Predictive History - The Story of "Civilization", "Secret History", "Game Theory" and more - Dante #6: Hell Cantos 3-9

Episode Date: August 22, 2026

Watch on YouTube: https://link-to-youtube.s.gy/dante06

Okay, good morning, welcome back. Any outstanding issues from yesterday or any questions you have so far? Anyone? Okay, sure. I was pondering the issue of why don't we confront our anger these types of emotions directly and head-on. I was reminded that sometimes you need to go all the way down to be able to get back up.

And to myself, at least, and this is strictly personal, I think part of going to Inferno is also to see kind of the full length and consequence of all these emotions, Because just like the mirror of the plane you talked about yesterday, sometimes when you have a negative emotional reaction to something, it's because there's something in you that reacts to that. And so I think sometimes you don't go tackle some problem head on,

but you need to kind of dive deep into it, really, really deep, in order to emerge from the other side. That's right. Thank you so much. Yes? So the whole journey into helping these beings, like is it reasonable to assume that Dr. the writer was inspired by the being of Orpheus deciding to help his lover? Yeah, exactly.

Yes, thank you. Yes, exactly. So Dante is trying to create a Renaissance, right? He's trying to delve deep into the memory of what, civilization, into human civilization, and recall all these great traditions that have been lost over time. Not only Orpheus, but also Dionysius, basically the great legends of the Greek tradition. And again, most of these things are lost. But even though the memory has been lost, the feeling is still there.

So he's trying to conjure up this nostalgia. Exactly. Yes, Orthias is very important for Dante. Okay, any more comments? Okay, so with regards to yesterday, I want to make two clarifications. So yesterday I was asked a question. I said that Mary's child, if she had a child before Jesus, and if this child were to die as an infant,

then this child would be next to God. And I want to explain my logic here, because what Donnie is trying to convey, and this is a really important thing you must understand about Dante is he's saying that God's justice is perfect, meaning that with enough love and with enough imagination, you can reason out the logic of everything that God does, and it'll be convincing and understandable to everyone around you, okay?

And so the logic is this. Mary is the queen of heaven, and she is the queen of heaven because she is the best of us. She is the person who is able to give birth to a god, Jesus. And she is so perfect, we have to assume that her mother is perfect as well, or her mother is also very virtuous. And that's why Anna, the mother, is also in heaven and in the highest spear. next to God. So if we just work out the logic, if Anna is virtuous,

the most virtuous, which allows for Mary to be even more virtuous, to perfect in virtue, then we're going to assume that what a child Mary has will also be extremely virtuous, given the fact that the child is born of Mary,

but also given the fact that Mary will parent this child, right? And now, so it is entirely possible for the child to school this up, you know, just become an adult and just do a lot of bad things. That's possible. But if the child dies as an infant, then you have to assume that this child will be a virtuous person as well and will deserve a seat next to God. You have to make that assumption according to this logic. So if the child dies as an infant, then God in his infinite wisdom, in his perfect justice will assign this infant a seat next to him.

Okay? Does that make sense logically? Again, everything has to explain logically, and you can actually reason this out. All right. This is important because... Yeah, go ahead. No, but this is regarding to the unborn child, right, prematurely dying before they are able to reason. I feel like Dante bringing this up towards the end.

as we reached kind of like the pinnacle of heaven this is the pinnacle of heaven yeah as we are in the pinnacle of heaven i think dante is i i i wouldn't call it humility but dante is admitting that there are unknown unknowns primarily around the question of free will because free will consciousness until today it's not a figured out subject right and and and and free will as we talked about uh with regard to god god is trying god gives us free will but god probably doesn't even wasn't the one who created free will that means free will transcend it might be something beyond it i don't know it's further beyond the beyond god's reason it either because because if you're trying to generate something like we've discussed

God wants to, it's probably not something that you can create on your own. It's like energy, right? The reason why we mind energy, that we need energy is because it's not something that we can try to come up from scratch. Right, okay. Yeah, so I

think what I agree is like there are no absolutes in the universe. There are a lot of things that are special cases. And in these special cases, you have to really use your love and imagination to figure these special cases out. In the infant case is, again, the hardest theological problem in the universe.

So this is to address the issue. Why would Mary's child be granted access to the imperial? The other issue that we discussed last class is, why would Virgil agree to being done? Dante's guide and I was a bit being in tongue-in-cheek but I said well it's because Beatrice is really hard and there's some truth of that but it's not it's never that complicated it's never that simple right because you actually read the passage what Beatrice said to Virgil is that if you were to do this then God will reward you God knows about this we have a special permission from God to help Dante even though he's still not dead, ascend to heaven. You will guide him from hell to purgatory, and then I'll pick him up in progatory,

and then I will take him to heaven, okay? And so Virgil has an opportunity to enter paradise. But we know for a fact he doesn't. He's not in paradise. So this creates a question for us. How is it that Virgil is granted access to paradise? Because all they do is guide Dante. We know that Donde is access paradise, so Virgil succeeds in this mission.

And we know that God has already made Virgil this promise. You help Dante reach paradise, and you went to paradise as well. But Virgil is not in paradise. So this creates a mystery for us. And that's why I wanted to read it in this order, because you recognize that the mystery is something about Virgil, okay, that does not allow him to access paradise. So why couldn't he access paradise, given the logic of this class so far? Yes?

So this is something I've been curious since the first day, but since you talked about Virgil not being able to access paradise, this kind of brought this up to me. So God is love, God is light, and you are a measly teacup. Is it possible for the teacup? It's like the sign of it. It's like the sun, like the sun's race nourish us and help us, but too much time out in the sun and we start to blister and we start to get sunburn. Is it possible for some people knowing the nature of angels to purposefully, to voluntarily turn away from God to live in the shade? So look, the answer to the question, why did Virgil not into paradise? The answer is he did not want to. He chose not to go to paradise. He chose not to go to paradise. He chose to. stay in hell and there's something really important to appreciate if you are to

understand the ultimate message of the divine comedy okay all right so let me provide some background before we start so the thing that Dante and Virgil both understand is that poetry is what gives birth to civilization Poetry is what teaches people how to think, how to feel, and how to imagine. About poetry, there can be no civilization. The classic example of this is Homer. So Homer, which we will not read, and by the way, this is the really important for fear I appreciate it.

Dante did not read Homer. You don't have access to the Iliad and the Odyssey because in this world they spoke Latin, and Homer is written in Greek, okay? So he couldn't actually read Homer, and it was very hard to access a Homer manuscript at this time. But Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. And this will give rise to probably the greatest civilization

in human history, the Greek civilization, okay? Athens. In classical Athens, from about 450 to 50 to 50. 350 BCE will basically create the framework for Western civilization. This is a time of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Facilities, Herodotus, basically everyone. And a lot of things that were taught back then, we still teach. If you go back to biology class back at this time,

it would not be that different from biology class today. Okay, it's pretty amazing to think about. Well, then what happened is that Alexander, the Great, will then conquer the world, basically Persia, which was most of the world at this time. And he will take Greek civilization as far as India. Now, Exxander Great is interesting because he's really the first great world conqueror in history. And there's a lot of debate as to how Alexander was able to accomplish this. But the main reason is, and I know this is hard for you guys to appreciate, but no one before him wanted to do this. Okay?

Let's think about this logically. Before war was about extortion, right? Either you give me land or you give me money or you give me hostages or I will come and invade you. So it's basically an extortion racket. So when Alexander was fighting in Persia, basically the person said to him, we'll give you half the act. empire, okay, like half the empire, which is a lot of land. We'll give you like a trillion dollars, but don't invade us. And usually this was enough to buy peace, right?

But Alexander was like, I don't want your money. I don't want your land. I don't even want your throne. I want glory. And again, before, no one. Nobody who was king, nobody had an army, would think like this. Because you have an army to feed, they want women, they want land, they want riches. And you would have to appease your army, right?

But Alexander is like, no, all I want is growing. I want to be remembered forever as the world's greatest conqueror. So I don't want any of this. And so where did you get this idea? And the answer is the iliad. Homer, Achilles, right? If you read the Iliad, Achilles is very clear. He's like, I am in the beach of Troy.

I know I will die here in a couple of years. I know that because I was giving this prophecy. I don't care because I was told that by coming to Troy, I will be remembered as the greatest warrior in human history. Okay, that's what I want. I want the glory. And so that's why Alexander did what he did. And this, and he was able to bring Greek civilization as far as India.

Okay? And so what is the basis of Greek civilization? To understand Greek civilization, you do understand two ideas. Okay, these two ideas are the basis of Greek civilization. They are Eritay and Eudaimonia. Erite means excellent. Okay? And the idea of Erité is what matters is to stand out from the crowd. What matters is to demonstrate your excellence to the world. You can do that by two ways. You can do that one on a battlefield by being a great hero in which people will celebrate you and sing songs about you like Achilles, right? I mean great war in the battlefield. But another way of doing it is to be a great speech maker to stand in the front of your peer. your colleagues and give a speech that rouses them to action that convinces them to do good

that sways them to your opinion okay so these are two main ways in which you do that either from speech-making or for war fighting okay war fighting the exemplar is Achilles speech-making the exemplar is Odysseus okay so these are the two main ideas undergirding Greek civilization and Greek civilization because of these two ideas, is able to become the great civilization in history because everyone's trying to be the best. Everyone's trying to be, to transform the world, okay? Just as what Dante told us, right? To live a life of faith, hope, and love.

Well, at this time, they were trying to live a life of Erette and Eudaimonia. Basically the same thing. And this is what made Greek civilization so compelling, which allowed Greek civilization to spread around the world. Then what happened, of course, is the rise of Rome. And the Romans were different. The Romans became the greatest empire in the world because they focused only on war. All they cared about was defeating their enemies. They were able to do that because of the focus on the idea of piety.

loyalty obedience to the fathers for the senators the to the history of Rome and to the gods okay so this is a very different conception of the world and but the problem of course is that once a woman's encounter Greek civilization like wow um christ civilization is so much more sophisticated so much more culture than our civilization and they knew that because of homework because they learned Greek they read the Iliate, they read the Odyssey and they and they were like this is what civilization should be about. This is beautiful. They memorized the Iliate in the Odyssey as part of their education and it became to act out Greek civilization. And so the leaders of Rome at this time, mainly Augustus Caesar, the emperor, the first emperor of Rome, the about the son of Julius Caesar, he recognized that over time Roman civilization, would be conquered by Greek civilization.

Territorially, militarily, the Romans have conquered the Greeks. But over time, culturally, the Greeks will conquer the Romans. So what do you do about this? What you have to do is confront Homer directly. You need a new poet. You need a new epic poem in order to replace Homer. And that, of course, is Virgil's Imiad. Okay, so Augusta Caesar sponsored Virgil's writing of the Ineat.

In fact, they wrote it together, okay? Because whenever Virgil finished a particular part, he went to Augusta Caesar, and Augusta Caesar, I think you should do this, and I think you should do that, okay? But it was a co-quation process. And we were read the India together because we have to in order to fully appreciate Dante. And so with the Indianiad, with Homer, love was at the center of civilization. Now with Rome, it is piety or obedience that gives rise to civilization. Obedience is the main organizing principle of civilization.

And this becomes the framework also for the Catholic Church, right? Paul and Augustine will work together across centuries to create the theoretical framework for the Catholic Church. And basically, you create obedience by instilling fear in people. And so Europe descends in the dark ages because fear becomes the main emotion at this time. Okay, people are focused on not doing anything wrong so they can go to heaven. That limits their creativity. And Dante recognizes this, and so what he's going to do is even without having read Homer, okay? He is going to resurrect Homer and create the divine comedy.

Okay. But the challenge for Dante is much more greater than for Homer. Homework could come and at this time, this is the Greek Dark Ages, there's really no central authority. They would, like a lot of the civilization was destroyed in the Bronze Age collapse. So it's a blank slate, okay? So he could come and he could recite his poetry and people would be inspired by it. He had no opposition. Dante is different.

Dante has to fight an empire, which has to have a church, as well as a god, which is Virgil, okay? So what you want to do ideally is basically construct your cosmology, okay, which is paradise, right? We've already read Dante cosmology in paradise. We now know exactly what he thinks. Then what you need to do is go convince people, right? You convince you engage in debate and then you hopefully spread. The problem of course is you can't do that at the time in history. The Catholic Church is dominant.

So you can't actually spread what you believe. You can't actually debate people. So the divine comedy has been constructed in a way so that Darnik can spread his cosmology. but in a way that people don't know he's doing it, and in a way that convinces people. All right? So what he has to do is basically agree with Virgil, make Virgil the hero of the divine comedy.

Then he has to subvert Virgil, okay? I'm made of subversion, show to us that maybe Virgil is not God. Maybe he's fallible, maybe he's just wrong. And then that will then allow him to now promote his cosmology. And that's why the divine common is constructed in the way that it is. He starts it with hell, which celebrates Virgil. He goes to purgatory in which a lot of ideas of Virgil are being subverted. And then now we can ascend to Paradise, which then allows third.

to reveal to all of us his cosmology. Okay, does that make sense? Okay, now it sounds very simple, but we actually do this in practice, you can appreciate how hard it is to do, right? Because ideally, you want to first create your cosmology, then figure out how to convince other people, but Dante has to start the other way around, okay?

Meaning in his mind he already needs to figure out the entire cosmos before he writes anything down And that's what he that's what he does so Having read the divine comedy I can tell you that it's a divine comment that convinced me there must be a god Before I got the divine comedy four years ago. I was an atheist. I was up to convince the world the universe is emergent it's met It's not realistic. It's all random. There is no God. There can't be a God. But having started a divine harmony, it is impossible

for me to explain how Dante was able to do this if he did not have divine inspiration. It was not guided by the Holy Spirit. If there was not the universe showing him the path. Because not only

you have to consider this way, but you have to maintain consistency throughout the process, meaning you have to have to like drop basically Easter eggs from the very beginning showing that virtue is compromised okay otherwise it won't work that way yes I agree that the divine comedy is a great work however I don't think it's a divine work like I don't think its existence proves the existence of God because this is what a world builder does the Easter eggs and the structure you're talking about this is very similar to

what modern world builders do they establish a framework first and then they write about their world. So if you're saying that this is a great book, I agree, but if you're saying that it proves the existence of God, not so much. Okay, so, um, okay, that's about criticism, okay? So two points. First of all, Donnie did I call his work,

divine comedy. He called La Calamadilla, not divine, the vine came later. Why would all these great poets want to add divine to La Camadilla? Okay, so if you talk to someone like T.S. Eliot, If you talk to any great poet of the 20th century, they will tell you there are two great poets in human history. They are Homer and they are Dante.

Maybe someone will say Shakespeare, maybe someone will include Milton. But they all agree there are two great poets of human history. They are Homer and they are Dante. And divine was added later on. Remember, at this time in history, you can't call anything divine because it's heresy, right? The Catholic Church is going to chop off your head. How dare you say something is divine? Only the Catholic Church has the authority to say what is divine or not.

All right, so it was not called divine at the time, it was either on later. That's point number one. Point number two is that what's interesting is that if you talk to scholars, there's widespread disagreement about the construction of these great poems. So for example, Homer, for whatever reason, there are many scholars who do not believe that Homer was a real person. person. They thought that Homer was a collection of individuals. Very much like the movie making process where you might have a director, but you also have a cinematographer, you have an editor, you have a collection of individuals, okay? Some even argue that the

Iliad in the Odyssey were not written by the same person. Emily Wilson, who translated both idiot in the Odyssey. If you go to Yale today, I direct the studies, The translation to actually read of Homer is translated by Emily Wilson. But I read her preface to The Odyssey. When I teach you Odyssey, I actually use Emily Wilson. And she said that, well, I personally think that Homer was not a one person. It was a committee. And it was very much a collective process.

And I mean, I'm so surprised by this because if you look at any great work of art, It's always an individual genius at work, okay? There's never an example of a great painting or a great piece of music or a great piece of literature where it's a collective effort where two individuals are working together. It only leads to chaos. Okay, let me finish please, okay? The Bible. The Bible is a great work of religion. But if you read the Bible, okay, you will know that it's complete under chaos.

There are certain parts of the Bible, for example, Genesis, which is, you read the Bible, you will know that it's complete under chaos. There are certain parts of the Bible, for example, Genesis, which is great literature. And we all agree that a lot of Bible was written by a person called the Yahweh is, J. Okay? If you just go spend some time and look at the scholarship on the Bible. Okay, they all tell you the Genesis was written by at least four people, all right? And the sort of Adam and Eve was written by one person, only one person who is the Yahweh is. If you read Hero Bloom the book of Jay, he makes the argument that Jay was a poet.

She was not a she, she was not a priest, she was not a theologian, she was a poet. Okay, so whatever parts of the Bible, which is extremely poetic, and this includes Genesis, it also includes the book of the Gospel of Mark, it was written by a poet. Okay? And if you actually do literal analysis, you can actually see the spark of poetry in certain aspects of the Bible, yes? I'm just going along with the hypothesis that, okay, say Dante has a framework, right? Dante is a world builder. What is, I don't know, I'm not scholar in this.

So, like, what exactly is Dante's framework is my question, right? If, if, assume with the hypothesis that Dante started up with the framework, what exactly is the framework? mathematical in nature? Is it scientific? It's experimental? What is it? Okay. All right. So let's go back to Homer, okay? Homer had to be a real person. And the reason why is if you actually read the Iliad in the honesty, and I suggest you do, because they're both tremendously beautiful works of literature, the people inside it are real people. They are real people and you could feel as though you could meet them in real life and have a conversation with Achilles and have a conversation with Odysse is and everyone else in In it and it's something with the line comedy where you can actually like meet Beatrice and she's a consistent real person

You can meet Dante you can meet virtual and they're all consistent people with real psychology. Okay, and he'll bloom again the criteria he uses in order to judge the authenticity of character is does this person hear himself or herself talk meaning is this person capable of self-reflection okay and the example of this is where Virgil is telling Dante so Beatrice promised me access to heaven if I help you and then he hears himself say wait a minute but that seems like I'm selfish that's that makes me seem very egotistical so then he changes and says oh but I didn't care because I was so enraptured by her beauty that I agreed anyway.

Okay? So that's what happens. When the character can hear himself talk, right? Line line like, I say this, but the oops, I see the effect on that person. So I'm going to make changes to it. And if you read Homer and Dante, that happens with characters all the time. When during the speech process, the person also is disassociating and analyzing his own speech okay and that's what makes it authentic and that's why it had to be written by

one person only he's only an individual capable of doing that it does that make sense all right okay so let us continue we're not kind of three okay and again something the reason why I want to read paradise first is I want to show you that this world is complete these are real people and even in infernal we can see foreshadowing of paradise. We can only see how Donnie subverting Virgil as an authority and he has to subvert Virgil in order to promote his ideas. Okay?

Through me the way into the suffering city, through me the way to the eternal pain, threw me the way that runs among the lost, justice urged on my high artificer. My maker was divine authority, the highest wisdom and the primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things were made. And I endure eternally, abandon every hope who enter here. So this is a very famous sign, warning to people who enter hell, okay? So if you want to come into hell, abandon every hope who enter here. Okay, let's see what I'm going.

Verse 10, these words, their aspect was obscure. I read and scribe above a gateway, and I said, Master, their meaning is difficult for me, and he to me, as one who comprehends, here one must leave behind all hesitation. Here every cowardice must meet its death, for we have reached the place of which I spoke where you will see the miserable people, those who have lost the good of the intellect.

And when with gladness in his face, he placed his hand upon my own. To comfort me, he drew me in among the hidden things. Here sighs and lamentations and loud cries were echoing across the starless air, so that as soon as I set out, I wept. Wait a stop, okay, right. Abandoned by hope

When to here Okay Turn to hell You must abandon hope What Does Dante mean by hope The hope That he, one day he can see

Beatrice again No no I'm saying more generally How is hope defined by Dante? Yes But what is arrogance The ego, yes Okay

Yes Yes The hope of getting out of it Yeah just the ego Okay Abandon your sense of self abandon every sense of agency and autonomy that you have okay that's what allows you into hell you understand okay abandon hope abandon your ego yes hope

would also connotate a relation to time you hope for the future you don't hope for so this is still beyond time and space that you spoke about earlier yes yes right Okay, does that make sense? Okay, but this is, so this is extremely provocative idea where you're taught like your ego is what leads you to hell, right? Your lust, your desire, that's what leads you to hell, but we know from paradise that Dante defines hope as arrogance. So abandon your arrogance, those who enter here right

abandon your belief that you by yourself can escape hell can redeem yourself from hell then you can be here okay does that make sense yes I wonder who wrote these words

was it like Virgil the writer or was it I'm sorry was it Dante the writer or was it Virgil or was it like a classical inscription written by like Homer or Virgil? Most of this will be Dante. Okay, and where it is someone else, Dante will reference.

Because again, Donnie is a very arrogant person. He wants you to recognize the originality of his poem, right? Okay, so this is Dante. And again, the idea of hope is consistent, right? We know from heaven that hope is arrogant, the assertion of self, the belief that you can change the world for the better. And what the only thing here is like, if you want to enter hell, you have to believe you have no agency.

You have no control over anything. That's a preconditioning, precondition for entering hell. Okay? Doesn't make sense. Yes? Yes? I'd like to highlight that it's actually on the person to decide whether he wants to enter. This is sending a message to the person who is entering hell.

That's right. Okay. Do you understand? If you in your heart don't believe you should be here, if you in your heart believe you can still escape hell, you can do so because the fundamental law of universe is free will. Yes? Yeah, I need to be confused because in the hell, like you said, then he just gave up. right, his hope, but there's still somebody who just still in the hell, just like Caesar or some kind of emperor, you know, even the godfather.

Do you think that they all just give up their hope? No, look, I'm not trying to make a theological argument, okay? I'm just trying to say what Dante's idea is. For Dante, everyone in hell is there because he or she chooses to be there. he chooses to be there because he or she has given up his or her free will. Doesn't make sense. Okay? It's a choice you make.

Whether it be in heaven or hell, it's a choice you make. Okay, let's keep on going. Verse 25. Strange utterances, horrible pronouncements, accents of anger, words of suffering, and voices shrill and faint and beating hands. hands, all went to make a tumult that would whirl forever through that turbid timeless air like sand that eddies when a whirlwind swirls. And I, my head oppressed by horror, said, Master, what is it that I hear?

Who are those people so defeated by their pain? And he to me. Okay. So defeated by their pain, okay? It's the construction of the words signifies these people have given up, you understand, defeated by their pain. These are defeated people, right? And this goes against what we understand about people in hell,

who are people who just do tremendous evil. Does that make sense? There's a clear difference. Okay, let's keep on going. Verse 34, and he to me this miserable way is taken by the sorry souls of those who lived without disgrace and without praise. They now commingle with the coward angels, the company of those who were not rebels and are faithful to their God but stood apart. The heavens that their beauty not be lessened have cast them out, nor will deep hell receive them, even the wicked cannot glory in them.

and I what is it master that oppresses these souls compelling them to wail so loud he answered I shall tell you in few words those who are here can place no hope in death and their blind life is so abject that

they are envious of every other fate a world will let no fame of theirs endure both justice and compassion must disdain them let us not talk of them but look and pass and I looking more closely saw a banner that as it wheeled about raised on so quick that any respite seemed unsuited to it.

Okay, so again, all these three different realms, whether they are hell or Portoori or Paradise, they all parallel each other in structure, okay? So in Paradise, it is Beatrice who is communicating with Dante, teaching Dante. Here in hell, it is Virgil that is teaching Dante. Can someone explain to me the difference, the difference in the way that Beatrice, teaches and the differences in the way that Virgil teaches. Do you see, do you spot the difference? Yes?

Maybe because the ego, because Beatrice just do not want the Dante to give up the ego, but yeah, the Virgil who just want him to give up. Yes? Seems that Beatrice inspired more imagination from Dante, whereas Virgil just answers his questions very directly. Exactly, you understand? Yes. Okay, the major difference is this. Beatrice is trying to be a teacher. As a teacher, you have to ask questions to your student. You have to welcome questions. You have to help provide clues that inspires a student to come up with his own conclusions, okay? Virgil is just like, this is the answer, memorize it. You understand? It's a very stark difference. Okay? Virgil has, yes?

I'm reminded of something that another professor of mine once said. The worst game to play in the world is guess what the professor is thinking. Okay, okay, all right. Look, all right, so do you guys understand the difference, okay? Beatrice is trying to guide Dante into self-understanding, which helps us develop our own self-understanding. Virgil is just trying to explain the rules of the universe. And for Virgil, these rules are absolute, so you just must remember these rules.

Okay? Virgil has a very clear explanation for everything, and D'Anthe just must remember this, okay? And this is a pattern. This is how Virgil will talk to Dante, and it mirrors how people are taught at this stage in history. It mirrors how people relate to the INIAD. Because if you read the INIAD, it's different from the Divine Comity. It's different from Homer in that if you read the Divine Comedy, it leads you to ask a lot of questions.

It inspires you in action. Whereas the INIAD, it's just like just obedience, passive acceptance. Okay. It inspires you to basically just sit down and obey. So that's the attitude of Virgil. Let's keep on going. Here is 55. Behind that banner trailed so long a file of people, I should never have believed that death

could have been made so many souls. After I had identified a few, I saw and recognized the shade of him who made, through cowardice, the great refusal. At once I understood with certainty this company contained the cowardly, hateful to God and to his enemies. These wretched ones, who never were alive when naked and were stung again, again by horse flies and by wasps that circled them. The insects drinked their faces with their blood, which mingled with their tears, fell at their

feet, where it was gathered up by sickening worms. And then looking beyond them, I could see a crowd along the bank of a great river, at which I said, allow me now to know who are these people, master, and what law has made them seem so eager for the crossing, as I can see despite the feeble light. Okay, so here in how these people, these souls are lining up to cross into the infernal okay you have to cross the river sticks first and while they're waiting they're being stung by these insects and so what's their response what are they doing first of all if you are in camping and you're

being stung by mosquitoes right there are all these insects around you what would you do yeah you do something about it right you do bug spray or you you start squatting them, right? What are they doing about it? Don't know, well, they are just talking about it. You understand? Okay, so it's this passive acceptance. Abandon hope, right?

I cannot alter my fate. All right, so that's what hell is. Hell is just positivity, compliance, obedience, acceptance. That's what hell is. All right. And not only that, but Dante uses a word you would not expect from these people, okay? Line 74. What is this word?

What is what? Like you would not expect this word in hell. Yeah, eager, right? You're like, what? These people are eager to enter hell? Okay, let's keep on going. verse 76 and he to me when we have stopped along the melancholy shore of Ackaron then all these matters will be plain to you at that with eyes ashamed downcast

and fearing that what I said had given him a fence I did not speak until we reached the river so how is the relationship between Virgil and Dante different from the relationship between Beatrice and Dante yeah to Dante Virgil's just a guide to um and Beatrice is like Dante's true love yes I think for Virgil he's also like less patient because he is like given a tax and he just wanted to complete his task as quickly as possible but Beatrice is more like oh I love this guy so I want to like teach him and make him better so there's like a difference Yeah, but I don't mean Virgil, I don't think his motivation is to commit the task.

What's Virgil's problem? Why is Virgil being impatient? Why are teachers in your school where you are? Why are they impatient? Yes? Because we're not listening to them in class? Exactly. Okay, do you understand?

Because you're not obedient. Okay. All right? Let's keep on going. Yes? I think that's mistaking the symptom for the cause. Like you're being disobedient so they become impatient. I think there's a root cause to all this.

And I think it's the explanation that we heard before. Like it's just a job to them. Okay. We already established that Beatrice promised Virgil access to heaven if he completes this time. right we already know that Virgil will choose not to go to paradise so so what do you think Virgil chooses not to go to paradise yes so I was wondering about this because Virgil is seems to be coming from a Roman multi multi-god

framework it seems so is there is there a chance that like Virgil sees himself in this Roman classical sense where he's inside now Dante's Christian framework and displeased with it perhaps yeah yeah Virgil yes maybe Virgil's already abandoned hope no he hasn't right because what and how we know he has not abandoned hope how about obedience because Virgil just have obedience to the room to the authority no no okay okay let's answer this question okay virtue has not abandoned hope how do we know that because he was willing to take on this task exactly to understand that okay if you have abandoned hope you don't think I'm

capable of this task leave me alone okay this is a reading point I do you understand hope is the assertion of the ego okay so he is so you have to have an ego to think that, oh, I can lead this guy out of hell, okay? You haven't been able to escape hell, but you're able to help this guy escape hell. That's ego, okay? So if Dante, sorry, if Virgil is out of bed and hope, right, then what is he doing in hell?

Like go back to the, like, teacher analogy. There's some really good teachers, like, who could be at a really good school, they choose to be at a bad school. Yes? Like I said, maybe he chose to be there. Maybe because he came from a polytheistic background, and I hate to get into semantics here,

but maybe he's just not willing to accept this Christian framework of the world, and so he would rather stay in hell where he doesn't have to face, you know, the one God every day. Okay, all right, okay, so let's make this reasonable, okay? You've all have had teachers, right? You've all have had teachers, some of your, I mean teachers. Are you teachers? Why do teachers teach differently? There are some teachers who want you ask questions,

who give you space to explore, who want you to make mistakes. There's some teachers who are like, we have a teaching plan, 45 minutes, every minute is planned already, let's just do it. And if we don't, and like don't ask question, okay? What's a difference between these two teachers? Yes? The amount of imagination they inspire?

Okay, well the effect is different, but I'm saying what's motivating these two teachers? Yes? I think one they genuinely care about their student and one like really didn't So why is he teaching that? Yes? One is more for like the material drive like to get a salary and the other is maybe like on another level where they actually want to inspire the student to inspire the student okay I've worked at a teacher okay and I can tell you most teachers I mean like they're not doing a job for the money because the money

sucks okay I'm not saying all of all teachers I'm saying like most teachers like the money the money just sucks like okay like I mean yeah go ahead as a teacher like the first style is probably when the student is more promising and you want this person to go further like he can figure it out by himself so you ask more questions and sometimes when students are like really don't have time for that and you have exam coming and if they're not that smart then you're like hey here's the answer remember it so yeah it's got a B plus you're never going to get here at a anyways that could be a reason but the second one could also be more authoritarian like this is the truth swallow it just like god

gives to it's a kill like you know don't make it wrong just do this is the answer yeah memorize it go go ahead um for my experience as a student, I feel like if the teacher's skill is not that great and they don't really understand the material that well and they don't have a strong ability in the in the course, like the material itself, they're afraid of you asking questions and they're kind of really bad at improv answering questions. So they just stick to the script and what they've prepared. But if the teacher is very knowledgeable in their field, then usually they're more open to discussion. Okay, yeah, okay. All right. Anyone else? Yes? Because teacher, what they've been taught, teach is not about themselves, it's about the authority, but school who want them to teach. So there must be some teacher who just do their job well because they just be paid to teach you, but not just try to, you know, have willingness to teach you, you know? Yeah, yes, at the back. If you're open to questions, your goal is to transfer the information, whereas,

if you're closed you just want to drop the information and just like yeah I've done my job I just dropped the info whereas asking questions more about transfer and you want your students to have the most of what you said okay yeah I mean like look look it's very simple okay for those teachers who allow questions to be asked it's coming from a place of love right you want students to learn but for for teachers who care about the result it's a it's going from place of control. Does that make sense? You want to be able to control the situation. And that I think is a difference between Virgil and Beatrice and it will become much more clear as we go along, where Beatrice is coming from a place of love. She generally wants to understand. And so she's

going to be patient. They're going to have long debates. Whereas for Virgil, he's coming from a place of control. Okay. He wants to be able to control how Dante thinks. He wants to be able to impose his worldview onto Dante, okay? So that's why there's just an impatient where, you know, Dante might ask a question that confuses Virgil or might create dissonance in virtual's worldview, so then Virgil gets impatient just,

hey, let's just wait a minute, okay? Let's just, like, we'll talk about it when we get there. And then Dante has a sense of fear, okay? Okay, right? So this is going to be an ongoing dynamic throughout infernal. Yes? Just have a question. Do you think it's possible that Virgil is also in some ways pretty jealous of Dante?

Because they're both poets and then like Dante is kind of like the chosen one. And then like also you mentioned earlier like Beatrice is like very pretty and then she asked Virgil to help and then Virgil's like, sure. And so maybe he's a bit jealous of Dante and that's also one of the reason why he wants to be in the upper position controlling him Any response to this? I don't think so because if you just try to be glad it must give up the hope right or give up your ego So how come you just on the one hand give up ego? On the other hand, you also want to have an envy or you know have some kind of feeling like that But we said Virgil did not give up on he's hope I think okay no I mean like if you were jealous of this guy what would you do push him in the

water yeah you know um I I would think Virgil would just say no right I'm not gonna help this guy and and also like you need understand um it's really hard for for you to appreciate but at this time in history Virgil is literally God every child is forced to memorize um um in school. No one who knows who Dante is. Okay, no one knows who he is, no one cares who he is. And Dante told Virgil already, wow, you're my hero, you're my God, I've been reading you since I was young. I'm, I'm a poet because I aspire to be like you. Okay? So, so they can't possibly, Virgil can't possibly, oh my God, he's better than I am. It's beyond his imagination, okay? All right. Let's keep on going.

Verse 82. And here advancing toward us in a boat, an aged man, his hair was white with ears, was shouting, woe to you, corrupted souls, forget your hope of ever seeing heaven. I come to lead you to the other shore, to the eternal dark, to fire and frost. And you approaching there, you living soul,

keep well away from these, they are the dead. And when he saw, I made no move to go, He said, another way, another harbors not here will bring you passage to your shore. A lighter craft will have to carry you. Okay, so like hell is like literally the worst school in the world. It's like literally the worst school in the world. It's very materialistic. There are lots of rules.

And the students are treated like crap. And the students have given up all hope. And the riverman, the ferryman who is supposed to take the souls across the river sticks in order to enter hell. So he sees Dant and says, wait a minute here, Dante, you're not dead, you have a body. So like, don't get on my boat because the rule is very simple. Only souls are allowed to get on my boat. Go somewhere else, okay?

Come on going. Verse 94. My guide then. Karen, don't torment yourself. Our passage has been willed above where one can do what he has willed and ask no more. Now silence fell upon the woolly cheeks of Karen, pilot of the livid marsh, whose eyes were ringed about with wheels of flame. But all those spirits, naked and exhausted, had lost their color, and they gnashed their teeth as soon as they heard Caron's cruel words. They execrated God and their own parents and humankind, and then the place in time of their conception seed and of their birth.

Then they foregathered, huddled in one throng, weeping aloud along that wretched shore. which waits for all who have no fear of God. Okay, all right. So, Sean is like, Dante, you're not dead. Get on my boat. And Virgil's like, we have the support of God. And God commands Dante to get on his boat. And Sean's like, oh, crap, okay?

But he agrees. Why is this a paradox? What does this make no sense? Because I feel like, like, Karen is a mythical figure in Greek mythology. So, like, if he's present, then this underworld is like the Greek underworld. So he's not supposed to be afraid of the Christian God. Yeah, that's exactly right. Like, who cares?

Like, this is the underworld, right? God has no authority here. So what does he obey? The paradox is this, right? Why is Sharon a Greek mythical character? Why is he obeying the Christian God? It's a paradox. He obeys.

And he is afraid, okay? So he fears God. So, but he's not supposed to fear God. What's going on here? Yes? Who's Sharon again? Sharon in Greek mythology is the fairy man who takes you across.

the river sticks into hell okay so why is he obeying yes so at the end of city of god augustine deals with this concept of of hell and of evil and he says that hell is not evil because hell was created by god and hell is a place of justice and we have this concept of hell is like satan's the ruler of hell but god is the ruler of hell because god created created and so I guess that's why he would be afraid of it's because God is the ultimate authority. Yeah, but in paradise, we learned that there are certain spots where God's like doesn't shine. And one of these places is hell. So God doesn't really have much presence here in hell.

Right? Yes? Like, there's a difference between doesn't shine and doesn't shine at all, right? Like, there is still this infantismal, there's still this tiny presence of God in hell and God created hell. because otherwise he will not be God, right? Because this patch of hell does not belong to him. So this patch of hell must still be connected to him in some small one. Okay, okay, look, look, look, let's not overthink things, okay?

Like, there's a problem with, like, too much education. You tend to, like, overthink things. Dante is a Democrat. He wants people, he believes that anyone, regardless of education, is able to reason out certain things by himself, okay? So try not to be too sophisticated and just ask yourself what's going on here the paradox is this the paradox is that Sean should not be free of God he should not obey God but he does obey why it's a riddle yes could it be that he's not actually like

submitting to God but submitting to Virgil like because it's Virgil's words Who's command? So can read? Yes. Who's speaking? It's Virgil. Do you understand? Do you understand?

It doesn't matter what Virgil is saying. It's Virgil speaking. So Sharon is submitting to Virgil, not to God. You understand? So who's the real mass of hell? It's Virgil's the mass of hell, okay? Here he's telling us. Here Donnie is telling us.

Virgil is the master of hell. Okay? Yes? Is that why he chose not to go to heaven? Exactly. You understand? Do understand the logic of this? Because you are emperor of hell. And you go to heaven and now you are servant to God.

Does that make sense? Yeah, because... Because, you know, from our imagination, I thought Lucifer, who is the, you know, the godfather in hell. But how do you say that Virgil? Or it means Virgil just is kind of an avatar of a demon? Well, again, this will be revealed to us over time, okay? But look, what we know is Virgil knows hell really, really well, okay? Because he's able to guide Dante throughout hell.

That's number one. Number two is, the people in hell seem to obey him. Right? That's number two. Number three is we know for a fact that he has the option of ascended to heaven, but he chooses not to. Okay? So again, that is the...

So Donnie doesn't tell us outright, but he forces you to make this conclusion based on what you've read, okay? Yes? So I feel like, there are two things I want to talk about. The first part is in answer to your question about why Virgil is suddenly Satan. I didn't say Virgil is suddenly Satan.

I said that he seems to be master of hell. I was answering the question. I was saying that it seems like he is an emanation of the primal force of blind obedience that is the master of hell. Like he's just an avatar here. He's not the actual king of hell. And there is no actual king of hell in physical body down to walk with us.

And no, no, no, no, no. You're getting it confused, phologically. I let's move on. I have another question. So is, um, in this interaction between Sharon and Virgil, it is also an indication of basically all the people in hell are more obedient. than people everywhere else. So it's just a reflection of the general passivity

of people in hell. Okay, so we have to be very careful, okay? Satan is Satan not because he is the paragon of obedience. What is Satan really? What is his problem? Yes? Satan is Lucifer, which used to be an angel of music in the heavens and he was more beautiful and talented and all the other angels.

So he grew proud and decided to not listen to God. Exactly. Okay. So the problem is not obedience. The problem is pride. People in hell are distinguished not by their obedience. They're distinguished by their pride. That's why Sharon is so rude to Dante, right?

But when you enter hell, don't you have to abandon your pride or your ego? if you're the soul, right? But Sharon is like one of the demons of hell. You understand? He's the one who controls hell. Right? So if you're a soul entering hell, you must abandon all hope. You must be completely passive.

But the people in charge, right? They're proud. And so what we'll learn as we go on is like, there's actually a lot of infighting in hell. Okay, so maybe certain people obey Virgil, but others don't obey Virgil. Okay, but Virgil doesn't care because like I'd rather be emperor of hell than a servant in heaven. And who else fought this?

Who else believed this? Yeah, right? Okay, that's why he's in hell, yes? So like this is something I don't get. So like in a historical framework Virgil is human, Virgil has a soul, and Dante definitely knows that Virgil is human and has a soul. So if he, Virgil is down here, that means that his soul must have ended up down here. But you just said that all social interheld must become passive.

So why is he being so active now? Okay. All right. So, in Deng Thunni's imagination, Virgil is eternal. He's immortal. Why? Because people read as poetry, right? So Virgil has become the poem, the Inniad.

itself. Virgil is just the expression of the poem, the Inniat, okay? Doesn't make sense. All right. Let's keep, like, like, like, we have a lot to do, okay? So, so let's keep focus. Let's just try to get as much as we can. Okay, let's, let's go. Verse 109, the demon Karen with his eyes like embers by signal into them has all embarked, has ore, his This oar strikes anyone who stretches out. As in the autumn leaves detach themselves, first one and then the other, till the bough sees all its fallen garments on the ground. Similarly, the evil seed of Adam descended from the shoreline one by one,

when signaled, as a falcon called, will come. So do they move across the darkened waters even before they reach the farther shore? New ranks already gather on this bank. My son, the gracious master, said to me, Those who have died beneath the wrath of God, all these assembled here from every country, and they're eager for the river crossing because celestial justice spurs them on

so that their fear is turned into desire. No good soul ever takes its passage here, therefore if Karen has complained of you, by now you can be sure what his words mean. Okay, so this is a really hard idea for us to appreciate it, okay? But the people in hell, when they cross the river, their fear is charred into desire, okay? So maybe before they enter hell, they didn't really understand what hell is. They're afraid.

They come to the river crossing and, like, they really want to enter hell. Okay? So let's sort of figure out what hell really is. And again, it's an inverse of heaven. Okay, right? How is hell the inverse of heaven? What's the difference in Dante's conception? Hell is circles, heaven is fears.

Yes. No, but I'm saying let's think about the governing principles of heaven. Let's feel like the governing principles of hell. Yes? Hell is more about obedience, which is basically the Aenead. And then heaven's more of a reflection of the divine comedy, which is creativity. and ego. Yeah.

So the key is obedience, okay? If you are someone of pride, like Virgil, the only way to express your pride is if people obey you, you understand. So hell is a place for two types of people, people who want to control the people and people who want to be controlled. And that's what hell is.

and heaven is a place of perfect justice of free will you are there because you choose to be there and then you choose to submit to God because God is perfect justice and you understand that okay yes again this is something I'm confused about so you said that you chose to submit to God

so how is you chose to submit to God and you chose to submit to Satan different in actuality. Okay, all right. Again, we're going to have time so I'll explain to you real quickly, okay? You choose God because you have perfect knowledge of the world and you think that God is the best choice. All right? So it's one of knowledge, it's one of love. Why do you choose Satan? Because you're afraid. You don't know anything, you're afraid, you rather give give up your free will than to engage in a process of knowledge of inquiry of learning that it enables you to understand the cosmos that's why you choose Satan because it's the easiest path

for you to take one of blood obedience is a lot harder than self-doubt self-discovery okay debate that doesn't make sense guys okay if you have perfect knowledge you're going to choose god you will i will choose similar to god if you have perfect knowledge but that that requires a lifetime of learning of debate of yes but how can you give away your free will to Satan like if you're you if you can give give away God's most precious gift to Satan then Satan is just as powerful is gone because it's free will you can do whatever you want yeah you can give it away whenever you want yes that's what it's called free will okay all right let's let's keep on going

verse 130 and after this was said the darkened flame quaked so tremendously the memory of terror then bathed me and sweat again a whirlwind burst out of the tear drenched earth a wind that crackled with a blood-red light a light that overcame all of my senses and like a man whom sleep has seized i fell okay so this happens a lot Okay, basically Donnie gets blind in heaven and then Donnie has Caesars in hell. Okay? You know, this is the interesting question. Do you think Donning had epilepsy? You know, that is a possibility, right?

Because back then, if you had epilepsy, they really thought that you were seized by God. And he got these visions, right? Okay, so that is a question for us to think about. We'll never know, but yeah, yes? He most likely has Shizzo because he kept hearing voices talking to him, yeah. Oh, okay, and you know that for a fact. Well, I know that he dropped up

an entire other personality, Beatrice, as an adult, mind you, not as a kid with imaginary friends, so there's some kind of disorder here. Okay, well, clearly there's a disorder, but what it is, we'll never know, okay? All right, let's keep on Go into Kendall 4, please. Cantle 4.

The heavy sleep within my head was smashed by an enormous thunder clap so that I started up as one whom force awakens. I stood erect and turned my rested eyes from side to side, and I stared steadily to learn what place it was surrounding me. In truth, I found myself upon the brink of an abyss, the melancholy valley containing thundering and ending wailings. That valley dark and deep and filled with mist is such that, though I gazed into its pit, I was unable to discern a thing.

Let us descend into the blind world now, the poet who was deathly pale began. I shall go first and you will follow me, but I, who had seen the change in his complexion, said, How shall I go on if you're frightened, you have always helped dispel my doubts? And he to me, the anguish of the people whose places here below has touched my face with the compassion you mistake for fear. Let us go on, the way that waits as long. So he set out and he had me enter on that first circle, girdling the abyss. Here, for as much as hearing could discover, there was no outcry louder than the sighs

that caused the everlasting air to tremble. The sides arose from sorrow without torments out of the crowds, the many multitudes of infants and of women and of men. the kindly master said, Do you not ask who are these spirits whom you see before you? I'd have you know before you go ahead. They did not sin. And yet though they have merits, that's not enough

because they lacked baptism, the portals of the faith that you embrace. And if they lived before Christianity, they did not worship God in fitting ways. And of such spirits, I myself am one. For these defects and for no other evil, we now are lost and punished just with this. We have no hope, and yet we live in longing. Okay, so we are now in limbo, okay?

Which is the first circle of hell. And limbo, it's actually a very nice place. It's a very nice retiring community. But it's not heaven because why? Why are these people in limbo rather than in heaven? Yeah, they were not baptized as Christians, okay? So again, this is very much. Virgil being absolute. What he's saying is like unless you were baptized, you could never, ever access

heaven. And this again, at this time in history, is what the Catholic Church teaches. Yes? I like, it's Virgil who said that because I'm not a, I'm not baptized, I belong here. Exactly. Okay. He's castigating himself not the laws of the universe. It is, it is Virgil. No, no, no, no, no. Virgil's being absolute here. Oh, he's being absolute here? Yeah, yeah. They have marriage. but that's never enough. No matter how hard you work, no matter how good you are, how virtues you are. If you lack baptism, the best place you can hope for is limbo in hell, okay? Yes?

I have a question because in the stanza is that people cannot be perfectly baptized. What is that mean? It means that only the baptized maybe not enough. It must be baptized perfectly. So what's different? Wait, wait, I... What does Virgil say that? The people should be... What line are you referring to? Perfectly baptized.

What line are you referring to? 35. What does it say perfect? Yesterday, yesterday we saw that... No, no, no, no, no, refer me to the line. Okay, okay. I mean today. We should not.

I can remember exactly, but... No, no, no. Guys, guys, guys, it was... Guys, we're referring to Virgil, you have to like tell me what the line is. Line 35 says what? Because they lack baptism. There was no perfect word in it. There's no perfect word here.

It's that simple, okay? If you were baptized at a Christian, you are allowed to go to heaven. If you're not baptized, you don't go to heaven. It's pretty simple. Okay? Yes? Yes? So like if we, we, we, we,

We just talked about infants, right? And we figured out why they were in heaven despite maybe not being baptized. So like, are these all grown people down here? Are there infants in this? There are infants. There are infants in here as well, okay? There are infants here as well. And Donnie will explain this.

All right, let's keep on going. Line 43. Great sorrow ceased my heart on hearing him. For I had seen some estuble movement among the soul suspended in that limbo. Okay, so again, Donnie doesn't understand this. How is it possible that in a just world where God's perfect justice, if you are not baptized, and you could be a great man, but you can't access heaven?

Okay? Keep on going. Verse 46, tell me, my master, tell me, Lord. I then began because I wanted to be certain of that belief which vanquishes all errors. Did any ever go by his own merit or others from this place toward blessedness and he who understood my covert speech replied, I was new, entered on the state when I beheld a great Lord enter here, the crown he wore a sign of victory. He carried off the shade of our first father, of his son Abel, and the shade of Noah of Moses, the obedient legislator,

of Father Abraham, David the King, of Israel, his father, and his sons, and Rachel, she for whom he worked so long, and many others. He made them blessed. and I should have you know that before them there were no human souls that had been saved okay so Dante asked is an exception to this and then um what Virgil says is yes there's only one instance there's only one exception and that's when jesus came to hell for three days and he took with him all the great souls of the bible including adam Moses David everyone okay They were not baptized because they were Israelites, they were Jews, but because they were so great, Jesus forgave them and took them to heaven with him. But that's the only time.

That's it. Okay? And like, again, we know this is not going to be true. Over time, as we read the divine comedy, we're going to find a lot of exceptions, actually. But here, because it's Virgil and because we're just reading the divine comedy, we think this must be true. Okay, so so we are under the impression that everything he says is the absolute truth Okay, keep on going For 64

We did not stay our steps although he spoke We still continued onward through the wood The wood I say were many spirits thronged Our path had not gone far beyond the point where I had slept When I beheld a fire went out against a hemisphere of shadows We still were at a little distance from it But not so far I could not see in part that honorable men possessed that place. Oh, you who honor art and signs both, who are these souls whose dignity

has kept their way of being separate from the rest, and he to me, the honor of their name, which echoes up above within your life, gains heaven's grace, and that advances them. Meanwhile, there was a voice that I could hear, pay honor to the estimable poet, his shadow, which had left us now returns. After that voice was done when there was silence, I saw a four giant shades approaching us. In aspect, they were neither sad nor joyous. My kindly master then began by saying, look well at him who holds that sword in hand, who moves before the other three is Lord. That shade is Homer, the consummate poet. The other one is Horace, satirist, the third is Ovid, and the last is Lucan. Because of each of these spirit shares with me the name

called out before by the lone voice, they welcome me, and doing that do well. And so I saw that splendid school assembled led by the Lord of Song incomparable who like an eagle's source above the rest. Soon after they had talked a while together, they turned to me, saluting cordially and having witnessed this, my master smiled.

An even greater honor than was mine, for they invited me to join their ranks. I was the sixth among such intellects. So Donnie is saying that he is in the pentheon of the greatest poets. Okay? Keep on going. Line 103. So did we move along and toward the light talking of things about which silence here is just as seemingly as our speech was there?

We reached the base of an exalted castle encircled seven times by towering walls, defended all around by a fair stream. We forwarded this as if upon hard ground, I entered seven portals with these sages. We reached a meadow of green flowering plants. The people here had eyes both grave and slow. Their features carried great authority. They spoke infrequently with gentle voices. We drew aside to one part of the meadow, an open place both high and filled with light, and we could see all those who were assembled.

Facing me there on the enameled green, great-hearted souls were shown to me and I still glory in my having witnessed them. I saw Electra with her many comrades, among whom I I knew Hector and Aeneas and Caesar in his armor falconide. I saw Camila and Pentheselia, and on the other side, saw King Latinas, who sat beside Lavinia, his daughter. I saw that Brutus, who drove Tarquin out, Lucretia, Julia, Marsha, and Cornelia, and Solitary set apart,

Saladin. When I had raised my eyes a little higher, saw the master of the men who know seated in philosophic family. there I'll look up to him I'll do honor I'll do him honor there I beheld both Socrates and Plato closes to him in front of all the rest

Democritus who ascribes the world's chance diogenes Empidocles and Zeno and Thales and Axagoras Heraclitus I saw the good collector of medicinals I mean Dioscorides

And I saw Orpheus and Tully, Linus, Moral Seneca, and Euclid the Geometer, Motholome, Hippocrates, Hippocrates and Galen, Avicenna Averos, of the great commentary. Avicina and Averroles are Muslims, okay? These are the great Muslim intellectuals of the Islamic Golden Age. Keep on going? I cannot hear describe them all in full. My ample theme impels me onwards, so what's told is often less than the event. The company of six divides into me knowing guide leads me another way, beyond the quiet into trembling air.

And I have reached a part where no things gleams. Okay, all right, stop. Okay, all right. So what I'm doing now is compare and contrasts heaven and hell. Okay. At the very top of heaven, of course, is the Imperium. right the imperium and the imperium um is where god is and flowing beside god is the red rose okay like this stadium where the greatest souls of humanity reside next to god the queen is mary but then uh sitting beside mary is eve and then you have anna who is mary's mother you

have beatrice you have rachel you have rebecca you have lucia okay That is the highest level of heaven. Now, in Inferno, which is hell, the highest level is actually limbo, right? Because we're descending downwards, okay? So the highest level is actually limbo. And in limbo, we have the greatest heroes, thinkers, poets of humanity. Okay? We have Julius Caesar, we have Homer, we have Socrates, we have Plato, we have all the greatest heroes of humanity.

Can somebody explain me why this is constructive way it is? What is Stanley saying here? Because they didn't believe in God. They weren't Christian. Yeah, that's what Virgil says, right? We know Virgil is not a reliable narrator. our own logic we have to like really think about the cosmology at work here okay did you have a question or comment yeah because just now he said the great hero who just

live in the limbo right because maybe they just uh they're just just just great hero you know because they don't need to love god or maybe they don't even know the god they just yeah i i i know that's what Virgil says okay but but what i'm trying to tell you is that Virgil lies all the time and what we know yes I think these people in hell live through ego and so they want it to be on top of everyone whereas in paradise they are within God so they're in the center right no okay so what you're saying is that the people in limbo people like Julius Caesar Homer are selfish who want glory and the people in heaven, people like Mary, Rachel, they are without ego. Is that what you're trying to say?

It was more about how you consider yourself. I think in how you're above everyone you want to be in control and have the level of hierarchy where you're just like superior to them. Whereas in the paradise, you're within God. So like you're inside of him, you're in the center of him and you're all loving so it's not about like crank or anything well yeah so that's one explanation where the people in hell this limbo they are trying to win glory for themselves whereas in heaven these people whether it's Anna Mary

Lucia Beatrice or Rachel they're trying to spread love in the world okay yeah that's that's one possibility yes these people seem to be the smartest strongest most powerful people in limbo yes they are and so that it seems to be saying that you can't force open the gates of heaven with your logic with your strength with your power exactly yeah that that's also another possibility okay yes or maybe because they they devoted your lifetime into doing great things and then they're selfless and then they still have to hope that they could potentially save the people and how is that a possibility Can you repeat that? I'm not sure I understand what people.

I'm saying like when they were alive, they devoted their lifetime into doing something great. Like for example, the poets acknowledged people of more knowledge and then maybe they just chose to be in hell because they still have to hope that they could potentially inspire or save some of the people over there? No. No, actually. I don't, yeah. Yeah, because before Christianity, all of the great hero has been born. So yeah, that's just why they did putting them into a limbo because this is before that, right? Before Chris Natty which has been born. Okay, again, like we're trying to understand Dante and when we understand Dante is to use

your imagination and create contrast, okay? So Dante puts Mary Eve, Beatrice, Anna, Rachel, and Lucia at the very tall, okay? They are the greatest heroes. Yes? I realize it's all ladies, a woman, and then here is mostly great men, and I think maybe some qualities that he sees in them

that separates the sexes. So, like, the women are more submissive, they worship God, they are not willing to be the center, but these men, they lay down the foundation of intellectual world on earth, so they are the centralized, either power, authority, or foundation, so they didn't want to center around God, like revolve around God.

Well, okay, okay, so I need to correct, okay? These women are not submissive. Beatrice is not submissive. Rachel is not submissive. Rebecca is not submissive. They're all very strong women, okay? All right, so I want to do this exercise. If you were asked to pick people who should be beside God,

in the imperium okay who would you pick no no no no be these people are pagans right who would you pick and Homer is a pagan I'm just saying like like if you if you just talk to any Christian and like okay like who should be next to God what names would you come up with hmm Justin okay Augustine Jesus Jesus yes I think I think you need to pick people who are pleasing to God like we have to consider God Who is the most pleasing of God? David, okay? Why is David not on this list?

It's David. If you read the Bible, it's like, David, okay? David has been number one, more than Jesus. You understand? If you read the Bible, it's David who's the most pleasing of God. That's why Israel is called the kingdom of David. Okay, so it's David. In the Jewish tradition, who's actually more important than David?

Moses. Thank you. What is Moses not on this list? right so you need David you need Moses you need Jesus you can argue about Augustine okay who else would you have Elijah thank you yes Elijah right because Elijah guys actually I sent it to heaven to be with God who else yes Noah right who else Abraham thank you because Abraham is a father of all three faiths Christianity Islam and and

and Judaism, okay? Why are they not on the list? None of them are. This is all very confusing. Do you understand? This is a huge paradox for us. Why, okay, in limbo, we understand, Julius Caesar, Homer, the greatest thinkers, heroes of antiquity.

Yes, we understand that, but if that's the case, then logically, in the imperium, next to God, should be David, he should be number one, then it should be Moses, Abraham, Elisha, you can also say Enoch, okay? If some of you know your Bible, Enoch, should be on the list as well, right? Because Enoch was the first to ascend to heaven.

So what's going on here? Do you understand? If we are to create parallelism in structure, then if the people in Limbaugh are the great, greatest of integrity then in heaven it should be the greatest of the Bible right but it's not it's people who are barely mentioned in the Bible Mary Rebecca Rachel and I don't know anything in the Bible okay Beatrice is definitely not the Bible so what's going on here anyone I don't know maybe

because they don't really love God they just obedience to God but it doesn't mean they love God oh David loves God okay David loves God and again this all what the Bible teaches you okay if you're a Christian that you know God loves David the most and David loves God the most yes it would be like on earth they had a form of power and power corrupts Okay, that is true, but but but but but I mean like Moses Noah Abraham Elygia we all know their stories right yes I think he didn't put like too high figures so as like readers we don't compare ourselves to them and so it gives us access to heaven thank you yes you understand first and foremost what makes

Donnie like the revolution is his democratic nature You understand? Okay? Democratic and Negotitarian. If you are to create a word of love, you need these two principles. Democratic and Egotarian. The people in integrity, right, in limbo, Julius Caesar, Who among us can be Julius Caesar?

None of us, okay? But who among us can be Beatrice or Anna or Rachel or Lucia? Well, any one of us, it's just our choice to make. The Judas Caesar, the things that allow him to view are unique, right? Who can be a homer? No one except Homer. Who can be a Dante? No one, okay?

But we can all choose to be a good person. And if we choose to be a good person, we will impact the people around us and be next to God. Do you understand? So usually poetry is written to put you in awe, to make you fear, right? That's what the Indianian is about. But the divine comedy is meant to inspire you to ascend to greater heights.

Not just like they educated, it's like anyone. That's what the divine company was written in Tuscan, Italian, not Latin. Because Latin is a language of the elite. Cussin is a language of anyone and everyone. Okay? Does that make sense? Okay. So again, yes?

I just can't understand why, if this book is meant to be democratic, why does it have so many references? It's really hard to read if you don't know anything about the Bible or everyone he's talking about. Yeah, that's a great question. Okay. All right. So, first of all, I hate to say this, but people back here in the year 13, they're probably more educated than we are today.

Okay, it's hard for us to read. But back then, if you were educated, you had access to a very wide classical education, okay? I know this is not what you're taught in school. You're taught that, oh, back there, people are living in dark ages, they had no books. That's not true, okay? You know it's not true because of Dante.

Like back then, you'd have any access to this knowledge. How could they have written this? Okay, so back then, the most... people didn't have access to education, most people could only go to church, but for the elite, for people of a certain background, the middle class basically, you had access to much wider education than you have today, okay? That's point one. Point two is that the divine comedy is meant to be an infinite universe onto itself.

It's meant for a place to explore for the rest of your life. So having these different references, it's almost incentivizing you to do research on your own. It doesn't make sense, right? Because, like, he doesn't want a situation where you just read it once. You're like, okay, I got it. Thank you very much. No, he wants you to keep on going back and thinking about, exploring it in order to fully appreciate it. And the way he does that is food beauty, right?

I mean, it's like Leonardo Vinci painting the Mona Lisa. Right? It's not like you go like oh the Mononica all right no you want it in your house so you can look at it every day For the rest of your life because it's so beautiful right and the more you look at it the more complexity the more nuance the more solotity you see in the Mona Lisa doesn't make sense okay So that's intention okay all right but yeah I mean like like like it's a very common misunderstanding like during the dark ages they long They lost the Greeks, they lost integrity, and so they had to bring it back from the Islamic war. That's not true.

At this, think about this how in any society, the elite are educated differently from the common people, right? This is true fraud history. The elite are going to have more access to education than the common people, mainly for tutors, right? Mainly for tutors. Okay? All right. Is that clear, guys?

All right. Let's continue. Yes? Like, this is something I wonder about since you started reading all these names. So, like, if Dante is operating in the spirit of Renaissance humanism, if he is bringing back the Greeks, even though you said that's not entirely true, but let's say that he is bringing back the Greeks. Why is he condemning all of these Greek heroes, all of these ancient heroes to hell? They're not in hell.

They're in how they're in limbo. Oh, they are kind of in hell. You just said that limbo is a part of hell. Virgil already told us, right? They are there because they lack the Christian faith. Virgil, well, Virgil said it wasn't true. Right, and so you can choose in limbo to adopt the Christian faith. Do you understand?

And when you read the divine harmony, you will find some individuals who do do that. Cato. So, but that's when we get to progatory, okay? You will find that there are certain individuals who should be in limbo but because of their own choice, they adopted a Christian faith. They ascended to progatory, and even one, Rufius, will ascend to heaven. Okay? All right, let's keep on going.

Count of five. Conto five. So I descended from the first enclosure down to the second circle, that which girdles less space but grief more great that goads to weeping. There dreadful Mino stands gnashing his teeth, examining the sins of those who enter. He judges and assigns as his tail twines. I mean that when the spirit born to evil appears before him, it confesses all, and he, the connoisseur of sin, can tell the depth in hell appropriate to it.

As many times as Minos wraps his tail round himself, that marks the sin. at the men's level. Always there's a crowd that stands before him. Each soul in turn advances toward that judgment. They speak and hear, then they're cast below. Arresting his extraordinary task, Minos, as soon as he had seen me said, Oh, you who reached his house is suffering,

be careful how you enter, whom you trust. The gate is wide, but do not be deceived. Okay, this is like really interesting, right? So Minos, the monitor, what he's doing is he's assigning people to hell, okay? Mino sees Dante and Virgil, and he says, Be careful who you enter, be careful who you trust,

do not be deceived. What is he referring to? Don't trust Virgilfully? Yeah, okay. I would think that, because think about this logically, he's saying, like, don't trust anyone in hell. I'm done, like, I'm going to trust anyone in hell. Thank you very much.

Who's the only person who can possibly trust? and it's Virgil, right? And he's saying, don't trust anyone. So it's a direct reference to Virgil. Okay? But it's impossible to see because it's a paradox for you, right? And so, and so, again, it's all nuance. It's all subtlety because I'm not sure if you ever had,

if you ever try to convince someone, right, of anything. I mean, you probably know this, right? Right, Carol? Where, like, if, you know, your sons are doing anything bad, if you tell them directly, they'll just keep on doing that crap, right? But you have to do it in a very nuanced way. It's a you have to nudge that person, right? And this is what's happening here in the mind comedy,

where Don is nudging us, right? Like, okay, I understand Virgil is God, but, you know, maybe he's not that honest. Okay, it's all nudging, it's all nuance, it's all subtlety. Okay, let's keep on going. Line 21. To which my guide replied, but why protest?

Do not attempt to block his faded path. Our passage has been willed above where one can do what he has willed and ask no more. You see how Virgil gets angry now, right? Because Virgil knows, Menos is telling Donnie, don't trust Virgil, and like Virgil is saying to him, shut up, man. Okay?

Yes? Is Minos the Minotaur or the king of Crete? Yes, yes. I thought he was like the king of Crete. I just don't know why he's turned into a monster. No, no, Minos is not the, no, King Minos is the king of Crete, right? The Monotaur is the monster that protects the labyrinth. So this is the Monotaur.

Okay, let's go on. Verse 25. Now notes of desperation have begun to overtake my hearing. Now I come where mighty lamentation beats against me. I reached a place where every light is muted, which bellows like the sea beneath the tempest when it is battered by opposing winds. The hellish hurricane which never rests strives on the spirits with its violence, wailing and pouting and harasses them.

When they come up against the ruined slope, then there cries and wailing and lament, and there they come up against the ruin slope, and there they curse the force of the divine. I learned that those who undergo this torment are damned because they sinned within the flesh, subjecting reason to the rule of lust. And as in the cold season, starlings wing bear them along in broad and crowded ranks,

so does that blast bear on the guilty spirits. Now here, now there, now down now, up, it drives them. There's no hope that ever comforts them, no hope for rest and none for lesser pain. And just as cranes in flight will chant their lays arraying their long file across the air. So did the shades I saw approaching, borne by that assailing wind, lament and moan, so that I asked him, Master, who are those who suffer punishment in this dark air? Okay, so we're in the first circle of hell, okay?

Like we left limbo, and now we are in hell where proper, where everyone's being punished, okay? in the first circle, these are people who lust. And the great thing about Dante is he still imagined if, like, everyone who is guilty of a particular sin has, deserves, has a just punishment in hell, okay? So these are people who lust, which means that they constantly change their emotions, right? So the punishment is they're being whipped around in a whirlwind,

okay right so they are never they are they are not loyal to their own emotions and now there's just being whipped around in a world win okay does that make sense okay all right let's keep on going line 52 the first of those about whose history you want to know my master then told me once ruled as empress over many nations her vice of lust became so customary that she made license listed in her law to free her from the scandal she had caused. She's Samaramis, of whom we read that he was Ninnis' wife and his successor. He helped the land the Sultan now commands.

The other spirit killed herself for love, and she betrayed the ashes of Sychius. The wanton Cleopatra follows next. See Helen, for whose sake so many years of evil had to pass. See great Achilles, who finally met love in his last battle. Okay, all right. So something that is confusing for people is that Dante does not have access to Homer and the Greeks. And so when you're talking about Achilles, he's not talking about Achilles from the Iliad. He's talking about Achilles from other mythologies written in Latin.

Okay, so this is why it's been confusing for people. All right. So something really you guys need to appreciate is, what Virgil is doing is he's naming these individuals in this circle of lust. And there's one person he doesn't name. The other spirit killed herself for love and she betrayed the ashes of Sychius. Okay. She doesn't name this person, but he does name Cleopatra.

He names Helen. He names Achilles. He names Sarah Rames. So there's a thousand people. There's only one person he does not name. Does anyone know who this person is? Who killed herself for love and she betrayed her husband Sychias? Dido.

It's Dido, okay? It's Dido. Who created Ditto? Virgil. Virgil. Okay. So, again, it's so interesting the contrast, right? We have two great poets in the line comedy.

They are, of course, Virgil and Dante. Virgil and Dante. And both of them will create two great female protagonists that are celebrated throughout history. Virgil will create Ditto and Dane will create Beatrice. If you read the Inniath, and we will read the Inniat actually later this afternoon, parts of it, okay? What Virgil does is he condemns Ditto to hell.

And then what Donnie does is, he will elevate Beatrice to heaven. Okay. So there's definitely no way that Dante admires Virgil, right? I mean, he may have read Virgil and be heavily influenced by Virgil, but ultimately embedded within the divine comedy is this constant battle between Virgil and Dante. We know because of how they treat their different heroes. And actually, we're running out of time. So what I want to do is return passages of the Indianat, okay?

So you can see who Ditto is. And we can contrast this with how Dante treats Beatrice. All right, but any questions about, yes? I collect two questions from online participants. Okay. The first one is, could Dentist's whole journey be read as the movement from fragmentation to coherence? Hale is equal to misaligned desire. Partigatory is like purified desire.

Paradise is something like an individual will fully aligned with the divine order. Yeah, that is a great point. Yes, it is a journey and it's one from disunity to one of unity, okay? And it's obvious because hell, everyone's fighting each other, okay? Even though virtual is kind of in charge, not everyone obeys him, and there's all of a trail going on, right? So Menos is saying Dante, hey, this guy, Virgil, don't trust him. And Virgil's like, shut up, okay? And we'll see a lot of this unity in hell. But when we go to heaven, we'll see that it is, we've been in heaven. And like, so we know it is

coherent. We know that it is unified. And everyone's speaking with one voice, okay, on behalf of God. Yes. The other question is, could an afterlife of complete nothing is for eternity, the worst version of hell. Could you repeat that? I didn't catch that. Could an afterlife of complete nothingness for eternity be the worst version of hell? Of complete nothingness. How do you spell that word?

Nothingness, yes. Would the afterlife be nothingness in eternity? Be the worst version of hell. Be the worst version of hell. No hi-fi. So, okay. So there are two concepts of hell, right? Hell is a place where you feel nothing, where nothing happens.

It's just complete absence. People forget who you are. You cease to exist. And hell is a place. is a place where people are being punished for things that they did for all a fraternity. What do you think is worse? Yeah? Ernie is much worse than just being annihilated. I think the person is saying annihilation of the soul, like you just go into nothing. But then you don't get punished for anything

you did on earth. So I think suffering in hell would be much worse. Yes? You said the first one. Yeah, I think I think I mean like at least in the second one you're being told her right you got something to do with you can and you can still feel I feel like the first one you can you can you literally can feel nothing and I will choose the second or the first one. Yes I feel like this kind of sounds like the layer where like that unbaptized are in because they're basically sighing and I'm like they don't receive physical punishment. You know, that's a really, no, no, no, no.

I mean, like, limbo is basically like a very nice place. Okay, it's not a punishment. Okay. All right. Yes? Yeah, I think the limbo is kind of thing just like waiting room, right? You do know what happens? No, no, it's not a waiting room.

It's a retirement community. Okay. It's a very nice retirement. That's like literally what it is, okay? Okay. Yes? So Augustine would say that in hell, you still have your ego, and your ego, this is the Schopenhauer idea, the will to live. So the ego refuses to give up. Yes.

So in hell, they couldn't even wrap their mind around this idea of an ether, of an annihilation. Yeah. Because you're going to be somewhere. And so if they don't, they're in hell because they are turning away from God. They would feel whatever. want to be near God. And so they're in hell because it's the first place from God. But they don't want to be nothing because they still want to be an ego. Yeah. So this is a really hard problem to solve because I think intuitively being annihilated, being lost forever, like people

don't even remember who you are. It's actually the worst thing. Because even if you're in hell, there is a bit of hope, right? You're still part of the culture. You're still part of the cosmos, but to be annihilated means that your soul is now not dissipated. It's like you're gone forever, okay? So I would agree with that thought, like the idea of annihilation is the worst possible thing to happen. And how do you live a life of annihilation? What leads you to annihilation? So bring back this Dante.

What allows you to be forgotten? Come on. Yes? Send you anywhere or you lost your ego completely you don't want you want to see no no why you forgot it No one loves you that's not because no one loves you're not living by the principle of your limonia and erity Okay because you've lived a pointless life Understand because your life you just chose the easiest thing to do no one remembers who you are Maybe your family does but over time your family will will will forget who you

you are okay so it's implied in the divine comedy that most of us will be annihilated okay most of us will even make it to hell because you you need to do something with your life to make it to hell and if you did nothing in your life then that's actually worse than hell you just be forgotten and in fact if you read the divine comedy very closely there's certain individuals that you think should appear in a certain place but doesn't and that's a very powerful technique that Donda uses in order to criticize certain individuals okay so for example in heaven yes I understand

David should be next to God but he's not next to God he isn't heaven but he's not next to God and and he'll be using that a lot another thing is remember the person that Donna is most responding to is Augustine and Augustine is never quoted in the divine comedy right it's almost a form of annihilation did you have a question okay all right okay so yeah so that's something that Donning will tell us okay you've a responsibility to live your life to the fullest because if you don't you'll be forgotten and that's even worse in hell. It's complete annihilation.

Okay, all right. Thank you to the last team for these two questions. We'll come back in an hour, okay? All right. So welcome back. And to start class, I want to emphasize a point, which is, at the very heart of the line comedy is a radical democratic spirit. So if we look at hell, it's basically an of the world he's living in, right? Where everyone's putting for power and where everyone is obedient and passive and afraid. So hell is the best description of the world he's living in. And for Dante, the answer is a radical democracy in which everyone has access to knowledge and to learning.

For Dante, it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter what the results are, what you achieve, what matters is how you choose to live your life. That's why at the very top of heaven are people like Roof, Rachel, and ordinary people who didn't really accomplish much, but who chose to live a life of faith, hope, and love. And that's what he's trying to do. trying to inspire people to live their best life, regardless of their circumstance. And the divine comedy, the reason why there's so many references embedded in the divine comedy, is an act of faith telling people, listen, all the knowledge you need to understand God is in here. If you make the effort, if you act with faith, love, and hope, you will be able to access heaven yourself. Okay, so that at the very heart of the non-companic is a democratic spirit.

This goes against the elitist mentality of the Inniad, where the principal virtue that the Ineat is trying to convey is piety, obedience. Don't think for yourself. Don't trust your intuition. Just obey the word of God. Just do what the gods tell you. and things will turn out proper, okay? So the Inniad, it's really a struggle of one hero, Innius,

to discover this truth, to discover that it's your emotions, your intuition, your imagination that leads you astray. What sets you on the straight path is obedience to the gods, piety. So how the Inniad starts is, Troy is Troy because of a Trojan horse. And Innius, who loves Troy, wants to rescue his people, but the Greeks are so dominant, right?

And so Venus, his mother, Paris,erman says, there's a mission for you, and the mission is to take your son to Italy, and your family will build the empire of Rome. and Innius obeys, he sees Helen of Troy, and he thinks that it's Helen of Troy that's caused all this misery. So what this is, I mean, the thing about the Indian is it's explicit, okay? It's very hard to interpret the Inniad incorrectly. But the idea is that Helen of Troy caused all this destruction, which means that love caused all this destruction, right?

This is a disease that destroys civilization. And then Ineus obeys and returns home, and him and his family are escaping the golden ships, and his wife, Crescia, decides to care herself. Why? Because Creecia understands that in Italy, Ineus must marry into local royalty in order to found a new dynasty. So she must care her. in order to make this possible. So that's what wife should do. If the husband needs to like, you know, marry up, then like you should just like, you know, kill yourself, right?

Now, Innius goes to Italy, but the queen of the gods, Hera, she's called Jolv in the Ineat, because of Latin. She's angry at Innius and she plots to destroy him. So right away, you understand, all the chief villains in the Indianette are female, okay? Whether it's Helen Troy, whether it's stove. And so Innius gets shipwrecked in Carthage and there he meets the local queen, Ditto. And Ditto falls in love with him, he falls in love with her, and Ineus just wants to settle down in Carthage and live a happy life. The God's hill up there's get really angry at him and says,

Ineis, you moron, we gave you a simple mission, go to Italy. What are you doing here in Carthage? And Ennius obeys, and Ditto is heartbroken. And she's so heartbroken that she kills herself, okay? But before she kills herself, she makes a vow. And her vow is, we the Carthaginians will always try to destroy Rome, okay? because Innes broke my heart. And so as I die, my final wish to my people is to always set war on Rome.

This is important because historically, Rome will destroy cottage, right? But what Virgil is saying is, well, the blame isn't us Romans. The blame is ditto because she's this crazy bitch, okay? And love is just a disease. So again, thematically, it's not that hard. to interpret the INIAD and the INIAD becomes a basis for Western civilization for about a thousand years until the rise of Dante so I want to do is I want to read certain passages from the INIAD okay so we're going to so let me set the

scene Ditto and Innius already married they already had sex they're betrothed to each other and the gods tell Ineus you have to go to Italy so Innius being a guy decides oh I'll just sneak away okay I'm not to tell you though I'm gonna sneak sneak away but she's Queen of Carthage and she kind of figures out very quickly oh Innes is trying to sneak away he's trying to run away okay so she confronts Innius and this is what she says okay at last she sails Ania's before he said he said a word. So you traitor, you really believe you'd keep this a secret, this great outrage, steal away in silence from my shores, can nothing hold you back? Not our love, not the pledge when

sealed with our right hands, not even the thought of Dito doomed to accrue death. Why labor to rig your fleet when the winter's raw to risk the deep when the north winds closing in? You cruel, heartless, even if you were not pursuing alien fields and unknown homes, even if ancient Troy were standing still, who'd sail for Troy across such heaving seas? You're running away from me? Oh, I pray you by these tears, by the faith in your right hand, what else have I left myself in all my pain? By our wedding vows, the marriage we began, if I deserve some decency from you now, if anything mine has ever won your heart, pity a great house about to fall. I pray you, if prayers of any place rejects the scheme of yours.

Thanks to you, the African tribes, Numidian warlords hate me. Even my own Tyrians rise against me. Thanks to you, my sense of honor is gone. Me, one and only pathway to the stars, the renown I once held dear. In whose hands my guest do you leave me here to meet my death? Okay, so Ditto is a marching, and he says, like, I love you. I give you everything, okay? I am all yours and you choose to run away.

Once you are gone, I will have no honor. Everyone will laugh at me. They will come, all these different warlords that once were afraid of me, the warrior queen, they will come and they will kill me, they will steal my throne, they will probably rape me, okay? So pity me, okay? It's one of anger but also one of pity.

All right, let's continue. Guest, that's all that remains of husband now, But why do I linger on until my brother Pygmalion batters down my walls? O Yarbus drags me off his sleeve. If only you'd left a baby in my arms, our child, before you deserted me. Some little Enya is playing about our halls, whose features at least would bring you back to me in spite of all. I would not feel so totally devastated, so destroyed. So she's lost all her honor, she's lost her pride, she's lost even her ego.

She's begging him. Like, if you're going to run away, at least impregnant me so that at least I have a memory of you. Okay, that's how desperate and pitiful she's become. Given this, if you're in and as, how should you respond if you were in a situation? Okay. How, well, how should you respond? Well, the human response is to try to comfort her, right? To say, you know, I'm sorry.

I love you. But the gods gave me this mission. I'm afraid of the gods. And so I'll come back or something, okay? But you'll make something up, right? But Innes doesn't do that, okay? Let's keep on going. The queen stopped, but he warned by Jupiter now,

his gaze held steady, fought to master the torment in his heart. At last he ventured a few words. I, you have done me so many kindnesses, and you could count them all. I shall never deny. what you deserve, my queen, never regret my memories of ditto, not while I can recall myself and draw the breath of life. I'll state my case in a few words. I never dreamt I'd keep my flight

a secret. Don't imagine that, nor did I once extend a bridegroom's torch or enter into a marriage pack with you. Sorry, so he's lying, okay? First of all, he did marry her, and also he is trying to keep his escape a secret, okay? So the guy's asses an asshole, but he's also a manipulator. Keep on going. He's gas-leaving her, basically. If the fates had left me free to live my life to arrange my own affairs of my own free will, Troy is the city, first of all, that I'd safeguard Troy and all that's left of my people whom I cherish. The Grand Palace of Priam would stand once more with my own hands. I would fortify a second Troy to house my Trojans in defeat.

But not now. Renian Paul's oracle says that I must seize on Italy's noble land. His Lycean lots say Italy. There lies my love. There lies my homeland now. If you, a Phoenician, fix your eyes on Carthage, a Libyan stronghold.

Tell me, why do you grudge the Trojans their new homes on Italian soil? What is the crime if we seek far off kingdoms too? Okay. So this great hero, Ineus, he's just an abusive asshole, right? Because he's telling her, he's gaslighting her, first of all, but he's also saying, like, if I had a choice,

if it were really my choice, I wouldn't even be with you, okay? I'd be back in Troy doing something, okay? That's where my heart is. So it's the gods who force me to come here, it's a gods that forced me to go to Troy. If it were my choice, I wouldn't, I would not even want you, okay? So of course, yeah, he's,

an asshole thank you I know but this is the this is the in the end and so Ditto spends her all the time in her room and she's not able to sleep okay and so she commits on a path to suicide okay so can you can you read torn in spirit Ditto will not dissolve into sleep her eyes her mind won't yield tonight her torments multiply over and over her passion surges back into heaving waves of rage. She keeps on brooding, obsessions royal her heart. And now what shall I do?

Make a mockery of myself, go back to my old suitors, tempt them to try again. Back the Numidians grovel plead for a husband. Though time and again I scorn to wet their like. Okay, sorry. So some background, okay? So Ditto is from Phoenicia, and she lost a power struggle against her brother.

Her brother killed her husband, Sequeas. Dido escapes to Carthage and she builds this great city, Carthage. And all the local warlords, African warlords, admire her. And the legend is they propose marriage to her. And responds, she decides to kill herself, okay? She builds a pyre and she burns herself alive. And she becomes, in the eye of the Carthage, the great warrior queen, okay? Someone who loves her husband so much, someone who loves her people so much,

that she would rather die than yield and surrender. And because of her example, because of her legacy, she becomes the founder of the greatest empire of Africa at this time. Okay? So this is how Dido is remembered historically. And what Virgil is doing is he's changing the legacy of Dido to make her this pathetic, you know, betrayed woman. Okay?

I keep on going. What then? Trail, the Trojan ships bent to the Trojans every last demand. So pleased are they with all the help, the relief I lent them once. And memory of my service past stands firm and grateful minds. And even if I were willing, would the Trojans allow me to board their proud ships? A woman they hate, poor, lost full, can't you sense it? Grasp it yet, the treachery of Laomedansk breed?

What now? Do I take flight alone, consorting with crews of Trojan Orch? men in their triumph, or follow them out with all my troops of Tyrion, stronging the decks. Yes, hard as it was to uproot them once from Tyre. How can I force them back to see once more? Command them to spread their sails to the winds. No, no, die, you deserve it. End your pain with the sword.

You, my sister, you were the first, won over by my tears, to pile these sorrows on my shoulders, mad as I was, to throw me. into my enemy's arms. If only I'd been free to live my life, untested in marriage, free of guilt as some wild beast untouched by pangs like these. I broke the faith, I swore to the ashes of Sikyat. Okay, so as you can see, she is completely insane now, okay?

She, love has driving her insane. So again, the idea here is that love is a curse. It's a disease, you fall to it, and your mind will shatter. Okay, so she's basically designed to kill herself and she wants to kill herself in a way that Ineus will see because what her last will is is to be remembered by Ineus, right? And the way that she's going to force her memory onto Ineus is to kill herself in front of him. That gods know what her intention is so they warn Ineus.

Like get out of here now. Like do not observe her death because it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Okay, keep on reading. Such terrible grief kept breaking from her heart as Ania slept in peace on his ship's high stern. Bent on departing now, all tackle set to sail. And now in his dreams it came again. The god, his phantom, the same features shining clear, like Mercury had to foot, the voice, the glow, the golden hair, the bloom of youth on his limbs. And his voice rang out with warnings once again. Son of the goddess, how can you sleep so soundly in such a cry scene?

So while Ditto is going crazy and she's a lot of mad ting, what is Inia's doing right now? He sound asleep, man. He could care less, man. Right? Keep on going. Can't you see the dangers closing around you now, madman? Can't you hear the west wind ruffling to speed you on? That woman spawns her plots, mulling over some desperate outrage in her heart, lashing her surging her surging,

She's bent on death. Why not flee headlong? Flea headlong all you can. You'll soon see the waves, a chaos of ships, lethal torches flaring the whole coast ablaze. If now a new dawn breaks and finds you still lingering on these shores. Up with you now. Enough delay.

Women's a thing that's always changing, shifting like the wind. With that, he vanished into the black night. Then terrified by the sudden phantom, Ania's wrenching himself from sleep, leaps up and rouses his crews and spurs them headlong on. Quick, up and at it, shipmates, man, the thwarts. Spread canvas fast. A gods come down from the sky once more.

I've just seen him urging us on to sever our mooring cables. Sail at once. We follow you, blessed God, whoever you are. Glad at heart we obey your commands once more. Now help us stand beside us with all your kindness. Bring us favoring stars in the sky to blaze our way. Okay, so again, Innius has been warned by the gods, so he's fleet fled the scene. Ditto has committed to killing herself, and she will make a final prayer before she kills herself, okay?

Can you read, please? That is my prayer, my final cry. I poured out with my own lifeblood and you, my Tyrians, Harry with hatred, all his lie and his race to come, make that offering to my ashes, send it down below. No love between our peoples ever. No packs of peace. Come, rising up from my bones, you avenger still unknown,

to stalk those Trojan settlers, hunt with fire and iron now or in time to come. Whenever the power is yours, shore clash with shore, sea against sea, and sword against sword. This is my curse. War between all our peoples, all their children, endless war.

Okay, so one of the great tragedies of antiquity is the destruction of Carthage, okay? Rome and Carthage fought for dominance over the Mediterranean and they fought three wars in the last war the last the third Punic War Rome extinguishes and annihilates Carthage from the planet okay and so at this time Carthage is a great civilization and the Romans now have to explain why this happened and now Virgil explains it's because love took hold of Ditto, destroyed her mind, and it made her so angry that not only did it,

it condemned her to death, but it condemned her entire people to death. It is because of this madness, that is why the Carthaginians attacked Rome, and Rome had to defend itself, and Rome recognized that only by defeating and destroying all of Carthage can Rome ever be saved. Okay? So this is the madness of love. Not only it will condemn you to death, but it will condemn your entire civilization to death. Okay, so Ditto kills herself.

And now what's going to happen is that basically, Innes has forgotten her, right? Because Ineis has this mission from the gods. And he understands that in order to fulfill his mission, he needs a prophecy. He needs to talk to his father who is dead. He needs to go into the underworld to receive this prophecy. When he goes to the underworld, who does he meet?

Diddle, okay? Right? So this is going to be their last encounter together. And let's see what happens to Dido, right? And wandering there among them, wounds still fresh. Phoenician Dido drifted along the endless woods as the Trojan hero paused beside her, recognized her through the shadows, a dim misty figure, as one when the month as young may see or seem to see the new moon,

moon rising up through banks of clouds. That moment, Ania's wept and approached the ghost with tender words of love. Traged ditto. So was the story true that came my way? I heard that you were dead. You took the final measure with a sword. Oh, dear God, was it I who caused your death? What an asshole this guy is, right? He's like, wasn't me? Did you care stuff for me? I didn't know. Okay, it doesn't get worse than this, okay? I keep on going on. I swear by the stars, by the powers on high, whatever faith one swears by here in the depths of earth,

I left your shores, my queen, against my will. Yes, the will of the gods that drives me through the shadows now, these moldering places so forlorn, this steep, unfathomed night, their decrees have forced me on, nor did I ever dream my leaving could have brought you so farlorn, much grief. Stay a moment, don't withdraw from my sight. Running away from whom? This is the last word that fate allows me to say to you, the last. Anias with such appeals with welling tears tried

to soothe her rage, her wild fiery glance, but she, her eyes fixed on the ground, turned away. Her features no more moved by his pleas as he talked on then if she were set in stony flint or Perian marble rock. And at last she tears herself away. his enemy forever fleeing back to the shadowed forest where Sikias, her husband long ago, answers all her anguish, meets her love with love. But Ania is no less struck by her unjust fate, escorts her from afar with streaming tears and pities her as she passes. Okay, so Innes is trying to have a conversation with her, but she does not speak. What this is important is that at this time in history, the difference between a free individual,

A citizen and a slave is that a citizen has a right to speak. A citizen is literally someone who has the right to speak before other people. So losing speech, losing the capacity to speak, it is worse than death. It is slavery. So love has not only killed Ditto and killed her civilization, but it's made her a slave. All right. So let's think about this. This is the Ineat.

This is Virgil writing about Ditto. Did Virgil know Ditto in real life? I mean, like, I mean, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, I put this, I phrase it incorrect, okay? Who is Ditto? Who is she? We know who Beatrice is, right? But who is Ditto? Yeah, I understand that, right?

But like, when you write, you have to use a model, right? So who do you think Ditto is really? Do you mean? Virgil's muse. I would say it's the opposite. Why? Why? If you have a muse, what are you doing?

You're praising her, right? But here, Virgil is showing how mad Ditto is. So who do you think this person is? Hmm? His X. Right. His, it could be an X, Y. But what, but I mean like clearly Virgil hates this person, right?

Otherwise you can't write like this. So what did she do to make Virgil angry at her? Maybe she is an example to him. Like he's trying to use her as an example to maybe not betray a bunch of people for your love. Okay, so we've already established. In order for Donny to write about Beatrice, Beatrice had to be a real person, okay? That would be real emotions between these two people. So Ditto is a real person.

And it could be an X-Y, but something had to happen in order for Virgil to hate her this much. And what was it probably? Virgil was probably embarking on his own personal journey, but felt that she was impeding him by being overly emotional? No. I don't think that's what it is, yes? Oh, I know it. She was unfaithful to him. Yeah, she betrayed him, right? You understand?

This sort of hatred can only be generated through treachery, right? Or possibly even denial, right? Where she, Virgil wanted her to be his muse. He wanted to write poetry about her. And she's like, Virgil, you're kind of ugly, man. Get away from me, please. You're stalking me now. I want to call the police.

Don't bother me anymore, okay? And so this love for her becomes hatred, right? But this creates an interesting paradox because it was a similar situation with Dante, where Dante loved Beatrice, but they couldn't be together. And then ultimately Beatrice died. And Dante was not like, you deserved it, bitch, okay? Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, but I forget we have kids in the room, but he didn't do that, right? He was like, no, I still love you, Beatrice.

Whereas Virgil is like, yeah, you deserved it, man. What's the difference? Yes? I just want to ask a question because I feel like Virgil doesn't really hate Diddle. because like if you if you look at the line um Sakaias her husband long ago answers all her anguish meets her love with love so like basically she's well she is in the underworld but she it looks like she gets to live happily ever after and also like I feel like there is clear irony towards Aeneas like treachery so I think

And also, like, Dido's love for Ania's is not, like, natural love. It's actually, like, forced onto her by the gods, by Venus and Hera. So I feel like she is more like the victim in the Aeneid. Yeah, well, yeah. So everyone agrees that Ditto is the victim here, okay? But if it is true that she has, she's happy where she is. What she she does she do when she sees Ineus? Forgive him.

Okay. But what should she do first? Hmm? You should talk to him, respond to him? Okay, how? Yes? Oh, you think I was still broken heart over you, but no, I'm fine. Yeah, I mean, like, she has to do something, right?

Yeah. Slap him or punch him or curse him or just say, ha, I don't care about you anymore, okay? But she needs to show him, because of her need for vengeance, that I moved on from you. The fact that she failed to speak, the fact that she failed to respond, probably suggests she's basically lost her hope. You understand? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

She's lost who she is. And that's what Virgil is saying. Love is toxic, okay? And so I would also point out, like, Virgil has given her the worst possible punishment because she's lost her pride. She lost her sense of self. She's being a slave now, right? So I think the underlying emotion is Virgil hates ditto.

Probably gets ditto thinks he's ugly. But again, I mean, you know, it's a paradox because, again, Dante never costumated with Beatrice. But he still writes poetry to her and he elevates her to heaven. And it's the opposite with Virgil who never consummate with Ditto, but in response, he casts her to hell. Right? How can we explain what's going on? Yes? Maybe Dante sees Beatrice's separation from him as involuntary while Virgil thinks that Dittal just kind of refuse him voluntarily?

Okay, yes? The pursuit that Virgil might have wanted to pursue Ditto or whoever that person is in real life and just failed to do so. And so there's this hate, which is true, but there's also some nuanced love in there because he couldn't get her. No, but I understand. I'm saying that Dante had a similar situation, right? But Dante's, it was, again, it was separated, but he couldn't do much about it, I guess. Okay, so we know the story of Dante and Beatrice. We don't know the story of Virgil and whoever this ditto is, okay?

So we're making a certain assumptions. All right, so I'm sensing based on what we've learned so far, how can we most simply explain the economy, right? Let me ask you this question, yes? One's love, one's not. Exactly, but can explain. With love it's not true, I guess, in Dante. terms love the love of God is not possessive it is not territorial it's not

vengeful so and whatever Virgil had was not love okay so if you if like Donnie truly love Beatrice and Beatrice says to you Donna you're ugly and I met this really hot guy what should Donnie's response be oh like I'm happy for you exactly right you understand that's your only proper response I'm happy for you because all I care about is your happiness. Right? So for Virgil to say, you know what? You betrayed me?

What does that tell us about Virgil? He doesn't love this person, okay? What does he really want? Control this person, you understand? That's a difference between love and power. Love is about you giving, powers about you take it. So the fact that this person, Ditto, either refused him or portrayed him, made him so angry that he turned her into Ditto in the Inniad. Okay?

But if you read it, you can't help but feel tremendous pity for Ditto. Okay. Does it make sense? Yes? So you're saying you can't help but feel pity for ditto and dido. And so that's, I agree with that. I wonder, Dido is clearly symbolic of Carthage. Aeneas is clearly symbolic of Rome. Virgil had to take these back to Augustus and be like, what do you think about my next chapter of the need?

And he's, it seems like Augustus is like, yeah, great. Dido's in hell, and we want Carthage in hell. but just looking at the literary justice of this it's easy for a reader to be like Annius is the bad guy here he's the liar he's a manipulator is a jerk Dido gets unjust

punishment going to hell so as the reader we're siding with the symbolic Carthage so is and so I understand that the Greeks were famous for like the five-act play Aristotle wrote Poetics Romans were famous for turning away from that.

And so they might be like, ha, ha, ha, we're the winners here. We're so cool and we're such great writers, where Greeks would be like, you're doing it. You're doing poor, right. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. If you were any reader and you know the story, you can only feel sympathy for Ditto, right? And that's why in the Roman tradition, you were not allowed to question this, okay? You had to believe not only Ineus is the hero, you had to monitor yourself off him.

And the only way to resolve this paradox, this translation is by simply obeying. Don't question, don't think for yourself, obey. If you think that it is Ditto who is the hero of the story, and quite honestly a lot of people do think Diddle is the hero of the story, then it is because Satan has taken you, okay? It's because you're being possessed by Satan. by Satan, right? Yes? So you are saying in a polytheist in an age before Christianity and age before this dualistic thinking either your evil or your good the Romans were already damning people to Satan? Okay so the Roman culture believes that the

organizing principle of society is piety okay obedience And the very point of the Inniad is to monitor yourself of Innius, right? So, yes, intuitively, your problems with how Ineus behaved, but that it shows you that your intuition is wrong. So stop thinking for yourself and just obey your teacher, obey your parent, obey the emperor. Okay, so that's a central message. And this becomes basically the central organizing principle for the Catholic Church. Because Paul and Augustine will take this idea and they will systemize it and make it theological. Does that make sense?

This is something that makes me curious. So you said in this passage here with this paragraph here, it's very clear why someone might feel sympathy for Ditto. And something I'm wondering about is that Virgil is not a bad writer. he knows exactly what he's writing so if he's trying to make dittle the bad guy here why did he make her easy to sympathize with why did he not make her still evil yeah that's a good question okay all right so let me explain what's going on so the thing about poets is they are prophets meaning that whatever comes from them comes from the divine okay that's why poetry is beauty and truth in body because the poet is just channeling

the vine. But there are certain cases where the divine is under the rest. For example, you're called before the emperor of the Roman Empire and you're told, Virgil, you're the greatest poet in the world. I'm going to give you a $2,000 if you write the poem in a way I want. And then Virgil's like, sure. And then while he's chained the vine, Augustine is like, the vine is like, the vine is great. this is great poetry, but it's not what I want, man. And I'll give you $1 or I'll cut up your head. Your choice, man. Okay?

And that is why the Inniad is structured the way it is. It's a complete mess if you actually read it. There are a lot of contradictions and instances in the Inniad because clearly the poet is not working like just out of his own free will. He's working under a lot of, under a lot of duress. In fact, let me finish. In fact, Virgil, his last request before he died was, please burn this manuscript. Because he knows for a fact, he's going to burn it in hell for this.

Okay? He knows. He said to Augustus, please burn this. okay yeah I want a $200 but now that I'm gonna die I know I'm gonna go to hell I'd rather you burn this okay yes why why would Caesar want you to pity ditto Caesar the emperor wants to create a new theology for Rome right so he needs a Bible in the Bible certain themes have to be explicit, so that he can force these ideas onto people. Because it's poetry, because the poet is summing the divine, a lot of this divine divinity

cannot be fully processed. Does that make sense? So there are going to be passages that leak out that create inconsistencies. And so, in modern eyes, we see Dito is sympathetic. We see that Ineis is a jerk. But if you are a emperor, you have certain expectations. And so you're going to see this work in a certain way that conforms your expectations. And if we read the entirety of the Inniad, most of it, 9% of it, 99% of it is conforming to its expectations okay he's not smart enough to actually know about the leakages because he lacks

sympathy he lacks empathy okay the thing about politicians powerful people is like they really lack empathy which means that they lack the capacity to read with nuance and with subtlety okay does that make sense all right okay um so um so do you guys i understand what's going on okay all right so it's This is not Virgil's intention, it is not August's intention that we sympathize with Dittle, but because it's poetry, it has a life of its own. And so there are certain parts that are beyond control. Okay.

All right, so let's continue divine comedy. Conto 5, line 67. See Paris, Tristan, and he pointed out a name to me more than a thousand shades departed from our life because of love. No sooner had I heard my teacher name the ancient ladies in the knights that pity seized me and I was like a man astray. My first words, poet, I should willingly speak with those two who go together there and seem so lightly carried by the wind. And he to me, you'll see when they draw closer to us and then you may appeal to them by that love which impels them they will come. No sooner had the wind bent them toward us than I urged on my voice. O battered souls, if one does not forbid it, speak with us.

Even as doves, when summoned by desire, borne forward by their will, moved through the air with wings uplifted still, to their sweet nest. Those spirits left the ranks where Ditto suffers approaching us through the malignant air. So powerful had been my loving cry. Okay, stop. Okay, all right. So at this stage, Dante is a student of Virgil, and Donny worships Virgil. But if we read the text carefully and critically, we know that not all is what it seems, okay? And here, in these few lines, Dante commits an act of rebellion against Virgil.

He commits an act of defiance against Ditto. Sorry, against Virgil. What is it? Being Ditto? Yeah, he names Ditto. Okay, I do you understand. Because remember what happened was that Virgil would go on about a thousand different people. He would name all of them, but he would not name Ditto because he hates Ditto.

And honestly, he's ashamed of what he did to Ditto, right? And so Dante, what he's doing is, away from the speech of Virgil, he names Ditto somewhere else. to restore Ditto. Does that make sense? You see the nuance here, right? So it's an act of rebellion, it's that act of defiance that foreshadows paradise, okay? What is to come? All right, keep on going? Line 82. Even as doves, when summoned by desire, born forward by their will, move through the air with wings uplifted still to their sweet nest. Those spirits left the ranks where Ditto suffers approaching us through the malignant air so powerful, had been my loving cry.

Verse 88. A living being gracious and benign, who through the darkened air have come to visit our souls that stained the world with blood. If he who rules the universe were a friend to us, then we should pray to him

to give you peace, for you have pitied our atrocious state. Whatever pleases you to hear and speak will please us too to hear and speak with you. Now while the wind is silent in this place, the land where I was born lies on that shore

to which the poet together with the waters that follow it descends to final rest. Love that can quickly seize the gentle heart took hold of him because of the fair body taken from me. How that was done still wounds me. Love that releases no beloved from loving took hold of me so strongly through his beauty that as you see it has not left me yet.

Love led the two of us unto one death. Kaina waits for him who took our love. These words were born across from them to us. When I had listened to those, injured souls, I bent my head and held it low until the poet asked of me, what are you thinking? Okay, so Virgil says to Dante, if you really understand hell, you should talk to these different souls, okay? So Dante talks to these two souls. These are two people from his own life in Italy, and they said that, well, you know, we fell in love and we went, we looked together, but my husband found out, and he

killed us both. Okay? And so Virgil asked, what do you think of this? Okay, and let's listen to Dantes-Swant. Line 112. When I replied, my words began. Alas, how many gentle thoughts, how deep a longing had let them to the agonizing path.

Then I addressed my speech again to them and I began. Francesca, your afflictions moved me to tears of sorrow and of pity, but told me in the time of gentle size with what and in what way that love allow you to recognize your still in certain longings. And she to me, there's no greater sorrow than thinking back upon a happy time and misery, and this your teacher knows. Yet, if you long so much to understand the first root of our love, then I shall tell my tale to you as one who weeps and speaks. One day, to pass the time away, we read of Lancelot, how love had overcome him. We were alone and we suspected nothing. We were alone,

and we suspected nothing. And time and time again, that reading led our eyes to meet and made our faces pale. And yet one point alone defeated us. When we had read how the desired smile was kissed by one who was so true a lover, this one who never shall be parted from me while all his body trembled, kissed my mouth, a gal halt, indeed, that book and he who wrote it too, that day we read no more. and while one spirit said these words to me, the other wept so that because of pity I fainted as if I had met my death, and then I fell as a dead body falls.

Okay, all right, so the story is that Francisco and her lover. At this time in history, there's something called Courtney Love, which is like, you know, just romantic poetry, you write romantic poetry, you declare your love to someone else, but you don't consummate it, okay? This is very common at this time, that's quite a love tradition, where you profess your love, but it's not cosmic, it's not sexual at all. And so, Francisco and her lover, they're reading this poetry, this romance, and then they have the urge to kiss each other, which pisses off the husband and they both get killed.

What is the difference between love and lust? What is the difference between love and lust? Yes? In speaking from definition, one is an emotion, a thing of a soul, and the other thing is a thing that is physical, but I think in this context it actually means love is when you wish the best for someone selflessly, and lust is when you wish to process them. Okay, all right.

Anyone else? So lust also comes from a place of power, right, of control. Right? Anyone else? Yes? So love is like a strong emotion where lust is like impulse, I think. Like an impulse to have sex or to, you know, to follow your feelings. Yes, okay, so it's impulsive.

It's just something you do on the spirit of the moment. You do it without reflection. Okay, but why is that a sin? Why would that be a bad thing? Yes? Because you want to control others? Not necessarily, right? Yes?

Because, last, it's the original thing. Original thing means that it's just not a real thing, just original. It means it can cause the thing. So maybe last, it's something which can cause this thing, can cause people to make mistake. Like, you lust someone means they want to have sex with someone or maybe, but that is desire.

It says desire can let people to do something badly. So like a rape or whatever. Yes? Because when you lust for someone that is an objectification of that person, you objectify them. They are no longer an individual. Okay.

All right. Can you explain some more? For example, like let's say let's example of prostitution right if you have lust for let's say a sex worker then you are not treating them

in a way that sees them as human but as more like an object so it objects it takes away their sort of the dignity that they they have as a human right okay let's carry let's kill this further

okay We're trying to figure out what the difference is between love and lust. And again, it's not that clear. You know, Donnie is completely confused by this. That's why Donnie is faint because he's like, what's going on here? I don't really understand why lust would necessarily be a sin, right? Isn't it possible for you to lust someone and then you love someone, right? You first, if you see someone beautiful, yeah, you're like, you know, I want her number.

I want to go talk to her. That's lust. But then you talk to her, you guys have coffee and you're like, wow, she's my soulmate. Now you're in love. So doesn't lust lead to love? What can someone explain to me what's going on? Yes? Um, maybe another part is the lust focuses on the outward image while love is more about like emotional connection and getting to know them better

Yes, uh, I think lust is based on the flash is based on the body, but love is just based on the devotion to based on the hope or you know, inspiration or something But I'm confused, right? Because it's just like, like, how do you find love in the first place? Right? I mean, like, yes? So if God is love, wouldn't love be like you're bringing God into the relationship and then bringing back to the fall, Adam and Eve ate the apple and they saw they were naked and were ashamed. And so you're hiding from God, you're in shame, you're bringing the ego into lust.

Yeah, okay. So that's a really, so I'm hearing two really interesting ideas. Okay, first is that lust causes you to objectify, which is to simplify and possess someone. Also, love is about giving, right? It's about letting go to your ego, whereas lust is about fulfilling your ego. Okay. But I'm still confused as to why lust would necessarily be a sin.

Why would it be bad, right? Because, like, let's, because like, let's expand this, okay? Heaven is where love is. Love means no fear, right? So if it's a sin, it is what it's doing is, it's causing love to be degraded, and it's causing fear to come into a place, right? So that's what a sin is. So why would lust do this?

And again, of all the sins, lust, we're going to descend down to hell. So lust is like the least light of all the sins, but it's still a sin. So I'm confused as to why Francisco, you know, she falls in love and she, they kiss and then she's killed. Why isn't necessarily her fault? What's a sin here? Yes? So before you mentioned that free will is God's most precious gift to us. and when you're lusting over someone, you are violating your free will,

even if it's in your mind. Like with modern celebrities, some people say very rude things about them in comments. And even while that is legal, it is still a sin because they are already violating these celebrities in their minds. But, I mean, I'm trying to figure out why loving someone and lusting someone, why loving someone would not violate the free will, but lusting someone would violate the free will. Yes?

Yes? Because, like, lusting someone is more driven by your, like, physical drive. And here, like, Francisco, she went over her ability to reason. She basically betrayed her husband, and that is sinful because it's misordered. And love is more, like, driven by your spiritual connection. So it goes beyond lust. It's more of your free will because you personally resonate with this specific person. But, like, lust, technically, anyone who's physically attractive can be.

So is sexes in? A target. Is sexesin? No, but misorders sexes. Okay. All right. Okay, all right. Yeah.

Any more thoughts before we continue? Okay, so what I'm hearing is love is special connection. Less is physical connection. Less is the objectification of someone. love is the appreciation of someone in that person's complexity and contradictions and lust is about possession about controlling someone whereas love is about giving yourself okay so there are lots of differences okay all right let's let's let's let's let's continue Conto 6 upon my mind's reviving it had closed on hearing the lament of those two kind

Since sorrow had confounded me completely, I see new sufferings, new sufferers surrounding me on every side, wherever I move or turn about or set my eyes. I'm in the third circle, filled with cold, unending, heavy, and accursed rain. Its measure and its kind are never changed. Gross hailstones, water gray with filth, and snow comes streaking down across the shadowed air. The earth, as it receives that shower, stinks. Over the souls of those submerged beneath, that mess is an out. landish, vicious beast. His three throats barking, dog-like, Cerberus. His eyes are blood red, breezy black, his beard, his belly bulges, and his hands are claws, his talons tear and flay and

rend the shades. That downpour makes the sinners howl-like dogs. They use one of their sides to screen the other. Those miserable wretches turn and turn. When Cerberus the great worm noticed us, he opened wide his mouth, showed us his fangs. There was no part of him that did not twitch. My guide opened his hands to their full span, plucked up some earth, and with his fists filled full, he hurled it straight into those famished jaws. Just as a dog that barked through his greedy hunger

will then fall quiet when he gnaws his food, intent and straining heart to cram it in. So were the filthy faces that the demon serpress transformed. after he'd stunned the spirits so they wished that they were deaf. Okay, so there's Cyberus who's threatening them and then Virgil basically feeds them, okay? So again, this gives us the idea that Virgil really is the emperor of hell. He's able to control the demons here. Okay, keep on going.

Line 34. We walked across the shades on whom there thuds that heavy rain and set our souls upon their empty images that seem like persons. And all those spirits lay upon the ground except for one who, sat erect as soon as he caught sight of us in front of him. Oh, you who are conducted through this hell, he said to me, recall me if you can for you before I was unmade were made. And I to him, it is perhaps your anguish that snatches you out of my memory so that it seems that I have never seen you. But tell me who you are, you who are set in such a dismal

place, such punishment, if other pains are more and nuns more disgusting. And he to me, your city, one soul so full of envy that its sack has always built, that city held me in the sunlit life. The name your citizens gave me was Chaco, and for the damning sin of gluttony, as you can see, I languish in the rain. And I, a wretched soul, am not alone, for all of these have the same penalty for this same sin, and he said no more. I answered him, Chaco, your suffering so waits on me that I'm forced to weep. But tell us. me if you know what end awaits the citizens of that divided city. Is any just man there? Tell me the reason why it has been assailed by so much schism. And he to me, after long controversy, they'll

come to blood. The party of the woods will chase the other out with much offense, but then within three sons, they too must fail, at which the other party will prevail using the power of one who tax his sails. This party will hold its head for long and heaping. great hates, great weight upon its enemies, however much they weep indignantly. Two men are just, but no one listens to them. Three sparks that stand on fire every heart are envy, pride, and avariciousness. With this his words, inciting tears were done and I to him. I would learn more from you, I ask you for a gift of further speech.

To Gaiio for Renata, Men So Worthy, Arrigo, Mosca, Jakopal Rusikuchi, and all the rest whose minds bent toward the good, do tell me where they are and let me meet them, for my great longing drives me on to learn if heaven sweetens or health poisons them. And they are among the blackest souls. A different sin has dragged them to the bottom. If you descend so low, there you can see them.

But when you have returned to the sweet world, I pray, recall me to men's memory. I say no more to you, answer no more. Then his straight gaze grew twisted in awry He looked at me a while And bent his heads He fell as low as all his blind companions And my guide said to me

He'll rise no more And full the blast of the angelic trumpet Upon the coming of the hostile judge Each one shall see his sorry tomb again And once again take on his flesh and form And hear what shall resound eternally So did we pass across that squalid mixture Of shadows and of rain

our steps slowed down, talking a while about the life to come, at which I said, and after the great sentence, oh, master, will these torments grow or else be less, or will they just be as intense? And he to me, remember now your science, which says that when a thing has more perfection so much the greater is its pain or pleasure. Though these accursed sinners never shall attain the true perfection, yet they can expect to be more perfect than, then now we took the circling way traced by the road we said much more than I can hear recount we reached the point that marks the downward slope here we found Plutus the great enemy okay so certain points about this passage first of all

who Dante is meeting are people he he knew from his life in Florence okay so a lot of his people with enemies will be here condemned in in hell The other thing is I want to talk about the nature of these punishments in hell. What are these punishments trying to do? Why are they constructed the way it is? Because we were in a circle of lust, and so these people are being whipped around by the wind, right? Now we are in the third circle, which is people are being punished for gluttony. And what is your punishment?

All the rain, they're being rained on, okay? Explain me why rain would be a fitting punishment for gluttony. Uh, yes? So there's a lot of factor here. First of all, there's this saying, the fires of lust. So symbolically, the rain is meant to put out the fires of lust. And not so symbolically, like, imagine you are first-te, because hell is hot, and you're standing in the middle of the rain, and there is no water beneath you, there's no jug of water,

and you just have to open your mouth and let the rain drops fall into your mouth little by little, little, little by little. And no matter how much you want it, no matter how much you wave the rain towards you with your hands, no more rain will come than what rain will come. So you can't satisfy your lust. Okay, well, it's raining for all eternity, right? Right, let's visualize this, okay? What is gluttony? What is gluttony?

Yes? Glutony is the narrow sense is eating too much food or eating excessive amounts of food or lavish food. But on a wider definition, it's desiring too much and like indulging in excessive pleasures. Yes, okay, yeah? Not being able to stop. Yeah, not stop being, always desiring, just not able to restrain yourself. Okay, that's what gluttony is. Why would...

Yes? How is gluttony different from greed? How is gluttony different from greed? That's a great question, okay? Anyone? What are you doing with greed? We will actually enter the circle of greed, right? Yes?

Greed. Greed might be personal gain at the expense of others, but like gluttony is just not being able to control yourself. That's right. that's right okay so greed you are stealing from others essentially does that make sense right whereas glennany is you're just uh yes could you say that greed is wanting a lot of things and gluttony is wanting a lot of the same thing um well i mean like if you want money right you're still greedy right it's it's right so like but like like the main issue is greed is you actually

taking from others. Does that make sense? Yes? I don't know so much about that. Like to me it feels like greed is when you take things and gluttony is when you take things and then you consume them. So for example if you see a person who is overeating, like obviously overeating and wasting food and maybe vomiting it out, you wouldn't say wow, you're so greedy. You would say you're a glutton. And if- But that's what we're saying. Gluttony is like you just want too much. Where's greeting you're taking from others.

No, like gluttony is when you take things and you consume them, you reduce them to nothing. And greed is when you take things. And you're taking these things from where? Like there's an extra step after gluttony. That's what I'm trying to point out. Okay, all right, all right. So let's continue, okay?

So gluttony is you want too much, and you can never stop. from running too much so why would raining on you be the punishment what's the logic of this make you awake and dull you of your desire though you of your desire huh yes be given to you as a punishment yes let's rain yes can you explain this so it's kind of like a tooth for a tooth so if you are gladness you want more and more and more and never satisfied you so raining more and more and more more on you is like the right punishment for you.

But why would it be the right punishment for you? I answer that that's a punishment, right? But why would that be the right punishment? Because it never satisfy you. It's just raining on you. You don't consume it or do anything with it. Do you think people enjoy being rained on? No.

Right? So what's going on here? I think that's, which is why I mentioned not being able to stop. To me, a gluttonous person is the person that, you know, We all know that, right? But you just keep it, you're just not able to stop. Okay, all right, guys. Again, again, you have to use your imagination, okay? So the sin is gluttony, okay?

The sin is gluttony. And I want to, and people who are gluttonous tend to be fat, right? Gluttony, okay? Fat. All right, so let's just think of different punishments. Okay, we don't have to think about the logic or justice of it, but let's think of like how, If we were designing hell and you know this person is fat or glutinous,

what could we do to this person? Okay, okay, nothing to eat, sure, okay? Nothingness, right? You are just in a prison by yourself, like solitary confinement. There's nothing to do, okay? That's one possible punishment. Okay? What else?

Feed them to death. Excuse me? Feed them to death. Okay, yeah, like just too much food, okay? So like you just balloon out, right? Just like cake after cake. It's like, have you guys ever seen the Homer? Sorry, the Simps' episode, when Homer's in hell?

And then like, and then the devil's like, ha, you like donuts, right? And so what they do is they create this machine which feeds donuts to Homer for all of eternity. It's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, and then the devil's like, eventually he's going to vomit. But Homer's like in ecstasy, okay? He's like, oh yes, yes, yes. Me. Then you. Okay, maybe like let them to do some exercise.

Good, yeah, treadmill, man. This is awesome. You're fat? I'll make you exercise for the rest of your life until you're fin, right? Uh, yes. Maybe just put food out of your range. You can see it, but it cannot. Yeah, that's a really good punishment, right?

Like, like you're on a treadmill, and there's, there's a cake in front of you and you're running around as fast as you can, but you can never actually touch the cake, okay? So yeah, so maybe cake out of reach. Yeah, these are great punishments. What else? Yes? I just have to point something out. Can you not do this, please?

I have to do this because I find this really upsetting. People are fat for a lot of reasons other than gluttony, and I think that reducing fat equals gluttony, I think it's really reductive. This is just this is an exercise. I think it's really offensive. Okay, all right. You're gluttoned me, okay? So like, oh, you're not fat, but you're glutton in this, okay? All right?

Okay, I hate to say this, but every day I teach you four hours. And it's a really hard to teach for four hours. Okay, I also have to cause you thinking. So if you're interrupting me or you're trying to divert my attention, it causes my brain to be even more fatigued. It is exhausting. Okay, well, I'm telling you what's happening because this is my sixth day. Let me answer all the questions of that lady, your problem.

Okay, okay, all right. You can't have some questions, okay? I'll answer everyone, I promise you. Okay, all right. Okay, all right, let's keep on going, okay? The kick is out of reach, you are running very, very far. Okay, so these are all great punishments, okay? And what they're doing is punishing.

You understand? It's punishing you for your gluttony. And that's what we think hell is. Hell is about punishment. Yeah, go ahead. Can I, I mean, I'm just linking this to lust and the punishment for lust. Yeah, which is like being world around. It's almost like the consequence of what you cause to others in the world.

Yes, exactly, okay? So we think that hell is a place of punishment, but for Dante, hell is also a place of justice, but redemptive justice, to force you into reflection, to force you to recognize the hurt you've caused others. Does that make sense? So the, so you are, you have gluttony and it's raining all. on you and it never stops. So what is telling you is that is just an expression of your gluttony, a rain that can't stop.

Does that make sense? That's why hell is designed the way it is. It's not designed to punish. Because if you want to punish, there are like a million ways we could punish anyone, right? We just have to use our imagination. These are great punishments. And we would laugh at this. But the point of hell is not to punish.

point of hell is to force reflection to force people to recognize what the problem is and what they can do about it okay doesn't make sense okay any questions all right yes i mean i uh yes hell that the the um tornado in for lust and this one for gluttony but also in heaven too picardia is also stuck in it in a loop i just noticed the pattern even between infernal and and and there is symmetry here i'm just saying yes exactly okay yes you're exactly right yes how does being in a tornado um help you reflect no no it's it's trying to manifest visualize for you the problem with lust and the idea is that you are inconstant okay you always change your mind okay that's a problem with lust. Like if you see something beautiful you want it but then you something more beautiful,

you want that, okay? Yes? We have a very interesting comment from the live string. Okay. And one person mentioned that she thinks that the punishment is quite similar. We can take the Japanese animation film spirited away. Okay. Kuan as an example because she thinks the peaks in the film is quite similar to this punishment. and she Greed is like something saying like I want more and God's name is like I can't stop. It's just like the pigs in the film.

Good, yeah exactly, right? So greed is like I want more, I want something from others. Glennies, I can't stop. Okay, good, okay. All right, but doesn't make sense to you, okay? Hell is constructed not as a place to make you afraid to punish you.

It's hell is a place constructed to force you into seeing for yourself the problems and dangers of your sin okay does that make sense okay all right yes consequence and the principle behind your sin to make you realize the sin's essence and what it does to you or your body or the others around you yes okay right so again it's a put a mirror to your face okay all All right, let's keep on reading. Canto seven. Papi Satan, Papa Satan, Alepe.

So Plutus, with his grating voice, began, the gentle sage, aware of everything, said reassuringly. Don't let your fear defeat you. For whatever power he has, he cannot stop are climbing down this crag. Then he turned back to Plutus' swollen face and said to him, be quiet, cursed, wolf, let your vindictiveness feed on yourself.

He's no, his is no random journey to the deep. It has been willed on high where Michael took revenge upon the arrogant rebellion. As sails inflated by the wind collapsed and tangled in a heap when the mass cracks, so that ferocious beast fell to the ground. Thus we made our way down to the fourth ditch to take in more of that desponded shore where all the universe is ill is stored. Justice of God, who has amassed as many strange tortures and travails as I have seen, why do we let our guilt consume us so, even as waves that break above Caribis, each shattering the other when they meet, so must the

spirits here dance, their round dance. Here more than else where I saw multitudes to every side of me, their howls were loud while wheeling weights. They used their chests to push. They struck against each other at that point, each turned around and wheeling back those weights, cried out, why do you hoard? Why do you squander? So did they move around the sorry circle from left and right to the opposing point. Again, again, they cried their chant of scorn.

And so when each of them had changed positions, he circled halfway back to his next joust. And I, who felt my heart almost pierced through requested. Master, show me now what shades are these and tell me if they all were clerics, those tundured ones who circle on our left. And he to me, all these two left and right were so squint-eyed of mind in the first life, no spending that they did was done with measure. Their voices sparked this out with clarity

when they have reached the two points of the circle where their opposing guilt divide their ranks. These to the left, their heads bereft of hair were clergymen and popes and cardinals with him whom Averis works its excess. And I to him, master among this kind, I certainly might hope to recognize some who have been bespattered by these crimes. And he to me, that thought of yours is empty,

that the undiscerning life that made them filthy now renders them unrecognizable. For all eternity they'll come to blows. These here will rise up from their sepulchres with fists clenched tight, and these with hair-cropped clothes. Ill-giving and ill-keeping have robbed both of the fair world and set them to this fracas.

What that is like, my words need not embellish. Now you can see, my son, how briefs the sport of all those goods that are in fortune's care. for which the tribe of men contend and brawl for all the gold that is wherever was beneath the moon could never offer rest to even one of these exhausted spirits master i asked of him now tell me too this fortune whom you've touched upon just now what she who clutches so all the world's goods and he to me oh unenlightened creatures how deep the ignorance that hampers you i want you to digest my word on this Who made the heavens who gave them guide

Was he whose wisdom transcends everything That every part may shine unto the other? He had the light apportioned equally similarly For worldly splendors. He ordained a general minister and guide to shift From time to time those empty goods from nation unto nation clan to clan in ways that human reason can't prevent. Just so when people rule,

One languishes obeying the decision she has given which like a serpent in the grass is hidden. Your knowledge cannot stand against her force, for she foresees in judges and maintains her kingdom as the other gods do theirs. The changes that she brings are without respite. It is necessity that makes her swift, and for this reason men change states so often.

She's the ones so frequently maligned, even by those who should give praise to her. They blame her wrongfully with words of scorn, But she's blessed and do not hear these things, for with the other primal beings happy, she turns her sphere and glories in her bliss. But now let us descend to greater sorrow, for every star that rose when I first moved is setting now.

We cannot stay too long. We crossed the circle to the other shore. We reached a foaming water course that spills into a trench formed by its overflow. That stream was even darker than deep purple, and we, together with those shadowed waves, moved downward and along a strange pathway. When it has reached the foot of those malign, gray floats,

that melancholy stream descends forming a swamp that bears the name of sticks. An I, who was intent on watching it, could make out muddied people in that slime, all naked and their faces furious. These struck each other not with hands alone, but with their heads and chest and with their feet, and tore each other peasmeal with their teeth. The kindly master told me, son,

Now see the souls of those whom gangor has defeated, And I should also have you know for certain that underneath the water there are souls Who sigh and make this plain of water bubble, As your eye looking anywhere can tell. Wetched in the slime, they say we had been sullen in the sweet air that's gladdened by the sun. We bore the midst of sluggishness in us, now we're bitter in the blackened mud. This hymn, they have to gurgle in their gullets because they cannot speak it in full words. And so between the dry shore and the swamp, we circled much of that disgusting

pond. Our eyes upon the swallowers of slime. We came at last upon a tower space. Okay, so we are going down in these circles. We encounter people who are greedy. What is their punishment? They have to push rocks around. Okay. In a circle. In a circle. What else? Okay. what else and why would this be a fitting punishment for them again it's really important for us to appreciate the point of these punishments is not to punish but to force reflection okay to force you to recognize the error of your ways so that you can choose to make a better decision okay this is this is about redemptive justice as opposed to to just pure vengeance.

What is the logic of this punishment? Yes? Art for nothing, because you're pushing these rocks around in circles, and it's just that you're greedy, you get a lot of these earthly things, and at the end, it comes down to nothing. You put so much work. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, that's very beautiful.

Thank you, yes. Maybe try to let people redeem, redeem, and try to be salvation or something. yes okay right exactly okay yes anyone else okay okay all right the anger what's punishment for the for the anger they have to wrestle each other in mud okay and and what else and they're submerged underwater yes and what else the swallow swat swine and they're also like are also cannibalizing each other or aren't they also eating each other so so so what's the why is this a

fitting punishment of forgiveness or yeah for forgiveness that means to forgive people yes when you are angry you kind of bite off each other like you're mad at each other you have you want to tour each other apart but you're also like kind of drowning in your own anger that you're following shit basically it's killing your body that's how you a lot of people get cancer all kinds of disease when you're angry exactly okay so you think you are hurting others but you actually hurting yourself you're consuming others but you also yourself in the process okay all right yes I wonder what is the river Stoics doing here why why are they drowned in the rivers Stygs

day okay all right so when you read the divine comedy each of these different realms whether they are inferno proletory or paradise there's always a complex geography to these realms and there are certain democratation points which suggest we are entering a new level okay do you understand so the sins that we've encountered so far whether they be lust bluttony greed anger they're bad but not that bad okay when we cross the river stakes when we enter new territory This is like even worse since. Okay?

So these are things that may make others uncomfortable. They make your life terrible, but they're not actually disrupting the fundamental structure of the universe. Whereas you go low and lower, these people are in fact destroying the very fabric of the universe. Does that make sense? So what Donna is trying to do is trying to separate these different regions of hell as well. Okay. All right.

Okay. Any more questions before we move on? All right. Let's keep on going. Okay. Conto 8. I say continuing that long before we two had reached the foot of that tall tower, our eyes had risen upward towards its summit.

Because of two small flames that flickered there while still another flame returned their signal, so far off, it was. scarcely visible. And I turned toward the sea of all good sense. I said, what does this mean? And what reply comes from that other fire? Who kindled it? And he to me, above the filthy waters,

you can already see what waits for us. If it's not hid by vapors from the marsh, bowstring has not thrust from itself an arrow that ever rushed it swiftly through the airst at the little bark that at that moment I saw as it skimmed toward us on the water, a solitary boatman at its helm. I heard him how Now you're caught, foul soul

Oh, Fligius, Fligius, such a shout is useless this time, my master said. Were yours no longer than it will take to cross the muddy sluice. And just as one who hears some great deception was done to him and then resents it, so was Fligas when he had to store his anger. My guide proceeded me into the boat once he was in, he had me follow him.

There seemed to be. to be no weight until I boarded. No sooner were my guide and I embarked then off, that ancient prow went, cutting water more deeply than it does when bearing others. And while we steered across the stagnant channel before me stood a sinner thick with mud, saying, Who are you? Come before your time? And I to him. I've come, but I don't stay, but who are you, have become so ugly.

He answered, You can see I'm one who heaps, who weeps, and I to him. in weeping and engrieving a cursed spirit may you long remain though you're disguised by filth i know your name then he stretched both his hands out toward the boat at which my master quickly shoved him back saying be off there with the other dogs that done he threw his arms around my neck and kissed my face and said indignant soul blessed is she who bore you in her womb when in the world he was presumptuous there's no good to guilt his memory and so his shade down here is hot with fury. How many up above now count themselves great kings who will wall here like pigs in slime, leaving behind foul memories of their crimes. And I, O master, I'm very eager to see that spirit soused

within this broth before we've made our way across the lake, and he to me, before the other shore comes into view, you shall be satisfied to gratify so fine a wish is right. Soon after I heard I had heard these words, I saw the muddy sinner so dismember him that even now I praise and thank God for it.

They were all shouting, they all were shouting. At Felipe Argenti, at this the Florentine gone wild with spleen began to turn his teeth against himself. We left him there. I tell no more of him, but in my years so loud a wailing pounded that I lean forward, all intent to see.

the kindly master said my son the city that bears the name of dis is drawn near with its grave citizens its great battalions i said i can already see distinctly master the mosques that gleam within the valley as crimson as if they had just been drawn out of the fire he told me the eternal flame burning there appears to make me make them red as you can see within this lower hell so we arrived inside the deep-cut trenches that are the the moats of this despondent land. The ramparts seemed to me to be of iron. But not before we ranged in a wide circuit did we approach a place where that shrill pilot shouted. Get out. The entrance way is here.

Above the gates, I saw more than a thousand who once had reigned from heaven, and they cried in anger. Who is this who without death can journey through the kingdom of the dead? And my wise master made a sign that said he wanted to speak secretly to this. them. Then they suppressed somewhat their great disdain and said, You come alone, let him be gone, for he was reckless entering this realm.

Let him return alone on his mad road or try to if he can, since you has guide across so dark a land you are to stay. Consider reader, my dismay before the sound of those abominable words, returning here seemed so impossible. Oh, my dear guide, who more than seven times has given back to me, my content, and snatched me from deep danger that had menaced. Do not desert me when I'm so undone, and if they will not let us pass beyond, let us retrace our steps together quickly. These were my words, the Lord, who led me there replied,

forget your fear. No one can hinder our passage. One so great has granted it. But you wait here for me and feed and comfort your tired spirit with good hope, for I will not abandon you in this low world. And so he goes on his way. That gentle father has left me there to wait and hesitate,

for yes and no, contend within my head. I could not hear what he was telling them, but he had not been long with them when each ran back into the city, scrambling fast. And these are adversaries, slammed the gates in my Lord's face, and he remained outside, then with slow steps turned back again to me. His eyes turned to the ground,

his brows deprived of every confidence, he said with size. See who has kept me from the house of sorrow. To him he added, to me he added, you though I am vexed must not be daunted. I shall win this contest, whoever tries within to block our way. This insolence of theirs is nothing new. They used it once before and at a gateless secret.

It is still without its both, the place where you made out the fatal text. And now already within that gate and across the circles and alone sends the one who will unlock this realm for us okay so um for the past few cantos we've established that Virgil is the master of hell he's able to navigate it pretty easily these demons obey him they do whatever he tells them he understands the geography of hell very intimately now we cross the river sticks and we enter we are about to enter the city of this okay the this is the home of the fallen angels those who rebel against and now they are in hell this is where it's way to live within this we will find

Lucifer or Satan what's going on here he's trying to get into the city and the demons say screw off this guy Donnie doesn't belong here we'll let you in Virgil but we won't let in Dante and Virgil says let us talk in private so they talk privately and then they're like now he's not coming in okay why do we have this scene what is Dante trying to convey or trying to say about the nature of hell or anything any thoughts any comments about what's going on yes in terms with the devil and they are like good buddies almost like there's a brotherhood there yeah so so what the devils are saying is that you've been here before uh we know you but we're still at maglan and dante

Yes? Virgil is the master of outer hell, not inner hell. Okay. Because he stops at this, right? So he's, even he doesn't have authority to say who goes in and out of the core. Okay. What else? Yes? My question, I have a question is, why do the angels call Dante a madman or reckless for entering the realm of the dead without dying?

Like why do they call him a madman? Would you, what are you going to hell? No. Yeah. Right? It's like, what are you doing here, man? You're still alive and you choose to walk among us? Are you crazy?

Okay, that's what they're saying. Yes? Love that he has sent Beatrice to heaven. So he's someone with love, so he shouldn't be where the demons are. And he still has reverence for God, I guess, a little bit. So the demons think that he doesn't belong there? Like what they can see? Well, they tell him he doesn't belong there because there's a body.

He's still alive, right? They don't really know about Beatrice. They don't really know about God. They don't care. Right. So what's going on here? Anyone else? They're saying that Virgil and Dante are different.

So Virgil can go into this place, but Dante can't. Good. Okay. So it's clearly the difference between Virgil and Dante. Dante is a stranger to this world. Virgil is very familiar to this world. Virgil belongs here. So that's implanting an idea in the reader.

Like Virgil really belongs here. He's very intimate here. He's probably very happy here. Yes. And this helps us explain why. Ultimately, he just does not go to heaven. When Dante takes Donny into proletary, at the very top of purgatory, he has an opportunity to ascend to heaven.

He chooses not to go. He chooses rather to just go back home to limbo. What else? Yes? Yeah, I ask him a question. Why Donny just has to go to hell? I mean, it's just a virtual who just lead him to the hell or it's done he wants him. He is in hell because there's no other path to heaven, right?

He tried these other paths that were blocked by these beasts. So, so Virgil is like, well, we could try to fight these bees, but we probably won't win. so let's just go another way, let's just go into hell, and then we'll ascend to heaven for that way. Okay, so this is the only path to heaven. Okay. What is the nature of people in hell? Why, what does sin do to people? And why would that, so why sin bad, yeah?

The people in hell like to control? So what do they do always? They boss people around. And so what happens? They gatekeep. They gatekeep and what happens? They fight amongst themselves, do you understand? Okay.

So this is a metaphor for what is happening in Italy right now. Why are there so many different factions in Italy fighting each other? Why can't they get along, right? They know each other. They're probably born in the same family, but they're always fighting with each other. And it's the ego driven by sin, right? by their gluttony, by their lust, by their greed, by their anger. That's the issue in hell, and therefore there can be no smooth path in hell.

There can be no unity in hell. They just have to fight each other all the time. Okay? So what's the only way for Virgil and Dante to get out of this? Those demons won't let them in. That's just a nature of hell. People don't get along. They fight all the time.

They geek keep. They are very territorial. I think Virgil will fight his way in. Good luck, Virgil, you're fighting an army of demons, yeah? Bripe them. What do you think the first thing that Virgil tried to do was? Probably bribe them, right? They had a proper conversation. You can imagine all the things that Virgil tried to tell them, right?

Like bribing and all that didn't work. So is there any solution? Yes? Dante and Virgil would need to argue with each other and maybe fight to show they're a part of this hell thing. That's interesting, but that's not how these things work. Because again, these people are gatekeeping, they're territorial, right? So they're like, we don't care, don't belong here, we can show access. Right? So what's the only path forward now?

Are they able to resolve this conflict by themselves? No, okay? So God has intervened now, right? Okay? All right, let's keep on going. Canto nine. The color cowardice displayed in me when I saw that my guide was driven back made him more quickly mask his own new power. So he's very disappointed. He was not able to convince the demons. Okay, keep on going? He stood alert like an attentive listener because his eyes could hardly journey far across the black air and the heavy fog. We have to win this battle. He became he became. He became. if not but one so great had offered help, how slow that someone's coming to see me. But I saw well enough how he had covered his first words with the words that followed after,

so different from what he had said before. Nevertheless, his speech made me afraid because I drew out from his broken phrase a meaning worse perhaps than he'd intended. Does anyone from the first circle, one whose only punishment is crippled hope, ever descend so deep in the sad hollow? That was my question, and he, answered so. It is quite rare for one of us to go along the way that I have taken now, but I in truth have been here once before. That savage witch Eryctho, she who called the shades

back to their body, summoned me. My flesh had not been long stripped off when she had me to send through all the rings of hell to draw spirit back from Judas' circle. That is the deepest and the darkest place, the farthest from the heaven that girds all. So rest assured, I know the pathway well. The swamp that breathes and breathes the giant stench surrounds the city of the sorrowing, which now we cannot enter without anger.

And he said more, but I cannot remember because my eyes had wholly taken me to that high tower with the glowing summit, where at one single point there suddenly stood three infernal theories flecked with blood who had the limbs of women and their ways. But wore as girdle, snakes of deepest green,

small serpents and horned vipers formed their hairs, and these were used to bind their bestial temples. And he who knew these handmaids well they served the queen of never-ending lamentation, said, look at the ferocious Irnese. That is Magera on the left, and he who weeps upon the right, that is electo, to syphonies between them. He was done. Each fury tore her breast with talent nails, each with her palms, beat on herself and wailed so loud that I in fear drew near the poet. Just let Medusa come, then we shall turn him into stone. They all cried, looking down, we should have punished Theseus' assault. Turn round and keep your eyes shut fast, for should the Gorgon show herself and you behold her,

never again would you return above, my master said. And he himself turned me around and not content with just my hand. used his as well to cover up my eyes. Oh, you possessed of sturdy intellects observed the teaching that is hidden here beneath the veiled verse is so obscure. And now across the turbid waves, they're past a riboantic frockets,

hoard sound enough to make both of the shorelines quake. A sound no other than a winds when wild because it must contend with warmer currents. It strikes against the forest without let. Shattering beatings, down, bearing off branches as moves proudly, clouds of dust before it, and puts to flight both animals and shepherds. He feed my eyes and said, Now let your optic nerve turn directly toward that ancient foam.

There were the mist as thickest and most accrued. As frogs confronted by their enemy, the snake will scatter underwater till each hunches in a heap along the bottom. So did the thousand ruined souls I saw take flight before a figure crossing sticks, who walked as if on land and with dry souls. He thrust away the thick air from his face, waving his left hand frequently before him, that seemed the only task that wearied him.

I knew well he was heaven's messenger, and I turned around my master, and he made a sign that I be still and bow before him. How full of high disdain he seemed to me, he came up to the gate, and with a wand, he opened it, for there was no resistance. Oh, you cast out of heaven, and hated crowd were his first words upon that horrid threshold.

Why do you harbor this presumptuousness? Why are you so reluctant to endure that will whose aim can never be cut short, and which so often add into your hurts? What good is it to thrust against the fates? You're surbress, if you remember well, for that had both his throat and chin stripped clean. At that he turned and took the filthy road and did not speak to. us but had the look of one who is obsessed by other cares, then those that press and

not those before him, and we moved forward on into the city. In safety, having heard his holy words, we made our way inside without a struggle, and I who wanted so much to observe the state of things that such a fortress guarded, as soon as I had entered, looked about. I saw on every side a spreading plane of lamentation and atrocious pain, just as at Arl, where Rome becomes a marsh, just as at Pola, near Cronero's Gulf, that closes Italy and bates its borders. The sepulchres make all the plain uneven, so they did here on every side, except that here

the sepulchers were much more harsh. For flames were scattered through the tombs, and these had kindled all of them to glow in heat. No artisan could ask for a hotter iron. The lid of every tomb was lifted up and from each tomb such sorry cries arose as could come only from the sad and hurt. And I, Master, who can these people be buried in great chests of stone like these must speak by way of sighs in agony? And he to me, here are our heretics and those who followed them from every sect. Those tombs are much more crowded than you think.

Here like, like has been unspulchered with like. Some monuments are heated more, some less, and then he turned around and to his right, we passed between the torments and high walls. Okay, so Virgil and Donny cannot pass into this, and in fact there are furies and Medusa who threaten them, okay? So what saves them is the arrival of an angel who forces this to be opened, and the demons flee.

How does Virgil feel about this? How does he feel? You're in trouble. You can't suffer a problem. God says an angel to help you. How would you feel? Embarrassed. When angel comes and saves you, you feel embarrassed?

Well, so Virgil is supposed to be, I really know his way around hell. Yes. and be buds with everyone and have control. But here it's something that he can't do. So it's kind of embarrassing that he couldn't do that completely on his own. And so he's embarrassed, right? So what does this tell us about Virgil?

He has an ego. Yeah, he's very proud. Does that make sense? Because if any of us were in trouble, right? And we pray to God, please come save us. An angel comes and saves us, we'd be eternally grateful, right? We'd be like, oh, wow, I would now dedicate myself to loving God for the rest of my life, and I will spread this message, and Virgil's like, and what does Virgil say when the angel arrives?

What does he say and do? What does he say and do? If an angel came and saved you, what's the least you can say? Thank you. Thank you, man. Does Virgil do this? He doesn't do anything. He doesn't say anything, okay?

Meaning he's tough and this is telling us he's not actually happy about any of this Right? Does that make sense? He's not happy about this. Yeah the problem is solved He couldn't get through the gates of this and the angel came to help him out but he's not happy about any of this because Virgil is first and foremost obsessed with control his ego his pride right he wants to be the top dog. He wants to be one in charge He wants to be the hero. And so this is very embarrassing for Virgil. Okay, so he's putting his own feelings before the larger mission of getting Dante to heaven. Right? Because if you are really focused on the mission and there's an angel who opens the gates,

what do you say to this angel? And if you were really focused on the mission, if you really wanted Dante, to ascend to heaven and an angel has come and saved you, what would you say to him? You would say thank you first of all and like what else? Yeah man. Hey, hey, you're going to heaven, right? Hey, take the honey with you.

Right? Look, seriously, you came over with heaven. You have to go back, just take down it with you. Problem solved. I'm doing my mission. Does that make sense? The fact that he doesn't say thank you, the fact that he doesn't even ask the angel,

for more help suggests that Virgil first and foremost cares about his ego, right? He wants to be the one to take Dante throughout hell. Has he, has Dante, how well does Virgil know hell? How well does Virgil know hell? Very well. Like how well? Has he been everywhere in hell? Has he been into the deepest, darkest areas of hell?

Yes, even to Satan, do you understand? understand okay so he knows hell very very well okay so he knows how to traverse hell and he himself has said that he's been to every part of hell even even the deepest darkest circle of hell all right so again this is making us wonder who virtual is what his motivations are and what he ultimately has planned for Dante. Okay, and any questions? Okay, so we are now at the halfway point of our seminar, okay?

So this is day six, we start day seven tomorrow. We will need to go a bit faster, so for homework, again, please reread what we've read, okay, so you understand what's going on. what's going on but also like there are lots of like good short videos on YouTube that introduced inferno because it's a it's a very simple section as compared with paradise okay paradise is hard that's why we have spent a time in paradise but in furno it's actually pretty simple okay so make sure like you do learn about inferno okay yes there reason why I do feel you know

going from paradise to inferno Infernal, it's much more, I wouldn't call it approachable, but it's easier to kind of go through and kind of follow the story as opposed to the concepts that you have to grasp in paradise. Yes, right. Literature-wise, is there like intended that way? I think it is because remember, what Donnell will do is first published the infernal, okay? And at this time in history, Donne is not a well-known person. He's not a very powerful person, right? So he wants to make sure that, first of all,

whatever he writes is appealing, right? That people will want to read it and buy the manuscript, but also he's trying to establish himself in a larger poetic tradition, right? And that means using famous people like Virgil, right? So like if it's like Dante in hell, like who cares, right? But it's like Virgil taking Dante in hell, that's an actually interesting cell to people. Okay. So for him, it's like, you know, how does he get people interested in a story he's trying to convey?

And that's why, as you point out, the story in inferno, it's much more interesting. It's much more visual than paradise. But ultimately, he wants us, he wants to take us all to paradise. And to do that, you first need to establish a really compelling story, okay, with really famous people. Okay, so, and honestly, this is why in universities, it's mainly infernal that's taught and not paradise. Okay, because paradise, it's actually much more, it's really philosophy, as opposed to literature, whereas Inferno, it's very literary, okay? It's a great story. characters, it's very visual, it's very funny, it's very interesting.

Okay, so thank you for that. But again, we're trying to really understand Dante's cosmology. Okay, yes? Dante's Inferno reminds me a lot of the Chinese novel Journey to the West, Xiuji. Okay. In the way that it's, first of all, they're both a journey. Second of all, they both meet monsters and demons and angels and myth, mythic creatures. And third of all, they have a very big impact on the society and the culture, and they're both really old.

Yeah. Like, for example, the way that Journey to the West is interesting to read because, you know, they're fighting demons and they're going on a journey. It's in a similar way, Inferno is interesting to read because, you know, there's this master, he's bringing this other person on a journey, and they're trying to get to a destination. Yeah. No, you're actually right in that infernal, there's much more of a narrative angle to it, right? Whereas in paradise, it's basically just philosophy. Yes? Yeah, but there's a very big difference.

The monster in the Western journey, they are all being protected by the god, by the, you know, some goddess. But in the, you know, infernal, we can see that it's impossible, right? because demons or angel they are quite a different world they can't just take into over each other but i think maybe that is quite quite different yeah okay all right all right any other more questions or comments okay all right so to summarize um we need to go very fast for the last um half of this seminar and so you will have to do a lot more work okay so we'll review what we learned so far And on YouTube, there are lots of tutorials, lots of like good intro videos that introduce to you inferno, okay? As well as, so, so let's, yeah, so just make sure you understand and prepare.

And this will allow for much richer discussion, okay? And again, inferno is not that hard to understand as compared with paradise. And that's why I hope that you're more able to contribute individually to, it. So the game plan for the last half of this seminar is for us to imagine that each and every one of us will leave the seminar and we will teach it to someone else, okay? It could be your students because your teachers, but it could also be your friend, it'll also be your child, it'll also be your mother, okay? And it doesn't matter, okay? But imagine yourself after you leave the seminar teaching it to someone that you love. And what I'm going to do is rather this focus too much on the literally meaning of the text because we've done Paradise, which is the hardest, and so everything else that follows should

be pretty simple. What I'm going to focus more on is giving you the tools to expand your imagination as well as to teach others, okay? That's why I wanted to do compare contrast today. Compare contrast is one most effective tools that you can use so that we can just say, okay well to understand why Wayne is such an interesting punishment let's feel of other punishments right okay so I'll be doing more of these pedagogical techniques as we go along okay but for me to do that we have to stay focused on the task at hand okay

and so come in with the spirit like I'm not here to debate you I'm not here to argue you I'm here to learn how to teach this to others okay so that's the last half of our seminar okay we are we clear we've done the hardest part we've done paradise we now know exactly what this poem is trying to do we have a good conception now our goal is to teach you to others all right okay I'll see everyone tomorrow