurons. Yeah, let's Google mirror neurons. And like, I want to see if this is actually true, okay? Do mirror neuronal, are meron neurons responsible for empathy?

Okay, are they responsible empathy? Like, I had sometimes problems growing up and like, I knew people that had problems like when sometimes I see people crying, I would laugh because I didn't know how to properly emulate it. Like there's an interview with Messi where the interview is so overwrought with emotion. interviewing him because it's his live stream and message just goes starts laughing okay because right uh yes so there's a psychological experiment where they take a a two-year-old and they put like a i don't know ball in a drawer and then the parent comes in and the parent doesn't know that the ball's in the drawer or something like this um well i'm screen this up but the way that this works is like if you're under two years old then you can empathize oh my

parent doesn't have that information that falls in the door and if you're over two years old then you can say oh my parent doesn't know I need to inform them and and so two years old is when we get empathy according to psychologists okay so two years old is when we develop the mirror neurons right okay all right I'm not convinced mirror mirror neurons actually exist it's a theory but do we evidence that it actually exists. What does Google say? Do mirror neurons actually exist?

It's a theory, okay? We don't even know how this works. Yes? I am totally on your side. I believe that empathy is beyond one mind, and it's definitely a divine emotion. Right. Right. And so what would Donnie say?

What is empathy? But how do we connect to God? Imagine. Connect to God by connecting to others among you, your peers, their pain. But what does that? Love, compassion for another person. Okay, so the idea is there's a spark, right? And so empathy, how it works is the two sparks connect together.

Doesn't make sense. Okay? So that's why you cry, because when you see another spark in pain, your spark also feels pain and you cry. pain and you cry. Okay. So, um, why would that lead to virtue? Yes? Because if you can connect to another person's pain and sorrow, then, um, it makes you not want to commit that same sin that could inflict pain on other people. So you have to be a better person so that you don't cause this kind of suffering in the world. That's right. That's right. That's right. So that's the idea here where if you where a tragedy is watched by a group of people and the fact that they cry together connects them together and that builds community. Okay. All right. Okay. So let's let's keep on going.

But you can see how complex in like comedy is, right? Because it's a treatise on everything. Philosophy, religion, art, yes? Yeah, it also kind of makes me think about Lazarus' death and Jesus went and cried at his finery. It's like, oh, if you could have told me, you know, I'll come earlier, but Jesus cried a lot at the funeral, even though 10 minutes later he resurrected Lazarus anyways. So people are like, well, what the heck with the crying if you could just resurrect him from, you know? Are you pretending? Is this theater, you know? But Jesus kind of explains, you know, that he needs to sympathize with Mary and Madeline on the loss of Lazarus, even though he's going to resurrect him 10 minutes later. Yes, because it's a human reaction, right?

Yeah. It's something you can control. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yes. Let's keep on going. Line 85. I was so used to his insistent warnings against the loss of time concerning that his words to me could hardly be obscure. That handsome creature came toward us. His clothes were white and in his aspect he seemed like the trembling star that rises in the morning. He opened wide his arms and spread his wings. He said, approach. The steps are closed at hand. From this point on one can climb.

easily. His invitations answered by so few, oh humankind, born for the upward flight. Why are you driven back by wind so slight? He led us to a cleft within the rock, and then he struck my forehead with his wing. That done, he promised me saved journeying. As on the right, when one is sensed the hill where over-revember... So just to clarify, the angel strikes dying on the forehead to wipe him of a pee, do you understand? So each time he clears a terrorist, a pee is wiped off, a piquata sin is wiped off. Keep on going. As on the right, when one ascends the hill

where over Rubiconti's bridge, there stands the church that dominates the well-ruled city. The daring slope of the ascent is broken by steps that were constructed in an age when record books and measures could be trusted. So was the slope that plummet's there so deeply down from the other ring made easier,

but on this side of that high rock encroaches. While we began to move in that direction, Bete a Popura's spiritu was sung. So sweetly it could not be told in words. How different were these entryways from those of hell? For here it is with song when enters down there. It is with savage lamentations. Now we ascended by the sacred stairs,

but I seemed to be much more light than I had been before along the level terrace. At this I asked, Master, tell me what heavy weight has been lifted from me so that I am going notice almost no fatigue. He answered. when the peas that still remain upon your brow now almost all are faint

have been completely like this pea erased your feet will be so mastered by goodwill that they not only will not feel travail but will delight when they're urged uphill okay so as more sins are parts from your system you will literally be lighter okay you'll feel lighter and you'll be lighter so you'll move faster

and keep on going and one two seven then I behave like those who made their way with something on their head of which they're not aware, till other signs make them suspicious, at which the hand helps them to ascertain it seeks and finds and touches and provides the services that site cannot supply. So with my right hands outspread fingers, I found just six of the letters once inscribed by him who holds the keys upon my forehead, and as he watched me do this, my guide's mind. Okay, count two 13 now.

We now had reached the summit of the stairs where once again the mountain whose ascent delivers man from sin has been indented. There, just as in the case of the first terrace, a second terrace runs around the slope, except that it described the sharper arc. No effigy is there and no outline. The bank is visible, the naked path, only the livid color of raw rock. If we wait here in order to inquire those who pass, the poet said, I fear our choice of path may be delayed too long. then he fixed his eyes upon the sun, letting his right side serve to guide his movement. He wheeled his left around and changed direction. O gentle light, through trust in which I enter on this new path, may you conduct us here,

he said, for men need guidance in this place. You warm the world and you illuminate. Unless a higher power urges elsewhere, your race must always be the guides that lead. We had already journeyed there as far, as we should reckon here to be a mile, and done it in brief time, our will with ease. when we heard spirits as they flew toward us though they could not be seen spirits pronouncing courteous invitations to love's table the first voice that flew by called out aloud vinum non abent and behind us that same voice reiterated its example and as that voice drew farther off before it faded finally another cried i am arresty it too did not stop what voices are these father were my words and as i asked him this i heard a third voice saying love those by whom you have been hurt and my good master said the sin of envy is scourged within the circle thus the chords that form the scourging lash are applied by love the sounds of punished envy envy curved are different if i judge right you'll hear those sounds before we reach the path of pardon but let your eyes be fixed attentively and through the air you'll see people see it before us all of them on the stone

terrace. I opened, wider than before, my eyes. I looked ahead of me, and I saw shades with clothes that shared their color with the rocks. And once we'd moved a little farther on, I heard the cry of, Mary, pray for us, and then heard Michael, Peter, and all saints. I think no man now walks upon the earth who so hard that he would not have been pierced by compassion by what I saw next. For when I had drawn close enough to see clearly the way they paid their penalty the force of grief-pressed tears out of my eyes. These souls, it seemed, were cloaked in coarse haircloth, another shoulders served each shade as prop, and all of them were bolstered by the rocks. So did the blind who have to beg appear on pardoned days to plead for what they need,

each bending his head back and toward the other. That all who watch feel quickly, pity's touch, not only through the words that would entreat, but through the sight which can no less as beseech and just as to the blind no sun appears so to the shades of whom i now speak here the light of heaven would not give itself for iron wire pierces and sows up the lids of all those shades as untamed hawks are handled lest to rest lest to restless they fly off it seemed to me a gross discourtesy for me going to see and not be seen therefore i turned to my wise counsellor he knew quite well what i though mute had meant and thus he did not wait for my request but said speak and be brief and to the point Virgil was to my right along the outside nearer the terrace edge no parapet was there to keep a man from falling up and to my other side were the devout shades through their eyes sewn so atrociously the spirits forced the tears that bathed their cheeks

I turned to them and you who can be certain I then began of seeing that highlight which is the only object of your longing may in your unconscious all impurities soon be dissolved by grace, so that the stream of memory flow through it limpidly. Tell me, for I shall welcome such dear words. If any soul among you is Italian, if I know that, then I perhaps can help him. My brother, each of us is citizen of one true city, what you meant to say was one who lived in Italy as pilgrim. My hearing placed the point from which this answer had come somewhat ahead of me. Therefore I made myself heard farther on, moving. i saw one shade among the rest who looked expectant and if any should ask how its chin was lifted as a blind man is spirit i said who have subdued yourself that you may climb if it is you who answered then let me know by your place or name know you by your place or name

i was a siennese she answered and with others here i mend my wicked life weeping to him that he grant us himself i was not sapient though i was called sapia and I rejoiced far more at others' hurts than my own good fortune. Unless you should think I have deceived you, cure and judge if I was not, as I have told you, Matt, when my year's arc had reached its downward part, my fellow citizens were close to Kole, where they joined battle with their enemies, and I prayed God for that which he had willed. There they were routed, beaten. They were reeling along the bitter path of flight and seeing that chase,

I felt incomparable joy, so that I looked at my daring face and cried to God. Now I fear you no more, so did the blackbird after brief fair weather. I looked for peace with God at life's end. The penalty I owe for sin would not be lessened now, but I penitence had not one who was sorrowing for me because of charity in him. Pierre Petnao remembered me in his devout petitions. But who are you, who question our condition as you move on, whose eyes, if I judge right, have not been sown who uses breath to speak my eyes i said will be denied me here but only briefly the offence of envy was not committed often by their gaze i fear much more the punishment below my soul is anxious in suspense already i feel the heavy weights of the first terrace

and she who then let you appear among us if you believe you will return below and i he who is with me and is silent i am alive and therefore chosen spirit If you would have me move my mortal steps on your behalf beyond, ask me for that. Oh, this, she answered, is so strange a thing to hear. The sign is clear you have God's love. Thus help me sometimes with your prayers. I ask a few by that which you desire most, if you should ever tread the Tuscan earth to see my name restored among my kin. You'll seem them among those vain ones who have put their trust in telemonite.

Their loss and hope will be more than Diana caused, but there the admirals will lose the most. Okay, so why is it that in the terrorists of envy, their punishment is their eyes are shut, shown shut? What would that be the case? So they don't constantly look at others and compare themselves to others? Right. Yes. And so once their eyes are shut, are sewn shut,

what effect does it have? them yes self and you work on yourself you're no longer comparing yourself to others and you work on yourself to make yourself better that's right and not because i want to be better than the other guy next to me that's right exactly okay all right um and how would be different in hell what would the punishment in hell be you have to keep looking at others okay and why would that be punishing because you have to have to Well, well, because in hell you're not really reflecting, so you still don't look at yourself and try to better yourself, but you feel more jealousy to other people. You're forced to look at other people. I'm trying to figure out how visually that works, right? Yes?

I think in hell, it would just like in the pride circle, be a mindset difference. So in hell, everyone believe that. everybody else could see and they were lying to them and somehow they were the ones that couldn't see and that would be the ultimate envy because they could never be able to check yeah it was the same punishment guys okay but as you point out the attitude would be different right where if you're not if you're not if you can't see another person it drives you insane it makes you believe that that person is able to see i can't see you understand the logic here right here because these people have a growth mindset because they are on the path to redemption, they recognize that I should take the time to focus inward. But in hell, they'd be like, they're still stuck focusing on other people.

If you can't, they can't look at other people. It drives them insane because they have to imagine that their lives are so much better than my life, right? It's the ultimate hell in a way. It's the ultimate hell, right? Okay. So it's really interesting to think about. But yeah, the punishments would be the same. But the way that the person reacts to the punishment would be completely different.

Okay? All right. Let's go on to 14, please. Canto 14. Who is this man who, although death has yet to grant him flight, can circle around our mountain and can at will open and shut his eyes? I don't know who he is, but I do know he's not alone. You're closer.

Question him and greet him gently so that he replies. So are two spirits leaning toward each other, discussing me along my right hand side. Then they bent back their heads to speak to me, and one began, O soul, who is still enclosed within the body, make your way toward heaven, may you through love console us, tell us who you are from where you come. The grace that you've received, a thing that's never come to pass before, has caused as much astonishment. And I, through central Tuscany, there spread the little stream forthborn in Feltarona. 100 miles can't fill the course at need. I bring this body from that river's banks to tell you who I am would be to speak in vain.

My name has not yet gained much fame. If, with my understanding, I have seized your meaning properly, replied to me. The one who'd spoken first, you mean the Arno. The other said to him, why did he hide that river's name, even as one would do in hiding something horrible from view? The shade to him this question was addressed repaid with this. I do not know, but it is right for such a valley's name to perish, for from its source, at which the rugged chain from which Polaris were cut off surpasses most other places with its massive mountains, until its end point where it offers back those waters that evaporating sky through from the sea that streams may be supplied.

Virtue is seen as serpent, and all flee from it as it were an enemy, either because the sight is ill-starred or their evil custom goats them so. Therefore, the nature of that squalid valley people has changed, as if they were in Circe's pasture, That river starts with miserable course among foul hogs, more fit for acorns than food device to serve the needs of man. Then, as that stream descends, it comes on curse that, though their forces feeble, snap and snarl, scornful of them, it swerves its snout away, and downward it flows on, and when that ditch ill-fated and a curse it grows wider, it finds more and more the dogs becoming wolves. descending then through many dark ravines, it comes on foxes so full of deceit. There's no trap that they cannot defeat. No, will I keep from speech because my comrade hears me, and it will serve you too to keep in mind what prophecy reveals to me.

I see your grandson. He's become a hunter of wolves along the bank of the fierce river, and he strikes every one of them with terror. He sells their flesh while they're still alive, then like an ancient beast he turns to slaughter depriving many of life himself of honor. Bloody he comes out from the wood he thundered, leaving it such that in a thousand years it will not be the force than it was. Just as the face of one who has heard word of pain

and injury becomes perturbed, no matter from what side that minister, so did I see that other soul who turned to listen, growing anxious and ejected when he had taken in his comrade's words. The speech of one, the aspect of the other, had made me need to know their names, and I both queried and besieged

at the same time at which the spirit who had spoken first to me began again. You'd have me do for you that which to me you have refused, but since God would and you have his grace glow so brightly, I shall not be miserly, know therefore that I was Guido del Dukha. My blood was so afire with envy that when I had seen a man becoming happy, the lividness in me was plain to see. From what I've sown, this is the straw irate, o humankind why do you set your hearts there when our sharing cannot have a part this is rinieri this is he the glory the honor of the house of calboli but no one has inherited his worth

it's not his kinelow between the poe and the mountains and the reno and the coast who have lost the truth's grave good and lost the good of gentle living too those lands are full of poison stump by now however much one were to cultivate it is too late where is good lizio arigo marianardi pierre travisaro guido de campiniia o romanioli's return to basridi when will a faber flourish in bologna when in fenza of bernardine de fosco the noble offshoot of a humble plant don't wonder tuscan if i weep when i remember uglino dazzo one who lived among us and guido de Guido de Prata, the house of Travisara, of Anastagi, both houses without heirs, and Federico Tinioso and his gracious company. The ladies and the knights, labors and leisure to which we once were urged by courtesy and love, where hearts now holds perversity. Okay, sorry, we'll stop, because we're running out of time.

But I'll ask you one more question, and then we'll end today. What does it mean to say, to say, why do you set your heart? there where our sharing cannot have a part. Someone interpret what this means and then we'll end the session. Yes. Humans are obsessed with zero-sum games. Exactly. Okay. But explain to everyone else what that's what this means.

So it means your actions. If you are operating in a sphere where there is a limited amount of resources, there has to be winners and losers. Yes. And there cannot be anything else. Yes. And people really like this because you feel like your actions are meaningful and every gain feels like it matters so much more because you really know. It's not that you're constantly thinking about the loss of another person, but you are aware of it.

And you know that everything you gain is something that someone else had to lose. Exactly. Yeah. So what this saying is we're materialistic and all we care about is material accumulation. And so it becomes a zero-sum game, right? Because if I have this, you can't have that. Right? So what is the solution then? How do we get out of this zero-sum game? Is there a solution?

Yes? Quality so that you can have a win-win situation. And what is a win-win situation? Try to co-create something instead, making the cake bigger, instead of cutting of the cake. What is a win-win scenario for? humanity yes the solution um to which we once were urged by courtesy and love where hearts our hosts perversity so love yeah yeah but but what what does it mean in practice

well instead of trying to wear down others you help them and you have empathy for them and instead of trying to gain everything for yourself you try to have like yeah okay so so be generous right right if you need help I'll help you and then what are you gonna do you'll help others and then they'll help others as well right so rather than a zero-sum game where there's only finite resources generosity creates infinite love okay does that make sense all right okay um what will end uh here and then we'll start with cantile 15 tomorrow and we'll try to do at least 10 possibly more than that and they'll give us room and space for the final day to talk more in depth about Dante and how he sees our world okay um also I want

at the last day to give people an opportunity to talk about your personal experience with Dante I think that's very very important okay so if possible for the next two days think about what it's been like to read Dante and how you as a person have changed and also think about where you think in the future you'll go from here okay has this been a life transforming experience for you has it changed the trajectory of your life and you know there's no there's no right or wrong you don't have to answer but i think that everyone would appreciate it if you could share your emotional journey with dante and because we have such a diverse crowd of people i think everyone's journey will be different, okay? So I think we will all appreciate that. But any questions before

we conclude today? Okay, great. So I will see, yes, one question, yes. So I noticed that it took nine cantos for Dente to reach the gate of purgatory, but it only took three cantos to reach the gate of hell. So I wonder why it's different. Do you have a theory? Yes? I've thought about this. I think there's more, there's more sins that aren't, like all the betrayal of,

against country and family and stuff like this, that don't end up at purgatory. Okay. Yes. So at what kind of do they enter this? You can actually check it. What kind of do, what kind of in front of do you think they start to enter disc?

To me? We'll check this, okay? Can you go to Inferno 9 and see what happens in Inferno 9, or Inferno 10, I think. I can't remember which it is, okay? Let's figure out where they are Inferno 9 first. So Inferno 9, they are outside the gates of disk. Inferno 10 is when they enter disk. So the same thing, do you understand?

Because in Inferno, there's one additional cantal for the introduction. So all three are 33 cantoes. and so what's happening is this is where hell proper is and then the other circles they're kind of like not that serious do you understand and any part and like before they enter progatory that they go for anti-pulatory okay so so so symmetrical okay all right thanks for the question okay i'll see everyone tomorrow okay